I have owned and raced many cars (sports cars mostly). I have to admit I truly don't understand how the RX-8 can be so quick at an auto-x course. (even at the track up to a certain point) :dunno: . The car doesn't feel very fast nor does it feel super special, yet it just keeps going and deliver solid times each time out. I have to wait another two weeks before I take the car back to VIR, but I can't wait when it happens! The car is just interesting. It is not a solid HR hitter, but you know it is going to put up the numbers when it counts at the end!

its because mazda is godly at suspension design and weight distribution

and because you dont need a high hp car for auto x

which is why the miata is like the number 1 car in auto x

Are you going to VIR september 7-8 for the MVP track event? If so I'll be there too :)

its smooth--everything happens a little at the time--so easy to drive smooth.
great chassis and braking--engine--nah.
OD

smooth is fast, fast is smooth. :)
It's great at auto-x because as mentioned before high HP cars aren't always what's needed for those courses.
The suspension setup definitely helps us out.

Oh, and the fact that you're pretty much in the same gear the whole time.


Where's Isley when we need him?

Where's Isley when we need him?

Modifying his car to run slower. :banghead:

I'm not sure what you're talking about...since the RX8 has begun to dominate BS, the class has had among the lowest percent increases in PAX in Solo. :dunno:

I am going to be at VIR labor day weekend instead.

I think the best way to describe the RX-8 is that it is the slowest fast car I have ever driven. Let's hope it won't be a huge let down at VIR.

...

yep the rx8 got a good suspension and timing

most mazdas seem to outperform their paper specs. that's the value of good chassis tuning.

I am going to be at VIR labor day weekend instead.

I think the best way to describe the RX-8 is that it is the slowest fast car I have ever driven. Let's hope it won't be a huge let down at VIR.

It won't be. You'll be down on torque, way up there on handling. The RX-8 "hauling the mail" up the Esses to Turn 10, and down through the 'Coaster and Hog Pen is worth a Six Flags "A" ticket.

Wish I could afford back-to-back track days, I'd run with you. Now that I've got this ignition problem sorted, I'd love to REALLY run the back straight out of Oak Tree and see what the 'Zonk' can do. :worship:

I think the best way to describe the RX-8 is that it is the slowest fast car I have ever driven. Let's hope it won't be a huge let down at VIR.

Because of the relatively light weight, excellent brakes, balanced chassis and great suspension, you will carry so much speed through corners that you won't be let down.

It won't be. You'll be down on torque, way up there on handling. The RX-8 "hauling the mail" up the Esses to Turn 10, and down through the 'Coaster and Hog Pen is worth a Six Flags "A" ticket.

Wish I could afford back-to-back track days, I'd run with you. Now that I've got this ignition problem sorted, I'd love to REALLY run the back straight out of Oak Tree and see what the 'Zonk' can do. :worship:

I had taken my 04 on the track, but it was a lot slower as it was a 4 spd. I still don't expect any magic with the 06 since it is still down 60+ HP to my old Nissan and nearly 200HP to the Corvette that I ran the past 4 years. Best case scenrio, I run within 3 seconds of the 350z. That's all I can hope for at this point.

It's nice to have a car that you can plan for the corner rather than react to it since there is a lot less acceleration and braking involved.

Because of the relatively light weight, excellent brakes, balanced chassis and great suspension, you will carry so much speed through corners that you won't be let down.

You don't really carry that much more speed than other cars. It just feels that way because you don't have to spend time doing heavy braking

I've always wondered this myself... for example the Best Motoring vids always show the 8 getting its ass handed to it in just about every comparo. Though in autox the 8 just dominates its class. :cool:

My (completely uneducated) theory is that perhaps its easier to run time attacks with this car, especially on more complex tracks, than it is to mix it up with other cars road-race style. The relatively low torque makes it difficult to overtake on a sub-optimal race line, but when its just you and the course you can really take advantage of the sweet and easy handling.

To be honest, I just think the car is quick in autox because the car travels so slow down the straightaway that you have time to think about the corner rather than have to react to it. I think the advantage will be a lot less at the track, especially ones where it requires HP to do. I will see what the datalogger says, too bad i didnt have it a few yeas back.

and it still takes a licking from the puny Miata ....

the difference between street and R tires on the RX-8 is like night and day too

I am going to be at VIR labor day weekend instead.

I think the best way to describe the RX-8 is that it is the slowest fast car I have ever driven. Let's hope it won't be a huge let down at VIR.

You and the 8 are gonna love VIR. Are you doing MazdaDrivers or MVP?

the difference between street and R tires on the RX-8 is like night and day too

maybe it would be different on a track, but i have to say i didn't enjoy my runs in a BS RX-8 as much as i expected. on 285s, the car seemed to have an insane amount of body roll...way more than the ES MR2 i'm driving right now. the grip was astounding, but it took a long time to get set in a corner; the roll just really threw me (literally, all over the car). it might be faster than an STX-prepped one, but i have to think the STX car would be more fun.

if speed/$$ is all that means fun, i don't know why anyone would waste time in anything but an F125.

There's no magic to the RX-8 -- as Sipe pointed out, it's no faster than 170 hp Miatas and Solstii around the cones. Its success in B Stock is largely attributable to several fatal flaws in the 350Z and the fact that no one's brought out a 968 in years. :)

To illustrate the point -- the RX-8 was initially classed alongside the S2000 because their stats looked pretty similar. Now everyone's beloved PAX estimates that an S2000 should be more than a half second quicker than an RX-8 on a sixty-second course; far from a monumental difference, but hardly one indicative of any miraculous superiority on the RX-8's part.

You and the 8 are gonna love VIR. Are you doing MazdaDrivers or MVP?

I am going with Mazdadrivers, I do them every year.

I don't think R comps on the RX-8 makes as much of a difference as cars like the Z because the car is already fairly balanced from the factory. It doesn't need super grippy tires to get rid of some of that understeer. From my datalog, I can see my Corvette and Z both pulled more Gs than the RX-8. Yet somehow the car still manages to do enough to keep up. Track, not faster. Autox, close.

There's no magic to the RX-8 -- It's success in B Stock is largely attributable to several fatal flaws in the 350Z

I once saw a fascinating TV show the showed the results of a study of (human) beauty - specifically, the study strove to understand what beauty was, and what it wasn't. Turns out, beauty is primarily (but not only) defined by a lack of flaws or imperfections.

So, does the RX-8 posses dynamic beauty & grace, or is it just a bundle without flaws? :) I would argue there is some magic in what Mazda puts into it's cars, using the term loosely, anyway. They know how to get the basics right, and the result is a form of "magic," if you will, in that the car performs beyond expectations when viewed from the over-hyped and one-dimensional power-to-weight ratio performance metric.

Having said that, autocross & track are different things (duh). The physical size of the car (I'm not talking weight here - although that is obviously important as well - I'm talking wheelbase & width) matters a lot. Drive an MX-5 & RX-8 back to back on a solo course to see what I mean. The MX-5 is just easier to hustle around an autocross course. But I'd put an RX-8 up against an MX-5 on a track any day. Same holds true for a 350-Z vs. and RX-8 - we all know which car would come out on top on a track. But the RX-8's relative lack of flaws allows it to be a little quicker on a solo course where power isn't such a big factor.

I think it comes down to how drivable the car is. It does not have enough power to get you in trouble. Has good enough brakes to stop the car with no fuss. Good enough suspension you will not get any surprises, mild understeer is built in, makes the car very "safe" and easy to drive.

That, and its just a big fat Miata.

and it still takes a licking from the puny Miata ....



Are you referring to CS?....or ES? :spank:

That, and its just a big fat Miata.

So true - that's why I bought mine (RX-8, that is) to begin with! It was my "comfortable" Miata while my Miata was my "race" car. Now, the Miata is gone and I've got coilovers & a racing bucket seat in the RX-8. I suppose I'm incurable.

I think it comes down to how drivable the car is. It does not have enough power to get you in trouble. Has good enough brakes to stop the car with no fuss. Good enough suspension you will not get any surprises, mild understeer is built in, makes the car very "safe" and easy to drive.

That, and its just a big fat Miata.

yeah.. i believe if it had 30+ more whp, and more torque, it would be harder to get around the corners.. Maybe some of these turboed and supercharged cars on here should auto x and give us some results.

So true - that's why I bought mine (RX-8, that is) to begin with!

same here. :yesnod: and soon my miata will be gone, and the RX-8 will be getting the suspension goodies. i bought a Protege in '02 b/c it was the most "miata-ish" econocar on the market.

the same way spec miatas do...maintain momentum.

yeah.. i believe if it had 30+ more whp, and more torque, it would be harder to get around the corners.. Maybe some of these turboed and supercharged cars on here should auto x and give us some results.

Well if you were in a class that allowed FI you would likely make chassis and wheel/tire changes accordingly. If a proper balance is kept you would keep the car very drivable.

I had taken my 04 on the track, but it was a lot slower as it was a 4 spd. I still don't expect any magic with the 06 since it is still down 60+ HP to my old Nissan and nearly 200HP to the Corvette that I ran the past 4 years. Best case scenrio, I run within 3 seconds of the 350z. That's all I can hope for at this point.

It's nice to have a car that you can plan for the corner rather than react to it since there is a lot less acceleration and braking involved.

Yep, the operative word for the stock -8 is "Momentum", ie. not enough raw power to get you *to* the corner, but superior balance to get you *through* the corner.

Got my metal ass handed to me on WGI's straights by high-power Porsches, took partial reimbursements running through the corners and esses with said German engineering. I got lapped, but it took cars costing four to seven times mine to do it.

That Pettit kit is starting to look better...

exactly U--its driveable and easy to get out of trouble/re-cover.
low h/p and tq means that mid corner and exit the throttle is not really much of a factor as in higher powered lower weight cars. braking is excellant--but add power to the car and the resulting higher speeds will turn the brakes into very good but not excellant.
Same with suspenion set up and aero. above 125mph or so , things change. Its not as near as solid of a car at those higher speeds.
Also in oem form there is not a great deal of lift throttle oversteer. Its still there but if to back of anywhere near gradual the chassis seems to not be affected.
I could go on
its a great little package.
OD

That, and its just a big fat Miata.

With triangle shaped balls....

You don't really carry that much more speed than other cars. It just feels that way because you don't have to spend time doing heavy braking

You're not doing it right.

On street tires I'm carrying substantially more speed than a lot of other cars (mentioned in this thread) also on street tires.

You're not doing it right.

On street tires I'm carrying substantially more speed than a lot of other cars (mentioned in this thread) also on street tires.

1 or 2mph tops, there is no magic. Heck, my Corvette can carry more mph through a steady corner, but it doesn't make it any easier to drive or better in transition. Cars running 305s can generate a lot of grip too, but you also have to spend a lot of time braking and accelerating

what gen corvette?

Either way, pretty interesting we are talking about the same 2 cars when you compare the MSRP - and thats regardless of the answer.

what gen corvette?

Either way, pretty interesting we are talking about the same 2 cars when you compare the MSRP - and thats regardless of the answer.

C6.

If you compare price, you can say S2000, a C4 and many others, they are priced just as well as the RX-8. The question isn't about the cost of the car. It's just interesting how a car that doesn't accelerate very well and doesn't feel very fast can always put up respectable time, especially during autox. It still does okay at the track days for what it is. I guess you can compare the RX-8 to a hard nose ball player that doesn't do anything great, yet it would always find a way to finish in the top 20 of the standings every year.

C6.

If you compare price, you can say S2000, a C4 and many others, they are priced just as well as the RX-8.

we're not speaking the same language here and I'm too tired to get into it.

I hope your $50,000 c6 with 305's can hang a couple MPH on a $30,000 225....245....275 width rx8.

we're not speaking the same language here and I'm too tired to get into it.

I hope your $50,000 c6 with 305's can hang a couple MPH on a $30,000 225....245....275 width rx8.

Of course, it also put 10 seconds on the RX-8 at VIR.

Of course, it also put 10 seconds on the RX-8 at VIR.

so was the whole point of this thread to point out the rx8 has less hp than a c6 vette and a Z car?

so was the whole point of this thread to point out the rx8 has less hp than a c6 vette and a Z car?

I think you were the one that brought up the comparison, not me

C6.

If you compare price, you can say S2000, a C4 and many others, they are priced just as well as the RX-8. The question isn't about the cost of the car. It's just interesting how a car that doesn't accelerate very well and doesn't feel very fast can always put up respectable time, especially during autox. It still does okay at the track days for what it is. I guess you can compare the RX-8 to a hard nose ball player that doesn't do anything great, yet it would always find a way to finish in the top 20 of the standings every year.


ohhhhh your one of those people huh?

the reason has already been explained to you at least 10 times in this thread

its the same reason the miata is the number 1 best handling car in auto x

on courses so tight and technical its all about weight, manuverability, and weight distribution and power last

which is why mazdas do so well, the miata for example is like driving a go kart

the 8 just like the miata has a chassis that was designed to take turns, watch any comparison video with the rx8, like the edmuns vid with the 8 vs the 350z

it may not be the fastest but it can take a turn faster and smoother because of its design and powerband

your vette may be fast but rex's have been smoking you on the turns for generations

I think you were the one that brought up the comparison, not me

I was?

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3178060&postcount=14

You guys should have quit while you were ahead.

You're not doing it right.

On street tires I'm carrying substantially more speed than a lot of other cars (mentioned in this thread) also on street tires.
No, they're not doing it right. There should be very little difference between how much speed equally driven sports cars on good tires (be they Corvettes, RX-8s, or Miatas) carry through the apex. Track days aren't a good venue for comparing cars since driver skill and determination vary so much. If you're carrying "substantially more speed" than other cars, odds are they just aren't pushing as hard as you are.

ohhhhh your one of those people huh?

your vette may be fast but rex's have been smoking you on the turns for generations
You do realize that, per your own example, a Super Stock Corvette is one of the three fastest Stock-class autocross out there, right? A C5 Z06 will put a second and a half (a monumental margin) on an equally-driven RX-8 on a sixty-second autocross course? Someone's getting "smoked in the turns" all right, but it's sure not the Corvette.

Let's bring it back to two more comparable cars: the S2000 and the Solstice GXP. Both cars are comparable in dimensions, power, weight, and cost to the RX-8. Both cars are classed higher than the RX-8 in autocross. The Solstice is classed higher in road racing, and while the S2000 and the RX-8 are in the same road racing class, the S2000's handicapped with ballast to within 50 pounds of the RX-8 although it comes from the factory 200 pounds lighter.

Let's be realistic about what the RX-8 is and isn't. It's definitely a great package that's fun to drive and inexpensive while also handling well and having room to carry four people. A giant killer amongst sports cars it's not, though.

i can tell you this--i went fi and i am putting out about 300hp to the wheels and approx 200 tq.
i run 275/35 nittos(not the best track tire but ok) and track pads--you get the picture.
C6's that are driven well do not smoke me anymore. They still pull be coming out of the turns a little and also pull me a little on the long straights, but it seems like they are not as quick in transitioning and dont trail brake as well. Sometimes their gearing is off a little so they have to shift more.
C6's are great cars--dont get me wrong. But the RX8 with a little more power shows that its chassis, brakes etc can run in the same league.
The c6 seems to be a little more stable at speed over 120
OD

^The 8 needs more aero, everyone knows that Denny. I agree whole heartily with you though.

You do realize that, per your own example, a Super Stock Corvette is one of the three fastest Stock-class autocross out there, right? A C5 Z06 will put a second and a half (a monumental margin) on an equally-driven RX-8 on a sixty-second autocross course? Someone's getting "smoked in the turns" all right, but it's sure not the Corvette.

Let's bring it back to two more comparable cars: the S2000 and the Solstice GXP. Both cars are comparable in dimensions, power, weight, and cost to the RX-8. Both cars are classed higher than the RX-8 in autocross. The Solstice is classed higher in road racing, and while the S2000 and the RX-8 are in the same road racing class, the S2000's handicapped with ballast to within 50 pounds of the RX-8 although it comes from the factory 200 pounds lighter.

Let's be realistic about what the RX-8 is and isn't. It's definitely a great package that's fun to drive and inexpensive while also handling well and having room to carry four people. A giant killer amongst sports cars it's not, though.


you see you didnt read my statement correctly, i said rex's i did not say strictly rx8's

so you see that brings into the equation the fully built fd's that have the power, handling and braking ability to match the vettes on the courses

and because of the fd's superior chassis design if you factor out driving abilities the fd will corner somewhat faster and out brake a vette

you see you didnt read my statement correctly, i said rex's i did not say strictly rx8's

and because of the fd's superior chassis design if you factor out driving abilities the fd will corner somewhat faster and out brake a vette
Firstly, this thread's about RX-8s, not RX-7s.

Secondly: prove it. What "superior chassis design"? What data do you have showing that an FD RX-7 will corner faster than, and outbrake, a modern Corvette?

I'm aware of very little recent competition data on the RX-7 (Best Motoring tests, random track days, and "my buddy smoked a Ferrari on the I-90 in his Accord" don't count). The only relevant data point I can think of is again from autocross, which is an imperfect measure but one heavily skewed towards agility. The FD RX-7 was a great autocross car and king of the Stock class hill until the C5 Corvette (non-Z06) came along and dethroned it. The C5 was itself consequently dispatched by the C5 Z06. That hardly suggests that an FD could "corner somewhat faster and outbrake a Corvette" when both cars are in stock or close to stock form.

Further muddying the water is the fact that the fastest way to drive a more powerful car around a track may involve a "point-and-shoot" driving style, with more of the turning getting done earlier in order to allow earlier throttle application. That being the case, even finding data indicating that a 255 hp RX-7 or a 232 hp RX-8 carries more speed through the apex on a given corner on a given track than another car doesn't necessarily prove that the other car isn't capable of matching the Mazdas.

I was?

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3178060&postcount=14

See post #1, I responded to you based on
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmak26b View Post
You don't really carry that much more speed than other cars. It just feels that way because you don't have to spend time doing heavy braking
You're not doing it right.

On street tires I'm carrying substantially more speed than a lot of other cars (mentioned in this thread) also on street tires.
__________________

i can tell you this--i went fi and i am putting out about 300hp to the wheels and approx 200 tq.
i run 275/35 nittos(not the best track tire but ok) and track pads--you get the picture.
C6's that are driven well do not smoke me anymore. They still pull be coming out of the turns a little and also pull me a little on the long straights, but it seems like they are not as quick in transitioning and dont trail brake as well. Sometimes their gearing is off a little so they have to shift more.
C6's are great cars--dont get me wrong. But the RX8 with a little more power shows that its chassis, brakes etc can run in the same league.
The c6 seems to be a little more stable at speed over 120
OD

Shift what more? I think I did NJMP, VIR and Shenandoah and Pocono with just 3rd and 4th gear in the C6. You have forced induction, so not sure how it changes your powerband. I know my RX-8 will require way more shifts simply because I need to be over 6000RPM to make power. It's been a while since I last drove the RX-8 on track, but I can't see it being any different than driving the 350z or EVO as far as shifts go. Anyway this isn't about which car is faster (I know the RX-8 isn't), I was more amazed at how the RX-8 can be so quick despite not doing anything exciting, autox especially.

I agree that the RX-8 is like a faster version of the Miata while the 350z is a slower version of the Corvette

Amen brother.

You guys should have quit while you were ahead.


No, they're not doing it right. There should be very little difference between how much speed equally driven sports cars on good tires (be they Corvettes, RX-8s, or Miatas) carry through the apex. Track days aren't a good venue for comparing cars since driver skill and determination vary so much If you're carrying "substantially more speed" than other cars, odds are they just aren't pushing as hard as you are.

Let's be realistic about what the RX-8 is and isn't. It's definitely a great package that's fun to drive and inexpensive while also handling well and having room to carry four people. A giant killer amongst sports cars it's not, though.