Go complain to Mazda! :)

Go here:

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/emailMazda.action

I did, basically demanding a "Moonroof Delete" option on the GT package... and I got this response:

"Dear Dave,

I have documented your suggestion for our corporate record. These
records are continuously being reviewed by our Product Planning
Department in an effort to provide only the highest quality products to
our customers.

Please know, Mazda does listen to customer comments and it is possible
that this could be changed in the future. Due to customer comments on
the build combinations for the 2003 MAZDA6, they were changed for the
2004 model."

Now, maybe they will offer the Moonroof Delete in MY 2005, maybe not. Probably just a stock response.

But if you want the GT package WITHOUT a moonroof, let's at least annoy the hell out of them with requests!

:D

I am admiting ignorance on this topic but can't you just slide the cover closed and not even realize the moonroof exists. Why is this a big deal. I am curious?

Originally posted by racerdave

Due to customer comments on
the build combinations for the 2003 MAZDA6, they were changed for the
2004 model."

......

But if you want the GT package WITHOUT a moonroof, let's at least annoy the hell out of them with requests!

:D

yep they did listen to us about the 6 packages there were many of us here(thanks to Rich who got us started) as well as on the atenza forum that sent in uor thoughts on the horrible packaging for the 6. it was very important to us here because we didn't want to see that kind of crap for the RX-8. the packages for the 8 in the states aren't the best but i guarantee you they are better because of our letters on the 6 situation.

so definetly send your emails and letters to them about it, because they will change things if they get enough mail. i dont understand why you can't get the touring or grand touring without one in the states any way. everywhere else it is an option on top of the packages or in a seperate package with something else- except australia where they can't get it at all yet.

Several reasons this is a big deal for some:

1) Headroom. The moonroof assembly results in about 1.5" less headroom! For taller drivers (or even those long of torso), that's very significant.

2) Stiffness - often, a moonroof-equipped vehicle is slightly less stiff than a full steel roof version, because of the big hole!

3) Weight - moonroofs and motor and rail slide mechanisms are always heavier than the plain steel panel they replace.

4) Cost and complexity - a moonroof adds cost, and potential for leaks or electrical problems in the years down the road.

FWIW (and as Dave well knows), in Canada Mazda sells the RX-8 GT leather package without the moonroof. The moonroof is a stand-alone factory option. My Canadian RX-8 GT has the leather package but no moonroof, just as Dave would like to get. Mazda does build them that way - it's just up to Mazda USA to juggle their options packages to let US customers get them that way.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by KFence27
I am admiting ignorance on this topic but can't you just slide the cover closed and not even realize the moonroof exists. Why is this a big deal. I am curious?

it takes out about an inch and a half of headroom. so some of the taller people find they touch the roof in the gt but not in the base model. and they would get the base model but they want the HID's and leather and other stuff that is not available on the base and touring packages.

also try emailing rx8orders@mazdausa.com . but be nice, the folks there have been very kind to us thru-out the pre-order process, even when we were giving them alot of grief.

Interesting, thank you all for the enlightenment. Makes sense now. What i'd do without rx8club...hmmmm

spend time with your family?

nah! you'd spend more time driving the car ;)

The first person I met with an RX-8 said he bought the base package for its "helmet room." I really wanted the moon roof, but in the winter I really would like the extra 1.5 inches.

Now the weight that the moonroof adds, isn't too much, but it's in the worst spot on the car...the highest point in the car.

It's interesting that it's not an option, not just because it's an option elsewhere. In Canada, the interior color of your car is predetermined by the exterior color, as is the seat material pretermined on the two trims. So although they're obviously concerned about the number of combinations, the roof is an option - where as in the states, there are 2-3 times as many combinations.

On a side note, the Nav cannot be had without the moonroof up here.

Yep, I used "other markets" as part of the justification in my email. Because like others have said, a roof is a separate option in Canada and other places.

I do not mind at all if they keep the moonroof as part of the GT package.

But what I would like is for them to offer a no (or even low) cost "Moonroof Delete" option on the GT package.

I want the GT package, but I *need* the headroom... therefore the moonroof must go.

And right now, in the US, there is no way to do it.

I could try to get one in Canada, but I'd be financing some of the car and I'm not sure what kind of quagmire that could be, being a US citizen trying finance a car in Canada.

I'd much rather buy in the US... but with NO moonroof, and the GT package.

Why not a-la-carte option choices? Even if it has to ordered from the factory... so what? For example, someone might want HID, power seats, and leather, but no Bose and no sunroof.

Why no clear side markers? Is this because of some US saftey law, or is it the usual problem that someone THINKS that Americans won't like that kind of thing (I see this or the opposite happen ALL the time... idiots)??

Why no Mazdaspeed RX-8?

I'm not mentioning turbos because....

- There are rumors of it for the 7 and you don't want the 8 to be as fast as the 7
- The 8 doesn't compete with the Skyline in Japan... the 7 does.
- Adding the turbo will make getting the Renesis to pass emissions difficult.

Why no low-power 5 speed RX-8??

Why is the lip spoiler not available?

Why no sunroof or cruise control in Japan?

Who decides these things and how did he/she get their job?

Why wasn't the damn 5 door and wagon Atenza (Mazda 6) released in the US from the beginning?

Doesn't the V6 make the car too heavy like the Altezza (IS300) since it was originally designed to have a 4 cyc.? Why didn't they just turbo charge the 4??

Why doesn't the so-called "sports model" Mazda 6 has fog lights, side skirts or the body colored grill?

Why the hell is the side skirt that half length thing on the RX-8??

Why isn't the Demio released in the US as Mazda's entry level car?

Is the Premacy really too inbetween to sell in the US... i.e. kinda mini van, kinda Protege 5 wagon-ish... so it will cut sales on one or the other? I dunno... cheaper than the MPV and 7 seater capacity would get a bunch of lower income soccer moms....

Oh yeah... why a freakin' DVD nav unit $2000 USD?? If it was a HDD unit I'd understand...

That's a lotta questions. :)

But before I forget, the Lexus IS300 is a case in point. Now, all they are advertising for 2004 is packages with roofs included. It doesn't look like there's any other way to get an IS300 but with a roof.

However! They DO have an unpublicized "Moonroof Delete" option. They will have to special build the car and it will take longer, but it *can* be done, even though it's not advertised.

So if Lexus can do it, so can Mazda.

I'm with you racerdave, I just sent my email.....
The RX-8 with a moonroof does have a headroom problem for people 6'1'' and taller.
As a result I 'll have to buy the sports package, install leather aftermarket and forego all the other options.

Originally posted by Japan8
Why no clear side markers?Funny you should bring this up - in the C&D buyers guide they have a breakdown of their Top10 which features a Red RX8, then later on in the issue, they list all the cars. The RX8 in that listing is black with clear side markers!

Originally posted by Japan8
Why no clear side markers?
I believe California law requires side marker lights be "amber." When I checked the Illinois Vehicle Code I could find nothing about side marker lights at all, but decided to play it safe and installed amber bulbs. You'd never know they were white if you were to see them at night.

By the way, the only thing that was not perfect with my car when it was delivered is that I found some grease where the moonroof was installed. This does not look like a factory install - I'm guessing they did it at the port.

The NAV costs $2000 because at this point in time, people will pay it. I sucked it up and bought it (paying invoice - $1721), but having done so I must say I'm very impressed. I think the NavTech system is rock solid.

Originally posted by racerdave
So if Lexus can do it, so can Mazda.

Maybe you didn't get far enough into the process with the 325i but there is a lot that can be done about modifying the standard packages on BMWs...if you have a willing salesman. There are a number of options that aren't officially available in the US that you can get on your car as well (such as cloth seats and "Individual" paint). Those special order cars, though, have to be approved by BMWNA which is no small task and why it takes a salesman willing to put in the effort. The other thing working against you with BMW is that dealers don't want to get stuck with oddball cars that they won't be able to sell if you back out after the car goes into production.

There's a reason that Henry Ford used to say that you could buy his cars in any color you want, as long as it's black. While it would be nice to have ala carte options, costs would rise substantially for each option. It just plain costs less to build 100 cars 1 way than it does to build 100 cars 100 ways. It's one of the reasons that option prices on Porsches are so outrageous...they offer everything under the sun, in every color under the sun and you can pick and choose exactly what you want. (The other big reason is that they gouge you because they can. :p)

You do have a point there, however... it wouldn't kill Mazda to offer a "delete sunroof" option for the Touring and Grand Touring packages. To even things out they can make the Bose stereo standard across all models. That isn't so bad now is it?

Originally posted by Japan8
-Why wasn't the damn 5 door and wagon Atenza (Mazda 6) released in the US from the beginning?



it had to do with production capacity at the US plant as well as availability on some parts. However i still view it as a blunder on their part because they easily could have sold a a hefty amount of hatches and wagons by now. i believe the hatch with the special kurakiri folding rear seat will easily out sell the sedan once they start hitting the dealers.


and just where is mazda's TV ad campaigns for any model? i haven't seean an RX-8 or Mazda6 commercial for sometime and have still not seen really any advertising for the Mazda3 other than a C&D TV review. and i watch alot of TV.

Originally posted by clyde
Maybe you didn't get far enough into the process with the 325i but there is a lot that can be done about modifying the standard packages on BMWs...if you have a willing salesman.

Actually, I was considering special-ordering lumbar on a 325i SP with the standard manual seats. I found a guy at Bill Jacobs in Naperville, IL who hadn't done it, but was willing to do so because as he said, "well, if another dealer can do it, so can we. It might not be easy, but we'll work with you on it."


Originally posted by clyde

There's a reason that Henry Ford... While it would be nice to have ala carte options, costs would rise substantially for each option.

While I understand this, if they only offer a "Moonroof Delete" I can't see how that will be so bad. Most customers buying GT won't take advantage of it, but with the others that do, Mazda will be effectively getting their money back by not having to install a moonroof, which would be about a $1000 option if it was standalone.

IMHO :)

Originally posted by zoom44
have still not seen really any advertising for the Mazda3 other than a C&D TV review. and i watch alot of TV. I see the same ad for the 3 all the time (Canada though). Same dude over and over again who thinks the 3 is a great sedan and then out of nowhere his twin drives up in a 5 door.

I just wanted a Traction control/DSC delete.....I like pure driving...

Yeah, but it's not that hard to press the button for a few seconds.

It's a bit harder to do that with headroom. :)

(and no, opening the roof does not count :) )

Originally posted by fluque
I'm with you racerdave, I just sent my email.....
The RX-8 with a moonroof does have a headroom problem for people 6'1'' and taller.
As a result I 'll have to buy the sports package, install leather aftermarket and forego all the other options.

I'm 5'10" and still could feel the roof if I positioned the seat for best driving position. Went sport also. In fact I can't imagine anyone getting the moonroof unless all of their friends and family are short! "Sorry, you're 6'2" so you can't fit in my car !?" That's whacked.

lol quit yer bitchin try riding in the back of an eclipse ;)

Howdy,

Send your deleted sunroofs down to Australia - I'll take one!

Mazda's wisdom doesn't even have this as an option down here.

My previous BMW 328 had one, as did the Astina 323 SP before that - would love one on the RX8!

Pappy

See... that just makes no sense. It's an option in Canada, which is nice... you can't *not* get it in the US on the two higher-priced packages... and you can't even get a moonroof in Oz!

WTF?

You can't even get a sunroof in Japan either.

Now you tell me about costs and production... this seems to have little to do with that and more to do with mistaken marketing.

WTF?!

I sent my email. I plan on taking my 8 to the track at least once. If I can't fit in it with a helmut (which i don't know if I can with a moonroof), then that would just suck. I want to have some fun in my car dang it! :)

Thanks for the suggestion!
serff

Thanks Serff! :)

Originally posted by Japan8
You can't even get a sunroof in Japan either.

Now you tell me about costs and production... this seems to have little to do with that and more to do with mistaken marketing.

WTF?!

It's ALL about money. And that's the way it has to be.

It's not about whether it's physically possible to offer a single option by itself because, in nearly all cases, it is. The question is whether it can be offered at a price point where they will sell enough of that stand alone option to meet their profit targets. On top of that, dealers (particularly in the US and other countries where the consumer can't be forced to take delivery of a custom spec'd car) don't want to be stuck with cars in oddball configurations that they can't find buyers for if the original customer backs out after the car is built.

So, they have product planners that do market research in the different markets where the cars will be sold and they put together option packages. There will always be some people that are unhappy with the package contents, but manufacturers and their subsidiary organizations in other countries (MNAO in the US) spend a lot of time and money on determining those packages for each market and they generally do a pretty good job in satisfying the masses that buy the cars. It's only the weirdos like us that complain with any volume. If/when we complain loug and long enough to make them think that they can change package contents and still hit their profit targets, the packages change in subsequent model years.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
The first person I met with an RX-8 said he bought the base package for its "helmet room." I really wanted the moon roof, but in the winter I really would like the extra 1.5 inches.

That's what I did, and it's still a tight fit with a helmet on when I'm on the track.

I got a sport, so cloth and no sunroof.

I might have considered GT with no sunroof, but leather can get a bit slippy and hot when it's 110+ degrees out. Hmmm, other GT options with cloth and no sunroof ;)

i sent my email.

I am 6'1". My head rests against the roof if there is a moonroof. It is currently the ONLY reason i do not have an 8 right now. I am picky. I want leather and I want Nav. Aftermarket leather is more hassle than i want to deal with. I guess that makes me picky and lazy.

My hope is they will get this fixed for 05. If they don't then i will be buying something else.

greese

I sent Mazda a message and I just received a reply. Here it is:


Dear Matthew,

Thank you for contacting Mazda North American Operations. I appreciate
the opportunity to respond to you.

In regard to your inquiry, we have heard of this concern from a number
of consumers. I have spoken with our Product Planning Department, and
they don't believe this is going to change for the 2005 model year.
However, they are doing some further research on the subject. I'll get
back to you as soon as I hear back from them. I appreciate your
patience.

Regards,

Lisa Lasky
Specialist, Customer Assistance E-Business





Original Message Follows:
------------------------


Form Message
First Name: Matthew
Last Name: Vaillant
Current Mazda Owner: true
Model: RX-8
Year: 2004
Message Body: Hello, I'm very interested in the RX-8 (I've been
following it since the RX-Evolv days) and am looking to purchase a car
in the next few months. I've always been a Mazda fan, owning a Miata and
helping my girlfriend pick out a yellow Protege5, and like the sporty
model lineup. My problem with the RX-8 is the fact that with a sunroof
installed, there just isn't enough headroom. While I'm considering the
Sport package, I'd much rather have the GT package. Will there be some
sort of sunroof delete for 2005, or perhaps offer the sunroof as a
standalone option? I know that you try to minimize the number of
different options to keep production costs down, but I've heard quite a
few people complain about this and I think some sales are being lost.
Anyway, thanks for your time, - Matt

Great email Matt, and thanks for sharing the response.

Even if you would *not* take advantage of the "Moonroof-delete" option, please help us spam the hell out of Mazda so they will at least offer it for 2005.

It sounds like if we keep ragging on them, they might cave. :)

Help me Obi-Wan Kenobi, you're my only hope!

:)

That's cool. You got a meaningful response. I work for a Toyota dealer, and I emailed Toyota direct about the 6speed not being available in the Celica GTS for 2001. I got a generic response. It went like "We are sorry but some options and features aren't available in some regions". That sucked. No reason why or anything, just a "that's the way it is and that's it" answer.


I think for the most part, for me, Mazda did alright with the current option packages. I don't like the leather, moonroof, heated seats, or Bose audio, anyway. I'll take if it was free, and I could afford another RX8. One luxo-cruiser and one more stripped down. I wanted the lightest RX8. I got it for performance. I like the way all 6 speeds come with all the performance enhancing stuff standard, (LSD, sport suspension, big brakes, and 18's).

Originally posted by racerdave
..... Even if you would *not* take advantage of the "Moonroof-delete" option, please help us spam the hell out of Mazda so they will at least offer it for 2005.....

Yikes ....... I hope you people don't spam them so bad that they stop offering a sunroof completely. If the car was not available with a sunroof, I would not even have considered it.

I do support your desires to have a car without a sunroof, though.

Dear Mazda,
Please make the sunroof an option so tall people can buy the car without one ..... then sales will go up even more! And you can then make even more sales by offering the sunroof in places where you currently don't. What, it costs a bit more to do that ......? No problem, they'll pay! :)

regards,
rx8cited

Originally posted by racerdave
..... Even if you would *not* take advantage of the "Moonroof-delete" option, please help us spam the hell out of Mazda so they will at least offer it for 2005.....

Yikes ....... I hope you people don't spam them so bad that they stop offering a sunroof completely. If the car was not available with a sunroof, I would not even have considered it.

I do support your desires to have a car without a sunroof, though.

Dear Mazda,
Please make the sunroof an option so tall people can buy the car without one ..... then sales will go up even more! And you can then make even more sales by offering the sunroof in places where you currently don't. What, it costs a bit more to do that ......? No problem, they'll pay! :)

regards,
rx8cited

Originally posted by rx8cited
Dear Mazda,
Please make the sunroof an option so tall people can buy the car without one ..... then sales will go up even more! And you can then make even more sales by offering the sunroof in places where you currently don't. What, it costs a bit more to do that ......? No problem, they'll pay! :)

regards,
rx8cited

Yes exactly right. Say it costs $200 for Mazda to install a moonroof, mazda invoices the dealer $400 and the dealer retails it at $500, then offer it this as an option for the base and sport packages. At the same time they can still bundle it with the GT and T packages with a $800 option delete choice. I can't see mazda not making money.

Originally posted by clyde
It's ALL about money. And that's the way it has to be.

It's not about whether it's physically possible to offer a single option by itself because, in nearly all cases, it is. The question is whether it can be offered at a price point where they will sell enough of that stand alone option to meet their profit targets. On top of that, dealers (particularly in the US and other countries where the consumer can't be forced to take delivery of a custom spec'd car) don't want to be stuck with cars in oddball configurations that they can't find buyers for if the original customer backs out after the car is built.

So, they have product planners that do market research in the different markets where the cars will be sold and they put together option packages. There will always be some people that are unhappy with the package contents, but manufacturers and their subsidiary organizations in other countries (MNAO in the US) spend a lot of time and money on determining those packages for each market and they generally do a pretty good job in satisfying the masses that buy the cars. It's only the weirdos like us that complain with any volume. If/when we complain loug and long enough to make them think that they can change package contents and still hit their profit targets, the packages change in subsequent model years.

Start by saying this... anyone who doesn't know /understand that ALL busineses are all about the money are deceiving themselves.

That being said, I think you give entirely too much credit to businesses as a whole. They think they are much more clever than they really are. How is this? Well, we'll talk about the foreign capitalized companies in Japan first (which now both Mazda and Nissan have become).

The problems seen in this area are so many I don't know where to begin. I guess we start with the US-side. They have no understanding of the Japanese market, and seem to lose all common sense they use back in their home market... one prime example is when looking for a country manager or president for the Japan office. They are merely happy to find a bilingual Japanese person with the necessary 7-10 years of sales experience in said market. Mistake number one.

You talk about market research. In the ideal this is true, but reality rarely holds up to the ideal. There are many companies of significant size that open offices in Japan without first doing any kind of market research, and some actually believe that they can come into a mature market with their way and be able to change it! Preposterous! So they limp along in the Japanese market or simply fail. So what about those that do research?

First, I'll assume we all understand probablility and statistics here and say, not only does sample size matter here, but also the actual makeup of said sample group. Manufacturers what to keep upcoming models/prodcuts a secret until close to their release and as such... how can you survey a sample group? You can't... so they are going to try to use existing market data.. i.e. what the competition has and how well it sells. The problem with this "guesstimating" is that the competition's product is not your own. Meaning if we are comparing the BMW 3 series to the RX-8 and this sunroof issue... the 3-series simply has the headroom to have a sunroof when a 6 footer is driving, thus more people are likely to order it with a sunroof... no roof height issue.

Now the above is assuming that the decision makers are actually listening to whatever it is marketing/ product management has to say about said prodcut. For the Japanese market the sad truth is they often times don't listen. Even if the Japan product manager says that the market for said prodcut is not mature yet, and thus should not be sold, or little should be invested into putting it on the market in Japan, the US upper management will often push the prodcut on through anyway. Why? The reasons vary, but one you may often hear is that said product is a key part of the US marketing strategy and thus for worldwide conformity Japan must sell it as well. And then those same people complain when sales don't meet their targets.

Refering back to the country manager/ president example, if you hire a crappy leader, how can you expect the company to do well? Just because XX amount of revenue is being made which is reaching target, does not mean that the company is doing well. If the way of doing business was handled better it is very much conceivable that revenue could far exceed that original quote. For example... a goal of $10 is met and exceed by revenue of $15. This was achieved even though a lack of vision for the companies products in the local market and mismanagement is occuring. Thus the US managers are happy and no one is fired. However, if these issues were addressed the revenue could be $20 instead of $15. No one pays attention to the details and what's wrong as long as "the good times roll."

There is much more that can be said, but this isn't the place for that. Basically the point is it's nice to think that things work based upon ways to achieve the most sales and profit from the sales, but sadly it doesn't work that way in practice.

The above being said... did you know that all new cars are custom orders in Japan? Yep, there is no stock of new cars kept at the dealer except for the demos. Additionally the dealerships are all still owned by the manufacturer as it had been in the past in the US. So if everyone orders their car as they like it in Japan, why is it a problem to offer a sunroof as an option or as part of a package in Japan?

Originally posted by Japan8
The problems seen in this area are so many I don't know where to begin. I guess we start with the US-side. They have no understanding of the Japanese market, and seem to lose all common sense they use back in their home market...

What does the norm of American companies trying to sell in Japan have anything to do with Japanese companies selling in the US? American companies (particularly auto manufacturers) have met with very little success in trying to sell their products outside of North America. Some of the problems they have had have been due to incompetence and/or arrogance (and just bad decision making), but they have also been hamstrung by protectionist Japanese government policies. Whatever the reasons, though, US auto makers have not found a way to sell product in large numbers in Japan.

Japanese auto makers, OTOH, have had great success in the American market for over 30 years. While they've had some misses, overall, they have been very good at it, and are only getting better. Most Japanese auto makers now have design and production facilities in America that are designing and building cars that are only for the American market.

Regarding surveys and sample groups...Do Japanese auto makers not hold focus groups in the Japanese markets like they (and everyone else) do in the US markets long before new products are introduced? The sample sizes are small but usually present a very good and accurate cross section of the targeted demographic. The information gathered from these sessions is used with data collected about sales of competing/similar products and past history. Like I said before, they don't always get it right, but they are usually very, very close with only small tweaks required through the product cycle. Perhaps I overstepped in assuming that the same process was used in other markets as well? Still, the process is not without risk. There have been some famous failures. Recently, in the US market, the Chrysler Pacifica was initially offered with a higher level of standard trim than buyers wanted to pay for. When DC saw that the vehicles weren't selling, with the help of dealer feedback, a less expensive version was introduced that was not nearly as well appointed as the first ones. Once those started making it to dealer lots, they started to move (very aggressive incentives from DC haven't hurt either). Compare to a car like the RX-8 which has been selling close to Mazda's targets.

In the end, where is the incentive for them to change anything when they are already making their numbers?

Selling cars in Japan is my "WTF" that you responded to. I commented why does Mazda offer sunroofs on the RX-8 and Protege5 in the US, but not in Japan. So my response to your post has everything to do with that topic.

And enough hijacking this thread.... I'm moving this topic over to http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18818