**Edited 2/17/04**

CanZoomer Stage 1 Group Buy, round two is in progress.

I'm opening the floor to 25 buyers, because it seems like I'm getting more and more interest. The price is $535 shipped, and there is the standard 2-3 week waiting period between payment and receipt of the goods. You are still eligible for all warranty work and software updates as well stage 2 upgrade discounts. If you want or need referrals about my trustworthiness, please contact me. Don't bother canzoomer with them, as he doesn't personally know me outside of our business relationship. Verification of GB #1 payment can be found here:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=249268#post249268


As of 2/17 I have 13 buyers, I expect another week or two until 12 more chime in. This buy is approved by the forum administration. I accept, and ONLY accept: paypal, cashier's check, or money orders. If you use paypal, please add %5 to cover paypal's comission. Once I get the 25th buyer, I will set the payment deadline 10 days from that date. If I do not have your money, your spot is forfeited to another buyer. I have to be stern about this to protect those who pay on time. The 2-3 weeks is bad enough, and no one wants to wait any longer because of a few stragglers. For more information or to get in, please contact me ASAP.

Regards,

Brian Cross

Dude. Don't be cheap, this chip is well worth the cost. He could easily sell it for more.

Originally posted by epitrochoid
I just noticed today that CZ's stage one is $100 more if you buy just one.

What do you mean, you just noticed? It's not $100 more, it's $150 less! Way back a month ago, he had announced that for orders placed after Jan 1 or so, the price was increasing from $500 for the orders placed before Jan. to $750. It's only this week that he has revised that down to $600.

Regards,
Gordon

that's great, but I'm offering to go through alot of work to help some people out without asking for anything in return. if you're in, you're in. if not then please reserve your comments for another time.

That was rude epitro!

Gord was right on the money. If you would take just a moment of your time and read some of the other posts, you would understand.

Uhhh...no. In the posts about the pricing change CZ himself mentioned the possibility of group buys for $500. Why are you all offended that someone wants to do the legwork to set it up? $100 not spent on the Stage 1, no matter how deserving it may be, is $100 that can be spent on an exhaust, or gas for more driving.

jds

I'm not offended by wanting to save money, that is why I ordered mine before the cut off date that was noted.. It is obvious that he has not read the entire thread or he would know that the new price was $750 until yesterday.

Gord just pointed that out and in return was told to mind his own business. Maybe I'm too thin skinned.

what the hell is everyone's problem? Get off epitrochoid's back. If CZ see's that there are alot that want to get in a group buy he may be willing to do one. It seems to me it would benefit us and the company that makes them. If he doesn't, it seems $600 is a fair price anyway.

I wasn't aware that the price dropped back to 600, that seems alot better than 750.

Originally posted by zerobanger
what the hell is everyone's problem? Get off epitrochoid's back. If CZ see's that there are alot that want to get in a group buy he may be willing to do one. It seems to me it would benefit us and the company that makes them. If he doesn't, it seems $600 is a fair price anyway.

I wasn't aware that the price dropped back to 600, that seems alot better than 750.

zero - at the very same time that CZ announced that the price was being reduced from $750 to $600, he announced that for group buys of 10 units or more, the price would be $500 per unit. It's not just a possibility, it's fact.

Bravo to epitro for being quick off the mark for starting a group buy. I was just pointing out that he seemed to have missed the history of the Stage 1 pricing. He says he was about to make his purchase but noticed that the price was $100 more, which is incorrect - the single unit price is $150 LESS than it has been for the past month!

Yeah, he was kind of rude - maybe he didn't appreciate me pointing out (relatively politely, I thought) in his other thread about sliding that it was apparent that he didn't have a clue about performance driving because he was shifting in the corners! ;) :D

Regards,
Gordon

It was also probably more a reaction to the list of "Don't be a cheap bastard, pay full price!" posts rather than you specifically. I know that was true in my case :D

jds

epitro said it was $100 more IF you buy just one. He said nothing of the price history. Please try not to jump so quickly on people without being sure what was said.

sorry if I offended anyone with my snippety remark. the fact that CZ's site is vauge at best, and the other info is scattered about this form makes it difficult to follow prices and updates. At any rate, $100 saved is $100 saved. If we can get 25 people together, the price drops even more.

As it turns out, I'm going to have to act as a middleman here and collect money, receive all 10 or so units, and then ship them to the buyers. Not to try and cut my reputation down, but I'd be weary about sending someone I didn't know $500 and sitting around waiting for a product. I'll see if there's something better than can be worked out, but I can think of anything just yet. I'm going to look into groupbuycenter.com

im pretty sure you can find 10 buyers @ $500 dollar price easily. just make a thread asking if anyones interested then when you get 10 buyers alert canzoomer.
at $500 im gonna pretty damn tempted to buy it but ive been saving for coilovers.

some more info..

In actuality its not a really a group buy, more like buy 10 and get a bulk discount. I would have to collect payment and receive and ship the units. After shipping the final price would probably be no more than $520. I'm not at all looking to make a profit here, I just want my stage 1 for $500 :D

i looked into groupbuycenter, but it doesn't offer any advantages as far as payment goes. and it costs money to advertise on there. it looks like if i want to do this, then there's two ways to go about it

1. i'd have to arrange all buyers to paypal me the money at or around the same date (no one wants to wait with $500 out of their pocket while X more people sign up), and then I will send the order to CZ.

2. I can place a dutch auction on ebay, this way, buyers are fully protected through paypal/ebay. this would raise the price a few bucks to cover listing fees. the auction wont be private but if the interest is heavy enough, I'll list more than 10 units.

I can't front $5000, sorry. if anyone's got any ideas about making the transaction more secure for the buyers, let me know.

If you think you'd be interested shoot me a PM. If i get 10 people willing to do this I'll place the order right away. i'll probably put a listing on ebay and see what comes of it. for club members, ill be sure you get yours for $500.

Make sure you understand ALL the costs. My unit ended up costing $566 total after my bank added a fee for out of Country transactions, and variations in the exchange rate, shipping, etc.

good point, thanks

THE UNITS ARE $500 BEFORE TAX, EXCHANGE RATE CHANGES, SHIPPING AND ANY OTHER FEES INCURRED!!

Originally posted by epitrochoid
the fact that CZ's site is vauge at best, and the other info is scattered about this form makes it difficult to follow prices and updates.

this will all be changing soon is all i am obliged to say.


as for the group buy i am getting my car hopefully in a week or so and i will look at my financing to see if i can afford to get in on this buy or not.

Originally posted by epitrochoid
good point, thanks

THE UNITS ARE $500 BEFORE TAX, EXCHANGE RATE CHANGES, SHIPPING AND ANY OTHER FEES INCURRED!!

yea i think 520 is going to be a bit unrealistic.

500 before shipping from canada. i do think if you ship 10 in at a time shipping is going to be a lot less.

but then you have to reship them. time and money.

let me know if i can help.

beers

Well i am in Texas and if is posible sign me on just have to know how much it will be on my door..:) thanks is a great idea...

Im in i was waiting for someone esle to hit the market,but 500 bucks is cheap.Let me know when you get a final solution.

Wtf is a aa87 my wtf no turbo is gone!!!

And you may want to check on importing when the $$ value goes over a certain point. Not sure but this may cost even more.

edit added in first post ^

Aight im fixed now, man i dont know where that aa 78 nonsence came from.

I'm in, sent you a pm.

thanks, Jeff

Ok, guy's I got a final price.

$520

$5000 for the units
$85 Fedex Air
$49 Insurance
$70 shipping estimate from me to you. I'm anxious to get this done, so If I'm off I'll just bite it.

Divide that all by 10 and it comes out to $520

In all fairness to those that may not have immediate internet access, I will allow the first 10 that contacted me (you have been PMed) to have first dibs. In the first post of this thread is a listing of those who have confirmed. If all 10 members have not confirmed before Feb 4th, I will open it up to others who want in.

If you plan to paypal, please add 3%. If you want to mail me payment, please use some form of express mail. I will not send the wire transfer to Maurice until I have every last dime in my account to cover it all, so it's in everyone's best interest to find a way to be swift.

Please by no means send me payment without first notifying me. I am not a dealer, I do not have these units in stock, nor can I easily add to the order.

As soon as I hear from the 3 remaining people, I'll send out a PM and have you guys go ahead and pay.

To those that are interested but not on the list..I will set up another GB in a few weeks. Expect prices to be 10-15 dollars higher (Sorry, gotta make it worth it somehow!)

Thanks for making this go real smooth!

dammit, I feel like I just ran to the bus stop to see waving goodbye...

No worries man, I'll get you in on the next one!


EDIT: if you could, just shoot me a PM. I'm storing messages in a way that allows me to keep track of who wants what without entering you into the database as a comitted buyer.

Just curious - why are you cutting off the group buy at 10 orders? I understood that was a minimum quantity - can't you collect 20 or 30 orders for the same price? I realise you would need to set a deadline date to get in on it, and wouldn't want that deadline too far out, but it seems you've got more people interested than just 10 already!

Regards,
Gordon

Good point Gord.

The next GB will have 25 buyers. I wasn't sure how many would be interested, and I didn't want people to have to wait should interest be low. Interest is very good however, so for the next round, it will be 25.

If you want in, shoot me a PM.

Originally posted by epitrochoid
The next GB will have 25 buyers. I wasn't sure how many would be interested, and I didn't want people to have to wait should interest be low. Interest is very good however, so for the next round, it will be 25.

If you want in, shoot me a PM.

If we get more. like 35, will the price go down? I'd wait for another -$50+.

No, the price will only drop a few dollars, as the overhead costs are less per unit. My cost would be only $3-$4 dollars less.

If we are able to gather a very large number of buyers, we would definately have a very long wait.

Originally posted by epitrochoid
No, the price will only drop a few dollars, as the overhead costs are less per unit. My cost would be only $3-$4 dollars less.

If we are able to gather a very large number of buyers, we would definately have a very long wait.

OK. Just checkin'.

Since several people have dropped out, after comitting to pay might I add, there is now at least 1 slot open for sure. I still have yet to hear from or receive payment from 2 others.

After the way some of these buyers have been acting, I'm giving serious reconsideration as to whether or not I'm willing to go through this again. If you think you're going to want a CZ stage 1 and you want it at great price you better get in now, this could be the last GB I sponsor!

Sorry I cut it so close (paid as of now) was waiting for confermation of my Income tax refund (should have been 3 days ago!!!) but its all good now :)

im interested.

well doobywho, send Ep a private IM and then pay the man, we need one more (talk to Ep b4 payin!!)

Thanks for helpin me out freehk :D

I've got 9 payers now, so including my self I'm finally good to go. I'll keep you all updated via PM and/or email.

WOOT!! Sweetness, Thats 10!!! Im-a-gettin excited now!!

:)

Yeah, I'm #10. :D

My payment is on it's way to epitrochoid.

Sorry for being so late for the party. Gotta stop spending so much time in the lounge. ;)

Payment's been made.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=249268#post249268

Thanks epitrochoid! Can't wait. :D

Now, what happened to your "Greddy SP2 Group Buy"? It disappeared!

Forum managment decided it was going to caused a conflict of interest with the advertisers, so the thread was pulled unit some form of comission payment can be worked out.

epitrochoid
I would like in on the next groupbuy!!!!

My username is leegina and it comes up as vmiller6??????

O.k. lets try it again
epitrochoid
I would like to get in the next gb!!

i'll be in touch with everyone in a week or two

Originally posted by epitrochoid
Forum managment decided it was going to caused a conflict of interest with the advertisers, so the thread was pulled unit some form of comission payment can be worked out. Oh sure, well that's just great. I guess that's fair for group buys from a source other than a forum advertiser.

If a forum advertiser would like to advertise a quantity discount which creates the formation of a group buy however, I don't see where commission would be due to any advertiser. That's fair competition and I could see how an advertiser could make some bigger bucks in providing group buy deals all the time.

If a group buy would go to purchase from a non-advertiser however, the group buy, which would be using this forum, which is funded by its advertisers, should pay commission to those advertisers. After all, the advertisers are providing support for this forum and don't want to see that their funding is providing a place for non-advertiser competition to make a sale, a big sale.

Well, I hope I'm seeing this issue correctly. These are my own thoughts, nobody elses. I could be seeing it differently than forum management. I hope not.

All I know is if I was an advertiser who parked my butt right in the middle of some huge forum, I would be pricing my stuff nice and low and hold on while the orders come flooding in. 2x$1 = 1x$2. 10x$1 > 0x$10. Just gotta be able to handle all that volume.

The comission isn't paid to the advertisers, but to the forum administrator Ryan Scott. I was quick to get very defensive about my 'at cost' GB's being pulled, but he made a good point. He has a hell of a bill to pay for us to be able to come on here for free, and that's paid for 100% by the advertisers on this site, and its sister sites. He isn't a position to pick and choose the advertisers with the best prices, so when a company is paying big bucks to advertise to forum members, he's obligated in a way to defend them from people like me who aren't in it for the money. The CZ GB's are free to run because Maurice is the sole manufacturer and distributor, and he's obviously OK'd it. In the case of the SP2's, the GB was sourced from a paying advertiser on this site, but since I was offering them at my cost + S&H, I was in a way hurting the other advertisers that are selling direct to the customer.

I still believe that there's two types of buyers on here. Those that take a risk and live with the delay of a group buy, and those that are willing to pay extra to cover the overheard of an established company in the name of speedy shipping and security.

You gotta remember, that like it or not, we're in Ryan's world here, and he has to answer first to those that pay him. If they threaten to terminate their advertising contracts because of me, someone who brings him $0 profit, he has every right to ask me to stop, or try and work out a compensation system to make up from the income lost by dropped advertisers.

Hopefully once we get something worked out, my price will still be competitive, but we'll see.

I happen to agree with Racer X-8 on this, and neither of us just fell off the turnip wagon, so you "young'uns" listen up.

In addition, I have been a Manufacturer's Representative for over 25 years, and have never heard of such a thing as "secondary commission" as described above.

The administrator is assuming the position of both a publisher selling advertising, and a Rep or Broker collecting commision from sales of his advertisers; except instead of collecting the commission from the manufacturer, he wants to collect from the buyer. Under these circumstances, the administrator must, then, provide a service in keeping with his "Agency" status and must participate in ALL of the risk associated with ANY transaction involving "his" advertisers which eminates from this site (not just group buys).

None of the above is evident in what is described here, and the words that come to mind are "cherry-picking", "kick-back", and "double-dipping".

Cooperative buying has been around for centuries. In this particular case, epitrochoid is simply trying to minimize his own cost. In so doing, he has solicited like-minded folks in order to take advantage of quantity-sensitive pricing. And he is doing it with little, or no, compensation.

Having said all of that, either this site is free to the user or it is not. If the Administrator wants to charge for his participation, then I think that it should be a two-way street. And, if I were an advertiser, I would be wondering how many sales I've lost.

The administration isn't looking to charge me an advertising fee and take a commission off every sale I make. In essence, I am a vendor using the site he pays for to "make money", and I use that term loosely because he really has no way of knowing for sure if I'm just breaking even or making a fortune. The fact that it's a group buy makes no difference to him. Since I am claiming this to be a non-profit operation, he's agreed to work out a "per sale" system so that I don't end up having to cover advertising overhead.

Let use this scenario for example, because I'm afraid you guys don't understand what going on completely:

-The sites collectively cost $1500 a month
-There are 15 advertisers each paying $100 a month for rotating banners
-Through terminated contracts, or lower demanded advertising rates, the administration looses $200 per month, or 2 equivalent advertisers due to conflicts with group buys.
-Administration will charge a percentage on each GB sale to raise the $200 to cover for the lost income from advertisers.

The only people engaging in poor business are the advertisers themselves. I know that they can get better prices than I can from distributors, and through a group sale, they can effectively elimate the need to cover overhead, as the GB organizer is doing all the work. No haggling with customers, no need to advertise, they just get their money and out the door goes the goods. However, they are not willing to do that. Even in my zero profit scenario, they could undercut me by a slight percentage and still turn a material profit.

So it's not the forum administration we need to be after, it's the advertisers. Ryan is just doing his job and protecting those that pay him to do what he does. If another nonpaying vendor came in, and posted prices that undercut all the advertisers, they would be accessing the same medium that others pay for, for free, and in a way it's unfair.


BTW: my thread has officially been jacked :P

Originally posted by epitrochoid
i'll be in touch with everyone in a week or two


If the legalities of this "group buy/sell" is worked out soon, I want in on the next go-round...my email is: katnkevin2001@yahoo.com

Kevin

there's a second CZ stage 1 GB in progress now, I can provide references if you'd like. If you're talking about the SP2, I'm still working with forum administration on that.

PM or email me though, it's easier for me to keep track of names.

brianc@*nospam*tampabay.rr.com

take out the nospam

epitrochoid will you be setting anything like this for stage 2 or will i have to go on my own???

If I did a stage two, it would likely be for the computer only. People want different options for the midpipe/cat so it would be too hard to organize 10 buyers. If I feel like there's enough interest I'll organize one.

Originally posted by epitrochoid
The administration isn't looking to charge me an advertising fee and take a commission off every sale I make. In essence, I am a vendor using the site he pays for to "make money", and I use that term loosely because he really has no way of knowing for sure if I'm just breaking even or making a fortune. The fact that it's a group buy makes no difference to him. Since I am claiming this to be a non-profit operation, he's agreed to work out a "per sale" system so that I don't end up having to cover advertising overhead.

Let use this scenario for example, because I'm afraid you guys don't understand what going on completely:

-The sites collectively cost $1500 a month
-There are 15 advertisers each paying $100 a month for rotating banners
-Through terminated contracts, or lower demanded advertising rates, the administration looses $200 per month, or 2 equivalent advertisers due to conflicts with group buys.
-Administration will charge a percentage on each GB sale to raise the $200 to cover for the lost income from advertisers.

The only people engaging in poor business are the advertisers themselves. I know that they can get better prices than I can from distributors, and through a group sale, they can effectively elimate the need to cover overhead, as the GB organizer is doing all the work. No haggling with customers, no need to advertise, they just get their money and out the door goes the goods. However, they are not willing to do that. Even in my zero profit scenario, they could undercut me by a slight percentage and still turn a material profit.

So it's not the forum administration we need to be after, it's the advertisers. Ryan is just doing his job and protecting those that pay him to do what he does. If another nonpaying vendor came in, and posted prices that undercut all the advertisers, they would be accessing the same medium that others pay for, for free, and in a way it's unfair.


BTW: my thread has officially been jacked :P

Your post is very illogical and detracts from the essence of the community. "Hey let me organize a group buy so I can make some money off of my fellow enthusiasts." The whole premise of a GB is to cut out the middle man and the participants get a volume discount. So you get a cut, the site gets a cut twice, and we get a deal??? I'll pay $600 and let CZ make a bit more money off of me so he can afford to pay for the advertising here (I have nothing against that, he is supporting this site) and put some change in his pocket.


D

What do you want me to do about it? If you don't like it you'll have to take it up with forum administration.

Digisan, I fail to see what you see.

We each paid epitrochoid very little more than his cost. I know he paid CZ $5000 for 10 stage 1's. With shipping, if he earns any kind of profit from us, it'll be chump change. Not near what it's worth to deal with the hassle. That's what I'm seeing. I'm very happy with the deal. If he's asking for a bit more to do it again, I can see why.

My question is why is CZ giving such a large price break at such a small quantity as 10 units? But that's his decision that he made, and the stage 1 group buys are only accepting what CZ is offering to anybody who wants it.

I really think that's the thing that you and a bunch of others can't accept, that CZ is selling them at $500 each for 10 units. But he is, and that's not epitrochoid's nor my fault, if there's any fault in that at all.

* BUMP *

OK, I've been watching loads of traffic about the CZ Stage 1/2 group buy #2...any update about for us intrepid FIRST epitrochoid-group-buy folks? I think a regular status message on our order shouldn't be too much to ask for at this point.

-jd.

I've just been emailing people with updates as they ask for them, I've been real busy with school lately.

But anyway, I spoke with Maurice Thursday and he said it's going to be about another week. I know this is like the 4th time he's pushed our ship date back, but consider it from his POV. He doesn't want to ship out a product that doesn't work with the latest PCM calibrations from Mazda, so he's got to stay on top of that. Everyone that's buying direct from him is expierencing these delays as well, so unfotunately it's just the nature of the game.

Check your email often in the next few days, as I'm just going to email you updates.

If you have any more questions give me a call, you should have my number in an old email.

Epitrochoid,

I don't think you caught the nuance of my post: I don't think we should be "nagging" you with individual emails that you should reply to. Rather, I would expect to see a regular (weekly) status message on our order, if, as is our case, the order has been delayed waaaay beyond everyone's expectations. After all, you've handled a substantial chuck of cash on our behalf, so I think it's reasonable for us to be informed about what you do (or even don't) know regarding our purchase.

The delays are 100% reasonable, and in our case fortunate (that we get the latest/best product).

I'm just asking that we start hearing something -- anything -- regularly. Any communication will go a long way towards calming buyers that are suffering long-delayed gratification. I think that's a lesson we learned from Mazda with the pre-orders: long delays + no information => drives us crazy! Just keep us informed, and we'll wait much more comfortably.

I definitely appreciate your efforts! This is meant as a suggestion, born of my own pre-order experience with Mazda. Oh, and definitely my own $0.02 worth ;)

Cheers,
-jd.

I think Epitrochoid has done a fine job keeping us posted. Sure, we all are axiously awaiting our "box of power" but we need to be patient.

The choices are: Pay full price, wait and try to contact CZ who is VERY busy or Pay the discount, wait and have Epitrochoid keeps us up to date.

that's fair enough, *if* for some reason this drags on longer than expected, I can give you weekly updates via email. hopefully the next message I send out will be list of tracking numbers for everyone!

Aw, rats. I guess this means I won't be finding mine when I get home from work today.

Hey epitrochoid, about holding mine till I get back from my week of vacation... never mind... I'm back... :(

no offence to anyone, just,,, darn...

What's the latest? I got some catching-up to do... after work...

Yeah, I know. I had your ship date on my calendar. The lastest from the man himself is that they're going out this week. I of course will let you know the instant I get a tracking number.

I'm not on your group buy but I have been waiting for CZ to ship me back my upgraded unit. I just want to corroborate epitrochoid statement by saying that I recieved email from CZ on Friday saying that he would probably be shipping Monday or Tuesday of this week.

HEY, it's Tuesday!! Where is my CZ!!!! :D :D


just kiddin'

Just for everyone's information regarding the first group buy of 10 units...
Earlier today on another thread I saw Canzoomer post a message that he has everything set with the Stage 1 & Stage 2 kits and they will start shipping them tomorrow 4/7. Hopefully the first GB (of 10 units) will be included in his shipments so expect to hear something within the next week from Epitro.

On a slightly different subject, he also mentioned on the same post that he found (unlike some other posts have mentioned) that the power was actually lower with the "L" flash.

Just an FYI. Check Canzoomer's latest post.

I think the *gains* were lower with 1.1, as Mazda leaned the mixture out a bit in the midrange on their own.

That makes sense about the gains being lower with 1.1 and the L flash. I am still on the K flash so I will see how the stage 1 runs with K + Typhoon + Borla. If it gives me problems I can always get flashed to "L." I am concerned about maybe going too lean seeing as I am in S. FL and I am already leaning the fuel with the intake, the exhaust, the humidity, and the heat. Hopefully I will not have to take out the intake but I may have to.

Look forward to an email from you Epitro!!!

I don't know about you guys, but I just got email from Graham saying they are processing my stuff, I should get it by thursday.. so epitrochoid, I suspect you'll be hearing something soon!

when did you place your order guy?

im trying to see if you're before or after me in queue.

I sent my CZ unit in on 3/12 for upgrade. My upgrade was done within days, Just waiting for the new maps..


THey said they are shipping today and tommorrow.

Originally posted by epitrochoid
when did you place your order guy?

im trying to see if you're before or after me in queue.

well, I think the bottleneck is in the units themselves, not necessarily the upgrades. but if alot of units are soon to be being shipped, and ours is due to go this week, i think it's safe to say we should be getting ours soon!

I'm sure it's coming.. You get the "L" flash yet?

Originally posted by epitrochoid
well, I think the bottleneck is in the units themselves, not necessarily the upgrades. but if alot of units are soon to be being shipped, and ours is due to go this week, i think it's safe to say we should be getting ours soon!

still no luck.

recently i've been dealing with my NAV controls fiasco, but that's fixed now, so back to pestering the dealers for L/M flash

i am interested in a group buy

Originally posted by epitrochoid
still no luck.

recently i've been dealing with my NAV controls fiasco, but that's fixed now, so back to pestering the dealers for L/M flash

curious,

how did you get the nav system fixed. that seemed like it was going to be a pia.

beers
john stewart

what ended up happening was when i dissaembled it, the ribbon cable that connects the two circuit boards had pulled out just a bit. the fastner on there sucks, but once I figured out that was the problem I oh so carefully cleaned and reassembled it and it worked great