I started the "Sexual preference poll" to be funny not to offend...I did not use profanity and it was not my intent to anger the gay people in our forum....I have had hundreds of e-mails that think it was the best and funny.
Importance Of Freedom Of Speech And Expression
The importance of free speech as a basic and valuable characteristic of western society cannot be underestimated. As well as emphasizing the value of free speech, it is proposed to make an evaluation of some of the traditional restrictions on what may be freely said or published, such as the defamation laws, contempt of court, national security and so on. The approach is one which makes the case for free speech, since the world is now a place where people's unfettered freedoms are by and large in retreat. One of the difficulties inherent in discussing freedom of speech is that it contains what libertarians often describe as the paradox of freedom.
". . . there ought to exist the fullest liberty of professing and discussing, as a matter of ethical conviction, any doctrine, however immoral it might be considered."
In other words, unless we ensure to the enemies of freedom the liberties which they are keen to abuse, then we deny the essence of what we ultimately stand for and are therefore no better than those to whom we are opposed. Or as Voltaire has been paraphrased,
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

No offense meant, Doug, but this thread should be shut down too. It's off topic and gets in the way of people who actually want to talk about the RX-8 in the "RX-8 Discussion" area.

Well, you can always create your own website and put whatever you want on it... This board is privately owned and you are a guest, so that's how the cookie crumbles...

I love this forum....and my forum was based upon RX-8 content.....just let freedom of speech become important to all of us......not just because you get a little twisted........look at my contributions and look at some of the others.

Kind regards,
DG

QUOTE]Originally posted by MEGAREDS
"How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, isn't it?" [/QUOTE]


Looks like after looking at your stuff you do a lot of talking not about the RX-8....

DG

Doug, i can see your point but like BV said it's someone's domain so they have the final say.

http://zoom.cafepress.com/3/1522203_zoom.jpg

(Sorry...I just couldn't resist :D)

So your a hater doug?

That's what I'm talkin about Clyde.....right on

RX-GR8 you do make great contributions and I like what I read.

Be cool.

DG
Las Vegas

Originally posted by brothervoodoo
This board is privately owned and you are a guest

Doug - brovoodoo is absolutely right, and YOU need to do a LOT more research about exactly what "freedom of speech" means and how it applies - in this case, on a privately owned media, you've got freedom of nothing and no rights beyond what the owner grants you. THAT is the law under the US Constitution. You certainly have NO right to say whatever you want, and the owners and their agents have EVERY right to censor or delete what you write on THEIR forum. You are FREE to start your very own RX-8 forum and write whatever your heart desires there.

Plenty of people LOVE to bleat "oppression of freedom of speech!!" when they get shut down on a forum. All that means is that they haven't got a clue as to what the actual rights to free speech are and how the protection of the rights to free speech are implemented.

Regards,
Gordon

(and I'm not even an American!)

Originally posted by zerobanger
So your a hater doug?


No zerobanger I am a lover.......I judge people how they treat me.
without regard to color, sex or nationality.


zerobanger I even love you, even with your unjust opinion.

DG

Gordo....you just don't get it.
If you do not understand this basic freedom (even in a private forum) then I forgive you.

DG

Hey Doug -

I didn't get a chance to see your poll, but I did see that at least one person was offended pretty heavily, and I am guessing so was Elara because I have never seen her shut a thread before so it couldn't be read.

As an Example, some people think that racist jokes are funny, but most people here would be offended so in the interest of public harmony the forum doesn't allow that.

Just let it go. You can post about alot of other stuff, and in the end ANYTHING off point runs the risk of being shut down as off topic, and lastly this stuff really ought to be posted in the "Lounge" part of the forum.

As to your constitutional objections, that only applies to governmental action and this is not the government . . . thank God.

Have a good one and let it go man.

Originally posted by Doug Green
Originally posted by MEGAREDS
"How we deal with death is at least as important as how we deal with life, isn't it?"

Looks like after looking at your stuff you do a lot of talking not about the RX-8....

DG

The Lounge is for topics not about the RX-8. I think your thread may have fared better there...

i saw the thread and actually as i recall elara said she was moving it to the lounge but it may have been closed along the way.

Originally posted by Doug Green
No zerobanger I am a lover.......I judge people how they treat me.
without regard to color, sex or nationality.


zerobanger I even love you, even with your unjust opinion.

DG

You love me? LOL you sound like some religious freak. But seriously, I was not accusing you of being a hater, it was more of a question. I'm glad you dont hate someone based on sexuality and to not hate me is amazing.

Thanks Haze, but my poll was not "racist" by any definition.

I am sorry if some people do not understand.
The intent was good.

Kind regards,
DG

Originally posted by Doug Green
Thanks Haze, but my poll was not "racist" by any definition.


DG

NO, NO . . . I'm sorry, you've misunderstood. I was NOT saying that anything you said was racist.

I was saying that if the forum owners could not close threads such things COULD be said by OTHERS. That is why they need the ability to close threads which some might find to be offensive.

I am sure that you would never say anything like that, and again my apologies for not writing more clearly.

I've edited my previous post.

umm when in rome act like the romans?

It's cool Haze.
I enjoy your post, you have positive ideals.

Kind regards,
Doug

Doug, hundreds of emails, I rarely get 100 views on threads I start. That is impressive indeed.

220 views so far on this thread in just a couple of hours.....

Kind regards,
Doug

Doug, I was just busting balls a little bit, I took your point.

Hm, I thought the original poll was funny, for those who didn't see it it stated casually that "[it is common knowlodge] that the RX-8 is the choice of gays" and then it asked the visitor for their sexual preference, offering various grades of gay-dom (closet case), straight and - "like Michael Jackson".

It was obviously a joke (I chose "like Michael Jackson")

I also thought it was a bit off-topic and had expected it would sink to the bottom rather quick.

My $.02-- I had a thread closed 1.5 weeks ago, and also felt it was silly for the moderators to do so. I already explained why in that thread, but I'll say it again:

Moderators shouldn't be closing ANY threads unless they are racist, trolling, contain profanity/religion/politics (in an offense manner), or pornopraphy. Other than that, the PROPER thing to do on a PUBLIC FORUM IN WHICH the RX8 OWNERS OF THE WORLD are encouraged to visit (I could give a rats arse if its privately owned), is to move the proper threads into the proper forums.

Thus, as long as your other thread (or poll) was something that could be 'read'/viewed on TV such as Fox/ABC/NBC... its annoying and RUDE for the moderators to CONTROL CONTENT on a PUBLIC forum.

If you want to moderate, control and dictate then close this board to the public. Make it a private, invite-only board. I've NEVER-EVER seen such moderation on a public board.

Perhaps the moderators should look at some other forums? goto www.s2ki.com We have a place called "The Corner" and "Off Topic". Our moderators do a GREAT job of >MOVING< threads to the right places.

Thats my $.02,
Aaron

I know Senseny........I just don't think censorship ever wins.
your cool.

I feel your pain amartin.

Kind regards,
Doug

Originally posted by Doug Green
Gordo....you just don't get it.
If you do not understand this basic freedom (even in a private forum) then I forgive you.

DG

Sorry, Doug, again it's obvious that it's YOU who do not understand this basic freedom. Forgiveness has nothing to do with it - ignorance does, as you are painfully ignorant (ie not even aware of the basics of your own laws in this regard) of what freedom of speech really means.

Again, you are typical of people all over the internet who don't know what "freedom of speech" really means (at the basic level) and then use it as a defence when you don't like what happens. You really should take the time to learn, actually learn and understand, before making stupid statements like that.

Is the government or some regulatory agency restricting your right to view what you want to view on the internet, or restricting your right to start your own forum or web site to write and publish whatever you want to say? No? Then you have your freedom of speech. "freedom of speech" has absolutely NOTHING to do with whatever terms and conditions the operators of this web site impose on their registered members, who have agreed to those conditions simply by registering.

Look at it this way - do you think your "freedom of speech" gives you the right to come into my house and say whatever you want and force me to listen to you? No, it does not. I have the right to tell you to leave if I don't want you in my house and don't like what you're saying, and to have the police remove you if you refuse to comply with my wishes. You can stand outside my property line and shout all you want (ie get your own RX-8 web site), but that's it. This private web site is exactly the same - you are here on this private web site with the permission of the owner and on their terms - if you don't like it and don't follow their terms, they have every right to censor what you write here or to ban you. Censorship is when the government or some external body tries to tell the web site owners what they can and can not publish. In effect, YOU are the one trying to censor this web site!

Stop making lame excuses, stop trying to hide behind pathetic religious platitudes and weak, vague, rah-rah sentiments. Do some actual learning. You were out of line according to the owners and management of this web site. That's their decision alone. Live with it or leave, stop whining.

If you want to claim certain rights, then it's your responsibility to at least try to understand those rights - but you certainly do have the right to make yourself look stupid, which you are availing yourself of very well.

Regards,
Gordon

Mod. Please close or move this thread. It has nothing to do with the RX-8.

Gord's right - this reminds me of when parents tell their kids to stop doing something, and the kid says "it's a free country!"

Hey doug this is stupid. i don't want to have a discussion on the presidential debates or the war in Iraq on this forum. This forum is for RX-8 owners and prospective buyers. Take your discussion and put it into the lounge or something.

Realdeal, If it gets moved to the lounge all these pearls of wisdom we are throwing out there will not count towards our post count.

Gordo,
I do not resort to name calling, like you.
Perhaps your parents did not bring you up right or you have no education.
Gordo, I read all of your post last night (just for fun) and I have came to the conclusion that you just like to argue.
But that is indeed a basic freedom also.
Name call all you like (you have the right) but I will not lower myself to your level.
I am sure that the 95% of the forum that is with me on this forgives you also.

Kind regards,
Doug Green Ph.D

Ranger!......is that rump ranger?

Originally posted by Doug Green
Gordo,
I do not resort to name calling, like you.
Perhaps your parents did not bring you up right or you have no education.
Gordo, I read all of your post last night (just for fun) and I have came to the conclusion that you just like to argue.
But that is indeed a basic freedom also.
Name call all you like (you have the right) but I will not lower myself to your level.
I am sure that the 95% of the forum that is with me on this forgives you also.

Real mature. As hypocritical as can be and contributing absolutely nothing to this community. This forum is hosted on a PRIVATE server and is in no way public domain nor is subject to what you call free speech. You can be banned and your rude and offensive posts can be deleted or moved. Respect the rules and the other members. Stop whining.

Again. Mod, please move this to the Lounge or delete it.
Thanks.

Originally posted by Doug Green
Gordo,
I do not resort to name calling, like you.

Doug - along with learning what "freedom of speech" really means, you need to learn to read more carefully - specifically, more precisely.

I did not resort to "name calling" - at all - not once. I did say you were ignorant, and even explained that reference and the context in that I was using the strictly literal sense of the word - you are unaware of what freedom of speech really means, therefore you are ignorant of the meaning of freedom of speech. That's a statement of fact.

Go read again - every other statement I made that you have assumed was "name calling" was specifically with respect to your ACTIONS and STATEMENTS, not YOU. Do you understand the difference? IF I were to say that YOU are a homophobic, racist, self-righteous idiot, THEN that would be name calling. But I would never say that.

Regards,
Gordon

Being a libertarian, I understand the importance of personal freedom, including freedom of speech. But freedom must be granted to all. That includes the owners of the forum. Since they are providing the forum, we must respect their freedom to disallow posts that they consider inappropriate. Otherwise, they would be your slaves, which doesn't really fit in with my understanding of a free society.

From what I've seen the Mods here are fairly easy-going and most posts I've seen canned were due to the fact that they devolved into name-calling and/or personal attacks. IMO, rudeness like that is a perfectly good reason for shutting down a thread. It may well be that the original poster's intentions and tthe post itself were fine, but the thread got hijacked by others who took it ot of bounds.

I really didn't get a chance to see the poll before it was removed so I don't know the particulars in this case. If it was shut down simply because somebody complained that they didn't think sexual preference should be discussed, then that would be unfortunate. But the bottom line is we are having this discussion under the terms of membership that we agreed to in order to use this service which is being supplied by a private party. We may disagree with their perrogatives but we must respect their freedom to set them.

Gordo, it's cold in Canada.

Nubo,
I think you have said it best.

Kind regards,
DG

I am sorry Ranger, but remember your motto......don't leave your buddies behind.

Doug,

I'm glad you're aware of such motto. I just want to see this in the proper place.. I don't have issue with your complaint, just the location. I'll be your buddy when I get a "kind regards" from you... even though your rump ranger comment was out of line. :)

And I agree, very well spoken Nubo.

Doug, you claim to not be homophobic and that the original poll was innocent, and yet this is the second time you've referred to someone being a "rump ranger."

Ranger,

Kind regards,
Doug

noahprtlnd,
I really could care less what your preference is.

Kind regards,
Michael Jackson

Hey Doug,

How about some more pics of the little lady and her two friends instead of carrying on in this thread.


;)

Originally posted by TJRX8
Hey Doug,

How about some more pics of the little lady and her two friends instead of carrying on in this thread.


;)

I definitely second.

How stupid I am to have read this whole thread! Am I allowed to call myself names?

Seriously, I'm glad the moderators exercise their right and responsibility to protect the quality of this forum. If some people genuinely find content offensive, let's learn to respect each other.

I think you got the right idea!

Kind regards,
DG

Wtf Doug, first you make this thread complaining that your poll was removed and your freedom of speech violated, and now you agree with people that it was right for it to be removed? I'm confused.

Yes Noah you are confused!

Kind regards,
DG

Voltaire has been paraphrased,
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Gordo,
It's never too late to get an education.
Is it still cold in Canada?

Man, you're just TRYING to start a fight now. Relax.

Sorry SCiMMiA,
The truth will set you free!!!

Congratulations you've just been named our newest Stupidest Member!!

Noah,
Is that you......nice picture, I guess I did not figure you were only 12.
Anyway Noah I suggest that you get braces and go to school.
Always listen to your parents and stay off the crack pipe.
Drugs have really screwed you up. In your state they do offer help for people like you. Medication might help.
You look like you really enjoy rainbows however.

Ok, here is the deal.

Yes, this is a public forum, however it is a moderated forum and is privately owned and operated. Just like any privately owned business the people that own it have complete control over it.

Here is an example: If I went into McDonalds and started saying something that was offensive to the other patrons, the owners of said McDonalds have the right to ask me to leave. If I do not leave they have the right to force me to leave (by means of law enforcement). In doing this they would not have infringed on my right of free speach, because I would not be going to jail for what I said just for not leaving when asked to (treaspassing).

The right to free speach gives you the right to say anything you want with out government prosecution. This does not apply to any privately owned business or in this case internet forum.

If this forum was owned and operated by the government and payed for by the tax payers then you would have a case, however since this is NOT a public forum (owned by the public) you do not have the same rights.

Just my 2 cents

Originally posted by noahprtlnd
Doug, you claim to not be homophobic and that the original poll was innocent, and yet this is the second time you've referred to someone being a "rump ranger."

I noticed that as well. Doug, your poll/thread was moved and then closed because it was obvious to me and to another moderator that despite your claims to the contrary, it was homophobic in nature.

Perhaps you actually DID intend it as a joke. But it was offensive.

I think this thread should be allowed to die as quickly as possible. please don't insult me for that comment Doug, my feelings are easily hurt. I think everyone has made their points, at least twice. Me I am just commenting to add to my post count. Did I say that in my last post.

BTW rump ranger, Doug, come on, thats not even funny. I don't mind offensive toward anyone (esp whatever groups I belong to) if its funny or inventive or interesting. That being said I try not to post things that might offend anyone in a public forum where people do not know me and I don't know them or their sensibilities. Sorry to turn into a post whore on this thread.

Originally posted by SCiMMiA
I definitely second.

we've seen that one already. how about a pic without the shades? :)

I am sorry Senseny.
I really did not mean to hurt your feelings.
That really is the last thing I would do to you.
You seem very nice and your post are wonderful.
There has been hundreds of people looking at this thread which really was my intent. I have received countless e-mails that have been positive.
Most all of the people really do not want censorship unless there is profanity.
It is indeed a private forum......but do you (everyone) really want only post that "they want". If this was the case then this would be a one- sided forum.
All of you that have been offended (mostly the gay members) I am making a public apology.
The intent was to make a point (which I did).

Kind regards,
Doug

RX-GR8,
The other ones would get me kicked off.....sorry

Kind regards,
DG

Originally posted by jtimbck2
I noticed that as well. Doug, your poll/thread was moved and then closed because it was obvious to me and to another moderator that despite your claims to the contrary, it was homophobic in nature.

Perhaps you actually DID intend it as a joke. But it was offensive.


As jtimbck noted above, your poll was homophobic and offensive, and several people complained. This is partially my fault, because I meant to send you a warning when I got home that night and completely forgot. Well, here it is now. This forum will NOT tolerate homophobic comments, racist comments, or ANY type of comments that degrade, harass, or otherwise insult others, no matter what race, religion, or sexual preference. And whether you meant it or not, your poll was pretty homophobic and rude towards our gay members. This free speech stuff is nonsense, since, if you post your stance on anything politely, and wihout rancor, it will remain open to discussion. There. Happy now?

AND, you posted this in the wrong forum.

Yes I am very happy, Queen.
Are you?

I will continue to read what you want us to think.
My poll was not homophobic at all......repost it.
It asked what sexual preference did RX-8 owners have, thats all.
Are you not a playright? I would think you of all people would be against any kind of censorship.

Kind regards,
Doug Green

Doug, no sweat. You didn't hurt my feelings. I was referring to being worried about what your response to my saying the thread should die would be. I was kind of kidding around.
I wasn't really offended by the rump ranger comment. I am straight anyway. My point was only that in a place like this where hundreds of people of different backgrounds look at what we say, we should be more sensitive and not say things we might in front of friends.
Doug, who is the young lady--very nice. If she is with you, complements.
And last, since I just saw that this is now in the lounge and posts don't count anymore, I will probably bow out of this conversation.

Ok it's official, Doug is a 15 year old. From the fake picture of his "wife/gf" to the fake picture of him to the fake PhD - Elara is a copywriter not a playwright (as opposed to playright). Also, if you are so educated, you would realize how immature and ridiculous your comments are. Oh and you've received hundreds of emails? Give me a break....

Any by the way, I wasn't offended at all by the original thread - if anything, I do a lot of the offending around here. BUT I do not whine about free speech when the moderators predictably ask me to remove posts.

Okay, time to close this before it gets any uglier.

There has been hundreds of people looking at this thread which really was my intent. I have received countless e-mails that have been positive. So you admit to trolling to generate controversy at the expense of our bandwidth. For what purpose? Enlightenment?It is indeed a private forum......but do you (everyone) really want only post that "they want". If this was the case then this would be a one- sided forum.There is no "they" or "members vs. mods" here. WE are an RX-8 community forum and very close-knit. Your sarcastic comment about the Queen(which has been used in jest when referring to Elara) was obviously delivered with contempt. No one is required or to be prodded to choose sides. Your free opinion is divisive, provocative, and brings no value to the forum.The intent was to make a point (which I did). Great! Point taken. I suggest championing your free-speech-on-the-net crusade elsewhere now. Your work is done here.


Kind regards,
Toadman

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