I am writing this to solicit your input as customers, and as my friends on this forum.

When we first started our project to build the Canzoomer Tuning Computers, we had some specific goals in mind:

1) I personally decided to keep my car, not take Mazda up on the buyback offer, and to spend up to $5,000 of my personal money to design and build and install what was needed to get back at least the missing power.

Mazda had claimed that we were missing 9HP ( 238 versus 247).

I tested the car, as did many others, and we believe the real number is more like 25-30HP. We see the RX-8, in stock configuration, in North America, as making about 220-225 horspower at the crank, and about 175HP at the rear wheels.

My goal was to simply get back the lost power.

2) Along the way i discussed what I was doing on these forums, and a considerable amount of interest developed among readers and other owners.

As I achieved promising results about a dozen people contacted me and asked if what I was doing could be provided for their cars too.

So, I set out to design a device that would be :

a) Easy to install

b) Safe to use

c) Easy to remove for emissions testing or dealer service/repairs

d) Cost no more than the $500 refund we were getting from Mazda.

e) Provide at least a 20 to 25HP gain.

We developed this, sourced the parts, designed the components, and developed a budget whereby we could do this. I did not consider it "work" nor did I intend to profit from it.

At that point it was still just a hobby activity, and I did not need to show a profit. It took some time, but not too unreasonable an amount, and there was a definite end of the process in front of me.


Then the numbers grew... and grew.. and grew..

Pretty soon we had over 100 orders. Then 200, 300 and on..

Dealers/aftermarket vendors and other commercial entities started calling, and wanted to buy our devices wholesale, so they could resell these to their customers.

They asked us what their wholesale price would be on larger orders.

We had to answer "ZERO" as we were only making about $40 a unit at that point, and that is not counting my labour, dyno time costs, or anything for my partner and friends who had helped me to develop this.

At the same time we were starting to receive orders, deposits, and it started to become a major commercial undertaking.

We were working about 1/4 of our office hours on "Canzoomer stuff".
Simply handling the order sheets, emails, phone calls, parts orders, building and testing requirements, billing, shipping, doing tech support iss eating up all my spare time. Like now, for instance, where I have spent the last 3 hours working on this.
Last week I had to go out of town for a few days, with only limited email access, and the questions and requests built up steadily.

We decided that the smart thing to do would be to sell the product to these various commercial dealers, and they would handle the retail orders, and we would only have to deal with perhaps 6 to 10 customers.

We would set up commercial accounts for them, and invoice on terms.

So, we announced in the middel of December tht effective Jan. 1, 2004 we were raising the retail price from $500 to $750.

This price would allow the dealers to make some profit and overhead, and to make it worth their while to order in bulk from us.

Even though we had all this interest, and requests, and verbal and email orders for commercial orders, when the 15th of January passed we only had properly confirmed orders from 3 of the 10 interested parties.

We do not want to have that small a number of dealers, as there would be no commercial competition, and you, the consumers, would suffer.

At the price we are offering these to the dealers I believe they could sell at under $650 and still make a worthwhile profit.

In the meantime we have received a large number of orders, and would be building these units for at least another 3 months the way we were doing it.

We approached a couple of subcontractors to build wiring harnesses and other components, and have managed, due to the volume of sales, to bring down our costs a bit. By buying in larger quantities we have driven the parts costs down a bit further.

Given the above, we now have 3 choices:

1) Keep selling the units privately at $500

2) Change the single price up to $600 and offer these at $500 to anyone who wants to buy 10 or more units, and encourage Group Buys.

3) Go with only 2 or 3 dealers, and let them decide the retail price.

So, I have a created a poll and hope you will fill it in so we may get some feedback.

If we go with option #1 I can not always be as responsive as I want. Simply put, while others are involved, I have the final say on policy, R&D, development, financial affairs, customer satisfaction issues, etc. It takes a lot of time.
With #2 I can afford to pay a full time staff person to deal with the bulk of the work.
With #3 it is easy, but I do not like giving thatmuch contol over to a couple of outsiders. Further, I want to keep the price at or close to the $500 mark.

I invite you to respond to the poll, provide feedback, and tell us what YOU think we should do.

Thanks for your time!

Personally, I would go with choice #2 and focus more on pumping out those wonderful qualify ecu kits. Get more resources to fulfill orders, R&D, QC, Customer Service, and expand the business...more $$$:)

That's just me if I were you of course!:D

Hi Maurice,

First off, I would like to congratulate you on your effort. Looks like you have a hit on your hands.

As a business man myself, I feel your dilema, you started a side project that was only supposed to last a month or so. However, it's now taking a significant amount of your time with no clear end in site. As nice a dilema as it might be, a solution is required.

Since I couldn't find your poll in the Lounge section, here are my thoughts.

Do you sub-out the sales, but as you've discovered the commercial interest just isn't there (yet?). However, I wonder if 3 dealers is really too few to develop a competitive market (specially if they all can offer mail order).

Do you really have the time to do it yourself without impacting on either your core business or family life? Something tells me no. So you are really left with the alternative of finding someone else to run this little venture. I think that $600 is not an exhorbitant amount, which does give you some room to manoeuver for volume discount. The real question is can you find someone to run this little venture in a way that you find acceptable. I know that this is not as simple a task as it appears.

I vote for 2, if you can find someone to run the show. Otherwise 3, using short term contracts to control potential excessive markup.

Good luck!

I'm not a business man. But I whole heartedly agree with Mac.

Sorry, I forgot to set up the poll BEFORE finishing the thread, so had to re-create it, withpoll, and m,erge with the new one.

Done, so people may vote now.

Having been in business for myself, I can appreciate the hidden costs which are not listed which mostly involve a lot of personal time. I commend you for the effort you have given and the ability to come to market quicker than many well established vendors. I find that suprising actually considering you have a day job.

I voted for option 2 as I do think this is reasonable and makes sense. $600 is not unfair and, as you mention, a group purchase can justify the lower cost when they occur as it is easier to bulild in batches vs one at a time.

You have taken a large initial risk which you are justified in recouping and if business is still good in a few months and you find yourself able to lower costs even more, at that point you can then pass those savings on to the consumer.

Cheers

just my thoughts,

once you take it out of house you lose control...

once you lose control you have to compete with yourself, and i am thinking that if you go into business with others you will have a no compete clause.

i think you charge as much as you need to make it worth your while and let the chips fall where they may.

would i like to have one for 500 us sure.
but am waiting to find out the final results.

btw, i would pay a deposit to help beta test. have done it before and works well.

beers

Maurice,

I am not a business man either, but I felt the best about #2, so it got my vote.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Thanks so far.
Please keep em coming!

#2

Oh, and BTW...Zoomer, you shouldn't be telling us such secrets!!

Why not? I have no secrets to hide..

I think you should pass the whole shemozle to a trusted colleague.

Dave (the RX8Friend) has been building for you, and the quality has obviously been proven. If he can run the whole show, and has the time, he is the obvious choice for the job, and very knowledgeable about all things Rotary.

If you care anything for your build quality, reputation and customer/client interface, I would have to recommend that you never let that 'Stealth' bufoon anywhere near your kits in the future....I have never seen such pitiful soldering, mediocre wiring, and sad pin bending skills. (I'm pretty sure I got one of his....)
He also mentioned something about being happier if he never sees the inside of a 'Zoomer mod again! (The pink wires, he is gay right?)
.
.
.
doc

ROTFL!!!:D

I know Dave seems to be enjoying the tech part of it, but I doubt he would be happy with the paperwork.
The tech is fun.

The paperwork is a drag.

Wait, weren't the pink wires YOUR idea??

Oh, and we have the build stickers now (thanks go out toPolack for a decent job making those). There is a place on them for the assembler to initial.. Hmmm, you have to initial at least one!

you are going to hate me for this, but if you need any warm weather testing i am your man.

was 82 today on my from orlando to naples.

beers

Canzoomer,

Go with 600 bucks because from what I am hearing on here, it is worth every penny! Thank you, by the way, for honoring the $500 price even though I emailed you on the 31st of Dec!

Jeff

For all your time in effort I vote for option #2 as well Maurice, beause you have to make some profit.

Your real profession and entrepeneurship is what got you here in the first place. If this is more of a hobby (that you do to perfection) make sure it stays a hobby and not a full time business. Possibly teach a family member or a close friend your skill and trade to help alleviate some of your time and effort.
We (lot of us) on this forum like modding our cars as fun and as a hobby and if it turned into a business I would think otherwise. We all appreciate the time and effort you have put in. I'm sure we all have day jobs and wouldn't be on this forum if we couldn't afford, or plan to have an RX8. I couldn't even fathom taking on the project you did, let all alone putting up the initial capitol. Wow.

Anyways thanks!

Keep it close, make some money, enjoy your work. Being in business for yourself doing something you love can be a lifetime of pleasure and reward. :)

Running this project as a hobby was a good idea when you pictured a small group of hobbyists, but you have hit a nerve with this project and the potential is very high. If all buyers were also hobbyists it might be OK, but many have high expectations about delivery and performance, etc.

You have been very understanding of all that and have worked very hard, but you can't address all issues on a larger scale without satisfactory margins. I can see the benefit of either option 2 or 3, but I would favor option 2. Keep it close to home, offer good value, but cover your costs and reward yourself for your very valuable contribution. Even if it means charging more than $600.

The only possible value I see in using dealers/distributers is in reducing shipping/export costs with bulk shipments across the border. Maybe you can find a stateside partner to get the best of both worlds under option 2.

Option #2.

Keep the good work Maurice.

Cheers
Simon.

Ditto #2
Family_Man

'Zoomer,

One thing that you must realize is that this product at most has a 3yr life span. Competitors will be hitting the market soon with their products. Using their big "name" to their advantage may not benefit your situation. Have you looked to selling your "mod" to any of these larger companies? Perhaps you can charge a licensing fee or "royalty" (for your maps) to these companies and remove yourself from production. This "mod" is not an idea that will last a very long time, its best for you to cash in right now!!

Maurice,
I applaud not only your ability, but your integrity and insite as well. I voted for #2.

It's hard to argue with #2 so that was my vote before reading the other responses. $500-$600 seems to be the price sweet spot in my opinion. At $500 it's a no brainer upgrade. At $750 I'd be looking at your competition.

The key is to free up cycles for you, Maurice, to focus on stage 2 and other mods in the future. That way you get to continue to do what you enjoy while reaping the benefits. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be grateful to work on the manufacturing side of the operation.

Have you thought about sending a kit and letting people do the fabrication themselves? There are some pretty skilled people on this forum who would be happy to build their own for a price break (raises own paw in air).

i vote for #2 but i would change it to $650. earn your investment back sooner and still undersell the other guy when they produce one.

Maurice,

From the looks of it so far, I went with the majority in voting for option #2. I can't really add anything that hasn't been already said to you on this thread, but for those who took a "wait & see" stance concerning your ECU ( including myself ), customer service is probably the single biggest obstacle you'll encounter in selling more units.

As more owners hear about this great product but haven't been following it's development / history or quite possibly are new to the forum, timely delivery will be a paramount issue. We've already seen comments from those who were worried that their credit cards were charged and no news about the product. In the end, this has become a business and not all your customers will be as forgiving as those who have followed this saga from day one. I know that option #2 will address this and other time-consuming issues for you.

I'd like to see the ability for you to accept direct Paypal CC payments and somehow be able to ship into the US without the current customs hassle. (just an idea)

Continued success to you, we all appreciate it.

-Gary

I think Option 2 sounds the best. $750 is, IMO, enough of an increase to give me pause. $600...probably not. Someone mentioned the short lifetime of the product, and that is probably a good point. For that reason, despite the fact that I'd rather pay $500 than $600 (I don't yet have an 8 or I would have done so already) I don't like option 1...you need to have some time to work on Canzoomer Gen II or whatever the "next mod" will be, assuming you want to keep this ball rolling.

jds

Option 2 for me Maurice!:D

I for on appreciate the work you've done, and the fact that you still seem passionate about the car.

This option may give you more time to develop the stage 2 kit ;) , and drive your own car a bit more often (for fun!).

An expectant UK customer............

I agree with option #2.

Originally posted by garyna
Maurice,

I'd like to see the ability for you to accept direct Paypal CC payments and somehow be able to ship into the US without the current customs hassle. (just an idea)

Continued success to you, we all appreciate it.

-Gary

As Paypal has forced us into using their "Business account" as of Feb 8th we are now accepting credit card funded payments.
AS this costs roughly 3% we are simply going to pass on those costs.

I remain a believer in letting the customer choose his method of payment, and the associated costs that accompany it.

Paypal and credit card purchases bear a cost.
They are convenient.
However if someone prefers to pay us by cashiers cheque or money order I do not believe they should be paying the 2.5% to 3% attached to the credit card choices.

Last time I checked Canada and the USA still had currencies, and people have the right to use them. When we force all customers to pay the service fees associated with credit companies, we erode that right, and the currency of our countries.

When you walk into a store, and you see the American Express or Diners Club symbols please realize that you are paying an extra 5% for the ability to use them.

But when you pay cash in that same store also remember that you are still paying that 5%.

That is simply not fair, but the agreements the credit providers make us comply with try to prevent our rights to do business as we see fit, and attempt to make us hide the costs of this service.

In effect you are being charged a premium for using the currency of your country, so that some of us may use credit cards.

Thanks for the good wishes, Gary, we appreciate it.

Thanks for your quick reply Maurice! I absolutely agree with your statements above. I personally have no objection to paying a 3% surcharge if I choose to pay w/ my CC, as it should be. I guess we can all just chalk it up as a cost of doing business for the sake of convenience. I certainly appreciate your honesty and candor.

That being said, if I order this week, how far back am I? 30-60 days?? Thanks again.

-Gary

I think #2 is the best for all involved.

I think it was hinted at earlier in this thread, but have you thought about selling this as a "kit". Sell it at a discount for the DIYers and just ship all the materials. This would help you on the labor side of this project.

BTW, I can't wait for my Stage 1.....

Ooh that's a great idea! I haven't seen the kit, so I don't know if you take steps in the manufacturing to ensure that your intellectual property remains yours, but if its all internal to the chips (i.e. no microprocessors embedded inside a resin or some such thing) then this might be doable. It would save you the time and trouble of wiring it up as well.

jds

Maurice -

TiRX8 makes an excellent point. I would keep the manufacturing in house for now, sell them while demand remains high (and until the "big name" competition catches up with you, probably 3-12 months at best) then license your maps out.

In fact, I'd start contacting those companies NOW so that they can just buy or lease the maps from you and save themselves a whole lot of R&D. if you wait, they will develop their own maps, and your opportunity to sell to them will diminish.

One other thing to consider: Do you want RX-8 parts to become a real, permanent sideline to you company's product line? Think seriously on this one (it IS a labor of love, after all!) and if you decide you want to keep doing it, you're in a great market position to keep your lead.

I voted #2 also.

Hope this helps...

Originally posted by TiRX8
'Zoomer,

One thing that you must realize is that this product at most has a 3yr life span. Competitors will be hitting the market soon with their products. Using their big "name" to their advantage may not benefit your situation. Have you looked to selling your "mod" to any of these larger companies? Perhaps you can charge a licensing fee or "royalty" (for your maps) to these companies and remove yourself from production. This "mod" is not an idea that will last a very long time, its best for you to cash in right now!!

I really seemed to be in the minority with the #3 dealer vote. I would certainly be interested in representing you stateside. I started an MR2 Car Club in Portland, OR. when I lived there just to offer upgrades and equipment to other enthusiasts. I feel that way about my RX-8. There are some Rotary enthusiasts here in this area but I would like to spark more interest in the 8.

I disagree that you will only have a life span of a few years with the RX-8. I believe that Mazda has plans for this car and that we will see a push for more sales. The dealers have plenty of them and that is a good sign that we will see many on the road. I do agree that you will need to think seriously about this venture but I see a big opportunity for you to get yourself placed in the right spot to corner your market. Your reputation is very good and while some bigger name companies may try to jump into the market you are already there. Establish yourself. Get a distributor here stateside and move your product. If you are getting a lot of requests in the UK and Europe then get distributor established there and the same in Australia. Then you don't have to worry about shipping all of the individual items to so many countries and locations. It saves you from needing to track all of the little items.

Another point is that if you have distributors it will make your warranty of items easier. You can save on shipping them out by not paying such high prices. You may even decide to have your distribution depts. handle the warranty issues by deciding what is and isn't manufacturer or parts issues.

I would like to see more development for the RX-8 and from my experience you seem to be level headed and have excellent business ethics. These are qualities most of us are looking for and companies such as Neuspeed, UPRD, and Turbonetics all started out as a few people with a vision. I look forward to seeing where this will take you. You have a cornered market now since most of us can't get some of what you have to offer elsewhere.

Let distributors and dealers take some of the load off. Give yourself time for more R&D and come out with more products. Maybe start a collaboration with other manufacturers and create products that you can sell through your distributors under your label. Some of these products could be high-flow/high-temp cats, exhaust, face plates for aftermarket stereos, etc. There are many ideas on this forum and I know that other manufacturerers are paying attention. Beat them to the punch line.

Maybe I should have been a motivational speaker... Any way that's my $.02 worth. If you are looking for someone interested in distribution here just let me know. I also can work on Newsletters and other promotional material. You gonna need a logo.

Originally posted by Doctorr
I think you should pass the whole shemozle to a trusted colleague.

'Stealth' bufoon anywhere near your kits in the future....I have never seen such pitiful soldering, mediocre wiring, and sad pin bending skills. (I'm pretty sure I got one of his....)
He also mentioned something about being happier if he never sees the inside of a 'Zoomer mod again! (The pink wires, he is gay right?)
.
.
.
doc

Dont want to be bitter or a bitch but dont talk about being gay as negaitive. WHat do u mean by pink wires he is gay right!!!!!. I dont say "look this guys cant dress he dosent match ohh hes straight right ohh that why". keep your gay sterotype and jokes to your self!!!


Aslo zoomer i pick option 2

u r doing great work but just telling you if you are like my dad at all it will be very hard to hire someone u trust. My dad owns a pharmacy he works over 70 hours a week because he wont hire anyone taht cant do teh job how he wants it. well good luck

adn in about a month or so i will buy your ecu mod

Originally posted by bureau13
Ooh that's a great idea! I haven't seen the kit, so I don't know if you take steps in the manufacturing to ensure that your intellectual property remains yours, but if its all internal to the chips (i.e. no microprocessors embedded inside a resin or some such thing) then this might be doable. It would save you the time and trouble of wiring it up as well.

jds
Kitting it woud be pretty well a waste of time.
Final assembly is a minor cost. Building the components is the cost, and not for faint-hearted.

Originally posted by Omicron
Maurice -

TiRX8 makes an excellent point. I would keep the manufacturing in house for now, sell them while demand remains high (and until the "big name" competition catches up with you, probably 3-12 months at best) then license your maps out.

I do not think they will truly "catch up"
We have the packaging down so it is an easy, no permanent mods to your car install. That is what is unique to this.
Maniac already demonstrated that with will, skill, and time it can be done, but via the hack and slash route. That is certainly do-able, but a heck of a lot of work.
I know, we did it too, and then some.

What we did that is unique is to make it a plug-in.
Besides at either $500 or $600 there is little or no room to undercut us. If we raise the price to $750 it opens the doors to the copycats.

If you look at typical ECU chip/board units, or similar they all go for this price or higher. We supply a lot more useful prepackaged stuff for that price.
Even the guys that will reprogram an ECU charge about this much.

In fact, I'd start contacting those companies NOW so that they can just buy or lease the maps from you and save themselves a whole lot of R&D. if you wait, they will develop their own maps, and your opportunity to sell to them will diminish.

We already started that with the guys doing turbos/blowers.
We have offered to do the tune for them, and our unit has all the hardware in it to support the fuel/air we are shipping now, PLUS ignition and positive pressure control for this.

All that is required to turn on ignition, more aggressive tuning, and even positive pressure is a bit of wires inside and a different programming set. Yes, the difference between Stage1 and Stage2 is only about $30 in part inside. All wiring, plugs and software.
The biggest part of the price difference will be devoted to support and customization. Stage2 is for the racer crowd.


One other thing to consider: Do you want RX-8 parts to become a real, permanent sideline to you company's product line? Think seriously on this one (it IS a labor of love, after all!) and if you decide you want to keep doing it, you're in a great market position to keep your lead.

The answer is "YES"
However it can not push away our other business either.
Based on the responses here I am hiring someone to handle the management of the day-to-day of this business. I will still handle PR, R&D, management, but leave the rest to another person.

I voted #2 also.

Hope this helps...
Yeah, it really does, ALL OF YOU!

I now know what I will be doing, and (no surprise) it will be #2.

Good choice.

wouldn't it be less expensive to pack a whole bunch of stage1's on to a pallet and send them to one or 2 locations in the US and then have them shipped to the customers from that point? maybe you could use east and west coast distributors? ive got a spare room i could turn into a "warehouse" to distribute from. hell orders from oregon and washington i could deliver myself. another excuse to drive my RX-8, especially after i get CZ stage1.

also have you trademarked Canzoomer, CZ and combinations of those with "stage 1"? you don't want anyone else stealing your name. or trying to profit from it buy marketing a similar product using a similar name.

Or charge 750.00 and make a few bucks.

Vince

#2
Working for the Air Force, I have seen how distibutors can change prices to whatever they want ($500 hammers etc.). Just look at the 56% markup on the strakes ($160 cost to $250 MSRP) most Mazda dealers are doing (not Rosenthal).
Keep control yourself. I agree with rex. At $500 - $600 all is good. $750 makes me pause to think.
Can't wait to get the money for the Stage 1 (see first sentence for reason).
Great work.
Thanks.

Correct distributors can raise prices but only if that keeps them competitive. If you know that you can order an ECU upgrade from Canzoomer at $600 + shipping but for example, I charged you $750 + shipping. Even if it took an extra 2 weeks to get it from Canzoomer most people would go that route.

Now if it was the same cost for the ECU upgrade but it meant that you would get it in half the time... Well then it's up to you. Or how about someone coming to my location and I put it in the car for them... Maybe I would be able to attend car shows and rotary events here in the states that Canzoomer doesn't have the time to do. I could sell them there and keep interest high in Canzoomer's product. That is how a distributor could be effective.

The product would never leave Canzoomers control since a distributors job would be to advertise, create product awareness, and get the products to the consumer. None of these things are taking control away, it is called outsourcing.

I have to admit I voted #1 just on my being frugal.
But sitting and thinking about it I would like to change my vote. I go for number 2.

I am a product manager and set prices like these all day. I say set a price, $600 for example, and then build tiers that will allow bulk orders to decrease the price from there. i.e. purchase 2 for $1150, 3 for $1650.

Enjoy the Ride. . .

I voted for #2 also, here's why:

It seems to me that selling yourself short isn't going to keep this a fun project for long, especially if you have to deal with absorbing price fluctuations from ordering offshore components, etc.

The best thing you can do, is exaclty what you proposed for #2. Keeping the frugal buyers able to get in to the group buy proposition, and that is precisely what I would wait for. My RX-8 is currently happy in my garage for the winter, but come march, I'm going to be looking for a group buy to get the CZ Stage 1.

Too high a price will bring in too much competition, but not being able to handle all the orders is a problem too. Typical small business issues; You start out wearing all the hats, and end up not wanting any of them unless your business is your passion.

If you do find that sales are starting to slip, (once they get over the initial rush of people that have been waiting for stage 1 to ship), it might be time to give one to a magazine (need suggestions?) to review in an article to drum up interest.

Again, thanks for the good work on the much desired mod,

OverLOAD

Maurice: I think it's extraordinary that you'd ask your buying public what you ought to do with a business you started - even though you didn't set out to do that. Clear testimony to the fact that this is a business grown out of enthusiasm.

I think you have to go the Option 2 route at the very least in order to make dealing with the inevitable problem children worthwhile. You've been somewhat insulated from that thus far because you're dealing with an audience of like-minded individuals who want the same things as you in terms of the car we all love. But as it gets bigger and your audience broadens and your installed base deepens, a whole different group of headaches will develop.

When that happens, I personally want the emotional cushion of you making some financial return on all your effort to keep you doing what you're doing.

And yes, I'm a business owner myself.

I voted 1 also because I was being frugal (cheap really), and was hoping to save some money in the near future. Not fair to CZ. What to charge? Charge what the market will bear and what will maximize your profits. If you do not want to increase staff and can only produce X units per month then you should charge whatever dollar amount will result in X orders per month. If you receive too many orders in a given time period, raise the price. If after raising the price, you get too few orders, have an end of the month blowout at a reduced price. Market studies can be a lot of help, but so can trial and error. That said if I must choose one of the choices above, I choose 2. But if people only know about your product from this board then most if not all of your sales will be at the group pricing and it may not matter.

Edit to fix typos

I am just frustrated with all of the talk about group buys and volume pricing, considering I haven't been shipped "a single" Stage 1 that I ordered over a month ago and paid for 3 weeks ago. I was told (by CZ) my unit would ship out around Jan. 15th, then he told me the week of the 19th, then the week of the 26th. Still no shipping confirmation and no Stage 1. Here's an idea, before discussing these future selling plans for the Stage 1, how about he fill the orders that were already placed. Duh! This is B.S.

I voted for number 2, hopefully enacting this option will prevent others from feeling the same discontent that I feel.

Originally posted by 93rdcurrent
... Maybe I would be able to attend car shows and rotary events here in the states that Canzoomer doesn't have the time to do. I could sell them there and keep interest high in Canzoomer's product. That is how a distributor could be effective...Speaking of car shows Maurice, are you planning on attending SEMA and similar shows as a vendor now?

Originally posted by mdw33333
I am just frustrated with all of the talk about group buys and volume pricing, considering I haven't been shipped "a single" Stage 1 that I ordered over a month ago and paid for 3 weeks ago. I was told (by CZ) my unit would ship out around Jan. 15th, then he told me the week of the 19th, then the week of the 26th. Still no shipping confirmation and no Stage 1. Here's an idea, before discussing these future selling plans for the Stage 1, how about he fill the orders that were already placed. Duh! This is B.S.

I voted for number 2, hopefully enacting this option will prevent others from feeling the same discontent that I feel.

Exactly the reason I asked this question.

Matters of time.

Having decided to follow the 2nd option I am now hiring people to improve matters regarding this issue.

Originally posted by Omicron
Speaking of car shows Maurice, are you planning on attending SEMA and similar shows as a vendor now?
Possibly. It's warmer than here!

Originally posted by mdw33333
Here's an idea, before discussing these future selling plans for the Stage 1, how about he fill the orders that were already placed. Duh! This is B.S.

I gotta disagree, planning is definitely NOT BS - it's smart business. I don't know why you would think that discussing future pricing and group buys would affect fullfillment of current orders - those are two entirely, completely, separate issues. Planning is essential for the success of any business - especially when you have a business like this where initial orders were greater than anticipated. They're trying to catch up to current orders, and they're planning how to avoid big backlogs in the future. How is that wrong???

I can appreciate your frustration, but to suggest that he should avoid making future plans is just silly - the two actions (expediting production to meet current orders as quickly as possible, and planning to anticipate future volumes and production capacity requirements) are not mutually exclusive.

Regards,
Gordon

Gord96BRG, I just question wether or not his future business decisions should be discussed on an open forum of customers, many of whom are discontent from past business transactions with him. It is Canzoomer's business, not mine, I'm simply questioning whether it's appropriate. I have to admit, that it's probably not my place to question his topics in his forum, however he asked for feedback by posting this thread, and feedaback is what I'm giving.

It's not his planning that I have a problem with, its discussing it in a forum full of people who are wondering "where in the heck is my unit?" It some ways, it implies that he is maybe one step ahead of himself, thus, rubbing some people the wrong way.

Along with some of the good feedback, comes some of the bad. That's part of business. I've expressed my frustrations in a respectable manner, and I speak for others on this forum whom I know feel the same.

mdw33333,

I can appreciate where you are coming from but I have to disagree about whether a public forum is the place to discuss his future business plans and with current customers. He is looking for feedback from the people he is working hard to provide products to. How commendable is that? He put himself at risk of frustrated people in order to get an honest view of his business needs. I say excellent job CZ.

I am glad that you have been honest about your frustration because that is exactly what he needs to know about. There is nothing wrong about speaking your mind respectfully. And you're right it is his forum so if he wants to ask the question he will.

Everyone who responded did so because they had an opinion about what would be best for themselves and CZ. CZ had to make a decision and he couldn't possibly make everyone happy by it. I am glad that you participated in his poll but I think that you should be grateful that he cared about your opinion rather than be upset that he asked for it. I hope you get your Stage I soon and I am sorry that I won't be able (allowed by the wife) to get mine until spring.

Maybe I'm just jealous.

Thanks for the feedback and all the support guys.

I want to give you some idea of a few of the issues we have been dealing with:

For building these units there are several suppliers, components, services and actions involved:

1) Boards - We get these as a manufactured assembly. We have them pre-made for us with the ROM data partially pre-programmed, then add the actual mapping file here.
The last batch arrived over a week late, and when we got them this week we found the pre-programmed part was incomplete. Add 15 minutes each to adjust this. Contacted the company making this and explained what was missed, promises next batch this will not happen again. Hopefully so, earlier ones were done correctly, so this looks like a one-time glitch.

2) Wiring harness components. We are getting the actual wires pre-cut, with terminals installed, and other minor actions done, from a company in Hong Kong.
We have been doing this all here up to now, and we sent the bulk of the metal terminal ends that get crimped on the wires to them a few weeks ago. Went through a round where it almost seemed that the person I was communicating with was intentionally misunderstanding what we are asking for. I find this strange as we have used this company several times before to make assemblies that are quite a bit more complex than this one. Finally got an inkling of what was going on 2 weeks ago. Our rep seemingly was avoiding responding to emails and telephone calls. Moved up the chain to his boss, and found out that the guy was leaving the company as of 10 days ago, with the Chinese New Year holidays.
After the holiday I resumed with the boss, and found out most of the work preparation had been avoided. Now well under way, but it has taken 6 weeks to get to the point that should have taken a week.
Connectors: The manufacturer that makes these is big, and the only problem we have had is that ordering as FEW as 1200 pieces is considered a trivial order for this type of component. Still, they have some people who have been excellent in helping out. Last batch of connectors actually came from warehouses in USA, Japan, Italy and Germany. Literally every piece had to come from a different country.

Metal cases: Made locally. This has been relatively event free. I did the design work, gave them the CAD, and they have been on time and accurate.

Minor components. Mostly event free so far, except for the last minute decision to use switches. This dragged on as the supplier rep forgot to order in what we ordered. Got sorted out by his boss.

Final assembly:
If we do all the work here, including the wiring harnesses, etc., it takes at least 3 man hours per unit to build. Simply not practical. However with the subassembly pre-builds I talked about above our final assembly time goes down to about 1 hour. As the pieces all come together we will see a great improvement in production speed.

Testing: Each unit has been hand tested up to now, and drive tested on my car. We needed a more efficient and safer way to test, and we now have a custom-made circuit tester we can plug the whole wiring assembly into so we may test for accuracy or faults. Thanks go out to rx-freind for making this.

Shipping: We started off using Fedex Ground for the bulk of the orders going out. While they have a good reputation in general, lately their customs paperwork handling people have been making a series of errors that would appear comedic, if it were not happening to us! Ended up resolving this by swtiching over to their Express Air service, which is actually an entirely different division of the company. Now this is going pretty smoothly.

Paperwork:
To successfully ship one of these items we need to include:
Shipping waybil
Commercial Invoices (in triplicate)
Documentation of origin of components and whole assembly
FCC Declaration forms
NAFTA forms
Tariff and duty classification forms.

I hope this gives people a bit of an overview of the process we are going thorugh in scaling up to mass production, and the various issues and delays we have encountered.

As we progress through the various hurdles we are adapting from a capacity to make perhaps 25 units a week to making a couple of hundred a week.

Communications and problem solving for customers:

This forum is both a blessing and a curse. No matter what one does, errors will occasionally happen. Sometimes our errors, and sometimes our suppliers and shippers. In most businesses these things happen silently, and are only heard of by the customer and us.
In this forum ANYTHING that goes wrong with a transaction becomes a topic of discussion on an almost soap-opera like scale.

On the other hand, if we want to disseminate information, ask for feed-back, and so on, this forum makes it incredibly easy to communicate with a large number of people in a relatively short time.

In the meantime I am woriking on such matters as:
Australian requirements: The cars over there seem to have an entirely different configuration than most other places. Even the Mass Air Flow sensor is a different unit!

Stage2: We have a list of people who want to go to the Stage2 version, but up to now we have focused mainly on getting Stage1 done and getting production and shipments flowing to fill those. Now we have to take the final steps to got to full production on Stage2. It is a similar build, but with a few added wrinkles, more internals, different programming, and the fabrication and supply of exhaust components. 3 more suppliers in the chain.

Beyond: We have a number of threads we are following in ongoing R&D and testing. Precursors to Stage3, implementing new ideas and improvements. Diving into producing fully programmable kits for people who are actively using these in competitive track use, and other areas. I am investigating ways to solve the issue of the RX-8 being prone to hard starting and flooding, ways to produce a kit to allow one to readily control the ABS and DSC systems, and testing of components like intakes, turbos, superchargers, and suspension items.

Lots of work ahead.

It is fun though, and working with the people we have been met has been a very pleasurable experience.

Edited for typos 01-31-04

As I've said before, Canzoomer is an asset to all of us. He is an out going and honest individual. Thanks for taking the time in showing us what is involved in producing your products. Canzoomer is KING!!!!!!!

I like that, it has kind of a 'ring' to it -

" King Zoomer! "
.
.
.
doc

Just a closing note to mdw3333:
1) I promised him that if worse comes to worse I will ship him MY unit this week.

2) We have NOT charged your card!

thanks for the hard work and keeping us in the loop.

beers

CZ, that is a very respectable gesture. Though, I hope it doesn't come to that. To make a gesture like that lets me know that you are truely "Customer Service oriented." You have a definite advantage at this point due to the lack of present competition in developing a Mod such as the Stage 1. However, soon there will be competition (there always is) and "Customer Service," which you apllied in the statement above, will definitely give you a "leg up" on the competition. Thank you and congrats.

Originally posted by mdw33333
CZ, that is a very respectable gesture. Though, I hope it doesn't come to that. To make a gesture like that lets me know that you are truely "Customer Service oriented." You have a definite advantage at this point due to the lack of present competition in developing a Mod such as the Stage 1. However, soon there will be competition (there always is) and "Customer Service," which you apllied in the statement above, will definitely give you a "leg up" on the competition. Thank you and congrats.

Doing our best.

We are people, and RX owners, just like you.

Thanks for the understanding!

Feel the LOVE! ;)

I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of distribution system in the US to avoid the tariffs and all the other stuff related to crossing borders

Originally posted by pr0ber
I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of distribution system in the US to avoid the tariffs and all the other stuff related to crossing borders
Can't avoid tariff. BUT, these are shipped as computers ( which they ARE!) and as such there IS no duty. It is zero rated.

Plus we qualify under the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) so there is no duty from that reason too.

What we ARE working on for USA orders is to ship in bulk across border, then packages get taken out of bigger box and go separately form there.

Saves cost as bigger shipment part way at lower costs, and one customs clearance brokerage fees versus several.

Should be in place in a week or so.

Hi Maurice,
Great job on your new venture. You have done a wonderful job on coming up with stage 1. I have been following your progress for months and also feeling your pain. It is never easy setting up a new production line, and it is even much harder increasing your production capacity. One has to be carefull of expanding too fast as you may never recover your costs if the inital demands for these units taper off after a short while. You may want to consider selling the technology to a larger company who has the resources to build , sell and service the product and are able to offer the customer support, and free yourself to develop more new toys for us, and as soon as you get another one ready, you turn it over, and move on. You are having too much fun in the R&D department, and I really fear you lose your passion while dealing with all the headaches associated with starting a new business. It is never fun being on the defensive side almost daily explaining why did you not ship a customer his unit. Please keep smiling, and thank you so much for being a shining star for all of us. God bless you.......

Sincerely

Mark Qandil

On another note, could I phone you as I have few questions for you regarding stage 1?

Well Me and RX8 Friend are officially processing the orders for CZ Stage 1's, Rx8 Friend is building them as quick as humanly possible while i shovel through the paper work and manage the shipping. We hope to be in full swing very soon.

canzoomer Jr--love the name

I'm sorry that made me laugh

He's my son, Graham.
He drives a Mazda too, a Millennia

bump.....

chris, im right behind you

i miss the good ole days

wow chrism you really are bored bumping all these old threads

I'm curious why the bump? CZ was before my time mostly, but from what i understand it was a great tool in its time but these days would be considered an archaic means...?