I was on the phone with Mazda today receiving assistance on locating a vehicle. After getting the information I wanted I told the woman about all of the conflicting information people have been receiving from both Mazda and dealers regarding warranty coverage on the flooding problems.

She said an email went out this morning to all the customer service reps telling them to inform all inquiring parties that flooding problems will be covered in all circumstances. This means that if your dealer tries to give you the "one-time fix" crap, you simply need to call Mazda and they will take care of it.

I apologize if this is new information to any of you, but she did say specifically that the email was sent this morning, Jan. 26.

good. thanks for the information.

In today's market, I can't believe that Mazda won't stand behind this problem sooner or later. Most manufacturers will stonewall problems until it becomes clear that the issue has become very damaging to the brand or risks government action. It is encouraging to hear eveidence of Mazda stepping up on this issue.

Again, I figure Mazda is doing the age old technique of passing some of the cost for the flooding on to the dealer. So I assume that not all will be happy endings, but certianly good news. Thanks for sharing ByeByeSaturn.

Originally posted by ByeByeSaturn
She said an email went out this morning to all the customer service reps telling them to inform all inquiring parties that flooding problems will be covered in all circumstances.
I had not heard this news. The letter I sent earlier this month specifically asked Mazda USA to promulgate a formal policy that all RX-8 owners and prospective buyers could rely on -- whatever that policy might be. I'll be strutting around pretty happily if Mazda announces a "we'll cover it" policy.

The "flooding issue" has been dividing the community, pitting those of us who worry about such things against those who don't. It would be very nice to get the whole thing behind us and start working on the problem together, with Mazda as a partner.

My dealer told me that the solution to preventing the flooding problem is simple. If you are going to shut off the car before it warms up all you have to do is rev the engine once or twice before shutting it off. I've been doing this consistently and I have not had a problem yet and I am constantly doing cold shut-offs.

I'm sorry but that's no solution to me. I'm pretty much a rotary fanatic and a multiple multiple rotary owner. I've worked as a tech for Mazda and I'm friends with some of the most experienced rotary people on the planet. The increased potential of flooding compared to piston vehicles is just plain unacceptable, especially here in 2004. They better find a fix quickly!!!:mad:
If I seem a little irritated it's because I'm one of the people who are really concerned about the future of rotary engined vehicles.
In talking to several techs recently it has been confirmed to me that the flooding is at least a minor epidemic.
A regular person (non-rotary freak) shoudn't have to worry about such things and that includes checking oil levels regularly.
Fix these things before it's too late.

Thanks for the info ByeByeSaturn. Other than that we can hit the snooze button on this post. zzzzzzzzzzz

Way to go Ceramicseal. You are right on about this flooding issue. If Mazda wants to sell this car beyond the die hard faithful and rotary goobers, they better fix this problem quick. One more lady getting her car towed from the Neiman Marcus parking lot won't do much for Mazda's long term image. Maybe I should rephrase that, the RX long term image. They should recall all the those 300 CCA batteries and put 700's in. Who cares if it weighs 5 more pounds in the front. At least it may start. Get a starter that will spin this thing and do what ever they deem necessary for the initial fuel on startup. The polls say now *20 %* have flooded at least once??? Hello Mazda..... Anyway, it was good to hear 'ol Jim Downings story of running Little Talledaga with his new 8 last weekend. And the comments from a professional driver and long time rotary man on how neutral the car was. He was really impressed. Looked like a kid with a new toy.

Not meaning to stray off topic, but for those that don't know, Jim Downing is the most successful Mazda racer in history and he just picked up a blue 8 last week from John Finger Mazda ( another former racer)
The sales person did also caution him about the potential flooding.

Good to see they made this issue official. Like many other Rotary fanatics, I too want them to deal and eliminate this problem ASAP. Flooding, Oil Consumption and Fuel Economy are the biggest "complains" against the Rotary engine, hope Mazda can resolve all of these issues soon.

By the way, KUDOs for all of you who called, complained, and screamed at Mazda and to their Dealers and made them know it is indeed a major issue. If it is big enough for them for make this official, you can bet there will be engineers working on this.

Big Thank you to all.

Originally posted by Smoker
If it is big enough for them for make this official, you can bet there will be engineers working on this.

What were the engineers doing 3 years developing this car or even before that?

I think flooding problem is inherent with rotory. I dont think they will be able to provide a permanent fix rather come up with preventive techniques to minimize the problem.

I still believe that the spark plugs are less likely to foul if the rotary was flipped -90 degrees so the plugs were on top. Few people who have flooded their engines to the point they couldn't start tried to restart it immediately. Most have let their engines sit for a while letting the gasoline cook on warm plugs. If Mazda gave gravity a chance to drain the spark plug holes I think there would be less crud on the plugs when it came time to start them.

Originally posted by lpdrx-8
My dealer told me that the solution to preventing the flooding problem is simple. If you are going to shut off the car before it warms up all you have to do is rev the engine once or twice before shutting it off. As has been stated here before, that's only part of the solution.

There's still the problems of:

1) Valet Parking
2) Accidental stalls while the engine is cold

Either could result in your 8 having to be towed to the dealer where it could sit for 1-3 days (say it happens on Friday night - around here service departments don't work on Saturday or Sunday, and they may not even get to it Monday if they're backed up enough), a totally unacceptable situation for a brand new 2004 vehicle.

If it was due to a failure or defect, that's understandable (though no better); the fact that Mazda knows this is an issue and has not yet solved it is the problem...

Originally posted by lpdrx-8
My dealer told me that the solution to preventing the flooding problem is simple. If you are going to shut off the car before it warms up all you have to do is rev the engine once or twice before shutting it off. I've been doing this consistently and I have not had a problem yet and I am constantly doing cold shut-offs.

The delaer told me something similar. Said to rev engine up to 4k and hold it there for 10 seconds, then shut it off. He said that will burn up the excess gas in the engine. Said only necessary to do thiis in cold weather.

$400 to change fouled plugs. I wonder why some rx8's have the flodding problem and others don't?

Originally posted by Maximus

I think flooding problem is inherent with rotory. I dont think they will be able to provide a permanent fix rather come up with preventive techniques to minimize the problem. [/B]

I understand from reveiws that the ecu mapping is set rich to meet the EPA standards for longevity of the catalytic converter. Mazda used that solution because the car was already set for production when EPA passed the new standard. The car originally put out 250 hp. 12 hp was lost with the richer mapping. That might be cause for some of the flooding. A piggyback ecu may eliminate flooding and restore hp but reduce the life of the catalytic converter.

Thats basically the way I understand it but I'm no authority. Just repeating what I've read about the car.

Originally posted by Maximus
I think flooding problem is inherent with rotory. I dont think they will be able to provide a permanent fix rather come up with preventive techniques to minimize the problem. I don't recall Gen. II RX-7s coming with a warning that you needed to rev the car for five minutes after driving short distances. I know that for the brief time I owned an (FC? I can never keep the designators straight - a 1989 RX-7 GTU, regardless) I never treated the engine any differently from a piston engine and never had a flooding problem.

In fact that experience so enamored me of the rotary that it just kills me that something like this prevents me from buying the car I've been waiting literally almost ten years for (didn't fit at all in the FD RX-7.) I've made no secret that I wouldn't look twice at an RX-8 were it not for the rotary power plant, so it's a shame that the company that has been nurturing rotary technology all these years trips over such a stupid issue.

Think of it for a minute - isn't there anyone at Mazda who realized that requiring owners to go through a somewhat complicated five minute ritual any time they started the car and would possibly shut it off cold with the cost of a possible tow to the dealer if the instructions weren't followed wouldn't pass a 2004 laugh test? This is 2004, not the era of the Model T, so an engine that isn't at least as reliable as a conventional piston engine isn't going to sell to anyone but the rotary choir; unfortunately that's not enough to keep a car line going and I honestly do feel for the rotary's future.

Sorry to rant a bit here, but imagine you were coming from the outside taking a fresh look and you hear about (1) the HP error, (2) reports of ridiculously low MPG (13? 15? In a car with a gas tank that holds less than 16 gallons?!?!) and now the flooding problem?

The service manager at my local Mazda dealer reports that he has had quite a few flooding victims since the RX-8 came out, but fewer recently since they started warning new buyers (only after the sale) about the warming up/engine rev procedure.

Originally posted by Maximus
What were the engineers doing 3 years developing this car or even before that?

Well, you have to understand that before the car was release, most of the engineering efforts were for sure focused on producing a car that would SELL and get good feedbacks from the media so things like reliability issues usually gets a little ( or not enough) attentions.

Usually, for most car manufacturers, they focus their resources to correcting and refining the V1 model after the initial release. Unfortunately for us, this is the way the car selling business work and this is why for all brands and all model, there are usually glitches here and there for the V1 models.

So is it really "official" that we should be using the engine rev at shut down procedure? What EXACTLY is this procedure? I have heard lots of opinions and what people do, but is there an official position from MAZDA? Is it different for the MTs and the ATs?

I am gonna call my dealer and ask. I'll post the results here later. Maybe others could do the same.

mm

Originally posted by ByeByeSaturn
I was on the phone with Mazda today receiving assistance on locating a vehicle. After getting the information I wanted I told the woman about all of the conflicting information people have been receiving from both Mazda and dealers regarding warranty coverage on the flooding problems.

She said an email went out this morning to all the customer service reps telling them to inform all inquiring parties that flooding problems will be covered in all circumstances. This means that if your dealer tries to give you the "one-time fix" crap, you simply need to call Mazda and they will take care of it.


Would someone with a friend at a Mazda service department please try to get a copy of this alleged email and post it to this website?

It's all hearsay until it's in writing.

Well... I'm scared everytime I drive it to the store or gas station now (gas is 1 minute away, store is 2 min).... Sitting there revving to 4k for 10 sec is obnxious (if this works??), and waiting 5 min is an ass pain too.

All I really want is for it to be like the 15 other vehicles I've owned. Goto the gas station, turn off car, insert credit card, pump gas, turn on car, go about my business. Not pray that It'll restart after I'm done.

I'm hoping the stage-1 ecu mod from carzoomer (which doesn't run as rich at higher rpms) helps reduce this, but thats just speculation on my part. who knows!?

Arron, try filling it up the night before on your way home :)

Yea, I know that was a smart ass answer, but it is what I do.

Revving the engine for 10 sec before shutoff sounds pointless to me, correct me if I'm wrong but how is that going to burn off fuel if the engine is still running?

The tip mentioned on this board about turning the key off as the the RPM's are coming down (i.e. cutting fuel as rotors turn) sounds logical to me, but I'm no engineer.

whats a way to work perfectly lol as if there was a way but so i dont freaken flood when i get my baby delivered

Originally posted by amartin
Well... I'm scared everytime I drive it to the store or gas station now (gas is 1 minute away, store is 2 min).... Sitting there revving to 4k for 10 sec is obnxious (if this works??), and waiting 5 min is an ass pain too.

All I really want is for it to be like the 15 other vehicles I've owned. Goto the gas station, turn off car, insert credit card, pump gas, turn on car, go about my business. Not pray that It'll restart after I'm done.

I'm hoping the stage-1 ecu mod from carzoomer (which doesn't run as rich at higher rpms) helps reduce this, but thats just speculation on my part. who knows!?

Those one and two minute drives are bad for any engine- it won't usually result in flooding in conventional engines, but you end up with contaminants in your oil when you don't drive long enough to properly warm up the engine. Condensation combines with sulfur (as a by-product of the combustion process), producing acidic contaminants that break down your oil.. and cold weather just compounds this problem.

It's just a good habit to avoid short trips that aren't followed by longer, warming-up trips with any vehicle. Knowing that, the warm-up procedure for the RX8 has never bothered me. Even with my Miata, I would roll it out of the garage Flintstone's style to wash it, and then drive it spiritedly after the wash or push it back in.

Personally, I always warm up my RX8 as much as possible when on short trips, and regardless of length, I do the rev to 3-4k and kill the ignition while the revs are up (which I've always done with my FI cars).


Just my $ .02
-Sean

as noted you can say anything on the internet and it becomes fact...show me the email or I still am not convinced of this posting.

A dose of skepticism is a good thing. I think we all see the question mark at the end of the title of this thread... . Once it becomes official, we'll post one with an exclamation mark. Until then, we'll just wait for the next flood story to see what happens.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
I understand from reveiws that the ecu mapping is set rich to meet the EPA standards for longevity of the catalytic converter. Mazda used that solution because the car was already set for production when EPA passed the new standard. The car originally put out 250 hp. 12 hp was lost with the richer mapping. That might be cause for some of the flooding. A piggyback ecu may eliminate flooding and restore hp but reduce the life of the catalytic converter.

Thats basically the way I understand it but I'm no authority. Just repeating what I've read about the car.

do you really need the catalytic converter?

I had similar flooding problem with my Xedos and have adopted the fix I used for that for the RX8 (which I've now owned for 4000 miles in cold weather).

If you have to move the car to let the Mrs out of the driveway, then make sure you let the engine idle for at least a minute after you've done it. I like to let the ECU drop the idle revs to around 1200 revs before turning it off.

Beyond that I've done nothing and have had no real problems.

Starting: Turn it over for 1 1/2 secs ... should start!

Sometimes doesn't, so turn it over for 5 secs (don't touch the pedal) ... almost always starts.

Now start panicking!!! So far I've left it for a minute and then floored the pedal and started it for up to 10 secs ... ends up starting and smelling of rotten eggs.

Haven't had a terminal flood yet.

Originally posted by DrIfTnDrAfT
do you really need the catalytic converter?

Yes you do if you want to pass emissions tests and drive legal. I've heard of 40 hp gains with stage 2 kits that eliminatd the catalytic converter but then the car will not be street legal.

Originally posted by highspeed8
Revving the engine for 10 sec before shutoff sounds pointless to me, correct me if I'm wrong but how is that going to burn off fuel if the engine is still running?

The tip mentioned on this board about turning the key off as the the RPM's are coming down (i.e. cutting fuel as rotors turn) sounds logical to me, but I'm no engineer.

4k is where the car burns lean. you want to shut it off when its burning at it's leanest rpm. Low rmp and high rpm are where the car burns rich.

It would seem that revving to 4K would not be good for the COLD engine - cold is when this flooding thing happens so it seems.

I guess you need to weigh the advantages/disadvantages of a revving cold engine vs a flooded cold engine.
------------------------------
RrrRRrrrRRRRRRRR! *sputter* <clinkity-clank-plahhhh...poosh!>

Darn! One rotor revved and wore out while the other flooded. Anyone out there have a rotor or two they can spare? Heh heh

Originally posted by flatso
as noted you can say anything on the internet and it becomes fact...show me the email or I still am not convinced of this posting.


I called my dealer yesterday and asked the sevice manager about the E-mail covering egine flooding. He did not admit to any e-mail but confirmed the flooding problem was covered under warranty any time it happens. Strange since the salesman told me the day before 1/25/04 that flooding was not covered. So something has changed overnight regarding this matter.

I should reiterate that I spoke not with a dealer, but with Mazda. If you want to verify the existence of the email, you should call them, not your dealer.

Is the flooding issue with both transmissions or just AT or just MT?

That is as of yet unclear. Megareds, who has been on top of this issue it seems for a while now, has only noticed flooding posts from his fellow AT owners. However, as I'm sure he'd acknowledge, that is far from a complete survey, and further still noone has been able to come up with any theory as to why it should be that MTs are less prone to the problem.

I have one theory actually - AT RX-8's are more likely to be driven by a secondary driver , one who is not knowledgable of the precautions that need to be taken. I have seen a couple posts from people whose spouse has unwittingly caused the problem for them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Positron
[B]So is it really "official" that we should be using the engine rev at shut down procedure? What EXACTLY is this procedure? I have heard lots of opinions and what people do, but is there an official position from MAZDA? Is it different for the MTs and the ATs?

The "short trip driving procedure" is in the quick reference manual that came with the owners manual.
1. Start engine
2. Move vehicle
3. Warm engine for 5 minutes at idle
4. Raise engine speed to 3000 RPM for 10 seconds
5. Return to idle
6. Turn off engine

Irish - Yup, we all understand what it says about in the quick ref about "short trip driving". The question here is about the rest of the time. Normal driving - still use or engine rev or not.

It would also be interesting to try to figure out if it is true more ATs flood than MTs. I agree with the possible link to ATs possibly being driven by more secondary or even less experienced drivers. But it is very hard to get a real read on this. All we can do is keep on talking about it. Thx.

mm

My gas station is across the street.... I pull out of the apartment complex slowly to warm up.. then I redline in first down the side street (im at the end of the street by the time i need to change to second). I take a left and redline it across the 6 lane road (diagonally) and pull into the gas station, shut my engine off , pump, and go home.. never any problems

Originally posted by amartin
Well... I'm scared everytime I drive it to the store or gas station now (gas is 1 minute away, store is 2 min).... Sitting there revving to 4k for 10 sec is obnxious (if this works??), and waiting 5 min is an ass pain too.

All I really want is for it to be like the 15 other vehicles I've owned. Goto the gas station, turn off car, insert credit card, pump gas, turn on car, go about my business. Not pray that It'll restart after I'm done.

I'm hoping the stage-1 ecu mod from carzoomer (which doesn't run as rich at higher rpms) helps reduce this, but thats just speculation on my part. who knows!?

Originally posted by Positron
[B]
The "short trip driving procedure" is in the quick reference manual that came with the owners manual.
1. Start engine
2. Move vehicle
3. Warm engine for 5 minutes at idle
4. Raise engine speed to 3000 RPM for 10 seconds
5. Return to idle
6. Turn off engine

Does anybody else find this oxymoronic? If you had 5 minutes to spend in the car warming it up you'd have driven it somewhere instead of just sitting there!

The quick tips footnotes this valuable information by saying: "TIP: Warming up engine improves engine life"

They really should have said "WARNING: Failure to follow the above procedure may cause the engine to flood. Vehicles with flooded engines will need to be repaired at your local authorized Mazda service department."

This would have made the information consistent with the rest of the owner's manual. I happen to be one of those people that read the owners manual from cover to cover and I don't recall seeing a single warning about this reliability issue. Totally amazing considering the manual has three or more warnings on every single page!

BTW... I have not flooded and have not followed the procedure on the occasions that the car was just moved to the other end of the driveway. I am the primary driver, but my wife does drive it occasionally. Or should I say she used to drive it occasionally. Since telling her about this cold engine procedure she hasn't driven it

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Yes you do if you want to pass emissions tests and drive legal. I've heard of 40 hp gains with stage 2 kits that eliminatd the catalytic converter but then the car will not be street legal.

in florida we dont have emissions :D

Originally posted by DrIfTnDrAfT
in florida we dont have emissions :D
What, you all drive electric cars? ;)

lol we certainly dont have emission tests.

Originally posted by DrIfTnDrAfT
lol we certainly dont have emission tests.

Your kidding,
Go for it then, stage 2 fast and furious. I have to go for emission tests every other year. It's a pain.

Mazda: Please restore our lost horsepower. You fixed one thing (emissions) to make a few things worse(poor mpg, flooding, loss of power)! Develop a Catlytic converter,seals and coil packs to handle the extra heat, or replace them on and as needed basis. I want more power, and better MPG as it was advertised....Damit!

I agree with JimW. I think Mazda should retrofit us, if only for marketing and PR purposes.

I also agree with CERAMICSEAL (earlier, above) that this business of flooding is not acceptable in a modern car - rotary or not. If the 8 goes to more customers, and more varied customers, annually than the 7 did, as Mazda undoubtedly hopes, flooding can become a more visible problem.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Your kidding,
Go for it then, stage 2 fast and furious. I have to go for emission tests every other year. It's a pain.

i kid you not my friend. im not gonna be all fast and furious but i will have the stage 2 lol. now if only i can understand this flooding thread id be fine, but the more i read the more i understand. i have soo many questions its not funny i need to p/m someone so i can get all the info i can

Originally posted by JimW
Mazda: Please restore our lost horsepower. You fixed one thing (emissions) to make a few things worse(poor mpg, flooding, loss of power)! Develop a Catlytic converter,seals and coil packs to handle the extra heat, or replace them on and as needed basis. I want more power, and better MPG as it was advertised....Damit! Just to be nitpicky, you are getting exactly the power and MPG advertised on the window sticker... (yes, I know many are getting below EPA mileage, but you would likely get what's on the sticker if you drove on the rollers comprising the EPA test loop...)

Originally posted by DrIfTnDrAfT
i kid you not my friend. im not gonna be all fast and furious but i will have the stage 2 lol. now if only i can understand this flooding thread id be fine, but the more i read the more i understand. i have soo many questions its not funny i need to p/m someone so i can get all the info i can

I don't understand all the talk about flooding. I 've had no such problem. 10 degrees below this morning and it fired right up. Short trips or turning the car on and off moving it around in drive I have no problem. The rx8 rocks. I think it is the most technologically advanced , refined ,sophisticated sportscar made today. I'm just so glad to have one. I only drive 7k/year so gas mileage makes no difference to me.

The 8 is so personalized it is not for everyone. Let the masses and comlainers buy Accords and the Camery. Thats what their made for. The rx is made for fun and me.

Roaddemon - What is the build date of your car (look on sticker on drivers door that lists tire pressure, etc for date)? Is it auto or manual trans? How long have you had your car? I am trying to get something definite on cars that don't have the flooding problem and cars that do have the problem. Thanks for the info.

mm

Originally posted by Positron
Roaddemon - What is the build date of your car (look on sticker on drivers door that lists tire pressure, etc for date)? Is it auto or manual trans? How long have you had your car? I am trying to get something definite on cars that don't have the flooding problem and cars that do have the problem. Thanks for the info.

mm

It is a velocity red, grand touring, manual 6 speed, dealer owner driven demo I bought Tuesday with 2300 mi on it. I bought it for my wife and she presently has it at work, (boy is the 8 getting attention. Her Boss and everyone else have admired or commented on it) so I'll get back to you on the production date after she comes home from work.

OK I got the production date. It's 06/03. I wonder if the ECUs on some 8s are defective. Would'nt doubt some recalls once Mazda finds the problem.

Just a thought... does anyone know what the most recent ECU flashes fix?

I wonder if the most recent ECU flashes are designed to fix some of the flooding issues.

Anyone?

I just read this entire thread, help me out:

My gen 2 1988 RX7 DID have a flooding problem. It was a known thing, rumor had it that it was much better in the ~1990 version. I've heard also that the gen 3's (turbos) didn't have much of a problem.

BUT ... the only time my car flooded was if I started it after it was cold (even in August!) and moved it in the driveway, maybe 20-30 feet, then turned it off. Next attempted start, flooded.

OK, those that have experienced flooding on the RX8 (I haven't in the six months I owed it) please help those worrying about short trips to the gas station. I don't believe that your car will flood if its been driven a city block.

What is the longest "trip" taken where flooding has occurred? Help calm the fears of those who won't buy an 8 or are scared to drive to the gas station!

Originally posted by Charles Cope
I just read this entire thread, help me out:

What is the longest "trip" taken where flooding has occurred? Help calm the fears of those who won't buy an 8 or are scared to drive to the gas station!

For me... 30 feet on a rainy day, temp about 35F. The car sat about 10 hours, then did not start when I tried, even though I was careful about how I tried to turn it over (I followed the manual).

BTW, I'm no longer optimistic about the email mentioned in the first post.... it's been long enough now for someone to have confirmed ByeByeSaturn's report, but no one that I know has.

Megareds, I'm not sure anyone tried to call Mazda NA, because if they had they would have posted the answer they got one way or another. I gave the date of the email, and I would call back and myself, but that kind of misses the point. I believe I spoke with a woman named Michelle, but I could be wrong about that.

If someone could call next week, tell them the date of the email and ask to confirm it, that would be great. It's a few minutes of your time, and many would appreciate it. Info:

1-800-222-5500
Our business hours are
Monday through Friday:
8:00AM - 4:45PM (Pacific)
9:00AM - 5:45PM (Central/Eastern)

Originally posted by BillK
Just to be nitpicky, you are getting exactly the power and MPG advertised on the window sticker... (yes, I know many are getting below EPA mileage, but you would likely get what's on the sticker if you drove on the rollers comprising the EPA test loop...) Yes we are getting the advertised H.P. but not the MPG even while driving like EPA rollers! Every car I had came close to EPAs target MPG, but the RX8 isn't close, This is due to the detuning via the air fuel ratio which makes the car run richer thus giving us worse gas mileage. I'd be glad to pay for a high heat resistant catylitic converter if they restored the original parameters, but of course this will probably not happen, That's why I am looking forward to stage 2 and thanking Maurice (canzoomer).

JimW, have you seen Maurice's personal mpg? Don't believe everything you read on the web. I don't think there is any claim that stage1 or 2 will get you improved fuel economy. Canzoomer is not a subsidiary of Mazda and isn't promising to give back the exact supposedly lost hp. Best wishes whatever route you take.

Originally posted by ByeByeSaturn
Megareds, I'm not sure anyone tried to call Mazda NA, because if they had they would have posted the answer they got one way or another.
If someone could call next week, tell them the date of the email and ask to confirm it, that would be great. It's a few minutes of your time, and many would appreciate it. Info:


I really want to see something a bit more formal than an email to a particular customer. I mailed them a letter asking for a clarification of the warranty issue earlier this month.... I'm sure everyone is tired of my drum beating by now, but I think this is really important for Mazda to nail down, particularly for people considering buying the car. They've only had my letter about 2 weeks so far. At 4 weeks I'm going to rethink the whole thing and try to develop my own version of "Stage 2."

Megareds,

It was not an email sent to me. It was an email sent by HQ to all Mazda customer service reps, apparently. That's what I was told, and it definitely requires confirmation (hence the "?" in the subject of this thread). Granted, an official letter sent by Mazda to all dealers and owners would be the only 100% stamp of authenticity that would truly put our concerns to rest, but an email of the like that I was told about is a step in the right direction.

So now the only question is, who's gonna call?

Originally posted by Charles Cope
OK, those that have experienced flooding on the RX8 (I haven't in the six months I owed it) please help those worrying about short trips to the gas station. I don't believe that your car will flood if its been driven a city block.

I tend to agree although I don't have any hard data to back it up. If I'm moving the car out of the drive or something, I take it around the block before I park it. Not very far but far enough for the temp gauge to at least move up off the left hand stop one click.

I regularly fill up with gas (plesae lets not turn this into a mpg thread :) ) at the station at the bottom of the hill from work when it's cold - about 200 yards, and I have had no issue restarting after getting gas so far. Generally after getting out of the lot, pulling onto the road and then into the station the temp gauge has just started to move from dead cold.

Simon.

Originally posted by JimW
Yes we are getting the advertised H.P. but not the MPG even while driving like EPA rollers! If they detuned after the MPG ratings were established Mazda would have to go back to the EPA for a retest, so the sticker ratings were established with the final ECU mapping.

I tend to believe that though there is some issue with ECUs and MPG (some have no problem achieving EPA numbers, others cannot) I also believe the car's lack of an upshift light means that most people don't shift using EPA-like shift patterns. Try upshifting at no more than 3K RPM and always, but always shift into 6th as soon as possible once you get to speed - the engine won't bog at as little as 35 MPH in 6th but won't exactly accelerate - and see what you get...

Originally posted by BillK
If they detuned after the MPG ratings were established Mazda would have to go back to the EPA for a retest, so the sticker ratings were established with the final ECU mapping.
I was lurking on the British version of this board a few nights ago and noticed that pretty much everyone was getting 21-23mpg. Are the Brits not also driving the crippled RX-8?

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
I was lurking on the British version of this board a few nights ago and noticed that pretty much everyone was getting 21-23mpg. Are the Brits not also driving the crippled RX-8? Be careful - they may be quoting Imperial rather than U.S. gallons (1 US gallon = .833 Imperial gallons...)

Yes....

US Gallon = ~3.79 L
UK Gallon = ~4.55 L

A pretty substantial difference when talking about MPG

Interesting observation... The Nashville Auto and Truck Show was this weekend. I went today a lurked around the RX-8, listening to the the sales people talk to people about the car. They mentioned to almost everyone that you had to be careful about shutting down cold. They were also telling people the oil need to be checked often. When I bought my car the saleman mentioned on the test drive that you had to be careful about moving the car short distances, but that was it, no other mention of it..
just my input.. for what it's worth..

I also had starting problems which went to Mazda techincal. They have produced a technical note (last week in the UK) which suggests to rev the car to 3500 revs and then switch the ignition off (this should clear any unburnt fuel). When you restart the car, they suggest putting your foot to the floor (shuts off the fuel supply) and then slowly release the pedal until it fires.

Mike

Very good news... I received a letter today from Mazda North American Operations. I'll post the details in another thread because I think it deserves its own. For now, I'll just quote the relevant paragraph:

"In regards to your question, any incidence of RX-8 flooding, whether it be dealer service or towing, will be covered under Mazda New Vehicle Warranty (48months/50,000miles). I apologize for any miscommunication between you and the dealer as dealers have been educated that the repair will always be covered by Mazda."

This is a huge relief to me personally because up until today I was becoming convinced that Mazda was deliberately being vague at the expense of its customers and potential customers, and I was distressed that I had bought a car from that type of company. I had also decided that I was going to stick with this issue until I had received some measure of satisfaction, so planning "Stage 2" was consuming more and more of my time and energy... I'm really happy to say that "Stage 2" is cancelled.

Guys... this is a very generous policy, and one we should be thrilled with. I know some of you were told this was the policy from the start, but my experience suggested that it was not such a simple issue. I was quickly becoming convinced that we would get coverage for the first year as a "service adjustment" or, as my dealer told me in writing, as a "one-time good will fix." That could easily be $250 per repair. In light of the plain and unequivocal language used in the letter, and in light of the fact that it took them over three weeks to respond, I'm convinced this will stick.

Zoom Zoom! :)

Megareds,

Im curious to know if this is an official national response from mazda, or just a per incident response to your case

Did you happen to question the rep and ask them this? If this is anational incident, ask them for a CODE or an INCIDENT ID number which pretty much is a way of them tracking specific cases with their vehicles

I have to call Mazda HQ tomororw and talk to someone .... but gj, gl and hope your ride gets repaired asap !

Za

My "question" (referenced in the letter quoted above) was specifically whether flooding repairs were covered under the warranty for the full 4 years. I complained that my dealership had indicated my repair was not a warranty-covered incident and said I believed RX-8 owners were entitled to know Mazda's interpretation of the extent of their coverage. I specifically asked to know what Mazda's policy toward flooding would be into the future. My letter appears to have been processed around the same time ByeByeSaturn reported an email had gone out to customer-service people about the fact that flooding was a covered incident. I suggest anyone with a problem or question call the number referred to in my letter: 800-222-5500. This is Mazda's customer relations number.

I sent an email to the customer service office at Mazda NA and asked, in general what Mazda NA recommends that an owner do about the flooding issue. In retrospect, my question was probably too general, but here is what the Mazda NA rep sent me today:



In regards to your inquiry about operation to avoid stalling (as
mentioned in our "Quick Tips"), as I'm sure that you know from your personal research before your purchase, the RX-8 is a truly unique sportscar. Not only is the styling and design different, but it is also powered by a completely different type of engine. Undoubtedly, you must have been attracted by the uniqueness of the rotary engine as one of the features of the RX-8.

By design, the rotary engine will utilize oil to lubricate its
components and the temperature gauge should reach operating range to allow for proper functioning. As you have found, it is suggested that one simply allows for the fuel and oil to move through the vehicle before shutting it off to avoid flooding and improper flow of oil. Almost all driving will allow for this naturally. Extremely short drives may not allow for this however.

Therefore, in the rare case that you need to simply move the car out of the driveway, for example, and then turn it off....just give a few minutes (we suggest 5) to allow for warm up.

Basically, we suggest that you allow the fuels and fluids to move
through the vehicle until warm and avoid spark plug damage, too. We suggest letting the engine idle for about 10 seconds before moving your RX-8 (this is pretty standard for ANY driving). Before shutting off the engine after moving, let the engine idle for about 5 minutes and then rev it to 3,000 RPMs and return to idle. You can then shut it off.

Naturally, this would only be suggested in rare situations when you operate it for less than 5 minutes at at time. Almost all driving that one does would allow for the engine to operate naturally to these specifications.



At least I feel I have some more detail from an "official" source about short moves, idling before starting, and reving before shutting down.

Some how I don't find moving a car a short distance to be a rare event. Still I can deal with it but it is not rare!

Basically he didn't say anthing more than what is in the tips booklet.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
"In regards to your question, any incidence of RX-8 flooding, whether it be dealer service or towing, will be covered under Mazda New Vehicle Warranty (48months/50,000miles). I apologize for any miscommunication between you and the dealer as dealers have been educated that the repair will always be covered by Mazda." While this is good to know, it still doesn't solve the problem that it may happen to you at a very inopportune time, and if it does it will likely take at least an hour to get your car towed and then you will likely be without it up to three or four days, depending on when it happens.

In short, it's good to know they will cover it, but Mazda still needs to fix it, IMHO, or the 8 will never be anything but a very small niche car and the rotary's reputation will be sullied once and for all... :(

Originally posted by BillK
While this is good to know, it still doesn't solve the problem that it may happen to you at a very inopportune time, and if it does it will likely take at least an hour to get your car towed and then you will likely be without it up to three or four days, depending on when it happens.

In short, it's good to know they will cover it, but Mazda still needs to fix it, IMHO, or the 8 will never be anything but a very small niche car and the rotary's reputation will be sullied once and for all... :(

Your wrong on that. The rotory is only prone to flooding after starting and stopping after very short period in cold weather. If precautions are taken as stated in the manual it should not be a factor. The rotory has been around a long time and will always be a valued sportscar engine. This car already has a reputation as a great car. I'm sure it will be improved upon in the future. But why wait when you can have it all now.

A couple times I have clonked out my 8 backing up out of the drive. It restarted right away. It was 22*F outside. I drive it like any other car short trips.

Originally posted by Roaddemon
Your wrong on that. The rotory is only prone to flooding after starting and stopping after very short period in cold weather. If precautions are taken as stated in the manual it should not be a factor. The rotory has been around a long time and will always be a valued sportscar engine. This car already has a reputation as a great car. I'm sure it will be improved upon in the future. But why wait when you can have it all now. Tell a random buyer looking at an 8 this:
Did you know that every time you start your car you have to make sure to run it for five mintues, according to the instructions on this card they throw in the car attached to the gear shift, or you risk having to have your car towed to the dealership to be fixed?
I don't think 8 sales would be helped too much by that. (Frankly, RX-8 sales are pretty horrid as is, unfortunately.)

Say what you want about how wondeful the rotary is; I know that. But even as a rotary lover I'm not willing to risk having to have my car towed to a dealer someday if I have to valet park and the valets need to shuffle the cars around, let alone if I happen to stall the engine when the conditions are just right.

I did read your post stating that you stalled your car and it started right up, but some here have moved their car a short distance when cold and haven't flooded, either. Just because it doesn't happen once doesn't mean your luck will hold out... :(

Originally posted by BillK
Tell a random buyer looking at an 8 this:

I don't think 8 sales would be helped too much by that. (Frankly, RX-8 sales are pretty horrid as is, unfortunately.)

I did read your post stating that you stalled your car and it started right up, but some here have moved their car a short distance when cold and haven't flooded, either. Just because it doesn't happen once doesn't mean your luck will hold out... :(

I thought I read a post here sales were very good selling over 60,000 units and projected over 100,000 units next year. I think these cars will fly out of the showrooms come spring.

Some 8s have flooded, most do not. I'm sure the problem will be addressed in 2005. Not enough is known about the problem yet. I don't think luck has anything to do with my car not flooding. My 8 is fine. You sound very paronoid towards the car. Have you had any problems so far?

I think the flooding problem could be fix on the RX-8 if you bought a switch like I bought for my RX-7. I just cuts the fuel pump at the pump to let the engine spin and start. They just let off and it returns to nomarl. It is just to keep it from adding fuel at start up to wet the plugs and keep them from firing. I wont hurt the engine because it is still be lubercated from the oil injection system. It will make it so you never have a flooding problem again. I bought the one that Tripoint Eng makes. Flooding is something that happen with all rotarys because fuel keeps getting put in to the engine as it stops, and as three are chambers and two have the fuel in them and are close off. and act like a blown apex seal when It floods. Because there 2 cambers that need to fire after each other to get the engine time to burn any excess fuel as the first two chambers burn and help heat the engine up.

Does the trailing spark fire first on ignition?

Leading fires first:

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/RE101pages/5-ignition101.html

That's a nice article. I was just wondering if when you crank it, the trailing might fire first. Guess not. Thanks BBSaturn.

hey guys. first off i'm not an 8 owner yet. didn't buy after doing research on this board and seeing the apparant problems. went to the philly intl auto show last night. talked to both a bunch of mazda sales guys and the northeast regional rep about the flooding prob. sales guys either denied it or tried to pass it off as a very minor issue. northeast rep immediately came clean.

the temp fix for the flooding issue is the installation of hot plugs. this won;t fix the problem but should reduce the chances of it happening.

they feel they've identified the problem as an issue with the ECU program. he claims the dealers need to flash the ECU and that in the next 30-60 days the ECUs coming out of the factory wil be fine. said that some dealers know about the ECU issue, some do not. All have the equipment to handle it in house, easily.

he claimed it had somehting to do with the car pumping too much gas into the engine when it senses a cold start. the fix would have the ECU retain the memory of it being recently started and changed the amount of fuel being pumped in or somehting. although, afterwards i thought about it, and why would that be the fix as i've seen people on here say they've flooded it and waiting hours then tried restarted it and it would start. his explanation makes it sound like the engine actually gets flooded on the attempted restart as oppossed to the shut down.

anyway, thats what he told me. by the way, another guy came up to him at the same time with the same question. he learned about the issue on this board. good job guys. keep up all the great info.

Originally posted by MWG
I think the flooding problem could be fix on the RX-8 if you bought a switch like I bought for my RX-7. I just cuts the fuel pump at the pump to let the engine spin and start. They just let off and it returns to nomarl. It is just to keep it from adding fuel at start up to wet the plugs and keep them from firing. I wont hurt the engine because it is still be lubercated from the oil injection system. It will make it so you never have a flooding problem again. I bought the one that Tripoint Eng makes. Flooding is something that happen with all rotarys because fuel keeps getting put in to the engine as it stops, and as three are chambers and two have the fuel in them and are close off. and act like a blown apex seal when It floods. Because there 2 cambers that need to fire after each other to get the engine time to burn any excess fuel as the first two chambers burn and help heat the engine up.

Not that I feel that it's necessary to use on every start-up, but Mazda did put in a fuel cut off "switch" of sorts- if the gas pedal is held to the floor (WOT) during ignition, fuel is cut off until the pedal is lifted. If I were ever forced into a situation where I simply could not let the car warm up before shutting it down (stalled engine, wife driving, etc :), I will certainly make use of this "switch".

-Sean

We'll see if the ECU flash fixes the problem, though the obvious question is why they didn't come up with this fix sooner rather than take the time to print the "Quick Start" guide... :(

Flooding is definitely an issue. It was not a good feeling watching my brand new RX8 get towed last week because of it.

We have three cars in the family. I had been driving the RX8 for about a month. I decided to take one of the other cars out that had not been driven in a while. The RX8 was parked in a downward sloping driveway. After a few days, I tried starting it, and nothing....... Serves me right for not driving it. ;)

After reading many of the posts here, I think I'll be a bit more prepared if it happens again.

The Mazda dealer and mechanic also recommended using a lower grade of gas. Any comments on that recommendation?

My Mazda web site also recommends using the lowest grade gas within the octane range in owners manual. That would be 87 octane. It's under tips for best gas mileage. I use 87 octane and notice no change in performance. I don't know what my gas mileage is. I think around 17mpg short 2.5 mile cold climate drives to work. My 8 is never warmed up all the way in cold months. A tank can last me 3 weeks or more.

I can move my 8 around in the driveway without warmup and have never flooded. I always rev to 3k before shuting down when car is cold. I tried to flood it starting and stopping 4 times in driveway without reving to 3k on shut down. Temp was in the 40s. I could not flood it. Starting wise my 8 is like any other car I've owned. I don't understand the flooding issue. Apparently some 8's have screwed up ECUs. An updated flash will correct. My dealer told me my 8 was flashed in december before I bought it. It was a demo since august so they took care of it. Generally they will not flash unless you have flooding problems or registered CELs.

I've put about four tanks of Premium in my AT since I bought it. I've also been tracking the milage and MPG. So far with a full tank of Premium gas, I can go about 245 miles, which is right at 18 MPG. It will be interesting to see what I get with the lower octane.

Below is my email response from mazda regarding fuel use, and flooding. Let me know what you think.



Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate
the opportunity to respond to you.

The Owners Manual recommends 91 octane fuel. Any reduction in this
octane could negatively effect the performance of your vehicle. As for
warranty coverage on the flooding concern it is preventable. However,
the warranty covers defects in workmanship or materials, not items
related to maintenance, normal wear and tear, or outside influences.

Again, thank you for contacting Mazda. It has been my pleasure to
assist you. Please feel free to reply to this message with any further
questions or comments.

Please take a moment to give us your opinion about our e-mail service.
Click the link below to complete a brief, online survey.

Jordan Dalton:
The answer you received -- "However, the warranty covers defects in workmanship or materials, not items
related to maintenance, normal wear and tear, or outside influences" -- is a potential step back from the letter I received earlier this year, which promised that all incidents of "flooding" would be covered under the standard warranty. My letter said it plainly... your letter, if meant to apply to a flooding problem, is non-commital gibberish.

On the positive side, I do not believe I've read any posts from anyone whose flooding repair was not covered under their warranty, at least after complaining to Mazda North America about the problem, as I did. I do worry that they may back off the "we'll cover it" policy, and what the repairs might cost after the warranty expires -- especially when the cost of the tow is added to the bill. It should be interesting to see how the newest ECU flash affects the problem.

I have never flooded the new rx8 but my wife had to crank the motor twice once so I took it to the dealer and they just flashed the ecu, they told me it should help with starting and or possible flooding.

I was very interested in buying a new RX-8 next week, but in doing my research I stumbled on this site and read all of your comments. This issue of the flooding has dissuaded me from buying an RX-8.

As one who does not own an RX-8, I can give you a realistic view of this flooding problem. The year is 2004, and new cars don't just flood. Cars are designed to start and stop without some voodoo-istic ritual of revving, warming, and flooring. Today's cars are basically idiotic proof once you sit in the drivers seat (of course I'm not talking about maintenance). We got rid of chokes decades ago (for those of you too young to remember a choke, it was a button you had to manipulate when the car was hot or cold).

Having your car towed to the dealer for a $250 repair is just flat out ridiculous. You mean I cannot lend my RX-8 to someone ever without giving them a class and a towtruck number?

I wanted to buy a newer, more reliable car. But looking at the RX-8 I'm better off with my old ride.

Mazda has abandoned you. And be sure that they read this board and see your and my comments and have chosen to do nothing. And I can't afford the flooding repairs once my warranty will inevitably run out.

Their stance that this is driver error becaus ethey mentioned startup/shutdown the ritual in the owner's manual is just a way for them to avoid the Lemon Law.

Thanks for saving me many hours of grief and regret guys!

Wow - How did this show up, yet again???

The flooding issue seems to have affected mostly the first production cars - not much comment on it from buyers (Jan 04) and later.

I bought (shame to admit it) an 82 Camaro - also the first year of a new design - the damn thing broke so many times in the first six months of ownership I almost took up residence at the dealer.

In contrast, I bought my RX8 on Jan 18, 2004 - and except for std maint (at 3K) the car has been reliable and flawless. Quite the contrast.

I think it's your loss - hope you enjoy whatever you do buy.......

Originally posted by billbobbins

Their stance that this is driver error becaus ethey mentioned startup/shutdown the ritual in the owner's manual is just a way for them to avoid the Lemon Law.

Thanks for saving me many hours of grief and regret guys!


You are as clueless as your one post implies.

You're welcome, billbobbins! I'm sure whatever other car you end up with will never give you any problems at all.

Meanwhile, my 16000+ mile 8 has never flooded on me, and the M flash has made it a non-issue for everyone else.

We got rid of chokes decades ago (for those of you too young to remember a choke, it was a button you had to manipulate when the car was hot or cold).
BFD, my '82 RX-7 had a choke. But that didnt stop me from driving it every day for ten years and smiling like the Enzyte guy the whole time. It's all about perspective. Bill, you will probably never understand why us rotarians are such die hard fanatics. But you sound like a troll so I wont waste any time trying to explain it to you.

TROLL - Kill the thread! Not worth the time!

mm

Originally posted by billbobbins
I was very interested in buying a new RX-8 next week, but in doing my research I stumbled on this site and read all of your comments. This issue of the flooding has dissuaded me from buying an RX-8.

Bill - BS. You obviously have NOT read ALL the discussions on flooding. If you had, you'd know that the M flash for the PCM, released in April, has eliminated the flooding issue by revising cold start fuel parameters.

Repeat - There is no more flooding issue, as of April 2004. Mazda fixed it with an ECU update. As long as an RX-8 owner has had the M flash applied, their car will not flood.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Slickvic
No, it wasnt decades ago. In fact my '82 RX-7 had a choke.

Well, actually, that is decades ago - more than two, to be precise.

Why is this thread still open?

Originally posted by MazdaManiac
Why is this thread still open?
Because some of us still care about it, MazdaManiac. Until you've been stranded like I was, it's hard to understand how frustrating it can be. I read every flooding thread and will probably do so for as long as I own the car. They day active flooding threads get "closed" because some members don't like to read them is the day I pull the RX8club.com sticker off my car.

The truth is that Mazda wobbled a little back in January (see the first post of this thread). I was first told that the repair was not covered, then that the repair would be covered just once, then - finally - that the repair would be covered as long as the warranty is in place. I now think my dealer told me truthfully that he contacted Mazda and was told the "once only" policy was "official." The current warranty policy as it was explained to me in writing of unlimited tow and repair is "way generous" for a problem that is this complicated and that can be caused, in part, by owner carelessness. The letter I received from Mazda NA on flooding the car causes me to love my car and made my decision not to sell it easy. Anyone interested in the problem should ask for assurances that they'll be treated in the same way. Anyone told anything different should complain, politely but vigorously -- I had very good results with that approach.

I'm less optimistic than Gordon. While defering to him on nearly every other issue, I expect it to be an occasional problem in 2005, and I'm not lending my car to anyone without explaining the rules of engagement. These are: 1. No gas at start up - just crank once; 2. No very short trips (less than 1/2 mile), or until engine temp is normal; and, 3. If it doesn't start on the first turn, as it always does, leave it be and call me. Any friend who's asked to borrow the car and can live by those rules is free to go. Zoom Zoom - Big smile.

If one needs an "idiot-proof" car, don't buy the RX-8. The unusual rotary engine that makes most mechanics scratch their heads (or gape), the need to check the oil every few tanks and the required winter tires in northern climates gives the car the NIO rating: "Non-Idiots Only." In the beginning I wasn't sure I could handle the challenge (see this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14232)), but it's all worked out. I think the consensus is clear: Mazda did a great job on the 8, with relatively few places that still need work after only one year. Nearly all of us, including those who've been flooded, are very, very happy with the car.

Originally posted by billbobbins
I was very interested in buying a new RX-8 next week, but in doing my research I stumbled on this site and read all of your comments. This issue of the flooding has dissuaded me from buying an RX-8. The RX-8 isn't the only modern sports car that requires a little more attention and care. But if you're not willing to put up with having to rev it for 10 seconds in the off-chance you have to shut down cold, then you should buy something else.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Because some of us still care about it, MazdaManiac.

Well, then care about it in one of the other 90 threads about it instead of this one that was started by an obvious troll!

Originally posted by Deslock
The RX-8 isn't the only modern sports car that requires a little more attention and care. But if you're not willing to put up with having to rev it for 10 seconds in the off-chance you have to shut down cold, then you should buy something else. As I've mentioned before, the flooding issue is of concern even to conscientious owners for two reasons[list=1]
Valet Parking
Stalling the car when cold
[/list=1] I know, "don't valet," but in some areas of the country (particularly Southern California) you literally have no choice, and if your 8 is your daily driver, it will have to be done...

Originally posted by BillK

Valet Parking
Stalling the car when cold
Surprisingly, there've been very few reports of people getting towed after either of these two circumstances. Mostly, the flooding reports have been from people moving their cars on their own driveways, then leaving their cars for a few hours, then trying to start without luck. Other people have reported flooding after washing their cars. In fact, several people have said that they've stalled their MT cars and started them up without incident. The biggest problem has been people flooding has their ATs. I'm betting the reason is that people with ATs usually have cars that have more than one driver, and the second driver inevitably forgets to let the car warm up.