Hi, I just picked up my rx8 2 days ago and I'm a newbie to driving manual. So in fear of stalling I always engage the clutch around 3-4000 rpm and quite a few times I reved it too much like 6000 and slowly let the clutch out on a hill. After this I can smell a burning smell and I'm thinking this is from the clutch. Is this anything I should worry about? Does it usually mean I just have to change my clutch fluid more often before I get used to driving manual? And is there different or higher grade clutch fluids that I can use to withstand higher temp? Thanks!

try here (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/clutch.htm)

Clutch fluids?

Also read my thread here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18424). Started out as suspected flooding, ended up with my badly burned and replaced. On occasion I smelt a burning smell like yours, though never aware of any abuse. I don't drive hard; I don't drop the clutch and rarely rev above 5K. My dealer gave me no grief, in fact didn't even tell me they had replaced the clutch till after I got the car home.

I am interested in anyone else commenting on this as well.

As noted in other threads I'm not revving THAT high but am revving to 2500 or so also for fear of stalling.

I've noted the exact same "burning" smell that comes in through the windows. I had convinced myself that it was just an Oil smell (being that the Rotary burns some oil and I am not used to what burnt oil smells like....I surmised it must be this).

But the thought has crossed my mind that my clutch is not liking the high revs or the quick engagements I sometimes accidentally give it.

Sounds like more practice is in order. Oil and clutch are different smells. The clutch smells much worse. 6k on a start is good for a 1/4 mile run but abusive for normal driving. Try bringing the revs to about 1500 and "slowly" release the clutch. At the point where the clutch begins to engage the rpm will drop. Apply more throttle and release the clutch smoothy. Smooth is the name of the game here. Master it and your clutch will last a long time. Starts at high revs will greatly reduce the life of your clutch. Especially if your slipping it enough to smell it.

Good Luck!

Can you define "slipping it enough to smell it"?

Does that mean releasing too quick or holding it too long?

holding it like halfway in too long.

Slipping is releasing too slowly.

But shouldn't you pause momentarily going into first (right at friction point) to let the synchros work?

I never pause in other gears but going into 1st from stop I am trying to hold it for a second and then it seems to be a lot smoother when I continue the release.

Originally posted by Rotary Titus
So in fear of stalling I always engage the clutch around 3-4000 rpm and quite a few times I reved it too much like 6000 and slowly let the clutch out on a hill. After this I can smell a burning smell and I'm thinking this is from the clutch. Is this anything I should worry about? Does it usually mean I just have to change my clutch fluid more often before I get used to driving manual? And is there different or higher grade clutch fluids that I can use to withstand higher temp? Thanks!

Yes, there is something you should worry about - you are roasting that poor clutch! It has nothing to do with the clutch fluid (yes, clutch fluid for Rotary Nut, the clutch is hydraulically actuated), but with the friction surface on the clutch overheating. That's what the burning smell is from - and if you continue to overheat the friction surface through massive slip, soon the surface will glaze and the clutch will start to slip excessively in normal engagements or will begin to slip when you're not stepping on the clutch pedal. When that happens, the clutch has to be replaced.

That shouldn't be necessary - without abuse, a clutch should last between 100,000 and 200,000 miles. Yours will maybe last 10,000 miles if you keep that up.

The good thing is that as you learn and become more familiar with your manual trans, you should be able to engage the clutch at around 2000 rpm and only take less than 2 seconds to release the clutch as you move from a stop. (Actually, at 6000 rpm that's pretty much a drag racing start - you could just pop the clutch fast at the same instant as you floor the throttle, and there'll be very little clutch wear. You'll wear the tires, though, because they'll be spinning! ;) )

Regards,
Gordon

The transmission in already in gear. The syncros have already done their job. The only thing to consider is minimizing the amount slip time while the clutch engages. Smoothness comes with practice.

We're talking about starts right?

It's the higher RPM's while partially holding in the clutch too long that causes it. If you are accelleration at the same rate you release the clutch you should be fine. Just don't rev too high while the clutch is partially in. It would be better to rev high and just quick release the clutch or use less gas if you let your clutch out slowly. The key is smoothness between the two points you are connecting, (the flywheel & the transmission)

Originally posted by TheDosDog
The transmission in already in gear. The syncros have already done their job. The only thing to consider is minimizing the amount slip time while the clutch engages. Smoothness comes with practice.

We're talking about starts right?

Yeah, starts.

Then learn to smoothly start with the RPM below 2000 rpm and minimize slip. High RPM + friction = heat.

ok. It just seems like pausing the clutch when engaging 1st is one way I've done it but I guess that's causing slip (even going into 1st).

back to the drawing board!

Don't worry about engaging the 1st gear, there's nothing you can break or slip or wear when you engage 1st.(unless you rev it at 4 K BEFORE engaging 1st) find a flat,deserted parking lot and practice revving it just enough not to stall the car while you let the clutch go. that friction point is your cue. give gaz and let go of the clutch at the same time... bingo !

Originally posted by TheDosDog
Then learn to smoothly start with the RPM below 2000 rpm and minimize slip. High RPM + friction = heat. This is an awesome discussion and I appreciate everyone's contribution. Does everyone agree with DosDog's comment above?

well just came home from another day of practice... I think I finally got the 1500rpm start, but that's another story on a hill....
I find that whenever I start rolling backwards I panic and give it a lot of gas...
practice practice practice I guess...
thanks for all the info guys!
so how long is a clutch supposed to last anyway with regurlar use (it seems even with regular use you still end up rubbing 2 differently rotatiing plates together so you'd still wear it down?)

Originally posted by Rotary Titus
well just came home from another day of practice... I think I finally got the 1500rpm start, but that's another story on a hill....
I find that whenever I start rolling backwards I panic and give it a lot of gas...
practice practice practice I guess...
thanks for all the info guys!
so how long is a clutch supposed to last anyway with regurlar use (it seems even with regular use you still end up rubbing 2 differently rotatiing plates together so you'd still wear it down?)

As far as the hill goes... just like most things in life when a "situation" occurs... don't panic. Stay calm and remember your stuff. The car starts to roll backwards... hit the brake and try starting again. This too will require practice and time... just keep with it!

As far as clutch life goes... essentially some degree of wear will occur everytime you disengage and re-engage the clutch. So regularly driving in stop and go traffic will take a toll on your clutch. Really figuring out the life of your clutch will depend on driving style and conditions...

Use the e-brake to prevent rolling backwards while starting on an incline. That's how I was thaught to do it.

Another MT newbie and you guys have already helped me to a great extent on another thread. I'm new to the terminology and the concepts and by the way, the howstuffworks thing helped a lot in allowing me to conceptualize what's going on when I drive the MT.

I do have a question after reading the above. It involves smoothing out the ride at low-cruise-speeds (in close traffic). I'm finding that being in second gear between about 2 mph and 12 -15 mpg is a step in the right direction. But as I drop to rpms that would make the car bog or lurch with my foot off the clutch pedal, what I've been doing to smooth out the ride is come off the clutch pedal, (I assume) only partially engaging the clutch and use the gas pedal to up the rpms on the engine. It smooths out the ride and eliminates the lurching but am I slipping or otherwise wearing away at the surface of the clutch plate?

Typically, this occurs as follows, I'm rolling along at 4 mph, clutch-pedal down (clutch disengaged). I need to speed up, so I lift my left foot while applying gas (in second gear). I don't let out all the way because I'm only feet away from needing to slow down again. As I write this, the specifics elude me. I'm basically achieving a smooth ride by accelerating with the clutch pedal only partially out (while giving the engine gas) in second.

If you can understand what I'm trying to say above, you're sharper than I am but if you can, what do you thinK? Am I screwing up anything by doing that? If so, what's the best way to accomplish the smooth (non-lurching) ride at low rpm/low speed? I read the part in another thread about letting it roll gas-pedal-free in first and that's fine for up to 4 or 5 mph but it's the 5 to 20 mph in close quarters where giving the engine a reasonable amount of gas with the clutch fully engaged is not an option, that I'm still struggling with.

As a clutch-newbie, I thank you.....

My thoughts on this, but I'm no expert. 2-4 mph is too slow to be in 2nd. If you're accelerating, shift to 2nd around 10-11 mph. Don't forget this car redlines at 9000 rpm, so running it up to 4000 or so is no big deal.

As far as applying gas (your paragraph that starts "Typically, this occurs...") I think what you're doing is legitimate, just keep revs down. Use the technique sparingly, keep revs down below 3500 rpm or so you ought be ok. If you ever smell an acrid burning smell (not oil, which smells "sweeter") that's bad.

Originally posted by Rotary Titus
that's another story on a hill....
I find that whenever I start rolling backwards I panic and give it a lot of gas...
practice practice practice I guess...
thanks for all the info guys!
so how long is a clutch supposed to last anyway with regurlar use (it seems even with regular use you still end up rubbing 2 differently rotatiing plates together so you'd still wear it down?)

So don't roll backwards - that's what the hand brake is for! What you do when you're sitting on a hill, foot on the foot brake - pull the handbrake up, and hold in the release button (keep holding the handbrake up). You can let off the foot brake, and your car won't roll backwards. Now when you want to move away, use slightly more revs than you would on level ground, as the clutch is released give it a bit more gas than you would on level ground, but still release it fairly quickly (under 2 seconds). As you start to release the clutch, you'll feel the car start to pull against the handbrake (which you're holding up with the button pressed in). Just lower the handbrake, and the car will pull away without rolling back an inch.

I wrote about clutch life above - with reasonable driving (you can drive hard all you want, just don't slip the clutch!), a clutch will last 100,000 to 200,000 miles.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by FirstSpin
But as I drop to rpms that would make the car bog or lurch with my foot off the clutch pedal, what I've been doing to smooth out the ride is come off the clutch pedal, (I assume) only partially engaging the clutch and use the gas pedal to up the rpms on the engine. It smooths out the ride and eliminates the lurching but am I slipping or otherwise wearing away at the surface of the clutch plate?

Am I screwing up anything by doing that? If so, what's the best way to accomplish the smooth (non-lurching) ride at low rpm/low speed? I read the part in another thread about letting it roll gas-pedal-free in first and that's fine for up to 4 or 5 mph but it's the 5 to 20 mph in close quarters where giving the engine a reasonable amount of gas with the clutch fully engaged is not an option, that I'm still struggling with.

As a clutch-newbie, I thank you.....

Yes, you're definitely slipping the clutch doing that, and you're definitely going to have to prematurely replace the clutch if you continue. Rule of thumb - slip the clutch as little as possible to move from a stop, and NEVER EVER deliberately slip the clutch at any other time. NEVER. That's the key to having a clutch last 1 or 2 hundred thousand miles.

For your 2-10 mph traffic crawling - use first gear. So what if you have to vary between 2K rpm and 4K rpm? That's nothing on the engine, and your clutch will thank you.

Regards,
Gordon

first of all it maybe a combination of two things u being a newbie and these cars have weak clutches! Mazda was having trouble with service work on the clutches they weren't being bolted down! and the friction plate and pressure plates are weak as hell. i have 4500 miles on my 8 and i've already had a new clutch and tranny i just got it back to day! and i know how to drive a standard!

same here, at 10,000 miles I got new clutch and pressure plate.

When I learned to drive a clutch it was on a VW beetle. When on a hill you can put on the emergency brake. As you release the clutch you release the brake. It keeps you from rolling backward. This will help on those steep hills.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Then learn to smoothly start with the RPM below 2000 rpm and minimize slip. High RPM + friction = heat.

This is an awesome discussion and I appreciate everyone's contribution. Does everyone agree with DosDog's comment above?

Maybe to learn, but not once you've got the hang of it. Most experienced stick drivers will start at idle and give it gas and engage the clutch at the same time - without stalling too. It's not that hard. You don't need to rev the engine unless you have a reason to get off to a fast start. I admit that the joy of putting the 8 through it's paces might be reason enough, though.

The discussion on hill starting brings back fond memories years ago. I used to have a '65 Mustang. We never could get the handbrake adjusted so that it would hold securely, and further (warning, sexist remark coming), since my wife drove it when I wasn't looking, the clutch was generally in a glazed over condition. We made frequent trips across the bay into Frisco and I gotta tell you, my hill starts were a thing of beauty. It usually involved turning the wheels and backing down to t-bone the curb, revving the engine and engaging the clutch, all the while frantically waving the cars behind me to back down to give me room. For some reason, they didn't like that. You could smell the clutch for miles. Maybe you have to have driven Frisco to understand.

Originally posted by rot8n
first of all it maybe a combination of two things u being a newbie and these cars have weak clutches! Mazda was having trouble with service work on the clutches they weren't being bolted down! and the friction plate and pressure plates are weak as hell. i have 4500 miles on my 8 and i've already had a new clutch and tranny i just got it back to day! and i know how to drive a standard!

so how can you tell if you need a replacement clutch? and so was it under warranty? what did you tell the service guys?
I remember when I picked mine up, a certain someone (in case NA Mazda reads this and craps at that person) at my dealership told me since I'm a newbie I'll probably wear out the clutch, but just bring it in and complain of weird noises and they'll just replace it under extended warrenty. Is this legit?
and yea I tried my friend's WRX today and his clutch's travel was like 2/3rds of the rx8 and probably 35% harder (harder to push clutch = stronger clutch?)
and ohyea thanks for the handbrake tip! tried it out today and got some getting used to moving my hands and legs all over the place with the shift lever, hand brake, clutch, brake, gas LOL (manual is SO much more involoving :) )

Originally posted by Rotary Titus
so how can you tell if you need a replacement clutch?

Man, you KNOW. You pop the clutch and the car doesn't go anywhere. Sometimes it smells like some prankster left a skunk in the engine compartment (that would be your clutch plate vaporizing behind you).

Originally posted by Rotary Titus
so how can you tell if you need a replacement clutch? and so was it under warranty? what did you tell the service guys? I didn't tell 'em nuttin. they changed it out under warranty without even asking or telling me. Read my whole story here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18424); it was very odd but worked out OK.

bernieunger is right. Once you have mastered the clutch and have it down, the clutch engages near idle. I suggested bringing up the RPM slightly to get a visual queue for when the clutch begins to engage.