I emailed them about their exhaust, intake and ECU chip and this was their response:

"We hope to have the exhaust available in just a few weeks, the intake will follow later this spring/summer. We are nearing completion on the ECU test bench and should be set-up to start reflashing units in the very near future. We will be supplying more specific information regarding availability, pricing, etc... as things progress. Check checking the site, I will post new info as soon as it becomes available."

I've been waiting for the release of the exhaust too. I had my Girlfriend hide my Mazda AMEX card from me so I wouldn't spend the money over the holidays. The card is now back in my wallet and itching to be used. So a few more weeks is like a lifetime for me.

I hear ya!!, where in miami are you cause my gir is in miami as well and im in miramar?

I called them , they are down the street from my house and I told them I want to come buy parts they said they are in NO rush and what to make sure the parts are perfect before they are relased

I've decided to not give them my business due to the shady way they acted at first. Shooting down others products using your "influence" and then backtracking (yet still offering cristisim on others products) while claiming theirs will be better is just the same reason I never bought and never will buy a PS2.

They might have a lot of experience, but I dont deal with that kind of people.

Originally posted by Genom
I've decided to not give them my business due to the shady way they acted at first. Shooting down others products using your "influence" and then backtracking (yet still offering cristisim on others products) while claiming theirs will be better is just the same reason I never bought and never will buy a PS2.

They might have a lot of experience, but I dont deal with that kind of people.


Everyone has the right/obligation to be proud of their own products, I agree with your views on 'dissin others' products but don't shut yourself out of the opportunity to have the best products....your car will never know who manufactured it......
my god it's late.

Genom, I don't remember them shooting down other products. I just remember them saying they haven't been able to reproduce the gains some have claimed. By the same token, they told us what to expect from thier products.

They never specifically said any one product. Instead, when they DIDNT have any products anywhere near ready, stated publicly on their page that they had already done testing and that intakes wouldnt add much to anything at all, and neither would exhausts, etc. I remember them claiming under 5HP for any kind of mod at all.

Next when their exhaust is prototyping, it's suddenly possible to make a few HP. And when they start working on a intake, suddenly the Hp IS there, but other peoples gear is noisy.

That kinda shady crap says to me that they dont want my money. I do not for one minute think they will be the only ones to produce any kind of quality parts, so I will stick with others that earn my money, and dont try to scare it out of me.

So the truth is shady?

No. It's shady to lambast others efforts and then pretend that you didnt, while STILL putting others efforts down.

If they did so much testing as to determine that you CAN make some HP from the intake (now), how come when they didnt have an intake worked on the intake was a waste?(when R-E came out with theirs)

It's called being a bully when I was in grade school, and I will not do business with them. If you want to, fine. *I* will not.

I agree with you, and if you poke around you'll see I said something similar in another thread. That said...Racing Beat IS a pretty reputable company, and they DO make quality products. I didn't care for this particular advertising tactic either though, intentional or not.

jds

Well, not sure if I agree or disagree with you. One thing to remember though. Engineering accuracy is 5%. If a dyno shows 2-5 HP from an intake, I'd have to say it's not there. Same goes with exhaust.

I suspect their first comments were made to get the "truth" out there. It was after they stated that when others started to claim 20+HP, I think. They make their money selling parts, so if they see a few HP on the dyno, even knowing it may be measurement error, wouldn't you claim it to sell parts if others are?

Some of the customers who are going to buy this stuff will believe anything. I see some adding up the HP from each mod. - which is just silly.

I know what ya mean, and I agree they are a reputable company. I have heard good things about their products. It's just that they flat out stated at first that certain products wouldnt give any gains, then did an about face item by item as they get ready to release THEIRS. If they had said something like "We dont think it will work" it would be OK. They flat out said "It will not work". Thats a huge difference in my book.

Now they say "It will work, but ours will be better" when they dont have anything but sway bars out. So first they either flat out lied, or exagerated the truth a great deal, now they brag about something they dont have ready yet.

Dunno, maybe the wording rubbed me the wrong way, but like I said, I wont buy their stuff. I am pretty sure they wont the only ones with any product out for the car, so it's not like I will miss anything.

Originally posted by Genom
They never specifically said any one product. Instead, when they DIDNT have any products anywhere near ready, stated publicly on their page that they had already done testing and that intakes wouldnt add much to anything at all, and neither would exhausts, etc. I remember them claiming under 5HP for any kind of mod at all.

Next when their exhaust is prototyping, it's suddenly possible to make a few HP. And when they start working on a intake, suddenly the Hp IS there, but other peoples gear is noisy.
As I recall, I predicted this might happen... ;)

Well the HP has to be there somewhere because didn't the RX-Evolv put out 280 hp?

Originally posted by Omicron
As I recall, I predicted this might happen... ;)

Very true. I was hoping they woudlnt pull a stunt like that, but there it is.

BTW Omicron, your PM box was full a couple days ago. Got any space?

It should now. It was only full for a couple of hours till I got it emptied out.

Choosing to wait for their products or not , their products
will be as stated because of testing and experience. They
are the most experienced mazda aftermarket company in
the US. Racing Beat has been playing/racing mazda's since the early 70's who else has been doing that? Winning championships and beating the factory teams not to mention Bonneville
records. Who helped mazda develop and provide parts for the
Mazdaspeed Protege? I am not saying that there are not
other companies capable of developing and selling great parts,
just that Racing Beat has consistently provided excellent
products some of which are better and less expensive than
official mazda race parts.:) :)

My feelings on the issue mirror Omicron and Genom. I read their initial statement to mean..."Well you can get SOME gains from standard mods, but it really it is so small it's hardly worth buying." And now they have just about done an about face...

One point NO ONE has brought up, which occured to me is this. Racing Beat is supposed to have such a close relationship with Mazda and they supposedly got a pre-production and a production engine. So that means over EVERYONE else they had a lead in development time of how many months??? We have some seriously reputable brands available on both sides of the ocean already, but Racing Beat with their "connection" and ability to start development prior to release of the RX-8, still hasn't release any engine mods??! Come on...

Like Genom, I don't really care what their quality etc. is like. The only way companies listen is when you complain with your wallet. So I won't be buying from Racing Beat if I can help it...

As in the movie : FEW GOOD MEN .

Some people just cant handle the truth .

michael

I don't quite agree with the negativity towards RB here. I bought one of their intakes for my Miata and it was a great product; installed easily and worked as advertised. I actually met and talked with one of the owners at RB when I went down there and nothing I saw there was disreputable or "shady" in any way.

When they say the standard mods produce "few hp" and then claim theirs is producing a "few hp," to me that is consistency. My guess is the reason why they are taking so long is they are trying to get something worthwhile in performance out of these mods to justify charging customers for it. As always when you add several mods together correctly you can get some hp gain but will it be worth the cost? Is 12 hp gain worth $2,000 and will customers buy all that for such little gain?

I think they were early on trying to help people's expectations to be realistic about the gains the standard mods would bring. I don't see them claiming 20 hp from an intake, or exhaust, etc. Probably won't even get that with all of the mods combined (ECU mod excepted). If Canzoomer's Stage 1 mod only offered 5 hp I wouldn't have ordered it for $500, and absolutely wouldn't pay $750 for it. RB has to ask themselves that question if that's what they charge for an exhaust system....the answer is probably no, people won't pay hundreds of dollars for 5 hp gain. They will if it "sounds great" so they made a big point of talking about sound quality.

I think some of you are being unnecessarily harsh and unfair to RB; their products (in my experience) are high quality and deliver as advertised. I plan on giving their exhaust system a serious look and listen.

No one has denied that they make good products (I will say, I'm not convinced that they always put performance first and foremost ....see the emphasis on quietness in their exhaust and intake products, not that that's necessarily bad).
It is that perception that they were badmouthing the competiton to give themselves time to develop their own similar products. Now, they may not have intended it to look that way...but it did, at least to a number of people. I noticed it, and I have been very, very far from being anti-RB. I won't go so far as to say I wouldn't buy from them either, however I did feel their comments to be a bit irritating.

jds

RB is a business and they develop products to make money. They could have put together an exhaust months ago and claimed a 15+hp performance gain. They could have beat other manufactures to the market and made a ton of cash. But they didn't because they are making sure everything is perfect before the release. Most other tuners have based their numbers off chassis dynos. RB used an engine dyno for their numbers. It ever occur to you guys that the chassis dynos could be off due to the RX-8's TCS/DCS. Remember a while back when "Dont_Be_A_Rikki" reported a 10+hp gain with the Tornado. We can sit here and argue RB business practices all day long but who ever has the best product is the one that is going to get my business.

Originally posted by Superfan
RB is a business and they develop products to make money. They could have put together an exhaust months ago and claimed a 15+hp performance gain. They could have beat other manufactures to the market and made a ton of cash. But they didn't because they are making sure everything is perfect before the release. Most other tuners have based their numbers off chassis dynos. RB used an engine dyno for their numbers. It ever occur to you guys that the chassis dynos could be off due to the RX-8's TCS/DCS. Remember a while back when "Dont_Be_A_Rikki" reported a 10+hp gain with the Tornado. We can sit here and argue RB business practices all day long but who ever has the best product is the one that is going to get my business.

I can understand RB wanting to "inform" the community of their early finds, but... your first sentence says it all..."RB is a business and they develop products to make money." Given that... casting whatever kind of light (bad or even good) on competing prodcuts that are already available when your team is still developing them just looks plain old bad. They shouldn't have made any comments other than "we are working on X, Y, and Z) until prodcuts were ready to release or were released.

And again... if RB is in so good with Mazda and had their pre-production and production engines so early, what's the hold up? Your claim to wokring on perfection is beyond reasonable. I'm not even saying they should have beaten everyone else to the market... I'm saying that almost a year after the car was released is just a bit long for someone whom had access to an engine at least months before. If they released the cat-back 2 or 3 months after Borla first released theirs I'd say nothing about this.

As was said... I have little to no doubts about the fit and finish, quality of their prodcuts. With their experience and relationship to Mazda, they'll be good. BUT...

1. They are unreasonably late
- Hello!! people have developed ECU mods in this time and they can't even put out a freakin' muffler?!

2. Those PR comments... it was just unethical business. Even if it wasn't intentional, that doesn't excuse them from responsibility for their comments. Leaders of nations get called out on them all the time...what excuses RB?

Perhaps what they need is someone to handle their PR??

As far as the dyno goes... we'd like to think that everyone knows about "limp mode" and has taken steps to circumvent this during their testing.

Originally posted by bureau13
...It is that perception that they were badmouthing the competiton to give themselves time to develop their own similar products. Now, they may not have intended it to look that way...but it did, at least to a number of people. I noticed it, and I have been very, very far from being anti-RB. I won't go so far as to say I wouldn't buy from them either, however I did feel their comments to be a bit irritating.
jds Well put. My sentiments exactly.

Originally posted by Japan8
II'm saying that almost a year after the car was released is just a bit long for someone whom had access to an engine at least months before. If they released the cat-back 2 or 3 months after Borla first released theirs I'd say nothing about this.

2. Those PR comments... it was just unethical business. Even if it wasn't intentional, that doesn't excuse them from responsibility for their comments. Leaders of nations get called out on them all the time...what excuses RB?

Perhaps what they need is someone to handle their PR??

As far as the dyno goes... we'd like to think that everyone knows about "limp mode" and has taken steps to circumvent this during their testing.

I suppose if it were almost a year, you'd be right. First deliveries in the US were in July. It's January now. That's 6 months after the car was release. "Almost" a year? Is your calendar year shorter than anyone else's? ;)

2. Unethical business - or brutal honesty? Let's see, RB say most vendors are overstating the HP gains they might achieve, and that the real HP gains are smaller, maybe 2 or 3 hp. Then they release a competitive product, that makes maybe - 2 or 3 hp. How exactly is that unethical? Maybe, they're actually looking out for the RX-8 community - it's possible to be in business and not want the aftermarket community in it's entirety to get a reputation as blowhard liars (by making misleading or overstated claims). Maybe an honest vendor is the reality check the other vendors need to reign in their claims? We'll know when someone independent puts the competing parts on a car, back to back, and runs a few dyno runs each. We won't know until then. Either RB will be eating crow, or the other vendors will be making excuses. I can wait to find out!

Regards,
Gordon

I suppose if it were almost a year, you'd be right. First deliveries in the US were in July. It's January now. That's 6 months after the car was release. "Almost" a year? Is your calendar year shorter than anyone else's? ;)

Um no... it's been out here almost a year... maybe more. I didn't exactly memorize the date they shipped. If they are in that well with Mazda corporate then the possiblity of getting the pre-prod and prod engines would likely be by that schedule, not the US release date. Don't be a smartass.

[QUOTE]

2. Unethical business - or brutal honesty? Let's see, RB say most vendors are overstating the HP gains they might achieve, and that the real HP gains are smaller, maybe 2 or 3 hp. Then they release a competitive product, that makes maybe - 2 or 3 hp. How exactly is that unethical? Maybe, they're actually looking out for the RX-8 community - it's possible to be in business and not want the aftermarket community in it's entirety to get a reputation as blowhard liars (by making misleading or overstated claims). Maybe an honest vendor is the reality check the other vendors need to reign in their claims? We'll know when someone independent puts the competing parts on a car, back to back, and runs a few dyno runs each. We won't know until then. Either RB will be eating crow, or the other vendors will be making excuses. I can wait to find out!


Gordon... it's not RB's job to give public service announcements. The fact that they are competing for your dollars against these other prodcuts makes it unethical. Or are you in the Microsoft business style camp? Do you even understand what's wrong here? It's so simple... THEY ARE NOT IMPARTIAL!!!! You say the same thing about other companies dynos and hp claims... you want an independent third party to test it and see what they get. The same thing here... RB is NOT in the position to make said statement... correct information or not. They aren't impartial, and so it looks bad for them to make such comments.

Making these claims officially on their website was a big no no. If they were just "looking out for the RX-8 community" as you claim, then they could have simply "leaked" that info to someone they know whom is close to the RX-8 community. This would be more ethical and look less self-serving.

Depending on how much RB goes for hp vs noise with their prodcut... we'll see what happens. They may make the same, less or more (I doubt less). Either way I bet it will be a well-made product... had better be for how long they're taking. I mean really... even if you go by the US delivery time for when they got their motors... they got a PRE-PRODCUTION one... meaning before release. And in that time people have made ECU mods... that seems like a bit more work than muffler to me. How about you?

Easy solution to the rb fix buy Australian aftermarket parts eg HYMEES exhaust .
michael

Originally posted by Japan8
Um no... it's been out here almost a year... maybe more. I didn't exactly memorize the date they shipped. If they are in that well with Mazda corporate then the possiblity of getting the pre-prod and prod engines would likely be by that schedule, not the US release date. Don't be a smartass.

I'm not being a smartass, thank you. Maybe in Japan it's almost a year (you don't have to memorize the date shipped to recall that first deliveries there were in late April), but Racing Beat is a US company. First deliveries in the US were July. Half a year.


Gordon... it's not RB's job to give public service announcements. The fact that they are competing for your dollars against these other prodcuts makes it unethical.

Nothing unethical about it - head to head comparisons in advertising are normal in the US, comparing feature for feature, or mocking the claims of the competition. However - RB isn't even advertising it - they have the statements posted on their own web site. You have to go looking for it at RB to find it. I see nothing unethical about it, especially since RB isn't naming names. Obviously you have to consider that RB is competing with some of those vendors and factor that into your individual evaluation of the merit of RB's claims. Impartiality isn't a factor - otherwise, nobody would be allowed to claim "my product is the best" or "better than theirs", or "my product is built better than theirs using higher quality materials and workmanship". Any such advertising claim is partial! IF RB lied, then that would be unethical - how exactly is telling the truch unethical? Sure, the competition doesn't like it and finds it embarrassing - that isn't RB's problem, nor can I find fault with them for that.

And in that time people have made ECU mods... that seems like a bit more work than muffler to me. How about you? Who has a plug-in, pre-mapped ECU mod out yet, besides Canzoomer? (Who just started shipping last week anyway) As far as I'm aware, nobody else (except maybe Ric Shaw) is shipping anything. I agree it's a whole lot of work and with the RX-8's extensively integrated system it's extremely complicated. This week we have Canzoomer, and maybe Ric Shaw out of Australia (again, just announced), but I don't think RB is really way behind the others in terms of ECU mod offerings yet.

I guess I'm just very sceptical myself of the vague claims made by many vendors, and hate the marketing hype (for example, K&N's advertising is a masterpiece of misleading smoke and mirrors). I'm more appreciative of a company who is willing to say "you know, there really isn't as much HP in Renesis intakes and exhausts as some vendors would like you to believe", even though it will actually hurt sales of their products (when released) along with everyone else's, and I'm appreciative that the company doesn't then say "theirs only make 2 hp, but ours make 10 hp!", instead they say "ours make the same 2 hp as everyone else's". On the contrary, if we're discussing ethics then I'd suggest RB is showing more than their competitors!

Regards,
Gordon

I'm not being a smartass, thank you. Maybe in Japan it's almost a year (you don't have to memorize the date shipped to recall that first deliveries there were in late April), but Racing Beat is a US company. First deliveries in the US were July. Half a year.

I meant I wasn't looking to buy a car as I just bought one in Janurary... I wasn't waiting on baited breath for the car to ship. Thus I didn't know exactly when other than the early part of 2003. The info card I picked up on it somewhere said something like spring 2003. Yeah yeah it's winter... Jan is nearly finished.. then Feb and March. That is almost a year, isn't it.

AND like I said... RB has a preproduction engine. Giving them one in June when the car comes out in July is rather pointless. Who knows when they really got it, but production engines were available since April... since this was a pre-production model... would Jan 2003 be unreasonable to consider?




Nothing unethical about it - head to head comparisons in advertising are normal in the US, comparing feature for feature, or mocking the claims of the competition. However - RB isn't even advertising it - they have the statements posted on their own web site. You have to go looking for it at RB to find it. I see nothing unethical about it, especially since RB isn't naming names. Obviously you have to consider that RB is competing with some of those vendors and factor that into your individual evaluation of the merit of RB's claims. Impartiality isn't a factor - otherwise, nobody would be allowed to claim "my product is the best" or "better than theirs", or "my product is built better than theirs using higher quality materials and workmanship". Any such advertising claim is partial! IF RB lied, then that would be unethical - how exactly is telling the truch unethical? Sure, the competition doesn't like it and finds it embarrassing - that isn't RB's problem, nor can I find fault with them for that.


And I would have had less problems with their statement if they did already have a product on the market and claimed "we tested their and got 2 hp and well ours only makes 2hp too" or even "ours is better than theirs." But they don't... they have nothing to compare feature by feature... nothing but saying "well the competing vendors overstate hp gain. OUR tests show only Xhp is possible." And you really wonder which exhaust systems and intakes they tested and got their findings.

Yes if they lied it's unethical... how do we know they aren't? I'm not trying to disparrage them, but rather can you or I verify their claim? It runs counter to what the vendors claim for their products. It could be a marketing ploy... how do we know different? Because they are RB? That is a logical falacy. Particularly made worse because they ARE an interested party.

Who has a plug-in, pre-mapped ECU mod out yet, besides Canzoomer? (Who just started shipping last week anyway) As far as I'm aware, nobody else (except maybe Ric Shaw) is shipping anything. I agree it's a whole lot of work and with the RX-8's extensively integrated system it's extremely complicated. This week we have Canzoomer, and maybe Ric Shaw out of Australia (again, just announced), but I don't think RB is really way behind the others in terms of ECU mod offerings yet.

BING... Canzoomer's is out, Ric Shaw's is out it seems and Knight Sports in Japan has one (import vendors will likely be selling soon). And yes even if Knight Sports is in Japan it still provides SOME level of competition... if the US market has nothing, people want a ECU mod... they'll order one from a JDM importer... and RB knows this as well a Mazda. Likely ONE reason why the got a pre-production engine to start working on.

AND anyway what was your point? The ECU mod is more complex than a cat-back exhaust system and CZ didn't have a pre-production engine to start his work with OR even Mazda's support. But his product is out. Ric Shaw's is out. Knight Sports' is out. Where's RB? If the exhaust is easier to do, then they should have had it out by now. Plain and simple. Their site even said they were planning on late Decemeber.... well boys January will be over soon... where's the beef...muffler I mean. :p


I guess I'm just very sceptical myself of the vague claims made by many vendors, and hate the marketing hype (for example, K&N's advertising is a masterpiece of misleading smoke and mirrors). I'm more appreciative of a company who is willing to say "you know, there really isn't as much HP in Renesis intakes and exhausts as some vendors would like you to believe", even though it will actually hurt sales of their products (when released) along with everyone else's, and I'm appreciative that the company doesn't then say "theirs only make 2 hp, but ours make 10 hp!", instead they say "ours make the same 2 hp as everyone else's". On the contrary, if we're discussing ethics then I'd suggest RB is showing more than their competitors!


You're skeptical of other vendors, but do you notice how you aren't holding RB to that same standard? Where is their proof? If the systems they tested don't put out like the vendors said, then put up your dynos and call them out. If they are "doing us a favor" then come out with it all... evidence and names. I'm very skeptical and cynical about not just vendors but the manufacturers as well. At least in the government and the IT industry I've seen too much of what goes on behind closed doors... I trust companies very little.

If RB is all that you and many other RB-lovers say they are... then they needed to say nothing. Let the other vendors make their outrageous claims. The community knows RB, and their quality. They'll come buy RB products anyway. What about a difference in hp claims? Well... as you said product comparison ads... WHEN you HAVE a prodcut to compare with.

The point is RB's ethics LOOK shakey when they cast a shadow over the competitors when they have no product and show no evidence. It's almost funny that they backtracked on the intake... "it makes little hp as Mazda did such a good job designing it... well one vendor's prodcut does make the numbers it seems, but is really noisy. We'll work on something simliar that addresses the noise issue." It looks shakey when no one asked them if they thought competing prodcuts made the numbers or not, but they come out with a statement like that. People wanted to know what they're working on and when it'll come out... not does brand X muffler really give me an extra 13hp? The vendors made their claims and posted their dynos... if they are incorrect for whatever reason... fine. Where is RB's proof that the dynos are wrong and an explanation of why they're wrong? You just take RB at their word, but are skeptical of the vendors... anyone see a problem with that, or is it just me?


As a matter of fact...about comparison advertising. Take a look at that car magazine on your coffee table, do you see Ford saying "The Camaro Z28 doesn't make 320hp, it only makes 250hp" or even "The Camaro Z28 only goes 0-60 in 6 sec, but the Mustang GT goes 0-60 in 5.4 sec." No you don't. Because GM would take them to court for liable. And an independent third party would be called in to perform the testing. If Ford was proven wrong...ouch! No... the ads read "Motor Trend Car of the Year" not "Ours is better because our tests show it and we say so. " Other ads read "Camaro Z28 0-60 in 6 sec., Ford Mustang GT 0-60 in 5.4 sec -April 2003 Motor Trend Magazine." Notice they use an "independent third party" (I dunno how "independent" they really are...but....) to provide the evidence for their claims. Often they don't directly make a claim... they just use quotes from the article "Best Mustang yet! -April 2003 Motor Trend Magazine" "Greatly improved handling! -April 2003 Motor Trend Magazine" etc.

So no... RB isn't allowed to make direct claims like that... it is unethical and if they named names they could be sued (so I suppose they can't come out with all the evidence and names)... they are basically calling the competition liars... liable. The auto manufacturers can't and don't do it and neither should RB...

Since I don't have an RX-8 I kinda have an unbiased view on this arguement. (at least I think so ;) )

Before I started reading this thread I thought nothing at all bad about what RB had on their web page. Yes, it did seem like the parts were taking forever, but it seemed to me that this highly reputable and successful rotary tuning company was just taking their time to develope the exact products they wanted. I also believe that those people who are upset about RB stating that other companies claims on HP gains are too high maybe own those products, and are mad - Yes/No?

Originally posted by Japan8
I meant I wasn't looking to buy a car as I just bought one in Janurary... I wasn't waiting on baited breath for the car to ship. Thus I didn't know exactly when other than the early part of 2003. The info card I picked up on it somewhere said something like spring 2003. Yeah yeah it's winter... Jan is nearly finished.. then Feb and March. That is almost a year, isn't it.
[/i]

i don't care what the marketing crap said, our cars didn't arrive till late july or early August.

Originally posted by s13lover
Since I don't have an RX-8 I kinda have an unbiased view on this arguement. (at least I think so ;) )

Before I started reading this thread I thought nothing at all bad about what RB had on their web page. Yes, it did seem like the parts were taking forever, but it seemed to me that this highly reputable and successful rotary tuning company was just taking their time to develope the exact products they wanted. I also believe that those people who are upset about RB stating that other companies claims on HP gains are too high maybe own those products, and are mad - Yes/No?

Check the sig. I don't own an 8... would like to though. So I don't have any parts to be mad about... clear? :D

Originally posted by pr0ber
i don't care what the marketing crap said, our cars didn't arrive till late july or early August.

What was that about? Check the location.... Japan. Gordon and I were mainly talking about the JAPANESE shipping date.

Originally posted by Japan8
What was that about? Check the location.... Japan. Gordon and I were mainly talking about the JAPANESE shipping date.

If that was the case I appologize... it seemed to me at the time your were insisting the US cars have been out for almost a year.

Originally posted by pr0ber
If that was the case I appologize... it seemed to me at the time your were insisting the US cars have been out for almost a year.

Nah, I was refering to the Japanese model... as that would be when RB could get the first production engines off the assembly line.

I just received this newsletter from Racing Beat. Sorry in advance if this was already posted.

Dear RX-8 Owner,



Just a quick update on the progress of new parts development for the RX-8! Jim Mederer and Damon Wong are continuing the ongoing project of designing and building a comprehensive test bench for use with the RX-8 ECU reprogramming project.

The framework of the bench has taken shape and the various hardware components are being secured and wired into place. Once finished, this test bench and reprogramming station will allow us to simulate engine operation with respect to operation and load. Based on this data, and combined with information from the engine dynamometer, we can modify the performance parameters of the ECU.

Currently we do not have a firm time frame on the availability, or pricing of this service. The reprogramming service would require that the ECU unit be unplugged from the vehicle and send to our Racing Beat facility. The reprogramming service will be completed on a "same day" basis and shipped to the customer later that day.

Suspension Springs

Suspension springs for the RX-8 are on the way from Japan and should arrive within the 1-2 weeks. Once they arrive, information will be posted on the site regarding pricing and technical specifications.

Nice!

You know what annoys me about all this? It's the ridiculous level of criticism that goes way beyond what RB actually did. IF they had said on their web page "the other add-ons companies are misleading you...only OURS gives you big hp gains!" then I'd go along with the criticism of RB, but they did just the opposite. What I read was a rather frank and honest admission about what to expect from add-ons for this particular car, by a company who DOES have a financial interest in selling you one.

The fact that it's taking them so long to come out with add-ons backs up their claims in my mind. They really are (and have been) working hard to TRY and get better performance rather than just slap something together, go by the old "tried-and-true" rule-of-thumb claims and start raking in the cash. All the while knowing that hardly anyone would take the time, or even have the ability to verify if the claims they made are accurate. The only "anyone" who could would be ANOTHER manufacturer. Can you say "lawsuit" boys and girls? I'll bet dollars to donuts they did get their competitor's products (every manufacturer does this) to see what they actually have to compete with. Their competition must not have done any better than they were...and they KNOW that they've done everything possible.....hence the statements.

I see their frank admissions as being them wanting to avoid any misunderstandings about what to expect from these add-ons. There is such a thing as class-action lawsuits against an entire industry. Not only are the "other" add-ons not giving big hp boosts, but THEY can't get those boosts either. They obviously HAVE been spending months and months trying to create something worthwhile for the price. They openly admit Mazda engineers did a pretty good job; something that is unusual for manufacturers who don't put the time or effort into getting that high a level of performance out of a "stock" system due to the expense necessary to reach that level. Mazda obviously did; they did the same thing RB is doing...REALLY working it to try and get everything they can out of it. Mazda did it to get every bit of hp out they could, and look at the complaining over hp even as it was! Can you imagine if they'd brought it out with only an advertised 220 hp? Everybody would slam them for not "trying harder" and immediately jump on aftermarket mods to "show them" what they "should have" done.

When you ask people to spend their money on your product, you worry that they won't feel it's worth what you're asking them to pay. I'm reminded of an old saying in the graphics/print industry: "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over." RB has chosen to take the time to "do it right" and I'm sure from reading their "cautions" about what to expect, that they themselves were surprised at how little was to be gained. They said as much; and by saying so, they clearly wanted customers to be prepared for the low hp numbers they will state their add-ons provide. Since they couldn't honestly promise a very big hp boost for a muffler system, they stated they spent a lot of time getting it to sound good. Something I appreciate since I don't want to ruin the enjoyment of the car with a too-loud or harsh-sounding exhaust just for a few lousy hp that I won't see unless I'm near red-line on the tach.

They are admitting the add-ons for the RX-8 are not going to produce the extra power that people have typically come to expect from such add-ons in the past. Coming from a company that makes its living by making and selling add-ons....I find that rather honest myself. I didn't see them trashing the competition as much as trying to cover their own customer's expectations.

But hey...if you feel RB is that bad, then don't buy their products. The couple of people who feel that way in here aren't going to put them out of business by not buying. The rest of us who think it's only a muffler, not an international treaty, will evaluate it on the basis of "what it does for me" and buy or not buy accordingly. Their reputation and business practices are fine by me. I've bought from them before, and I'll buy again if I feel it's worth the price.

You know what annoys me about all this? It's the ridiculous level of criticism that goes way beyond what RB actually did. IF they had said on their web page "the other add-ons companies are misleading you...only OURS gives you big hp gains!" then I'd go along with the criticism of RB, but they did just the opposite. What I read was a rather frank and honest admission about what to expect from add-ons for this particular car, by a company who DOES have a financial interest in selling you one.

Guess what....from RB's site "Others have already brought products to the market with what we have found to be some rather exaggerated claims. Rather than echo these claims we prefer to report exactly and honestly the results we see." It sounds like they are saying "other add-ons companies are misleading you..." "only WE will tell you the truth." Sounds a lot like they are saying what you said you wouldn't like.

You know what annoys me about all of this? All I hear is... "RB has been working so hard." "RB doesn't deserve this." "Since RB says it, it MUST be true..." You and several other people just take whatever RB says at face value because they are RB. Sorry it doesn't work that way. In my book RB has no reputation other than hearsay. I've never bought anything from them, dealt with them, or even heard their name until lthe MP3 came out.... and I've been a car enthusiest since I was 3! So why am I just going to trust them and believe what they say? What reason do I have to?

It's nice if RB wants to sit back on their laurels to sell prodcuts and back themselves up, but for people new to the rotary world, they have nothing to back themselves up with other than paper... and it will only get you so far.



The fact that it's taking them so long to come out with add-ons backs up their claims in my mind. They really are (and have been) working hard to TRY and get better performance rather than just slap something together, go by the old "tried-and-true" rule-of-thumb claims and start raking in the cash. All the while knowing that hardly anyone would take the time, or even have the ability to verify if the claims they made are accurate. The only "anyone" who could would be ANOTHER manufacturer. Can you say "lawsuit" boys and girls? I'll bet dollars to donuts they did get their competitor's products (every manufacturer does this) to see what they actually have to compete with. Their competition must not have done any better than they were...and they KNOW that they've done everything possible.....hence the statements.

Please explain by what logic does taking excessively long to release a product backup their claims that other companies are "exaggerating their claims."

As I stated in my last post... counter claims from a competing manufactuer are automatically tainted. That is why the real big boys don't do that... they use claims and data from a third party. So if a rotary magazine picks up a host of aftermarket parts and tests them, I'd be willing to more readily believe those claims.

I have little doubt that RB did buy and test the competing products for the reasons that you gave... to see what they are up against. Everyone does that in all industries... that's nothing special.


I see their frank admissions as being them wanting to avoid any misunderstandings about what to expect from these add-ons. There is such a thing as class-action lawsuits against an entire industry. Not only are the "other" add-ons not giving big hp boosts, but THEY can't get those boosts either. They obviously HAVE been spending months and months trying to create something worthwhile for the price. They openly admit Mazda engineers did a pretty good job; something that is unusual for manufacturers who don't put the time or effort into getting that high a level of performance out of a "stock" system due to the expense necessary to reach that level. Mazda obviously did; they did the same thing RB is doing...REALLY working it to try and get everything they can out of it. Mazda did it to get every bit of hp out they could, and look at the complaining over hp even as it was! Can you imagine if they'd brought it out with only an advertised 220 hp? Everybody would slam them for not "trying harder" and immediately jump on aftermarket mods to "show them" what they "should have" done.

And I see no reason to take their "frank admissions at face value." I'm not saying I believe or expect to see a 15-20hp boost from a mod outside of ECU. Rather why would I take RB's word over anyone else's that a cat-back will only net you about 5hp... not the approx. 10hp that seems to be the median among those offered?


When you ask people to spend their money on your product, you worry that they won't feel it's worth what you're asking them to pay. I'm reminded of an old saying in the graphics/print industry: "There's never time to do it right, but there's always time to do it over." RB has chosen to take the time to "do it right" and I'm sure from reading their "cautions" about what to expect, that they themselves were surprised at how little was to be gained. They said as much; and by saying so, they clearly wanted customers to be prepared for the low hp numbers they will state their add-ons provide. Since they couldn't honestly promise a very big hp boost for a muffler system, they stated they spent a lot of time getting it to sound good. Something I appreciate since I don't want to ruin the enjoyment of the car with a too-loud or harsh-sounding exhaust just for a few lousy hp that I won't see unless I'm near red-line on the tach.

Ok then... that is true. So let's check then... that's fair. I've started a poll to see if everyone is satisfied with their product... we'll see how loud and harsh the cat-backs are. Check it here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19029).


They are admitting the add-ons for the RX-8 are not going to produce the extra power that people have typically come to expect from such add-ons in the past. Coming from a company that makes its living by making and selling add-ons....I find that rather honest myself. I didn't see them trashing the competition as much as trying to cover their own customer's expectations.

If they had said this in reference to only their products then there'd be no problem. If they were quoting a third party that ran the comparison testing... a magazine, anything... then I would have no problem with the comments RB made about exaggerated claims.

RB original claim... "Intake – enlarging the oval inlet to the factory air box - +2 HP (this modification eliminates the VFAD intake duct.)"

RB later claims... "Although we held some early reservations that a simple "open element filter" intake configuration would produce additional power, our initial testing has shown some promise with this type of intake. But, one negative aspect of this configuration is the extremely loud intake sound that they can produce."

AND guess what boys and girls... they found extra power NOT from just enlarging the oval inlet to the airbox... no... it was using an open element design... sounds like K&N...

So what do you want to bet that their muffler will put out more than 4hp when release?



But hey...if you feel RB is that bad, then don't buy their products. The couple of people who feel that way in here aren't going to put them out of business by not buying. The rest of us who think it's only a muffler, not an international treaty, will evaluate it on the basis of "what it does for me" and buy or not buy accordingly. Their reputation and business practices are fine by me. I've bought from them before, and I'll buy again if I feel it's worth the price.

Who knows. I will try to avoid them, but like I have said in other threads... I do acknowledge that they have the right kind of "pedigree" and satisfied customers to know that their products are good. maybe not always the best performing, but well built and reliable stuff. Thus there may be something that I'd rather get from them instead of somewhere else. But that remains to be seen...

I vote with my wallet and word of mouth. If you don't expect and demand higher standards from companies then there won't provide it. Plain and simple...

This is for Gordon especially... RB says "Testing has been conducted on the Racing Beat engine dyno with both pre-production and production Renesis engines." If they've been testing things since they had the pre-prod engine, then they are very late. They are very late if individuals with no connection to Mazda and no pre-production engine can produce an ECU mod before they can produce even a muffler. So again I ask... where's the beef (from the old Wendy's commercials in case anyone missed it)?

Well Japan8, by your own admission you've never bought or used RB products. I have. Not only that, but I went down there and actually saw the facility, met the people including Damon one of the owners, talked with them and actually bought and installed an RB product on my Miata.

I prefer actual testimony from real owners/users than heresay from grandstand critics. RB is not a huge company; it's in a small industrial park in a "suite" but it's a very clean, high quality environment and the people there are friendly and genuine enthusiasts. They own Mazdas and use their own products on their own cars. Damon has a gorgeous red RX-7 all tricked out.

I have confidence in their products and integrity; and that's from an OWNER/USER. I will continue to defend them based on my OWN experience against people who have NONE with them.

Originally posted by Ole Spiff
Well Japan8, by your own admission you've never bought or used RB products. I have. Not only that, but I went down there and actually saw the facility, met the people including Damon one of the owners, talked with them and actually bought and installed an RB product on my Miata.

I prefer actual testimony from real owners/users than heresay from grandstand critics. RB is not a huge company; it's in a small industrial park in a "suite" but it's a very clean, high quality environment and the people there are friendly and genuine enthusiasts. They own Mazdas and use their own products on their own cars. Damon has a gorgeous red RX-7 all tricked out.

I have confidence in their products and integrity; and that's from an OWNER/USER. I will continue to defend them based on my OWN experience against people who have NONE with them.

And read back through my all my posts... never once did I criticize their products. I HAVE criticized their development time. I HAVE criticized their recent PR. Neither of these two have anything to do with their products directly. I HAVE repeated said that from what I have seen and heard their products do seem to be excellent.

You've used their products and love them. Wonderful. Good for you. That isn't the topic of the conversation. It is the PR/business via their website. So all the testamony in the world about the quality of their facilities and prodcuts has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

You know it is rather funny how people can become almost religiously fanatic about defending a company/product that they like... even if they are in no way related to said company. Like the Bud Light comercials... "tastes great!" "less filling!" :D

OK, suppose that I send Racing Beat my ECU and they do their thing to it, then I have to go to the dealer for something and they have some TSB or other reason to re-flash my ECU. What happens to the re-programming from Racing Beat? and what happens to my warranty if dealer is able to read the ECU and know it has been re-programmed?
I've thought all along that surely some enterprizing individual could get their hands on the original ECU program (before the catalytic converter issue re-programming) and make it available.
If the Racing Beat mod can be overridden by the dealer, then the plug-in version (like canzoomer's) is a more attractive option from my way of thinking.
Comments anybody?

Originally posted by Japan8
You know it is rather funny how people can become almost religiously fanatic about defending a company/product that they like... even if they are in no way related to said company. Like the Bud Light comercials... "tastes great!" "less filling!" :D

Kind of like almost everyone here defends the Mazda Rotary Engine... Right?

And then there are those who don't have a dog in this fight....or do they?
Makes me wonder if Japan8 works for an RB competitor or has some other reason to pour gasoline on this fire.

Originally posted by Superfan
Kind of like almost everyone here defends the Mazda Rotary Engine... Right?

Not exactly. If the name of the forum was RB Club.com, then yes... I'd very much understand.

But more precisely what I was pointing at is that you cannot even have a mature discussion because if a negative point arises, then the other person becomes like a petulant child and ceases to listen. All "discussion" after that becomes "I see a problem with X" "Na uh! I'm not listening to you!"

Thinking a little more about... maybe more a problem endemic of internet forums.

And then there are those who don't have a dog in this fight....or do they?
Makes me wonder if Japan8 works for an RB competitor or has some other reason to pour gasoline on this fire.



See my location, and check my profile. I've also stated in a different thread that I work in the IT industry here in Tokyo. I find little reason to hide such information. I WISH I could be involved in the auto or bike industry without having to work for the manufacturer.

I've poured gasoline on nothing. I've made no unreasonable arguements. I've made no ad hominem arguements. An opinion shared by at least a few people on this forum was stated. I agreed and offered a logical explanation as to what lead me to believe so and later added some supporting evidence. At no time did I say buying RB products was a waste of money or in anyway make a derogatory comment about the products, services, their office or the people whom work there.

What I did do was question the length of time is has taken to develop products for the RX-8 and personally felt that the hp comments were inappropriate. Has the state of social discourse in the US become so bad that you cannot question any "establishments"?

DaveT I agree with you 100% I like Canzoomers also because I can just take it off and bring the ECU back to Stock for Warranty Issues when necessary

You could always buy another ecu and send that one out to Racing beat. Im not sure how much these things cost but that would avoid having to mod the original.

"And read back through my all my posts... never once did I criticize their products. I HAVE criticized their development time. I HAVE criticized their recent PR. Neither of these two have anything to do with their products directly. I HAVE repeated said that from what I have seen and heard their products do seem to be excellent.

You've used their products and love them. Wonderful. Good for you. That isn't the topic of the conversation. It is the PR/business via their website. So all the testamony in the world about the quality of their facilities and prodcuts has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion."

I gave a logical reason for their development time and recent PR; you've chosen to ignore that. Development time has nothing to do with their products directly? How do you think products get developed? It has everything to do with this discussion because you and others have basically condemned them for being unethical in the way they do business. Having actually done business with them, I'm saying you're wrong. Your opinion vs my opinion.

This IS having a 'discourse'. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean the state of discussion in the U.S. has 'deteriorated'.

Let me help you out here...do NOT buy their products. Do NOT go to their website and read what they post about theirs or other's products. In fact, don't even read any more posts about RB and their products and claims. I want you to be protected and safe.

There...feel better now?

Problem with that approach Bridged, is the ECU wouldn't have the correct info on the condition of the car since it would only be installed once in awhile when you took it in for service. To be effective it needs to be active the whole time during the life of the car.

I think Canzoomer's approach is the best one because it's easily removable without altering the original. Reprogramming the original ECU will be instantly detectable the moment the dealer plugs your car into the computer. And I also know that the computer at the dealer talks to the Mazda corporate computers WHILE connected to your car so factory techs can help dealers trouble-shoot problems. Your warranty would be voided immediately, not to mention issues with getting smog certified every other year (something we have to do here in California to get our vehicle registration renewed).

I have a Stage 1 on order from Canzoomer; I won't be letting anybody reprogram my original ECU unless it's a factory update at the dealer.

I'd just like to point out, since I've participated in this discussion, that I've never bought a Racing Beat product (nor Rotary Extreme or Borla). I'm well familiar with the way many aftermarket equipment vendors exaggerate performance claims, especially for intake and exhaust parts. I know Racing Beat by reputation from what many, many others have written over the course of years, and it's been all good (and backed up by significant independent dyno testing, etc). I don't know Rotary Extreme, for example, beyond what I've seen written or discussed here (and NOBODY here has posted an independent dyno test of a RE intake or K&N intake). K&N is one of the intake vendors claiming power increases, and I wouldn't trust K&N's marketing department as far as I could throw the lot of them (I wouldn't use a K&N filter on a street engine that I wanted to live a long time, either, based on personal experience and extensive independent testing, though).

So for me - no axes to grind nor purchases to protect/justify. Japan8, you will find in one of my first posts in this thread that I suggested that independent testing would prove one side or the other of this discussion.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Ole Spiff
Reprogramming the original ECU will be instantly detectable the moment the dealer plugs your car into the computer.

At this point, that's just speculation. Exactly what does the dealer diagnostic systems read? Probably a version number or revision number from the ECU code. I'd doubt they are reading the entire engine fuel/timing map and comparing point-by-point to the original map. It might be relatively easy (for RB, Pettit, or others who've "broken" the code) to change the fuel/timing maps without altering the reference information, so the dealer would not be able to tell the fuel and timing or your ECU maps have been altered.

Yes, having the dealer re-flash the ECU with an updated map would be an issue; I'd imagine RB will have to offer a service to perform re-recode the ECU for free (ie shipping costs only).

I'm giving the market a bit of time to mature before I invest in any particular solution. I want to see what people find from their Canzoomer mods 6 months down the road, and I want to see what Pettit, RB, etc. come up with for plug'n'play solutions.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Ole Spiff
"And read back through my all my posts... never once did I criticize their products. I HAVE criticized their development time. I HAVE criticized their recent PR. Neither of these two have anything to do with their products directly. I HAVE repeated said that from what I have seen and heard their products do seem to be excellent.

You've used their products and love them. Wonderful. Good for you. That isn't the topic of the conversation. It is the PR/business via their website. So all the testamony in the world about the quality of their facilities and prodcuts has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion."

I gave a logical reason for their development time and recent PR; you've chosen to ignore that. Development time has nothing to do with their products directly? How do you think products get developed? It has everything to do with this discussion because you and others have basically condemned them for being unethical in the way they do business. Having actually done business with them, I'm saying you're wrong. Your opinion vs my opinion.

This IS having a 'discourse'. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean the state of discussion in the U.S. has 'deteriorated'.

Let me help you out here...do NOT buy their products. Do NOT go to their website and read what they post about theirs or other's products. In fact, don't even read any more posts about RB and their products and claims. I want you to be protected and safe.

There...feel better now?

What you and I in particular are having is you going "nyah nyah i don't hear you" while I've gone through and given reasonable explanations. What we have is you repeatedly using logical fallacies in trying to tell me that I am wrong. Have a look...
http://www.theology.edu/logic/logic23.htm
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/

You don't have to agree with me, but you don't leave me the option of not agreeing with you. If not only myself, but other people read RB's site PR and whether or not it was RB's intention, felt that the PR cast a shadow over the competing products then said intepretation of the statement holds some validity. Since this interpretation is possible it was felt that it was not proper for them to post it. Not everyone will see it as improper, but some will and that is the issue at hand.

The ethics of how their development schedule has gone and their actual products are not what anyone has been discussing. I suggest you re-read the thread. The ethics of their PR statement regarding the possible horsepower improvements gained by aftermarket modification and RB's claim that competing prodcuts have not given the gains claimed by their manufacturers is the main topic which was being discussed. Some people have said or insinuated that RB wanted to cast a doubt over the competitors because their stuff wasn't ready yet. I have never made that statement nor made that arguement.

You did not give a logical reason as to why their development is slow. You said their shop is small. Yes, and? How large do you think the shops in Japan are? How large do you think Canzoomer's is? Making the ECU isn't even his real job... just something he is doing for the community on the side. As Gordon admitted that is more involved than producing a muffler. I'm not asking RB to have everything ready tomorrow. I'm asking why are they taking so long with a simple product than others have with something more complicated? So I ask you to logically explain how their shop being small handicaps RB more than anyone else.

In any production industry you have a development schedule and yes things do slip sometimes, but you do your best to stick to said schedule. RB has said that they expected to release the cat-back in late December and we are now in late Janurary. Why? Saying that their shop is small is not a reasonable explanation. If you are small then you have to "pick your battles" per se... or maybe a better way to put it is prioritize.

No, development time as being discussed here has nothing to do with the products directly. What is being discussed is the amount of time they had available to them in which to produce an exhaust system... their scheduling. This approximate number was then compared against smaller competitors with less experience (meaning professional RB should be able to do the same or better in similar or less time) who were working on something more complicated, but yet completed before RB.

The quality of discourse has deterioriated. You have been repeatedly using logical fallacies to argue your point. You have basically said that RB is not doing anything unethical because I have bought an intake from them and visited their shop. How does that prove anything other than they make a good product and you can trust to not get ripped off? You have not explained why a PR statement that may have been meant to be benign, but has also been negatively interpreted by several people, is not improper... or maybe should be stated as since it can and has been interpreted that way RB should not have posted that to their site. You have attempted to discredit me and therefore my arguement because I do not own any RB products... that is another logical fallacy. The quality and performance of their products is not in question here... thus ownership of their products is irrelevant.

And for the exact reason I gave with my Ford Mustang GT/Chevy Camaro Z28 example, RB's statement about competing products is improper... it's called Fallacies of Explanation... specifically non-support.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
I'd just like to point out, since I've participated in this discussion, that I've never bought a Racing Beat product (nor Rotary Extreme or Borla). I'm well familiar with the way many aftermarket equipment vendors exaggerate performance claims, especially for intake and exhaust parts. I know Racing Beat by reputation from what many, many others have written over the course of years, and it's been all good (and backed up by significant independent dyno testing, etc). I don't know Rotary Extreme, for example, beyond what I've seen written or discussed here (and NOBODY here has posted an independent dyno test of a RE intake or K&N intake). K&N is one of the intake vendors claiming power increases, and I wouldn't trust K&N's marketing department as far as I could throw the lot of them (I wouldn't use a K&N filter on a street engine that I wanted to live a long time, either, based on personal experience and extensive independent testing, though).

So for me - no axes to grind nor purchases to protect/justify. Japan8, you will find in one of my first posts in this thread that I suggested that independent testing would prove one side or the other of this discussion.

Regards,
Gordon

You've just about summed up my feelings. I didn't know of RB until the MP3 came out and even then it wasn't mentioned in Japan at all... they renamed the car Mazdaspeed Familia. Since that time I've heard nothing but good things about their products, so as I've said many times... I believe that they do make a good product. I know Borla from the American Muscle Car magazines... cat-backs for the Mustangs, Camaros, Corvettes, etc. The magazines all had good things to say about it. However other competitors.... it's a bit of a leap of faith for me as I know little to nothing at all about them.

To really see what's going on... I agree... independent testing is needed.

Originally posted by Japan8
I agree... independent testing is needed. ... and let's leave it at that. This has been a good discussion, with good points articulately made by all. Let's not let it deteriorate into fight, and stop it here. Thanks.

Reprogramming the ECU ( assuming anyone can actually do it) is not likely to be detectable by the dealer, unless it disturbs the diagnostics procedures on the OBD.

If they do it right that will not be a problem.

Things that might be a problem:
Dealer re-flash of the ECU. There is already one TSB for doing just that. Wether or not a dealer will do it to your car is something you need to take up with the dealer.

Other points:
If you wanted to run a second ECU there are some issues:
The ECU, immobilizer and your keys need to be programmed at the dealership, AS A SET.
Otherwise your car will not start.
One would have to buy a seond ECU, a second immobilizer, and a second set of keys, take to the dealers, have it put in, and have it programmed.
At that point you have a working set.
Then, you have to swap as needed.
Getting at the immobilizer is (intentionally) VERY difficullt.

Not a practical solution, IMHO.
I had already explored this route as an optiion earlier on.

Cost of a new RCU from Japan is around $900, BTW.
The immobilizer can only be supplied and installed by a dealership, and the part cost is $440.
Keys are around $100 each.

Naturally, if you re-flash your ECU, and you have to go for an emmissions test, you will have a problem.

These are the reasons we chose to go the way we did with or quest for performance.

Ta!

I investigated getting a Japanese spec. PCM from a colleague in Japan. The ECU for the 6MT "hi-power" engine comes to $724, but then you've got to ship it. According to my local dealer (so take this with a potential grain or two) the WDS system that Mazda dealers use for PCM diagnosis and programming contains the fuel maps for each geography. The "W" stands for "world-wide". So, theoretically a U.S. dealer could load the Japanese spec engine map into your PCM. The only problem is that this is illegal. They're not allowed to do this because this would be a violation of state and federal emissions laws. It would be fascinating to see how the RX-8 performs with the Japanese maps, if only for a day...

To be honest, I suspect that the after market maps developed by canzoomer and in the works by others will be superior to any that Mazda currently has. Of course, there's the interesting possibility for a Mazdaspeed PCM, but that's going to be constrained by the same U.S. emissions laws as the stock one. I'm not holding my breath for a map update from Mazda. They're being very quiet on this subject in fact.

Just checked the Racing Beat site and saw "EXPECTED AVAILABILITY: END OF FEBRUARY" for the exhaust. That's 8 months after the release of the car. I think they're sending each unit to get the popes blessing or something. I'm hurting and that GReddy is looking nice.

At this point, that's just speculation. Exactly what does the dealer diagnostic systems read? Probably a version number or revision number from the ECU code. I'd doubt they are reading the entire engine fuel/timing map and comparing point-by-point to the original map. It might be relatively easy (for RB, Pettit, or others who've "broken" the code) to change the fuel/timing maps without altering the reference information, so the dealer would not be able to tell the fuel and timing or your ECU maps have been altered.

When I had the dealer hook my car up, the diagnostic system read the ECU burn date/time and a serial number of sorts. Speculation, yes. IMHO the system would easily figure out based on VIN# compared to ECU flash date/time and build/serial number in the ECU. Of course all of that is encrypted in the first place. CZ has exploited a very practical way to deal with un-desirable fuel management while maintaining all other functions - and no one has to know about it. Not to mention resale value.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
At this point, that's just speculation. Exactly what does the dealer diagnostic systems read? Probably a version number or revision number from the ECU code. I'd doubt they are reading the entire engine fuel/timing map and comparing point-by-point to the original map. It might be relatively easy (for RB, Pettit, or others who've "broken" the code) to change the fuel/timing maps without altering the reference information, so the dealer would not be able to tell the fuel and timing or your ECU maps have been altered.

Yes, having the dealer re-flash the ECU with an updated map would be an issue; I'd imagine RB will have to offer a service to perform re-recode the ECU for free (ie shipping costs only).

Regards,
Gordon

A properly done ECU remap should not show telltale tampering.
There are certain diagnostic routines that may show oddities, however. As for the "ET call home" aspect that some mentioned. No, that does nothappen. They "call home" if they hit certain situations not covered in training. Also when they are doing re-programming of things like security codes for the immobilizer/key stuff. In normal service that would not happen.

However a re-flash by the dealer would wipe out a re-program.

That is the biggest danger.

Not to be contradictory CZ but since I was the "someone" who mentioned "phoning home" I'd like to say that was based on personal experience. Early in August when my oil light came on briefly and I took it to the dealer, they hooked up my car to their computer which connected to Mazda factory computers and they did the analysis. They came back with the oil pan baffle diagnosis.

I don't know what all the factory techs were able to see on my car but I do know for a fact they <i>were</i> reading the status of the electronics because the dealer was watching them do it and talking to them on the phone.

If reprogramming the ECU would present the hazard of losing my warranty and/or free service (I have an early RX8) then I'm not taking that chance. I don't mind buying (which I have on order) your Stage 1 mod and adding that because it can easily be removed if needed.

Just my personal views. I also would hate to pay to reprogram the ECU which could be money instantly lost if the dealer reprograms it without telling you first.

Originally posted by Ole Spiff
Not to be contradictory CZ but since I was the "someone" who mentioned "phoning home" I'd like to say that was based on personal experience. Early in August when my oil light came on briefly and I took it to the dealer, they hooked up my car to their computer which connected to Mazda factory computers and they did the analysis. They came back with the oil pan baffle diagnosis.

Just my personal views. I also would hate to pay to reprogram the ECU which could be money instantly lost if the dealer reprograms it without telling you first.

Read again, where I said:
"They "call home" if they hit certain situations not covered in training."

This was one not "in the book"

I too watched them take over my car from headquarters last fall.
The dealer had *no manuals, no parts* so *everyting* was "not in the book"for them.

As for dealer re-flashes, one has the right to tell the dealer to NOT do any procedure without your permission.
However some of the re-flashes are for important updates..

To: Forum Members
From: Racing Beat

Let me make some brief comments on some of the issues that have been brought up on this thread.

1. Racing Beat does not bash other competitors’ products. There is no one perfect product for any given application. Every competing product has its pros and cons, you must decide which particular aftermarket component meets your budget, reliability, safety, and performance requirements.

2. Racing Beat engineers, designs, and manufactures performance products for a wide Mazda consumer base. We intend these parts to be reliable, bolt-on components that can be installed by the average enthusiast, week-end mechanic, or racer. Also, we will build racing engines to your specifications.


3. Racing Beat conducts extensive in-house testing on our products. We utilize our engine dyno facility to test our engine components for repeatable performance gains and reliability prior to their release. We invite anyone to stop by our shop, including our competitors, to view our facility and review our test procedures. This same dyno is used to test competitors’ products to verify their claims. The results of these tests will be published in a fair and factual manner as possible. It is your choice to believe these results or not.

4. Yes, Racing Beat is commercial business; however, we are a group of “car guys” that love making performance parts, but we will not make parts that are “cheap”, unreliable, or unsafe. RX-8 owners have spent a considerable amount of money on their cars and we assume that ride quality, reliability, sound level quality, etc… are important factors. If you want a loud, buzzy, juvenile sounding muffler or intake, you can gladly shop elsewhere.


5. Racing Beat produces only Mazda products. For over 30 years, we have been developing components for rotary applications; we are not latecomers just now jumping on the bandwagon. We have an on-going consulting and working relationship with Mazda and co-operate on selected projects. The details of any such project is proprietary and is held in strict confidence.

6. Occasionally, new projects can be delayed. Although it may seem that we are proceeding slowly with the RX-8, we also have ongoing projects with theRX-7, Mazda 6, Protégé, Miata, and Mazda 3. Much of the technology on the newer cars is state-of-the-art and we have invested in equipment, personnel, education, and software to understand this latest technology. We try not to “paint ourselves into a corner” by providing exact release dates for new components, as unexpected delays can and do occur. Attempts will be made to keep you informed of the progress of each project through the website, email messages, and forum postings.


7. If you have an issue with one of our products, test results, or marketing practices, you can contact us directly to address these issues. We do not hide our identity behind an anonymous user ID. My name is Jim Langer and I, or any other Racing Beat employees can be contacted via this forum, contact links on our site, by telephone, or by mail. We will gladly answer any question that you have.


Best regards,
Jim Langer
Racing Beat, Inc.

thanks for the info racing beat

do you have any eta on any products for us rx8 owners

I second that, helpful info, racing beat.

But claiming that others "hide" behind anonymous screen names may be a bit much. Every dealer/vendor I've dealt with here has always been more than happy to offer names, direct phone lines, direct e-mail addresses. :)

Alot of people on here you may be singling out have developed a lot of trust from the RX-8 population, it may not be business-wise to make weighted comments of that sort.

--Landon

Sorry if you got the idea I was singling any one in particular, I tried to keep my message vague enough, but still reply to some of the issues that were brought up.

As a aftermarket vendor, I am wary of venturing into a forum. We can feel like we are walking on eggshells because many of our posts are viewed with skepticism. Many people think we are out to downplay the competitor’s products or overstate the performance of our products just to make a sale. Many of the forums that I have dealt with do not allow the posting of commercial replies by vendors in the “public” rooms and have a specific “vendor” rooms for this purpose.

Most of my replies are written in a “politically correct” corporate manner, are there times when I would like to bash away with sarcastic wit? Yes, many!

Now lets have some fun and talk about the real reason we are here, the RX-8. Just 30 minutes ago I finished a product shoot for a new and relatively simple product that we will be introducing next week. We are proceeding along with our “virtual engine” test bench for our ECU project; full details will be posted on this project.

Drive on!

Originally posted by Landon_Starr
I second that, helpful info, racing beat.

But claiming that others "hide" behind anonymous screen names may be a bit much. Every dealer/vendor I've dealt with here has always been more than happy to offer names, direct phone lines, direct e-mail addresses. :)

Alot of people on here you may be singling out have developed a lot of trust from the RX-8 population, it may not be business-wise to make weighted comments of that sort.

--Landon

I disagree with you. His language was perfectly fine.

Any new updates or has this discussion been picked up in a different thread that I'm just not aware of?