What is your oil temp running at this time of year? Wondering if is a bit cool in the winter...leading to dilution problems in daily driving??

I had to block off the oil coolers to keep mine warm enough....

I am averaging about 170F on the return line. I did notice on the drive back when my radiator was cracked that my oil temps were about 190 on the return while keeping the coolant temps at the normal 180-190F range. So the oil cooler was working hard to cool the engine since the radiator was leaking. I think I f I was on the stock coolers i would have had to have my car towed to the house.

Here is ganseg's UOA

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2764/4390637228_310a2747b0_o.jpg

do yall think those hard working, hard squeezing rotor stationary gears is what is causing a lot of the oil breakdown?

We have to get to the bottom of this fuel dilution issue.

My test showed 1.8% dilution after 2,000 miles. A friend said maybe it is cold starts. Its not the idling (alone) because i don't do that much idling. Where is the oil exposed to gas? I know in a piston engine it is the rings that separates them, but in the rotary what does?

Yeah I did some work to my oil lines this weekend and took some oil from the cooler and although the oil looks pretty clear after 2,000 miles I could smell gas in it :(.

OD, Ganseg, how many miles (I know OD and I have new motors) do you have on your injectors?

My car has 40k and I have no record of a prior owner changing injectors.

Oh, and FYI, for all of those who say Mazda uses Castrol or their own brand. I took this pic in the rear of a Mazda Dealer shop. I went to buy Diff Fluid and when I peaked out back they had this one and another tank that was 10W-30.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2715/4399724708_994599332c_b.jpg

And as I predicted, the 06's are starting to show up so it's BS that it's limited to 04's and 05's.

2006 with like 50k

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2689/4398958789_85f572283f.jpg

how about that----i am wondering about the s2 model.
has anyone done a uoa with synthetic oil?
OD

My UOA is with Mobil 1 0W-40. Or do you mean Series II's?

Just saw something interesting on BITOG:
btw-Blackstone's fuel numbers are found from a table based on the flash point. They do not measure the actual fuel content.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1683163#Post1683193

Bump.

do yall think those hard working, hard squeezing rotor stationary gears is what is causing a lot of the oil breakdown?

That's always been my opinion, the local Millers Oil rep. is seeing if it's feasable to produce this in a 5w30/40 weight:

http://www.millersoils.net/M3_cgi/millers2.cgi?product_id=28&exact_match=on&type=motorsport&cart_id=

But I haven't heard back yet.

Reports: First is engine, second is trans.

Blackstone continues to BS a bit. That nonsense about apex seals being the source of the higher chromium number is ridiculous. It's coming from the main bearings, like we've all seen here on track-driven RENESIS engine tear-downs. Also I think it's time to go to some thicker gunk. Maybe even that Rotella T, which Wallyworld now stocks in-depth in big jugs.

The transmission report is nice. It reflects the difference I felt when I switched from the stock dyno lube to the Red Line MT-90. Much less metal coming off the parts. Still, the transmission was reluctant to go into fourth on the track when hot. Since I switched the Swepco 201. Weird sticky stuff. Now it bitches about going into 1rst all the time! But it goes into fourth easy hot or cold. Trying to squeak some more life out of a hard-driven transmission...

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156921
http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=156922

Did you have makeup oil this time? Had you run heavier oil on any of the past tests?

No and no.

Mobil1 0W-40 from another Texas member. Looks Good :)

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5247/5283556134_c4286ed8ff_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5283556134/)
41896-E38992 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5283556134/) by 9krpmrx8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/9krpmrx8/), on Flickr

I ordered a test kit, and I will post the results after this oil change.

Cool, I have some results to post up from a run of Rotella T6 5W-40 and Mobil1 0W-40 as well. I am just awaiting the results from my last mobil1 run so I can post them all at once.

I think we need more information than just the compounds of the oil after the runs. Unfortunately I don't have the equipment. I will have a compression tester in the next 6 months, and I want to see if theres a difference at the rotors too.

Yeah Doc, I usually run a used oil analysis a few times during warranty to see if there's a water leak, and to get a feel for dirt ingestion.

Notice that at 5151 miles, and one years use the silicon (dirt) is 10ppm while the limit is 12, so the air filter is working ok.

If some one wants to track engine longevity, they can put in a vacuum gauge, and watch it go lower as the seals wear over a few years.

My vacuum baseline is 18.5 inches vacuum @ fast idle startup, and 16 inches fully warmed at idle.

That's at 2900ft elevation; it also gets 18 inches fully warmed at 900ft.

I need to get a vacuum gauge.

You actually put a good number of miles on the oil, and the additives kind of held up. Playing around with different filters I bet you could get those dirt levels down, but it might not just be your filter. They dont seal the the gas station tank covers when they fill the tank, so that fuel gets mixed in with crap off the road. I am sure some of that is coming from the pump.

The vacuum gauge is a good idea, but I would like to be able to test compression as well.

3 for $10. Good quality American made vacuum gauges. Not really for dash installation, but fine for the garage:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79683

No affiliation with the guy.

^ On older setups yes, newer setups have plastic tanks and filters before the fuel hits the pumps. That is why I use (and have since the new motor) the new shell station by my house. I talked to a friend of my bosses who owns a construction company and three brand new Exxon Tigermarts..

I get my gas from am much older station outside the city of Dallas, because the fuel is ethanol free.

I actually have a couple of shop vacuum gauges. I have two that are carb mounted for synchronizing the dual carbs on my 1958 porsche, and I have a diagnostic one. I am more looking for one to install in the car permanently.

You actually put a good number of miles on the oil, and the additives kind of held up. Playing around with different filters I bet you could get those dirt levels down, but it might not just be your filter. They dont seal the the gas station tank covers when they fill the tank, so that fuel gets mixed in with crap off the road. I am sure some of that is coming from the pump.

The vacuum gauge is a good idea, but I would like to be able to test compression as well.

All modern fuel tankers have a full flow 4 inch quick coupling with a sight glass, and the vent in the tank to allow the gravity flow is either in the back of the station, or in the non attainment pollution cities like Austin, Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio vented back into the tanker with stage II vapor recovery.

Now that's for keeping the fuel and vapors in the system, not necessarily worrying about dirt or water.

I hauled fuel from a small bobtail 2000 gal. truck from 16 to 54 years old, and I never ruined a batch of fuel or heard of it by getting dirt in it.

I've checked the tank levels with a stick thousands of times, and sometimes you can feel the sediment of rust or dirt in the bottom, but it always stays there if the suction tube is installed at 5 inches above the bottom like it should be.

When the station pumps your fuel, the filter in their pump will slow down to nothing if any dirt was to get sucked up.

If you found unfiltered fuel (highly unlikely), then, your car fuel filter and or pump will plug up, your car will surge a lot, and quit until fixed.

There is absolutely no way to squirt dirt through the injectors.

Engine oil gets dirt inside only one way; through the air filter or intake leak.

10 ppm dirt in 1year of running in West Texas is almost nothing, and virgin analysis of this oil has shown around 4ppm from Mobil as an anti-foam agent.

And as I predicted, the 06's are starting to show up so it's BS that it's limited to 04's and 05's.

2006 with like 50k

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2689/4398958789_85f572283f.jpg


It's amazing that such a tiny engine puts out so much power.

Back to the topic, has it been mentioned on here that if you're using magnets on your oil pan and/or oil filter, your UOA may say that you have minimal wear when you in fact do not?

do yall think those hard working, hard squeezing rotor stationary gears is what is causing a lot of the oil breakdown?

So how many here with UOAs showing low viscosity, are running in the 9-9.5k range during their daily carbon burns? I used to, but when I realized how much more heat is generated in that RPM range, I've slowed my roll for daily carbon burns to 7.5-8k. I still run it to 9-9.5k on occasion, but not every day.

OD, I'm surprised to see that your 15w40 Rotella is showing up with low viscosity after only 2k miles!

If the fuel dilution is the culprit, is there any additive which can safely be added to the oil on a rotary, which would help to neutralize the gas some? Is it only a dilution issue, or is 2% gas in your oil going to breakdown the viscosity of the oil faster than 2% water in your oil would?

Back to the topic, has it been mentioned on here that if you're using magnets on your oil pan and/or oil filter, your UOA may say that you have minimal wear when you in fact do not?
It has not been mentioned because it's bunk.

...Unless somebody has invented a magnet that grabs copper, chromium, aluminum, and lead and is about to become a gazillionaire as a result. Those are the wear metals you have to get through before you get to the iron. And the filter itself is going to catch any significant iron anyway. If you doubt me, email Blackstone and ask them directly, then post their response here.

So how many here with UOAs showing low viscosity, are running in the 9-9.5k range during their daily carbon burns? I used to, but when I realized how much more heat is generated in that RPM range, I've slowed my roll for daily carbon burns to 7.5-8k. I still run it to 9-9.5k on occasion, but not every day.
I guess my UOAs show low viscosity, and I track mine and rev the snot out of it. But just try and stop me from running to 9000 RPM every day. I have to, it's on my license plate:
http://www.rx8club.com/image.php?u=40296&dateline=1270779783&type=profile :evil_laug

lol, well on that note, a filter only collects something like 20% of the oil that passes through it.

/\ in Series 1 yes, Series II's ALL Engine Oil goes through Oil Filter First, unless your oil filter (S2) is blocked and in by pass mode.

My Filtermag catches HEAPS of ultra fine metal below 25 micron, which an Oil Filter can not catch.
It is like a Black Toothpaste...similar to Transmission and Diff magnet drain plugs in ALL Mazda's.

BUNK it is not...I guess you would rather have this floating around in Engine...

And I guess you can tell me why Mazda for the first time put an internal sump magnet in the Series II's?, since 1985?, because it is Bunk, I guess.

Better than Nothing..

I know you can get a bypass oil filter, or you can add a spin on bypass filter/dual filter system to the car if your that worried about it and catch something like 99% of all particles.

BUNK it is not...I guess you would rather have this floating around in Engine...

Read more carefully: It is BUNK that a magnet will mean a UOA will show less wear. Unless your magnet catches lead, chromium, copper, and aluminum. In which case you should patent it as you are about to become a bazillionaire.

If you don't believe me, ask Blackstone directly and post their response here.

lol, well on that note, a filter only collects something like 20% of the oil that passes through it.

Huh?

If the fuel dilution is the culprit, is there any additive which can safely be added to the oil on a rotary, which would help to neutralize the gas some? Is it only a dilution issue, or is 2% gas in your oil going to breakdown the viscosity of the oil faster than 2% water in your oil would?

2% gas immediately dilutes the viscosity.

That's another reason 5w20 is too thin for the 8.

The viscosity of water is not too far off for a bearing, but ANY water in the oil especially with antifreeze is a bearing killer, and shows that the water jacket seals are leaking; Big problem!

Water has good cohesion, but is a polar molecule that repels so it won't stick to what it's supposed to lube, and doesn't feel slick.

Good stuff. Fuel dilution was the reason I decided I want to get my injectors flow tested and cleaned. But, we will see when my next UOA comes back if I bother to do that or not. I have 120,000 on my injectors so i think it is time but some other stuff I have read indicates that as long as they are clean, they can last forever.

I can say though that I replaced my OMP lines and oil injectors and my oil injectors were clogged and fouled up. I will post up pics soon.

Oil sample is being sent off in the morning, I even splurged for the TBN :P it says 4 weeks, lets hope not.

So it took 16 days to get the lab results back, and they don't look good. Lesson here for others? Don't race your RX8 lol. Although it does say these results are normal for a vehicle that is raced.

Chromium 5X the normal amount :(
Iron 2X the normal amount :(
Lead 6X the normal amount :(

The oil however did hold up. Some of the numbers are pretty impressive for the heat, and abuse the vehicle withstood in the Texas summer. I am curious though since the car is tracked should I change the oil more, or Since the oil itself showed great results should I wait longer to change it. I am going to go with a time frame this time. This was a 6 month oil change. Since this car is not a daily driver the miles added up a lot slower. I am going to do a 3 or 4 month change and see what the difference is. The engine does have 81K on it at this point, oil filter is K&N performance gold, coils plugs and wires are at 65K, Transmission and Diff have less than 4 month old Redline Oil on them. I will get those oils checked on the yearly clean ups. The diff I take apart and clean before refilling, the transmission gets a drain and fill.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s155/docbeech/Oil%20Results%20RX8/OilResults19Jan2011copy.jpg

It actually says for a race engine. Just because you tracked a bit bit doesn't mean much, Most of the other UOA's posted have track days in Texas on them. Castrol has typically tested well and I ran 10W30 GTX in my second motor for 75,000 miles and it tested fairly well but you may want to look into a good synthetic and the SOHN adapter. 0W-40 all the way. But the damage may be done already though so you may want to get a compression test just to make sure. IF you have good compression then start premixing and run the SOHN so you can add some good synthetic oil in the motor.

Thanks for posting up.

Blackstone still doesn't know WTF they are talking about when it comes to rotaries. How the F is the chrome from the apex seals going to get into the oil? :dunno: It can't, obviously.

Nonetheless, Doc, those numbers are very bad. You've hurt your motor. Running 5W-30 is clearly a mistake. Minimum viscosity for the track is 10W-30. I track the snot out of my car and run Rotella-T 15W-40 now and don't see the drop in viscosity you see on your report. Nor do I see anywhere near the wear. But I've never run the 5W-30 or the utterly inadequate factory-recommend (PTOOOIE!) 5W-20.

Blackstone still doesn't know WTF they are talking about when it comes to rotaries. How the F is the chrome from the apex seals going to get into the oil? :dunno: It can't, obviously.

Nonetheless, Doc, those numbers are very bad. You've hurt your motor. Running 5W-30 is clearly a mistake. Minimum viscosity for the track is 10W-30. I track the snot out of my car and run Rotella-T 15W-40 now and don't see the drop in viscosity you see on your report. Nor do I see anywhere near the wear. But I've never run the 5W-30 or the utterly inadequate factory-recommend (PTOOOIE!) 5W-20.


Yep, and look at REDRX3RX8's UOA with Mobil1 0W-40, he had few track (not autox) weekends on his UOA. I switched back to Mobil1 0W-40 recently but ran 5W-40 Rotella T6 with good results.

Doc, I don't know how your oil got that thin with only a trace of fuel, but you need to thicken it up to at least 10 cst.

I've never seen 5w20 that thin even, and yes, there's those internal gears that have chrome.

I notice that Mobil 1 0w40 specs have changed slightly to 3.8 HTHS viscosity instead of 3.7.

Minimum HTHS viscosity for minimum wear is considered 3.5.

What you're running might be a close to a 2.0 HTHS viscosity.

Considering that its the seals that give way before the crank or bearings, you probably haven't ruined it, yet.

I still like Mobil 1 0w40; many expensive cars are factory filled with it now.

I had a compression test done a couple of months back. The vehicle passed. I was there and saw the results myself. I was hoping to get a new engine lol, but we see how that worked out. I will switch to 10W40 and see where it goes. I am considering running the factory recommended since this engine is closing in on 100,000K. The miles on the car were 80700 when I sent that in. Its the original engine. I originally believed that they replaced th engine after talking to a rep on the phone. Then when I actually went and looked at the report it wasnt the engine that was replaced. It was just the plugs, wires, coils, battery, and starter were all done at the same time. Found that out when I had a compression test done. Vehicle passed the compression test. I am going back in 6 months around June to get another test done. My vehicle starts right up hot or cold. Never misfires, never stutters. Its seen wide open throttle for time on end. I redline it all day long.

Good to hear!

Back in the 70's 10w40 was the best gasoline engine oil, but we had a mechanic ranting about how he had a Ford Escort that was ruined from hard carbon (it was probably misfiring and leftover half burned gas was doing it since we didn't have any other complaints).

The lastest oil formulations for gasoline are 0w20, 0w30, 0w40, and 5w40 for heavy diesel engines (even 0w40 can be used in some car diesels).

the cst readings are why I switched from castrol. rotarys have to have really good film strenght oil to properly lubricate and cool,
I am also begining to believe that we may need better "crankcase" ventilation than we have.
Too much condensation being seen in the cooler areas, and how the hell is fuel getting in the oil? Makes you wonder. If fuel is getting into the oil then it has to past the side seals and side seal lubrication/cleaness is critical in this engine. May need a true vacuum line to the oil pipe and not just the one at the intake?
OD

Many pass the compression tests but is your engine closer to the minimum spec or right at the highest? I would say, have your car dynoed along with another 8 and see where you stand. If you are only putting down 160-170WHP then you know what will eventually happen.

Oh I have no doubt the engine will fail, the question is will it fail inside of warranty. I was about mid range on the last compression test. I was hoping to fail or be really borderline. You can count that I wont be using higher grade oils until then. I will be using what Mazda recommends. Plus a Mazda oil filter. That way they can't complain about it. I am following their guidelines. They want us using 5-30 (which is the new factory recommended oil) then so be it. Unfortunately I was around 108-112PSI for each rotor. Which well we know thats not low enough lol.

OD what oil?

I'm going to throw a wrench into the party here and I've got a hunch it will rub some the wrong way. Tough. Get over it. With the exception of mere curiosity on one occassion, I have never sent anything to Blackstone for analysis and never will. I think it is too easy to get caught up in the numbers and what each person THINKS they mean. Yes that means Blackstone or even BITOG too! I have gone as little as 1500 miles between oil changes and 10,000 miles between oil changes only topping off as necessary. Regardless of what a UOA may tell me, in the 5 RX-7's that I've had and hundreds of thousands of rotary miles that I have logged, I have NEVER once had a rotary engine failure. I have never had one that has had mileage or emissions suffer as a result of the oil. Was there ever wear inside my engines? Of course there was. Knowing it wouldn't change anything. Basically what I'm saying is send in for a UOA only for the curiosity and then throw it away and go about your regular oil change intervals with a good quality oil. Preferably with a good synthetic. Then relax. Don't worry. Enjoy your car.

^way stick a fork in this thread RG. That makes sense to me have driven many vehicles with least concern for oil and when to change them until I bought the 8. I just like your thought process and from other reliable sources I have read here I think many here over think the oil issue especially for us DD people of RX.

Thanks for the input, god, but this thread is not for debating the value of oil reports, it's for comparing them. :suspect:
We went down that path and expended a bunch of posts on it already. Go back and read 'em so we don't have to go down it again. ;)

And if you haven't ever blown up a rotary, you're not pushing hard enough on the right pedal. :mdrmed: (Me neither. Never blown one up yet. :wink2:)

It's freaking oil ;) It is always way cheaper than engines :)

Pick an oil and change interval that fits your philosophy and stick to it......

Personally I like 5-40 full synthetic...and fancy expensive oil filters :)

But I also built a 300 lb doghouse...best damn doghouse you ever saw.. radiant heated floor, insulated, nice roof....removable top for cleaning.....but it didn't keep the dog from getting hit by a car :)

Back on-topic...

This change was done prematurely as I had run a bunch of track days (5?) on it and wanted to change it before running a bunch more. Viscosity was still not great. All previous tests were done with 10W-30.
http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=167400&stc=1&d=1295570461

Hmm 1500 miles and your viscosity stayed up. I might try a 2000 mile change with those results and see what happens. Mine dropped to 6 lol.

I do see you are running Rotella T though, So I am guessing you have no cat right?

I have always used uoa like i would use a dyno. it is user specific.
I was eating up viscoisty in 1.5K miles with 10/40 castrol gt. So I switched to deisal Rotella with good results. My cst stays up ok with it, valvoline racing 20/50 and the higher viscosity synthetics. I havent tried Mobil one
i was also curious to fuel dilution especially after tracking. I did have a very small issue.
Needed to really get my oil temps up.
I do not run a cat.
Its a tool can can be used

So your viscosity was falling off a bit. So what? What happened? What was it causing? A viscosity number falling off doesn't mean anything if it isn't hurting anything. It doesn't even imply anything bad is happening. If cSt got down to 2, then I'd be scared. If it was falling from 10 to 8, big deal.

mine dropped to 6 which I think is a bit low.

RG I had more than 30% copper showing on the front bearing on 2 engines that had less than 40K miles on them.

Back on-topic...

This change was done prematurely as I had run a bunch of track days (5?) on it and wanted to change it before running a bunch more. Viscosity was still not great. All previous tests were done with 10W-30.


It is interesting that your viscosity numbers with the heavier oil aren't that much higher, especially since the other numbers responded so well. Did you have twice as many track days on the previous OCIs?

wankelbolt,

Considering that Rotella T 15w40 has about a 15cst @100C, that 9cst @ 100C that Blackstone measured is really low.

I can see that there's some gas from prior changes, but not enough to hurt, and even many piston engines show that much.

My point is that your oil analysis should show about 12 or 13 cst even considering that you only drain about 60% oil out each time.

So if you're running the second batch of rotella T 15w40, the viscosity ought to be right by now.

I will note that I actually drain 5.5 quarts for each go around. Not just a drain and fill, but I get the car up at an angle to drain oil coolers as well. So instead of the normal 3 quart I get almost all but 1.5 quart out on average. I actually take the time to drain the coolers.

you can actually get more oil out by not using the oil drain plug. Use a vacuum pump instead.
When we Ga club guys had a tuner session and several of us installed Mazmarts oil bypass mod we measured what was left in the pan after fulling draining it through the oil plug. We have pics on that thread somewhere=look it up-- it will surprise you.
OD

you can actually get more oil out by not using the oil drain plug. Use a vacuum pump instead.
When we Ga club guys had a tuner session and several of us installed Mazmarts oil bypass mod we measured what was left in the pan after fulling draining it through the oil plug. We have pics on that thread somewhere=look it up-- it will surprise you.
OD


I just got a Mityvac oil extractor for Christmas, I'm itching to use it. I may just change my oil just to try it :lol:

Okay here are the results from the last run of Rotells T6 5W-40. Looks pretty good. Glad to see my fuel dilution percentage is down. That was worrying me.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5215/5405404751_0b6b1e256f_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5405404751/)

The silicone is still high but my bet is that it is due to the excessive amount of RTV used by the reman plant when they rebuilt the engine.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4453405582_98cef4fe77.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/4453405582/)

I realize we are in different climates but mine looks alot worse with the Rotella 10W30.

Here is ganseg's UOA

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2764/4390637228_310a2747b0_o.jpg

Interesting. Different formulation? What type of driving do you do daily? I always let my car warm up before going anywhere. I have a short drive to work so by letting her get all the way warm, I can rev her out on the access road in front of my office and get oil temps in the 200F range.

My trip to work is 27 miles one way - mostly freeway. My oil was tested during the winter and my car takes 10 miles to get up to temp. Mine was a conventional oil and the viscosity was below what I want after 2,000 miles. My fuel dilution was higher - strange given no idling.

you may have a clogged injector, getting a lot of blow by or your crankcase is not getting vented well?

Okay guys, here is a sample I ran for Grungepup. He has a 2007 GT with about 40k on the original engine. He changes the oil every 3k and up until 36,000 miles it was dealer 5W20.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5015/5407309753_93f60bb46c_o.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5407309753/)

please dont hate me for asking :lol: how do I go about getting my oil tested?

I live in Tampa, FL and use RP 5w20 while using Idemitsu through a sohn

please dont hate me for asking :lol: how do I go about getting my oil tested?

I live in Tampa, FL and use RP 5w20 while using Idemitsu through a sohn

Seriously dude? I mean the phone number and website are on every report posted in this thread.

I noticed that after posting :rofl:

Everyones report is showing the levels of "wear" they said I have. But why are our levels all high :P I have now gotten a chance to see other reports showing high levels of chrome and iron. Or what they call high? Plus they are claiming the fuel issue which we just can't avoid. All of us have levels of fuel city driving or not. Maybe we should call them and have them take a look into it.

Just ordered my kit, I have about 2000 miles left before an oil change but I am interested to see the readings on a 4500mi engine

Doc I think a couple of things are going on that are showing these results?
1st--those big ole stationary gears ( particular only to the rotary engine) are chewing up our oil. Its like asking a motor oil to do a transmissions work?
2- It is more difficult to adequently vent this crankcase than many may think. The stock system sucks.
3- most people have not added a magnet to their oil systems. To me that is a no brainer.
4- premature front bearing wear has shown up in many engines. Its important to get the oil flow up and to use the right film strenght oil.
Any way talking about oil is a real slippery subject.
OD

1st--those big ole stationary gears ( particular only to the rotary engine)


And motorcycles that share gear oil with the crankcase.
And the old A-series engine.

Not everyone is showing the wear doc. My chromium was very low. And like I said the silicon rating in mine is thrown off do to all the excess RTV silicone that was used during the rebuild. I have tested many samples and for the most part the synthetics just do better in my car. I will post up the results of my Mobil1 0W-40 as soon as I get it back.

Like it has been said before, the numbers on the bottle do not mean much. Pick a good oil, use it, change it often, test it, and if it performs well use it. If not, try something else. And if you are not premixing and/or running the SOHN then you are on borrowed time.

Fuel is difficult to measure. Since it is volitile, time effects how much is in the oil at the time of the test. I just know mine is high and it hurts the viscosity of the oil. So I need to balance the expense of changing oil every 2,000 to keep it from getting too bad vs the wear on my engine of a longer interval with more fuel degradation.

I think direct injection engines are having problems with fuel in the oil too. I just wish I new of what oil(s) can deal with it better.

yeah the fuel issue was worrying me but the last couple of tests have not shown a problem with fuel. I have made some changes in terms of tunes but nothing that should have effected excess fuel in the oil. I am actually getting my injectors cleaned, balanced, and flow tested soon so we will see what effect that has if any at all.

These tests are also less acurate because well we aren't sending in oil filters. I am going to talk to the company we send the aircraft oil into and see what they have on file. When aircraft oil is sent in, we also have to send in the oil filter. They pull all the particulates out of the filter and measure the entire system, not just a crank case sample. I will get a hold of them and see what they can do, its a bit more money, but the results are a lot more advanced as well.

I should also note that I have hard drive magnets on my oil pan around the drain plug and on the oil filter.

Yeah thats going to capture all those metals :P

Yeah thats going to capture all those metals :P

Yeah, I know they won't but I wonder what real effect they have on the test results. I do know cutting the filter open shows the pasty build up that is metal.

...I am going to talk to the company we send the aircraft oil into and see what they have on file. When aircraft oil is sent in, we also have to send in the oil filter. ...

Very cool! The guy (Terry Dyson) that does the high end analysis for Blackstone charges $100. I toy'ed with the idea of doing that, but decided the kids college was more important. It would be fun though to learn more.

I wasn't running magnets at the time of the above oil test, but I do now. It cost me $35 and I know it catches some crap.

Does the oil in our filters come in thru the middle and then out thru the media? If so, the stuff the magnets collect would have gone around again.

I bought 4 strong 1" x 1.5" magnets at Lowes and put 2 on the oil filters of each vehicle I have. On the 8, I had to put a large tie to keep them on straight (g forces).

I'm testing about half the iron that others are, and I intend on running 5k miles oil changes.

On my Dodge Dakota 4.7l v8 I run 10k on the same oil with same good results.

To me the magnets are close to theoretical BS, but I think they keep a few iron particles straight jacketed; I've seen a filter opened that had a magnetized pattern of iron on the inside (not mine).

magnets are not bs.
You would be surprised at how often the oil filter is bypassed by the oil in our engine. Yep that is right. Oil is flowing without going through the filter medium. That is one reason that Mazda redesigned the oil system in the S2 model. Read about it.
I use the filter mag that summit racing sells---great little gadget. When I cut the first filter open after running it --i saw hard evidence that it works. There was a thin film of pasty material everywhere the magnet touched. This is with a 3K mile oil change.
I dont run a car without a strong magnet in the oil system somewhere.
OD

The ones I bought supposedly are designed for high temps. I don't know if that is a real issue or not, but these buggers are strong. They are from www.kjmagnetics.com. I lay them vertically around just under 1/2 of the outside of the filter.

OD, I hear ya!

I like a simple mod like the magnets that helps some and anyone can do.

:lol: try SCSI hard drive magnets. I accident dropped one and it attached itself to the firewall and I had to use a flat head and pliers to remove it.

Mine have been on several filters and on the pan for a long time now. They are hard as hell to remove from the pan and the filter on purpose so there is no chance they are falling off due while driving.

Ebay's not bad for Neo magnets, just make sure you get ones with a decent temperature rating...

summitracing.com has magnets designed for race conditions. you can get them at 75lbs of force or 150lbs. Good luck getting that off if you accidently drop it.

If you guys want I can get my hands on some hard drive magnets. All it would cost you is shipping.

have you guys ever thought of blocking the oil coolers in cold weathers so all the oil could get move around to get the petrol out?

I did that and it wasn't enough. It is amazing - I can drive all the way to work and not get to 180 degrees. My drive is 27 miles one way on the freeway.

OldDragger went one step further and blocked both the front and back of his last winter. One person suggested to me to insulate my oil pan during winter. I haven't gone further than just blocking the coolers. I also make an extra effort to warm it up by accelerating harder near the end of my drive.

I currently have my radiator 100% blocked (some air still gets around the block, obviously), and one cooler blocked and water temp stays right at 180-185 down to 20° or less. I keep them blocked until the temp gets above 50°. Before I started blocking my temps would be 150-160° in anything below about 40°.

Note that the excessive cooling capacity is a good thing. Mazda learned the lesson the hard way with the FD where there wasn't nearly enough.

I can drive at 80mph with 70 deg ambient, and my water temp stays around 179-181; right around temp for thermostat opening.

Cool enough, eh?

Ganseg, if you look on BITOG, many fuel injected cars give 1.8% fuel in the oil; not just something the 8 does.

Your solution is easy.

Run 40 weight oil, and since you're in really cold winter country, run 0w40.

It'll still flow and crank at any temp that you'll go outside.

9cst is too thin for the 8; it needs to test at at least 12cst.

I did go to synthetic 0W40 for winter. Still need to decide if I will do heavy conventional in summer or do synthetic year around. The guy that sells Legend 2 stroke oil says synthetics being injected or premixed build up a surface that for some reason isn't conducive to a seal. Strangely enough, after 800 miles of using Legend SR 2T, my car started pulling harder. I don't think it was just psycho, because I wasn't even thinking about it at the time. So how this relates is while I am running synthetic in my pan, I am pumping in synthetic while I am premixing the Legend SR.

Yeah, See you're doing everything right: you can tell that premixing helps. I use Mobil 1 MX2t (stash since discontinued), Mobil 1 0w40 (pan and injected-no sohn).

So my 07 6spd auto uses about 1/2 quart in 2k miles counting days not tracking which is almost nothing. I make sure that I mix enough 4-6oz. per 12 gal. tank to use a quart of 2t in 2k miles, so my theory is that at twice more use of premix should over power any sump injected oil residew. (Or also do a track day once a month.)

When multi grade oils showed up in the 60's they would take (and still do) a light oil like 10w and add viscosity index improvers (stp) to get it to not thin out too much at operating temps.

STP is known to cause hard carbon, but the modern synthetics are made outta ester mixtures. They used to have seal swelling issues, but most refiners fixed that with the right mixture now.

Most marketers don't known their product (sorta like car salemen) so just keep premixing, run any synthetic, and don't worry.

I use 0w40 year round; in fact for a whole year for 5k miles and several track days.

My UOA is as good as it gets, and I'm at not even close to the silicon (dirt) limit of 12 or any metal wear issues.

Yeah, See you're doing everything right: you can tell that premixing helps. I use Mobil 1 MX2t (stash since discontinued), Mobil 1 0w40 (pan and injected-no sohn).

So my 07 6spd auto uses about 1/2 quart in 2k miles counting days not tracking which is almost nothing. I make sure that I mix enough 4-6oz. per 12 gal. tank to use a quart of 2t in 2k miles, so my theory is that at twice more use of premix should over power any sump injected oil residew. (Or also do a track day once a month.)

When multi grade oils showed up in the 60's they would take (and still do) a light oil like 10w and add viscosity index improvers (stp) to get it to not thin out too much at operating temps.

STP is known to cause hard carbon, but the modern synthetics are made outta ester mixtures. They used to have seal swelling issues, but most refiners fixed that with the right mixture now.

Most marketers don't known their product (sorta like car salemen) so just keep premixing, run any synthetic, and don't worry.

I use 0w40 year round; in fact for a whole year for 5k miles and several track days.

My UOA is as good as it gets, and I'm at not even close to the silicon (dirt) limit of 12 or any metal wear issues.

can you post your UOA here?

Also I would love to see an UOA of the engine that had low compression

I plan on starting UOAs once I start changing. We'll try at 3,000 first and see how it looks. Just put Valvoline 10w40 synthetic in.

Nadrealista,

My UOA is on page 11 of this thread, 12-22 post by 9krpmrx8.

Nadrealista,

My UOA is on page 11 of this thread, 12-22 post by 9krpmrx8.

That one is on new engine..do you have one on your old engine just before it was replaced?

What I am trying to get at is are there any signs that engine is about give up or wearing at accelerated rate..which metals would shoot up?

Ok you got me, my UOA is post #267, posted by 9krpmrx8 because I'm too lazy to erase personal info.

I've seen pics of excess bearing wear during engine rebuild, and I've seen excess chrome on some UOA's that might be telling on this wear, but I've only heard of seal failure sometimes with excess carbon, and that problem is not related to oil flow system since it's once through oil.

Sometimes the water jacket seal can fail, and the UOA might tell you that (antifreeze in oil), but if you want to know health of engine, a compression check is best way.

I've blown two rotaries; the water seals on one where water would flood the chamber when cold and you'd have to heat the plugs to fire it, and I ran top end at 7k rpm until one apex seal blew, and still ran with loss of power.

You can run about any oil with any weight, and you're not gonna blow up in the sense that a engine throws a valve or piston and it seizes up on the spot.

UOA's are best to find oil change interval (condition of oil - not engine), fuel in the oil, silicon (dirt), and antifreeze. On the occasional high horse piston engine you can tell by lead, copper, and chrome that there's something wrong, but iron can be high (up to 150ppm), and not be having trouble.

bump..anyone done oil analysis lately?

I have a couple of samples ready I have just been too busy to send them off :lol:

I will do mine after I get back from VIR.

still have about 1000 miles before I am due to change it.

New member here. Just got into my 2010 8, previously in a 07 Speed 6 and have been in the likes of Audi, BMW, Nissan, and an EVO. It has been great to be able to analyze so many UOAs from these engines. However, one thing that sticks out is the use of HDEO (diesel oil). This was great in a DI app like the Speed or in a stressed Otto app like the EVO or Nissan 3.5LVQ. However, in our app that is designed to consume oil HDEO is not advisable. The heavy use of Calcium will leave significant ash behind and lead to deposits. Hence the move in the diesel world to low SAPS oils or salphated ash. This ash will clog the particulate filters. Only stirring some thought and open to discussion.

My 8 only uses 1/2 quart at 2k miles which is not much consumption for any engine, but I agree that diesel oils are formulated for heavy diesel soot, and gasoline oils are a little more on the antiwear additive side.

I've sold both kinds of oils for years, and the oil companies would get you to use the diesel oil in your whole fleet of trucks and gas pickups so it'd be "Goof Proof".

I've known guys getting 500-600k miles on a Chevy 350 out of 15w40 diesel oil in hot dusty weather, but my 8 won't go that far, and I do run a gasoline oil Mobil 1 0w40.

[COLOR=#41444c][FONT=Verdana]New member here. Just got into my 2010 8, Congrats on the new 8 and welcome to the forum. :beerchug:

However, one thing that sticks out is the use of HDEO (diesel oil). This was great in a DI app like the Speed or in a stressed Otto app like the EVO or Nissan 3.5LVQ. However, in our app that is designed to consume oil HDEO is not advisable. The heavy use of Calcium will leave significant ash behind and lead to deposits.

With due respect, baloney. What heavy use of calcium? Look at the UOAs on here: With 10W-30 Castrol GTX my calcium was 2292, 2199, 2275. With Rotella T 15W-40 the calcium is 2229. So there appears to be no difference. This is why I love UOAs; they debunk speculation and hearsay. :)

My 8 only uses 1/2 quart at 2k miles which is not much consumption for any engine, but I agree that diesel oils are formulated for heavy diesel soot, and gasoline oils are a little more on the antiwear additive side.

I've sold both kinds of oils for years, and the oil companies would get you to use the diesel oil in your whole fleet of trucks and gas pickups so it'd be "Goof Proof".

I've known guys getting 500-600k miles on a Chevy 350 out of 15w40 diesel oil in hot dusty weather, but my 8 won't go that far, and I do run a gasoline oil Mobil 1 0w40.

I'm confused. :scratchhe You say diesel oils are formulated for soot, but gasoline oil is formulated for less wear, then you say guys with gasoline 350's get half a million miles using diesel oil and you expect to get less using gasoline oil? Whoa. My head is spinning. :Eyecrazy: What are you trying to say? :dunno:

This is timely, cause I have diesel oil about to go into my engine before a track day. Are there some references on any issues with diesel in a gas engine or a rotary? (I still have the omp pumping crap into my engine - funny not doing what is best (sohn) just for the sake of a warranty.)

Are there some references on any issues with diesel in a gas engine or a rotary?

Um, yeah, somewhere I saw this thread where people were using diesel oil and then having the oil analyzed after running it hard. Not sure where I saw it... :rolleyes: :mdrmed:

I will post my recent 2 UOA's later today.

1/2 a quart consumption is not good, how many miles on your car?

Read this thread of mine:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=210194&highlight=theory

An yeah, I wonder where that thread is with the UOA's on Diesel oil :)

I will post my recent 2 UOA's later today.


Thanks, I have some samples to get out as well, I have just been busy with all the turbo stuff.

Um, yeah, somewhere I saw this thread where people were using diesel oil and then having the oil analyzed after running it hard. Not sure where I saw it... :rolleyes: :mdrmed:

Yep, mine is one of those UOAs with Rotella. Besides the proof you provided on Calcium, I was wondering if there are some good documents to read or other reliable source of info.

Ok so here are my 2UOA's:
First one is a mix of Shell Rotella 5w-40 and whatever was in there when I bought the car. That fill has 2 track days on it.
Latest one is 50/50 mix of Castrol Edge 5w-30 and Redline 5w-30/30wt racing oil. It also has 2 track days on it. I left the oil in the car. Should be good for another event or two.
I am not to concerned with lead since readline oil in known to produce spike in lead readings. I have a another track day this weekend.

One thing I did notice is that engine did run much smother once I poured redline oil in. I guess all that moly and zinc are doing it's job :-)

From now on I will run 50/50 mix of regular redline 5w-30 and redline 30wt racing oil.
http://i732.photobucket.com/albums/ww328/dajstadas/UOA.jpg

Not bad, but very low mileage OIC's. I'd be curious to see what it looks like fresh. When I tried German Castrol 0W-30 it broke down quite a bit in 1500 miles so I stopped using it.

Rotella T is very high in Zinc which is wonderful for your motor, and provides an anti-carbon coating. But if you have a cat its very bad causing catalytic converters to burn out faster.

Wonderful oil though, It has kept my 1958 motor running. Original engine btw.

I just wanted to flush whatever oil was in there when I bought the car.

5w-30 http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=2&pcid=21

30wt http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=14&pcid=1

Congrats on the new 8 and welcome to the forum. :beerchug:



With due respect, baloney. What heavy use of calcium? Look at the UOAs on here: With 10W-30 Castrol GTX my calcium was 2292, 2199, 2275. With Rotella T 15W-40 the calcium is 2229. So there appears to be no difference. This is why I love UOAs; they debunk speculation and hearsay. :)



I'm confused. :scratchhe You say diesel oils are formulated for soot, but gasoline oil is formulated for less wear, then you say guys with gasoline 350's get half a million miles using diesel oil and you expect to get less using gasoline oil? Whoa. My head is spinning. :Eyecrazy: What are you trying to say? :dunno:

Do some quick searches on the net regarding moves to low SAPS. Especially BMW and VW diesel apps. These OEM approved oils are down around a TBN of 6. An example fo such an oil would be Mobil 1 ESP.

Also, before quickly dismissing what I’m adding here is some of my background. I have been doing UOAs for 13 years for personal and racing apps. Additionally, I have personally been able to partake of Terry Dyson's vast wealth of knowledge and experience in addition to engineers at some of the major oil companies. Certainly nothing exclusive that couldn’t be had by others, but the experience and education did come at a cost.

Another additive that may help seal the combustion chamber is Magnesium. However, I believe like calcium it also leaves ash. FWIW, the UOAs you are getting here do not include sulphated byproduct contents or reliable insoluble counts. For this to be reliable one would need to spend upward of 60 to 130$US for the UOA.

This may be a good, quick read for some further damning HDEO in our apps. http://www.synforce.com.au/sulphated_ash.html. There are others.

I may have isolated calcium errantly. It would be the healthier add packs in general from HDEOs that would create long term deposit issues, all the while likely providing superior wear protection.

FYI I cannot directly release information I have gained from Terry from my UOAs for confidentiality reasons, but can certainly share in my own observations.

I'm confused. :scratchhe You say diesel oils are formulated for soot, but gasoline oil is formulated for less wear, then you say guys with gasoline 350's get half a million miles using diesel oil and you expect to get less using gasoline oil? Whoa. My head is spinning. :Eyecrazy: What are you trying to say? :dunno:

I'm debunking the guys theory that calcium or other additives in diesel engine oil won't allow gasoline engines to survive.

The rotary won't go the distance anyway with seals blowing, but it's not the oil quality.

I think the German oil specs define very several tests on engines considering the cost of those cars, so if you notice that gasoline Mercedes has only one oil that meets their spec: Mobil 1 0w40, and some of the cheaper German cars are known sludge monsters in which a diesel additive package might be just the thing.

I'll never run less than a 12 cst oil at operating temp on anything that I floorboard the gas, and that weight is Mobil 1 0w40.

1/2 a quart consumption is not good, how many miles on your car?

You should know; you saw it last month! :hahano:

I'm blogging from an alternate universe. ;)

I like that the oil spray is turned down so I can burn my own 2t premix at 3 times that rate. 1/2 oz per gallon (6-8 0z per fillup), and as you know I got the high vacuum reading.:fingersx:

I'm debunking the guys theory that calcium or other additives in diesel engine oil won't allow gasoline engines to survive.

The rotary won't go the distance anyway with seals blowing, but it's not the oil quality.

I think the German oil specs define very several tests on engines considering the cost of those cars, so if you notice that gasoline Mercedes has only one oil that meets their spec: Mobil 1 0w40, and some of the cheaper German cars are known sludge monsters in which a diesel additive package might be just the thing.

I'll never run less than a 12 cst oil at operating temp on anything that I floorboard the gas, and that weight is Mobil 1 0w40.
From what Ive seen on this site the Euros wont run M1 0w40 in our app.

Not implying theory, my apology if I implied so.

For those pondering at this point I see Valvoline 5w30 as the better option in our apps. RLI may be another option though I cant speak for their add pacs or the clean burn of their base stock.

HDEO may work well if used with a cleaning premix.

I've studied oil lit from Exxon since being a kid, and went to Exxon's distributor oil training school, and I've seen other's real world success.

In the 70's, some 240z guys working in some lab in Austin would come buy 10 cases of XD-3 40 diesel oil for their cars saying it was the best oil they found for holding up viscosity.

One guy ran the same oil in his 1980 Olds diesel for nearly 250k miles until the thermo stuck, and those diesels usually didn't last long (gas engine conversion GM experiment).

My opinion is that the 5w30 oils were early experiments into thinner gas saving oils, and back then were known to shear a lot.

That's why I'm a fan of the new ow oils, and I'd run 0w30 before 5w30 anyday, but 0w40 fror me.

So does anyone have oil test specs for Mazda rotaries like the German cars?

Tell me where so I can get new info, please.

I've studied oil lit from Exxon since being a kid, and went to Exxon's distributor oil training school, and I've seen other's real world success.

In the 70's, some 240z guys working in some lab in Austin would come buy 10 cases of XD-3 40 diesel oil for their cars saying it was the best oil they found for holding up viscosity.

One guy ran the same oil in his 1980 Olds diesel for nearly 250k miles until the thermo stuck, and those diesels usually didn't last long (gas engine conversion GM experiment).

My opinion is that the 5w30 oils were early experiments into thinner gas saving oils, and back then were known to shear a lot.

That's why I'm a fan of the new ow oils, and I'd run 0w30 before 5w30 anyday, but 0w40 fror me.

So does anyone have oil test specs for Mazda rotaries like the German cars?

Tell me where so I can get new info, please.

Esso's (Exxons) 0w40 XD-3 synthetic oil is some of the best I've used and, up until recently could be found for cheap on the shelves of Canadian Wallmarts.

Iluvrevs Rotella T6 has ACEA E9 rating which limits the ash to 1.0, which is not the best but not bad either.

Ideally one would like to run ACEA C1/C4 or GF-5 rated oil with lower ash limit. I found only two meeting that spec(C1/C4) - Fuchs TITAN GT1 Pro C-1 5W-30 and Motul 8100 Eco-clean+ 5W-30.

I track my car and daily dive it occasionally so I will stick with racing oils like redline.

here is a good place to get info on different oil specs:
http://www.lubrizol.com/EuropeanEngineOils/C408.html

You should know; you saw it last month! :hahano:

I'm blogging from an alternate universe. ;)

I like that the oil spray is turned down so I can burn my own 2t premix at 3 times that rate. 1/2 oz per gallon (6-8 0z per fillup), and as you know I got the high vacuum reading.:fingersx:


:lol: I burned more than half a quart the day of the Texas8.


WTF are you up too anyway :lol:

One guy ran the same oil in his 1980 Olds diesel for nearly 250k miles until the thermo stuck, and those diesels usually didn't last long (gas engine conversion GM experiment).

That's an oft-repeated falsehood. The Olds diesel was not a gas engine "conversion". Also failures had nothing to do with lubrication.

The primary causes for the poor reputation the otherwise excellent engine received were the corporate bean counters being too cheap to put a water separator in the fuel system, shitty diesel fuel, new-at-the-time torque-to-yield head bolts, and typical piss-poor training of the dealer network on the diesel and torque-to-yield bolts.

The Olds diesels didn't last because of bean counters, ignorance, and stupidity, not because of any "conversion" or flaw in the engine itself.

^Hey, I would've bought one if I needed a crew car to the oilfield, and they lasted longer than I'd keep the car.

I did mention that he went 284k miles approx. and the thermo stuck which could happen on any engine.

Didn't mean to step on your toe!

:lol: I burned more than half a quart the day of the Texas8.

WTF are you up too anyway :lol:

I'm waiting out all the chaos in America (fires, hail, tornadoes, flooding, fighting over others earned money, etc.).

Nobody has money here to fight over, but still lots of smiles. :smoker:

Another additive that may help seal the combustion chamber is Magnesium. However, I believe like calcium it also leaves ash.

I've not heard of good deposits for sealing since leaded gas was known to be shock absorber for older soft valve seats.

The concern for the renesis would be "can deposits build up around seals, and cause sticking and scoring?". Also,"could deposits plug up the exhaust, and/or the cat?".

There's not a open chamber like head where the oil can stay, and cook like piston engines either.

I've never run much diesel oil because I never had a diesel vehicle, but it works fine.

The oil refiners are always tweaking the formula, and I notice that M1 0w40 is down to 13.5 cst from 14., but the HTHS is 3.8 up from 3.7.

I don't need to hand wring over what might happen, any 10w40 SD from 1970 is good enough for the rotary, and/or any modern oil with lots of additives won't hurt it.

Yes, the current ACEA specs do reduce the ash to 1.0, however, you have other specs by VW and BMW requiring much lower. Additionally there are other oils such as Valvoline conventional which is currently at .80 per their data specs. Over the long run in an environment that necessitates combustion of oil this will add up. Obviously one could get around this by using boutique diesel oils with higher quality additives that would be better for tracking the cars.

Then there's the issue of the 0w oils, which require VII polymers. These have been a known issue since multi grades have first came out for creating significant deposits. Even with heavier group IV and V base stock usage oils like M1 0w40, Elf, Total, or Esso will still require these to obtain such a wide spread in viscosity. Note that M1 0w40 consistently shears to a high 30wt in many applications. Obviously VIIs are better now, but in heavier dose and in over the counter lubricants these still pose risk.

Deposit prevention is one of the main reasons why I like ester based oils like redline.

Deposits, if they form, can easily be taken care of with periodic seafom decarb or water steam clean..once, maybe twice a year would be just fine depending on the use and mileage.

^Hey, I would've bought one if I needed a crew car to the oilfield, and they lasted longer than I'd keep the car.

I did mention that he went 284k miles approx. and the thermo stuck which could happen on any engine.

Didn't mean to step on your toe!

Part of the reason I'm on this thread is to dispel the mythology and plain-old bullshit people casually spread.

Engine oil and the Olds diesel have in common that they are surrounded by oceans of mythology and bullshit. I'm doing my part to stop it rather than spread it. :)

Part of the reason I'm on this thread is to dispel the mythology and plain-old bullshit people casually spread.

Engine oil and the Olds diesel have in common that they are surrounded by oceans of mythology and bullshit. I'm doing my part to stop it rather than spread it. :)

Me, too!

Cite it when it comes, and give data for your rebuttle.

Yes, the current ACEA specs do reduce the ash to 1.0, however, you have other specs by VW and BMW requiring much lower. Additionally there are other oils such as Valvoline conventional which is currently at .80 per their data specs. Over the long run in an environment that necessitates combustion of oil this will add up. Obviously one could get around this by using boutique diesel oils with higher quality additives that would be better for tracking the cars.

Then there's the issue of the 0w oils, which require VII polymers. These have been a known issue since multi grades have first came out for creating significant deposits. Even with heavier group IV and V base stock usage oils like M1 0w40, Elf, Total, or Esso will still require these to obtain such a wide spread in viscosity. Note that M1 0w40 consistently shears to a high 30wt in many applications. Obviously VIIs are better now, but in heavier dose and in over the counter lubricants these still pose risk.

Maybe those deposits get burned, and flung off, since the only place they can hide and do damage is the combustion seals, and I put 300% more Mobil 2T anyway, which is lots of polyisobutylene, considered a lubricating cleaner.

If Mercedes thinks M1 0w40 is the best for their engines that's good enough, if not the best available, and they also think it works in their car diesels.

When I ran M1 10w30 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 10.9) it would test 10 cst in a 4.7l Dodge. When I run M1 0w40 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 13.5) it tests 12 cst in my 8 like it does in many other cars.

I don't care if they use tallow from cows, as long as my engine doesn't fail because of it.

Castrol 0w30 tests close to M1 0w40 at 12 cst @ 100 deg c so I think we have a weight claim fail mostly, not product trouble.

Know of any failed engines that 0w40 caused?

Maybe those deposits get burned, and flung off, since the only place they can hide and do damage is the combustion seals, and I put 300% more Mobil 2T anyway, which is lots of polyisobutylene, considered a lubricating cleaner.

If Mercedes thinks M1 0w40 is the best for their engines that's good enough, if not the best available, and they also think it works in their car diesels.

When I ran M1 10w30 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 10.9) it would test 10 cst in a 4.7l Dodge. When I run M1 0w40 (virgin oil 100 deg c cst 13.5) it tests 12 cst in my 8 like it does in many other cars.

I don't care if they use tallow from cows, as long as my engine doesn't fail because of it.

Castrol 0w30 tests close to M1 0w40 at 12 cst @ 100 deg c so I think we have a weight claim fail mostly, not product trouble.

Know of any failed engines that 0w40 caused?

None that I'm aware of. I've used with par results in my 3.5 vq's too. Porsche likes it too. However, speaking theoretically the heavier use of vii's could lead to deposits in the form of burnt plastic. Could not happen too if M1 is using top of the line vii's. Doubt it though at the low cost. The there is still the issue of ash at 1.2 perc. Again theoretically this could be an issue in a higher lube consumption app like the 8.

This idea of using ester based oil is probably the best assurance against deposits from what I can tell and I may go this depending on what I get from my Dyson analysis.

Is Eneos engine oil ester based? It is now avail a couple places local to me. I use their gear lube.

Hehe - it sounds like we should use their 0W50: ENEOS Motor Oil 0W50 is especially suited for sports cars with large engine displacements and high outputs.

Our engines are as big as the biggest motorcycle engines!

I think Flashwing posted some results of the Eneos. The results from his engine were OK, not bad, not great IIRC.

He tested the gear lube, which I am now running, showing that the GL5 wouldn't hurt the dif.

Is Eneos engine oil ester based? It is now avail a couple places local to me. I use their gear lube.

Hehe - it sounds like we should use their 0W50: ENEOS Motor Oil 0W50 is especially suited for sports cars with large engine displacements and high outputs.

Our engines are as big as the biggest motorcycle engines!

Ive heard that ENEOS is a group III blend or just group III, but cannot confirm. I do like their reputation and specs. Their UOAs dont show significant improvement, but then again its hard to gauge engine longengevity from UOAs.

All of theirs that say "fully synthetic" are not group III per BITOG.

Iluvrevs,

Oil users get as close to the formulas as we can by doing uoa's or voa's, but we aren't likely to hear much about the millions of test and chemical combinations that the refiners do.

Mobil did say somewhere that they mix a pao (group iv), and ester (group v) together in a certain ratio to maximize adhesion to metal parts, and neither seal swelling or seal shrinking.

Even people that analize oil like Dyson aren't privy to all the latest research in the oil company lab.

Used oil analysis mostly tells you if your air filter, water seal, and fuel system are working OK.

They don't tell you much about deposit control since the additives could be killing your cat, and you'd find out later.

Oil refining theory was pretty good in the 60's, and now there's trillions of miles of motor oil use data.

Car drivers have been the test for 50 years, and the refiners only have to look at a perceived problem, and try some additive on the oil (experiment on road vehicles by formula tweak), and see if that is better.

However, speaking theoretically the heavier use of vii's could lead to deposits in the form of burnt plastic. Could not happen too if M1 is using top of the line vii's. Doubt it though at the low cost. The there is still the issue of ash at 1.2 perc. Again theoretically this could be an issue in a higher lube consumption app like the 8.

Maybe you weren't around in the 60's when people poured STP (pint can of viscosity index improver) like mad into each oil change, and many engines went 300k miles.

If it hurts engines the oil companies wouldn't use it.

He tested the gear lube, which I am now running, showing that the GL5 wouldn't hurt.

That actually isnt true. There was a post by Buster on BITOG of a presentation done by M1 in 2006 lifting the use of Group III versus PAO due to superior availability in addition to near PAO technical features. Most beleive that they still use some PAO and possibly Esters especially in the 0w40 blend. They also use a good bit of AN from what Ive read.

I am not following - did you grab the right quote? My comment there was about Eneos Gear Lube in the diff.

I am not following - did you grab the right quote? My comment there was about Eneos Gear Lube in the diff.

No sorry. Was referring to the indication that M1 is Group IV and V.

For commentary from Penzoil on VII's (viscosity modifiers) please see http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=80.
31. I have a Direct Injection engine and it is highly suspected that using oil with a NOACK rating over 10% is not good for DI engines. Since Pennzoil Ultra™ is over 10% would Pennzoil® guarantee no deposits to form on the valves of DI engines?
Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines.
Unfortunately, offering a guarantee against deposits would be tough since so many other variables could impact the outcome.
If these are depositing on DI app valves they will deposit in the rotary as oil is consumed.
For extensive discussion regarding the impact of SAPS (ash) when oil containing them is consumed please see http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x546.html.
Further support to warn against using such oils in the rotary can be had through the diesel manufacturers requiring a reduction in these additives as well as the gasoline engine manufacturers requiring a reduction in SAPS to protect the CAT. Deposits are deposits and will collect if provided the home to collect on.

FWIW I am coming up on my next oil change (estimated in 3 weeks at my current rate of driving). I will be switching to 10w-40 RP for the summer season. I already have a kit and will be sending in my current sample of 5w-30 RP. It will be interesting to see how it fairs with 3000 miles on the oil and only 7000 (by the time of the OC) on the engine.

I can assume that they will come back and say that I can go longer between OCI's but better safe than sorry.

For commentary from Penzoil on VII's (viscosity modifiers) please see http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=72&Itemid=80.
31. I have a Direct Injection engine and it is highly suspected that using oil with a NOACK rating over 10% is not good for DI engines. Since Pennzoil Ultra™ is over 10% would Pennzoil® guarantee no deposits to form on the valves of DI engines?
Oil volatility is not a significant factor for inlet valve deposits in a direct injection gasoline engine. The significant factor is viscosity modifier type and concentration, so using fully synthetic narrow span viscosity grades such as 5W-20 is beneficial. In North America, there is no specification calling for NOACK of less than 10%. The most important thing for DI engines is engine design, to better prevent deposits on ITV’s (In Take Valves), since there is no fuel wash as in PFI (Port Fuel Injection) engines.
Unfortunately, offering a guarantee against deposits would be tough since so many other variables could impact the outcome.
If these are depositing on DI app valves they will deposit in the rotary as oil is consumed.
For extensive discussion regarding the impact of SAPS (ash) when oil containing them is consumed please see http://herkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514269543/html/x546.html.
Further support to warn against using such oils in the rotary can be had through the diesel manufacturers requiring a reduction in these additives as well as the gasoline engine manufacturers requiring a reduction in SAPS to protect the CAT. Deposits are deposits and will collect if provided the home to collect on.

ditto on less viscosity improvers is better..redline 5w-30 doesn't have any, it is full ester oil and costs about the same as RP oil.

there is one big difference between DI and rotary..rotary does get fuel spray all over the rotors, housing and intake ports..and there are no valves :-)

fuel system cleaners can also help to minimize deposits.

and again even if you do get deposits that's what the seafoam is for..it takes only an hour to do the seafoam treatment..

^Nadrealista,
That gas spray is the more likely culprit of carbon and deposits in the rotary.

That actually isnt true. There was a post by Buster on BITOG of a presentation done by M1 in 2006 lifting the use of Group III versus PAO due to superior availability in addition to near PAO technical features. Most beleive that they still use some PAO and possibly Esters especially in the 0w40 blend. They also use a good bit of AN from what Ive read.

I wasn't even reading BITOG five years ago, but I stand by my latest info that Mobil said somewhere that they use PAO and Ester blend now. Some other esters like Redline seem to have very good specs, but M1 is worldwide, has massive R & D, and Mercedes likes it.

I'm running M1 0w40 in my Dodge 4.7l with good results at 10k mile changes (specs say use 5w30).

^Nadrealista,
That gas spray is the more likely culprit of carbon and deposits in the rotary.

probably combination of unburned gas and oil..ester based oil, drive it like you stole it combined with frequent use of a good fuel system cleaner is probably a good idea to keep the deposits down.

not sure what effect premix has on the deposits?

Are we trying to reinvent the wheel here ? I thought by now the last 4-5 posts were common knowledge :dunno:

I wasn't even reading BITOG five years ago, but I stand by my latest info that Mobil said somewhere that they use PAO and Ester blend now. Some other esters like Redline seem to have very good specs, but M1 is worldwide, has massive R & D, and Mercedes likes it.

I'm running M1 0w40 in my Dodge 4.7l with good results at 10k mile changes (specs say use 5w30).

Here's the link. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1995447&page=1. The post was made in 2010. GC scans will also serve to refute the base stuck of most M1 formulas not including in majority Grp III.

probably combination of unburned gas and oil..ester based oil, drive it like you stole it combined with frequent use of a good fuel system cleaner is probably a good idea to keep the deposits down.

not sure what effect premix has on the deposits?


There are regular use products that would likely help as premix and would also enhance the lubricity of the fuel. I’d imagine a 2 cycle type premix wouldn’t serve to clean as well, but a good one shouldn’t deposit either. From as high as Blackstone is showing fuel readings on this site Id imagine fuel could be part of the problem too if its not completely burning. As you point out the Italian tune up won’t hurt at all and probably help preserve a cleaner engine. The same can be said for Ester/Group V based oils with the inherent solvency. They will serve to clean as they lubricate and typically burn cleaner from what I understand. Finally, a group II base stock is also more solvent than the Group III and certainly most group IVs so they are likely a safer bet if one doesn’t want to spend the money on the ester oils.

Here's the link. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1995447&page=1. The post was made in 2010. GC scans will also serve to refute the base stuck of most M1 formulas not including in majority Grp III.

ok, I bit, and here's what I got.

XOM dumbed down their M1 to be able to sell alot.

"Even the German cars (hardest to lube) will barely notice, and the longlasting benefits can be utilized by more cars for a cleaner world fleet."

Cars and old people gotta die at some point or they're gonna stink up the place. :eek:

And yet another report, running "diesel" oil for the second report in a row. Not much calcium, less than Castrol GTX (every earlier report). Lots more zinc and boron. Nothing else notable except low flashpoint. And viscosity finally held within limits. You guys can talk about deposits all you want, I'm sold on diesel oil. These engines aren't going to last the 300,000 miles that would be required for it to matter anyway.

I'm still not convinced Blackstone has a clue about Wankels. Chrome from apex seals? No. Not even from the housings. It's coming from eccentric shaft main bearings.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=171605&stc=1&d=1304565445

And yet another report, running "diesel" oil for the second report in a row. Not much calcium, less than Castrol GTX (every earlier report). Lots more zinc and boron. Nothing else notable except low flashpoint. And viscosity finally held within limits. You guys can talk about deposits all you want, I'm sold on diesel oil. These engines aren't going to last the 300,000 miles that would be required for it to matter anyway.

I'm still not convinced Blackstone has a clue about Wankels. Chrome from apex seals? No. Not even from the housings. It's coming from eccentric shaft main bearings.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=171605&stc=1&d=1304565445

it's a good thing you have that thick oil in there because the gas is about to eat a bearing.

Probably an injector drip, but it needs to be fixed.

Maybe some Techron treatment for a tank or two or just take em out?

which oil did you run on 11/05/09 uoa? that one did best

Yeah I really liked the Rotella and it's cheap. I was having a fuel dilution issue but that went away when I started premixing crazy amounts when my oil injectors failed. My oil consumption is awesome now with the new injectors and lines so I have backed way off on premixing the gas to about 4 oz per tank.

That UOA looks good though otherwise.

it's a good thing you have that thick oil in there because the gas is about to eat a bearing.
Probably an injector drip, but it needs to be fixed.
Maybe some Techron treatment for a tank or two or just take em out?
Hmm. Every rotary I've ever had (several) has had high fuel (presumably) dilution in the oil. Nonetheless, I will add getting the injectors cleaned/rebuilt/balanced to the short list of things to do this Summer. I'm putting in a couple high-flow injectors as part of the Turblowsion™ project.

which oil did you run on 11/05/09 uoa? that one did best
All intervals except the last two were Castrol GTX 10W-30. I don't think it was the best based on the loss of viscosity. I think there were a couple of long road trips on that interval. I'm going to keep a better log of what I do on this and future intervals. (Which I should have been doing all along...)

ok, I bit, and here's what I got.

XOM dumbed down their M1 to be able to sell alot.

"Even the German cars (hardest to lube) will barely notice, and the longlasting benefits can be utilized by more cars for a cleaner world fleet."

Cars and old people gotta die at some point or they're gonna stink up the place. :eek:


I personally don’t see the reduction of PAO, AN, or Esters from M1 an overall reduction in its quality. Group IIIs have their benefits over PAO with the better additive solubility and a little better solvency. And the base stocks can be nearly as stable and pure it makes good sense to use them for most cars.
FWIW Ive not seen substantial enough wear reduction, if any at all, from systhetics over Group IIIs and IIs.

I personally don’t see the reduction of PAO, AN, or Esters from M1 an overall reduction in its quality. Group IIIs have their benefits over PAO with the better additive solubility and a little better solvency. And the base stocks can be nearly as stable and pure it makes good sense to use them for most cars.
FWIW Ive not seen substantial enough wear reduction, if any at all, from systhetics over Group IIIs and IIs.

Exactly!

There were lots of good oils 40 years ago, so worrying about what the oil companies formulas might do to your engine is like day trading stocks instead of calming your money down in good mutual funds.

Ill play... just ordered my sample kit, ill post back in the following weeks with what I find.

FYI I run Royal Purple 5W-30 w/ Idemitsu premix @ ~8 o.z. a tank on roughly 3K miles on my reman

Wankel, Im not being to disregard the merits of HDEO. I only argue from the deposits perspective for the sake of warranty or engine life. From what Ive seen and as you point out these rotaries will not last the life of an otto engine. So, my argument and thought was that if Mazda is so willing to replace these engines one may as well go with an approved oil. However, if I was tracking one of these Id go with HDEO or even better a niche HDEO like Redline or Renewable Lubricants Inc,

That being said I still dont see any benefit of HDEO over PCMO from the UOAs presented here, but I will go back and plot these all out.

If I was tracking mine (and I will be soon) and I didnt want the expense of a niche synthetic an HDEO 15w40 such as Rotella or Delvac would be my oil of choice. My calcs tell me that its 20$/month to run an niche synthetic over an over the counter synthetic. So, its a no brainer for me.

Exactly!

There were lots of good oils 40 years ago, so worrying about what the oil companies formulas might do to your engine is like day trading stocks instead of calming your money down in good mutual funds.

It only pays to worry about these things when one is under warranty INMO. Me,.... I like the idea of a new engine shortly before Im out of warranty.

Ill play... just ordered my sample kit, ill post back in the following weeks with what I find.

FYI I run Royal Purple 5W-30 w/ Idemitsu premix @ ~8 o.z. a tank on roughly 3K miles on my reman

I will post my Dyson of the factory fill in a week or 2 when I get the results. Tomorrow in goes RLI 30w HD.

It only pays to worry about these things when one is under warranty INMO. Me,.... I like the idea of a new engine shortly before Im out of warranty.

No, it only pays to worry about it after warranty!

They'll let you run crap oil under warranty (5w20 dino) for 8 years/ 100k miles.

I had two RX3 rotaries failed under heat load issues not oiling issues.

the first was water seal leaks, and the second was that I was running at 7krpm on a hot day, and a apex seal cratered.

If I had rodded the rad when the new rebuild was put in, and had the presence of mind to premix, the second engine would have lasted.

those who may understand more in depth of oil characteristics, may need to look into what i'm about to say, and give some feedback. and since this IS just like the biggest oil thread, with whom people also like to test oils so i've decided to post them here.

so WHO, would consider if not have already been doing so, to run valvoline VR1 if they are running a midpipe.

lets cover some basics first. VR1 race oil, specifically states contains ZDDP, an anti-wear zinc additive that works very well for high stress and wear parts.

sounds great, right?

here's the downfall: zinc, when introduced to the catalytic converter, will slowly coat it and render it useless. which is bad news for our unique combustion process.

these type of oil are great for older style vehicles that don't run a fancy valvetrain system, OR a cat. so if u aren't running one (cat) then i don't see why this is a bad oil to try.

one warning though: high zinc content isn't something the air pollution police likes very much, so let me just keep this simple that this oil, is heavily tinted (flourescent dye, very close in color to a block tracer)

my problem is this: i'd like to know how "immediate" the process of the converter being coated by zinc is, this way i'd would know if running a quart or two while on my high flow cat for a track day would have any canceling effect. like a compromise of sorts... easier on motor wear, but more on the cat.

hmmm... i'd imagine the more classic car owners and the more matured to have a good insight on this. but those who studies oil properties very well, your info is also appreciated.

thanx,
TM

those who may understand more in depth of oil characteristics, may need to look into what i'm about to say, and give some feedback. and since this IS just like the biggest oil thread, with whom people also like to test oils so i've decided to post them here.

so WHO, would consider if not have already been doing so, to run valvoline VR1 if they are running a midpipe.

lets cover some basics first. VR1 race oil, specifically states contains ZDDP, an anti-wear zinc additive that works very well for high stress and wear parts.

sounds great, right?

here's the downfall: zinc, when introduced to the catalytic converter, will slowly coat it and render it useless. which is bad news for our unique combustion process.

these type of oil are great for older style vehicles that don't run a fancy valvetrain system, OR a cat. so if u aren't running one (cat) then i don't see why this is a bad oil to try.

one warning though: high zinc content isn't something the air pollution police likes very much, so let me just keep this simple that this oil, is heavily tinted (flourescent dye, very close in color to a block tracer)

Your rotary doesn't have any valve train system, which is what zddp additives were designed for.

The rotary hasn't been officially tested to any specs, and we are only told to put in normal 5w20 dino.

Those light oil's have been tested by owners, and found to wear bearings which have hydrostatic pressure (oil pump), and zddp won't fix that in a low weight situation.

Soulution?

I don't think any oil out there will make much difference in longevity since your seals will crater first, but I'd run at least something Xw40, and I use M1 0w40.

Deposit control in the combustion chamber, and cat can be accomplished by making sure you never have misfire.

my problem is this: i'd like to know how "immediate" the process of the converter being coated by zinc is, this way i'd would know if running a quart or two while on my high flow cat for a track day would have any canceling effect. like a compromise of sorts... easier on motor wear, but more on the cat.

hmmm... i'd imagine the more classic car owners and the more matured to have a good insight on this. but those who studies oil properties very well, your info is also appreciated.

thanx,
TM

ZDDP is to protect against metal to metal contact when oil film becomes void. Its been predominantly used due to its relatively low cost. The impact it has on CAT's is arguable by most, but in a known oil burner I gather its a safer bet that there will be damage done. How fast is anyone’s guess, but assuming there is no pre-existing contamination Id imagine you’d be fine for quite some time. The rotor gears would benefit a lot from ZDDP just as a transmission does from ZDDP and other extreme pressure/antiwear adds. I guess Id sum it all up to damned if you damned if you don’t.

BTW its the phos that is the major culprit to CAT damage, but since they are found together its safe to say zinc is part of the problem.

The rotor gears would benefit a lot from ZDDP....

Never heard of a rotor gear failure, but cats fail daily.

Used to work for an oil refinery that used very expensive platinum/rhodium catalysts to hydro-crack oils, and wanted to maximize their life - the pumps, gearboxes and compressors used all kinds of expensive and exotic lubes, and oil changes were frequent (they ran 24/7 for two or three years straight.)

The plant had a huge tank to hold all this used oil, and it would have been much easier to just thow it all back in with the 'crude' but they had done the numbers - that tiny percentage of metallic additives would cost them big-time in catalyst life.

No, they paid a company to truck it away to a re-refiner who could clean it up and sell it as lubes (to someone else!)

Well......I have been having cold idle issues and misfires and a coil test showed my BHR coils misfiring but thsi pretty much confirms it was not the coils. I will pressure test tonight to confirm. 30,000 mile Mazda reman, meticulously maintained, SOHN, premix, BHR ignition, no cat, etc.

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6013/5931654852_21d77e2148_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5931654852/)

Ouch. Sorry to see that. Mazda remans are know for coolant seal problems, no?

That'll teach you to meticulously maintain it rather than flogging the snot out of it! (Sorry, gallows humor.)

Ouch. Sorry to see that. Mazda remans are know for coolant seal problems, no?

That'll teach you to meticulously maintain it rather than flogging the snot out of it! (Sorry, gallows humor.)

Yeah, I have read a few issues on it, probably from reusing parts that should have been replaced.


I could have saved some cash by not maintaining it so well :lol: Oh well, such is the life of a rotary enthusiast I guess.

Oh well, such is the life of a rotary enthusiast I guess.

Not really. I just change the (ordinary dino juice) oil every 3-or-so thousand miles, plugs and air filter every so often, and flog the living shit out of mine. I've had several different rotaries over 100k miles including my Spec RX-7 race car and haven't killed an engine yet. Had an FB over 225k. The '8 only has about 45k, but I beat it mercilessly so I expect it will go over 100k miles. :yesnod: I do pay very, very close attention to water temp.

A Redline A Day Keeps The Mechanic Away. ;)

Transmission? Not so much... :icon_no2: ...Until I put in the 2009. :D:

not that i'm expecting anything bad (I'll be really annoyed if I get a similar lovegram) but I got my last batch of Mobil 1 10w30 shipped off to Amsoil for analysis tonight.

I'll post my results once I get them back, hopefully by the end of the week.

9krpmrx8,
Yeah,As Blackstone says : you should have that .......looked at since you caught in the early stages.

Maybe chemo?


When my 73 RX3 did this on the original engine at 74k miles, I put in a can of block seal a few times to try to glue it, but Mazda gave me a new engine that was pretty good.

I'm surprised Blackstone didn't tell you hurry up and put the head gasket in!

Not really. I just change the (ordinary dino juice) oil every 3-or-so thousand miles, plugs and air filter every so often, and flog the living shit out of mine. I've had several different rotaries over 100k miles including my Spec RX-7 race car and haven't killed an engine yet. Had an FB over 225k. The '8 only has about 45k, but I beat it mercilessly so I expect it will go over 100k miles. :yesnod: I do pay very, very close attention to water temp.

A Redline A Day Keeps The Mechanic Away. ;)

Transmission? Not so much... :icon_no2: ...Until I put in the 2009. :D:

Yeah I dunno I guess everyone has different experiences, my first died at 22k on 5W30 dino, second lasted 74k on 10W30 GTX, and now this at 30k (not oil related) and I am down right OCD about usually sub 3,000 mile oil changes, changing plugs once a year, etc., etc. etc. and if you read my threads you will see temps are a constant worry of mine and everyone said I was a worry wart and look what happened :lol:

But my tranny has 126,000 hard miles on it with just regular Mazda fluid changes. Redline a day is a given and I always warmed the car up before driving anywhere and watched oil temps like a hawk.

9krpmrx8,
Yeah,As Blackstone says : you should have that .......looked at since you caught in the early stages.

Maybe chemo?


When my 73 RX3 did this on the original engine at 74k miles, I put in a can of block seal a few times to try to glue it, but Mazda gave me a new engine that was pretty good.

I'm surprised Blackstone didn't tell you hurry up and put the head gasket in!


Yeah my dad asked if there was a way to change the gaskets :lol: I pressurized the coolant system and removed the L2 plug and the coolant just dribbled out of the spark plug hole so it's done but catching it early may have saved some reusable hard parts.

Right column is dealer fill (Valvoline 5w30 Im told) left column in Rotella T Triple Protection 10w30 (the mineral not the T5 synthetic blend) Dealer fill went in at 638 miles April 19th and Rotella T 10w30 went in May 7th and 2500 miles. This sample was pulled from the drain hole July 10th. This is a 2010 RX8 GT manual transmission purchased new by me. Mileage on the car is 5000, all compenents.

Iron 16 11
Copp 5 1
Lead 2 2
Chrom 3 4
Alum 3 1
Calcu 1682 2044
Magn 14 10
Zinc 906 1285
Phos 777 986
Bariu 8 0
Moly 381 63
Silico 40 12
Sodi 73 63
Boron 76 0
Visc 40C 38.7 62.6
Vis 100C 7.7 10.3
TAN 1.31 1.41
Flash 340 280 (Closed cup method so this would be quite a bit higher done open cup such as BStone's method)
OXID 14 21
NIT 6 6
KF 1041 786 (Used to determine the water concentration of the base stocks, thus indicating synthetic or mineral. Both are in the range of the minreal oils.)
TBN 5.0 6.9
Fuel 1.12% 1.64% (actual fuel test rather than BStone's method of calculating based upon the flash point. BStone's method would have shown less than 1% likely .5%)
Soot 0 0 (no carbon in oil or evidence of deposit potential. The dispersents of the both oils as well as my fuel additive are allowing the filter to work.)
Glycol 0 0
Visc Ind 165 153
Sulfate By Product 19 23

MPG was down 20% with the Rotella from 22-23 to 20.X.

Do you consider that flash point or % fuel to be bad for 2500 miles?

Do you consider that flash point or % fuel to be bad for 2500 miles?

Normally its leaning to the bad side, but looking at the Ox and Nit among other things the professional guidence is that the oil could go as far as 4K miles under current operating conditions. Im told that according to the data base my engine is wearing less and appears to be better sealed than most. Im also being recommended RLI for optimal lubrication benefits.

MPG was down 20% with the Rotella from 22-23 to 20.X.

#1 If you drove the car properly during that period, yes, you would burn 20% less before you can put the hammer down after breakin as you enjoy your new toy.

#2 Very few people can measure gas mileage close enough to see the 2-3 % difference oil companies claim for thinner oil.

Normally its leaning to the bad side, but looking at the Ox and Nit among other things the professional guidence is that the oil could go as far as 4K miles under current operating conditions. Im told that according to the data base my engine is wearing less and appears to be better sealed than most. Im also being recommended RLI for optimal lubrication benefits.

Nobody knows which engine has better seals until they fail later.

If two engines had a compression test, you might be able to rate.

Did you do that compression test, yet?

Also, those oil tests are almost meaningless to see which oil wears better, much less which engine wears better.

At this new stage on your engine that uoa was to check for fuel and antifreeze.

The sample might have more to compare at 15-20k miles when most engines stabilize, and quit showing high silicon.

Nobody knows which engine has better seals until they fail later.

If two engines had a compression test, you might be able to rate.

Did you do that compression test, yet?

Also, those oil tests are almost meaningless to see which oil wears better, much less which engine wears better.

At this new stage on your engine that uoa was to check for fuel and antifreeze.

The sample might have more to compare at 15-20k miles when most engines stabilize, and quit showing high silicon.

Incorrect. The sealing can be reasonably guestimated with fuel dilution, soot, and sulphated by product, same as ring seal in an Otto application. Additionally, this UOA being at this mileage shows how it is wearing in and where it is in that process. Will also help provide guidence as to any gross manufacturing defects.

#1 If you drove the car properly during that period, yes, you would burn 20% less before you can put the hammer down after breakin as you enjoy your new toy.

#2 Very few people can measure gas mileage close enough to see the 2-3 % difference oil companies claim for thinner oil.

1# Perhaps, but after 1K miles the break in process becomes aggressive thus leading to additional fuel consumption. By 1500 miles the break in process is at its most aggressive including redlines and other performance driving techniques.

#2 Perhaps again, but 20% would none the less be observable as it was. 2%-3% is also noticable with sufficient trending which I have.

Incorrect. The sealing can be reasonably guestimated with fuel dilution, soot, and sulphated by product, same as ring seal in an Otto application. Additionally, this UOA being at this mileage shows how it is wearing in and where it is in that process. Will also help provide guidence as to any gross manufacturing defects.

You seem to know a lot about oil tests, but you claim you have an above average engine which can be guestimated with fuel dilution, AND YOU HAVE LOTS OF FUEL DILUTION!

So I didn't catch your logic.

Iluvrevs,

Was that an actual test? If so, by whom? Can you post the results up? Your posts are a little hard to follow honestly.

Thanks :)

9krpmrx8

If you haven't pulled your engine yet I suggest you run a bottle of Bar's leaks in your coolant. I had a coolant leak on my daily beater and this stuff worked great. It is worth a shot.

http://www.barsproducts.com/1111.htm

9krpmrx8

If you haven't pulled your engine yet I suggest you run a bottle of Bar's leaks in your coolant. I had a coolant leak on my daily beater and this stuff worked great. It is worth a shot.

http://www.barsproducts.com/1111.htm


Thanks for the recommendation but that stuff is crap and does more damage than good. If I had a beater maybe, but I am getting new built motor, and with forced induction I am not taking any risks on a patched together engine.

Thanks for the recommendation but that stuff is crap and does more damage than good. If I had a beater maybe, but I am getting new built motor, and with forced induction I am not taking any risks on a patched together engine.
Where are you getting the new motor from? Just interested in case I ever need one....

Where are you getting the new motor from? Just interested in case I ever need one....


www.pineappleracing.com. Rob seemed to be the most knowledgeable and took the time to out what and why he does certain things during a rebuild. and of course I am not getting a standard rebuild.

After about 3000km i´ve got folowing results(on German language):
1.pdf is new oil
2.pdf used oil after 3000 km

It is Motul 300V Power 5W-30,synthetic,esterbased...
The car has now about 37000km on tacho.
any suggestions?
Thx

% fuel is the biggest problem I see with keeping oil in good condition in the RX-8. I would buy a cheaper oil and change it often. and continue to periodically measure the wear.

Looks good man.

Looks like I've got piston ring plating problems... hmm

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=175095&stc=1&d=1312231767

Chrome from the housings?

someone earlier suggested the eshaft

Looks like I've got piston ring plating problems... hmm

So I'm thinking about why your BEARINGS are wearing, then, I scroll down some more, and see the excess fuel in the oil.

Another guy had a test a page or two back with even more: 4 %.

The chrome and lead has to be from the bearings, but the gears might give up some chrome.

Fix those fuel injectors, and be sure to premix.

In fact a couple tanks of Techron ( in the bottle and in the fuel at Texaco and Chevron) might clean up the injectors before you take out.

Also, Mobil 1 0w40 is the same weight as 10w30 at low temps, but is 40 weight at operating temps, and would be somewhat helpful with this dilution going on.

someone earlier suggested the eshaft

Your lead is high which means some chrome plating has worn off a bearing area and exposed the softer lead under it.

Also, the eshaft probably gave up some chrome, but it doesn't have lead.

After about 3000km i´ve got folowing results(on German language):
1.pdf is new oil
2.pdf used oil after 3000 km

It is Motul 300V Power 5W-30,synthetic,esterbased...
The car has now about 37000km on tacho.
any suggestions?
Thx

Interesting to see that much of the moly(Mo) was taken up by the engine, which should help with reducing the friction and wear.

Motul 300v and redline are probably best oils you can buy. Both ester based and loaded with moly.

Your lead is high which means some chrome plating has worn off a bearing area and exposed the softer lead under it.

Also, the eshaft probably gave up some chrome, but it doesn't have lead.

there is no chrome in the bearings..housings are chrome plated..looks like his apex seals are not getting enough lubrication..

time to run some seafoam trough the OMP injectors and start premixing

Looks like I've got piston ring plating problems... hmm




Piston rings are not recommended as a premix...:nono:

Interesting observations. My injectors were replaced with new OEM ones about 6,000 miles back due to clogging that was making me run super lean up top (FI). Since putting the new ones in my AFRs have been much better, I would say a bit richer than they should be actually under load.

AFRs under load tend to run in the low 11s high 10s.

I am very interested in the OMP / seal observation. I have noticed some sluggishness with warm starts and (even with a tweaked OMP flow map) I have noticed that my oil consumption rate is down. Is the seafoam procedure for the OMP lines the same one I read about all the time using the (I'm assuming) intake manifold nipples?

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

Shell

use the OMP hose that connects to the throttle body boot. let it suck in about 1/3 of the seafom can with engine running. then turn off the engine while letting the omp hose suck in another 1/3 of the seafoam can via residual vacuum allowing seafoam to soak nozzles for next hour. reconnect the omp hose and start the car. run it hard to get max flow trough the OMP nozzles.

It was proven that you can suck seafoam through the OMP hose but there is no proof it does anything to unstick clogged oil injectors. Most builders don't recommend cleaning them, they just get replaced if they fail the vacuum test. And if you remove all the stuff to test them you might as well replace them while you are in there. But it's can't hurt.

But if your OMP lines are clogged this procedure won't do anything to help that. If you value you motor and your oil consumption is down, I suggest just replacing the oil injectors and lines if they have a decent amount of mileage on them, it doesn't cost much.

there is no chrome in the bearings..housings are chrome plated..looks like his apex seals are not getting enough lubrication..


Ok, I'm not sure what the top layer of the bearings are, but I've seen pics here of spots being worn through.

IMO that the chrome is more likely from the gears which need antiwear additives in most situations.

Chrome from the housings?

I'm with you.

How does housing wear get back in the oil with oil seal several inches away?

Interesting to see that much of the moly(Mo) was taken up by the engine, which should help with reducing the friction and wear.

Motul 300v and redline are probably best oils you can buy. Both ester based and loaded with moly.

Good catch!

I only saw the 460ppm moly on the used oil, and thought: wow, looks like break-in oil, but it has 730ppm in virgin oil.

Won't the engine get conditioned, and not be able to obsorb any more moly after a few more changes?

The only thing i am worried about is the Al and Fe...ist this normal wear or not,and from where it comes?

Fe probably comes from side seals rubbing on the side housingshttp://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/images/RE101/anatomy/shousingfeatures1.gif

use the OMP hose that connects to the throttle body boot. let it suck in about 1/3 of the seafom can with engine running. then turn off the engine while letting the omp hose suck in another 1/3 of the seafoam can via residual vacuum allowing seafoam to soak nozzles for next hour. reconnect the omp hose and start the car. run it hard to get max flow trough the OMP nozzles.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=217177

Thanks for the pointer. I'll likely run my decarb (both omp and housing) following this procedure over the weekend.

My first UOA (Valvoline 5w30 conventional) with apparently high amounts of chrome. Would it be worthwhile to get another UOA on the next oil change, or is it better to wait a few?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=176000&stc=1&d=1314049822

I would get a couple of tests done so you can get a better idea of what is going on.

Not a bad guess, but wrong, the chrome is on the housing, no chrome on or in the seals.

Either way, you are obviously not premixing, and wearing the housing liner out.

Blackstone repeatedly makes that mistake. Guess nobody has called them on it yet.

Chrome at 80,000+ miles may be coming from the eccentric shaft main bearings. At least that's what we've seen in other high-mileage engines. Do you track it or run it hard (like you should :))?

Not a bad guess, but wrong, the chrome is on the housing, no chrome on or in the seals.

Either way, you are obviously not premixing, and wearing the housing liner out.

Are you addressing my posted analysis? If you are, I will mention that I have started premixing almost two oil changes ago with Idemitsu premix @ ~0.5 oz. / gal. .


Blackstone repeatedly makes that mistake. Guess nobody has called them on it yet.

Chrome at 80,000+ miles may be coming from the eccentric shaft main bearings. At least that's what we've seen in other high-mileage engines. Do you track it or run it hard (like you should :))?

I've been to a couple HPDE events a year or two ago, and I autocross semi-regularly (last one about a month ago).

you went trough 4.5 quarts of make up oil in 2900 miles?

you went trough 4.5 quarts of make up oil in 2900 miles?

That was what I put back in after trying to get as much oil out as possible by alternatively jacking up both sides while the oil was draining.

oh ok, so what was your omp consumption then?

oh ok, so what was your omp consumption then?

I think I typically go through about 1 qt. between changes.

That was what I put back in after trying to get as much oil out as possible by alternatively jacking up both sides while the oil was draining.

Er... you might want to drop Blackstone a note and let them know your make up oil was one qt and not 4.5. Ask them if that makes any difference on your analysis. (If it doesn't, why the hell do they ask?)

Er... you might want to drop Blackstone a note and let them know your make up oil was one qt and not 4.5. Ask them if that makes any difference on your analysis. (If it doesn't, why the hell do they ask?)

oooooooohhhh ...

My first UOA (Valvoline 5w30 conventional) with apparently high amounts of chrome. Would it be worthwhile to get another UOA on the next oil change, or is it better to wait a few?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=176000&stc=1&d=1314049822


This is a very good report, especially for 84k miles.

The insolubles of .2 (oxidized solids), and low 8ppm silicon ( 12ppm normal high limit), show that you could even run the oil longer and your filters are working good.

This Valvoline is working and you don't need another uoa for about 10-20k miles, but the high chromium might come down later if you thicken up to some xw40 oil.

Updating the make up oil added had no change in the results ("doesn't really change things too much"). I guess it's just there to simply track oil consumption. :dunno:

Here are my results, one winter/spring run, one spring/summer run .... (yea ... i dont put too many miles on my baby hehe)

Not sure I am liking the viscosity numbers

They are not dangerously low but they are low in comparison to other full synthetics. I have never bought into the hype that is RP. Heck those numbers are in line with a Castrol GTX 10W30. I would try something else and do a double oil change just to see what happens. Rotella T6 5W-40 is $25 a jug and tests well, I would give that a try.

I was just gunna go to 0w40 redline at my next change, should be good enough no? or does this just prove that there is no point wasting an ass load of money on "premium" synthetics lol

I was just gunna go to 0w40 redline at my next change, should be good enough no? or does this just prove that there is no point wasting an ass load of money on "premium" synthetics lol


Redline is good stuff, at least it meets recomended specs and is certified. Try it, test it, and see how it does, if you don't like it you can always switch. That is what I did until I settled on Mobil1 0W-40. The Rotella T6 5W-40 actually tested very well in my car but for some reason I just feel better using the Mobil1 even though it costs much more.

Redline is good stuff, at least it meets recomended specs and is certified. Try it, test it, and see how it does, if you don't like it you can always switch. That is what I did until I settled on Mobil1 0W-40. The Rotella T6 5W-40 actually tested very well in my car but for some reason I just feel better using the Mobil1 even though it costs much more.

Last I heard Redline didnt get licensed for API SM nor have they gone SN. I think they declined as they would have had to reduce their ZDDP content. Been awhile since I read about it though. They easily pass specs with the exception of the ZDDP and the HTHS of the 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 street oils.

FWIW I have the 10w60 in at the moment.

Here are my results, one winter/spring run, one spring/summer run .... (yea ... i dont put too many miles on my baby hehe)

Not sure I am liking the viscosity numbers

The 8 comes with like a 5w20 oil with lots of molybenum as do most cars now, and the 8 takes several changes to get up the viscosity since as most of us know here that you might only get half your oil out on a change.

Your second change has almost 11 cst @ 100 deg c , and the moly, and silicone from the new oil and build is lowering.

This uoa looks good, and your thickness is close enough or on the money depending on how hard you drive.

The 8 comes with like a 5w20 oil with lots of molybenum as do most cars now, and the 8 takes several changes to get up the viscosity since as most of us know here that you might only get half your oil out on a change.

Your second change has almost 11 cst @ 100 deg c , and the moly, and silicone from the new oil and build is lowering.

This uoa looks good, and your thickness is close enough or on the money depending on how hard you drive.

Thanks for the response. And FYI, not sure if it makes any difference, but I use a pump to extract my oil as opposed to draining it from the plug. I get 5qt's out that way every time.

not bad report but I would go with redline oil..it is in the same price range as royal purple but it has much more stable viscosity since it is ester based oil. their 5w30 provides protection of 5w-40 wight oil due to its high HTHS numbers.

Last I heard Redline didnt get licensed for API SM nor have they gone SN. I think they declined as they would have had to reduce their ZDDP content. Been awhile since I read about it though. They easily pass specs with the exception of the ZDDP and the HTHS of the 5w20, 5w30, and 10w30 street oils.

FWIW I have the 10w60 in at the moment.

You are right, I think I am thinking of Amsoil.

Thanks for the response. And FYI, not sure if it makes any difference, but I use a pump to extract my oil as opposed to draining it from the plug. I get 5qt's out that way every time.

It shouldn't make a difference, I use a pump as well.

Good thing is at least it isn't showing the use of FP+ contaminating the engine ... now if only we could prove that it's use actually beneficial lol.

Good thing is at least it isn't showing the use of FP+ contaminating the engine ... now if only we could prove that it's use actually beneficial lol.\

Ive got it on fairly expert opinion that it does.

aw you know that i just can't take an opinion over cracking open an engine that has been using FP+ :D

So after I got my results I actually sent them over to RP because I wanted to gauge their reaction, here is their reply:


Good Afternoon,

At first I was a little perplexed by the lower than spec viscosity at 100°C, and variation in additive elementals reported vs. what the oil should have. The most recent report mentions that residual oil from the previous oil change (5W-30) could easily explain that, and I agree. Residual oil could also account for the unexpected additive elementals. When you switched to RP SAE 5W-30, was this from the factory/dealer installed oil, or some other 5W-20? The change in viscosity (and therefore formulation) at each change is likely contributing to the anomalous reported values. If you have decided on a particular oil brand and viscosity, try sticking with it for a couple of oil changes and samples and the values (visc. and additives) will likely stabilize. To summarize, I do not see any compelling reason that the oil could not have continued service, but I would like to see the values stabilize in the next sample. Again, it is important to use the same oil, otherwise a large amount of variability will be introduced.

I would like to see a sample on the next change. Let me know a couple of days before you change the oil and I will send a kit out to you. We won’t charge anything, as I am interested in if my theory is correct. If you are curious, you can send another sample to Blackstone at the same time and see how well we correlate.


Thanks for choosing Royal Purple and have a great day!


Best Regards,

Christopher Barker
Technical Services

Seems like a good response, at least they are interested in helping. I would take them up on the offer so we can see what their test results show.

Seems like a good response, at least they are interested in helping. I would take them up on the offer so we can see what their test results show.

Most def, it was a fast response too, I sent them an email late last night. They surely get a point in my book for good CS.

And yea I surely will, I will get one from BSL as well to compare just as he mentioned. I responded and let him know that I am running their 5w3 for winter, I was gunna run a 0w4 after i finished this interval but based on his reply I may run another interval or two on the 5w3 just to make sure my results aren't skewed due to residuals.

aw you know that i just can't take an opinion over cracking open an engine that has been using FP+ :D

At that point wouldn’t it make it kind of irrelevant what you use?

Has anyone tried, Mobil 1 High Milage?

I have not seen any info on that particular oil being used in a rotary.

I have not seen any info on that particular oil being used in a rotary.

I see.. it's this one here:
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English-LCW/carengineoils_products_mobil-super-high-mileage-5w30.aspx

Just a quick one... will using synthetic be ok? or in your opinion you'll still opt to use closest to conventional oil as much as possible? and what's the double ester from motul 300v means?

Here's a quick and dirty analysis of the UOAs from this thread FWIW. I didn’t discriminate between synthetic/mineral, premix/no premix, or S1/S2. I can if there is interest update as we get more data and will fish the net for other reports as well. Any keying errors will only result in immaterial variances. Id ignore the viscosities of the 5w20 and 5w30 as there are 0 values that are unduly influencing those averages. I didnt see where Id be able to upload the actual Excel file, sorry.

Cool, I just sent you my last one.

Fixed :)

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=179974&d=1325109563