So my brakes had been making a weird brushing noise lately. It didn't sound like a brake pad squeaker and it would only happen when i braked. I figured i should check my pad material before long but i really thought they would have some life left in them. Then i started to hear a weird clunking noise. It sounded like an endlink was disconnected or my sway bar bracket was loose.

So i got under my car today and everything was hunky-dory with my suspension but i figured while i was under there i'd check my pads. As it turns out my front pads were completely toast and they only had 1/32 of material left. They were almost to the metal. I couldn't believe it.

They were Racing Brake ET500 with less than 10k street miles 4 track days and 5-6 autocross events. Poof. Gone.

Luckily i prematurely swapped out my pads the last time so i had OEM pads available with a little less than a 1/4 inch of material left. I put those suckers in and now i can drive to work in the morning feeling a little safer :D:

1/4 of OEM material isn't much but it's better than nothing. My real predicament is that i have a track day this weekend. Do i kill the OEM pads at the track (will they even hold up?) or should i try to get some pads shipped ASAP.

Hmm... wow ET500's only lasting 10K miles??? Yikes, that scares me. I just swapped my OEM for ET500's. How long are these pads supposed to last?

I am surprised you got 4 track days AND 5 Auto X's out of the ET500's they are a ceramic compound so they cannot hold up to the heat like the 800's or the HP+

http://www.racingbrake.com/v/main/rb_pads.asp#chart

I think they actually have the ET700 which would be more up your alley because you are a more avid track/autoX guy than just a spirited driver.

Either way let me know what pads you need I am stacked on Hawk and Racing brake pads.

I even have some HT-10's if you want to have some fun.

Hmm... wow ET500's only lasting 10K miles??? Yikes, that scares me. I just swapped my OEM for ET500's. How long are these pads supposed to last?

Running a ceramic pad on track repeatedly is not the best in terms of pad selection.

Swoope ran a test of his own with some Hawk ceramic pads at a track day and they were toast after one day...they glazed over after one session

Right pad for the right application, sometimes it is really challenging finding that happy medium in a brake pad.

Everyone wants low dust and no brake noise but it is just not feasible.

Why most people that are dedicated track addicts have a street pad and a dedicated track pad this way you can get the bite you need on track and not burn thru pads on track that were mostly designed for the street.

Running a ceramic pad on track repeatedly is not the best in terms of pad selection.

Swoope ran a test of his own with some Hawk ceramic pads at a track day and they were toast after one day...they glazed over after one session

Right pad for the right application, sometimes it is really challenging finding that happy medium in a brake pad.

Everyone wants low dust and no brake noise but it is just not feasible.

Why most people that are dedicated track addicts have a street pad and a dedicated track pad this way you can get the bite you need on track and not burn thru pads on track that were mostly designed for the street.

Makes sense, well I dont AutoX/Track my car YET lol so until then these pads will work :) I was looking for better than OEM and I found a good pad

Yeah, i didn't think i was going to be going to the track when i bought them. I bought them for a dual purpose street/autocross pads. Then i got hooked on track days and i'm not looking back.

I think i'm going to get a dedicated track pad that i can at least get home without having to swap pads at the track.

Mike aka topgear9 has been running the ET800's and loves them.

I have used the ET800 and ET900 and I am a huge fan of the ET900 but it was funny to see the look I got when I was driving in stop and go traffic.

They sounded like banshees...lol

Can you get me pads by Friday? I really wanted to try Carbotech xp10/xp8's but i'm not opposed to HT-10's or ET800 (or even 900's -- i just dont know much about them yet). A good deal could convince me ;)

Can you get me pads by Friday? I really wanted to try Carbotech xp10/xp8's but i'm not opposed to HT-10's or ET800 (or even 900's -- i just dont know much about them yet). A good deal could convince me ;)

Still try those Carbotechs. I really like mine, and I am running the XP-8.

You will be happy with the ET800's. There very similar to the HP+ but have a better initial bite. I actually got some brake fade out of the HP+, but have yet to have that happen with the ET800, great pad.

Can you get me pads by Friday? I really wanted to try Carbotech xp10/xp8's but i'm not opposed to HT-10's or ET800 (or even 900's -- i just dont know much about them yet). A good deal could convince me ;)

Of course I can!

I pm'd you.

Still try those Carbotechs. I really like mine, and I am running the XP-8.

I'll get those next time. I wanted to deal with a vendor i knew would send them out the door ASAP. I'm not familiar with a lot of the vendors that carry Carbotech pads besides Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development. I'm sure they could have got me the pads in time but Brice gave me a good deal on some ET800's plus i can guilt him into giving me big discounts next time if i don't get them by Friday ;)

I've been curious about the ET800's for a while now so this will satisfy my curiosity. Plus i will be able to directly compare them to the ET500's for the benefit of all.

oem pads aren't bad at all specially if you're only running a street tire. you can over heat them with slicks. it also really depends on the track if its high speed long sweeping corners or is a small go kart type track which is really hard on everything.
i really feel people under estimate how good the oem pads are for street/track use.

oem pads aren't bad at all specially if you're only running a street tire. you can over heat them with slicks. it also really depends on the track if its high speed long sweeping corners or is a small go kart type track which is really hard on everything.
i really feel people under estimate how good the oem pads are for street/track use.

Yeah i know OEM pads would probably be fine but they're already pretty low on material. I'd probably come close to finishing them off after the track day so i'd just need to buy new pads anyways. I'd rather have an back-up set laying around just in case -- they came in useful this time.

I'll get those next time. I wanted to deal with a vendor i knew would send them out the door ASAP. I'm not familiar with a lot of the vendors that carry Carbotech pads besides Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development. I'm sure they could have got me the pads in time but Brice gave me a good deal on some ET800's plus i can guilt him into giving me big discounts next time if i don't get them by Friday ;)

I've been curious about the ET800's for a while now so this will satisfy my curiosity. Plus i will be able to directly compare them to the ET500's for the benefit of all.

Thats what I am here for!

I look forward to the review as well.

And yes I am making more Mazdaspeed shirts :yumyum:, most likely in a month I should have them again.

Now with more colors!

Pads arrived today :)

I installed them and bedded them in and WOW they are so much better than the ET500's. I brushed them a few times out to an empty road them in so they weren't dead cold but my first stop from 70-10 was so surprising. These things really grip.

Even jabbing the brakes at like 40 stops the car so much more immediately than the ET500's. With the 500's I always felt like i had to push the pedal a little harder than i'd like to get the car to decelerate as much as i wanted. With the 800's i barely have to touch the pedal to decelerate. It's a lot easier to slow down and much more confidence inspiring.

No real squeaking at normal driving temps but on my last 70-10 i got a nice screech out of them. They were getting pretty hot though i could smell them real good at that point.

Tomorrow will be the real test. Track day at Hallett Motor Racing Circuit. Unfortunately we will be running clockwise instead of counter-clockwise. I was out there 4 weeks ago with the ET500s but we were running the the other direction so i wont have a direct comparison but i'll still get a good feel for them. I'm going to have to re-learn how to brake. The pedal pressure i'm used to will now trigger ABS really easily so i'm going to have to lighten up -- i think i officially need more tire for these brakes. Good thing mine are on their last leg :)

Brice, thanks for stocking great products and having super customer service.

So i'm completely convinced these pads are way better than the ET500's in every way. Even as a street pad these things are far better than the ET500's and OEM pads.

Track Performance:
At the track they performed very well. I bedded the pads in on the street but i dont think i got them good enough because they felt a little strange during the first session. The level of grip seemed to change multiple times during a single deceleration -- it was weird but it eventually went away. Once i got them settled in i really started to like them. They feel a lot like the ET500's do when you first initiate braking but once you really get your foot into it they seriously decelerate the car. Modulation is very easy and smooth and initial bite is pronounced yet smooth. You have to be more careful with the initial bite on these pads verses the ET500's. If you get on the brakes too hard too fast the they can bite and unsettle the car a bit. Nothing to worry about it just forces you to remember to be smooth.

Fade:
Even though Hallett is a pretty tough course on brakes I never really worried about fade because even the ET500's wouldn't fade ( and i like to brake deep ;) ) So flawless performance in the brake fade department. FYI Hallet has 6 braking zones and 5 of them i'm braking from the tip-top of 3rd down to as low as 30 mph. These 6 braking zones are all within ~1:35 (1.8 miles)

Dust:
These things dust hardcore (at least during high speed braking). I should have taken a picture before i washed them but my front wheels were absolutely black at the end of the day. The rears didn't dust nearly as much. The dust is a little hard to get off where there is a thicker deposit but i was able to get 99% of it off just using car soap and a wash mit. I'm not sure if they dust a lot during street braking but if i notice a lot of dust over the next week or so i'll let you know.

Noise:
No squeaking really. I think there was one time on the track they squeaked but it was insignificant -- i can't even remember the circumstances which they squeaked under :dunno: No squeaking during street driving either.

I can't think of anything else to say about these but i'm really happy with them and would recommend them. I'm not sure on wear yet or how harsh they are on rotors. Too early to tell i guess.

Good to know, thanks for that write up! :icon_tup:

Excellent! Glad you are happy with the pads :) I knew you wouldn't be disappointed. If you like to brake deep you should try out the et900 series lol AMAZING BITE!!

Excellent! Glad you are happy with the pads :) I knew you wouldn't be disappointed. If you like to brake deep you should try out the et900 series lol AMAZING BITE!!

haha, maybe next time :)

Update:

Wear: Terrible. 8x15min sessions over the course of two track days (not a full day the second time -- missed out on my last three sessions). Poof gone. That would be ~80 laps or ~240 hard stops or ~144 miles. Whichever way you look at it its terrible and a waste of my hard earned money.

Pic of rotor after metal on metal contact. Think they're alright? Should i get them turned? there are some pretty good gouges in there. I'm probably right at minimum rotor thickness, i'm not even sure if a shop would turn them.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/6466/p1016309u.jpg

pads, or whats left of them

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6006/p1016312.jpg

Are those the ET800 pads? How many miles on them?

Yikes. How deep are the grooves on the rotor?

wow...that's hard to look at... not sure how it is possible to do that is a few sessions, but there it is. So now you're likely faced with getting new rotors, but this time get some decent race ready pads... like Cobalt Friction race pads.... sure they cost a bit more but there's a reason.... they work, they last, and they wear oh so much longer than these that destroyed your brakes. Cheap just isn't worth it.

Are those the ET800 pads? How many miles on them?

Yes, ET800. 144 track miles and about 1000 street miles.

Yikes. How deep are the grooves on the rotor?

Not super deep. There are a bunch of small ones and then one big one. I dont have a good way of measuring it. Maybe about the thickness of 5-6 sheets of paper??? :dunno:

wow...that's hard to look at... not sure how it is possible to do that is a few sessions, but there it is. So now you're likely faced with getting new rotors, but this time get some decent race ready pads... like Cobalt Friction race pads.... sure they cost a bit more but there's a reason.... they work, they last, and they wear oh so much longer than these that destroyed you brakes. Cheap just isn't worth it.

They're not cheap, $250. I thought i was getting a track pad. Maybe not a Cobalt Friction or Carbotech pad but i figured it'd be close.

They're not cheap, $250. I thought i was getting a track pad. Maybe not a Cobalt Friction or Carbotech pad but i figured it'd be close.

Racing brake makes good stuff for sure, but the right tool for the job, and all that is paramount....ET800 doesn't even sound close to a track pad:

AGGRESSIVE STREET: ET800 - This compound is offered for the adventurous drivers who:

Do not like loud squeaking
Do not like a lot of dust
Do like extended rotor life
Being these pads are streetable therefore they are not intended for intensive and continuous hard braking over the temperature and speed limit (see chart) on the race track, otherwise excessive wear may occur. Check for pad wear frequently when using these pads on the track.

ET800 Series Characteristics:

Excellent Modulation
Consistent friction and torque output
Extended life if they are used under the temperature guide
Affordable pricing


...contrast that with this...

http://www.cobaltfriction.com ...read through the site, it's a good education, and their pads work both on and off the track (but although they discourage road use, I use them that way no problem for 3 yrs).... I've used their 'CSR type' all around, and their XR2, XR4, XR5 pads in combo over likely a thousand or more track miles...

An example is 2 day track event couple yrs ago when I 1st got them, alternating 1/2 hr sessions, 8 per day/4 hrs on track daily....and the XR2/XR5 combo I used must have worn some, but it was hard to tell. So I recommend that these type pads are just what you're looking for.... except they make some noise, they make some dust, and they cost a bit more. My latest set of XR2/XR4s were $338 and worth every penny.

Fair enough but when they advertise their ET900 pads as FULL RACE PADS!! OMG NO STREET USE!!! You'd think the ET800 wouldn't be complete crap. Plus most of those things they say about the ET800's are wrong anyways. They dust a shit ton, they squeal a lot and they dont allow for extended rotor wear because they vanish before your eyes causing the steel backing to rip into your rotors ;)

Not happy.

I have a set of Carbotechs in my shopping cart at Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development. Haven't pulled the trigger yet though. I guess i dont really need pads until the end of the month (next track day) and i might need new rotors. BBK? hehe.

As Spin9k pointed out this is mostly an issue of using a street performance pad for something it isn't appropriate for, the track. They wore out because you probably exceeded their thermal limits. By the way, if the rotor is still above minimum thickness those grooves aren't a problem. Most of what you are looking at is leftover pad deposits and not groove anyway. A couple of laps with a track pad and those "grooves" will lessen considerably. A couple of days with new street pads followed by a proper bedding procedure will also improve things. If you had never gone to the track you would probably be happy with the pads. As I pointed out in the Brake FAQ http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=167264 as your skills improve you will benefit by using dedicated track pads for your track days. People who say that street performance pads work at the track are either not pushing their car, or are driving at non-brake intensive tracks, or by "track" they mean autocross.

Check out
Carbotech XP series
Cobalt XR series
Hawk DTC series

As Spin9k pointed out this is mostly an issue of using a street performance pad for something it isn't appropriate for, the track. T By the way, if the rotor is still above minimum thickness those grooves aren't a problem. Most of what you are looking at is leftover pad deposits and not groove anyway. A couple of laps with a track pad and those "grooves" will lessen considerably. A couple of days with new street pads followed by a proper bedding procedure will also improve things. If you had never gone to the track you would probably be happy with the pads. As I pointed out in the Brake FAQ http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=167264 as your skills improve you will benefit by using dedicated track pads for your track days. People who say that street performance pads work at the track are either not pushing their car, or are driving at non-brake intensive tracks, or by "track" they mean autocross.

Check out
Carbotech XP series
Cobalt XR series
Hawk DTC series


hey wore out because you probably exceeded their thermal limits.

Really? 1400 degrees (which is the upper limit of the ET800's) is pretty sinking hot. Obviously i can't measure operating temps in real time but thinking i hit over 1400 degrees just blows my mind.

A couple of laps with a track pad and those "grooves" will lessen considerably.

I figured as much. They still feel fine and they look way better in this pic than they did when i swapped my OEM pads back in.

If you had never gone to the track you would probably be happy with the pads.

I agree, they really did stop well and provide fade free performance but i guess this means i'm becoming a better driver yay! :fruit: The session my brakes bit the dust i spent 5 laps fending off a 996 911 Turbo and got my best lap time of the day woo!


Now my question is....


DTC-60 or Carbotech XP10/XP8????

Not that i have anything against Cobalt Friction but i might be able to talk Racing Brake into selling me some DTC-60's at a discount and I can get Carbotechs from Mazda Motorsports Dev for $276.

Fair enough but when they advertise their ET900 pads as FULL RACE PADS!! OMG NO STREET USE!!! You'd think the ET800 wouldn't be complete crap.

You have to take these things in stride... be upset at those who recommended these to you for track use. They didn't know of what they were speaking obviously. Life is full of "Ah ha!.. OMG..." and "ah shit!" moments. Most learning occurs at that exact moment...occassionally the hard way....but fortunately in this case you and your car went unscathed, instead, your fun that day and your checking account were damaged. The valueable lesson you'll not forget... for the best advice, listen or ask people who do, not to those who sell or have only heresay to back up their advice. Nuf said.

Now my question is....


DTC-60 or Carbotech XP10/XP8????

Not that i have anything against Cobalt Friction but i might be able to talk Racing Brake into selling me some DTC-60's at a discount and I can get Carbotechs from Mazda Motorsports Dev for $276.

I only have personal experience with the Carbotechs and the Cobalts but I know from other people who have used them that the Hawk DTC series are good track pads. I use Cobalts on my RX8 and Carbotechs on our 24 Hours of Lemons Mitsubishi.

You have to take these things in stride... be upset at those who recommended these to you for track use.

I have. Brice is already helping me figure things out.

Life is full of "Ah ha!.. OMG..." and "ah shit!" moments.

LOL -- that's exactly what this is.

So i just talked to Racing Brake and they didn't even recommend their own pads for track use. They said get the DTC-60's. He said the ET900's are more durable than the ET800's but they're still not at the level of the DTC-60's.

So i just talked to Racing Brake and they didn't even recommend their own pads for track use. They said get the DTC-60's. He said the ET900's are more durable than the ET800's but they're still not at the level of the DTC-60's.

The only question then is whether to put DTC 60s at all 4 corners or a less aggressive DTC series in the rear. Spin 9k had a post about this recently in which Eric Meyer commented on the Hawk series. I'll see if I can find the link http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=196260&highlight=sticking . I use Cobalt XR1 front and XR5 rear in my RX8 and Carbotech XP12 front and XP8 rear in our Lemons Mitsubishi. The softer the suspension the less aggressive the pad in the rear in my opinion. If you are on coilovers you may be able to put the same on all 4 corners.

Ugly situation aside, what tires will you be installing?
I'm afraid that a race compound pad on street tires may be counter productive especially at the rear. Excessive wheel lock is never a good thing if it sets the abs on all the time!
I'd try a set of ht-10 pads all around and swap to hp+ on the rear if you have problems for track use. Their stopping power is about 2\3 of the Ht-10.

With the ht-10 you won't have problems with brake temperatures exceeding 540°c (more than 1000°F).

If you intend to buy semi slicks then you should be able to take advantage of the dtc compounds but again those may be overkill.

Just my .02c :)

I'm trying to kill off my Bridgestone RE050A Pole Position 255/40/18's. They WILL NOT die haha. I thought i was going to have to replace them 6 track days ago and they're still going strong.

Once they kick the bucket i'm going to get NT01 275/35/18 or something similar.

I do have coilovers but i'm not sure if i want to stagger the pads or not. I've not had an issue with running the same pads all the way around but then again i'm stepping into a new league in terms of brake pad compound.

I'm trying to kill off my Bridgestone RE050A Pole Position 255/40/18's. They WILL NOT die haha. I thought i was going to have to replace them 6 track days ago and they're still going strong.

Once they kick the bucket i'm going to get NT01 275/35/18 or something similar.

I do have coilovers but i'm not sure if i want to stagger the pads or not. I've not had an issue with running the same pads all the way around but then again i'm stepping into a new league in terms of brake pad compound.

Are you 100% sure that you need that size? :)
The bridgestones are die-hard tires, they become made of stone after some heat cycles and wear very slowly while their grip level sucks. I loved them!

By the way moving from a 255 to a 275 width tire will make matters worse for the rear brakes and, while they may be ok for some auto-x courses, they're overkill for a NA rx8 at the track.
Get them in 245\40 size and you'll be more than happy with the overall balance not being thrown up while braking and with the grip levels a semislick has.
You're moving from a summer tire to a semislick after all, increasing the size will just increase the amount of wasted power.

I never felt the need to get bigger tires than 245\40 r18 ones both grip and braking wise but that may be just me!

Ugly situation aside, what tires will you be installing?
I'm afraid that a race compound pad on street tires may be counter productive especially at the rear. Excessive wheel lock is never a good thing if it sets the abs on all the time!
I'd try a set of ht-10 pads all around and swap to hp+ on the rear if you have problems for track use. Their stopping power is about 2\3 of the Ht-10.

With the ht-10 you won't have problems with brake temperatures exceeding 540°c (more than 1000°F).

If you intend to buy semi slicks then you should be able to take advantage of the dtc compounds but again those may be overkill.

Just my .02c :)
The HT series (HT-10, HT-14) are legacy compounds and have been superceded by the DTC series. Based on the TS description of his experience, he will benefit from track pads even with his current tire selection, perhaps with a less aggressive pad in the rear.

No, Go big or go home. Or... maybe it's go big or go small ;)

I'm not set on 275's but i do have FI plans for next season or the season after so i'm not sure if i'd still even have these tires at that point. I dont want 245's for sure. They'd be a little stretched on a 9.5" wide wheel. I'd at least get 255's again.

How does the increase in tire size going to "make matters worse for the rear brakes"? Is it just the result of the increased grip/stopping power of the front having a more dramatic effect on lightening up the rear before turn in/during trail braking?

If that's the case and i do decide on wider tires i may get staggered pads.

I've been reading reviews on DTC-60's and it sounds like they wear fast as well. Maybe i'm back on the Carbotech bandwagon...

No, Go big or go home. Or... maybe it's go big or go small ;)

I'm not set on 275's but i do have FI plans for next season or the season after so i'm not sure if i'd still even have these tires at that point. I dont want 245's for sure. They'd be a little stretched on a 9.5" wide wheel. I'd at least get 255's again.

How does the increase in tire size going to "make matters worse for the rear brakes"? Is it just the result of the increased grip/stopping power of the front having a more dramatic effect on lightening up the rear before turn in/during trail braking?

If that's the case and i do decide on wider tires i may get staggered pads.

245s on a 9.5 wide rim may work especially since many semislicks are actually wider than what the paper says :)

You got the point of why the car may become tail-happy and the abs could kick in more often than before. 275 wheels also affect handling. The bigger the tires the slower the turn-in response.
Everything is a trade between an advantage or another when picking tire sizes, that's why I shared my little experience earlier. I'd try a set of 245\40 wheels before considering other sizes and in 2 years i'm sure that you'd be needing to change the tires again, FI or not so that's a moot point!

@justjim: thanks for the correction!

265/35/18 (245/40 would fit but are quite stretched) would be the best size for your 9.5" wheels IMHO. You pick up a bit of gearing advantage over 275s and I can attest to the fact that...

"the larger the tire, the slower the car" and I have track data to back it up...hence I'll never have 275/35/18s again...hells bells ...who wants to go slower still than we already do NA?! Beyond that the 265 has a bit better sidewall support with the 9.5s vs the 275s.

Lastly, NT-01s are great r-comps at an attractive price, you can drive them on the street no problem, or at least until they loose their tread mostly...so if that's the goal I can't think of a better tire with those concerns.

.....BUT :aroused:....in the "you get what you pay for dept" (again)... BFG R1 are in a league well above the Nitto's performance. I've owned two sets of NT-01s so please understand I appreciate what they do, but they can't hold a candle to the grip of the R1s. My2c - go for the gold - get the R1s - relish the grip - and splurge on the Cobalts while you're at it. Come back after a couple track days and tell me they both aren't worth every single penny :yumyum:

Decisions decisions :lol2:

If i go with Carbotechs i'm going to go XP10 in front and XP8 in rear. But if i get DTC-60's should i stagger them by running a different compound in the rear? If so what do you all suggest?

Don't know which of these are available for the RX8 but here's Hawk's track compound list http://www.hawkperformance.com/motorsports/compounds/index.php . One of the reasons I like Carbotech and Cobalt is I can call them up and talk to the people that make the compounds and test them. That's a plus in my book.

^ ah men....call Cobalt for example and ask for tech support. You don't get an idiot and a phone, you get a friendly person who is happy to relate advice based on race team feedback, or give you setup advice on a "been there, it's been tried and here's what happens and why." Informed decisions, are best so why not understand what you're getting? But you already know that. I called and explained I had an RX-8 and my driving skill and listened and learned.

If the grooves aren't super deep, I would just run the rotors still. Unless there are BIG cracks, it'll be fine, unless you enjoy buying parts :)

Also, CARBOTECH.

Thats the plan.

I do like buying parts but i'd rather buy parts when i plan to buy them. Not oh sh*t i need to drop a chunk of dough on pads and rotors.

Thats the plan.

I do like buying parts but i'd rather buy parts when i plan to buy them. Not oh sh*t i need to drop a chunk of dough on pads and rotors.

BUT....having an accident because your brakes crapped out is being stupid ;)

They won't let you on the track with less than 1/2 pads if they do a decent tech anyway :)

Well, yeah. Pads weren't really my fault. They had a lot of meat on them when i started the day. They would have passed any tech inspection. They're just utter crap under track conditions. As for rotors i haven't decided if they need replacing or not (regardless of the scoring). I just know they're getting kind of thin and they're now scored which makes me think it's almost time to change them.

Use a micrometer and measure them...under minimum thickness...replace them :)

If you are going to track..a big part of the budget is for brake stuff.....new fluid, pads, and rotors will be a common replacements.

Sometimes even motorsports pads only last a day or 2.....

And rotors...well that depends on which ones you have.....

Use a micrometer and measure them...under minimum thickness...replace them :)

If you are going to track..a big part of the budget is for brake stuff.....new fluid, pads, and rotors will be a common replacements.

Sometimes even motorsports pads only last a day or 2.....

And rotors...well that depends on which ones you have.....

A-men above. Brake pads are a consumable. We will go through 2 sets a weekend front and rear both. Rear is not worn well but the additional braking capability of a new rear pad is noticable.

One thing you can do (and I haven't read all this thread so I don't know if you've done it) is remove those stupid metal dust shield/rock guards on the back of the rotor. Dump them. Crap can them. Period. Don't even debate me on this please.

The next thing I'd do is to duct cool air to the fronts. This will greatly extend pad AND rotor life----regardless of what brake pad compound you use.

Lastly, it is quite possible you are exceeding the operating temp ceiling of your current brake pad(s). Here is a wonderful chart which WHY there are different compounds for different applications. For our race car running a 235 888 Toyo and a medium/stiff setup we have found the DTC 60/60 works best (for me). A 60F and 10R. A 70/60 is a bit grabby but stops on 9 cents coming off the high bank at Daytona at 140+.

Brake pads are a tuning tool and using what the "other guys" use may not work all the time. More demanding tracks, driving style (probably the biggest variable), available grip and pad thickness are all huge variables that you have to factor into the mix.

Word of advice for all of you. Just as Danno offers above, a brake pad is a consumable. Oil is a consumable. Gas is a consumable. Tires are a consumable. Stock up and bring consumables with you to the track. I have found after years and years of coaching new drivers that not having sufficient brake pad material is probably the first issue a new driver encounters. It can, and does ruin your weekend. The last 50% of pad wears much faster than the first 50%. The last 20-30% can wear lickity split----especially for a new driver who typically uses way too much brake everywhere. Driven correctly you don't need much brake use on these cars on the track. Pad wear is very good on these cars (as opposed to big V-8 Mustangs) because all 4 wheels are providing braking help due to the great balance of the RX-8's engine/chassis.

Hope that helps all of you.

Happy rotoring.

One thing you can do (and I haven't read all this thread so I don't know if you've done it) is remove those stupid metal dust shield/rock guards on the back of the rotor. Dump them. Crap can them. Period. Don't even debate me on this please.

The next thing I'd do is to duct cool air to the fronts. This will greatly extend pad AND rotor life----regardless of what brake pad compound you use.


I have not done it. Great to know though. Next time i'm under my car those things are gone. I've been meaning to do the brake cooling ducts but i just haven't -- i have no excuses now, its a must.

-especially for a new driver who typically uses way too much brake everywhere. Driven correctly you don't need much brake use on these cars on the track. Pad wear is very good on these cars (as opposed to big V-8 Mustangs) because all 4 wheels are providing braking help due to the great balance of the RX-8's engine/chassis.

I've been following the idea you laid out in this post:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=188727&highlight=hawk

Brake late and brake hard. Which is it? Brake more or brake less? Maybe i'm misinterpreting what you're getting at.

Thanks!

You have to take these things in stride... be upset at those who recommended these to you for track use. They didn't know of what they were speaking obviously. Life is full of "Ah ha!.. OMG..." and "ah shit!" moments. Most learning occurs at that exact moment...occassionally the hard way....but fortunately in this case you and your car went unscathed, instead, your fun that day and your checking account were damaged. The valueable lesson you'll not forget... for the best advice, listen or ask people who do, not to those who sell or have only heresay to back up their advice. Nuf said.

I have used both the ET800 and ET900's on my RX-8 at track before but, they were never used on a brake intensive track though.

So i just talked to Racing Brake and they didn't even recommend their own pads for track use. They said get the DTC-60's. He said the ET900's are more durable than the ET800's but they're still not at the level of the DTC-60's.

Yeah they recently changed their "classification" of the ET800 and ET900 pad from Track pad to Street Pad. They have a new pad that will be comparable to the DTC series pad in the future which will be their "track" pad.

I have not done it. Great to know though. Next time i'm under my car those things are gone. I've been meaning to do the brake cooling ducts but i just haven't -- i have no excuses now, its a must.

I've been following the idea you laid out in this post:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=188727&highlight=hawk

Brake late and brake hard. Which is it? Brake more or brake less? Maybe i'm misinterpreting what you're getting at.

Thanks!

Brake Less, I cannot remember whose car I was riding in but his style was completely different from what I had seen used before. He would drive hard through all the turns using no brakes and letting the car flow thru the turns. We were driving close to 90mph-110 mph around turns that I had been going 60mph-70mph around. When it was a must to brake he did it as late as possible and extremely hard and short to not disrupt the cars flow.

He was also using Hp Plus pads as well which was surprising to me, but then again he was hardly on his brakes he used the flow of the car very well and was pushing it to its limit.

That 15 minute ride was the most enlightening ride I have taken to date.

^Pretty sure your talking about Nabil AKA TrackAddict.

I've been following the idea you laid out in this post:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=188727&highlight=hawk

Brake late and brake hard. Which is it? Brake more or brake less? Maybe i'm misinterpreting what you're getting at.

Thanks!

My Zen master says, "Braking is only for when you MUST slow down, elsewize it's (literally) a waste of time". Having been required many yrs ago at a Watkins Glenn DE to drive an entire 25min session, along with everyone else, using NO BRAKES AT ALL on the entire course (emergencies excepted), appreciation of what CAN be done, when one MUST do it, is now instilled in me. An extremely valueable lesson in hindsight I might add! You MUST really look way up ahead and plan for corners way ahead under these circumstances!

Braking is a self preservation instinct that isn't always necessary. Try this exercise at your next track day... start the session by driving the course without using brakes, do that by driving slowly enough that brakes aren't required, in your own best judgement. Then progressively and resolutely, throughout the rest of the session... increase overall AND cornering speeds without using brakes. You'll be totally amazed at what speed is possible cornering and how it makes the circuit flow better.

You'll find that your mad rush to "accelerate and brake, accelerate and brake" may simply NOT be the best (or fastest) way around a circuit. So after that no brakes lap or three.... attempt to combine the best of the *no braking* flow with MINIMAL use of brakes over the shortest distances (hard and fast braking), but only when ABSOLUTELY necessary, in your own judgement. The 'no brakes' lesson should have reduced your 'self preservation' instinct braking, and your lap time should steadily improve as a result of higher cornering speeds giving higher straightaway speeds and improved lap times.

One of the benefits of this attitude about braking is that your brakes WILL last much longer :naughty:

I have 5 Braking zones on my home track. Two of them i have to brake hard for sure and one other hard braking zone i might be able to lighten up on but it's still a 180 degree turn. I'm not sure how to get more speed out of a 180 degree flat turn besides coming in at the perfect entry speed, perfect maintenance throttle and perfect line (combo of best line and best pavement).

One of the hard braking zones is from 95 down to 20 something so its hard to avoid braking hard for that one :lol2:. The only way to screw it up is to over cook it, it's pretty much a throw away turn but going deep will slow you down. The second is a little trickier. I have to get on the brakes hard or my car will understeer which will throw me right off line. It's amazing how going deep and slightly missing the apex is SO much slower than taking the right line, cutting the curbing and being able to get on the gas full throttle WAY earlier. The car feels like a gutless tank if i do it wrong but feels like a little mosquito if i do it right.

All the other turns are 60-75 mph turns that i could probably lighten up on and be a little more "flowing". I need more time and confidence though. This track is still pretty new to me. They run it clockwise and couter-clockwise so it's harder for me to learn it because they keep switching it up on me!! :lol:

Why is it so important to remove the brake dust covers? Cooling?

Janzten - what track are you talking about?

Why is it so important to remove the brake dust covers? Cooling?


They hold in heat....and dust :) Neither is good for anything but a street driven car :)

I have noticed without the shields you need clean the calipers a bit more, not sure why really....but routine cleaning and lubrication of floating calipers is a must if you expect them to preform to optimum

Brakes are something you need to get very comfortable with doing yourself unless you have deep pockets and can afford a mechanic at the track...or else you will end a lot of days early...or try and push the last bit out of the pads...that becomes a bit like Russian Roulette....

The club I drive with most often...and that I do Tech Inspections with....won't allow less than 50% pads at the start of the day for anything but the Novice group

Janzten - what track are you talking about?

Hallett Motor Racing Circuit (http://www.hallettracing.net)

Excellent post. My Zen master says, "Braking is only for when you MUST slow down, elsewize it's (literally) a waste of time". Having been required many yrs ago at a Watkins Glenn DE to drive an entire 25min session, along with everyone else, using NO BRAKES AT ALL on the entire course (emergencies excepted), appreciation of what CAN be done, when one MUST do it, is now instilled in me. An extremely valueable lesson in hindsight I might add! You MUST really look way up ahead and plan for corners way ahead under these circumstances!

Braking is a self preservation instinct that isn't always necessary. Try this exercise at your next track day... start the session by driving the course without using brakes, do that by driving slowly enough that brakes aren't required, in your own best judgement. Then progressively and resolutely, throughout the rest of the session... increase overall AND cornering speeds without using brakes. You'll be totally amazed at what speed is possible cornering and how it makes the circuit flow better.

You'll find that your mad rush to "accelerate and brake, accelerate and brake" may simply NOT be the best (or fastest) way around a circuit. So after that no brakes lap or three.... attempt to combine the best of the *no braking* flow with MINIMAL use of brakes over the shortest distances (hard and fast braking), but only when ABSOLUTELY necessary, in your own judgement. The 'no brakes' lesson should have reduced your 'self preservation' instinct braking, and your lap time should steadily improve as a result of higher cornering speeds giving higher straightaway speeds and improved lap times.

One of the benefits of this attitude about braking is that your brakes WILL last much longer :naughty:

Hallett Motor Racing Circuit (http://www.hallettracing.net)
This track?
http://www.na-motorsports.com/Tracks/OK/images/hallett/hallett.gif

This looks like a track where, at least when running counter-clockwise, you should have only 2 hard braking zones while during the other turns you should be able to touch the brakes just to slow down\balance the car. It doesn't look very wide though from the pics on the net so maybe i'm wrong :)

Yes, that's it. Unfortunately that map shows corner station numbers and not turn numbers.

One other hard braking zone i might be able to lighten up on but it's still a 180 degree turn. I'm not sure how to get more speed out of a 180 degree flat turn besides coming in at the perfect entry speed, perfect maintenance throttle and perfect line (combo of best line and best pavement).


I'm talking about turn 10 here (by corner station 10 and 11)


One of the hard braking zones is from 95 down to 20 something so its hard to avoid braking hard for that one :lol2:. The only way to screw it up is to over cook it, it's pretty much a throw away turn but going deep will slow you down.


I;m referring to turn 2 here (corner station 3)



The second is a little trickier. I have to get on the brakes hard or my car will understeer which will throw me right off line. It's amazing how going deep and slightly missing the apex is SO much slower than taking the right line, cutting the curbing and being able to get on the gas full throttle WAY earlier. The car feels like a gutless tank if i do it wrong but feels like a little mosquito if i do it right.


Turns 7,8,9 (also referred to as "The Bitch"). Or from the straight passed corner stations 8 and 9.

I see now :)
Well, my car is set up as to oversteer so that instead of going wide I can try to keep the line by just letting the tires slide and correct the line with the steering wheel. This helped me reduce the use of the brakes and is the reason why I am generally against very wide tires (265 and up).

Here are some pics from my GoPro when i put it on picture mode on accident :lol2: You can get a better idea of the track layout and width. It's not a very wide track but it has it's moments.

Turn 1 -- ~105 braking to ~75 mph
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8362/gopr0045.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/gopr0045.jpg/)

Coming out of turn 2 -- ~25-30 mph
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6172/gopr0054.jpg (http://img708.imageshack.us/i/gopr0054.jpg/)

Turn 4 to turn 5 -- no idea of my speed here
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7947/gopr0062.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/gopr0062.jpg/)

Going through Turn 5
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/1324/gopr0064.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/gopr0064.jpg/)

Turn 6
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/2739/gopr0068.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/gopr0068.jpg/)

Approaching 'The Bitch'
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/2919/gopr0073.jpg (http://img28.imageshack.us/i/gopr0073.jpg/)

Braking zone for turn 9
http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/2931/gopr0077m.jpg (http://img265.imageshack.us/i/gopr0077m.jpg/)

Coming out of turn 10
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/8315/gopr0088.jpg (http://img294.imageshack.us/i/gopr0088.jpg/)

OK guys, heres the deal. Racing Brake offered to sell me a set of ET900's for $154 (50% off) since i had such poor luck with the ET800s. Do i risk the chance of blasting through these like i did with the ET800's or should i not waste my time and get Carbotechs for $276?

I'm torn. I'd like to think the ET900's would be a more appropriate pad than the ET800's but i just cant be sure until i try them. I'm thinking about skipping out on the deal and just going for the sure thing.

Thoughts?

You get what you pay for...

:scratchhe I'm confused. The ET900's are usually $308 and the Carbotechs are $276. So what are you sayin?

Just trying to figure out if the ET900's will hold up long enough to be worth the discounted price of $154

I'd try the ET900's........

I'd say go for them ...then we'll all know. What have you got to loose anyway? I mean, $154 is half the cost of decent pads...who knows...you might catch a break :wink2:

ps.. also cudos to RB for offering

I think i'll give them a shot. Better compound, some brake cooling ducts, no dust shields... should work out better than last time around. I can't promise i'll brake less but i'll try ;)

Most likely hitting the track at the end of the month so i'll let you know how they work out.

OK guys, heres the deal. Racing Brake offered to sell me a set of ET900's for $154 (50% off) since i had such poor luck with the ET800s. Do i risk the chance of blasting through these like i did with the ET800's or should i not waste my time and get Carbotechs for $276?

I'm torn. I'd like to think the ET900's would be a more appropriate pad than the ET800's but i just cant be sure until i try them. I'm thinking about skipping out on the deal and just going for the sure thing.

Thoughts?

I have used them, for the price you are getting them for I would do it.

Let me know how you like them.

Having finished the second (and last ) weekend for a set of ET800s, I can attest that Jantzen's experience was dead on. The pads have great bite, but they literally evaporate on track. One exuberant weekend on Shenandoah, one-and-a-half days on Thunderbolt, the front pads were down almost to the rivets, back pads at 1/3rd original. The "Get 'er home!" 1/2 worn HP Ceramics I'd taken off and racked in the track kit saved the day. :)

Folks, there is no excuse for wrecking rotors on a track day. A simple "no-go" gauge and looking at the brakes EVERY TIME you come off-track will tell you what's happening with the pads before you start gouging up a $500 super-slotted cross-drilled.

http://strikersdomain.org/Pics/tool/tool-1.jpg

Yep. That's all it is. A cheapie Lowes flat-tip screwdriver and a piece of painter's tape.



http://strikersdomain.org/Pics/tool/tool-2.jpg

Using the "squealer" on the back brake pad, eyeball the backer plate and depth of the squealer, then just place a wrap of painter's tape around the blade to mark it.



http://strikersdomain.org/Pics/tool/tool-3.jpg

I don't have a good shot of this from the car, so bear with me. After a run, just take the taped 'driver and stick it in a gap around the brake pad in the caliper, hold the tip against the rotor, and then lean the blade against the edge of the backer plate.




http://strikersdomain.org/Pics/tool/tool-4.jpg

The area of tape between the line and the bare tip, shows you the depth of the remaining pad material over the rivets.


One other thing you can see before things go bad with the pads. When the material is getting thin over the rivets, there is a lot of heat buildup in that area. A normal rotor has a uniform color from edge to hub. When the pad is worn almost to the rivets, you can see a stripe or different colored haze on the rotor from the hotter material over the rivets.

My $.02 on the subject. :)

^^^ good tips.

My ET900's are on their way. Dust shield removal and cooling ducts are happening tomorrow. Next track day is next saturday. I'm looking forward to trying these things out. Hopefully they last a few more days than the last set.

^^^ good tips.

My ET900's are on their way. Dust shield removal and cooling ducts are happening tomorrow. Next track day is next saturday. I'm looking forward to trying these things out. Hopefully they last a few more days than the last set.

What are you using for the ducts?

Home depot special ;)

Simliar to to Spin's DIY http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=83801&highlight=diy+brake+cooling+ducts

I got the dust shields off and the ducts fabbed up and installed. I didn't take the dust shields off on the back for a couple of reasons. 1) because rotors are a bitch to remove and i was sick of it after the front two 2) There are a lot of rubber bushings near the rear brakes and i'm not sure if the shield protected them from heat etc. 3) My rear pads aren't wearing like my fronts were so i figured they were less of an issue.

I got my pads really quick from RB and i installed them while i had everything pulled apart. I haven't done anything besides run to Starbucks this morning so the only conclusions i've drawn is they can be driven on the street no problem. Cold bite is fine. I'll bed them in and see how well they work soon and report back.

BTW, I took my rotors to a shop to see if they would turn them. They would not because they were down to ~.89 and minimum is ~.87. Realistically how much longer should i run these? I go to the track once a month and drive ~ 1000 per month including track miles. I need tires too so i'm trying to space things out here :lol2:

That's quite a bit of use you do.... I'd get the RB slotted 1-piece stock replacements at least....only $126 each - and well suited to the heat and extremes of race track use than cheaper PepBoy/wheever type rotors. Something that I do every now and then is take a metal straightedge and hold it across the rotor surface and shine a small light back under the ruler to see how much uneven wear there is. If it's got excessive valleys and areas of wear, I'd be more worried about causing uneven wear on the new pads you got and order up the rotors so you can pretty much start over new and keep everything in good condition longer.

My RB 2-piece got replaced this season (3ys old) as they were wearing quite a bit more in a band towards the center of the rotor where the slots weren't. The new RB ones I got have a different slot design that extends further towards the center of the rotor and cover the whole of where the pad rubs. They must have been aware and that should solve the wear issue.

youare lucky you didn't burn off the rubber boots on the calipers....My friend recently just did that same thing to his pads on the track and he destroyed the boots on his front calipers and severely grooved the rotors as well.

That's quite a bit of use you do.... I'd get the RB slotted 1-piece stock replacements at least....only $126 each - and well suited to the heat and extremes of race track use than cheaper PepBoy/wheever type rotors. Something that I do every now and then is take a metal straightedge and hold it across the rotor surface and shine a small light back under the ruler to see how much uneven wear there is. If it's got excessive valleys and areas of wear, I'd be more worried about causing uneven wear on the new pads you got and order up the rotors so you can pretty much start over new and keep everything in good condition longer.

My RB 2-piece got replaced this season (3ys old) as they were wearing quite a bit more in a band towards the center of the rotor where the slots weren't. The new RB ones I got have a different slot design that extends further towards the center of the rotor and cover the whole of where the pad rubs. They must have been aware and that should solve the wear issue.

I think i'd sport for the 2-piece actually. I've had my eye on those for a while and it's not like you replace rotors that often so i'd rather get the ones i want and spend a little extra dough.

I dont think i'll be going to the track in July so i'm going to squeak by on these rotors for Saturday's track day and then replace them before my August track day. They'll be fine for street driving for a while but i definitely want to replace them before my next (probably august) track day.

Just wondering if you think the Racing Brake stock size 4-pot caliper upgrade would be worth it some time down the road? Or should i just get the RB BBK instead of all of these options? :lol2:

I haven't looked into it that much, just curious.

Race teams just use the OEM calipers, apparently they're bullet proof, and I don't know of any design, no matter how expensive, that'll improve significantly upon the excellent braking we have already.

The only saving grace(s) for caliper upgrades are looks and weight savings, and of course that depends on how much $$ you're willing to spend :hahano:.

Myself, with 17" RPF-01s, and 255 BFG R1s, I'm down to 38.4lbs/wheel - approx a 10lb savings, plus another 4.4lbs from the 2-piece rotors, so total ~14lbs off per corner, and I just couldn't justify the high cost for just the add'l weight saving.

But there Purdy ;)

And easier to change brake pads....Oh..and did I say they are Purdy ;)

And lighter...and aluminum...so they dump heat faster......

A lot of the race teams that use them do so because they have to as well....most stock class racing doesn't allow brake caliper changes :)

So the ET900's seem to be better than the ET800's so far. Like i said, i can drive on the street no problem with them other than an occasional squeal at low speeds when they're cold. Cold grip seems to be fine. Maybe a little less bite at cold temps than the ET800's but still a strong bite.

As for the track, they performed well. Stopping power was about the same as the ET800's. Maybe a bit better actually. I picked up a lot of speed on the 2nd straight which leads to sharpest corner on the track (25 mph). Last time i was at the top of third and this time i was in 4th for a while before braking. I'd say i picked up at least 10 mph but i'm still braking at the same point. So if anything they have a bit better grip than the ET800's. They didn't necessarily feel grippier though -- hard to explain.

They didn't seem to wear as fast as the ET800's. I haven't removed them yet but it looked like there was still quite a bit of meat left on them after 5x15 min sessions. I'm still skeptical though, i'm not convinced they're going to last me. They dont seem to dust as much as the ET800's either. That could be because i'm not wearing through the pads as quickly but dust is definitely less.

The one thing i did notice that i didn't like about these was the fact that the rear got twitchy under braking, especially trail braking. Trail braking got really sketchy unless i released perfectly. I found they were much less forgiving if you needed to pull the braking a little into the corner. My ET800 rear pads are still in pretty good shape so i might try swapping them in to see if it makes a difference.

Good you and your brakes survived this event at least. To help the trail braking issue one thing would be try pads of different grip/grip profile front to rear, less in the rear to give (compared to the front) less braking force therefore more lateral stick while turning and braking. Result = less oversteer, more stable trail braking. Maybe next time when you replace those ET900s w/better pads.

I echo what Spin9k says. Because of the load shift under high speed braking at the track a less aggressive pad at the rear helps. That's why I recommended Carbotech XP10 or XP12s up front and XP8s in the rear or Cobalt XR1 or XR2 up front and XR5 in ther rear. I feel this is particulary important if you are on a stock suspension.

The ET900s WILL NOT last you at the track. I just finished a two-day event with the Schattenbaum Porsche Club. The ET900 pads were installed on the 16th and the track days were the 17-18th at New Jersey Motorsports Park. After four -20 min sessions on Thursday at Thunderbolt, the ET900 fronts were on their last leg. I ended up doing one run on them Friday morning at Lightning before the pads were completely gone and I had to pull into the paddock running on the backing plates in the front. The pads just don't have the proper wear characteristics for a track pad. I will now be using Carbotechs or Hawk DTC compounds. Hopefully I get better wear out of these pads.

Great, sounds like i wasted my $154.

Maybe they should change their name to Lightly Driving Brake instead of Racing Brake. This is getting ridiculous.

Yea that does suck, and I'm suprised as I think highly of RB rotors. Didn't realize their pads were crapola. It bears saying again that there's nothing better - and in the long run nothing cheaper - than the best stuff you can get.

Example - here are my Cobalt XR2/XR5's taken out of service this spring after 9 months and maybe 20 intermediate and advanced track hrs - NJMP Thunderbolt and Lightning, Tremblant, NHMS, Watkins Glen. Definitely some use left. Just saying....

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/DSC02817sm.jpg

PPF's or Carbotech are both good stuff.

I usually get about 4 3-hour track days (12 hours track time) out of the front Cobalts or front Carbotechs in my RX8 (the rears last a lot longer). And that's not down to the rivets, just getting close enough so that I buy a new set for the next event. Slightly different vehicle but our FWD Mitsubishi 3000 GT Lemons racer got through the first 9.5 hour race day of a 2-day race and looked like it could have done 2 more hours on the Carbotechs up front but we replaced them that night so we wouldn't need to change pads on the second day during the race. That's consistent with my track day experience.

It might be worth stating, and this goes for all pads, that the wear rate is not linear. When you have half of a pad thickness left you have less than half of the pad life left. The further they wear down the faster the wear rate is. Also check for rivets, most track pads have rivets and they stick up about 1/8 inch from the backing plate so when you have 1/8 left you are down to the rivet head and done.

^ interesting you should mention the wear rate and rivets in pads. Those in the pic I posted earlier were just starting to open up the holes showing that some of the rivets were about to be exposed. That's why I took them out of service, but anyway.... after getting the new ones I called Cobalt and asked about what wear, and how long I could reasonably expect to use the pads. I mentioned the rivets appearing thu the pad material and all.

What they said.... the pads were ok until there was 4mm material left. They said the rivets they used were a special alloy that would NOT scar or wear rotor surface and so they were useable until the 4mm, regardless of the rivets being there and exposed and wearing down. This was news to me and I though quite interesting that they had considered even such a thing as that in their development and engineering of their race pads.

Additionally, beyond that they said, and their web site lists specs for their race pads with a "Pad Wear Rate-of-Change from New-to-End of Life". For their pads they are <10% for XR1/2 and <5% for XR3/4/5. These low percentages are exemplary and of course mean you get more real use from what you pay for.

That's good to know about the Cobalts. I should probably ask Danny at Carbotech about their rivets and wear rate.

bump

ET900's wear just as bad as the ET800's i have less than half a pad left after one track day. Looks like i have to buy more pads and now i'm just stuck with some squeaky street pads :lol2: Not that i was expecting any less... anyways moving on.

My car is getting the whole shi-bang before the next track day in August. New pads, rotors and some stainless steel lines. I'm debating between the DBA 4000 rotors or the Racing Brake one piece (decided on keeping things economical with one-piece rotors). I'm pretty sure the Racing Brake rotors will provide provide better cooling but i've heard the DBA are super durable. I'm just not convinced the "Kangaroo Paw" ventilation is even close to being as effective as curved vane.

Another factor in choosing the right rotor is what pads i can run with them. I know it may sound strange but i've read about people having issues with some compounds on RB rotors (pad deposits etc). RB even has a disclaimer that you should only use Hawk pads with their rotors. But unfortunately i haven't researched Hawk compounds that much so it's back to the drawing board on that front.

If i did get RB rotors i'd stick with Hawk just because i'm sick of brake pad issues and dont want to chance it. What do you all think the longest lasting Hawk pad would be? I know the Hawk Blue is an old compound but i have a buddy who drives an E36 M3 hard and fast on RE01R's and they've lasted him all season -- they dont even dust that much! Should i run HT-10's all around or maybe DTC60/HT-10? DTC-60 all around? I dont know. I feel cursed when it comes to brake pads now. Someone else make my decision for me ;)

To throw a wrench in everything i picked up a set of 17x9.5 wheels with 255/40/17 BFG R1. I needed tires, wanted to downsize and it was a friggen steal. But now i have to take my new super grippy tires into consideration while shopping for brakes. HALP!:Wconfused

Blues are super old, and not even that good compared to the DTC series.

I know.

I'm seriously leaning towards Cobalt XR2/XR5's now. Seems like a lot of people are having good pad life with them.

DON'T BUY THE ET900s!!! I have posted in another thread about my experience with Racing Brake pads. I was at the same Shenandoah event as Striker-7. I managed to use up the front pads in just four sessions that day. I'm a lot heavier on the brakes than an experienced driver but I still found the pad wear to be unacceptable. I then talked to RB and they gave me a 40% discount on the ET900s. I caved and bought them. My next event was on June 17th-18th at New Jersey Motorsports park. The ET900s managed to last the first track day at Thunderbolt and then the following morning they were finished. I had extreme wear from both series of pads. They don't have the heat range required for repetitive track use. I have below some pictures of my ET800 pads after one track day at Shenandoah. You be the judge. The one pad was completely gone and the damage you see is from driving home on that pad. They were too hot at the track to change and I had obligations that night forcing me to drive home on them. I'll let you guys be the judge. This wear was after approximetly 110 track miles and 170 street driven miles on the pads.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/ThePunisher522/2010-05-16113321.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/ThePunisher522/2010-05-16113355.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/ThePunisher522/2010-05-16113342.jpg

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e187/ThePunisher522/2010-05-16113328.jpg

That's just pathetic :icon_no2:

Wow.

Caliper is the problem there, bad bad bad. Have them both rebuilt to save yeself some more trouble.

Caliper is the problem there, bad bad bad. Have them both rebuilt to save yeself some more trouble.

I agree, that totally worn pad is likely an indication you have a stuck caliper slide pin(s). Take the caliper off, pull the pins completely out so they are not part of the caliper. That's how you can see if these slide pins are greased, loose and free. At least one pin has a rubber collar that can cause binding if swollen or if the rubber has moved on the pin shaft or the grease is gone. You can do this yourself unless the pins are totally frozen and you can't get it out.

Your wear is still unaccectable and severe, but that one pad is totally gone for another reason, like the pins.

i dont believe that to be the issue with mine. I thoroughly inspected everything the last time i changed pads.

^ we're refering to Gdawg522's pics... you just need some Cobalts :evil_laug

yeah i wasn't sure :lol2:

I'm calling Cobalt today :D:

edit: wow, i must not have looked at gdawgz's pics very closely. Yes, there is definitely something wrong going on there.

I'm planning on doing just that before my next event. Is there a special type of grease that will need to be put on those pins? I will be fitting the Hawk HT-12s and HT-10s this weekend. I will let you all know my initial impressions. Hopefully I can get rid of all the old, crappy Racing Brake deposits on the rotors. The Hawks were only $250 for front and rear. Hopefully they have better wear. Stay tuned.

Someone else on here posted that some brake compounds have a destructive effect on new pads when changing brands. This is absolutely correct, when we changed pads on our 8, I had the tech lightly turn the rotors before installing the new pads to remove any of the former pads material. The misses has a very light foot when braking and I believe she has gone thru 5 track days with the same pads, those days are usually 80 to 100 miles a session. The pads are a little over half gone now.
The boss is no slouch goin around the track either, JantzenRX8 knows who I'm talking about. :)

I use the high temp one of these... They sell little packets of it at PepBoys
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/grease1.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/grease2.jpg

I use the high temp one of these... They sell little packets of it at PepBoys
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/grease1.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/spin9k/grease.jpg

You use them on the clips right ?

I put some other grease on the clips of my FC, but never with these stuff, guess Im ok right ?

I use the Ceramic Extreme on everything.... caliper pins, the pad clips, and the backs of the pads/shims as described in the service manual. The service manual separated it out to use rubber grease on some, and brake grease on other things, but this stuff can do both.

description as "other grease" nycgps, isn't enough info to comment on whether it is ok or not

I use the Ceramic Extreme on everything.... caliper pins, the pad clips, and the backs of the pads/shims as described in the service manual. The service manual separated it out to use rubber grease on some, and brake grease on other things, but this stuff can do both.
description as "other grease" nycgps, isn't enough info to comment on whether it is ok or not
What area of the clip did you put the goop on?

What area of the clip did you put the goop on?

Ok, well the clip clips on to the caliper - no grease needed. Then take a Qtip and dab a SMALL bit o'grease inside the clip where the pad's positioning tabs will fit and (!) slide back and forth, being careful not to get any on (near) the rotor.

BTW when I did this a bit ago I put way too much grease on the pad/shim surfaces and it ooozzzed out and I had to clean up all the overflow. So use an adequate but not generous amount of grease only! Check after 1st drive to be sure there's no overflow squeezed out around the shims. If so use a Qtip to clean any excess. Don't forget to check the INSIDE pads for overflow - a bit difficult but if you have any on the outside you'll have it on the inside. Seems to work fine, doesn't burn up even under track conditions, and very little noise even with full on race pads on the street. Oh yea, it's a nice PURPLE color.

Ok, well the clip clips on to the caliper - no grease needed. Then take a Qtip and dab a SMALL bit o'grease inside the clip where the pad's positioning tabs will fit and (!) slide back and forth, being careful not to get any on (near) the rotor.

BTW when I did this a bit ago I put way too much grease on the pad/shim surfaces and it ooozzzed out and I had to clean up all the overflow. So use an adequate but not generous amount of grease only! Check after 1st drive to be sure there's no overflow squeezed out around the shims. If so use a Qtip to clean any excess. Don't forget to check the INSIDE pads for overflow - a bit difficult but if you have any on the outside you'll have it on the inside. Seems to work fine, doesn't burn up even under track conditions, and very little noise even with full on race pads on the street. Oh yea, it's a nice PURPLE color.
Excellent, thanks.