So I just got off the phone with the service department at Lithia Mazda, in California. I asked the service representative whether, like some other people on this forum at other dealerships (see this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=235858#post235858)), I could get a reflash on my ECU just to capture all the latest technical updates (TSBs).

He checked with Mazda NA, then called me back and apologized politely, but said Mazda does not authorize its dealerships to provide this service. They offer reflashes only for specific warranty problems, and then the reflashes are limited to the problem area itself.

Does this make sense? Why don't they reflash the entire ECU to avoid future warranty problems? Why don't they keep one current software version for the whole car and update it continually? I'm confused and a bit irritated, but perhaps I'm being unreasonable.

In any event, I asked him to check whether there is a firmware update available for my HVAC system, which (like others) blows hot air from the vents, even on cold days. He'll get back to me on that question.

I'm not blaming the dealership here, but I am annoyed with Mazda NA.

What are you trying to get a re-flash for? They aren't going to change the A/F ratio or anything else unless, there is something they will admit is wrong. When you re-flash the ECU there is a slight (as I understand it very slight) possiblity that the e-prom can get fried. That and re-flashing the ECU costs man hours. If it was done all the time the dealerships would be happy but we would be eating Mazda's profits. I for one think Mazda should make money on the car since that is how they will continue to keep it in production.

Good questions; good points. However, I had the (erroneous?) impression that they could jack into my car under the steering wheel and reflash the ECU in a few minutes. Maybe I'm wrong. And certainly frying the computer would bite.

My desire for a reflash may be a bit too compulsive, but I figure if I get in there maybe twice a year and get the latest firmware, I can get my HVAC system, oil pressure sensor warnings (although no; I haven't had that problem), etc., all dialed in better.

I'm not expecting different fuel or timing curves; I'm afraid that's pie in the sky at this point. Instead, it's a form of basic, preventive maintenance that could be, I thought, relatively cheap and painless. And, let me be childish here, but if I know that some other 8s out there have better software, then dammit, I want it, too, at least while I'm under warranty in my shiny new car.

Anyway, you've given something to think about, and I thank you, but what about my other question: Do they really update only the problem part of the code for a given TSB? Why don't they keep one current software version for the whole car? TIA.

There does seem to be a lot of inconsistant information being given to us by different service depts. If there is a update for a know issue, you should get it. The AC for instance.

They send dealers weekly updates, of course this covers both ford and mazda products and all the models. This doesn't mean that there is an update for our 8's every week. Mine will be checked Sat. to see if it is needed. That is my story and I am sticking to it :) your mileage may vary..............

Hard8, my dealer says it is a complete reflash and they don't always know what all has been changed or fixed. He said the length of the codes would take a long time to go thru and examine for changes.

i tried to get the reflash in the TSB http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-024-03.html but the dealer said did your check engine light go on? i said no. he said they cant reflash it until it does. i showed him the tsb for the engine cover grommets http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-001-04.html and again he said they had to be loose or missing. i asked him about the hotter plugs to help with flooding http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/flash_rf04-04.html and he said it has to flood first.

OK, now this is what I had thought: It might be easier and cheaper for them to fix these problems (CEL, etc.) BEFORE they occur, with a reflash.

I guess how I'll handle it is like this: I'll come up with a bona fide justification for a reflash (my hot vent air, perhaps?) and hope the reflash captures every other TSB, too. I hope so, anyway.

They do reflash through the OBDII connector under the dash. So far, we think the reflashes have been for sensor desensing (too many error lights). I wouldn't get one unless you have a problem. I suspect the HVAC mods. will be physical (modified ducting).

"In any event, I asked him to check whether there is a firmware update available for my HVAC system"
Your ECU has nothing to do with your A/C blowing hot air with the A/C off. This is a physical problem not a electronic control issue. I believe the problem with the A/C is that they designed it to be auto electronic controled which means the A/C would be on practically all the time. If it is 65 deg you will get out 78 deg air without the A/C on.
The ECU is for engine operation only.

Cool; thanks. I'd love to get my vents working properly again. The ECU seemed unrelated to the HVAC to me, too, but I thought I'd seen a message here mentioning it as a reflash issue. I dunno.

Originally posted by RX-GR8
i tried to get the reflash in the TSB http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-024-03.html but the dealer said did your check engine light go on? i said no. he said they cant reflash it until it does. i showed him the tsb for the engine cover grommets http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-001-04.html and again he said they had to be loose or missing. i asked him about the hotter plugs to help with flooding http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/flash_rf04-04.html and he said it has to flood first.

My experience with computers and software has been... if it ain't broke don't fix it. I'm betting it's a combination of this and cost savings that fuels this policy...

I'm beginning to see the light here. BTW, does anyone have a TSB no. for the HVAC problem ASAP? TIA and TTFN.

I've not had any problems so far, but I had my dealer check with the Mazda rep and she said they would swap plugs if I wanted. Rep also said "If you have no flooding problem, I wouldn't worry about it."
So I'm taking the "If it's not broke, don't fix it approach".

Originally posted by JD32
I've not had any problems so far, but I had my dealer check with the Mazda rep and she said they would swap plugs if I wanted. Rep also said "If you have no flooding problem, I wouldn't worry about it."
So I'm taking the "If it's not broke, don't fix it approach".

i'm sure if i pressed the issue i could get the plugs too but i'll leave well enough alone.

Don't forget that 'hotter' plugs don't affect engine flooding.....

'Cold' plugs run cooler under heavy use, 'hot' plugs burn off deposits from slow around town low rev driving.

Hot or cold plugs would have zero effect on flooding, because they don't fire any different when wet, they don't fire at all.....
.
.
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doc

good point doc

Originally posted by RX-GR8
i tried to get the reflash in the TSB http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-024-03.html but the dealer said did your check engine light go on? i said no. he said they cant reflash it until it does. i showed him the tsb for the engine cover grommets http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-001-04.html and again he said they had to be loose or missing. i asked him about the hotter plugs to help with flooding http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/flash_rf04-04.html and he said it has to flood first.

In that case....

"Yes, the light went on last week"
"It flooded twice already"
"Hmmm.... I noticed those grommets all popped out"

Yeah, that's the ticket :p

Actually I wouldn't change the plugs just for the heck of it. Hotter plugs can cause problems too. There are sites that explain how to evaluate plugs by visual inspection. That's probably a better way to decide if you want the hotter ones.

Doctorr is correct in Mazda's "official" world about the hot plugs. Mazda's not suggesting that the new plugs are to help with flooded vehicles, but another member did tell me that a Mazda NA person told him in an email that the plugs were being developed as a possible "fix" for flooding problems. I asked my service guy about the plugs and he told me that they were too expensive... not that they wouldn't help with flooding. I also read that the hot plugs are in short supply, so I'm thinking its possible that the plugs may actually be a "fix," but Mazda's not ready to implement it, but I digress...

I also agree with Japan8; the ECU flashes are probably just not being done by dealerships because they don't see an upside in doing it. Mazda knows what the firmware upgrades are supposed to do, and if you don't complain about the specific problem that the new firmware is designed to fix, then they feel they're asking for trouble by swapping the old for the new. The new firmware is always going to be less tested and the less they "fix" your car the less chance they can be blamed if something goes wrong. I also doubt people would feel good about paying the $20-$30 they would want to charge for a "fix" that produces no noticeable result.

Now, I always try to have the latest drivers on my computer, so I totally get where people are coming from in wanting the new firmware. If you are enthusiastic about your car, you want it to have the latest and greatest. Personally, I'd like the newer NAV firmware that I hear boots up with the Mazda logo... just because I think it would be nicer to have a Mazda logo show up on the screen than the current Navtech logo... but I have to acknowledge that my reasons for wanting an "upgrade" appear dumb to a service department that really only cares about making money and getting through the day.

Which brings me to something else.... what I'd like to have, but don't think I'll ever get, is a relationship with the Mazda mechanic that works on my car. I think that is really what is missing with the dealership's service departments. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of trust on this forum of the Mazda service people, and that seems to be a function of the size of their operations. Personal service just isn't there. Free coffee, nice waiting rooms, lots of cheerful literature and "satisfaction surveys" out the wazzoo isn't going to replace personal service. Where's Goober when you need him? Instead, we get Mr. Goodwrench (http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/Advertising.html) . Goober would upgrade your ECU, just because you asked...

http://www.tvacres.com/images/pyle_goober1.jpg

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Which brings me to something else.... what I'd like to have, but don't think I'll ever get, is a relationship with the Mazda mechanic that works on my car. I think that is really what is missing with the dealership's service departments. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of trust on this forum of the Mazda service people, and that seems to be a function of the size of their operations. Personal service just isn't there. Free coffee, nice waiting rooms, lots of cheerful literature and "satisfaction surveys" out the wazzoo isn't going to replace personal service. Where's Goober when you need him? Instead, we get Mr. Goodwrench. Goober would upgrade your ECU, just because you asked...[

i agree. i took my car in today for the 5000 mile service and i just felt so unsure about the whole situation. it's basically just an oil change but i had just gotten the oil pan replaced for the tsb a few weeks ago and there was some confusion about what viscosity oil was used because the receipt said 5w30 and today i mentioned that and they said its been taken care of. well their idea of taking care of it is to just put 5 quarts of oil added and not metnion the viscosity on the receipt. i was in a hurry to get back to work so i forgot to ask if 5w20 was even used. frankly i dont even know with any certainy if the oil pan was ever replaced i mean how would i know unless i crawled under the car. i never felt this way with any other service department.

EDIT i know the oil was changed because there is a new oil filter on.

What you have to remember is that flashing the ECU is just that - the dealer has to erase and reprogram the ECU flash memory, and if anything goes wrong, they literally have to replace the ECU.

To put it in PC terms, this isn't like updating drivers, but rather it is (exactly) like updating your BIOS; if something goes wrong, you have an expensive piece of modern art until you can replace the ICs containing the BIOS...

Actually, reflashing is not that dangerous (in a PC BIOS).
All flash memories have 2 regions.
One is a Right Once area, the other is reprogrammable.
The Right once area is where the OEM puts the initial Boot Code, and the flash code to reprogram the other area (plus verify the signature of the image you are trying to flash.

So, even if an error happened (such as power loss) during a BIOS update, there is allways enough code in the flash to boot back to the flash utility (just not boot a full OS).

That way you can also revert to an older BIOS version if there is a bug in the one you just installed.

That's good to hear.

I'm glad that Microsoft didn't design it or who knows what could happen?

Originally posted by Reeko
Actually, reflashing is not that dangerous (in a PC BIOS).
All flash memories have 2 regions.
One is a Right Once area, the other is reprogrammable.
The Right once area is where the OEM puts the initial Boot Code, and the flash code to reprogram the other area (plus verify the signature of the image you are trying to flash.
This is definitely not true for all flash memory; I've been on the wrong end more than once. :(

This is all very educational for me. I guess I'm just in the habit of exploiting firmware updates whenever I can. For example, I simply download the latest firmware for free from the Canon web site and upload it to my digital SLR. And I would occasionally upgrade the chip in my Miata's Link ECU.

As I see it, in the future, the more motivated among us should be able to download the firmware off the manufacturer website and reflash our cars at home. However, I doubt that will happen.

Canzoomer had mentioned that it could be a possiblity with his unit somewhere in the near future.

I have computerized telescopes that have firmware upgrades available every few months or so. We do have the technology...

I suspect it will be only third-party providers. The car manufacturers won't want people hacking the codes, erasing fault codes, defeating emissions sensors, etc. Federal or state emissions laws could also come into play. Still, others will do what they can, to work around these obstacles.

Originally posted by BillK
This is definitely not true for all flash memory; I've been on the wrong end more than once. :(

OK, I was really talking in the context of flash in PCs.
Flash memory for PCs (for system BIOS) all have a protected Boot Block. It is the first address that gets fetched by a CPU on reset.

Correct that not all flash has this, but flash that is used for a processor to boot from generally does. Application flash (add in cards etc, don't).

Regarding firmware updates- I have a MOmitsu v880 DVD player from China that upconverts to High definition and plays out digitally through DVI. The company (Manowa) updates it's firmware what seems like every month- they add features, compatibility- fix probelms with DVD titles skipping, etc. You just download, burn on a CDR and boot up in the player and flash. If anyone has a projector or plasma with DVI in I high suggest this unit- DVD's look very close to Hi def once they are upscaled.

Originally posted by Reeko
OK, I was really talking in the context of flash in PCs.
Flash memory for PCs (for system BIOS) all have a protected Boot Block. It is the first address that gets fetched by a CPU on reset.

Correct that not all flash has this, but flash that is used for a processor to boot from generally does. Application flash (add in cards etc, don't).

Not all PC's work this way. I have a Laptop PC and the power system is controlled by the BIOS. The power button, battery, charging system and related are all somehow controlled by the BIOS. So this one time I was reflashing it to the latest version and bad luck hit in the form of a power shortage. Now nothing worked on the PC since not even the power button would respond and to top it off the BIOS chip wasn't removable so I had to send the complete motherboard in for repairs. They had to remove the old chip and SOLDER a new one in place.

I just got back from having my oil pan replaced, and got a reflash to the current version. Pretty neat how its done, takes about 10 minutes using the newest dealer firmware that just came out.

I had 3 'issues' with mine that were noted after the update. the oil pan sensor, the AC cycling, and something to do with temp sensors for the thermostat, and even something to do with power that he hadn't seen before.

He also said that many service depts may be intimidated to do the updates, or just plain lazy to keep up with them weekly. His take on it is if it can help prevent us from having problems why not do it. And furthermore, if Mazda spent the time and money to make the updates, do it, thats what they are for!!!!

If anybody want a dealer that actually is looking out after our best interest, pm me and I'll give you his name and #.

Oh yea, he also gave me a 'gift' that I'll take a pic of and post in the photo section.

I got the reflash update with no problem..just shy of 100,000. Maybe it was no problem because they have had my car for everything under the sun!

I got the reflash update with no problem..just shy of 100,000. Maybe it was no problem because they have had my car for everything under the sun!

dude ... check the date of your last post b4 you making your next post.

Seriously, what's the deal with all of the thread revivals recently?

noobs

dude ... check the date of your last post b4 you making your next post.

:lol2: I think its a Chick ;)

I had the same problem at a dealer here in orlando. One day my car was running like pure shi* I just moved from pa and thought maybe it was the heat so i went tothe dealer and wanted my reflash he saide it had to b throwing a code (CEL) to do anytibng. I was pissed luckily i figured out it was water in my gas (damn race trac gas) but they said it had to have a cel to deo anyting

:lol2: I think its a Chick ;)

Is there a term for female ? I mean ... Dude ... :lol:

Holy thread revival Batman

holy thread necropsy ftl.

I also was denied this part when I asked the dealer specifically to perform the latest flash, they only did the vacuum check of the TSB that the flash update is a part of. I specifically wanted it because, so far as I can tell, the last flash update my car got was on 8 October, 2005. I wanted to get the improvement on the MOP settings that the latest flash is supposed to have.

Also, does anyone know what this Mazda part number is for: N320-18881-R

for any noobs out there who can't get a flash under warranty - look into getting the accessport from mazdamaniac. The maps he supplies are with the latest flash from mazda, so you will get the new settings, plus higher omp flow, better power, etc.

you guys are too much. if they'd created a new thread there would've been an onslaught of GO SEARCH N00B responses!

Short of genius n00bs simply can't win here.

Now my 2 cents on topic. It's my understanding that the eprom in our ECU is only good for about 100 or so flashes so I could see why Mazda would limit flashing. In today's high-tech flash savy world I find this hard to believe, but you never know with the propreitary way in which car makers string stuff together.

Fortunately, we've got the AP that gets around that limitation :) I say ditch Mazda, buy an AP, wait for Street Tuner, and/or find a good tuner like Jeff (MazdaManaic).

+1 on getting Jeff to inject his magic into your car. You get enough guys together and you can dyno and tune your car for under 200 bucks.. not counting the cost of the AP. A pretty sweet deal for something that makes the single biggest improvement to any 8.

How do you figure the AP gets around the EPROM flashing limitation ?? :)

What do you think it's flashing......

OH...and a hundred flash limit is unlikely.....

Could be 10 or 1000... sorta an electronics crapshoot :lol:

There is no reason for the dealer to deny you this. I went down to my dealer here in OKC and asked him to check and see if I had the latest flash, since rumour has it that Canada (where I bought the car) didn't get the last one.

Absolutely no problem. He just plugged in his laptop and confirmed my suspicion, flashed the memory and sent me on my merry way. 5 minutes for the whole operation tops. I was literally standing there watching him do it.

I'm not sure on the technical details of the RX-8 in this regard, but if I were working for Mazda designing these things I would use EEPROM for the updateable firmware (like any other electronic device) and keep a backup block of ROM(not programmable in any way) with the factory settings so that retarded dealers couldn't go around bricking people's cars and have everyone get mad, or in the rare event that a flash fails you can always just try again. That would be the smart thing to do. In computing many motherboard companies now do this to keep overclocking enthusiasts from destroying their motherboards. Is it what Mazda has done? I don't know.

If it's not, and there's literally only the one EEPROM, then I could see why the dealer would be reluctant. 20 bucks says your dealer is just a retarded jerk.

How do you figure the AP gets around the EPROM flashing limitation ?? :)

What do you think it's flashing......

OH...and a hundred flash limit is unlikely.....

Could be 10 or 1000... sorta an electronics crapshoot :lol:

I'm well over 300 at this point, including several intentional brickings. I don't think anyone out there is going to need to hit it that many times, so the issue is moot.

How do you figure the AP gets around the EPROM flashing limitation ?? :)

What do you think it's flashing......

OH...and a hundred flash limit is unlikely.....

Could be 10 or 1000... sorta an electronics crapshoot :lol:

The maps get flashed to different area of the ECU, like NOVRAM or some such. It's well documented, as is Mazda's claim of the 100 or so flash limitation.

ShellDude:


I hate to tell you...but the flash Mazda does...and the AP flash are flashing the same area.......the data is different...but the area is the same..hence the same limits.

Flsh limits are very arbitrary...depending on the criteria chosen in the testing used.

MM is correct...it is basically a moot point in this application......

Weren't the last couple of flashes mandatory for all? Next to last (4206f) was a recall. If I recall correctly, the latest (MSP16) was somewhere between a recall and a TSB that said "Dealer, if you get your hooks on an RX-8, reflash it."

So why would any policy of no free reflashes still be in effect?

Ken

ShellDude:


I hate to tell you...but the flash Mazda does...and the AP flash are flashing the same area.......the data is different...but the area is the same..hence the same limits.

Flsh limits are very arbitrary...depending on the criteria chosen in the testing used.

MM is correct...it is basically a moot point in this application......

Why would you hate to tell me? It's not like you're letting me down or anything. Switching maps via my AP is definitely a different process than flashing my ECU -- from a time and functional perspective, period.

Due to limitations within the ECU's flash memory, one can only successfully reprogram it approximately 100 times. In response to this challenge, our engineers developed a LIMITLESS Map Switching system. This means you can switch between maps as often as you like quickly, easily, and without ever reducing the life of your ECU's flash memory.

I recognize a lot of what we read is marketing, but "limitless" flashes is one of its selling points, and was heralded as a break-through.

I hate to say that we've taken this thread OT. How about that? Not that it really matters though as it was probably 50 pages back a week ago :lol:

Why would you hate to tell me? It's not like you're letting me down or anything. Switching maps via my AP is definitely a different process than flashing my ECU -- from a time and functional perspective, period.



I recognize a lot of what we read is marketing, but "limitless" flashes is one of its selling points, and was heralded as a break-through.

I hate to say that we've taken this thread OT. How about that? Not that it really matters though as it was probably 50 pages back a week ago :lol:

I think it has something to do with "Mazda's typical bullshit"

What kind of Flash memory these days can only flash 100 times?

ok fine Lets assume that the ECU EPROM came from 2002. but even EPROMs in 2002 can rewrite itself over 10000 times without errors. Unless they're using EPRoms from 1998 or something, then yeah its about 100 times.

aye, I'm with ya ... one of my first comments was that it made no sense to me as I know a little bit about hardware and software development and integraiton. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it was for the same reason we're told not to use synthetic oil.

I would like to know more about the COBB map programming side of it though. What is so different about the AP's maps that COBB is able to say "limitless" if they're not stored elsewhere?