Noticed the stage I installed thread has disappeared after getting an email to say there has been a reply to a post


Vanished..................moderator, any ideas?????

Yeah Vbulletin at its best :)

Seen this happen in a few Vb forums.

I am as frigging intrigued as you. I spent over 3 hours last night posting very detailed results from testing.

I didn't delete it.

I'm pretty annoyed.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Industry protected censorship........?

It is the sort of information than some might not like to see...

I'm a little mad...

Could be a duplicate post. Emack had three of them going...

Do a search, but there's probably 1 still alive in the Canzoomer or Aftermarket Performance forums.

Can't even find a sniff of the thread.


Something sinister ............... ?

Well, don't just sit there - REPOST!

We are all on edge waiting for some detail -
felix

Apparently emack deleted it.

I'll have to repost. It will take an hour just to re-type. It is not a one-liner. It contained a very comprehensive explanation of everything.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Don't get me wrong, I realise the effort and the piss-off factor, and I really appreciate you doing it all again!
felix

Plus it "Hymette's" birthday today, and I don't think she would like it much if I spent hours here...

Ok, how about the "in a nutshell" version?

Good? Bad? Ugly?

What's Hymee's take? (in 50 words or less) :)

Emack, any reason for the deletion


Hymette (is that junior or senior).......Happy birthday!

Hymee.......Michael will ring you! A thousand apologies!!!!!

Racerdave.........take a bow, you were the one that whinged!

Want to talk with Canzoomer before posting re Hymee, L & L, Ric Shaw and my findings, and see what his has to say first.

Hymee - Lunch is on me next time your in Sydney!!!!!!!

Hey, all I wanted was 1 post.

I certainly didn't mean to have an admin destroy them all.

But you could've saved the headache if you had posted 1 post... per the rules.

Sorry for any grief.

Its alright Racerdave, come to Sydney with Hymee and I'll buy you lunch too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha!

No, sorry mate. If I come to Sidney, for the grief I've indirectly (and unintentionally) caused, I'll buy YOU lunch.

:D

This has cast an enormous shadow on this "stage 1" mod. What's going on?

No shadow at all, Michael and I just believe (its an old school ethics thing) that we should communicate our findings with Canzoomer first.

We (as in emack , Hymee , Rick and I) want Maurice (canzoomer ) the manufacturer of Stage 1 kit to view the results of our testing prior to us posting any info on the forum.

Please be patient........

We are operating as fast as we can but we owe it to Maurice to give him our joint reports on the inconclusive findings to date.

As you can appreciate neither Rome nor the RX8 was built in a day.

Michael

Wow... I just thought I inadvertantly caused the admins to axe all of emack's posts on "Stage 1 installed."

But it appears the story is getting curious-er. :)

I'm sure this has got heads up and listening...........we await the findings..........

OK,

I need to try and settle things down a bit and offer some explanations. I might then close this thread.

Emac got his unit Monday, and posted some intial findings, but these where not measured.

L&L got his unit Tuesday, and I assisted him install it on Wednesday.

Here is the picture:

http://rx8.hymee.com/images/cz_porsche.jpg

I spent most of Wednesday with L&L and did a number of timed 40-100km/h runs, measured with a MR Dyno. Measured on a flat road, in both directions. Good quality hotmix surface, pretty smooth. Michael and I discussed that we should not release the findings until Canzoomer had the privelede to review them. We also wanted to wait until Ric end Emack did some more measured tests.

Last night, emack posted the measurements obtained with a G-Tech for 0-100km/h tests. I was intrigued that findings were now public, and I felt it would be best for all concerned to publish our findings to give some overall credibility to what had been measured in Sydney, and Brisbane. After analysis of our results I feel they showed a significant, repeatable trend.

L&L and Emac have made a decision to do the right thing by Canzoomer, and supply him with the results for his first right of reply. They are at least are obliged to do that.

Hence the thread was deleted by the originator.

At L&L's request, I will re-compile my results, and supply them to L&L so that can be passed on to CZ.

I think if we all slowed down a bit and put a temper on things, this would not have gotten to this point. I feel what I reported was equally beneficial to both Canzoomer, and the Australian RX-8 owners community. Unfortunately the removal of my report has had a negative effect.

My appologies to emack and L&L for releasing findings they didn't want released. I will re-state that emack did release his first.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Having read the original post I have to ask a question...
Could it not be that the Australia Rx8 does not have the crippled fuel map that we got here in the US?

In that case, CZ stage 1 only brings US cars up to the same or similar levels as the Aussie version. Since Ric's controller also adjusts timing, there is extra gains to be had (similar to what CZ expects to get with stage 2).

Of course I could be totally wrong.

Hymee, I just think its important that you know, that in my ignorance of how the board works, I didn't know that by deleting my posts I would also delete the entire thread.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I had no intention of deleting your info/post and ask that you accept my apology.

Emack.

I understand. And your appology accepted, although not really necessary. Don't worry!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Fascinating! This'll make a great movie! :cool:

I understand that everyone wants to both help the RX8 community and provide accurate results while protecting Canzoomer.

My confusion is this, truth is gained and attained by a collection of results being thrown out into the public so that others can make an educated decision from others findings. Wheather they be correct or not I think the function of the forum as free communication tool is diminished.

Its almost like when we had the viatnam war we knew there was a war, there was results but we were not allowed to see those results because they had to be accepted by the powers that be. It had to be accepted then shipped to the media then to the public in its new supposedly unadulterated form. This example is excessive i know but you get the point.

I dont mean to be abrasive or harmful, nor do i want to discredit Canzoomer in any way. I do mean to be honest and I honestly feel screwed when info no matter how small or insignificant or unapproved is withheld.

If i were some of the members here i would post the results on another board beause of my feelings. Im sorry all, when i feel something is wrong i do get passionate about it.

Please if im off target or wrong in any way please let me know. Im will not hesitate to apologize.

I noticed that some of our friends from the states are wondering as to the effect of cz stage 1 in Australia. It is quite possible, and i never saw the original thread, that a point Hymee made in another thread is that the control unit had never been tested in our cars. And that our ECU could be much different than the US version, Hymee has always said this could affect the way this mod may operate in Australia. Hey who knows the results may have been good or bad. I am glad though that it did wait a little bofore jumping in and buying. The results in the US have been good from all accounts. Looks like we are best sticking with Ric Shaws mod or another from someone else locally, our friends from US stay with their local product.

Zerohour,

That is one reason I posted my results. If no one had paniced, I think it would all be OK. Instead it has backfired.

L&L has asked me not to release the results until CZ has reviewed them, so I am now honoring his request.


Reeko,

I think you are quite astute. I would like to go back a short while in history to this post:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=204442#post204442

I hope anyone reading this re-reads that post, and note that it was made in December 2003. Also note I was not bagging CZ there either, just urging caution.

This sub-forum is not free advertising for anyone. CZ pays good money to advertise, and he has his own sub forum for that. As a community we also owe it to each other to report reproducable, quality results, and report our findings to each other, both bad and good.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Dale,

I would like to add that I think we should also give CZ the chance to re-configure his unit for Australia if he thinks it is worth while / necessary.

I can't be any fairer in saying that.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Yes i agree. That is more than fair.


Regards
Dale

I appreciate your response, and i also understand and respect your reasons. I do feel however that progress can be had by posting results. I do agree that some people will have excessive reactions. In the end however when all is said and done using the forum to its fullest and discussing the issue i feel is always the best and honest choice.

My view is this, should only the educated and experienced gain the privilage of information? Its kinda like voting I think even the uneducated can vote, trolls can post, and I think information should be shared. This is why Mazda still has a shadow hanging over them because they are not straight forward about the facts. People are forced to investigate on their own end up feeling that something was kept from them.

Best of luck to Canzoomer he has done the RX8 a great service and i know I for one truely appreciate it and will be ordering stage II once the bugs are worked out no matter what issues may be pending.

I had read your post with the results and I was not going to jump to any conclusions at this point. Looks like you did a good job and I like way you did them without too many varibles, as in starts and shifts.

We are still waiting for any tests or dynos here in the US. Only a few have been installed as of today, 3 I think. And butt dynos are all we have to go on so far, but it sounds promising.

I also agree with waiting until Maurice can look over your results and offer some input before any concrete opinions are made.

Actually I really think the problem is that since you guys are upside down, Maurice forgot to allow for that :)

Good luck

Originally posted by Reeko
Having read the original post I have to ask a question...
Could it not be that the Australia Rx8 does not have the crippled fuel map that we got here in the US?

In that case, CZ stage 1 only brings US cars up to the same or similar levels as the Aussie version. Since Ric's controller also adjusts timing, there is extra gains to be had (similar to what CZ expects to get with stage 2).

Of course I could be totally wrong.

Reeko

Hymee had the opportunity to drive an American RX8 that belong to a forum member whilst he was in the United states .

He reported that on his butt dyno the cars were very similar he could not differentiate betwen the Australian / American cars.

MICHAEL

I updated the picture on my about post on the previous page. I left it our earlier. Sorry.

I hope you enjoy the humor relief.

Here are some real shots installed. It is a high quality unit. The way it connects in a superbly done.

http://rx8.hymee.com/images/cz_out.jpg
http://rx8.hymee.com/images/cz_in_connectors.jpg

Cheers,
Hymee.

I've never seen so many Yankees post on the Aussie forums.......

Hey, you guys are the coolest!

Why not? :)

We hope to get our invitation for lunch too :)

Being the inquisitive Detective that i am i have just realised that in Canzoomers instructions of the installation of the ECU the serial number for the American ECU is different to the Australian rx8s.


ECU is N 3 H 6. (page6 on the instructions) American RX8.


On the Australian car the serial number on the ECU is different.

ECU IS N 3 J 6 HMMMMMMMMMMM.very interesting.

Could this be the missing link between the two cars or is it just a different production timing thing???????????

Any thoughts.

Michael

Oh all right Sea Ray...........................................

What instructions............I didn't get any and downloaded some from Canzoomers forum (albeit missing steps 5 & 6).

Good pickup Lock!

emack

Can zoomers did not send instructions with stage 1 i downloaded them from the updated instruction site .From the 18th of january Maurice added extra instructions , hence you may have missed pages 5 & 6 .

Michael

I wondered why I had all those wires left over.........

Might be better to put the Testastretta under the bonnet ;-)

To resume this. Hundreds of people read the thread:
Even if it is only Australia RX-8's there were like this:

0-100km/hr:
Emack stock vs Emack with with CZ Ecu : No difference
Ric Shaw ECU got better times.

Results are Results. Even if it can be fixed or improved later.

I seem to remember a disclaimer somewhere about this only being tested on US/Canada spec cars... we knew our cars were different... I even remember Hymee posting about ours running leaner or something?! Is anyone really surprised? Caveat Emptor... :)

Originally posted by pepe
Caveat Emptor... :)


????

Oh, Canberra.

I have stood on the outside of all of these go fast threads because I am one of those weird people who thinks that the car is sufficiently quick as it is. However, for what its worth some of my thoughts on the matter. I freely admit I have minimal knowledge of automotive engineering. However, I am a professional scientist who uses a pretty rigorous approach to logic in my day to day work. Feel free to shoot me down.

One line of thought would be that all of the people offering these kits are in effect putting themselves up against the combined automotive engineering experience of a company with more than 40 years experience in rotary motors, and have been developing the Renesis motor for over 8 years. If you read the glossy book that we all got, you get the impression that these guys know a bit. We have heard about Helmholtz tuning in design of intake manifolds, we have heard about near optimal stoichiometry in fuel mixtures, all of these sorts of things. I know we read about gifted amateurs coming out of the woodwork to baffle the boffins, but such instances are rare.

The RX-8 isn't like an old Holden or Falcon, an automotive lump of clay waiting for gifted mechanics to tarnsform it into a fire-breathing beast. It was designed from the bottom up to be the flgship car of the new Mazda fleet. My impression is that consistent with such limitations imposed by emission control and product longevity, they have come pretty close to squeezing out near to what is practical from the design. What's left comes down to the law of diminishing returns, with possibly somewhat an inverse square relationship existing between dollars spent and kW gained.

In measuring these gains, there appears to be a great deal of subjectivity; people speak about butt dynometers and using instrumentation which also appears to be subject to controversy. All of this makes me cringe. I'm an analytical chemist, and I deal only in things which can be accurately measured and are repeatable and reproducible. There doesn't seem to be much of this going on here. An extra few kW claimed is almost within normal statistical variations.

At the end of the day, people have the right to spend their money on what makes them happy. I say, if you want to bolt stuff on, ream it, steam it, dry clean it, and if it makes you feel good, go for it.

Meanwhile, I just cruise around in my pure unadulterated, virgin, pristine and untouched little 8...

Manufacturers will always crank back the level of tuning for a car like this due to the green laws, longevity, noise, harshness, etc. There's usually scope for tuners to perform a few tweaks to get another 5~10% out of an engine (even this rotary) without too much danger.

CZ didn't have an Oz car to play with, that's it!

I'm certain the Hymee's and Ric's will find a few more ponies given a little time.

As for repeatable tests, the drag strip with/without a piggyback active will tell us, with consistent 0.5 second (or better) 1/4 times as the yardstick. (Yes, same car, same day, same temp, same driver, same revs, same changes...)

Originally posted by Kev
Manufacturers will always crank back the level of tuning for a car like this due to the green laws, longevity, noise, harshness, etc. There's usually scope for tuners to perform a few tweaks to get another 5~10% out of an engine (even this rotary) without too much danger.



More importantly, to protect their warranties and following in from thatm their reputations

Labrat... the other thing to keep in mind is that Canzoomer wasn't sure this would work in Oz because the tuning could've been different and he didn't have an Australian car to test.

However, it is a known, documented fact that in the North American market, Mazda richened up the mixture of the rotary to meet the insane new US requirement that OEM catalytic converters last 120,000 miles. The rotary's high exhaust temps meant that at higher revs, a leaner mixture means more heat... and reduced cat life.

Mazda did this at the port, *before* the first cars were delivered. People were wondering why there was a delay in getting the first cars, and that was it. The infamous "downgrading" of HP followed.

So what Canzoomer did was try to bring the car back to it's "original" spec, before Mazda made its mods. In other words, as the car was intended originally.

He believed the Japan-spec cars were already tuned this way. But what he was unsure of was whether the Australian cars were "dumbed down" like the NA cars or not.

So actually, for the NA market, there is a fairly significant HP gain above 5K available with his mod.

But Ric Shaw sounds like he's able to extract some extra power from the Australian-spec cars.

So while I normally agree with your philosophy about leaving a car stock, in the NA case, I think it's a fairly straightforward mod that will bring back the "lost" HP.

Originally posted by labrat
[B]However, I am a professional scientist who uses a pretty rigorous approach to logic in my day to day work.

Although not a scientist, I tried to follow a repeatable process for obtaining the results. Hopefully you will be able to review that for yourself when the embargo on my report has been lifted.

One line of thought would be that all of the people offering these kits are in effect putting themselves up against the combined automotive engineering experience of a company with more than 40 years experience in rotary motors, and have been developing the Renesis motor for over 8 years. If you read the glossy book that we all got, you get the impression that these guys know a bit.

That is true to a certain extent, but the guys designing the cars don't always get the final say, despite there best intentions. Just look at the state of the roads in this country - do you think the Civil Engineers really want them like that?


they have come pretty close to squeezing out near to what is practical from the design. What's left comes down to the law of diminishing returns, with possibly somewhat an inverse square relationship existing between dollars spent and kW gained.


I have often wondered that myself, particularly with this engine.


In measuring these gains, there appears to be a great deal of subjectivity; people speak about butt dynometers and using instrumentation which also appears to be subject to controversy. All of this makes me cringe. I'm an analytical chemist, and I deal only in things which can be accurately measured and are repeatable and reproducible. There doesn't seem to be much of this going on here. An extra few kW claimed is almost within normal statistical variations.


I have first hand experience at trying to make reproducable results that people will listen to. You can post dyno graphs, and people will say "but I still want to see how it performs on the track". You get out on the track, and there are a whole bunch of other variables. Heck - my 15 seconds RX-8 has done a better 1/4 time than my mates 11 second ute.


At the end of the day, people have the right to spend their money on what makes them happy. I say, if you want to bolt stuff on, ream it, steam it, dry clean it, and if it makes you feel good, go for it.


Thats right - it is all a matter of personal preference. But in a place like this we are trying to post information and let others know how it goes. The hardest part is to use some form of measurement that is invariant. Unfortunatley one does not really exist.


Meanwhile, I just cruise around in my pure unadulterated, virgin, pristine and untouched little 8...

Maybe that is one reason why my virgin Red RX-8 is a full second quicker than the Yellow RX-8 (Canzoomer mod turned off) I tested the other day in a 40-100 km/h power run. Hehehe. I'm not allowed to say how much quicker mine is stock compared to the Stage 1 turned "On" tests :p)

Cheers,
Hymee.

Boys hold on to your mouses/ and whatever else you hold ontu when you suffer from Anxiety .

Maurice has recieved our report from Downunder , and will evaluate it and get back to meas soon as possible.

Then the embargo that HYMEE has been reffering to MAY be lifted .

Its a PITY that no one has really THANKED the forum MEMBERS who have gone to a lot of Financiall as well as Mentall and Emotional Expense and who may have risked their precious cars in order to get the required stage 1 results .

Yes we have choosen to be Guinea pigs however a bit of appreciation instead of the negative feedback would go a long way .

SO BE PATIENT AND APPRECIATIVE OF WHAT OTHERS ARE TRYNG TO DO FOR EVERYONES ELSES BENEFIT AS WELL AS OUR OWN .

Glad i got that of my chest .

Michael

AMEN Michael!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

L&L ... Mate ... !!!

Nobody has it in for the people that put up the bucks, but you're not guinea pigs, you are early adopters. Just like all of the early RX8 buyers.

So you spent some money on an engine mod - you'd be happy if you were blowing away porches - the likely fact that you're not is a shame. I wish you were.

My opinion ... If CZ want's to sell his work to Oz owners, he should have gone with a pilot that was agreed and cost reduced.

I like the idea of go fast bits, but I also like the idea of being able to walk up to a person and say "it's not right" to their face.

L&L, you're certainly brave for risking the ugrade, but please don't expect anything but anxious and unsettled vibes. Otherwise you should have kept you install secretive in the first place.

Just my 2c,

Kev.

Hey L&L,

It is 5:30am in Utah. In only a 1/2 hour it will be 6:00am. Heck - you rang me not long after 6 the other morning :p

Cheers,
Hymee.

Originally posted by Lock & Load

Its a PITY that no one has really THANKED the forum MEMBERS who have gone to a lot of Financiall as well as Mentall and Emotional Expense and who may have risked their precious cars in order to get the required stage 1 results .

Yes we have choosen to be Guinea pigs however a bit of appreciation instead of the negative feedback would go a long way .

SO BE PATIENT AND APPRECIATIVE OF WHAT OTHERS ARE TRYNG TO DO FOR EVERYONES ELSES BENEFIT AS WELL AS OUR OWN .

Glad i got that of my chest .

Michael

Michael,nobody is knocking the efforts of canzoomer and those that have parted with $$$$$ to get the kit.

All we know is that there were some Aussie performance reports, and not even 24 hours later the posts were deleted. Of course questions will be asked.

Heck, when i was developing my race car, I dumped many $$$$ into the endless money pit, over $4K developing the brakes, over $20K on the engine.......and for what? A lot of self satisfaction, and to have others ask how and what so they can do the same at a much reduced cost ( I told them to bugger off though)

To you and emack, all I say is well done, because I've been there too.

Just another example of censorship...........not what the majority wants

You know what guys, its my fault no one elses! I was too quick with my keyboard.

The fact of the matter is that nobody I know of has put as much time, money and effort into a product for the 8 than Canzoomer. I purchased a product from canzoomer knowing that it was extensively tested in the US/Canada but slightly unconvinced that the existing map would work as well in Oz.

Now we've run tests, my first communication should have been with the guy that developed and sold me the product and in an attempt to recoup that position, I have created an unwanted shitstorm for us all which was not my intention.

You will go a long way before you find a more stand up guy than Maurice (Canzoomer) and he has already been in contact with us about our feedback on his products performance with Oz spec cars.

While we wait for the answers to come, why don't we focus more on why my 8 (before the Stage 1 was installed) produced 5kw at the rear wheel more than Ric Shaw's and why Hymee's outguns Lock's (both in standard form) by approx 1 sec in their 40-100 comparisons.

Wouldn't you say this piece in the puzzle is as equally important as any issues surrounding Canzoomer's stage 1, as the mod extends base line performance.

Once again, I'm sorry for my jumping the gun and after we've talked to Canzoomer some more, we'll be right back to y'all.

Paul.

Well said Emack...................

Soon all will be revealed be patient grasshoppers.

michael

Originally posted by Lock & Load
Well said Emack...................

Soon all will be revealed be patient grasshoppers.

michael

I always though he should have stomped on the old guy's foot before he went for the pebble - but that's just me... :)

Dang... I better get to Sydney soon to take emack up on his lunch offer. Seems like it wasn't my "multiple thread whinging" that deleted his posts after all!

:)

emack's putting all the interstaters up at the Regent overnight, so you'll be able to relax ... he also said something like "lobster and moet till you drop, then do it all again".

great guy that emack!

so what's that gunna be for the boys from the bush...the Y, meat pies, and all the Tooheys you can drink.

Who else will be at Wakefield on April 2? If Hymee performs I shall have his exhaust fitted by then, and anticipate with excitement meeting many of you and your mods.

BTW I did an advanced driver day at Wakefield about 4 years ago with a bunch of wrx owners from the Armidale/Tamworth area. A great day out: unfortunately even then I was beyond the age of remembering all that I am taught.

JAX8

If everything goes according to plan i will be at wakefield .
See you then.

michael

Maurice firstly a big thankyou for spending over 40 minutes on the phone with me this morning, answereing all my questions with precision as usual.

Both Emack, Hymee and myself will be conducting all the further releavant testing required to re-adjust the stage 1 kit to suit the Australian RX8s.

I am 110% convinced that with the re-adjustment of the stage 1 we will have even faster cars than our US counterparts. As our state of tune seems to be higher/better than the RX8s in US.

It took Hymee and myself approx. 1 hour to install the stage 1 kit, although we took pictures and joked around while we were installling it.

The installation instructions are excellent and are easy to follow. Once the unit was installed, switched to the ON position, we took off. DSC light came on however we managed to get it to switch off.

There is a smooth and evident boost in the 5000 rpm and up range, especially in the lower gears. Lots of fun and rapid acceleration.

Below 5000 rpm, we noticed an intermittent power phase lag. However at times it was hard to notice this lag, but it is evident intermittently.

As I stated earlier we are working together with Maurice to re-adjust our maps to suit the Australian RX8s specifically. My advice is since there is no other ECU unit that comes near the quality and workmanship of Maurice's stage 1, I'd be sitting tight, saving my money and looking forward to Maurice re-adjusting the stage 1 kit.

So don't worry, be happy and shortly get ready for the revised stage 1 Australian RX8 review.

Cheers

Michael

Duplicate, no, triplicate post -- I thought this was not encouraged. Perhaps at least the two threads in the Aus section should be consolidated :confused:

Timbo

Congratulations on posting another Anal Retentive response .

The thread was posted in different sections to make sure that all that inquired and complained about the restricted info on the stage1 kit nowwas available for all to see .

michael

… which would possibly be acceptable if the post wasn't self-indulgent and provided objective information over and above that which we have already seen. Where is "all the info" then?

So lets see...........crucified for no information and self indulgent when we provide information.....................are you male or female Timbo?!...........sounds like the type of trouble I get into all the time with my wife:)

Originally posted by emack
So lets see...........crucified for no information and self indulgent when we provide information.....................are you male or female Timbo?!...........sounds like the type of trouble I get into all the time with my wife:)

I feel timbo is neither arthur nor martha he likes having an each way bet .ha ha ha.

Emack you shouldnt be so hard on Timbo ,maybe its that time of the month./ year ,ha ha ha.

I for one have decided i will not be posting or sharing any more information on the stage 1 on the Australian forum .

I will carry out the further tests that i have disscused with maurice at my own expense and if any one wants more info i suggest you ask maurice .

cheers
michael

Thread closed. :)