i have heard a lot about how the 09 engine is holding up. ANyone have enything?
OD

Wat

plz 2 use englis kthxbai

:p:

What have you heard about the 09 olddragger?

I've had some issues with coolant, but nothing with oil... so far anyways

7k miles and I've gone through about 3 quarts of between-oil-change top offs... Coolant is fine.

Not engine related but my rear drivers side shock (before springs) blew after only about 1200 miles. Mazda won't replace it because it's not blown enough :squint:

7k miles and I've gone through about 3 quarts of between-oil-change top offs... Coolant is fine.

Not engine related but my rear drivers side shock (before springs) blew after only about 1200 miles. Mazda won't replace it because it's not blown enough :squint:


Blow it some more.. :p:

they changed a lot in the engine for 09. But i didnt see much that was changed in reference to cooling issues. Anyone monitoring temps.
Obviously they are using more oil--which is a good thing.
Mazda is not stupid (that could be debated some!) but they went to a lot of trouble getting the lubrication right for the 09's. Higher oil pressures--better oil pump--and a much better mop.
As much attention as properly cooling (temps) this engine has drawn --you would think they would have made some changes to the cooling system?
SO I am interested in the coolant and oil temps, oil pressure readings and oil usage.
I want to see the differences between the 09's and the pre 09's and if there are any observable affects. This is a start.
OD

I burn a quart every 1500 miles or so. I haven't checked my coolant temps, though.

I should be doing gauges in the spring I wish I could give you some readings earlier... if you want to give me a research grant I can get some numbers sooner :naughty:

As much attention as properly cooling (temps) this engine has drawn --you would think they would have made some changes to the cooling system?
OD

There wasn't any reason for Mazda to address cooling issues with the renesis. As it stands there are little to no issues with an average user of the RX8 regarding the cooling of the motor.

Cooling issues have only spawned from those of us who have heavily modified the car and changed the tuning to a more aggressive fuel map.

Even still, you have to run the piss out of the car on the track or in some of the locations here out west before you begin to seriously tax the cooling system.

Mazda isn't going to address anything that is caused from engine modifications. The oiling issue was something that effected everyone from bone stock to full race. The engine recall was directly linked to a lack of oil lubrication so it only makes sense for those redesigns to occur.

There are plenty of well designed cooling parts available for this motor so if cooling is your concern then they are at your disposal.

they changed a lot in the engine for 09. But i didnt see much that was changed in reference to cooling issues. Anyone monitoring temps.
Obviously they are using more oil--which is a good thing.
Mazda is not stupid (that could be debated some!) but they went to a lot of trouble getting the lubrication right for the 09's. Higher oil pressures--better oil pump--and a much better mop.
As much attention as properly cooling (temps) this engine has drawn --you would think they would have made some changes to the cooling system?
SO I am interested in the coolant and oil temps, oil pressure readings and oil usage.
I want to see the differences between the 09's and the pre 09's and if there are any observable affects. This is a start.
OD


I haven't checked temps but on hot days I'll get the coolant light turning on every so often

i have about 16000 miles now, and have run in 105 to 100 degree days for a few weeks with no problems. i red line going onto the interstate but no track days

flash--are you saying that oem rx8' are not seeing 230F coolant temps on the street?
Or do you mean that 230F coolant is not a problem?
everyone else for the feedback--sure are using more oil:)
OD

they changed a lot in the engine for 09. But i didnt see much that was changed in reference to cooling issues. Anyone monitoring temps.OD

OD and Flash, I don't know where you got the idea Mazda changed little in the cooling system on Series II (09~) RX-8's as there were a few.

1. Slight increase (about 1/2 litre) in radiator Coolant Capacity and a modified radiator core. "The down-flow direction of water inside the radiator causes air to bleed from the cooling system easier" Unquote
2. Change to Water pump Impeller to a "plastic one" for "reduced water pump drag"
3. An extra Cooling Fan Speed from 2 to 3 speeds.."Three-stage control has been adopted to the cooling fan with high, middle, and low speed rotation allowing noise reduction and power savings."
4. Upgraded Cooling Fan Motors now both the same (2) and slightly larger, S1's had a N01 and N02 Fan motor of Different Part Numbers. S2 uses same fan BLADES but a different Fan Cowling (Holder Shroud) to take changed Fan Motors.

As far as Temperature monitoring, I recently tested my Cooling Temps Via my OBD-II Port with my OBD+Key scanner, it showed a constant 82-84c (179-183F) temperature with our Winter outside Temp of 15c (60F), this is also thermostat Open temps (82-84c), when temps reached 96c (204F) (Idle for 2 minutes or more) Low speed Cooling Fan cuts in.
I also tested (same day) my sisters 2006 Kia Cerato (2 litre) and her Temps were the same (82-84c).

I will let you know what the actual temps are when we go into Summer in a few months or so.

Engine Oil Use....
As we know Mazda adopted their all new EMOP set up with an additional injector Nozzle per housing. IMO Mazda have targeted oil more efficiently and I think I am using less than S1 owners (as 04-08's have had volumes cranked up to Max with all the PCM Flashes)..
I use about 200 Mil (1/5th litre) per 1000 KMS or 600 miles.

BTW, OD the Internals of the RENESIS II (09's) have not changed at all, Rotors, Apex, Side and corner seals, eccentric shaft, etc are identical.

What has changed are the Oil Pump (higher pressure) and the external EMOP system which required new rotor housings for the extra middle nozzle hole, and new Iron housings because of the new oil pick up and return EMOP system, new front Alloy housing for new larger Oil filter and it's re-location.

Additional Knock sensor on rear rotor housing also ( now 2), both the same part numbers.

There wasn't any reason for Mazda to address cooling issues with the renesis. As it stands there are little to no issues with an average user of the RX8 regarding the cooling of the motor.

Cooling issues have only spawned from those of us who have heavily modified the car and changed the tuning to a more aggressive fuel map.

Even still, you have to run the piss out of the car on the track or in some of the locations here out west before you begin to seriously tax the cooling system.

Mazda isn't going to address anything that is caused from engine modifications. The oiling issue was something that effected everyone from bone stock to full race. The engine recall was directly linked to a lack of oil lubrication so it only makes sense for those redesigns to occur.

There are plenty of well designed cooling parts available for this motor so if cooling is your concern then they are at your disposal.

There is most definitely heat issues.

I haven't checked temps but on hot days I'll get the coolant light turning on every so often

If you are getting a coolant light it's because either your coolant level is low or the sensor in your overflow bottle is faulty.

OD and Flash, I don't know where you got the idea Mazda changed little in the cooling system on Series II (09~) RX-8's as there were a few.

I stand corrected on that information. Thanks ash!

flash--are you saying that oem rx8' are not seeing 230F coolant temps on the street?
Or do you mean that 230F coolant is not a problem?
everyone else for the feedback--sure are using more oil:)
OD

Honestly the only person whom I see having cooling issues here in Phoenix has been Easy_E1. For whatever reason his RX8 seems to run very warm with the stock radiator. Even a rather light to moderate speed drive through the twisty mountains yielded temps as high as 232. However, it was over 108 degrees yesterday.

There is most definitely heat issues.

There are heat issues in the situations that would cause them anyway. We've had serious heat this weekend with Friday seeing as high as 114 in some parts of the city with no cloud cover at all. A mixture of highway and city driving I was seeing around 220 degrees. Now, I can't speak for stock RX8's in that situation because I have an upgraded cooling system.

I'm sure in seriously hot climates like Arizona that cars are going to run much hotter because the overall manufacturer design isn't done around extreme environments.

Using Erick as an example, when he had heating issues quite a while back when he was seeing temps as high as 240 degrees it was discovered that the coolant mixture was too heavy on the anti-freeze side.

You have to look at many cars over the span of a very wide area before claiming the overall vehicle has a problem. The trap people fall into is they have issues with their own vehicle either because of their modifications, driving style, or because they simply made a mistake with an installation and then blame the OEM design for the problem.

Flash--i will have to respectfully disagree that there are no cooling problems with the oem cars.
I have seen and heard from numerous owners that see temps of 230F at times. Hot weather , gridlock/slow moving stop and go traffic is where most have problems. Or constant high rpm use.
Seems like our cooling systems also do not have much if any fail safe capacity. For example if one fan goes out and cooling system is being taxed--it will even get hotter than 230F. Or if the foam around the rad comes out for whatever reason---it is easy seen in much reduced capacity.
WHo was it---Roar Racing? that revealed they started seeing housing warp at sustained 225F temps? No prepared RX8 (track ) are running temps over 200F--must be a reason they are doing this and Mazda made the changes they did?

Ash --thanks a lot for the info--guess i missed the boat on that one. The things mentioned makes a lot of sense and I bet they have been a help. Really good info as usual--you da man!
OD

I have seen and heard from numerous owners that see temps of 230F at times.

What kind of modifications do they have to their RX8? If it's a hot climate are they switching to a mostly distilled water mixture or using the factory mixture for coolant?

It seems to me that the biggest change Mazda could make is to switch the fans on earlier which appears to give some of the biggest benefit to the cooling system. If the fans are not turning on full until 215 degrees then you've already soaked the cooling system and the fans are not going to slow that down much.

I've found that temperatures will increase slowly but once they reach 220 degrees in my own RX8 then the time from 220 to 230 is vastly less than 210 to 220.

Please let me clarify my position so it's not misunderstood. If you are a normal person using your car in a typical transportation method or even living in an average climte (low to mid 90's down to below freezing) then the cooling system is going to be fine.

Driver style also plays a big part with how well your car cools itself. I have RX8 owners who have problems with their cooling system because they tend to cruise at 5500 rpms or higher all the time.

I'm just not sure what "changes" you're looking for OD. What exactly did you expect Mazda to do with the 09 motors?

Here guys...thought I would put this in to show the FAN and 3 Speeds ON/OFF Temps for the 09's...still pretty high before Max Fans Speed is on "Flash", 226F or above!, which is over Boiling Point!

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=144785&stc=1&d=1251788442

Flash and OD, do the 04-08's have Cooling Fans ON or "After Cooling" when engine bay temps rise after you turn car off with ignition off and you exit car locked?

As basically when Temps get to 230F+ under the Hood High Speed Fans cut in, I would like to know at what Temp do they turn off?....would it be 97F?

I noticed this on my car last Summer, but did not have my Scanner then.. :)

BTW: Notice "ECT", Meaning "Engine Coolant Temperature" and or Engine Compartment Temp conditions.

Also notice under the "Fail Safe" mode, IF the ECT Sensor Fails, ALL Fans are on HIGH...

Now... I wonder..... if WE could run a separate switch on the dash which WE could then Isolate the 'ECT Sensor' as to unplug it via the dash mounted ON/OFF switch forcing our FANS ON high speed for those extreme HOT days or Track USE...

MMMmmm, this could be a good little Idea or Gadget....what do you think men??

Now where is this ECT Sensor and how many wires does it have???, it is probably incorporated into the PCM somewhere, and untouchable??..

I think I have a good Idea??...what do you think?

Don't Forget "ECT" is also Engine Coolant Temperature!

Thinking more!!!...this would be a great feature to have a dash switch...particularly if it is a hot day and you get stuck in bumper to bumper grid lock, you could flick the switch in advance, only thing is would you then get a CEL.

Mazda did increase the coolant capacity on the 2010 RX8. They would not have done that if they didn't have issues.

Mazda did increase the coolant capacity on the 2010 RX8.

IMO, that was the wrong approach to take.

IMO, that was the wrong approach to take.

I will not disagree because I know little of the RX-8. But what do you think would have been the right approach? When I built track bikes, if we had a hot runner, we would install larger capacity radiators. That was pretty much a universal fix. They have more capacity to absorb heat from the engine, and can expel it more quickly with the greater surface area of the cooling fins.

Mazda did increase the coolant capacity on the 2010 RX8. They would not have done that if they didn't have issues.

Actually, it is the Auto Only that has been changed for MY2010, according to the USA 09 Service Highlights the MY08 manual went from 10 to 10.6 quarts for MY09 same as MY2010.

Also the USA 2010 info appears wrong as the capacity has never been 9.2 qts Auto or 9.4 qts Manual, 10 qts was the minimum for 04-08 and 09 Auto. ;)

I will not disagree because I know little of the RX-8. But what do you think would have been the right approach?

With the RX-8/Renesis the issue has not been one of cooling system fluid capacity. It has been one of poor airflow across the core, and I believe the BHR and Mazmart radiators (assuming Ron Davis builds his for Mazmart the same way I have Griffin build them for BHR) are proof-positive of that idea. The general consensus is that the BHR radiator is the only one that actually works. If the Mazmart radiator is designed just like the BHR radiator (and I have heard it is exactly the same) then we can say the same about it, too.

One thing I have witnessed and heard from my customers is that the cooling fans run for half as long after a BHR radiator is installed. This means the threshhold for overheating is more easily avoided by using the BHR or Mazmart radiators.

Does EVERYONE need a BHR or Mazmart radiator? Nope. But those who do know who they are.

I'm curious as to why they initially have the Rad at an obtuse angle to the airflow, is it due to the need of such a larger area Rad and not enough frame space to mount it vertically or have the concluded that directing airflor across and down resulted in better cooling?

Also if you lose your plastic undertray you greatly reduce the directed air away from the rad.

...... is it due to the need of such a larger area Rad and not enough frame space to mount it vertically?

Exactly. From a strictly mathematical standpoint a certain amount of fluid is necessary to carry the heat from the engine, to the radiator, and to the atmosphere. This dictates the radiator size during the design stage. What I find peculiar is that Mazda chose to use a Koyo/Calsonic core that does not lend itself well to airflow and that the performance Koyo offering for the RX-8 doesn't do much better (or not at ALL according to some).

Additionally, if you look at the steps taken which seem to have done some measureable good (from Mazsport's Cooling System Mod, to BHR/Mamart radiators, to turning the cooling fans on sooner) they all are based on improving airflow volume across the core.

Exactly. From a strictly mathematical standpoint a certain amount of fluid is necessary to carry the heat from the engine, to the radiator, and to the atmosphere. This dictates the radiator size during the design stage. What I find peculiar is that Mazda chose to use a Koyo/Calsonic core that does not lend itself well to airflow and that the performance Koyo offering for the RX-8 doesn't do much better (or not at ALL according to some).

Additionally, if you look at the steps taken which seem to have done some measureable good (from Mazsport's Cooling System Mod, to BHR/Mamart radiators, to turning the cooling fans on sooner) they all are based on improving airflow volume across the core.

I'm curious to the amount of area under there now and will look when I get home, but why not design a core more rectangle in shape in order to mount it more vertical (perpendicular to the ground) than the angle its at now? From a physics standpoint moving air has inertia and you'll "absorb" more energy from it on a direct impact rather than "blowing" across it I would believe. The more you "absorb" the greater energy you'll exchange, especially being from water to air.

....... why not design a core more rectangle in shape in order to mount it more vertical (perpendicular to the ground) than the angle its at now?

Because the fans are mounted directly on the back of the radiator and they handle the duty of moving the needed air across the car, and not so much the motion of the car itself. This is why, when a BHR radiator is used, I don't make such a big deal about the foam surround being in place. The fans will pull a LOT of air across the core if only the radiator will let them.

BTW, Corvettes had had this same mounting scheme for a long time now.

Because the fans are mounted directly on the back of the radiator and they handle the duty of moving the needed air across the car, and not so much the motion of the car itself. This is why, when a BHR radiator is used, I don't make such a big deal about the foam surround being in place. The fans will pull a LOT of air across the core if only the radiator will let them.

BTW, Corvettes had had this same mounting scheme for a long time now.

Hmmmmm, good stuff. I'm curious about the dimensions (height/width, not depth) of your Rad. Is it the same size as stock?

If someone could post a pic that would be great. I'm questioning the stock rad to see how well the outer edges are sealed up against something (good) rather than having a small space outlining the Rad. Again i'll have to look later to truly satisfy my question.

Hmmmmm, good stuff. I'm curious about the dimensions (height/width, not depth) of your Rad. Is it the same size as stock?

If someone could post a pic that would be great. I'm questioning the stock rad to see how well the outer edges are sealed up against something (good) rather than having a small space outlining the Rad. Again i'll have to look later to truly satisfy my question.

From what I understand/recall, MazdaManiac and Olddragger (maybe others as well) have had some luck in sealing up the perimeter of the OEM radiator. I now typically suggest that as a first step whenever someone approaches me asking about radiator swaps. If they experience a viable benefit as a result, cool, as they have saved themselves a lot of money.

The BHR radiator is a direct bolt-in swap and the core is about 25"x14"x1.5". The key is that the fins and tubes allow air to pass across them more easily and the result is definitely noticeable as soon as the fans turn on.

I'm curious as to why they initially have the Rad at an obtuse angle to the airflow, is it due to the need of such a larger area Rad and not enough frame space to mount it vertically or have the concluded that directing airflor across and down resulted in better cooling?

Also if you lose your plastic undertray you greatly reduce the directed air away from the rad.

Official Explanation from 09 Service Highlights:
"To improve both the cooling ability and the sporty design, the radiator is designed to tilt forward to reduce the height and to take in the air from the inlet installed under the bumper."

BTW: MX-5 has the same position type.

Oh, I see; Mazda designed the front of the car to fit the radiator mounting and not the other way around......... :lol2:
Seriously, they tilted the radiator so it would fit the low-profile front of the car and where the Hell else is a radiator going to get it's air from anyway? The BACK of the car?

airflow is key as Ray has said. Airflow across the rad core in the pre 09's ise a problem---many causes---design of the air intake area, blocking the rear of the radiator, the angle of the mount etc.
Guess they were not as aware of the heat output of the rotary versus others.
The 09 changes sounds like they have thought about it at least.
Now we do have a little room in our cars in which the angle of the rad mount could be changed a little--not much--but a little.
I just did a secondary radiator set up--solved my heat issues--i am both lazy and cheap!!
i wonder if the radiator mount on the 09's are the same?

Ash once again--great job and good info---an over ride switch would be great if it fdesnt throw codes. With a good shroud in place you could suck up small cats at will!
OD

I just did a secondary radiator set up--solved my heat issues--i am both lazy and cheap!!


Funny I know someone else who is the exact same way!

This ones for you Swoope, OD and Flash..
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=3202492#post3202492

This ones for you Swoope, OD and Flash..
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=3202492#post3202492

Very nice ash! I might do something like that myself soon.

nice job ash--nice. great addition for the people that need the oil cooler fans.
nice.
OD

Thanks..does not take long at all really.

Do you think I should spray some Matt Black paint over the aluminum??

Would probably chip off over time??

yea it will---i have a smaller version on mine--but the road dirt and grime usually takes care of the bright part:) on its own. Just drive down one dirt road a few miles and then you will be good to go!
OD

Would primer hold the paint to the aluminum better?

Thanks..does not take long at all really.

Do you think I should spray some Matt Black paint over the aluminum??

Would probably chip off over time??

I used the exact same mesh and tried several paints. Some of them are crap, the latest one I used is a self-priming matte black paint from Home Depot. The guy at the counter said this is one of the most durable paints they have and should last a long time.

So far it's pretty good. The damn bugs stick to it like crazy though. Some rocks managed to chip off tiny pieces of the paint but it's holding up much better than anything else I tried after about 1K.

I'll grab a pic of the bottle and the car for you if you want. I don't think it'll last forever, I think it's like calipers, you gotta touch it up once in a while. But, it's far better than the last few paints I tried.

Thanks...I am down under, may not have the same brand, but I agree, there are paints and paints, cheap spray can paints are CHEAP quality.