http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/16/hubble.telescope.ap/index.html

I'm in shock. The Hubble is one of my favorite things ever and now it's going to be left to die.

What kind of people can look at something as beautiful as the images produced by the Hubble and not want more?

Vince

The same kind of people who brought us shock and awe.

The same people who planned to attack Iraq BEFORE 911.

The same people who reveled the identy of CIA operatives for telling the truth about iraq NOT trying to buy plutonium

The same people who used ENRON to plan their energy strategy

The same people who awarded chaneys company billions in Iraq contracts w/o putting it up for bid.

The same people who gutted the UN

The same people who have run up a enormous deficit...

The same people who spent millions to go after clinton for, god forbid, lying about a BJ

The same people who are up for re election SOON!!!!

Mental note: " Klegg may not vote for Bush in november". Just a hunch... :-)

That obvious? I really hate the b*&^%$#!!

I was at the doctors yeasterday, picked up TIME, and saw page after page of little pixs of dead solders...I think about thier familys and get real PISSED OFF!!

OMG this is terrible! The Hubble has contributed more in its short lifetime with good eyesight :) than any other single instrument built by humans. Let's hope the next generation telescopes being planned aren't axed as well!


Originally posted by compaddict
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/16/hubble.telescope.ap/index.html

I'm in shock. The Hubble is one of my favorite things ever and now it's going to be left to die.

What kind of people can look at something as beautiful as the images produced by the Hubble and not want more?

Vince

The Hubble comes way too close to something with vision. Why would a deaf, dumb, blind appointed President want something like that?

i think we should make one last mission to hubble when it's life has ended. go up haul it back into the shuttle bay(removing whatever you have to to make it fit) and bring it back down to be kept on display at the smithsonian. letting burn up would be just wrong. but eventually have to move on to the next better thing. i love the hubble telescope and hate to see it go.

Just heard in the news... Shocked really. I myself ain't too keen on astrology but I see Hubble as a door to the universe.

Just shut ...

well i hope Bush knows what he's doing and is truly going to put the money to better use...namely the International Space Station and the mission to Mars...the last thing i want to do in my lifetime before i die is take a trip to outer space and while the Hubble telescope revolutionized astronomy, it isn't going to help me fulfill that dream...if we start colonizing Mars now, at least my kids will have something to look forward to

Before they decommission it, they should turn it around to search for signs of intelligent life in the White House.

Originally posted by eccles
Before they decommission it, they should turn it around to search for signs of intelligent life in the White House.


ROFL

It also said they will be working on a new much stronger Telescope and this will go into orbit as well.

The main question is when. If its more cost effective and we get a better Telescope im all for it. If its all BS then thats a totally different issue.

I think its kinda sad they will be retireing the Space Shuttle moreso than the Hubble. Its truely one of the best parts of our history.

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Originally posted by zoom44
i think we should make one last mission to hubble when it's life has ended. go up haul it back into the shuttle bay(removing whatever you have to to make it fit) and bring it back down to be kept on display at the smithsonian. letting burn up would be just wrong. This was supposed to be the plan, but Bush has abandoned this, too. Now they're gonna strap a rocket to Hubble to slow it's orbit and let it burn up.

As far as I'm concerned, abandoning Hubble is a Crime Against Humanity (ok, a bit of hyperbole but you get my point.) The scientfic advances it is achieving are unparalleled in human history. Talk about exploring the universe; this thing is looking back into time within a fraction of the Big Bang. It's discoveries about Dark Matter and Dark Energy are rewriting theories of how the Universe works. Cancelling it is simply a reflection of the President's mind, like what Paul O'Neil said in his recent book: Bush is incapable of intellectual curiousity. He can picture a man standing on the moon or Mars, but he cannot envision the more intangible gains from the HST. It is such a shame.

Originally posted by selmeralto
The same kind of people who brought us shock and awe. The same guy who cancelled extra living quarters in the Space Station. It takes like 2.5 astronauts just to run the space station (take care of basic systems and maintenance.) With a crew of 3, that leaves half a person for scientific investigation. When Bush took office, we were supposed to add living quarters for three more people, meaning there would be 3.5 people doing scientific studies in space, a 700 percent increase in research capacity. One of Bush's first acts was to cancel that extra module, so for the price of a space station all we are doing is barely keep it in orbit with little if any of the research -- which was, after all, the whole point of the space station. The man has zero vision. Plus, he's never going to get this Mars thing; our nation is broke having returned trillions to his rich oil friends. The end result in this flap will be loss of Hubble, loss of the space station, loss of the shuttle fleet, and no advance in any moon or Mars program. The guy is sooo transparent. This may well spell the ultimate destruction and dismantling of NASA, which is probably Bush's true objective anyway.

Originally posted by selmeralto
The same kind of people who brought us shock and awe. The same guy who backed out of the Kyoto treaty after years of global negotiations it was ready for ratification.

The same guy who wants to dig up the Alaskan National Wildlife Refuge.

The same guy (Cheney) who said "Energy conservation is a great personal attribute but nothing on which you can build a national policy."

The same guy who unraveled a national economy that, for the first time in two generations, was on the verge of paying off its national debt, instead plunging us into deficit unparalleled in human history, passing the bill for our profligate spending to our children and their children.

Ahhhh, a man after my owen heart..

Originally posted by eccles
Before they decommission it, they should turn it around to search for signs of intelligent life in the White House.

I would rather watch it burn.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
I would rather watch it burn.

Vince

the telescope or the white house? ;)

I like the White House, but I would hate to see the Hubble wasted on something we already know.

Vince

The same guy who took credit for passing the "No Child Left Behind Act" then failed to allocate any funding for it in his budget, effectively leaving all children behind.

The same guy who rolled back requirements for emissions control when power plants expand, undoing 20 years of hard-earned environmental protection.

The same guy who lined out restrictions in arsenic limitations from stripmining over the objections of his own scientific advisors.

Guys, the BBC article I read on NASA's decision was that it was too dangerous to get an astronaut to the Hubble to replace the failing gyros because there was no way to rescue the crew should something go wrong. (The Hubble's orbit is too high.)NASA denied any connection between the decision to allow the station to fall out of orbit and the newly proposed Mars mission. The next "super telescope" is due to be operational in 2012 and will be several times better than Hubble. I love astronomy as much as the next person and actually have a 5 inch scope myself, but let's get our facts sorted out before we blame the Mars mission.

Addendum: Just checked the Washington Post: "O'Keefe said the decision to scrap the next scheduled servicing mission to the telescope that revolutionized astronomy was based on safety issues concerning the shuttle rather than budget considerations." Also, see this thread from the BBC:Why Hubble Is Being Dropped (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3406079.stm)

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Guys, the BBC article I read on NASA's decision was that it was too dangerous to get an astronaut to the Hubble to replace the failing gyros because there was no way to rescue the crew should something go wrong. Civics lesson Number One: Let's learn to think for ourselves, analyze facts and reach our own conclusions. Don't blindly accept the pablum spoon fed to the public via the media who do very little independent analysis on their own.

The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) has always held the same orbit. There has never been any method of rescue either proposed or planned. Rescue of astronauts during an HST service visit simply is not, nor ever has been, a mission priority. They travel on the shuttle which has its own redundant systems, but even shuttle missions have no rescue alternative "built in." One of the most predictable of the sciences is orbital mechanics; there simply are no unknown variables. Knowing the required orbit of the HST and capabilities of the shuttle fleet, it was evident many years before the HST was ever built that "rescue" during an HST mission was impractical. They didn't just suddenly figure this out.

Please provide us the link to the BBC article; I'd like to read it for myself. But just like the administration who decided they would invade Iraq (well before 9/11) then set about to find a justifiable reason, they have decided to cancel HST, primarily because there is no available funding left in the national budget, now they're scoping around to find a justifiable reason. Examine the behavior of the politician, not their words. Past actions, not promises, are the best predictor of future behavior. This administration has shown lack of commitment to scientific endeavors, and they have shown willingness to decide first, then collect justification later. Both those tendencies are coming together in one neat package with the demise of HST.

Read my lips: HST is only the first victim. NASA will be effectively gutted by the time Bush leaves office. You are just seeing the first stages of a carefully orchestrated scheme to make it seem like a Herculean effort to give them a grandiose mission that simply won't pan out. Space station and shuttle fleet are next, and there will be nothing of significance to replace them, certainly no more manned exploration. The public and worldwide scientific community should be in an uproar about being victimized by one small-minded individual who has no capacity to see beyond his re-election campaign.

But that's just me talkin'.

The loss of the hubble will be a sad day, but if the newer better one does come thru, those images should be soo much better.

I also am into astro imaging, although a far cry from hubble or even other amateur imagers. But here are a couple of my more interesting ones.

This is the Eagle Nebula, M16. Image is 3 x 10 minutes combined. Scope is a 12" Meade LX200gps

This is the Sculptor Galaxy.

Also 3 x 10 minutes combined.

This is a very faint nebula, not visible thru most scopes.

This galaxy is called an edge on, notice the dark dust lanes.

After you look at mine, and think they are pretty good :) Go to this web site, not for slow connections. Rob Gendler is probably the best amateur in the country. He is a master and produces images that are almost hubble quality.

www.robgendlerastropics.com

Wonderful pix; thanks for sharing them. Regrettably, Hubble's replacement is not even under construction yet, and its development is behind schedule due to under-funding. Sorry to say, it won't be ready before the shuttle fleet retires. As soon as that is evident to everyone, they are certain to cease development on the new telescope. At least we have your 10" scope which generates beautiful pictures. :-)

The Sombrero galaxy from a 200+ MB Tif. Six foot by four foot print.

Vince

That has to be a cool poster, a lot of faint detail I would think. Here was my very first try with it, only a single 10 minute exposure taken with an 8" scope. Still pretty neat what can be done with commercially avail scopes.

Wow! I had no idea!

I thought the Hubble Telescope's greatest contribution was to our current understanding of the universe and its history. The observations it provided played a large part in helping revive the Cosmological Constant term in the Einstein equations to reconcile the difference in the age of the oldest stars in the universe vs. the predicted age of the universe. An area the telescope's namesake helped advance.

A premature loss of these observations is a shame. Of course, as the US foots the bill, I don't feel I am in any position to criticize the decision, only mourn the loss.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
After you look at mine, and think they are pretty good :) Go to this web site, not for slow connections. Rob Gendler is probably the best amateur in the country. He is a master and produces images that are almost hubble quality.

www.robgendlerastropics.com

I have been thinking about a 14" meade, LX200GPS-SMT Schmidt-Cassegrain. They are having a sale were they give you a lens pack for free with your order

"receive a $650 full set of Meade premium-grade Super Plössl eyepieces for only $99."

The price is high, but I think it would be a good thing for the kids.

Do you have an opinion on this scope, or any recomendations?

This was a waste of money in the first place. The money would have been better spent helping the poor and the needy around the world.

Science should never be considered a waste of money!

Why are we responsible for the poor and needy around the world? In the US I can understand, but the whole world?

If all the money spent on foreign aid was spent at home..........

This is a real big can of worms, let talk cars, and stars

We need to stop gazing at the stars and going to Mars, roll up our sleeves and fix this planet. Then when we are done we can play star trek.

please sir, this isn't a miss universe pageant where they ask you what you'd do if you had one wish...billions of US dollars already go towards poor and needy nations, even those that hate our guts...there isn't enough money in the world to even put a dent in those nations that are so deep in their own cultural, social, economic, and/or religious problems if they themselves don't want a change or even help from us...the more the US tries to help the more we're labelled the "World Police", what then? we still help...

the best way to understanding our world is looking upon history and making better use of our technology...the HST did that for us

ps - let's not make this into a political debate...it's about the HST

Originally posted by BRx8
please sir, this isn't a miss universe pageant where they ask you what you'd do if you had one wish... let's not make this into a political debate...it's about the HST

I think it's disingenuous to say that we can discuss the policy decision to abandon the Hubble as if it weren't a political issue.

There are at least two senses in which the decision is clearly political:

1. Any decision about governmental spending affects other decisions about governmental spending. We can't fairly evaluate particular policy decisions in a vacuum.

2. The timing of the decision about the Hubble and the decision itself have clear political overtones in the context of the runup to a national election.

An additional point. I don't think it raises the level of discussion to cast aspersions by comparing honest attempts to put the Hubble decision in a wider context with the silliness of Miss America responses.

Sea Ray, wow! Great work!

Those nebuae pix are awsome, and they bring to mind that they are what gives birth to new stars.

It's the Hubble though that broke loose of the barrier of earth's atmosphere and gravity. That's why it exists and I don't understand why it's going to be brought down. A darned shame for sure...

Originally posted by selmeralto
I think it's disingenuous to say that we can discuss the policy decision to abandon the Hubble as if it weren't a political issue.

There are at least two senses in which the decision is clearly political:

1. Any decision about governmental spending affects other decisions about governmental spending. We can't fairly evaluate particular policy decisions in a vacuum.

2. The timing of the decision about the Hubble and the decision itself have clear political overtones in the context of the runup to a national election.

An additional point. I don't think it raises the level of discussion to cast aspersions by comparing honest attempts to put the Hubble decision in a wider context with the silliness of Miss America responses.

let me rephrase - let's not make this into a socioeconomic debate which it has little to do with...ending world poverty and hunger by applauding the demise of one of the greatest scientific tools of our time is wishful thinking...simply stated, you can plug in this "end world hunger and poverty" issue into just about any situation, i just don't believe it belongs in this one...:)

Thanks Racer,

I still like the galaxies more because they offer hope that there must be other life out there. Our own galaxy is but 1 of perhaps billions and billions. The Hubble deep space images shows almost an unlimted number of galaxies in it. The area of the sky it shows is equal to holding a grain of sand at arms length, a very small portion of space.

But since you like the nebulas, here is a very large one called the Helix nebula.

Abandon Hubble and turn around and announce a plan to spend $1.5 Billion on "promoting marriage". (heterosexuals only need apply)

November 2004 is closer than you think. Remember to VOTE!

I appreciate the rephrase, BRx8.

For my part, I don't applaud the demise of the Hubble. In fact, I was saddened to hear of it.

But the decision was tied to grandiose statements about space exploration that, if actually funded at the appropriate levels, would seriously cut into social programs for generations to come. At a time when social programs--in and out of this country--are being cut back severely (see the first few posts of this thread), this would would be irreponsible.

Of course, bearing in mind the electoral politics, it's also possible that the Bush administration is floating some of their plans simply as campaign rhetoric...

selmeralto, I understand your concern but I just don't see this getting through Congress. Many of them are taking serious heat right now. The Republican Party has always been known as the party of fiscal responsibility, but now that they control the White House and both houses of Congress -- and can no longer blame Democrats -- they have blown our national budget all to hell. Many party faithful and the folks back home are beginning to rebel. While Bush is fairly certain of re-election, the same cannot be said of many congressmen. They need to reign in spending, especially in an election year, and I don't see them going along with Bush on this one.

The most they are likely to do is tell NASA to realign funds internally, with maybe a small budgetary plus-up as "seed money." Thus we will see then end of the shuttle, the Hubble space telescope and the space station with no viable manned programs to replace them. All the while, the president will make it sound like we're on the verge of some grand new era of exploration, but the depths of our loss won't be evident until after November. Which is the same time the full impact of his first round of tax cuts will start to be felt. If you are concerned about the welfare of the underclass, I can assure you the pain is just beginning.

You may well be right, 8_wannabe. In that case, we will have pulled the rug out from under the scientific exploration of space and will be facing even more suffering at home and abroad. Quite an achievement.

Originally posted by klegg
I have been thinking about a 14" meade, LX200GPS-SMT Schmidt-Cassegrain. They are having a sale were they give you a lens pack for free with your order

"receive a $650 full set of Meade premium-grade Super Plössl eyepieces for only $99."

The price is high, but I think it would be a good thing for the kids.

Do you have an opinion on this scope, or any recomendations?
This scope is too large for a beginner. 14" is massive. If you have a dark sky and a place to permanently mount it, I envy you. If you plan on putting it in your car, check out its dimensions in its carrying case carefully (being sure to include the tripod), as well as its weight.

My five-inch S-C is too large to take on airplanes. When we travel with it, I ship it via UPS. It usually costs me an extra $150 or so, round trip.

By far, the best thing I ever bought for astronomy was my 10x50 binoculars. Beginners should start with a good set of binoculars. For $80-$120 you can get half-way between naked-eye astronomy and a telescope. Many things are better seen through a pair of binoculars: the Pleiades is a large star cluster that is too big to see through a telescope, for example. You can see Jupiter's moons through a good pair of binoculars. I've attached a photo of a 12" LX200. The 14" LX200 is much bigger.

I keep my 12" in a observatory mounted on a wedge and pier. Have no plans to remove it either. My portable scope is a LX90 8" and etx90. But you are right about the binoculars, thats all I usually take on vaccations. People always ask what is the best scope, it is the one you will use the most. A nice big 12+ scope is not very good if it just sits in the closet.

Here is mine with all the cameras, guide scope, etc hooked up. Overall height is 80"

We bought a Celestron 8" Dobsonian last year, and we've done a whole lot more stargazing since then than we ever did with our previous Meade 4.5" DS-114. The Meade took entirely too long to set up, and the tracking system never worked 100% probably mostly due to the cheap plastic gears.

Rather than spend megabucks on a good large auto-tracker, we elected for the Dob, which we can have set up and be gazing within a couple of minutes, making it a lot more practical for us.

I do, however, envy those of you with large scopes and somewhere to put them!

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
This scope is too large for a beginner. 14" is massive. If you have a dark sky and a place to permanently mount it, I envy you. If you plan on putting it in your car, check out its dimensions in its carrying case carefully (being sure to include the tripod), as well as its weight.

My five-inch S-C is too large to take on airplanes. When we travel with it, I ship it via UPS. It usually costs me an extra $150 or so, round trip.

By far, the best thing I ever bought for astronomy was my 10x50 binoculars. Beginners should start with a good set of binoculars. For $80-$120 you can get half-way between naked-eye astronomy and a telescope. Many things are better seen through a pair of binoculars: the Pleiades is a large star cluster that is too big to see through a telescope, for example. You can see Jupiter's moons through a good pair of binoculars. I've attached a photo of a 12" LX200. The 14" LX200 is much bigger.


Thank you for the advice. You and sea ray are right, the 14" weighs almost 200lb!!! A bit much for us, I think. So I am back to the 10" or the 12". My wife thinks 10, due to weight, but the 12 seems to hit the price/performance sweet spot. I am not going to be taking it anyware, I plan on wheeling it from my den to my deck, and eventually mounting it in its own enclosure.

sea rays photos are really nice, makes me itch to get a scope tommorow! Me and my two boys, looking at the stars.........

Originally posted by eccles
We bought a Celestron 8" Dobsonian last year, and we've done a whole lot more stargazing since then than we ever did with our previous Meade 4.5" DS-114. The Meade took entirely too long to set up, and the tracking system never worked 100% probably mostly due to the cheap plastic gears.



Really? what year did you buy the meade? I had heard there were issues with the tracking system, but I thought the new mount fixed the problem...My friends 10" seems to work fine..

By the way, were else but this site can you meet folks with such diverse interests...it must have something to do with why we were all attracted to the 8...

I just found this thread today. I have some much to say to so many comments.

If you're upset about losing the Hubble, realize that since 1989, there has been discussion and planning to replace it.

Look up: www.stsci.edu/resources/

This new telescope; the James Webb Space Telescope is
TWICE the diameter of the HST. It also is in a special orbit beyond Earth, called the second Lagrange point (L2) (check it out).

The JWST would not be affected by the gravitation of the earth's orbit, or short exposure times going around the Earth every ~90 minutes and having the Earth itself get in the way of the photograph.

Every time you double the diameter of a reflecting telescope, you increase the light gathering power by four. Again, JWST would be just awesome!!!

See these articles in Astronomy magazine talking about the new telescope and transition to it.


http://ngst.nasa.gov/FAQ/FAQ.htm

http://www.astronomy.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/001/011emmvi.asp


Orbit:
http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/overview/design/orbit.html

Way cool stuff going on. We need to support the future for life to be even better due to technological development........
.....where do you think these computers came from that we're all chatting on?

The Space Race IMO.

Hi Klegg,
See if you have a local astronomy club and check their schedule for public viewings. You could also check with a local telescope shop who would also know. A hands on look at the scopes is the best way. They do make dolleys to roll the scopes on but getting thru a door way is tough. There is also another yahoo group called observatories that will give you alot of ideas for all sizes of observatories.

Good luck

Originally posted by klegg
Really? what year did you buy the meade? I had heard there were issues with the tracking system, but I thought the new mount fixed the problem...My friends 10" seems to work fine..I bought it for my wife for Christmas 2000. We still have it - the scope itself is reasonably capable, and the Autostar is nice, but the mount sucked - way too much slack in everything. Perhaps one of these days we'll pick up a newer mount and try it again.

Every one that has Bush stop being so dumb. Stop beleving all the left wing propganda, and use the brain you have. Any way not keeping up the Hubble is one of the dumbist think I have every heard of to do. We should keep the hubble running and then get more Telescopes up in space to keep looking and learing.

You mean "looking and leering"? Spoken like a true Texan. ;-)

Originally posted by MWG
We should keep the hubble running.
I think everyone agrees that the Hubble would have been nice to keep aloft - it's still doing amazing science, but... it has already exceeded its life expectancy and the decision that killed the Hubble was really the decision to scrap the Shuttle. After the Columbia disaster, NASA decided not to launch the shuttle without the opportunity to fix the heat shield in space should it ever become damaged during a mission, and the time it would take to develop the protocols to fix the shuttle in space aren't in keeping with decision to totally scrap the Shuttle, which has exploded now twice. I really don't think this president gives a tinker's damn about the costs... passing federal money to the Texas economy in Houston and his brother's State of Florida would have been fine with him, I'm sure. If you want to blame the President, blame him for the decision to scap the Shuttle and move on with this crazy Mars mission... not his decision to kill the Hubble - from everything I read, that was NASA's decision.

By the way, Hubble is not a U.S. facility. It's an international facility. Maybe one of the other countries that partnered with the U.S. might want to complain and put up the money to keep it going... anyone... anyone? I really doubt any of them would want to... the Web facility that is scheduled to be finished in 2012 is going to be awesome. Moving on was not an unreasoble choice.

Sea Ray - would it be even physically possible to get your scope into your RX-8? I took my ETX to the dealership and discovered I can just get the case into the trunk... one of the things that closed the deal ;) Your set up looks sweet, though. I'm very envious. Did you take the shot of the Helix nebula that you posted?

Eccles: I looked into an 8" dob too. That looks like a really good choice; none of the complications and lots of aperture. My five inch only produces "fuzzies" when I look at galaxies. Does the 8" do any better? I can't afford a really high-end telescopes right now, nor do I have the sky for it. :(

I don't think that going to mars is crazy it is just another thing we need to do and I just might take longer than we want because of money. We need the hubble, space station, JWST and the mars mission. I just takes time and money. Maybe Bill Gates could throw Nasa Some change

Hi Megareds,

the 12" scope would maybe fit in the front seat with the seat belt holding it, tripod would go in the trunk. The 8"LX90 would be a much better fit, and that's without a case. But I have a F250 or a volvo wagon to transport the scopes. The Helix was one of the last things I imaged last year, it was with the 12" @ F/6.3 using a Starlightxpress MX916 camera.

I would recomment the 8" LX90 to anyone, best scope I have ever owned for the money. Very accurate, great optics, easy to transport, problem free, and afffordable for computer scopes. Going from 5 to 8" aperature is a huge difference, faint fuzzies start to get some shape and clusters start to show individual stars.

What ETX do you have? I still have my 90 but sold the 125. Now I wished I'd have kept the 5" cause it had wonderful optics and I could still do it carry on for flying. I have thought about the new 14" but my skies aren't great here and I might not gain that much. If anything I will go for a faster scope which will help for imaging.

I can see it now, the 8 going down the road with a big dob sticking out thru the sun roof :)

Here is a pic of my 'stationary' observatory, great place to get away from it all on those clear evenings. Of which have been few and far between these past few months, and when it is clear it has been colder than a well diggers butt.

I think we should not get rid of it. Just push it up into a parking orbit and put it into hibernation. It will come in handy in the distant future. I agree that maybe whe should stop spending money on it but we should not just arbitrarily trash it. we have invested alot of money in this thing.

lets pull it to mars and let it work over there for a while :)

Yeah! Maybe it can locate the Beagle lander!

I had no idea that home base observatories had come so far. Wow!

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
I had no idea that home base observatories had come so far. Wow!

Yea, WOW! Sliding roof. Amazing. Makes my ETX125 look pretty humble. Very, very nice.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Eccles: I looked into an 8" dob too. That looks like a really good choice; none of the complications and lots of aperture. My five inch only produces "fuzzies" when I look at galaxies. Does the 8" do any better? I can't afford a really high-end telescopes right now, nor do I have the sky for it. :( Yeah, we love our "light bucket." My wife has been an amateur stargazer since she was a kid, and she's far more interested in nebulae, clusters, and Messier objects than stars in and of themselves. With the Dob, a Star Atlas, and a Telrad finder, we have found all sorts of objects that we could never see with the Newtonian. I'll probably get a laser collimator one of these days to make that job easier in the dark.

I bought an Orion XT8 8" Dob last year as a christmas present to myself. I love being able to hual it out and have it set up in a minute. I mostly just look at the planets and brighter objects, too much light pollution here in the LA basin for the fainter objects. Saturn last year was amazing I would look at it for hours, and then Mars this past summer. I've been meaning to hual it out to the desert and see if I can locate some to the Messner objects just haven't gotten to it.

Originally posted by QuantumTheory08
I just found this thread today. I have some much to say to so many comments.

If you're upset about losing the Hubble, realize that since 1989, there has been discussion and planning to replace it.

Look up: www.stsci.edu/resources/

This new telescope; the James Webb Space Telescope is
TWICE the diameter of the HST. It also is in a special orbit beyond Earth, called the second Lagrange point (L2) (check it out).

The JWST would not be affected by the gravitation of the earth's orbit, or short exposure times going around the Earth every ~90 minutes and having the Earth itself get in the way of the photograph.

Every time you double the diameter of a reflecting telescope, you increase the light gathering power by four. Again, JWST would be just awesome!!!

See these articles in Astronomy magazine talking about the new telescope and transition to it.


http://ngst.nasa.gov/FAQ/FAQ.htm

http://www.astronomy.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/001/011emmvi.asp


Orbit:
http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/overview/design/orbit.html

Way cool stuff going on. We need to support the future for life to be even better due to technological development........
.....where do you think these computers came from that we're all chatting on?

The Space Race IMO.


thank you quantum .. I have been gone a couple days otherwise I would have cleared this up in a matter of minutes.

first off. Satellites have a set time of life before their batteries and mechanical components wear out. secondly the Hubble is in its last stages of life, as several of its gyros are down. For the love of God people its is freaking hard to build a satellite! you know how much work goes into it? For something to last 14 years you have to say that it had one heck of a run. I loved hubble too but its days are numbered. So now NASA has 2 options.. let it burn in the atmosphere or try to repair it. So you can spend the money repairing a 14 year old satellite or you can build the next satellite of the next generation space telescopes. hmm thats a tough one.. Patch job or something technologically superior.. For those of you saying that there will be too much information lost well, NASA has already launched Chandra the X-ray telescope about 2 years ago! This puppy has been producing some amazing images.

Thank you Quantum for pointing out the JWST. Like you said the JWST is the successor to Hubble as NASA has planned this over 6 years ago. in 2000 I was part of the JWST program at TRW space system when it was still in the proposal phase and am very aware of the complexities and amazing features that the JWST will have. I was fortunate enough to be able to see a half scale model of it in one of the high bays before I went back to school. I can tell you this though.. it is freaking huge. JWST was finally awarded to Northrup-Grumman Space systems (formerly TRW) last summer. :)

Some thoughts about JWST...There are many technical hurdles that need to be over come though. as its in IR satellite it needs to be very cold plus with that size its going to be a pain to get it to deploy correctly. And the orbit will be adding another round of complexity. This is not going to be easy. but it sure will be fun! and it sure should beat the pants off of Hubble.

Please give some credit to GW. He at least is giving NASA back some of the money they have lost over the years(ahem Clinton). 1 billion is such a small chunk and NASA needs it. With the new initiative NASA will most likely not be giving up its core of its business which is observation. We all know that observation is the best way we have of collecting information about the cosmos. As for Manned travel to the moon again. There is a good analogy out there about space travel. ever wonder what the world would be like if, when Columbus told the queen he found the new world and Europe unilaterally said who cares we are happy where we are!

seriously though manned travel to mars is a bit overzealous but we should definitely get back on the moon.

ok I am jet lagged.. good night all

....my brother-in-law worked for Hughes in Redondo Beach. I once got to go see the facility at an Open house several years ago: Wow!

If fact, I just went to JPL in November; what I "got" to see at JPL was nothing compared to Hughes.

Some of the most interesting things about any satellite in Earth orbit are the extreme conditions it is under while in space. There is no atmosphere, so any cooling is only done by conduction - not convection.

Convection: think of sweating and the air around you pulling off the water converted to gas (an endothermic reaction) and then moving away from you. Or just think of an air conditioner or heater: the air carries the cold or hot to you.

Conduction: Think of using a copper wire to heat marsh mellows over a fire and how hot the wire gets as the heat travels through it to the end of your hands, causing you to drop it, due to the heat! Obviously coat hangers work better for this, since they are not as conductive. Sure, different metals and materials have different conductive and insulative qualities. If you stand outside in the cold long enough though, your still gonna get cold.

Okay, so your in space and the only form of "cooling" under direct Sunlight is conduction through the satellite. It can be several 100 degrees hot on one side of the satellite and freezing on the other side - and, the only form of cooling is throught the physical parts of the satellite. Yes specitfic materials are used to help insulate, but the harsh environment of Earth orbit is even tougher in a way because you can go into the Earth's shadow - on a 90 minute cycle. Just think of the harshness of space and what type of computer chips and circuit boards are made to withstand these conditions (sarcasm; oh! my fan on my motherboard went out and now my computer died! - how hot did it get?).

It was amazing to see how they test satellites (mostly the Earth orbiting type). At Hughes in Redondo beach, they have two giant vacuum chambers (at least the one's I was allowed to see). I asked my brother-in-law, "What the chamber for?". He told me that they suck out all the air to create a vacuum like in space (or as close to as possible), then they keep "cycling" liquid nitrogen in to the vacuum chamber to create the cold environment of space (-196 degrees Celcius; space can get a lot colder than that). Sometimes to test a satellite, they put in a huge- like "toaster wire" apparatus (think 10' X 30') that would irradiate heat to the satellite next to it in the vacuum chamber. Any of you telescope owners out there, tell me about experiencing "cooling abaration" of your scope when you first set it up at night and how the heat of the scope itself has to cool before optimum viewing through the scope is available (sometimes 20 to 30 minutes). Now think of Hubbles environment - wow.

The sizes I saw of these chambers was amazing. One was cylindrical in shape; ~12' across by ~25' in length. The other big one was like a huge quansit hut - but bigger. This thing was like ~40 to 50' accross by ~15 to 20' tall by ~40 to 60' deep. The whole outside had this giant steel ribbing (think 3/4" to 1" thick by 1' ribbing of steel, every couple of feet) to support the camber under vacuum - so it doesn't collapse in on itself under vacuum.

The Hubble HAS contributed greatly to space exploration. Man, I can remember as a kid those little "nature" series books they had out on different topics (trees, rocks, the stars, butterflies, etc.) they were the size of a small novel; about 1/2" thick and 4" by 6". Our knowledge from voyeger1 and 2 just blew the socks of anything we've ever seen of our solar system and the outer planets.

Hubble has been great, but there are even better things to come.

Nobody has said this but....did you ever think about probably there are more telescopes like Hubble, orbiting the Earth already? .....There just "looking down" and not "up"....think high resolusion satellites. I wonder how many Hubble's are really up there.

The Next Generation Telescope, or "James Webb Space Telescope", as it was renamed lately, now that thing is gonna open our "eyes". I'd known about it, but this thread really made me anxious with all the hype over Hubble being "decommisioned" early.....I mean, even later than it was suppose to last.

I'd never read up on the "L2" orbit before: very interesting stuff. It's an orbit beyond The Earth and Moon, from the Sun. It stays out of the shadow of the Earth and Moon. Check this site:

http://www.stsci.edu/jwst/overview/design/orbit.html

This telescope also uses some of the newest mirror designs in astronomy; it's like a "honeycomb" mirror (way lighter than say Mount Palomar's 200 inch, or Hubble's single primary mirror). On Mauna Kea in Hawaii (Keck Telescopes), the US has two large 10 meter diameter, "honeycomb" telescopes in operation right now.

See: http://www2.keck.hawaii.edu/

What is interesting is that the honeycomb parts are continually monitored with like a 9-point, "finger" actuation device, that "warps" each separate mirror independently - to keep it perfectly alligned for maximum optics.

Besides that, a new technique is now being used from Earth to help better "see" through the atmosphere, using technology called "adaptive optics". Check it out on the Keck website. And of course, the newest technology is the "interferometre" design, using computers to "simulate" the size of a telescope with the mirror diameter the distance between the outer edges of the two Keck telescopes ~120 meters - HUGH!!!

....enough said by me. I think every bit of forsight to continue to be in space and explore, will continue to have "trickle down" effects for our economy and a better life in the future. Hubble has been just one part of this big picture.

Another reason to let hubble go is the 14 year old technology. Think about how much newer and better stuff is developed over that frame.

Here is an image of Saturn taken this past Sept. Just 10-15 years ago this would have been a hubble quality image, or at least from a large professional mountain top observatory. The detail in this image is pretty good, not like a flyby but good.

This image was done by a friend of mine, in Lex, Ky. in his back yard near a brightly lite chruch parking lot. His equipment is not some state of the art high dollar stuff. He used a 8"telescope
homemade from an irrigation pipe and he ground the mirror himself. The camera is a $100 Toucam Webcam!!!! Software for processing the image is freeware avail on the net.

This kind of tech based equipment like in the hubble should really be replaced with the latest and greatest. I can't wait for the new one, when and IF

Here is another webcam shot, Mars. If we can do this stuff with cheap equip now, imagine what a new version of hubble could do with some serious $$$$$$

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Another reason to let hubble go is the 14 year old technology. Think about how much newer and better stuff is developed over that frame. Hubble has been modernized a couple times in orbit and a whole new suite of equipment has been built that is ready for installation. Alas, it will gather dust here on earth never to be lifted aloft.

I hope their is a "hubble" pointing at me right now...I have my pants down and "f#$% bush" painted on both cheeks...
":)

klegg.. dude...you ain't right man!!

Klegg, maybe you can forward this to your buddy GW

Originally posted by klegg
I hope their is a "hubble" pointing at me right now...I have my pants down and "f#$% bush" painted on both cheeks...
":) This was definitely more than we needed to know. Now I gotta erase the visualization from my brain...

Edited by request of mod....By the way, just PM me if you take offense at my attempts at humor...I know my jokes are not everyones cup of tea, so really no need to go to a mod with it...
makes it look like I refused a request to change it...

You mean "but..tucks" ala F. Gump!

The reason Hubble's not being serviced is not dollars, it's safety. The Shuttle is no longer operationally permitted to fly to orbits where it can't dock to the Space Station if something goes wrong in orbit; this being fallout from the Columbia accident investigation commission reports.

ESA has no more capability to fly people to Hubble's orbit than the US does, given that constraint. Nor for that matter do the Russians; Soyuz can't fly down to 2 degree inclination orbits.

The cost for the servicing flight was apparently not controversial in the Administration and senior NASA discussions held about the new major direction. The issue was flying the mission within the new flight safety requirements or waivering them for the Hubble mission. In the end, there was no way to fly within the requirements, and it was felt that waivering the new safety requirements on one mission right near the beginning of the return to flight operations was just a really dumb idea.

There are hugely non-optimal aspects of everything to do with NASA's manned space presence. But this is one where they're trying to do the Right Thing.
________
LovelyWendie99 (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)

The Hubble should have equal priority with the space station. This is all about a direction change from the Bush administration plain and simple.

Vince

I wonder Bush thinks if they will find the missing Wepons of Mass Destruction on the Moon or Mars?

Maybe they will find life on mars???

LOL, maybe they will find intelligent life in Wash DC. Naaah, that's too absurd.

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Maybe they will find life on mars??? If you call this life:

Originally posted by klegg
I have been thinking about a 14" meade, LX200GPS-SMT Schmidt-Cassegrain. They are having a sale were they give you a lens pack for free with your order

"receive a $650 full set of Meade premium-grade Super Plössl eyepieces for only $99."

The price is high, but I think it would be a good thing for the kids.

Do you have an opinion on this scope, or any recomendations?

Unless you are planning on building an observatory, forget about a 14" scope - it really needs a permanent pier. If you plan on travelling with it, I wouldn't go any higher than 10". I have an 8" LX-90, and that is plenty of aperture for me, without causing portability problems.

Originally posted by compaddict
The Hubble should have equal priority with the space station. This is all about a direction change from the Bush administration plain and simple.

Vince

Most of the scientific community believes the ISS to be an incredible waste of money.

Originally posted by klegg
The same people who planned to attack Iraq BEFORE 911.

The same people who reveled the identy of CIA operatives for telling the truth about iraq NOT trying to buy plutonium

The same people who used ENRON to plan their energy strategy

The same people who awarded chaneys company billions in Iraq contracts w/o putting it up for bid.

The same people who gutted the UN

The same people who have run up a enormous deficit...

The same people who spent millions to go after clinton for, god forbid, lying about a BJ

The same people who are up for re election SOON!!!!

Hey, klegg - how do manage to even see those Hubble pictures with your head so far up your ass? :D

Originally posted by khoney
Most of the scientific community believes the ISS to be an incredible waste of money. It is, because the scientific staff was never sent up. Per my earlier post, it takes 2.5 people just to run the space station, and right now there are 3 people onboard so research capacity is nil. We were supposed to launch an additional living module for 3 more researchers, but Bush quashed it even before the shuttle disaster. He made it a self-fulfilling prophesy: Eliminate the scientific capacity of the ISS, then eliminate the ISS because it has no scientific capacity. The man is an absolute moron.

Originally posted by khoney
Hey, klegg - how do manage to even see those Hubble pictures with your head so far up your ass? :D

First, thanks for the advice on the scope. I did nor know the thing was 200 lb, so now it is a 10"or a 12", with 10" being the front runner.

Now, my head may be up my ass, BUT I can stil see through the bullshit G.W.B. is feeding us..

By the way, Do you all see the newspaper reports that chaney went hunting with scalia?

Does anyone think that is odd, when the supreme court is going to be hearing arguments on the effort to force chaney to cough up his enron papers?

CONFLICT OF INTEREST anyone?

Originally posted by PUR NRG
The Shuttle is no longer permitted to fly to orbits where it can't dock to the Space Station if something goes wrong in orbit; this being fallout from the Columbia accident investigation commission reports.

There are hugely non-optimal aspects of everything to do with NASA's manned space presence. But this is one where they're trying to do the Right Thing. I just read this nugget in your post. I disagree. Trying to explore space with "zero risk" (my words, not yours) is not the "Right Thing." (your words, not mine.) It's just like public expectation of fighting a war with zero casualties. As callous as it sounds, it just can't be. You end up with such a wishy-washy strategy that it just ain't worth the effort anymore, you end up making dumb decisions for the sake of PR that jeopardize the mission. If we're gonna fight a war, take the gloves off, put the Generals in charge, and fight dammit. And the same can be said for space exploration. Yes, I realize this is a civil effort, not military. But to say "only such and such an orbit is allowable" puts such constraints on exploration that we might as well stay home and fight poverty instead. We obviously have lost the will be be adventuresome. Or at least Dubya has.

Sea Ray - those are some incredible pics. Thanks for sharing with us. I am shocked at what can be achieved by a good 12" or even the homemade 8" telescope and a webcam.

I have always wanted to get into astronomy since I was 6 but never had the money (or enough passion/time to build my own). I never even got to look into a decent telescope until a few years ago - my interest thus was always more astrophysics and cosmology. Now I have a baby and a decent job - perhaps in a few years I can buy all the things I wanted as a kid for her if she is interested in them too... Would I be right in thinking that the best way to learn what is worth buying (for a total novice) is to join a star gazing club?

I won't comment on the politics except to say that Hubble has had a good innings, but like all scientific instruments it will (hopefully) be replaced by something much better in 2011. I hope we do get back to the moon and maybe Mars, but it is easy to make grandiose statements and long term plans when some other presidents will be paying for them (or scrapping them) decades from now.

How much influence do you think the President had on the accident investigation comission reports?

This is not a "zero risk" decision, but they are trying to come up with reasonable safety measures.
________
SUZUKI ALTO LAPIN SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.suzuki-tech.com/wiki/Suzuki_Alto_Lapin)

Hi Pelucidor,

I'm sure Houston has several astronomy clubs/groups. See if you can get their schedules and join them for a night or two. That way you can check out all types of scopes and find one that best suites you. If you talk to the retail telescope shops they will be able to get you in touch with them.

And like you, I hate to get politics mixed with my hobbies, takes the fun out of them.

Originally posted by eccles
Before they decommission it, they should turn it around to search for signs of intelligent life in the White House.


Even the hubble cant find that

LMFAO

If they took the same amount of money over the same amount of time as it would take to build for and prepare and actually travel to the Moon or Mars, we could be building powerful hydrogen fueled cars and the infrastructure to go with it. We should look to solve our own problems here on earth without ruining other planets as well. BTW, Astromomy is one of my hobbies as well.

Originally posted by klegg
First, thanks for the advice on the scope. I did nor know the thing was 200 lb, so now it is a 10"or a 12", with 10" being the front runner.



My advice to you before you purchase would be to attend a few star parties. See if you can find an 8" and a 10" and compare them directly, i.e. train them on the same DSO or planet, and try to use the same eyepiece on each. I'm willing to bet you won't be able to tell the difference, but the difference in portability is huge. I have an 8" LX-90, and a coworker has a 10" LX-200. We've attended star parties together, and have used each others' scope. He told me if the LX-90 had been on the market when he was purchasing, he would have gone for it instead of the 10". The 10" is quite a bit heavier and requires a much larger scope case, if you plan to transport it. For me, the 8" is at the upper limit of portability. I think you and your kids will get plenty of enjoyment out of an 8". With proper collimation, the images are fantastic.

You also need to consider where you will be observing. Truly dark skies are needed to maximize the benefits of aperture. Light pollution will make DSOs your least-observed objects. I've been to Fort Davis, Texas three times now to help out with the star parties at the McDonald Observatory. I've had many compliments on the 8" views by the public, even when they've viewed the same object thru a larger scope. My experience has been that many people are afraid to collimate their SCTs, and they suffer dearly for it - the difference in image quality can be dramatic. That's one thing you need to be aware of when looking through someone else's SCT - it may be out of collimation.

If you want, I can take a picture of myself standing next to the LX-90 and the scope case I purchased for it and post it, just to give you an idea of size. Then realize that the 10" is much larger!

Hey Khoney, are you a member of the LX90 yahoo group? Sounds like you are really into also. I also think the LX90 is the best scope for the money. I love the 12" but if I could only have one, and it needed to be portable, it would be the 8". I have even done some decent imaging with it, guiding with an STV. I would love toget out to the Texas Star party some day, great skies out there.

Dean

Yea, I was pretty active on that forum for a couple years, but I haven't had a chance to observe since last March - designing and building a custom home leaves not much free time. We're scheduled for move-in in about 6 weeks, so I'm hoping to get back to it this summer.

I haven't been to the TSP (a week in Ft. Davis is just a bit much for me), but I have stayed at the Prude Ranch, where it is held. The last few years we've gone during spring break for a long weekend. The night sky is amazing.

Originally posted by compaddict
http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/16/hubble.telescope.ap/index.html

I'm in shock. The Hubble is one of my favorite things ever and now it's going to be left to die.
Vince

Good news Vince... there's apparently an appeal pending:

Hubble may get reprieve (http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/nation/2377488)

Yeah, I'm on the side for keeping it. Sure, it may be antiquated by advancements in theoretical new technology, but that doesn't mean we should scuttle it.

I have an 11 year old MX-6 and my new RX-8 is oh so much better than it. Does that mean I should take my MX-6 to the junk yard? Of course not. I'm still getting much service from it and it is integral in my transportational planning. Sure, it's costing me some additional time, money and effort. And, yes, sometimes it will let me down unexpectedly. (Due to a poor pro-active or predictive maintenance plan of mine.) But, I have it and it works close to original specs and gets me to work and back, 76 miles, 5 days a week. That leaves the RX-8 is as-new condition.

As far as danger to human life in going up there to maintain the Hubble, that's the name of the game. Don't ever expect space exploration to be free from loss of human life. It will never be. Just ask any astronaut. Then ask any of them if they would like to take a shuttle up there to work on the Hubble.

I doubt if expenses would drop or curtail ongoing projects for implementing the better stuff to come. Any talk of that nature is simply rhetorical. I think in this case, we can have our cake and eat it too.

I'm not knowlegeable in this stuff, but I have been around long enough to know when I'm smelling a stinker.