Okay, let's discuss our UOA's.
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/54/l_a00c9ace4fca4a089f33382687524654.jpg

While not engine oil, the link to the BHR Eneos 75w-90 test is here (http://blackhaloracing.com/technical/fluid-tech/blackstone-labs-eneos-uoa/).

What about the ash?

Yeah I contacted Charles about some Eneos. I want some 0W-50.

What about the ash?

Not sure. I'm a little skeptical about the results though because my motor is not "new", but rebuilt.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143276&d=1249245814
http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143277&d=1249245814
http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143279&d=1249245814
http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=143278&d=1249245814
#1 havoline 10-30
2-havoline 10/40
3- castrol 10/40
4- shell diesel oil
1k mile change
see why i like diesel?
od

OD which of those 4 oils are mineral oils and which are synthetic?

they are all dino.
havoline is popular in this area and many also run the castrol.
the shell diesel is the Rotella name bran
I would like to see some syns posted.
OD

they are all dino.
havoline is popular in this area and many also run the castrol.
the shell diesel is the Rotella name bran
I would like to see some syns posted.
OD

I'll have some synthetic data but it's going to be a few thousand miles before I do.

Thanks for the info. I was curious because normally synthetics don't shear nearly as much as dino oil so that could have solved your low viscosity problem.

Mine is GC 0W-30. I already have a sample kit waiting for my next 3k oil change.

Yeah I want some 0W-50 Eneos too!

Here is a link to a post where I have posted several reports along with comments. Diesel oil rules!!!

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=147795

Not sure. I'm a little skeptical about the results though because my motor is not "new", but rebuilt.

It will be interesting to see a longer interval. I'm curious to see what happens to your fuel percentage, given your practice of allowing the car to idle up to temperature before driving.

As an aside, it would be worthwhile for people to report weather they do full or partial oil changes for any given report.

George

After my break in I did a max out oil change (got 5 quarts out)) from Mazda 5W-20 to GC 0W-30. Then I ran another 1500 miles and did another max out oil change (about 4.5 quarts this time). So this sample should have been all GC 0W-30. This time will be a full 3,000 mile OIC.

glad to have another diesel oil believer!
OD

Also, is anything over 15W diesel oil?

Here's another data point. The first two samples were using Castrol GTX 5w-20. The last one was 5w-30. The car was actually an '04.

Thanks man, I ran castrol 10W-30 in my second engine with 3,000 mile OIC and it lasted 72,000 with almost no premix.

I didnt know we could use diesel oil..

Yeah it's pretty commonly used (in rotaries and in Huge Dodge Trucks :yelrotflm).

Yeah it's pretty commonly used.

In regards to the RX8 I wouldn't count a group of less than 5 people common.

In regards to the RX8 I wouldn't count a group of less than 5 people common.


oh, I meant amongst rotaries in general!! Fixed.

diesel oil may be used more than some realize---? Maybe not by the rx8 gang.

From a well known engine builder:
Yes you can run diesel oil in gas engines.. In fact most performance guys has went fully to diesel oils now due to the EPA pulling the zinc out of pass. car oils.


high amounts of ZDDP is needed in flat tappet cam'ed engines (older, non roller cam)

Due to the lower ZDDP levels alot of people has wiped out a flat tappet cam lobe in their engines.

EPA is now messing with the diesel oils too.

The new pass car ARI rating is SM and it sucks as far as anti wear goes...

The new diesel oil API rating is CJ-4 even though its much lower in ZDDP than the CI-4 oils it still has much more zinc in it than the SM gas engine oils
Source(s):
Performance/Race engine builder, 12+ years

OD

So what specifically is diesel oil?

diesel oil is a better base stock with a different additive package---read on it.
OD

Thanks OD, found some good stuff on it, mainly Amsoil but I didn't realize it was so different.


Anyone else testing their oil?

Thank you for this thread! Looking forward to more results.

I'm in AZ and my first change on my '04 that I bought in June I used 10-40 Castrol GTX dino. After reading a thread with Olddragger's oil results, I did my next change to 15-40 diesel Rotella, which I'm still running. I'm probably switching to 10-40 Castrol GTX again next until I can do more reading on diesel oil in rotaries. I'm intrigued about the 0-50 synthetic, so I may eventually go that route with a Sohn adaptor. I don't have enough data yet, so that's why I'm so glad to see this thread. In addition to posting the scans of the results, it would be helpful to post the general ambient temps during the time that the oil was being run, as well as driving style, such as; is the car tracked, how often, daily redline?, octane of gas (which keeps the combustion chamber cooler when higher), etc.

No, diesel oil isn't defined by weight, but by the addition of extra detergents, and anti-foam agents.

In addition to posting the scans of the results, it would be helpful to post the general ambient temps during the time that the oil was being run...

One thing to keep in mind is the ambient temperature the oil is being ran in really doesn't have any importance outside of the minimum pour temperature the oil can handle. By that I mean that the only temperature that matters is the operational temperature of your motor. Now, that can be effected by ambient temps but overall your motor operates at the same standard temperature whether you're in Alaska or Arizona. The thermostat takes care of that.

There are some exceptions to this, but by in large your motor's interior environment stays the same. What would be important is if anyone ran their oil at excessive temperatures for part or all of it's life. That would be consistant with tracking the vehicle typically.

would it be relevent to include what air filtration set up you have?
OD

After reading a lot about air filtration I switched back to a WIX paper filter. The above UOA was while I was running my K&N. I have noticed no difference in terms of performance with the WIX and the filtration is better than the K&N.

My latest Oil Analysis. It's my car from new and has had oil changes with Castrol GTX 5W20 every 3000 miles + or - 300. This was my last change running this oil. I've switched to Amsoil 10W40 with two changes to get as much of the old stuff out as I could without tearing the car apart. We'll see how this plays out.

So far no leaks or issues from switching to synthetic, although I wouldn't think it to be an issue with 44k miles. I also premix with Idemitsu. Purolator PurOne oil filters used since first oil change after brand new.

Thanks for the info!! Why the drastic switch if everything looks good?

After seeing several failed engine teardowns and as I learn more and more about this engine, I decided to switch to a 10W40. I don't track my car, and don't plan on any MAJOR performance upgrades. Just spirited enthusiast driving. My interests lie in longevity, and I feel the switch will prolong the first of engine rebuilds for me. I really enjoy this car and don't see myself getting rid of it (not my daily driver), in fact it's opened the door for me into the rotary world which I'd like to pursue as a hobby. Not for racing so much, but for restoration and collecting.

As for Amsoil, I've seen several occasions of religious use of their motor oil from day 1 brand new engines that are now 20 years old (or more) with amazing results. The RX was my first brand new car I bought and I wish at the time I knew all I've learned about rotary's over the past few years..I would've used this oil then. I definitely don't mind paying a little more for a quality oil. Plus the company was started by a fighter pilot, how can you argue with that conclusive piece of scientific data!?

No doubt Amsoil is a great product.

And my apologies I don't have a more precise reasoning behind it like you're looking for with this thread. I figure we all cant be experts at everything all the time always:-) When checking through oil data sheets I just know what numbers are supposed to be high, which are supposed to be low, and compare them with others...couldnt tell you exactly what they mean or fully understand them.

All I can do is contribute what i know and put it out there for others to form their own conclusions. As much as the CONSTRUCTIVE posters in this forum have taught me about this hobby, its the least I can do. I'm very interested to see as more people post their test results in the future. Next one for me maybe later than sooner seeing how the RX is sadly about to go into winter storage.

Most of the time constant discussion leads to a bit of education. Thanks.

Checking through all the other sheets I am starting to be curious about my sodium level. Mine's WAY higher than the highest I've seen on here so far, which makes me wonder about possibly having a coolant leak. The Antifreeze % = 0 though. we'll see what kind of values I get next oil change.

Wow, look at your sodium compared to mine. You should call them and see what they say.

This service is turning out to be even cooler!

I just got off the phone with the lab and after I asked why my engine is showing much more sodium than my peers with the same engine, he said Castrol GTX uses more sodium in their additive, along with...I think he said Valvoline. He then compared my results with others with the same engine running the SAME oil, and have similar higher levels of sodium. He was saying he can go in and compare results using a whole bunch of different parameters.

If it were coolant, levels of other things like potassium would be higher as well.

This is definitely a neat service!

That much more sodium? I ran nothing but Castrol GTX 10W-30 in my second engine (Lasted 72,000) but I never had a UOA done. It's a very good oil but I should have done double changes every other oil change and had a UOA done.

Here's my latest report. I got the car at 15,000 miles so I can't speak to what oil was used before then.

I'm using Purolator filters for air and oil, and Castrol GTX 10W30 oil. I do run 3 oz per tank of premix on the street. I do the dance with the floor jack to try and get as much out as possible. This change has at least two full track days and maybe an autocross, not to mention street driving at supra-legal speeds...

Note I don't get every change tested. Depends on whether I remember to have the sample bottle ready. There was one done before this one at about a 2500-mile interval.

Went for a longer change interval on this one than I intended, but appears to be no ill effects. Blackstone loves to keep pushing me to longer change intervals.

I don't idle the car and I don't do city driving, so the fuel level is something to watch.

Good report for a non synthetic, my second engine lasted 73k with Castrol GTX 10W-30 but no premix. It's a good oil but that viscosity is not so great IMO. My GC was 9.2 and that was bad, it should be at 10.5 or higher from what I have seen. I wouldn't go longer.

I did my single oil cooler install the weekend and when I drained the oil I forgot to get a sample so now I will wait again until the next one. Since I did the cooler install I got ever last drip of oil out and switched to Mobil1 0W-40.

Good report for a non synthetic, my second engine lasted 73k with Castrol GTX 10W-30 but no premix.

But why did your engine fail? What broke?

It's a good oil but that viscosity is not so great IMO. My GC was 9.2 and that was bad, it should be at 10.5 or higher from what I have seen. I wouldn't go longer.

Note that it's still higher than the factory-spec 5W20. Mazda is warranting the engine for 100,000 miles, so unless they expect to replace every 2004-8 engine at least once it can't be that bad, can it?

And for synthetic vs. AmPurple vs. TypaR oil Believers that think a fancy oil will do more than just plain old oil and regular maintenance:
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2499530&postcount=23
Start at post 21 if you want the background.

But why did your engine fail? What broke?



Note that it's still higher than the factory-spec 5W20. Mazda is warranting the engine for 100,000 miles, so unless they expect to replace every 2004-8 engine at least once it can't be that bad, can it?

And for synthetic vs. AmPurple vs. TypaR oil Believers that think a fancy oil will do more than just plain old oil and regular maintenance:
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2499530&postcount=23
Start at post 21 if you want the background.


I am on my third engine, all replaced under the 100k warranty. The first failed at 22k, the second at 96k (close call). Since they were replaced under warranty I never got to see why they failed. But seeing has I never skimped on oil changes I will count the first one up to the faulty OMP rate in the first flash combined with crappy 5W-20 in 100F+ weather here in south Texas. I believe the second one lasted due to the use of the better Castrol GTX 10W-30 but eventually died due to the lack of lubrication on the center of the apex seal because I did not premix until the end.

I didn't mean that the viscosity was bad with your Castrol GTX just that the higher the better in terms of protection under load. I do believe we can use a decent Dino oil but it will have to be changed more often and gives less room for error. I use synthetic because I am using the SOHN adapter to inject clean premix so my engine is not burning motor oil. I am also premixing the gas with Lucas UCL so I think this motor should see 100k without issue despite the punishing track days.

As far as the engine warranty, well, they don't expect to replace every one but they have replaced a huge percentage of the motors. Honestly the motor is just flawed by design due to the missing oil injector and a separate reservoir to inject clean premix. But I do understand that an average owner is not going to premix gas let alone add premix to a separate reservoir.

Oh, and I just removed my factory dual coolers and replaced them with a large single Fluidyne unit and an Oil cooler thermostat because I believe oil temps and lower oil pressures (huge increase in the 09's) are a major issue as well.

Bump! Post em' up fellas or email me the .pdf and I will post them. networkplus.scott@gmail.com

You know it still blows me away why people talk about oil. Correct me if I'm wrong however the demise of normal engine operation is not oil related---it's carbon buildup related with the apex seals and springs.

Carbon buildup from the crappy stock oil injection. Disconnect the pump and add 1 oz/gallon and you're good to go.

Another thing that I'm perplexed about---all this oil analysis. I thought the rationale behind the analysis (from drag and high hp motor markets----at least what they do here in Indy) is to examine the metal content and determine where the metal is coming from (bearing, rings, other). From there you pull apart the motor and make improvements. Nobody seams to be doing this.

????

Is this a warm fuzzy thread? Apologies for being direct but what are we trying to learn here?

Perplexed........

You know it still blows me away why people talk about oil. Correct me if I'm wrong however the demise of normal engine operation is not oil related---it's carbon buildup related with the apex seals and springs.

Carbon buildup from the crappy stock oil injection. Disconnect the pump and add 1 oz/gallon and you're good to go.

Another thing that I'm perplexed about---all this oil analysis. I thought the rationale behind the analysis (from drag and high hp motor markets----at least what they do here in Indy) is to examine the metal content and determine where the metal is coming from (bearing, rings, other). From there you pull apart the motor and make improvements. Nobody seams to be doing this.

????

Is this a warm fuzzy thread? Apologies for being direct but what are we trying to learn here?

Perplexed........


I'd say some of us are hunting for the best way to ensure our engines last the longest in whatever our respective uses are (autox, street, turbo'd..etc.). Its apparent with premix or SOHN adapter or not that the recommended 5w20 just doesn't cut it. Its interesting to see just exactly how the oils held up over whatever mileage someone has posted with their analysis, and helps in deciding what oils may or may not be better for this engine.

You're right in that the major fault in this engine is oil delivery, however not so much carbon build up but from wear from poor lubrication. All the pre-2009 engines are having oil directly delivered to the outer area of the apex seals, and not the middle, for an example. I think our consensus here is to find out what set up best equates to promoting longevity of these engines before failure; This particular thread dealing with oil. The different oil analysis being posted don't only show metals and minerals, but also viscosities and flashpoints after normal usage.

Also I'd say it feeds some of our "science geek" tendencies :)

I'd say some of us are hunting for the best way to ensure our engines last the longest in whatever our respective uses are (autox, street, turbo'd..etc.). Its apparent with premix or SOHN adapter or not that the recommended 5w20 just doesn't cut it. Its interesting to see just exactly how the oils held up over whatever mileage someone has posted with their analysis, and helps in deciding what oils may or may not be better for this engine.

You're right in that the major fault in this engine is oil delivery, however not so much carbon build up but from wear from poor lubrication. All the pre-2009 engines are having oil directly delivered to the outer area of the apex seals, and not the middle, for an example. I think our consensus here is to find out what set up best equates to promoting longevity of these engines before failure; This particular thread dealing with oil. The different oil analysis being posted don't only show metals and minerals, but also viscosities and flashpoints after normal usage.

Also I'd say it feeds some of our "science geek" tendencies :)

What is the agreed upon hypothesis on what "wear from poor lubrication" is? Rotor housing wear? Seal wear? Other?

That would be an area you could get a lot of info on from the Mazmart (and other) engine autopsy threads. I know that they have seen excessive eccentric shaft bearing wear in a lot of engines. I'm not sure what their stance is on the longevity of stationary gears and other non-seal internals. Even if it's an apex that blows your engine, you'd hope to be able to reuse as much of the internals (minus seals/rings/gaskets) as possible.

Oil injection/premix/anything in the intake track is one issue. The performance of the oil that is cooling the engine and lubricating the internals is another. If one were to nail down the premix fluid and quantity to a fine science only to see eccentric bearing failure, you wouldn't have netted much of a result.

Really, this thread isn't about apex seal wear or injected oil/premix at all.

My purpose is to just to see how different oil are performing in different Renesis engines in different environments. I also realize that these tests can be somewhat unreliable but when doing them regularly I think you get a basic picture of what is going on. For me the GC 0W-30 was highly taught-ed yet did not perform so well for me. I am patiently awaiting my report of my Mobil1 0W-40.

And yes, it does stimulate the geek in me as well :)

Geek stimuli can never be overrated. I read threads with any kind of data whether I consider it useful or not.

That would be an area you could get a lot of info on from the Mazmart (and other) engine autopsy threads. I know that they have seen excessive eccentric shaft bearing wear in a lot of engines. I'm not sure what their stance is on the longevity of stationary gears and other non-seal internals. Even if it's an apex that blows your engine, you'd hope to be able to reuse as much of the internals (minus seals/rings/gaskets) as possible.

Oil injection/premix/anything in the intake track is one issue. The performance of the oil that is cooling the engine and lubricating the internals is another. If one were to nail down the premix fluid and quantity to a fine science only to see eccentric bearing failure, you wouldn't have netted much of a result.

Really, this thread isn't about apex seal wear or injected oil/premix at all.

No, it's not. It's about the oil, plain and simple. Issues with oil delivery (or lack there of) will be there whether someone uses the right oil or not. Regardless, the discussion in this thread is about oil that'll maintain its lubricating properties the best in this engine in the posted environments. Compiling a "database", as unscientific as it may be, definitely doesn't hurt to compare exactly how different types and brands of oil are behaving.

eric--glad you came in
several "things" have already been discovered for street driven cars.
1--oil viscosity is NOT holding with the 20-30 wgt oils and with some 40 w oils. They are searing down to one step below (40 to 30,, 30--20 etc) in as little as 1K miles. csct's are below 3.6 for some oils.
2- fuel dilution--can be a problem with short drives and idling warm ups--short drives in my case is 12 miles!! It is very important to get the oil temps up as with cooler ambient temps a lot of people are never seeing oil temps over 160F (open road driving).my last one on a 2K change fuel dilution wa 1.8%--not real high but high enough to affect my viscosity and i am runnig deisel oil!
3- there is abnormal front stationary gear bearing wear in a LOT of engines. Seemingly visocosity related. It is advised to run no lower than a 40W oil--but then again some 40 wgt oils sear fast. So uoa can identify which are holding up and which arent.
olddragger

Yes and I should add that the viscosity numbers were low with the GC 0W-30 I was running and that was only after 1500 miles. After 3,000 miles it would have been much worse.

eric--glad you came in
several "things" have already been discovered for street driven cars.
1--oil viscosity is NOT holding with the 20-30 wgt oils and with some 40 w oils. They are searing down to one step below (40 to 30,, 30--20 etc) in as little as 1K miles. csct's are below 3.6 for some oils.
2- fuel dilution--can be a problem with short drives and idling warm ups--short drives in my case is 12 miles!! It is very important to get the oil temps up as with cooler ambient temps a lot of people are never seeing oil temps over 160F (open road driving).my last one on a 2K change fuel dilution wa 1.8%--not real high but high enough to affect my viscosity and i am runnig deisel oil!
3- there is abnormal front stationary gear bearing wear in a LOT of engines. Seemingly visocosity related. It is advised to run no lower than a 40W oil--but then again some 40 wgt oils sear fast. So uoa can identify which are holding up and which arent.
olddragger



1. Is it normal for viscosity breakdown in non-rotary engines/are we thinking that this is a problem? Perhaps all oils do this? Just like all milk will ultimately spoil.
2. Don't understand
3. Is this wear the root cause of engine failure? In otherwords is this the one thing that if fixed will make your engine last longer?

I understand the purpose of the thread and I sincerely hope I'm not changing the subject (which I probably am) however something tells (I'm probably wrong) that all this data collection is being done so that people can choose a more optimum oil and therefore make there engines last longer prior to thier demise/need for additional service.

Merry X everyone

I think most engines currently fail now due to low compression - too much heat, too much friction, too much carbon. There are plenty of people blowing up engines in other ways but I guess that could be described as the difference between the motor failing and the user breaking the motor. However, as engines are getting up there in miles people who have had good luck with their premixing, heat, and carbon might start seeing new modes of failure. Engine autopsies seem to indicate that while part A gave first, part B may not have been far behind.

Personally I am on my third Renny despite meticulous oil change intervals and maintenance so I am looking for every little piece of info that may help me to increase the longevity of this engine.

Eric
fuel dilution= blow by and yes some cars are getting enough of this that there is a need to keep an eye on it if you want a 100K engine. I think its mostly driving style and low oil tempt that may be adding to this. Idling until the oil/coolant is "warm" may not be something that you need to do. car runs very rich at cold start idle. Maybe idle just for a few seconds then drive at no higher than 3K rpm with a very little load may be a better way of warming?
bad injectors and poor "crancase" ventilation. can also cause this as you probably know.
2- the rotary seems to sear oil faster than recips--reasons i really dont know--maybe wide babitts and close tolerances?
3- the front stationary gear bearing is going through the copper in as little as 50K. MY THERORY is that if the e shaft has a "wobble" anywhere then that will affect everything.Even rotor stressors/movement. Just my theory, but I KNOW on recips if a main bearing allows wobble then you have big trouble.
enjoy your input as always----Travis did a good picture of you---you aint that good looking!
OD

1. Is it normal for viscosity breakdown in non-rotary engines/are we thinking that this is a problem? Perhaps all oils do this? Just like all milk will ultimately spoil.
2. Don't understand
3. Is this wear the root cause of engine failure? In otherwords is this the one thing that if fixed will make your engine last longer?

I understand the purpose of the thread and I sincerely hope I'm not changing the subject (which I probably am) however something tells (I'm probably wrong) that all this data collection is being done so that people can choose a more optimum oil and therefore make there engines last longer prior to thier demise/need for additional service.

Merry X everyone

The RX8Club has become quite the family and or group of friends. It's all about communication and there are many things that people enjoy chatting about. Our cars provide a focal point of common interest.

Oil related issues are not the main cause of engine failures but oil related problems have been identified in a great number of engines. Viscosity breaks down in every type of engine but rotaries do have their own peculiaralities. These types of tests provide information that is useless to some and helpful to others. Just as you pointed out, we can look for signs of deterioration like copper content and other such things.

Paul.

Merry Christmas Paul!
Got the 09 tranny in but it was late before i finished--pilot bearing was shot due too my main shaft play and it put us behind---way behind. So i didnt get to come by. I think i was hallucinating on the way home:) at 2am.

I will forward my 1st uoa to you later. Glad I did it--believe my driving style needs to change and i need to get my oil temps higher than they are. Nothing really abnormal--like wear associated with new engine breakin- but my viscosity even with the.deisel oil was lower than it should have been.
OD
OD

I'm getting oil analysis done to verify my oil is doing it's job of keeping the metal bits from rubbing each other the wrong way. I am tracking the snot out of this car (and hoon it around on the street too), so I want to be aware of unusual wear as early as possible. If the bad metals take a big jump in a report, I'll know that I've overdone it and it's time to get another engine built before catastrophic failure. I'm not getting it done to choose the optimum oil (oil is oil) beyond maybe adjusting the viscosity I use.

And yes, there is some data geek in me that loves spreadsheets...

i sure have learned something---get the oil temps up during everyday driving and dont warm up by idle.
OD

i sure have learned something---get the oil temps up during everyday driving and dont warm up by idle.
OD

I've been saying that for years; get in and drive :).

Paul.

2- the rotary seems to sear oil faster than recips--reasons i really dont know--maybe wide babitts and close tolerances?


Stationary gearset loves to shear oils simply from the pressure, hence me recommending the 50w users perhaps try the specialist Millers oil designed for the Mini, as that also shared it's engine oil with the gearbox, under similar conditions, and has a great EP package as a result.
I'll have a word with the rep. when he comes around and see if it's possible for them to tweak a lower viscosity version for us.

i have now blocked both oil coolers (mornings in ga in the 30'sF and warms to the 50's during the day) in efforts to get my oil temps up to 180-200 during my 10-12 mile commute to work.
It helped. It was 36F this morning, warm up was quick-and I got to 180 on the interstate and 185 once in the city. Coolant was 170F or so.
At this point I dont know what else to do--maybe wrap the coolers? Not just block them?
OD

I am going to try and block mine and see what a diff it makes. It's been in the 30's here in the morning too. I noticed some froth on my dipstick when I checked the oil on my road trip and the engine and oil was still hot.

Stationary gearset loves to shear oils simply from the pressure, hence me recommending the 50w...

The problem with that logic is the heavier viscosity oils shear much much faster when running at high RPMs and high load.

Edit:

The UOA collection for the Eneos 75w-90 is available here (http://blackhaloracing.com/technical/fluid-tech/blackstone-labs-eneos-uoa/) as well.

I'm not recommending a 50w, I'm recommending that those that do use a 50w, try the millers and report back ;)

Personally, I'm sticking with 30w myself.

i think most of us that use 50w is for track only then it is changed out for a 40W?
Doesnt the brand of oil also make a difference in shearing--diesel does not shear as readily as regular engine oil for example?
od

I'm not recommending a 50w, I'm recommending that those that do use a 50w, try the millers and report back ;)

Personally, I'm sticking with 30w myself.

Touche' Phill! I realize I'm being pretty stereotypical with some of my information but I simply don't have the luxary of testing out all these oils. I'm seriously insane about this stuff enough that if I could I certainly would. Posting these UOA's is a great idea and I hope more people post up whatever oils they use whether the experience is postive or negative.

i think most of us that use 50w is for track only then it is changed out for a 40W?
Doesnt the brand of oil also make a difference in shearing--diesel does not shear as readily as regular engine oil for example?
od

The brand is iffy but certainly the base stock is going to make a difference. Since synthetics use much less VI's you're going to seriously reduce shearing. VI's are the largest molecules so they are the first to go.

Without getting to much into the science since it's off topic I'm starting to actually think that people should be using a thinner (GASP!) oil on the track then they should be on the street. The only major deal breaker would be the oil temperature. Assuming your oil temps are not out of control on the track, the theory holds true. Even still, a thinner oil will flow easier and shed heat better.

Look up information on the hydrodynamic wedge. The short of it is higher RPM's and or bearing speed actually increases your film thickness instead of thinning it like typical judgement would dictate. The Stribeck curve confirms this. As RPM's increase you move from a boundry layer or mixed lubrication into the hydrodynamic region. Since track conditions involve mostly high RPM's it would explain why race motors don't have the same bearing problems that street cars do.

Running a thicker oil on the track won't do any harm but it will greatly increase fluid drag which, in races like the koni challenge, mean losing a few precious horsepower that people with RX8's need.

i have now blocked both oil coolers (mornings in ga in the 30'sF and warms to the 50's during the day) in efforts to get my oil temps up to 180-200 during my 10-12 mile commute to work.
It helped. It was 36F this morning, warm up was quick-and I got to 180 on the interstate and 185 once in the city. Coolant was 170F or so.
At this point I dont know what else to do--maybe wrap the coolers? Not just block them?
OD

I'm assuming you do not have an oil thermostat in your system? We have found these to be critical to get to a good operating range. Too big of an oil cooler size/solution (we refer to ours as Pizza boxes) are so effective you get too much cooling---130F max on a late fall/winter/early spring track day. An oil thermo is not as restrictive as we thought (doesn't make the engine run too hot. Our big oil cooler w/oil thermo runs about 185 F all the time. Hot or cold. Something to think about. The "tape" thing can be a "put more on, take some off, put more, take some off" effort.

only have the oem one--which i seriously question. I am beginning to think that an aftermarket may be an option to my mentopausal engine.
Right now with both coolers blocked (front side only) I do get well into the 180's most of the time.
I am getting less milky stuff now and have decided to do 2K mile oil change with a filter change every other time. Still using deisel. I will do uoa on every change for the time being.
I can actually get a tad over 4.5 quarts out by parking on a hill and using an evacuator.
Or use ramps and evac.
OD

OD have you seen the RB oil line kit? I wonder if it will help with pressure and flow while retaining the factory thermos (if you can call them that).

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

Funny they say replacing these should be done when the engine is out, it's really not that big of a deal to do with pre made lines. The hardest part for me was cutting, fitting, and adjusting the lines since everything was custom.

Oh, and the price for that kits is ridiculous. You could make those using the best hose and fittings for $200.00 or less.

saw them and at present not interested for that price!
Flash--understand what you are saying and i am certainly seeing the value of used oil analysis.
One of the reasons i like the diesel oil is the higher resistance to shearing. i have been told by someone that works in that business that diesel oils are really as good as some so called synthetics.
I dont know all the tech--i read== but what info do you believe--right?
Running the lightest viscosity oil that meets your engine needs is the best way to go--no doubt. That also goes for the trans and diff:)
Trick is -----finding that right viscosity/oil.
I will be changing oil q 2 K now until i can get a better look as to what is going on.
OD

Yeah they are crazy expensive but there may be better solutions soon.

Finally got my 0w-20 UOA back! I also had a TBN performed to see how long this oil could be ran. It certainly looks like a 4,000 mile oil but because my sample method was piss poor I'm questioning some of the results.

My comments for this report and all my other blogs are here (http://flashwing.blackhaloracing.com/).

http://flashwing.blackhaloracing.com/files/2009/12/blackstone0w20.JPG

wow dude--maybe some thinking to do? are you running a k&n filter?
oil holding up ok but i rather have more phos and zinc in it?
OD

wow dude--maybe some thinking to do? are you running a k&n filter?
oil holding up ok but i rather have more phos and zinc in it?
OD

No I am running an AEM dryflow air filter with the sock attached to it. Although it's been some time since I checked the clamps to make sure it wasn't loose. I am willing to bet the sample picked up some particles on the oil pan itself.

I was honestly expecting this sample to be crap so it's anyone's guess. I'll check it out to be on the safe side but hopefully the next sample will show much different results.

so your filter is outside the engine bay--right?
AEM should be ok-shouldnt it?
Hate to see that bro--those puzzles can be a real challenge.
i hear that shop vac filters wrapped around the cone filter helps-- i have one on mine!
OD

so your filter is outside the engine bay--right?
AEM should be ok-shouldnt it?
Hate to see that bro--those puzzles can be a real challenge.
i hear that shop vac filters wrapped around the cone filter helps-- i have one on mine!
OD

The filters are good for 20,000 miles but it's possible I might need to order another one. Still, a blocked filter element and one letting dirt through is totally different. It will just require me to remove the bumper and check everything out. It might give me an excuse to do some other work I need to take care of.

I'm not too concerned. This motor has about 30,000 more miles left before it gets rebuilt anyway.

What is Molybdenum? It's like 400 higher than it was in my UOA. They said my silicon was high but yours was twice as high as mine. Weird.

Also taking the sample from the oil pan as its draining is okay according to Blackstone. You said you dripped it from the pan bolt?

Also, just my thoughts but you said when you switched oils you may have left a quart or two of RP in even though you drained the coolers and I highly doubt that because when I removed my stock coolers there was only a little under a quart of oil between the two of them and all the lines. There is not as much oil still in the system as people claim there is. When I drained the oil to install the single cooler the car was on jack stands as usual. I thought there woudl be much more oil in the lines, etc. But the fact is that there just wasn't because we actually used a empty quart of Mobil1 so we would have a good measure of just how much was in the coolers and lines.

You normally see it as molybdenum di-sulphide in CN grease, it's a high pressure lubricant, the sulphur providing the cushioning properties as it does in titanium di-oxide, which is starting to creep in more now the price for it is getting closer to moly.
However, seeing as there's no suphur in that breakdown, it's possibly in the form of molybdenum phosphate, which helps with wear, especially at startup as it can be made to cling ionically, and provides good corrosion protection, or molybdenum-enhanced urethane, which is the more normal form, but unless I'm reading it wrong there's not enough of the rest of the required elements for it all to be contained as such.

yea moly is not bad stuff--just different oils have different additive packages. Diesel oil for example has very little moly but a LOT more zinc and phos.
OD

Ah hah, good to know. Can't wait to get my UOA to see how my Mobil1 0W-40 held up.

yea moly is not bad stuff--just different oils have different additive packages. Diesel oil for example has very little moly but a LOT more zinc and phos.
OD

Zinc and phosphorous are the two that the EPA have attacked as being catalyst killers. We know that they are wear inhibitors.

Paul.

How important is zinc to the Renesis as opposed to regular engines? How important is it to regular engines? I have only heard it referenced in issues with specialized valve trains.

I noticed that in the Eneos oils that the lower weights are ILSAC GF4, but that the 0W50 is not. That is one of the reasons i had stayed with Mobil1 0W40 in my last car because they hadn't taken out the zinc.

Ah hah, good to know. Can't wait to get my UOA to see how my Mobil1 0W-40 held up.

Is it in yet? I've been running diesel, but I'm wary of it now that I know that it's high in zinc and phosphorous since I don't run a SOHN. The Euro Mobil1 would be my next choice since it covers cold starts and would hold the 40 viscosity better from shearing since it's full syn and starts with a 40 weight base. Has anyone used this oil long term on a Renesis? I remember reading in a couple of other threads that Mobil1 specifically was a syn oil that was to be avoided with rotaries, but I think that was the North American faux-syn oil.

As a 57 year old Exxon Oil distributor, IMO that any major Sm spec oil or any oil made since 1970 will get maximum miles outta your renesis. Yeah, I've done Blackstone lab analysis, but it's mostly to tell you if you have excess dirt, antifreeze leak, or excess fuel.
My favorite oil is Mobil 1 0w40 changed at 5,000 miles, but, diesel oil 5w40 TDT of Mobil, Shell, Chevron, or Exxon is probably good also. Flat tappet cam engines or other cams are way harder to lubricate.

I had a 1973 Rx3 that I kept balls to the wall on 110 mph cruises with Exxon Uniflo 10w40. After a few years and 75,000 miles the water seals on the housings started seeping so I'd have to take out the plugs and heat in the oven to restart. Never was stranded. I bet it could've driven for months, all over U.S. as long as engine never cooled overnight. Imagine how you can over heat side housings without cool down stroke of 4 stroke.

The second engine went half those miles because I lowered my rear gears 10% and was driving 7000 rpm (that models redline) for 30 minutes in 100+ degree weather, and one apex seal blew with instant blub blub like hot cam. I even restarted it to drive to get used Rx4 engine. Those engines had oil flow into the carburetor with what seemed like 1,000 mile quart use for me, but in hindsight I think I would put in a few oz 2 stroke motorcycle oil in each 12 gallon fill.

I have not got my UOA yet but it should not be long now. Check out this spreadsheet of my MPG that I have been keeping track of since November. Notice how the MPG varies so much. There are a couple of highway road trips in there where you see the MPG bump up and teh space with no data is because i lost the damn receipt.
http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/145/l_67b9f008a9004383997742cd3131ec38.jpg

I pay Double that for GAS/Petrol...took $80.00 AU on Tuesday for 58 Litres...or $74.00 US Dollars!!!...

We in Australia are being RIPPED OFF by the Oil Companies...

We in Australia are being RIPPED OFF by the New Car Companies...

We in Australia we are MUGS (Fools, Dopes) for Putting up with it...

Holy crap!!! That's expensive. Keep in mind that all of these fill-ups are on Shell 93 octane, I do not fill-up with anything else.

If you notice, I actually found it for $2.53 a gallon, that was a treat.

I pay Double that for GAS/Petrol...took $80.00 AU on Tuesday for 58 Litres...or $74.00 US Dollars!!!...

We in Australia are being RIPPED OFF by the Oil Companies...

We in Australia are being RIPPED OFF by the New Car Companies...

We in Australia we are MUGS (Fools, Dopes) for Putting up with it...


Aw dear, it must be terrible, try it at $1.80 per liter...especially when it does 0.35l/km

Holy Shite, and I was crying a couple of summers ago when it was like $55-60 to fill-up my ride.

Holy Shite, and I was crying a couple of summers ago when it was like $55-60 to fill-up my ride.
A 58 ltr. tankfill in the Netherlands costs USD 120,-
1 Ltr. Shell 5w30 synthetic oil costs approx USD 28,50............
At last but not at least...............latest price early 2009 of the 231hp Renesis was USD 81.500.-...........due to horrible "luxury"- and CO2 taxes...........
Only 350 RX 8's are running in the Netherlands (18.5 million inhabitants)............
Mazada-Netherlands skipped the new RX 8 in the course of 2009 from their salesprogramme since it is unaffordable with those taxes........

Best regards, Ruud

Aw dear, it must be terrible, try it at $1.80 per liter...especially when it does 0.35l/km

Yes, but your distance to travel is very small compared to USA or Australia.

Isn't it funny how oil companies "scale" their Oil Prices...

Generally, small countries, higher prices, large countries (land mass) lower prices..

Isnt most of the difference usually because of taxes?

Yes, but your distance to travel is very small compared to USA or Australia.


That depends how far you drive each day, I used to do 4 hours of commuting per day, 5-6 if the traffic was bad...

ever heard of technology suppression? The present day guys will maximize profit on what they have before they will allow new tecnology to be produced. We have not gotten to that point yet with oil. Probably wont in my lifetime. But my grandchildren will be driving something totally different.
OD

As a 57 year old Exxon Oil distributor, IMO that any major Sm spec oil or any oil made since 1970 will get maximum miles outta your renesis. Yeah, I've done Blackstone lab analysis, but it's mostly to tell you if you have antifreeze leak or excess fuel. My favorite oil is Mobil 1 0w40 changed at 5,000 miles, but, diesel oil 5w40 TDT of Mobil, Shell, Chevron, or Exxon is probably good also. Flat tappet cam engines or other cams are way harder to lubricate. I had a 1973 Rx3 that I kept balls to the wall on 110 mph cruises with Exxon Uniflo 10w40. After a few years and 75,000 miles the water seals on the housings started seeping so I'd have to take out the plugs and heat in the oven to restart. Never was stranded. I bet it could've driven for months, all over U.S. as long as engine never cooled overnight. Imagine how you can over heat side housings without cool down stroke of 4 stroke. The second engine went half those miles because I lowered my rear gears 10% and was driving 7000 rpm (that models redline) for 30 minutes in 100+ degree weather, and one apex seal blew with instant blub blub like hot cam. I even restarted it to drive to get used Rx4 engine. Those engines had oil flow into the carburetor with what seemed like 1,000 mile quart use for me, but in hindsight I think I would put in a few oz 2 stroke motorcycle oil in each 12 gallon fill.

Sorry, I couldn't resist :)

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2009/3/18/633729578935529910-paragraphs.jpg

Moly additives are for extreme metal sliding and vibration that might be encountered in machinery and in car camshafts. Zinc and phosphorus react under heat as first line of anti-wear defense for sliding parts like camshafts, and moly would be second line of defense. We sold moly grease for pivot points, but if you used for bearing repack it could plate out on bearing runs like mud and run tight. Also, the sulfer in moly disulphide grease would eat rubber ball joint seals. I believe the moly compound in motor oil is different without the sulfer, so its ok if deposit control has been tested by refinery, but not necessary with RX8's nice big bearings.

Diesel engine oil has the better additives for soot control so they are usuallly best for any combustion engine.

The #1 reason for rotary failure is apex seal wear, carbon accumulation, and holding steady high rpm like 8,000 for a few minutes. My 2007 RX8 only uses 1/2 quart in 2000 miles, so I premix approx 4oz per fillup with Mobil 2t motorcycle oil which I stocked up on because they discontinued. That makes about 2/3's of seal lubricant my premix and 1/3 the Mobil 1 syn 0w40.

Two stroke motorcycles can have real bad exhaust port clogging so refiners have done lots of testing on oils that burn clean. I'm thinking thats what I want to lubricate and sweep out burned oil ash in my rotary. I think Castrol has 2t also.

That depends how far you drive each day, I used to do 4 hours of commuting per day, 5-6 if the traffic was bad...

Well derr!!!...

Yeah and a 4 hour commute can be 20 or 400 KMS
Forget it mate..you don't want to see what I am saying...typical POM ;)

Isnt most of the difference usually because of taxes?

I most countires that is found not to be the case..
Here about a third is Tax..

Well derr!!!...

Yeah and a 4 hour commute can be 20 or 400 KMS
Forget it mate..you don't want to see what I am saying...typical POM ;)


The car's probably using just as much fuel if you're doing 5mph in rushhour traffic for 30 miles as it is on a long 60mph cruise for 100 miles....


Just because the country is bigger doesn't mean people travel for longer :yelrotflm

And to think I used to complain spending $400.00 a month on gas when I was doing an 80 mile a day commute. In your country it would have been $1200.00 a month :crying:

REDRX3RX8 was kind enough to share his UOA, take a look.
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/146/l_d90d0e20c3e744b383907642a7d2ef73.jpg

Interesting. Did anyone post results of dino diesel 15w40 oil with 3k+ miles? I saw that OD posted his results which held the viscosities in range, but that was only with 1k miles.

Also, is anyone running Mobil's synthetic diesel? What is the viscosity range, and is it a full "real" syn?

No but all UOA's are welcome and appreciated. Mine has been sent, I should get it soon.

Oh, really?

What range viscosity do you want? Do you want the 7 to 8cst@ 100C of 5w20 or the 15 to 16cst @ 100c of 20w50? Yeah, Mobil 1 0w40 spec sheet says approx 14cst@100c, but thats just candy and nuts, and the specs show way over a 10w30. My report still had a some 5w20 and the usual fuel dump even though I was real careful to heat up car before sampling.

People that bring up (didn't stay in range) are have 40 year old info from Andy Granatelli selling STP viscosity improver. These new 0w oils get the weight from good chemistry buildup not just throwing in extra vi improver which can cause hard carbon.

Your knee seems a little jerky.

Oh, really?

What range viscosity do you want? Do you want the 7 to 8cst@ 100C of 5w20 or the 15 to 16cst @ 100c of 20w50? Yeah, Mobil 1 0w40 spec sheet says approx 14cst@100c, but thats just candy and nuts, and the specs show way over a 10w30. My report still had a some 5w20 and the usual fuel dump even though I was real careful to heat up car before sampling.

People that bring up (didn't stay in range) are have 40 year old info from Andy Granatelli selling STP viscosity improver. These new 0w oils get the weight from good chemistry buildup not just throwing in extra vi improver which can cause hard carbon.

Your knee seems a little jerky.

This isn't the first UOA that I've seen showing the Mobile1 0w-40 thins out to a high 30w oil from the 40w range. Sure the fuel dilution didn't help but overall this oil does seem to lose a bit of it's viscosity over time.

Still, when we're talking about 1 to 2 cSt of viscosity loss that's really not a huge deal. Even less when you're looking at that loss occurring over 4,000 miles of use.

As for Diesel oil...just remember that oil choice comes down to application. You can run just about anything off the shelf in your motor and you'll be ok but some stuff is simply a better fit for how you use the car.

sorta like asking what car is best---well it depends. Use the uoa to develop your trend--dont take just a single reading.
uoa can be tricky.
OD

Interesting. Did anyone post results of dino diesel 15w40 oil with 3k+ miles? I saw that OD posted his results which held the viscosities in range, but that was only with 1k miles.

Also, is anyone running Mobil's synthetic diesel? What is the viscosity range, and is it a full "real" syn?

Take a look at my analysis I had done on 15W40 with 3k on it. It still was within range. There is a link to my post on the first page of this thread.

Take a look at my analysis I had done on 15W40 with 3k on it. It still was within range. There is a link to my post on the first page of this thread.

Dang dude, I missed that post. Thanks!!

Care to share your driving habits? Viscosity is low.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=121772&d=1212701531

This uoa is from your 5w30 @ 14k, and with the usual excess fuel looks like 0w20. I saw your uoa on your Shell Rotella 15w40 diesel oil with 12.5 cst@100c, and you have found your oil.

I know a guy in West Texas with the usual Chevy pu with 350 v8 that is still running at around 1/2 million miles without any internal work using Rotella 15w40.

You and olddragger are onto something because its over kill additives @ good price.

I run 0w40 Mobil 1 because it tests about 12cst @ 100c to maybe stop that front stationary bearing wear, and it tested the most hp and torque of many heavy weight in a dyno test.

;)

Well, I'm still split between sticking with Rotella 15-40, and switching to Mobil1 0-40. But the good news is that they both sound solid for the Renesis. Maybe I'll run a 50/50 blend of the two.

Hey RX8Convert22, you mind if the mods merge our two threads? I didn't realize you had started one and there is some great info there as well.

Question: Shouldn't we be looking at wear metals in addition to viscosity, in order to get a better grip on the bearing wear issue?

yes.
and that SHOULD be viscosity related.

^and additive.

yes.
and that SHOULD be viscosity related.

:sad:

Wear metals were high in my GC 0W-30 and the were slightly higher in the 15W-40 vs. the Mobil1 0W-40 results posted by REDRX3RX8. I wish we could create some type of comparison chart for the renny. There are a lot of variables here.

It will take a tremendous amount of data to prove meaningful correlations between viscosity & bearing wear via UOA. Case in point, if I'm not mistaken, one of the reports on this thread with the lowest Iron content is somebody running Castrol 5w20.

I still think UOAs are good idea, and I'll post my results here soon. But, an enterprising person could start a spreadsheet and collect the data as it is entered, and over time we could, perhaps, begin to see trends.

yep--- its more trend related for that particular engine that on a unified grand scale of things.
With enough data maybe some specific cooralation could be done--but yes i agree it would take a lot.

One thing I believe that has already become apparent ---the viscosity showings are mostly so far not standing up as some may think?
The flash points are lower than some may think also?
When it comes to wear metals---a LOT has to taken into consideration--including air filtration
driving enviroment, temps, adverage load on engine etc. I know you can make a case on the same affecting viscosity and it does but you can have wear metals without viscosity probs but not the otherway around?
OD

It will take a tremendous amount of data to prove meaningful correlations between viscosity & bearing wear via UOA. Case in point, if I'm not mistaken, one of the reports on this thread with the lowest Iron content is somebody running Castrol 5w20.

I still think UOAs are good idea, and I'll post my results here soon. But, an enterprising person could start a spreadsheet and collect the data as it is entered, and over time we could, perhaps, begin to see trends.

Once again George thank you for being a voice of reason.

Ok Fellas!! Got a present today.
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/136/l_aa2efe7051a14318a0b2ac7c7e5be4d3.jpg

nice Z&P levels.
and this is a synthetic --right?
i dont have the ability to scan mine in but i will type it out

Brand new engine
oil use interval 2K (after the 1st 500 miles with break in OIL)
diesel oil 15w/40
al--1
chr-5
iron-19
copper-2
lead-15
tin-1
moly-12
nickel 1
magenese 0
silver--0
Titanium and potasium --o
boron--44
silicon--10
sodium 6
calcium 1098
manesium-620
phos-912
zinc--1050
barium-0

sub viscosity at 210F = 61.0 should be 70-81
cST vis at 100C =10.50 --should be 12.9-16
flashpoint 355 should be greater than 390
fuel % 1.8%

not too bad for a new engine.
next will be maybe in 2 weeks and i am waiting to see if my higher oil temps have improved the fuel percentage.
OD

Yeah this is Mobil1 0W-40 with 2500 miles on it. I am actually disappointed about the fuel dilution since I specifically stopped warming my car up by idling and now I have more fuel in my oil. I will go back to warming up fully before leaving and then we will see next time.

But, the Mobil1 0W-40 did way better at 2500 miles than the highly acclaimed GC 0W-30 did at a measly 1500 miles.

Just email it to me dude and I will delete all of your personal data and post it up.

networkplus.scott@gmail.com

i didnt get an e mail notification from blackstone---got it in the regular mail.
ODiti

i didnt get an e mail notification from blackstone---got it in the regular mail.
ODiti


Oh, for mine they do both. I like the email version because you get it sooner and I am inpatient, haha.


What are your thoughts on the higher fuel percentage on this oil considering I stopped cold idling and started driving around the neighborhood slowly to warm her up?

This morning was the coldest day we have seen in San Antonio in years at 26F and it took over ten minutes for the oil to get to the 150F range. My car didn't move until then and the coolant was at about 165F at that point.

^Question about your new habits - would you say that your engine is running shorter, longer, or about the same period of time in your commute, when comparing your old vs. new habits? Include idle & drive time.

same every day--now i just keep my revs up a little more and the oil cooler blockers i have are finally getting my temps up.
i will bet my next uoa will be better and have less fuel.
with uoa it is also better to change just one thing at the time.

^Question about your new habits - would you say that your engine is running shorter, longer, or about the same period of time in your commute, when comparing your old vs. new habits? Include idle & drive time.

My engine would be running a little less because before i would let it sit and idle for 10 minutes or so until it warmed up fully. Now I drive around a little until its warmed up a bit and then hit the road. I'm back to just letting it idle until its warmed up fully.

My engine would be running a little less because before i would let it sit and idle for 10 minutes or so until it warmed up fully. Now I drive around a little until its warmed up a bit and then hit the road. I'm back to just letting it idle until its warmed up fully.

I would stick with the strategy of warming up with a light load. It is more effective at warming up the engine.

I bet it is the way the apex seals are working (really how they are not going to perfectly seal the combustion area from the non-combustion area) that causes the problem. Then the question would be - during what mode does the most gas get thru? Idling, pig-rich full throttle, cruising at 3,000 rpm, cold weather. I am not knowledgeable enough to understand which of these would exacerbate the problem.

And since I am still in the honeymoon phase with my car, I am still enjoying its idiosyncrasies!

After the direct injection (reciprocating) engines came out, I know I saw something about gas dilution with them too. I think people were saying some oils could cope with it better than others.

Yes the Mobil1 0W-40 handles it well as the viscosity is in a very acceptable level after 2500 miles but I will not go over 3,000 on an oil change.

I will run a UOA on my current oil. I am borrowing OD's idea of Rotella, except that I found 10W30. I assume it still has a higher amount of zinc and phosphorus, but I won't know for a couple more months. I am doing an in-between start up procedure. For my cold start/commute, I do let it idle for a minute, then drive a few blocks slowly, then get on the freeway after 2 miles but don't rev beyond 4,000 for about 5 miles. At the end of my commute, I run it up to 7,000 a couple of times.

On Friday when i started my car at work (sitting at about 5 degrees all day) the engine cranked a tiny bit longer and when it started it went to 4,000 for a bit, then down to like 1300. Is that one of the oem starups or was something wrong?

The car has been pulsing more at idle lately - that had gone away after i started premixing and changed the plugs. It was worse right when i got the car at the end of Oct with 33k on it. I assume its missing.

My engine would be running a little less because before i would let it sit and idle for 10 minutes or so until it warmed up fully. Now I drive around a little until its warmed up a bit and then hit the road. I'm back to just letting it idle until its warmed up fully.

Interesting. I wonder if it's simply a matter of how long the engine runs every time you start it. Makes sense, given the (low) oil temp data we have been seeing with these cars in a cold climate. At those lower temps, it just takes longer to thermally cleanse the oil.

Thats my point!
now that i can routinely get my temps to 190F i am seeing much less condensation on the dipstick---much less and sometimes totally gone.
Car runs better with oil temps 180 and above.
Hey Dude the 10w30 is not diesel oil --diesel will be a 15w/40.
OD

Shell Roella T5 has 10w40 and 10w30 with most diesel manufactorers specs. With Rotella Triple T more engine builders approve 15w40 than 10w30.

Mobil 1 0w40 is also CF spec for diesel engines especially car diesels, but probably less of the good stuff, since trucks can run their oil 40,000 or 50,000 miles between changes.

Notice that the zinc phos on my uoa 0w40 is fairly low which should be fine since we don't have sliding cams to worry about, and it'll go easy on the cat. It does have a lot of moly and boron is also for anti-wear.

This forum gave me lots of simple tips like premix, dewall the air box, take out the left floor rest, magnets on oil filter, etc.

I bought some 1"x2" magnets at Lowes hardware and put on all my cars oil filters. I think you can lower iron particles, and it might help some.

Just got my shipment of 09' Filters from Paul today :)

Shell Roella T5 has 10w40 and 10w30 with most diesel manufactorers specs. With Rotella Triple T more engine builders approve 15w40 than 10w30.

Mobil 1 0w40 is also CF spec for diesel engines especially car diesels, but probably less of the good stuff, since trucks can run their oil 40,000 or 50,000 miles between changes.

Notice that the zinc phos on my uoa 0w40 is fairly low which should be fine since we don't have sliding cams to worry about, and it'll go easy on the cat. It does have a lot of moly and boron is also for anti-wear.

This forum gave me lots of simple tips like premix, dewall the air box, take out the left floor rest, magnets on oil filter, etc.


My bottles do say Rotella T Triple Protection. Is T5 the synthetic version of Rotella?

Hey Dude the 10w30 is not diesel oil --diesel will be a 15w/40.
OD

Then I am out of luck - my car turns over slower just from switching from 5W30 to 10W30. My next choice would then need to be synthetic.

Shell Rotella T5 is synthetic blend diesel spec oil 10w30 and 10w40.

Shell Rotella T6 is full synthetic diesel spec oil 5w40.

Shell Rotella Triple T is dino diesel spec oil 15w40 and 10w30.

Then I am out of luck - my car turns over slower just from switching from 5W30 to 10W30. My next choice would then need to be synthetic.


Seriously? The viscosity will not effect starting.

Of course it does.

Thats EXACTLY the point of having a lower COLD viscosity.

Doesn't make a difference in San Antonio, but shure as hell does in Montreal.

Diesel can be anything, we can get 0w-30 oil for diesels over here just the same as you can for a petrol engine...

Of course it does.

Thats EXACTLY the point of having a lower COLD viscosity.

Doesn't make a difference in San Antonio, but shure as hell does in Montreal.


Only in very, very, very cold climates I suppose. Let's find out where he is from.

Minnesnowta. Minne-below-ta as in below zero every morning the last week. We will have an above average 30 degree high on Tues!!!

well learn something everyday.
I did not know you could get a 10W 30 diesel oil. well- now i know you can--but it is not certified for all diesel use like the 15W/40 is. I will stick with the common vis.
I dont go into the synthetics-- i stick with petro since i change oil so often.

Just curious,

Has anyone sent their same sample to more than one oil analysis labs? It would be interesting to see the variation in testing methods. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a belief that the test results are rock solid and 100% accurate.

Redundant testing would show this. Just curious.

Eric--- agreed. But, to me it is sort of like dynoing a car. Stick with one dyno/lab as the results are unque (to a point) to your vechicle. So its really not a "finding/result" I am looking for, its a trend.
So many things can influence a uao.
But it does give me something to do while I making a mess.
OD

Just curious,

Has anyone sent their same sample to more than one oil analysis labs? It would be interesting to see the variation in testing methods. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a belief that the test results are rock solid and 100% accurate.

Redundant testing would show this. Just curious.

Actually I have read that there can be some discrepancies in the testing that make the results useless so I do plan on sending a sample to another lab I am trying to find another lab with reasonable prices. Any recommendations? I also plan on sending a virgin sample in for testing I am just wondering if I should tell Blackstone it is used oil just to see what results I get.

Any lab worth their salt will run calibration sample tests of their own to verify their own machines. If they don't they will have a lot to lose in the way of business. So if your sending your samples to unreliable lab this would be a problem. It's same for blood work done at the hospitals calibrating and recalibrating is the nature of the beast for all labs. So if your sending fresh samples in you will only be paying for their own calibrating and verifying process.

Well if I send in a clean sample and and the report verifies its clean then I would say the usual results are pretty accurate. We will see.

blackstone has been around a while---they stand to lose A LOT if they dont do a good job.
OD

Just curious,

Has anyone sent their same sample to more than one oil analysis labs? It would be interesting to see the variation in testing methods. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a belief that the test results are rock solid and 100% accurate.

Redundant testing would show this. Just curious.

Theres more to it then that...

I run a predicitive maintenance program at work where we do a lot of oil sampling of machinery. In order to get a decently repeatable sample, you need to drain out a good amount of oil so you get a sample from the actual fluid circulating in the system and not just whats laying in the bottom of the oil resevoir.

In i'd say in a majority of the DIY automotive samples, you see completely piss poor trends because of poor sample taking methods. I've seen many people do "long term oil tests" by just tapping off enough oil to fill the sample jar every couple thousand miles and start proclaiming to the world there sample results actually have and use...

So how would you suggest taking a sample from an RX8? I take mine mid stream during the drain.

i do the same after oil has warmed up good.
OD

Yeah I always drain my oil hot/warm.

Here is some food for thought:
ZDDP also alters bearing and journal surface characteristics to prevent metal to metal contact. Under extereme conditions like a high perfromance motor, ZDDP reduces the tendancy of parts to scuff or gall under heavy loads.

From this website:
http://www.eastwood.com/underhood-engine/zddp-oil-additive/zddp-plus-oil-additive-4-fl-oz.html

So do Zinc or Moly go directly to this issue (either buying oil that hasn't had it reduced or an additive)? Ie, are our bearings bearing the brunt of protecting the cats?

Also, lubricant experts: would i learn anything by having Blackstone run MMO? Maybe compared to FP Plus and Amsoil Saber Pro. Anyone want to go in 1/3 on a comparo?

Theres more to it then that...

I run a predicitive maintenance program at work where we do a lot of oil sampling of machinery. In order to get a decently repeatable sample, you need to drain out a good amount of oil so you get a sample from the actual fluid circulating in the system and not just whats laying in the bottom of the oil resevoir.

In i'd say in a majority of the DIY automotive samples, you see completely piss poor trends because of poor sample taking methods. I've seen many people do "long term oil tests" by just tapping off enough oil to fill the sample jar every couple thousand miles and start proclaiming to the world there sample results actually have and use...

This makes complete sense for stationary machinery, but it would seem that in an automobile (particularly one that regularly gets subjected to elevated braking and cornering forces) the oil would be mixed a bit better, and one could easily overcome any issues in this regard by waiting a few seconds after removing the drain plug before taking the sample, as others have noted. Cleaning around the drain plug before removing is also a good idea, I'm sure.

I guess, before taking the sample, in addition to getting your oil nice & hot, one should find a nice slalom somewhere. :)

OK, to put things into more perspective when I worked at a pretty well known company's oil R&D labs for engine oils they had a testing program for employees cars where they would....

- drain the oil
- run a flushing oil through the system (typically you only drain about 80% of the oil on most cars and then you still want to clean out any sludge in the valve train and oil passeges)
- drain it again
- drop the oil pan and clean out any sludge
- fill with the new test oil
... depending on the routine, a sampling port might also be installed on an oil cooler line if your car had one

...and then have a sample size of 20-50 cars...

scientific methods are a lot of work:)
After a lot of thought from my old tired brain--i have come to realize that why the rotary shears oil so much is because of the rotor bearing loads on the e shaft and the rotor gear load on the stationary gears?
An arguement for a oil with pressure additives like transmission oils maybe could be made?
OD

scientific methods are a lot of work:)
After a lot of thought from my old tired brain--i have come to realize that why the rotary shears oil so much is because of the rotor bearing loads on the e shaft and the rotor gear load on the stationary gears?
An arguement for a oil with pressure additives like transmission oils maybe could be made?

But why so much worry over the shearing? Rotor bearing failure is basically never the failure mode of a rotary engine. Most of the time the e-shaft can be reused during a rebuild. Stationary gear failure is sometimes the failure mode, but not from lubrication failures, usually from becoming not stationary.

scientific methods are a lot of work:)
After a lot of thought from my old tired brain--i have come to realize that why the rotary shears oil so much is because of the rotor bearing loads on the e shaft and the rotor gear load on the stationary gears?
An arguement for a oil with pressure additives like transmission oils maybe could be made?
OD

Yep, which is why I recommended that Millers oil design specifically for high shear loads - their rep is looking into whether it would be commercialy viable to produce a 5w-40 version for us rotary owners.

But why so much worry over the shearing? Rotor bearing failure is basically never the failure mode of a rotary engine. Most of the time the e-shaft can be reused during a rebuild. Stationary gear failure is sometimes the failure mode, but not from lubrication failures, usually from becoming not stationary.

In case you missed it:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=183355

While it's true that the prevailing wisdom, that Renesis failures are mostly due to carbon build up and/or lack of lubrication of the seals, still holds (at least best I can tell, LOL), clearly there is something going on with Renesis bearing wear that has not been present in older rotaries. So, assuming premixing and proper maintenance solves the seal lubrication & carbon issues, we'd like to know that the bearings will not wear out prematurely.

In case you missed it:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=183355

While it's true that the prevailing wisdom, that Renesis failures are mostly due to carbon build up and/or lack of lubrication of the seals, still holds (at least best I can tell, LOL), clearly there is something going on with Renesis bearing wear that has not been present in older rotaries. So, assuming premixing and proper maintenance solves the seal lubrication & carbon issues, we'd like to know that the bearings will not wear out prematurely.


Thanks, saved me from a much longer and less concise post.

Thanks, saved me from a much longer and less concise post.

:yelrotflm:yelrotflm:yelrotflm

you know i am getting a lot more oil in my catch can now that my temps are up.
hmmmmmm.
OD

Could it also have to do with more oil pressure? Right now when I pull the intake hose off, I do not see any residue in there. That was making me think i wouldn't benefit from a catch can. Am I wrong? Do you think when I do the Oil Pressure Mod i will get more oil in the intake?

Hmmmmmm.... I will be installing my OP kit and a catch can on the same day so we will see.

wait......so should i warm up the car, or just drive it?

confused on that part. and a small why wouldn't hurt too :P

right now i'm thinking it gets gas in the oil?

wait......so should i warm up the car, or just drive it?

confused on that part. and a small why wouldn't hurt too :P

right now i'm thinking it gets gas in the oil?

Well the common belief is that idling your car to full warm before driving away increases fuel content in the oil and dilutes it. But I stopped doing that during my last OCI and my fuel content increased in the fuel so..................

Now I am back to letting it warm up completely before I go anywhere so we will see in my next UOA.

Well the common belief is that idling your car to full warm before driving away increases fuel content in the oil and dilutes it. But I stopped doing that during my last OCI and my fuel content increased in the fuel so..................

Now I am back to letting it warm up completely before I go anywhere so we will see in my next UOA.

cool thank you! i'll let it idle for now, just cause i see rotaries as glass cannons. i'll idle for warmth until your next uoa and then we will see :)
thanks!

no way does the bypass have any affect on increased oil catch can output. I think what is happening is because i am getting my oil temp hotter the engine is boiling off all the crap.
i had a lot of crap! Less being produced right now.
would you believe over a pint of muddy.creamy looking crap came out?
OD

and that was after you cleaned out the pan?

no way does the bypass have any affect on increased oil catch can output. I think what is happening is because i am getting my oil temp hotter the engine is boiling off all the crap.
i had a lot of crap! Less being produced right now.
would you believe over a pint of muddy.creamy looking crap came out?
OD
You talked about using diesel oil :confused: did you ever switch? could that be what its from? :dunno:

Seriously? The viscosity will not effect starting.

Of course it does.

Thats EXACTLY the point of having a lower COLD viscosity.

Doesn't make a difference in San Antonio, but shure as hell does in Montreal.
I use to use 5w-40 non-synthetci oil and never had any start up issues. But now that I use Mobil 1 0w-40 synthetic oil in the winter my start ups take a lill longer. Hope that will go a way when it starts getting hot.

no diesel oil has nothing to do with it. not getting the oil up to temps and the unusual cold here in the recent past was what caused this. since i cleaned the catch and have kept my temps up--i am getting much less.
OD

I have been noticing the white froth at the top of the dipstick lately. I also noticed that even when it was warm yesterday (mid 70's) my oil temps were the same (even after doing some "testing") at cruising speeds. I wish summer would come.

Interesting read.

http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182855-1.html

Interesting read.
http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/182855-1.html

Indeed. And the third professional to say that oil is oil (http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2499530&postcount=23). And this is a guy who tests oils that people's lives depend on. Think anybody will listen? :dunno:


Is there one brand or type of oil you like better than the others?

No, I think all of them are making good oils.

So get the viscosity right, which I think we've seen clear evidence makes a big difference, and don't worry so much about brand and type.

Yeah, I have read that a lot lately. But, I have seen how different (not bad, just different) oils can be when tested.

the most impressive uoa i've found was for a gti i think, redline 10w40, 7.5k mile interval before change, and they said it could still go a bit more

and i've seen wally mart oil uoas at 3k, with black stone suggesting changing earlier or new oil

Here is an interesting quote from the article by Fenton:

Bearing wear will sometimes throw us. It's very, very slow. Sometimes when an engine is opened up the mechanic will say, 'We've got some badly worn bearings in here,' and yet the oil analysis didn't show a thing because it's so gradual that we never saw a break in the profile.

Yeah I read that. Our bearings are copper right?

It will take a tremendous amount of data to prove meaningful correlations between viscosity & bearing wear via UOA. Case in point, if I'm not mistaken, one of the reports on this thread with the lowest Iron content is somebody running Castrol 5w20.

I still think UOAs are good idea, and I'll post my results here soon. But, an enterprising person could start a spreadsheet and collect the data as it is entered, and over time we could, perhaps, begin to see trends.

ding, ding! we have a winner

Okay so who wants to create a spreadsheet for me :).

I have no problem doing it. I am a data freak for work anyway, and this kind of stuff really interests me :)


(I'll deny it, but I heard someone in my head once tell me how to set up a really involved test to benchmark the effect of every type of oil, and a different voice told me that I need a million or so in funding to do it.)

Edit:
So is a starter set of data or a bunch of sheets hanging around out there that I can use? And do you only get them as paper or images, vs do you get them in digital form any way (other than digital picture). I can use software to get most of what I need without having to retype everything from sheets, but if each sheet is in a PDF or word document where it already recognizes the text and numbers, that would be best.

Let me know if you need me email address.

I have no problem doing it. I am a data freak for work anyway, and this kind of stuff really interests me :)


(I'll deny it, but I heard someone in my head once tell me how to set up a really involved test to benchmark the effect of every type of oil, and a different voice told me that I need a million or so in funding to do it.)

Edit:
So is a starter set of data or a bunch of sheets hanging around out there that I can use? And do you only get them as paper or images, vs do you get them in digital form any way (other than digital picture). I can use software to get most of what I need without having to retype everything from sheets, but if each sheet is in a PDF or word document where it already recognizes the text and numbers, that would be best.

Let me know if you need me email address.

OD (old fart :)) gets them in paper format I believe but I get them emailed to me as a .PDF and I have a couple (withe personal info removed of course) that are in .PDF format as well that I could email you.

Sounds good. I PMed you my email. I can use yours as a basis to start it up.

If anyone does send any that have personal info, I will strip it off and refer only by their 8club ID. I handle alot of cases on the side dealing with identity theft, so I am aware of any risk there, and won't store anything personal anywhere.

Alright, I have the spreadsheet started, although while building it, I think I need to add more points than what are provided by the UOA sheets, so if you send a sheet to me, also send:

- Engine mileage at the change (chassis mileage if you are on your first engine, not chassis mileage if you are on your 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 27th, or 19,567,012th.)
- Year of 8 (for series, flash, other changes)
- Transmission (AT / MT)
- Primary Climate (Warm Dry, Cold Dry, Warm Wet, Dry Wet)
- Primary Octane used
- Premix Type
- Premix Volume
- Oil burn rate (any rate calculation you want is fine, though please specify how you arrived at that rate, I will convert to quarts per 1,000miles)

...and if you know them: (each point for the oil being analyzed, not lifetime)
- Typical Cold Oil Pressure
- Typical Hot Oil Pressure
- Typical Hot Oil Temp
- Typical Hot Water Temp


I see these additional points as potentially affecting how much engine wear someone has. Disagree with me? Ok. Send the information anyway and we will let the data/trend prove me wrong. If there is something you think might play a part in the wear and UOA and you think I should add it, just let me know.

If you are wrong, then the data will say so, if you are right, then the data will say so.

What I don't want is for this to get a few years down the road and we are seeing a clear trend or confusing data, and someone says: "I bet <this> is the issue, can we track that?"

It's better to include the data than think it's not worth it.


Edit:
Added climate
I'd add driving behavior, but that is so subjective and opinion / perspective based that it isn't 'data points' to track.

I also don't want to add mod lists or anything. If your mod should change something here, then it will show up here. Measure it, don't just tell me "I got the latest chrome plated schnozzlesquirter for my thingamabob, so I should be seeing my coolant retaining bolt drop several degrees below my headlight amoeba spawn count." I can't track that.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to first see about getting Blackstone's data. Someone could perhaps volunteer to co-author a piece with them that would highlight their services and provide very useful information to the RX-8 community, or any other car community. Wonder if they've ever done or thought about this?

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to first see about getting Blackstone's data. Someone could perhaps volunteer to co-author a piece with them that would highlight their services and provide very useful information to the RX-8 community, or any other car community. Wonder if they've ever done or thought about this?

I thought about that. I'm guessing that it would a cost$ outlay to get their data. I can give it a shot.

What other UOA companies are out there that people use?

Oil change interval is going to be WAY more important than what brand. It'll take a lot less data to prove that, so we should see that a lot earlier than comparing types.

Also, has Blackstone's results ever been in question? Just thinking it might be good to send a sample or two to a different lab and compare. All data is for nothing if the methods are not correct.

Excellent point.

I think I might do that on my next change. Haven't had any oil analyzed yet, so might be interesting.

Yeah I actually read some things that did question some of the UOA's but I never found any data questioning black stones results. I would like to take sample and split it up between two companies and see what the results are. Anyone know of another company reasonably priced beside Blackstone?

Yeah I actually read some things that did question some of the UOA's but I never found any data questioning black stones results. I would like to take sample and split it up between two companies and see what the results are. Anyone know of another company reasonably priced beside Blackstone?

I spoke to a few people in the industry who deal with oil analysis for private sectory and the miltary. They suggested blackstone mainly for the cost vs. benefit.

Blackstone's reports are very well laid out and easy to read. Also the fact that they provide a paragraph of comments for the sample also is a great feature I've not seen anywhere else.

Change interval is something you can accomplish with a sample taken at 3,000 miles or so with a TBN to detect how much of the additive package is left.

Indeed. And the third professional to say that oil is oil (http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2499530&postcount=23). And this is a guy who tests oils that people's lives depend on. Think anybody will listen? :dunno:




And yet then they speak about the Mobil 1 problem they saw....
So, obviously, oil ain't oil.

And yet then they speak about the Mobil 1 problem they saw....
So, obviously, oil ain't oil.

HA! :evil_laug Right. So that proves synthetic sucks! Right? Right? :lol2:

:lol:

I spoke to a few people in the industry who deal with oil analysis for private sectory and the miltary. They suggested blackstone mainly for the cost vs. benefit.

Blackstone's reports are very well laid out and easy to read. Also the fact that they provide a paragraph of comments for the sample also is a great feature I've not seen anywhere else.

Change interval is something you can accomplish with a sample taken at 3,000 miles or so with a TBN to detect how much of the additive package is left.

Yeah I am just curious what the results would be of the same sample sent to two different places.

Yeah I am just curious what the results would be of the same sample sent to two different places.

I did that last Summer. Same sample, divided evenly, sent to Blackstone and Oil Analyzers Inc. (oiltesting.com). The results were a little different, but not much IIRC. I don't know where the reports are, but I'll look for them this weekend and post them if I find them. (Might have been for my truck and not my 8.)

Sweet, that would be cool.

You there is another thread or two with oil analysis from Blackstone.

I worked with a guy in New York City that never changed his oil. Just trade the car in every 7 years.

He also never replaced plugs wires or coils unless the car stopped working.

He always got 100 to 150k miles.

So what does this show? An engine will last along time as long as she has oil period!

Yeah, I had a manager that commuted from central West Virginia to Rockville MD and back every day. He was at 83,000 miles in his Civic and hadn't bothered to change his oil yet (since brand new).


People like that scare me.


I get that certain cars and live through that abuse, that it is possible, etc...

But the lack of caring makes me shudder.

Certain engines will last with that type of abuse, others will not. My brother in law had an early 90's toyota SR22 pickup and he only changed the oil once in 7 years before it finally coughed up the timing chain.

Tming Chain has nothing to do with oil changes.

I remember the old days with an actual metal chain where it would last forever.

And yes, just think of that Used car you bought form a dealer. Runs fine now butt how often was the car maintained?

Most big engines still have internal metal timing chain to run camshaft.

Careless oil changing can indeed sludge top of head, valves, cams, chain, etc.

Sometimes after about 300,000 miles the chain can slip one or several gears over and made the camshaft timing chain out of time.

If you go on the M5 forums there's a lovely example of a car that didn't have the oil changed for 30k - there were big, gel-like sludge deposits absolutely covering the cylinder head.
Owner had fetched it into a dealer complaining that the dash had told him there was a VANOS fault and put it in limp home - the oil tubes to the vanos pump were blocked solid.

Tming Chain has nothing to do with oil changes.

I remember the old days with an actual metal chain where it would last forever.

And yes, just think of that Used car you bought form a dealer. Runs fine now butt how often was the car maintained?

Sorry buddy but that statement is just wrong. It was a Toyota SR22 and the timing chain was black and when removed it was stiff as a board, you could hardly see where each link attached. You wouldn't have believed the damage it did to the plastic chain guide. When we dropped the pan there were pieces of plastic in it and no oil in it. The valve train was jet black and very scary. The chain ended up being the culprit according to the re builder but I Imagine the whole engine was just choked to death with sludge.

Yeah this is Mobil1 0W-40 with 2500 miles on it. I am actually disappointed about the fuel dilution since I specifically stopped warming my car up by idling and now I have more fuel in my oil. I will go back to warming up fully before leaving and then we will see next time.

But, the Mobil1 0W-40 did way better at 2500 miles than the highly acclaimed GC 0W-30 did at a measly 1500 miles.[/email]
Well the common belief is that idling your car to full warm before driving away increases fuel content in the oil and dilutes it. But I stopped doing that during my last OCI and my fuel content increased in the fuel so..................

Now I am back to letting it warm up completely before I go anywhere so we will see in my next UOA.
Yeah I actually read some things that did question some of the UOA's but I never found any data questioning black stones.Not sure I'm following you here. Was your oil "analysis" showing greater fuel dilution based on a much longer OCI and with a different oil? I think it's pretty well known that Blacstone's fuel dilution numbers are only rough estimates based on flashpoint and not an actual analysis. I would ask them about this, if that's still the case, before you make drastic changes to your driving style based on a couple of data points that may not actually be real data.

Yes this was on a 2500 mile OCI with a full synthetic Mobil1 0W-40. The previous analysis was with the much loved GC 0W-30 and the fuel dilution was much less but the viscosity was was low as well and it only had 1500 miles on it. Scary to think what would have happened to the GC at the factory OCI recommendation. And I'm not making drastic changes to my driving style, I'm just going back to warming my car before leaving just like I always have. Not even sure if it will have any effect at all, just curious. We will see what the fuel dilution percentage is on the next OCI.

I'm gonna try Rotella 5W-40 this next time after I get another report to see whats up. I change my oil every 3,000 (usually less) so trying different oils shouldn't be a prob.

And I'm not making drastic changes to my driving style, I'm just going back to warming my car before leaving just like I always have.Warming up my car for 10 minutes every morning (and evening?) would be pretty drastic for me, but maybe that's just me.
Not even sure if it will have any effect at all, just curious. We will see what the fuel dilution percentage is on the next OCI.

I'm gonna try Rotella 5W-40 this next time after I get another report to see whats up. I change my oil every 3,000 (usually less) so trying different oils shouldn't be a prob.My point was not that there's a problem with changing your choice of oil, just that the fuel dilution numbers are not real numbers, especially when your comparing estimates based on flashpoints of different oils.

You there is another thread or two with oil analysis from Blackstone.
I worked with a guy in New York City that never changed his oil. Just trade the car in every 7 years.
He also never replaced plugs wires or coils unless the car stopped working.
He always got 100 to 150k miles.
So what does this show? An engine will last along time as long as she has oil period!
What century was that?
yeah and the guy at Mazda told me to replace the oil filter every other oil change. Riiiiiight.


OK so how do you test oil for dirt? or sand? I want to know where to send my oil mobil1 0w40 sence I have been using a K&N filter.

OK so how do you test oil for dirt? or sand? I want to know where to send my oil mobil1 0w40 sence I have been using a K&N filter.

Dirt == sand == silicon.

Any lab will test for silicon content as part of the standard test. Silicon is mostly what dirt is so it's a reasonable measure of how much "dirt" is getting into your oil. It can also come from silicon sealant, so if you've done any work involving that, it can be elevated for a while. But it shouldn't stay elevated.

Click on the "Gas/Diesel Report" link on this page and mouse-over Silicon.
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php

I think this is a worthwhile notice about silicon content:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/the-silicon-bugaboo.php

if you think you are getting dirt in the engine--you will see it in the oil.
I will never run a K&N again because of the lack of filtering i have seen in my car (filter on the inside of the engine bay) Hell i could see small holes in it! No matter how much oil i sprayed on the filter!
Overtime I am convinced it would promote faster engine wear. I rum the AEM now.

I just my second sample off on my new engine--will post results asap.
OD

Yes, I got rid of my K&N for that reason.

Ok so I took off my K&N filter and checked the intake where the maf is and its clean of gridd sand or dirt. Just had a really light oil like film on it. Black stuff. But I seen this on the TB before. I clean it about once a year. Even then thats over kill cuz its so damn clean. Anyway, where do I send my oil to get tested again? thanks.
With the stock intake box and filter I would get oil over flow and see oil on my filter. Not anymore with this set up.

Request a test kit.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

Ok so I took off my K&N filter and checked the intake where the maf is and its clean of gridd sand or dirt. Just had a really light oil like film on it. Black stuff. But I seen this on the TB before. I clean it about once a year. Even then thats over kill cuz its so damn clean. Anyway, where do I send my oil to get tested again? thanks.
With the stock intake box and filter I would get oil over flow and see oil on my filter. Not anymore with this set up.

Oil on the filter has nothing to do with your setup and everything to do with over filling the oil feed neck and having oil go down the hose into your TB, accordion tube and air filter. The less oil you over fill, the less oil gets in.

Oil on the filter has nothing to do with your setup and everything to do with over filling the oil feed neck and having oil go down the hose into your TB, accordion tube and air filter. The less oil you over fill, the less oil gets in.
This is my second RX-8 and have always put 4.25 to 5 liters in my RX-8's redline them and had oil on my intake filters. Yeah yeah I know less is more but with the same ammount of oil and this K&N v2 intake filter I have no engine oil on the K&N filter.

we have back pressure from blow by that will send oil to the intake tube. some have more than others.
oD

This is my second RX-8 and have always put 4.25 to 5 liters in my RX-8's redline them and had oil on my intake filters. Yeah yeah I know less is more but with the same ammount of oil and this K&N v2 intake filter I have no engine oil on the K&N filter.

Just curious why you put in so much Oil in your RX-8..

I put in 4.2 (with New Oil Filter) 4.0 without and it is just Over the full mark.(S2)
S1 4.0 with Filter, 3.8 without.

5 litres is WAY too much oil for either S1 or S2, unless you have a modified oil system?

Just curious why you put in so much Oil in your RX-8..

I put in 4.2 (with New Oil Filter) 4.0 without and it is just Over the full mark.(S2)
S1 4.0 with Filter, 3.8 without.

5 litres is WAY too much oil for either S1 or S2, unless you have a modified oil system?

Or if you use a procedure to drain more. Some people use a jacking method and some people use a pump..... that reads weird

Or if you use a procedure to drain more. Some people use a jacking method and some people use a pump..... that reads weird

I just bounce it up and down a little. :lol:

Fresh Eneos is in the engine and the Tranny as of this morning. My car is happy again!

Man, early morning oil change :)

Too frickin cold here in Boston. It's -6 with wind chill and I dont have a garage :( I really dont want to go to the dealer or valvoline. Maybe I can get my brother to do it since he is jobless :)

got my 2nd uoa in with diesel 15w/40, changed at 2K
my wear metals are better (new engine )
It all looks better (and I will post it tonight from home) EXCEPT
I now have a 2.5% fuel percentage and thats not good. It affected my viscosity and flash points. Now for those of you who are not aware, I am supercharged with larger injectors and a water meth injection system that I turn on only in boost (not often).
I am presently scratching my head--may have to go to a 20w/50 all the time. I do keep my oil temps up now with the coolers blocked.
Maybe i need a better oil pan vacuum system?
OD

Yeah my fuel percentage was up as well last time and it's bugging the crap out of me.

I didn't send my old oil in - but my first oil change was done yesterday.

We took a small sample due to me having a brand new engine and we ran it under a 10x scope and an electromagnet.... there was no discernible metal in the oil; thank you ceramic seals!!!!!

good news Kane!--hows the vis holding? Throw some on the hot exhaust manifold/header?

Yep 9K maybe we need a road trip! Drive the crap out of it:)
OD

Shhhhhh but I use old oil to help me check for exhaust leaks.... LOL redneck I know.

The vis looked fine; but it has been cold here and I haven't driven the piss out of it - no fuel smell really either.

Then again I was using like $100 bucks worth of high end motor oil as break in oil... hahaha

Hell yeah! We have the statewide meet coming up soon so 300 miles of curves and switchbacks should do it :) I also plan to do a impromptu run of the route prior to that.

OD, you mind if I edit and repost without your personal info? Viscosity looks low man.

OD, is this sample from the same oil as when you dropped the pan? If, so, why do you think there is no water in it?

OD's UOA.

http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/115/l_ab8ff52e03d44e1ca7c614c72ea5ba37.jpg

yes ganseg it was and i dont know. maybe it wasnt water but fuel instead?
thanks for doing that 9K --its a wonder i got a picture posted at all!
viscosity is low for that oil but still more than enough to protect the engine.
OD

Cool, now edit your previous post and remove the attachment :)

We have to get to the bottom of this fuel dilution issue. Could it be your injectors?

i dont see how as my ltft's are ok and my a/f's are ok.
but something is happening.
od

Here is my first report (is there a better way to include the image?).

It's better than I would have imagined, considering the interval, first oil change, etc. The make-up oil was probably closer to 2 quarts, as I bought it as a factory rep car with 1000 miles on it and the dealer had topped it off before I took it.

how the heck did you have a cst of over 8 with a 5w/20 oil?
I am beginning to believe the devil invented uoa's
Your's sure looks good

Just for the hell of it --i will changing out my diesel oil for a track oil for a w/e at Road Atlanta march 12/14.
I will do a uoa post weekend on that change. I will be going with a 20w/50 oil for track--probably castrol gtx.Maybe Redline 15w/50 --dont know yet.

Here you go Pete. It looks really good for 5,500 miles (a lot better than the GC 0W-30 i had at 1500 miles). I was just talking to grungepup this morning about doing a UOA of his 5W-20 since his car is dealer serviced every 3k. Thanks for posting a UOA of 5W-20.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152205&d=1267101744

"1.3L Turbo"? :squint:

This is why sometimes I wonder about Blackstone... (And I'm a longtime customer.)

Here's mine with RotellaT 10W30 - none added during the 2000 mile oci. It was very clean before this oil went in since I have changed it 4 times in 7,000 miles. (I just bought the car in Oct, and have no proof of oil changes beyond the factory recommended.

Does this phorphorus and zinc look good (from the perspective of people who don't like the newer ILSAC std)? 797 and 954

1.8% gas; 330 flashpoint

Who can help me post this .rtf? I click the manage attachement button and it just says error on page.

how the heck did you have a cst of over 8 with a 5w/20 oil?
I am beginning to believe the devil invented uoa's


Yes, I wondered that myself. Makes me wonder if the factory is putting in 5W30 or ?

As for the rest, I expected worse since I don't know how the car was handled for the 1000 miles before I bought it. I imagined a lot of cold starts to move it around, etc., but I guess it wasn't too bad. I have 5w30 GTX in it for winter, and probably will go to 10W40 for summer. Future UOAs should be interesting...

hey ganseng--so you have fuel dilution issues too? Flashpoint affected?
phos and zinc sound about right.

how the heck did you have a cst of over 8 with a 5w/20 oil?

I don't see anything out of the ordinary. A viscosity of 8 cSt is about average for a 20W oil at 212*F. It may be a little higher or lower. He's at 8.3 which is right where it should be. Here's a chart showing expected ranges for various oil weights.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

thats just it---people are having trouble keeping the vis's up in the appropiate range. This is the 1st one I have seen with a 20W that has answered the muster call.
Could the lack of any fuel be a big factor? Several uoa's are showing over 1%-2%?

I don't see anything out of the ordinary. A viscosity of 8 cSt is about average for a 20W oil at 212*F. It may be a little higher or lower. He's at 8.3 which is right where it should be. Here's a chart showing expected ranges for various oil weights.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

My highly regarded GC 0W-30 was down to the 9.0 range after only 1500 miles.

My highly regarded GC 0W-30 was down to the 9.0 range after only 1500 miles.


What is your oil temp running at this time of year? Wondering if is a bit cool in the winter...leading to dilution problems in daily driving??

I had to block off the oil coolers to keep mine warm enough....