I just did a search and cannot find any good source for a new dash kit to replace the stock. I am considering getting together with someone and manufacturing a couple of different types for those of us who are looking to replace the stock system. I have some ideas and I want to get some feedback. How many people are interested and how much would you be willing to pay for quality? I would like this to be bolt on and the types I want to develop would stay with the theme of the car.

What is a faceplate? What are you referring to? Please advise

Mark

The center console around the stock head unit. Where you cd's, radio, etc. are housed. I am thinking about making a plate to work with an after market deck. That way we don't have to loose the ambience of the car just to get a better sound system.

need to get started...several of us that used to work in custom shops: myself, rotarygod and whomever else...are planning/starting on this as well...

I already have the molds finished I just have to wait for a warmer day since the "plastic" doesn't harden well below 45F...wife doesn't like the smell of it so i can't use the heated garage and my workshop is not heated...yet...

XeRo,

I just wanted to do it out of frustration. I am looking for one that can be mass produced. It sounds like that is what you are doing and if so that is fine for me. As you get it done send me pics and let me know how much you are looking for wholesale and retail. Please P/M me the info. Thanks.

yeh i know that's purely why i'm doing it...not so much to make a profit...it's been several years since I have done this so I had to dig out all my old stuff and dust everything off...cold weather doesn't help the setting process plus i botched the first mold due to loosening the clamps holding the form a little to early...oops..

I'm not sure if I'll MASS produce anything being that i have NO time as it is...what I might do is if I get the correct fitment I am looking for, (im making several different designs), is make a few for people that are interested than sell the design...i'm not sure yet..i'm quite a ways from getting to that point though...

but believe me i am just as frustrated...

XeRo,

Let me know since I am not only interested in the products but I might look into the designs as well. I am considering the possibility of getting into distribution again. I had an MR2 club in Portland that I started to offer the locals discounts and new items for the cars. I would like to do the same for the RX-8. All quality stuff of course.

Originally posted by XeRo
need to get started...several of us that used to work in custom shops: myself, rotarygod and whomever else...are planning/starting on this as well...

I already have the molds finished I just have to wait for a warmer day since the "plastic" doesn't harden well below 45F...wife doesn't like the smell of it so i can't use the heated garage and my workshop is not heated...yet...

XeRo,

Here ya go! (http://www.heatersplus.com/iuh.htm) :)

When you do make them make some out of the silver gray carbon fiber!

I work in a car stereo installation shop in Northern Virginia. As far as I know Metra, a very large dash kit company, is making a dash kit for this vehicle. They made a kit for the new Honda Accord which is pretty similar to the RX-8. Yes the Accord does not have the display up top, but the problem of a lack of a DIN opening and themostat controls in close proximity to the radio are traits shared by both vehicles. This dash kit will not be cheap, and it won't be available for a few months, but it will look very factory, and will be easy to install.

DJ Freon,

What I am talking about is a dash kit that is as nice or nicer than most custom work. The idea is to create one that keeps the cars interior look and asthetics as well as another similiar kit for maybe the carbon fiber junkies. Not the typical flat black $8-30 kit. I am not saying that Metra doesn't do this kind of work and I didn't see a link so that I can check it out. I am talking about custom work for less cost because we will mass produce it. So all the R&D doesn't fall on idividual car owners for each one.

I still haven't heard from anyone who would be interested in purchasing a kit like this. I know your out there and I'm not the only one so respond. Otherwise I will just have it made for myself.

Originally posted by 93rdcurrent
DJ Freon,

What I am talking about is a dash kit that is as nice or nicer than most custom work. The idea is to create one that keeps the cars interior look and asthetics as well as another similiar kit for maybe the carbon fiber junkies. Not the typical flat black $8-30 kit. I am not saying that Metra doesn't do this kind of work and I didn't see a link so that I can check it out. I am talking about custom work for less cost because we will mass produce it. So all the R&D doesn't fall on idividual car owners for each one.

I still haven't heard from anyone who would be interested in purchasing a kit like this. I know your out there and I'm not the only one so respond. Otherwise I will just have it made for myself.

Just so you know the dash kit they will be manufacturing will be on the order of $200-$400. They know that it is not easy to manufacture a dash kit that looks nice and "custom" for a car like an RX-8. The main thing is relocating all the controls for the HVAC and also bypassing the display up top so the ambient temp gauge and clock will still work. I don't know that it is abnormally hard to do so, but it is a factor in creating a kit like this. Their website is www.metraonline.com, but don't expect to see this kit for a while. They are coming out with a series of kits called the "T2 kits" that will be a lot nicer than the $15 kits that they manufacture for all the other cars on the market. The kind of work we do in our shop here is top notch, and we expect a lot out of a kit when they price it so high. We haven't seen it yet, so I'll reserve judgement until I actually see the new units. The kind of kits we build here at work are custom, so we treat them as just that. Each kit is per what the owners what. Anyways, I have to close the store, more later.

Btw, if you do end up making the kit that's awesome. I'm sure that many people will jump at the chance to replace the system that comes in the car. There are other challenges with working on that car (odd speakers sizes, etc), but I really think that it'd be a cool thing to have someone make a kit. The only option right now is to come to a shop like the one I work at and have something custom (read expensive) made for your needs. I wish you the best of luck. If I didn't work at a shop like I do, trust me, I'd jump at the opportunity to buy something like what you'd make.

I really like this type. Has anyone found something like this for sale as of yet?


http://response.jp/event/tas2004/image/gw3DSCN0003003.jpg

wow... that is incredible... but prolly a bit much for what im lookin for...

Kozlik,

It is a similar idea to what I have in mind but if you notice that is a complete custom job including the leather, etc., etc. If you look you can see that they moved the stock display over to the glove box. I want to keep it as stock as possible. No serious moving around or relocating equip.

You would pay thousands for this work and I want to keep it somewhere around $200 or so. I also want it to be bolt on.

If you could just take the stock console off and just replace it with mine that would be perfect to me. I want to minimize the cost of getting an after market deck.

I will will create a template for the stock speakers that will allow me to cut out a metal plate to mount speakers of varrying sizes in the stock holes. I have seen it done on another thread and it looks very nice. This will all be very professional I just need to get more feedback that this is what people want. I have received to positives so far which is a little disappointing after all the negative comments I have read about the stock system be a pain in the butt. If I were to do this for 5 people it would have to be more expensive than if I was doing this for 50 or more. Did I need to make this a poll? I thought everyone was sick of polls ;) .

Yup, that "Woo Factory" thing is pretty nice. I especially like the pop out screen AND the gauge package above. Too bad they didn't do it in black...

I don't like the 1DIN popout LCD... they look like gaudy aftermarket... to me and they block the a/c vents. To each his own I suppose.

I agree with Omicron on the black thing... that white is a bit loud...

The hard part that i have run into is finding away to incorporate the top LED panel, I know people will want to retain what they can on it...I have to take my dash apart again and look at how everything is or can be attached to any thing I create for a replacement...

**WHEALY**...LOL...thanks buddy!..i have one of those propane "afterburner" heaters,....but I can't use it with the fumes and stuff....i don't wanna blow myself up, that wouldn't be to cool to get on the Darwin list...weather is looking up...it was still around 47-48 this past weekend...if it would just quit raining and give me a break so I can install my vents into my workshop...(sigh)....

I am looking at making one in Carbon fiber, but I do not have a lot of experience with that one...I may have to enlist the help of my buddy that was part owner of our tuning/custom stereo shop back in the 90's...he dealt with CF more than I...

So far, I think a single DIN opening but colored to MATCH the interior aesthetics..definitely NOT white like in that photo...I have a black laquer that will match perfectly the piano black of the current console but is less likely to get the "smear effect" like the current stock one during cleaning...

To me it looks like they've stuck the dash panel in the glove box?????

I'd be happy without the guages, in black or carbon fibre, single din for a standard deck ... no screen.

I am so so so so very down with this project, and will do anything to help you guys, and I hope you can keep costs wayyyyyyyy down (please)... I have access to wholesalers of parts, so let me know if you guys need anything to be found... Here are a few of my suggestions.... Offer a touch screen control unit (very very cool IMHO)... Maybe allow ac control through the unit (so we can totally replace the dash)

my so so bad... lol I see what you guys are doing your building a face plate that will accept head units... Im still down with that, but I would love to see a matching quality and color (as close as humanly possible) and would love to keep that circle around it, I find it quite appealing actually, and I think the 150-200 dollar range is very fair...

Im really interested in a dash kit...i jsut hope it comes out soon.

alright...so far...I have a good mold finally...had to order new molding compound and the weather has been some what cooperative...it looks like the easiest way to reproduce this is going to be through replicatiing the glossy faceplate alone which was really quite simple..mold wise....i am going to try and start laying the carbon fiber this coming weekend if we get back from seeing my parents early enough...it looks as though a single DIN unit will be the only option...i made a double DIN out of playdough and it looked like $hit...it didn't keep with the schema of the center face...my dig cam is out of town with my bro on safari so i can't take any pics yet...i've asked someone at work to borrow theirs but they "keep forgetting". If push comes to shove i'll break down and buy a disposable and shoot some of what I have so far to give everyone an idea and get some feedback...later

What exactly is a DIN unit? Will you come with out with a dask kit that looks almost exactly like the current one?

Im very sorry for my ignorance, Im a newb in this area... So Id really appreciate an explination of what exactly you are trying to build

Some decks are two tiered so they take up twice the space as a single deck. Kind of like you would see in some Honda's back in the 90's. Also yoiu could use that space to install a satellite control unit for XM or Sirius radio or you could use it for a permenant install on a laser/radar detector like the Escort SRX. I had planned on going with a single DIN application as well. But that is a good question don't worry about getting flamed.

Xero,

Are you planning on painting these through an autobody shop? Another obstacle I was trying to figure out was a scratch resistant surface. Let me know how you plan on accomplishing this. I am going to open a performance supply store and I would be happy to offer these for you through my website if you are interested. P/M me and we can talk price.

I'm not going to paint the Carbon Fiber...it's black/ dark grey so it matches with the interior very well. I'm using System 2000 Epoxy Resin from one of my old suppliers and 3K, 2x2 Twill Weave Graphite Fabric...it will be fairly scratch resistant...although if you knife it up with some sharp metal you'll be able to see it...I was up late last night playing around with the designs and if people want to keep the circular design currently present it's going to look funny with the DIN opening kinda in the middle...i'm still trying to figure out how to mount it using the factory locations...i think i'm going to have to take my car apart again...

Damn.... well sorry to say if it's 1DIN then I'm out. Got a 2DIN nav/stereo/PC that has to go in that space. So it's gotta be 2Din for me... sorry... but I'm not getting an 8 for another 6-8 months or so... so does it really matter?

Japan8....i shouldn't say I won't do it...but the playdough model I had...looked pretty funny 2DIN...I will have to add some texture into the mold to change the appearance a little...i'm not saying it won't/can't be done...i'm just going to focus on single DIN first...

I understood that you probably wouldn't paint the carbon fiber version I was asking about the fiberglass. Never got the P/M... Are you interested in wholesale?

XeRo... I see. No problem at all then.. since I won't be ready for one for awhile still.

Looking forward to seeing how it comes out initially...

Oh.. what are you going to do about the clock buttons? Mount new ones in position near stock???

I would be all over a quality dash kit, $200-$300 is well worth it.

My biggest problem with this car is you can spend all the money you want on speakers, and amps, but without a decent head unit your not getting anywhere.

Originally posted by Trmaple
I would be all over a quality dash kit, $200-$300 is well worth it.

My biggest problem with this car is you can spend all the money you want on speakers, and amps, but without a decent head unit your not getting anywhere.

Yep, as long as you have to use line-level converters it's gonna suck. Granted Mine sounds MUCH better than stock, but still Sure will be nice to have a high-end head unit with 2 pairs of RCA outs.

Just for info, I'm running a HiFonics 440 to run Focal Poly-Kevlar components in the front, Infinity kappa 6X9s in the back and an Eclipse 200 pushing a single Diamond 10" sub in the trunk.

No flames on the HiFonics please, it was free :D

hehe..not flaming but kinda reminds me of the days when people would come to my shop with Majestic amps all excited about the amount of "BOOM" they're going to have...LOL....OK!...

that's cool you got a free amp...i mean it'll do and hey..it was FREE!

This is one of those things that is on my "planning to" list.

Bump

..Any news on this project or similar ones? Money's burning a hole in my pocket :)

any news on the project? anything is ready?

i'm trying...i'm trying...it's taking forever because I don't own a shop and do this full time anymore..my shop is now my workshop (which I am now adding another garage onto..again) and I am slammed at my REAL job...i haven't been getting home before 19:00 est the past 2 weeks...and I have an 8 month old and a wife that needs q-time also...sorry it's taking forever...i am looking at integrating the center "fill-in" speaker into the design now but making it a full 5.1 system...but this will be after I get the initial build done...i have to take my car apart again because I need to find a way to "mount" the mold, since it's NOT going to be a cover up..it's the REAL DEAL...i think i will have to make a plug using the back of the stock faceplate but haven't come up with an ingenious way yet...when my light bulb goes off which it is constantly illuminating with ideas i will provide more info on it....RotaryGod...stand by I may call you for an opinion or two...

Hey I'm interested in the kit, let me know when you guys finish it, I'm available via email at kbert@optonline.net.

Carefull with the ckt board behind the faceplate of the factory HU (part # FE01-66-9H0) it breaks from just looking at it and it cost $450.00 (see "custom instal with head unit!!" by kidcas). Another member and I have problems with that ckt board. The AC controls, clock setting, led display, etc. pass through this ckt board. If you go ahead with the mod for 1 or 2 din's, you will have to keep this ckt car and relocate it elsewere or find a way to replicate its functions. All the HU setting buttons (e.g. radio pre-set station buttons colck setting, etc.) are built into the ckt board. I called "Metra" and they are working on the din for the Mazda 6. I told them that the ckt card on the RX8 is no different than the 6 as far as the multi-funtions they control. They said that if so, the can accelerate the development/production for an RX8 din (6-8 months). If we can flod them with calls they may realize that there is a big demand for an aftermarket din that would keep the AC andled functions operational.

Keep us posted on your progress

I have talked to Metra concerning this multiple times and their product development team is NOT making any plans at this time or any coordinated effort to come up with a solution for our issue at hand.

That is why I have tried to focus more time on getting this done. My problem is associated costs with test fitting and construction (and deconstruction) of molds and pieces are coming out of my own pocket...and the wife is cranking down on my spending...it's rough when teachers get out for summer cause then they get bored and come up with ways to spend all the money on more furniture and CRAP!!...so...as I stated in kidcas' thread CW2 pointed out up top..i am trying to find a "convenient" and unobscure way to mount the PCB without it being damaged and still giving enough room for a 1DIN and 2DIN configuration...

Also...final rendition will most likely be Carbon Fiber as i have stated earlier I just think for now I will be doing this in fiberglass for all the future testing and fitting since it's easier than wet lay..I don't have IPT's convenience of pre-preg and an autoclave...

I went to a local hifi shop to see how much a custom install would cost, including creating a custom faceplate, wiring, and "interfacing into the bose system". They quoted me 900 bucks! For 900 bucks I can have a more than decent computer + touchscreen lcd hooked onto the side of the passenger side. But that's not very integrated... so, XeRo, any updates on your faceplate? =)

Do you think there's enough room for the top row of buttons (clock, etc..), a 2Din slot, and the AC controls on the bottom? (I haven't looked inside the dash at all).

I'm gonna go hunt around for other stores to get some more quotes, but since these guys don't know much about the 8, I'd prefer to get info from someone who actually owns the car...! Thanks for taking the time to check this out!

On a side note, I recently saw the kenwood 2Din video/audio receiver in a boxster... it's sick. I need one. =)

There is plenty of room for a 2DIN opening...it's practically there just behind the pretty fascia...i have not done anything else on it...sorry...i have been pondering the whole carputer ordeal, so my designs for a faceplate for a typical stereo have been placed on backburner...i'm looking at what Rotarygod has done but something about mounting a unit in the space where the NAV goes just doesn't do anything for me...i just need time, which i don't have. My intent on doing it in CF has gone out the window...wet lay CF is a PAIN IN THE A$$...i have a contact in ATL that can get pre-preg CF and has all the equipment, i.e. vac bags and autoclaves...i just need to perfect the mold and get a fiberglass or plastic one made to do the test fitting....if you have time for sale i'll buy some......

Hey guys, I found this place locally that can produce a faceplate for relatively cheap. I'm gonna try to get it done.. but first of all, what should I be aware of? I'm gonna try to get it done with carbon fibre if possible.

If this works out, I'll send out a pic and maybe I can get us some cheap copies of the mold he creates. It'll save us some time too! Just let me know what I should be aware of before I dive into this tho.. thanks!

You guys do know R-Magic do a faceplate that gives you a 1-din opening whre the sat-nav would normally be? (so ok for non sat-nav cars)....

Will try and dig out the details..


-andy-

Yes we all know. I did a group buy for it that 3 people too me up on. The cost runs you at about $500-600 and dealing with RMagic is a PIA. They are presently out-of-stock and we are running into the Obon holiday season. New units won't be avaialble until the end of August.

Know about the RMagic.. but don't quite like the fact that I'll get this huge bump on top of my dash. I wanted it to be as oem as possible; but more importantly, I wanted to stick a 2-din DVD monitor in it. =)

Well the answer wasn't for you Isamu. Sixspeed was asking about it, and I was giving some info regarding the piece.

I personally would rather use the stock nav hood for a carputer or put it in place of the stock HU for the same reasons as yourself... it looks more factory. ;)

Right, I too was answering Sixspeed actually - basically it's because of the factory look. =) I actually thought about putting a carputer instead too, but I figure if I put in an actual receiver, I'll have better sound quality. Also, it doesn't prevent me from building a carputer since it will be able to take video in (won't be as high resolution as a VGA input though).

Sound quality vs carputer video resolution...

To summarize what has to be done though, can someone tell me if I'm missing anything before I dump the stock HU out?

- Clock and A/C PCB has to be relocated
- Make it fit nicely.
- Umm.. anything else?
- The guy mentioned something about a remote control to steering wheel control interface that I can get for 100 bucks at PAC (Pacific Accessories or something like that).

PAC unit is POS (to me). It's wired into the steering mount controls and turns them into infrared remote control beams that are aimed at your headunit. You then program the buttons to the same functions as the HU stock remote. Not such a hot solution, eh?

That's pretty hacked up. I suppose I could live without steering wheel controls (although the mute button does come in handy).

What about this line converter Bose interface that the guy said he would use... anybody know how much the sound would degrade after going though such an interface? Any way around it (besides replacing the amps and speakers - don't want to do that yet)?

PAC unit is POS (to me). It's wired into the steering mount controls and turns them into infrared remote control beams that are aimed at your headunit. You then program the buttons to the same functions as the HU stock remote. Not such a hot solution, eh? Does it work?

---jps

As long as your radio can accept IR commands, yes it does work. We use them at my work all the time. I wouldn't call it a POS. I'd call it the only solution that works most of the time.

Perhaps so, but I don't like it. Works MOST of the time...

If there was a better solution we'd use it. There are only 1 or 2 cars on the market that it does not work on. With a resistor or two we can make it work on almost anything. Companies like Alpine used to make hardwired steering wheel control interfaces for their radios, but those have gone away. If headunits had any other way other than IR to control them (RS-232, etc) I'm sure there would be better solutions. But for now we're happy with the PAC-SWIX. I'm not arguing with you. I agree that somewhere, somehow someone should make a better solution. But I can't think of any other solution with current headunit technology. So for now, it works. And when it does work, it's 100%. Just one or two odd cars don't work with it. And I'm sure we'll figure out those cars eventually...

...I actually thought about putting a carputer instead too, but I figure if I put in an actual receiver, I'll have better sound quality...

Why don't you think that you can get as good of sound quality from a carputer as you can from an actual receiver?

---jps

Maybe it's just because I haven't done enough research, but my impression is that if I take the audio output from a carputer and plug it into the existing head unit (via the PIE adapter I suppose), it won't sound as great as if I got a new receiver.

Of course I could plug the carputer into a receiver than run that through to the speakers - but that would be the same as an actual receiver.

I may be missing something here... so please enlighten me if there are better solutions with the carputer route. =)

Carputer will sound better...

use a Sound Blaster alugy (sp?), high quality cabling, amps and speakers. be sure to properly ground EVERYTHING. This sound setup offers fidelity beyond what a CD is capable of...

The above is doing a total HU replacement with your carputer.

The other solution... I don't know how good the PIE adapater is, however... anything that sound excellent on your mp3 players will sound good for your carputer. What are stereos, CD/DVD players and mp3 players? specialized computers which are running stripped Unix/Linux OS (in general).

I'm skeptical. Why is that going to sound better than a CD? What source material are you going to use? I could buy it if you said it was indistinguishable from a CD...but better?

jds

Carputer will sound better...

use a Sound Blaster alugy (sp?), high quality cabling, amps and speakers. be sure to properly ground EVERYTHING. This sound setup offers fidelity beyond what a CD is capable of...

The above is doing a total HU replacement with your carputer.

The other solution... I don't know how good the PIE adapater is, however... anything that sound excellent on your mp3 players will sound good for your carputer. What are stereos, CD/DVD players and mp3 players? specialized computers which are running stripped Unix/Linux OS (in general).

A soundblaster isn't going to "offer fidelity beyond what a CD is capable of", because it can't improve on the source material. And most CD/DVD and MP3 players are not running OSes of any flavor. It's all firmware, which is cheaper, simpler, easier on batteries, and much more reliable.

But the PIE setup (or any similar device that uses that input into the head unit) is capable of getting the same sound quality as if you were playing a CD in the head unit itself. With a carputer, you can have a decent sound card, and output just as good of sound quality as any other device that you can hook up to that input. With a carputer, you have the choice of playing any level quality of track, from the most compressed MP3s to uncompressed CD WAV files. And with a carputer, you can add all sorts of capacity to make room for the highest quality tracks.

The weakest link in this case would be the factory head unit itself. And you really won't be able to noticeably improve on it's sound quality with anything but top of the line head units (as in more than $500 dollar units that only have pre-amp outputs and no onboard amps). The speakers and amps leave a lot of room for upgrading, but the head unit itself isn't bad.

And if you want, you can bypass a head unit altogether, and have the carputer feed the amps directly, in which case, with the right equipment, you can match even top of the line head units.

But my basic point is, unless you put together a lousy carputer setup, you can get as good of sound quality out of it (as long as you are playing high-quality source material, of course).

---jps

You're always skeptical bureau13.

And you aren't entirely right Sputnik. Just because the source material is limited in it's fidelity, doesn't mean that your equipment offers fidelity beyond the CD level. This is more of a situation of owning a Ferrari... due to traffic and speed limits you'll never go beyond 80-90mph, but that doesn't mean the car doesn't offer perfomance beyond that level.

You guys aren't one of the types that thinks CD's are the highest fidelity format developed? You also don't believe that a MD is the same or better than a CD in quality? (I've heard someone say this) Considering that MD's use a reduced frequency range in order to squeeze 74 minutes of audio data on a smaller disk... I won't bother to go much more into this format as it is below our standard here... CD-DA.

An audio CD contains audio data stored in a formate called CD Digital Audio (CD-DA). The specifications of this format, referred to as "red book" were decided by Philips and Sony along with other details when the CD standard was developed by them in 1982. CD-DA employs a lossy compression technique in order to store audio information in the available space. It is called "lossy" because some of the available data is lost when converted to this format. Essentially the audio is encoded by sampling the source at a rate of 44.1 kHz and each sample is 16bits in size.

A "next generation" format that arose originally to replace cassettes, giving "home" recording capabilities that the CD format did not offer at the time is Digital Audio Tape (DAT). Mechanically DAT drives resemble VCR's and are able to record at sample rate of 44.1 kHz (the CD-DA standard) and 48kHz as well. DAT has actually found wide acceptance in professional and semi-professional recording environments for master recordings. become the standard archiving technology in professional and semi-professional recording environments for master recordings.

The present "next generation" format set to replace audio CD's is DVD-A. It employs lossless compression methods and provides more complexity of sound by increasing the sampling rate and the frequency range beyond what is possible for the space limitations of CDs and even DVD-Video (16-bit 48kHz). DVD Audio is 24-bit, with a sampling rate of 96 kHz.

AND... you've missed a huge point here. Signal to noise ratio. rotarygod, Xero, any audio professional will tell about it's importance... "In analog and digital communications, signal-to-noise ratio, often written S/N or SNR, is a measure of signal strength relative to background noise. The ratio is usually measured in decibels (dB)." The Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro offers 24-bit DVD-Audio playback at 108dB SNR clarity. You aren't going to get that with " decent sound card." You aren't going to get that with the on-board sound card used by Via Technologies on it's C3 based mini-ITX motherboards. Just see what people have had to say on http://www.mp3car.com

As far as devices go, they aren't all "cheap" firmware. If that was true then your Palm Pilot would employ "firmware" and not an "OS" (use less memory and battery) and Mp3 players wouldn't have a reset button for when they freeze. Your nav system in your 8 would use firmware as well as your PS2 or Xbox. The obvious arguement here is that a Palm Pilot is used for more than just audio playback. This is true, but things aren't so simple anymore. Now these devices have to worry about decoding data and in the DVD's case regional encoding, menus, etc. Really... this is software not just raw data. Mp3 players have to connect to PCs and "dummy" as an removable drive in order to copy files across. not to mention..."Get the latest iPod software so you can take advantage of all the great new features in iTunes." Sure there are firmware updates for devices that use them... but those devices are not very versitility or complexity of devices today. A linksys DSL modem/router has firmware that can be upgraded. I have upgraded the firmware on my old NTT ISDN modem (a serious PITA). Look... I have other things to do... like sleep. Run a search, do some research. Post some stuff to prove me wrong...

I understand that I can probably get equal audio quality as what I have now given a carputer setup with a good sound card (SB Audigy) + PIE; I totally agree with you guys on that. But as someone else described it, I want a clearer sound, not like a pillow stuffed in the speaker. So the question I guess is whether the bottleneck is the head unit, or the amps + speakers? Probably both, but which is the bigger bottleneck (or smaller if you're thinking visually)?

I'm hesitant to change the BOSE speakers (for now) since I paid for the upgrade, might as well use it some more. That leaves the head unit. Thinking about the Kenwood DDX7015. I imagine that should give better sound than the stock HU. Correct me if I'm wrong though as I'm not quite an audiophile yet.

If there was a way for a carputer to sound as good or better, and for cheaper - I'm all for that solution. =)

Isamu... yeah your HU, especially a stock one, will be a limiting factor. But it all depends on the level of fidelity you require and how custom you want to go. According to what many have said on mp3car.com, you're looking at about $600 to get your carputer off the ground. Now if you want more power, a smaller form factor, etc. then it will start to cost you more money.

That being said...

I think you can get a sound you like with the stock HU. Pick up some nice line converters from David Navone... N774V four channel converter. Replace those stock speakers and replace that Bose amp.

The problem with losing the HU and going all computer is you lose am/fm radio. That has been difficult to work out for everyone on mp3car.com. Another is your steering wheel controls... they'll take some work to get them to work with your PC.

That aside... going all PC means you could get a nice decoder by Audiobahn and have THX in your car... :D

Japan 8 is correct regarding the ability for "upconversions". That's one of the abilities of "better" hardware. Why do you think that the newer home theater receivers take a massive leap in price now. Denon's higher line of Home Theater receiver specifically the AVR-3805/5803A are pushing the envelope with 24bit/192KHz digi inputs...your CD cannot go beyond 16bit/44.1 KHz...a DVD-A outputs at 24bit/192KHz...the quality is much better..you can listen to music on a carputer at a much higher fidelity level due to this...you are looking to play in the most "lossless" format, i.e. WAV, SHN, WMA and where MP3 is concerned it's the worst because it is "lossy" and the fidelity mainly due to a decrease in SNR is crap..most car stereos are rated around 82dB - 96dB...and yes the 108dB offered by the Audigy Platinum cards can be "heard"..

OK..i'm about to pull an RG...i normally do not do this but..

SNR..measure of signal strength relative to background noise with the ratio measured in dB. Incoming strength and noise level usually are in microvolts. You can use the following formula but usually you won't get the achieved signal strength and max allowed noise levels from the manufacturers so you kind of have to go with what they list in their product descriptions....but this is how they get the SNR numbers..

S/N=20 log10 (Vs/Vn)

You of course want your signal strength to be greater giving you a more positive number ..the higher you get the more fidelity you achieve...make sense?

so i'm pushing for the carputer...that's where i'm leaning...but I think i will still continue to work on the faceplate just because I rather have the touchscreen incorporated in the center dash rather than where the NAV would go...

...You guys aren't one of the types that thinks CD's are the highest fidelity format developed?...
No, the point was that one could not improve on the source material. Akin to the fact that putting a lousy driver in a Ferrari would not make him/her a better driver. And as far as any specialized formats (by that I mean something that you won't find in quantity in a music store), I was referring to the comparison of what both a head unit and a carputer can play (comparing apples to apples). So, as far as a standard CD is concerned, the best carputer setup will not be able to improve upon the best head unit setup, so I was right in that sense. As far as the absolute best sound quality that you could ever get out of a carputer with the right equipment compared to the absolute best sound quality in a commercially available head unit, then the carputer would be better, so you were right in that sense. We were simply talking about different things there.
AND... you've missed a huge point here. Signal to noise ratio...
I didn't miss that point, it's just a moot point, realistically. The limitations would be on the amps themselves, and what they can receive (as in voltage levels and other concerns). And there are commercially available head units that are capable of producing as good of an SNR as a carputer, in a format or manner that commercially amps are capable of handling. Yes, you can install equipment in a carputer that is better than a "decent sound card", but you can also install head units that are also capable of such performance. Realistically, that's a wash.
...As far as devices go, they aren't all "cheap" firmware. If that was true then your Palm Pilot would employ "firmware" and not an "OS" (use less memory and battery) and Mp3 players wouldn't have a reset button for when they freeze... Again, we're talking about apples and oranges. A Palm Pilot or an Ipod are much more than a basic MP3 or CD player. They have OSes, and perform many many more tasks. Something like a basic car stereo head unit, and a Sony Discman that can play CDs/MP3s/Atrac don't have OSes, they simply have firmware. Both are software driven (and so sometimes things have to be reset even if only firmware driven), the basic difference is that firmware is closed, in that you don't have add-ons. To update or add anything, you have to re-write the whole package to make any changes. An OS is open, and you can change or add software as you wish, like adding a game to your palmpilot. That kind of open architecture requires alot of extra software, and thus more memory and processing, so it is more complex, power hungry, and expensive. It is also open to alot more problems via either the more complex OS, or any of the add-on software.

---jps

Actually...

No, the point was that one could not improve on the source material. Akin to the fact that putting a lousy driver in a Ferrari would not make him/her a better driver. And as far as any specialized formats (by that I mean something that you won't find in quantity in a music store), I was referring to the comparison of what both a head unit and a carputer can play (comparing apples to apples). So, as far as a standard CD is concerned, the best carputer setup will not be able to improve upon the best head unit setup, so I was right in that sense. As far as the absolute best sound quality that you could ever get out of a carputer with the right equipment compared to the absolute best sound quality in a commercially available head unit, then the carputer would be better, so you were right in that sense. We were simply talking about different things there.



And no commercially available head unit in the US can even approach what you can do with a car computer. If you include the JDM you get closer, but at how many times the cost?


I didn't miss that point, it's just a moot point, realistically. The limitations would be on the amps themselves, and what they can receive (as in voltage levels and other concerns). And there are commercially available head units that are capable of producing as good of an SNR as a carputer, in a format or manner that commercially amps are capable of handling. Yes, you can install equipment in a carputer that is better than a "decent sound card", but you can also install head units that are also capable of such performance. Realistically, that's a wash.

See the above. It's not a wash.. just a waste of your money. AND... I don't doubt the existence of said HU (I know I've seen receivers of this level for the home), but they don't seem to be so widespread. Or maybe it's the shops I go to... OTOH, the sound blaster card can be bought at virtually any computer hardware store.


Again, we're talking about apples and oranges. A Palm Pilot or an Ipod are much more than a basic MP3 or CD player. They have OSes, and perform many many more tasks. Something like a basic car stereo head unit, and a Sony Discman that can play CDs/MP3s/Atrac don't have OSes, they simply have firmware. Both are software driven (and so sometimes things have to be reset even if only firmware driven), the basic difference is that firmware is closed, in that you don't have add-ons. To update or add anything, you have to re-write the whole package to make any changes. An OS is open, and you can change or add software as you wish, like adding a game to your palmpilot. That kind of open architecture requires alot of extra software, and thus more memory and processing, so it is more complex, power hungry, and expensive. It is also open to alot more problems via either the more complex OS, or any of the add-on software.

---jps

Right. What do you think is running on the Pioneer AVIC-N1? http://www.pioneerusa.com/pna/article/0,,2076_3149_79169030,00.html looks a lot like Windows CE/automotive to me...

Do you know what Windows XPe or Windows CE is? According to you definition they are both firmware and software. They are multifunction, but closed software. You cannot add or remove from the OS. The OS is specifically tailored to the hardware it is running on and cannot be used with other hardware. To use different hardware means rebuilding the OS.

Do you know what powered the Sega Dreamcast? Windows CE. It's a purpose built machine, is it not? What about Red Hat that's been built to run on the Playstation 2? What do you really think is running on an Xbox considering the processor is x86 and it's made by Microsoft? I'd bet the farm it's Windows CE. Ever heard of Windows Automotive? Take a good look at Microsoft's website.

So what about the iPod? How about this... http://www.macdevcenter.com/pub/a/mac/2003/05/03/ipod_pda.html

Ever updated the software on a Palm Pilot? There're no modules in there.... it's overwrite it all or nothing... but this is certainly multi-function, somewhat programmable, and more. Everyone would say it's running an OS...

Do I need to post the specs on DVD? Sorry firmware isn't going to cut it. This isn't a VCR. There are menus on the disks, not the machine. The system has to read that info off the disk and display it... and all menus aren't going to look the same or display the same information. Chapter search? MPEG 2 decoding? The next thing you tell me that the HDD/DVD Recorder units use firmware too...

What about these...

http://www.discount-car-stereo-deals.com/press%20releases/06-perception-car-stereo.html

http://www.discount-car-stereo-deals.com/press%20releases/14-phatnoise-car-stereo.html

Here's an interesting one...
http://www.coderworld.net/hosted/car.comput3r/

You're right Japan8, I am always skeptical! It must be my nature.

Redbook audio does not use lossy compression...it uses a sample rate that theoretically allows an exact reproduction of all frequencies in the source audio up to 20KHz. I don't know about you, but my hearing doesn't go any higher than that. Now, there is the whole quantization error thing...so you're correct in the sense that quantization and sampling rate were chosen at least in part to fit the required amount of material onto a standard CD.

At any rate, I was thinking you were playing CD audio files or worse (e.g. MP3s, etc) on your Carputer. So since you spent a good bit of time talking about DVD-Audio, you're planning on playing that I assume? I have not personally had an opportunity to hear that format myself. I have my doubts that you or anyone else will be able to appreciate such subtle nuances, much less notice the difference in signal-to-noise ratio you pointed out, in an automotive environment...but if that stuff makes you happy by all means go for it.

jds

Red Book Audio does employ lossy compression. What do you know of pulse-code Modulation (PCM)? You are correct in saying that once digitized the signal is not subjected to further compression, e.g. data compression. However, the analog signal may be subjected to amplitude compression. This type of A/D processing has been made obsolete by signal compression. To further simplify this and where I got the info (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PCM), the PCM analog/digital (A/D) format used by the CD-DA standard employs lossy compression.

This is why Philips and Sony developed a competiting stanadrd to DVD-A. BOth arose becuase of the limitations of CD's. The Philips and Sony standard Super Audio CD (SACD)

"The Super Audio CD samples the music 2 million 822 thousand times per second. Instead of the PCM system used in current digital audio systems a Delta signal, Direct Stream digital system developed by Sony and Phillips is used. The digital stream can be recorded on a computer hard drive or a magnetic tape. Almost no signal processing, no dither, no quantitization like regular CD is used. The music is sampled, recorded, and and a final output filter utilized, and you have music.

Unlike Dolby Digital 5.1 surround sound which highly compressed the digital signal and only allows a small bass bandwidth on the subwoofer channel, the SACD offers six full range out to 100Khz channels. " (http://www.altermanaudio.com/sacd.html)

As to being able to appreciate the difference or not... while an automotive environment is hardly offers the best acoustics, there is a clearly periveable difference. Some things are not so easily quantifiable by the standard scientific means... or at least the techniques we use today. I was having this disussion with an audio professional on the list about a month ago.

"While PCM digital recordings, even the new high big, higher sampling digital masters sound wonderful, most recording engineers still prefer and think old fashioned reel to reel recorders, operating at 30 ips, is the ultimate sound recording machine. Keep in mind cassettes operate at 1 7/8 ips. Analog 30 ips half inch recordings have a frequency response to 100kHz, a signal to noise ratio of 100 db and ultra low distortion."(http://www.altermanaudio.com/sacd.html)


BTW... this wasn't about what I will or will not use, but rather it began with talking about if a car pc can offer fidelity that exceeds the CD standard.

Maybe some more later...

Look, I'm not going to get into a debate with you here about the CD-DA standard. Its too off topic, even for me! You've done a lot of quoting, but I've never heard anyone infer from amplitude compression of the analog signal that "may" be done that CD-DA employs "lossy compression." None of your quoted links state that either. I supposed depending on your definitions, you may be able to say that, but I've never heard it stated that way, and its not what I mean by the term.

Whatever....I'll have to check out the DVD-Audio stuff some time. I'm sure I'll never see the point of putting it in a car though!

jds

Agreed... i tend to get a bit caught up in debates, but this is rather off-topic.

Just to explain my logic, if you are compressing the amplitude as part of the D/A conversion process, then your final digital signal will have less amplitude than the original analog signal. That's loss. I didn't say it was digital compression loss like in mp3. Just that CD-DA has a loss of fidelity if compared to reel-to-reel 100kHz masters.

As I said, the point had nothing to do with putting DVD-A in a car or not. This was a straight out standards vs standards, not practical usage discussion. but whatever... stick a fork in it. done.

Faceplate manufacturing... there is a shop here that offers a service to rebuild your faceplate into 2DIN. There are pics of it in HyperRev... I'd love to see what they did about the climate controls and LED display...

I tried to get a custom faceplate done up - it's still going but meanwhile, my installer tried to get the electronics working first. To sum up, I have my aftermarket head unit stuck in the stock HU hole held in there by a screw. My stock HU is now 2 PCB boards with wires and solder all over it. Needless to say, my AC controls do not work. The audio bypasses the bose amp and goes directly to the speakers (no aftermarket AMP yet and couldn't get it to work with the bose). In short, nothing works!

Question is, the PCB to be relocated - it's actually 2 boards right? One attaches to another? So I assume both have to be reloacted. Nothing is turning on after I plugged it in and reading from another thread, it's probably toasted. But just before I jump to that conclusion, any idea what I am missing?

This is what really happened now:
1) Took apart everything, down to naked pcb boards.
2) Soldered wires to the connectors so the 2 boards are connected where they should be.
3) Extended heater control wires so the boards can be put up into the stock NAV area.
4) Original "plug" (the big one) was plugged back in to test.
5) Nothing works!

Many points that could have screwed the boards so what is the correct and best approach in moving the heater controls out of the way? The entire unit, frame and all, doesn't seem to fit...

i think im going to be very interested, but i am a picky mofo. and expect awsome quality in order for me to purchase. i mean i did choose this car. bu tlet me know and maybe some picks with close ups on the seems after install.