Here is a short summary of what the PATRIOT ACT is about:

The actions of the government have been shrouded in a cloak of secrecy that is incompatible with democratic government. Hundreds of non-citizens have been rounded up and detained, many for months, in violation of constitutional protections, judicial decisional authority and INS policy. The government has repeatedly resisted requests for information regarding the detainees by loved ones, lawyers and the press; it has denied detainees access to legal representatives; and has conducted its hearings in secret, in some cases denying the very existence of such hearings. In a democracy, the actions of the government must be transparent or our ability to vote on policies and the people who create those policies becomes meaningless.

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the government's actions has been its attack on the Bill of Rights, the very cornerstone of our American democracy. The War on Terror has seriously compromised the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights of citizens and non-citizens alike. From the USA PATRIOT Act's over-broad definition of domestic terrorism, to the FBI's new powers of search and surveillance, to the indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, the principles of free speech, due process, and equal protection under the law have been seriously undermined.

Finally, the United States' actions with regard to prisoners held at Camp Delta at the Guantanamo Bay naval station have been in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions. These prisoners are being held as "unlawful combatants," a term that has no meaning in international law. The government's disregard for international law can only serve to encourage other nations to act likewise and undermine the very War on Terrorism it seeks to fight.

The result of all of these actions has been the deliberate, persistent, and unnecssary erosion of the basic rights that protect every citizen and non-citizen in the United States. A free society demands the rule of law. Without it, democracy is meaningless. The government has consistently refused to recognize the protections afforded by the US Constitution and international law, and in doing so, it has failed in its responsibility to maintain a democratic society that is both open to, and accountable to, the people.

For further information look up "patriot act" on the internet.

Looking forward to your opinions!

I am against the patriot act....because of the violation of rights.

I do believe that it is a well intentioned law. Right now I do believe that law enforcement personnel are using their judgement to use it correctly.

BUT.

I do believe that the law leaves open the potential for abuse and as we all know, if something can be abused, it will be abused.....sooner or later.

In a larger context, we are witnessing a tradeoff. You can never have the security of a police state with the openess of a free society. So, if you want more security, you need to give up some freedoms. I am not saying that this is right or wrong. My point is that we need to be aware of what we are giving up in order to feel more secure.

Personally, I am uncertain that the Act will actually change anything regarding terrorism in the long run. For that reason, I am unwilling to give up my rights for it.

I'd like to point out that this forum is fine for discussion, but what did YOU persdonally actually do about this? If all your doing is talking about how unfair it all is, then you really need to re-think your strategy.

Remember, it's the citizens that vote politians into office. As soon as people stop voting with their wallets and vote with their brains, things will change. Until then? Dont hold your breath.

Originally posted by Genom
I'd like to point out that this forum is fine for discussion, but what did YOU persdonally actually do about this? If all your doing is talking about how unfair it all is, then you really need to re-think your strategy.

Remember, it's the citizens that vote politians into office. As soon as people stop voting with their wallets and vote with their brains, things will change. Until then? Dont hold your breath.

I am making people aware of this problem by posting this poll. This is what I do about it. What is it you are doing about it ?

qberror you have posted that message several times now. i get the feeling from reading it that it comes not from you (although you seem to agree with it) but probably some political group which sent it out to many people probably in an email. care to share the source of that propaganda?

also what portion of the constitution gives equal rights to non- citizens? if they are non-citizen's than shouldn't the countries that they are citizen's of be doing more to protect the rights they have under that countries laws?

Originally posted by zoom44
qberror you have posted that message several times now. i get the feeling from reading it that it comes not from you (although you seem to agree with it) but probably some political group which sent it out to many people probably in an email. care to share the source of that propaganda?

You are right I did not write that statement. Here is the link to the source:

http://www.ccr-ny.org/v2/whatsnew/report.asp?ObjID=nQdbIRkDgG&Content=153

I do agree with that 100%

Originally posted by zoom44
also what portion of the constitution gives equal rights to non- citizens? if they are non-citizen's than shouldn't the countries that they are citizen's of be doing more to protect the rights they have under that countries laws?

Citizenship should not matter. We are all equal. That's the way it is in all democratic countries except the US now (thanks to the patriot act). But my concern is not so much about the foreigners in your country, it's more on the US citizen. Your country is fighting for freedom in other countries, yet they don't honor that for their own people. That does seem odd.

This unfortunatly is how we must fight terrorism. If we don't, then then the terrorists will have a nice shield to hide behind. If you haven't done anything wrong, then you have nothing to fear. I have nothing to hide so I really don't give a crap what the Gov does as long as terrorism is slowing down. I sure as hell don't want to be Bin Laden's next victim! But, everyone has the right to voice thier opinion. There are still lots of countries where the people can't do that. So, count your lucky stars for the freedoms you have now. Keep in mind that if 911 never happened, the "Patriot Act" probably would be non-exsistent.

Originally posted by qberror
I am making people aware of this problem by posting this poll. This is what I do about it. What is it you are doing about it ?

I vote. I write letters to my local polititians. I make people aware of HOW to fight the issue's. Not just tell them about it.

Originally posted by Genom
I vote. I write letters to my local polititians. I make people aware of HOW to fight the issue's. Not just tell them about it.

Great! We make a good team! Together we can make a better world. Let's keep at it ;)

A really good poll.......We may as well just call the office of homeland security the "SS"..

Originally posted by qberror
Here is a short summary of what the PATRIOT ACT is about:

The actions of the government have been shrouded in a cloak of secrecy that is incompatible with democratic government. Hundreds of non-citizens have been rounded up and detained, many for months, in violation of constitutional protections, judicial decisional authority and INS policy. The government has repeatedly resisted requests for information regarding the detainees by loved ones, lawyers and the press; it has denied detainees access to legal representatives; and has conducted its hearings in secret, in some cases denying the very existence of such hearings. In a democracy, the actions of the government must be transparent or our ability to vote on policies and the people who create those policies becomes meaningless.

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of the government's actions has been its attack on the Bill of Rights, the very cornerstone of our American democracy. The War on Terror has seriously compromised the First, Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendment rights of citizens and non-citizens alike. From the USA PATRIOT Act's over-broad definition of domestic terrorism, to the FBI's new powers of search and surveillance, to the indefinite detention of both citizens and non-citizens without formal charges, the principles of free speech, due process, and equal protection under the law have been seriously undermined.

Finally, the United States' actions with regard to prisoners held at Camp Delta at the Guantanamo Bay naval station have been in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions. These prisoners are being held as "unlawful combatants," a term that has no meaning in international law. The government's disregard for international law can only serve to encourage other nations to act likewise and undermine the very War on Terrorism it seeks to fight.

The result of all of these actions has been the deliberate, persistent, and unnecssary erosion of the basic rights that protect every citizen and non-citizen in the United States. A free society demands the rule of law. Without it, democracy is meaningless. The government has consistently refused to recognize the protections afforded by the US Constitution and international law, and in doing so, it has failed in its responsibility to maintain a democratic society that is both open to, and accountable to, the people.

For further information look up "patriot act" on the internet.

Looking forward to your opinions!


I support the patriot act. It is a step in the right direction to fight terrorism in the U.S.A. I just hope it si not abused, with power comes responsibility.

Originally posted by rotarymagic
I support the patriot act. It is a step in the right direction to fight terrorism in the U.S.A. I just hope it si not abused, with power comes responsibility.

You are wrong. Your basic rights are beeing violated. They can arrest you without any reason and who will stand up for your rights then if you dont stand up for other peoples rights ?

Be careful, they might watch every step you are making !