EDIT: This thread has been superceded by a subsequent thread... Got My Letter: Flooding Covered Under Warranty! (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20065).

My car was towed last week. Due to the holiday, it was not until today that it was repaired (6 days). My dealership called today and told me that Mazda would not cover the deflooding under the warranty. This was contrary to what several people on this thread reported, so I called Mazda. After waiting 20 or so minutes on hold, they took my call and told me that they would cover it. I was very pleased, as you can imagine. When I came to pick up my car tonight, however, here is what my invoice said, right over the signature line:

CUSTOMER STATES THE CAR CRANKS AND DOES NOT START.
TOWED IN
FLOODED
R&R PLUGS AND CLEAN, DEFLOOD VEHICLE, CLEAR CODES AND TEST DRIVE
ONE TIME GOODWILL PER MAZDA. CUSTOMER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY FUTURE FLOODING CONDITIONS. PROCEDURES FOR STARTING AND RUNNING VEHICLE ARE DETAILED IN THE OWNERS MANUAL
GO102XRX .4 .9

TOTAL INVOICE: $0

The comment that the "procedures for starting and running vehicle are detailed in the owners manual" is just not true; the procedure for short trips is in the brochure that was delivered with the car, not in the manual. Also, I followed the Emergency Start Procedure on page 7-20 of my manual to the letter. It simply did not work.

The service manager told me that deflooding would have been approximately $150 had it not been picked up by Mazda. When I asked about whether the tow would be free if needed it again, he said, "probably." When I asked if there had been other defloods, he said "not really, no." I want to, but just don't believe him.

When I asked about the possibility of the hotter spark plugs for the leading side as a remedy to flooding (part No. "RE6A-L" is apparently available to reduce the chance of fouling the plugs for "those who drive their car at very low speed"), he told me that I probably didn't need the plugs and that I was lucky because "they are like $50 each." I pointed out that this would be a bargain compaired to another 6 days without the car and being stranded down-state, where I occassionally have to travel.

"Houston, we have a problem..." Mazda did not tell me it was a one-time goodwill fix when I spoke to them on the phone... they told me "we'll cover it." I followed the manual information - it did not work. With so many others thinking that the defloods are covered, I think we need better clarification on this. I think Mazda is encouraging the ambiguity here... I doubt most people would have even read the repair receipt considering the big "NO CHARGE" at the bottom.

Please understand... I'm not saying that they must cover it. I'm only saying they need to be more up front. Putting it on the invoice over the signature line as a way of informing me of the nature of the repair is slimy. It's exactly what a lawyer would do that wanted to minimize the issue but hold it over customers later... the better approach would be to craft an open policy.

Please pass it on... deflooding is currently not covered by Mazda.

I think the dealer is trying to bully you. Take it up with whoever you were talking to's boss/supervisor or call Mazda back and tell 'em your dealer is trying to bully you around.

If I saw a clause like that on an invoice I was going to sign, I would strike it out, initial where I struck out the clause and then sign it.

This is totally unacceptable.

What happens if you accidentally stall your car when it's cold? Instant flood, and you're stuck wherever - in a parking lot, in an intersection, who knows.

I suspect if everyone who experiences the problem complains to NHTSA, a recall will be forthcoming, further damaging the image of both Mazda and the 8. If that happens it's their own fault, IMHO.

Until the flooding issues, the S-Plan pricing had proven to be just too good and I was about ready to sign on the dotted line, but this isn't like the HP non-issue; this is a serious problem as I've been driving stick for over 20 years now and still will accidentally stall my car every now and then; if any one of these resulted in a flooding situation, I'd be in the mood to dump the car the next day. Fun is fun; being stranded at 3:00 AM in the middle of nowhere because of a bad 1st gear start is unacceptable in a car built in 2004, my love for all things rotary notwithstanding...

Originally posted by sferrett
I think the dealer is trying to bully you.

Very possibly. Can others that have had a dealer service their flooded car check their invoices and post the info here. I'm going to take this up with Mazda unless I discover that Mazda has been uniform in the apparent policy, "CUSTOMER WILL BE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY FUTURE FLOODING CONDITIONS." As I said, I don't think one-time-for-free would necessarily be an unfair policy, it just needs to be disclosed and universally applied so that those considering buying the car can make an informed decision.

One more thing... thanks to everyone on this board that helped me work through my flooding problem and provided helpful and useful inforamation. You guys are the best!

Does seem strange. Perhapse Mazda is telling the dealers they will cover it or only paying them a fraction of the cost? Hence the wording.

At least you got her back MEGAREDS. i guess we just wait for an owner to experience a second flood and see what happens ???

Ok, so, unlike a lot of folks on this forum, I never had a rotary. For all you who owned RX-7s, was flooding an issue? Or is this a Renesis issue?

I agree with BillK, fun's fun, and I'll take my lumps if I don't follow proper proceedure, but I'm gonna get positively bucky about needing a tow over a simple stall out. And with kids in the car...

I think there's a lot more gloom and doom being portrayed about the flooding than is really necessary, which is understantable... Folks don't generally post whenever their car doesn't flood so you tend to get a skewed impression when you read through the complaints - Yes it's potentially an issue and it's affected some people, but I don't think it's the plague and you're gonna flood the car at the drop of a hat, especially if you're aware of the potential.

I've had my FC rx-7 flood on me twice in the 70,000 miles I've owned it - one time from moving it 20 feet out of my driveway and parking it overnight (a classic cold shutdown), and once when I stalled it hot (I was distracted by a cop directing traffic around a burst watermain and let the engine run down to stall in 3rd gear cause I forgot to push the clutch in...). In both cases I was able to get the car going again (I roll started it down the hill I was parked on in the first instance, and pulled the EGI fuse to cut the fuel while I cranked it for a while in the second instance, much to the bemusement of the cops watching me do all of that). My FD rx-7 which I've had for about 10k miles has nearly flooded on me once (hot), due to a weak battery and subsequent slow cranking speed (I don't drive it much :( ) - in that case I was able to start it by flooring the gas and cranking it until it finally (barely) started - it was a close call though.

I think cranking speed has a lot to do with it, so when it's cold or the battery isn't fully charged your chances go up. Also I believe if you stall it when cold (rich due to choke plus stalling it gives a very abrupt and unexpected stop) it's more likely to be an issue.

So no, it's not specific to the Renesis but I also don't think it's something which happens a whole lot either. It most likely affects some people more than others due maybe to driving habit (short trips meaning a battery which is never 100% charged up) or environment.

Just my experience though, your mileage may vary.

My concern is what if you go somewhere and have to valet your 8. There are a few restaurants in my area that are valet only. Must I have the valet sign an assumption of liability if they flood my 8?

Either that or I don't go out and eat at fancy restaurants anymore...only drive-throughs :p

Originally posted by WHealy
At least you got her back MEGAREDS.

Yea, yea... just put 80 miles on her too. (God I love this car!) I was in a bad mood because I was without my car for 6 days and the dealership was less than sensitive. I also think they may have been pissed at me because I called Mazda, which I don't understand but the previous poster may be correct... the dealers may have to eat some of this cost; not really fair in my case, if so, because I bought from another dealer. In any case, they really need to work on the wording of the invoice... it's not generating goodwill -- which is ironic.

Although driving around has calmed me down, my original point is still valid... many told me that I'd be covered under warranty, and I wasn't. We need to get this clarified. I think there is some general misconception out there. If they had charged me for the tow, this could easily have been $250.

Also, a recent poll here shows about 20% have flooded their RENESIS engines. SEE Have you flooded your Renesis? (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17498) Since this is only a 2004 model, think about it... it's like the US/British air squadrons I saw in a documentary recently that lost 1%-2% per mission during WWII after landing in France. By the time they got to Germany and had flown hundreds of sortees, there was no one left from the original group. We should all understand what to do and, at the very least, know whether calling Mazda Road Side Assistance is going to cost us or not. (By the way, RSA was "ok" on the phone when I originally called but "great" in dispatching the truck - quick, friendly, careful and very helpful in following up with a call to see if I was okay -- Mazda apparently contracted out to AAA for their towing service, and AAA did a great job).

As for rolling the car to get it started, I'm driving the automatic... you know, the kind of car that has no clutch... Damn! I knew there was a down side to chosing the "high torque" model.

Zoom Zoom...

Just cuz they wrote it on your service slip don't mean it's true. They are trying to modify the conditions of an existing contract, and they have no right to do so unilaterally. Since you sign the service slip when the service is done, that could be construed as your acceptance of this new condition. Personally, I would line out that provision before signing the service slip.

What are all you guys gonna do when the warranty runs out?

Get another 8 of course!

I think there are a few factors here.

First off, most people still have relatively low miles on their engines. A low-mileage engine still hasn't broken in completely, and at that time is FAR more prone to flooding than when it's totally broken in.

Second, you do have to "think rotary" a bit. Once you accept and get used to the idea that you can't move the car bone cold and immediately shut it off, you'll be fine. Backing the car out of the garage and shutting it off will likely flood it. Instead, drive the car around the block really quick, park it where you want it, bring the RPM's to 3000, and turn off the car. I bet you a nickel it won't flood. Takes only a minute to do.

Remember, the cold flooding only happens when the engine is BONE cold, from sitting overnight. If you let a valet park the car, go eat, then have him bring your car after you're done eating, the car wouldn't have had time to cool down enough to get close to cold flooding. Engines hold heat for quite some time, especially rotaries.

Learn how to unflood the car yourself. What the dealership did is NOT rocket science. Most times, pulling the EGI fuse (or the RX-8's equivalent - there's gotta be a fuel injection fuse under the hood), cranking the car for 5-10 seconds with the pedal to the floor, then reinstalling the fuse and cranking will do it. If not, the plugs are fouled - pull the leading plugs, clean the gas off, reinstall, and start. That's exactly what the dealer did.

As far as accidentally stalling the car - if you stall the car cold, and immediately restart it (either by key or popping the clutch), you probably won't flood it. Not to mention driving the car when it's bone cold is probably less than 5% of the time you're driving the car, if not less - the chances of you stalling at another time when the car is warm are much better.

Sferrett hit the nail on the head - you only hear the bad on forums like this. You never post "I got in my car, drove to work, and nothing happened" which is 99% of the time.

I wouldn't shy from buying an '8 because of flooding. Remember, the rotary simply has a different set of rules. It's like me not wanting to buy a piston-engine car because if I don't change the timing belt at 60,000 miles it could break and ruin the engine. Rotaries don't have timing belts. People aren't scared of buying cars with piston engines - they just learn and accept the rule. Same goes for a rotary. The car isn't idiot-proof, there are some procedures you have to learn that are different, but it's not that big of a deal.

Dale

I have had the same problem with my dealer. I got my 8 to unflood by taking out the fuel pump fuse and cranking for a while. Now it is having problems starting and the gas mileage has dropped to under 16 on the highway. Also had the milky oil. Dealer said that the oil was due to the flooding, and would not be covered under warranty even though that is a more widespread issue. Of course they didnt tell me this until I picked the car up. The new plugs also wouldnt be covered either, but they didnt put them in. Of course they just said we didnt have any problems starting it, but today it barely turned over. Now I have to do the runaround to get work done. I should have bought the Infiniti.

I disagree with the likelyhood of stalling the car cold - I'm more likely to stall the car cold as it's usually when I first get in for the day, especially after a vacation, that I will misjudge the clutch engagement point and stall the car.

Also, "cold" is relative; last night it dropped to -5 degrees F here, and my current car wasn't warmed up after my 20 mile drive home. A bad start in 1st anywhere along this route last night would likely have left me stranded unless it takes time for the flooding to occur after the engine dies - something no one, not even Mazda, has confirmed as of yet.

I love the car, but I really do think this is a big red card safety issue that would fall within NHTSA's recall guidelines (after all, they've issued recalls for cars with faulty gas gauges before, so I don't see how having a car not restart if the engine dies is any less a hazard...)

Personally, I'd enjoy knowing how you can drive a car 20 miles (in any temperature) and not have the engine warm up to full operating temperature - sounds spookey to me.

Regarding the concept that only those who have had problems will be writing about them, of course that's true. However, the poll on the subject gave a cross-section of 8-drivers a chance to share their experiences. I voted---never flooded, take precautions. While not everyone took the poll, I've got to agree with an earlier poster, 20% with flooding is a scarey number.

Personally, I don't even put the car in gear without at least 3 minutes of warm-up. On "cold" (it's never cold here, it's Houston) mornings, I'll probably give it five minutes to warm up while I pack up my stuff for work. I'm hoping like all hell that this is enough precaution, but I'm going to be mad as hell if I get charged for a tow or to unflood the engine. I'm gonna be even madder if they try to blame milky-looking oil on something I've done. The fact that I'll be pissed is inconsequential I know, but it felt good to put it in writing.

Bottom line, if flooding is this common and this great an inconvenience, Mazda should without question, unflood for free.

Not that spooky at all - if the ambient temperature is that low, most larger engines (6 or 8 cylinder) will not reach normal operating temperature. In fact, most larger engines won't even warm the antifreeze enough to provide heat via the heater until after ten or more minutes of driving at those temps.

Finally, modern engines warm best by driving off immediately and keeping one's driving behavior in check (no extreme revs, no full throttle acceleration.) Warming by idling just wastes gas, especially in a rotary. I don't care if Mazda does unflood for free; having to have your car towed and sit at a dealer for a day or more because of a stall is simply unacceptable in this day and age, and Mazda's going to get more unfavorable publicity from this than from a minor discrepancy in HP numbers most people don't care about...

Just thought I'd share my "positive" story. I was changing the oil in the Miata this past Sunday morning and had to move it over to the other side of the garage. To make room I had to put the RX-8 over on the other side. I started it, backed out into the driveway, then drove into the other bay of the garage and shut it off. After the Miata's oil change, I got into the RX-8, started it up, and moved it back to it's normal spot. No excessive cranking, no drama, just started right up and did another VERY short drive. I have only had one instance since I bought it in August where it cranked for a few seconds. I had been driving it for a while, parked in a parking lot for about 30 min, and then started it back up. It didn't pop to life in a couple cranks like normal, so I stopped, and cranked again for a few seconds. It started up and I drove home. Of course, while it was in for the oil pan replacement and first oil change, I was chatting with a fellow who was picking up his RX-8 because his wife started it, moved it a few feet, then shut it off and it wouldn't start.

Been drivin manuels for 37 years and can't remember ever flaming out on a cold start and having a flooding problem. You do have my attention. I've had this toy for a week and it's starting to get cold. I'll give it a five min. warm up and then go down the road.

Remember, I'm talking about the engine being BONE cold. If it's -5 outside and you're driving around and stall the car, the car might not be up to temperature, but there's still a LOT of heat in the engine core. It takes a big explosion to move a car forward, and that's a lot of heat. If you stalled it, then left the car and came back in an hour, you might have a problem, but the big thing here is *core* temperature in the combustion chamber, which is hundreds of degrees with the car running.

To the fellow that flooded the car bad - I would look at getting a new set of leading plugs and do an oil change. After a bad flood, it's always a good idea to change the oil, as you can get some gas in the oil. The leading plugs are likely not operating at 100% if your fuel mileage is any indication. This is a relatively simple procedure you can do yourself if you're even slightly mechanically inclined.

BTW, if you're driving the car in a VERY cold climate, it might be worth swapping to the hotter leading plugs for the winter - the 6's. They will retain heat better and stay cleaner. Swap back to the '7s when spring hits. There's a thread in the tech section on this, BTW.

Dale

Originally posted by BillK
This is totally unacceptable.

What happens if you accidentally stall your car when it's cold? Instant flood, and you're stuck wherever - in a parking lot, in an intersection, who knows.

I suspect if everyone who experiences the problem complains to NHTSA, a recall will be forthcoming, further damaging the image of both Mazda and the 8. If that happens it's their own fault, IMHO.

Until the flooding issues, the S-Plan pricing had proven to be just too good and I was about ready to sign on the dotted line, but this isn't like the HP non-issue; this is a serious problem as I've been driving stick for over 20 years now and still will accidentally stall my car every now and then; if any one of these resulted in a flooding situation, I'd be in the mood to dump the car the next day. Fun is fun; being stranded at 3:00 AM in the middle of nowhere because of a bad 1st gear start is unacceptable in a car built in 2004, my love for all things rotary notwithstanding...

BillK...I absolutely, totally, unconditionally agree with you. This is NOT acceptable. I was also about to sign the dotted line and didnt due to my inhibitions on the finicky rotory.
This issue must be resolved at once by Mazda. Their reputation is on the line. For the dealer to tell this gentleman that it was a "good will" fix, is ludicrous. It was a fix, free of charge from Mazda, because someone fu**ed up with the design. I sure am glad my Honda is still sitting in my driveway. And like you said, fun is fun, but a dead $30K car is no fun at all!!!

Catchme:

In all fairness to Mazda... the language chosen on the invoice was probably not language Mazda chose. My dealership was just not very tactful. Mazda did tell me that the car should not be moved very short distances before I bought it, and I did allow the car to be driven the way Mazda told me to avoid. The car did exactly what they said it would do, although I was disappointed that the emergency procedure failed.

I think Mazda is under no obligation to cover our cars under warranty for these repairs, but I think they need to make a decision on the issue and say publicly what that decision is, because it is affecting very many of us. Some people are not being told that this is an issue, and I am sure some dealerships are downplaying it. What I want to know is whether the "one-time-deflood-for-free" policy is one that will apply to all of us, or just some of us. Also, I want to know for how long that policy will continue. If I get some time this weekend I will compose a letter to their customer satisfaction people and let everyone know what the answer is. I suspect that they will be expecting my letter... If they don't read these posts, they're missing the best source of how their customers view their cars.

I have to say that IMHO this flooding problem IS a serious issue that needs to be fixed. I would hate to have people downplay the issue on a new model car and not have Mazda address it. I say complain like hell until Mazda fixes it. If it floods 2, 3, 100 times, Mazda should pay for the tow, clean the plugs, reset engine codes. Log a call to Mazda (just like I did) and keep calling them until it's fixed. Actually when I called, they said Mazda was working on a fix due to so many complaints.

People (who my guess is have never experienced flooding an RX-8) say 1) read the service manual 2) pull fuse or floor gas pedal 3) clean the plugs in order to unflood the engine. It's really not practical to do these things, and I think enough people have posted that even if you do these things yourself, it's still a bitch to get restarted. It took me 1hr to get the rotary unflooded and I followed procedure in the manual. I would hate to have to do that again if I was trying to pick up the kids from school, make a doctors appointment, etc. What if you were traveling and the wife had to unflood the engine? If you told her to pull the spark plugs to unflood the engine when you got back home, my guess is that you'd be sleeping in the dog house for a week.

Here's another perspective. If you worked for Mazda, wouldn't you want this problem fixed. I think the people who work for Mazda have pride in the RX-8 and would appreciate customers providing constructive feedback if there's an issue.

I think you're being a bit nicer to Mazda than perhaps you should.

I have been the first to, in the past, clarify that the actions of dealers are not those of MNAO. but at the same time, if the dealer says "Mazda says we'll cover this once out of goodwill" they are, in effect, saying that is the official word from Mazda. It's not your responsibility at that point to play "he said, she said" and sort out who's telling the truth, MNAO. or your dealer.

If this is the way the Renesis works, that's fine, but it had better be in big red letters in the owner's manual, not in a "Quick Start Guide" included with the car. And I can't wait to see what Mazda's towing bills are going to be.

Example: Most hotels in Beaver Creek, CO have valet parking only. The closest Mazda dealer is in Lakewood, CO, 72 miles and two 10,000+ foot mountain passes plus the Eisenhower Tunnel to the East via I-70, or roughly two hours in good weather with light traffic. A few of those tow bills will impact MNAO's bottom line pretty quickly...

Originally posted by BillK
I think you're being a bit nicer to Mazda than perhaps you should.
Perhaps you are right, but I want to give Mazda a fair chance to respond. I am not at all sure that my invoice reflects their actual policy here. They have done so many things right with this car that I'm trying not to overreact.

MEGAREDS - I think you along with the other owners here need to put their foot down and let Auto magazines know this problem as well as continuing to discuss it on the internet and writing letters to Mazda.

There is no reason that in the year 2004 a new car is having this problem. An $8000 Hyundai doesn't have this issue then why should a $31,000 state of the art sports car have it.

Mazda needs to be held responsible for all flooded vehicles or else they will not have the incentive to fix it.

Quick example of something that happened when I had a 2001 BMW 330Ci. That year BMW made the steering lighter, magazines noticed it as well as many enthusiasts that bought the car & it was discussed on the internet many times over.
BMW mid year changed the steering to a heavier feel on all production cars and gave every owner of the early model a new revised steering rack for free plus loaner car while your car was serviced.

Now everyone who purchased this Model year BbMW knew the steering was light and even had a chance to test drive it first so you could say why should they get a free rack if they knew what they were buying yet BMW still went out of their way to make the customer happy.

When I spoke to the BMWNA representative he told me one of the big reasons for offering the swap was due to the internet forums discussing it over and over again.

Hi guys, I went thru my manual several times last night, and I can not find any reference to cold shut down. I found the flooded engine restart procedure but nothing else. Can someone tell me where in the manual it says no cold shut down to avoid flooding?

Thanks

I just wrote a letter to Mazda. I am very seriously considering the 8, and I am ready to deal with the "minor" issues of low MPG (compared to competitors G35, Z, S2000, etc) and oil consuption (even with the inconvenient location of the oil dipstick and tank), but that flooding issue is unacceptable.

There is so much "smarts" in this car, I just can't beleive there isn't a way to at least automate the shutdown procedure. If this gets fixed I'll be the first in line to get my loaded RX-8. Meanwhile I'll browse the competitor's showrooms...

Just my 2 cents...

Like i said in another tread, this flooding thing is bordering on mass hysteria. I live in very cold weather and there's no problem starting the car in the AM at -20F cold! You crank it, it starts, you buckle up and drive away. It is nonsense to let it warm up 2,3,5 minutes... waste of fuel and air polution. Just make sure not to kill the engine .

Originally posted by Mat
I just wrote a letter to Mazda. I am very seriously considering the 8, and I am ready to deal with the "minor" issues of low MPG (compared to competitors G35, Z, S2000, etc) and oil consuption (even with the inconvenient location of the oil dipstick and tank), but that flooding issue is unacceptable.

There is so much "smarts" in this car, I just can't beleive there isn't a way to at least automate the shutdown procedure. If this gets fixed I'll be the first in line to get my loaded RX-8. Meanwhile I'll browse the competitor's showrooms...

Just my 2 cents...

You should post the email address as a seperate thread so that others on the board can write them.

I know I would . . . when I borrowed my stepfathers RX8 and I almost stalled while it was cold, I seriously got very worried I would be stuck and the shopping center I went to with this 'borrowed' car.

Maybe you misunderstand what flooding is. It's not about starting your car in cold weather (you wouldn't happen to have a gray RX-8 on winter tires with no wheel caps?), but it's about having your friend/wife/yourself moving you car 5m and shutting it down cold and not being to start it up ever again, or accidentally stall the car on a stop or traffic light while it's cold and being stuck with the same problem.

Mat, i don't know if you are relating to my post, my car is red and has no winter tires on. I drive it only if the streets are cleared of any snow in the winter months.I wouldn't wnt to have to deal with all the sand,rocks and salt our great blue collars put in the streets. As for the flooding issue, i know the reasons why it happens and i know how to prevent it, i was just refering to other posts made by poeple letting the car warm up forever just in case they would happen to kill the engine backing up from the driveway.I really think this is blow way out of proportion, and even if i do flood it (God forbid) i'll think the same way. I am very sure that Mazda Canada will cover it if it happens during my waranty period.

When I first test drove a RX8 at a local dealer I stalled it when releasing the clutch. I immediately cranked it up and took off again with no problems. Second time stalling with a cold engine was mine the second day I had it, backed out of the drive way and stalled it when taking off straight. It too immediately cranked up perfectly. Guess I have been lucky both times.

Roy

Originally posted by Sea Ray
Hi guys, I went thru my manual several times last night, and I can not find any reference to cold shut down. I found the flooded engine restart procedure but nothing else. Can someone tell me where in the manual it says no cold shut down to avoid flooding?

Thanks

It's not in the manual. It's in the quick start brochure/booklet.

That's interesting. Let me quote an email I got back from mazda:

begin quote
---------------------------------------------
I have driven the RX-8 for on several occasions and we have driven it
across the country and had not experienced the flooding problem.

Also, if your vehicle is flooded, it towing and the repair is covered
under the warranty.

Mazda engineers are aware of this concern and I will forward your
comments to our Product Planning Department to ensure they know exactly
what our customers are requesting.
---------------------------------------
end quote


"Also, if your vehicle is flooded, it towing and the repair is covered
under the warranty."

Hmm.....I thought the subject of this thread was the exact opposite... and my local mazda dealer also tells me flooding is not covered under warranty.

f1michel, yeah I was relating to your post, as I am from Montreal and I've only seen 1 RX-8 since (and it was gray), and I was wondering if it was yours.

The roads are soooo ugly down here that I'm amazed they even sell RX-8's ;)

Originally posted by Mat
I just wrote a letter to Mazda. I am very seriously considering the 8, and I am ready to deal with the "minor" issues of low MPG (compared to competitors G35, Z, S2000, etc) and oil consuption (even with the inconvenient location of the oil dipstick and tank), but that flooding issue is unacceptable.

There is so much "smarts" in this car, I just can't beleive there isn't a way to at least automate the shutdown procedure. If this gets fixed I'll be the first in line to get my loaded RX-8. Meanwhile I'll browse the competitor's showrooms...

Just my 2 cents...
What? You wrote a letter to Mazda complaining about a "potential" problem with a car you don't even own?

"Inconvenient location of the oil dipstick and tank"? Huh? Again, you don't even own the car and your complaining about where the oil dipstick is? Well, let me just say, the dipstick is NOT that difficult to get to. It could be easier, but it could very well be worse. Also, I don't understand your comment about the "tank". If you're referring to the oil reservoir cap, it's right on top, just like most every other car.

Originally posted by jonalan
What? You wrote a letter to Mazda complaining about a "potential" problem with a car you don't even own?

"Inconvenient location of the oil dipstick and tank"? Huh? Again, you don't even own the car and your complaining about where the oil dipstick is? Well, let me just say, the dipstick is NOT that difficult to get to. It could be easier, but it could very well be worse. Also, I don't understand your comment about the "tank". If you're referring to the oil reservoir cap, it's right on top, just like most every other car.

I don't think he was writing to Mazda to complain about the oil dipstick, from the sound of it, he found only the flooding to be an issue and addressed Mazda with his concerns.

I don't see anything wrong with writing to Mazda BEFORE you buy the RX8 about the Flooding problem. If they are aware of it, then they are more liekly to work on fixing it which would benefit customers as well as Mazda.

jonalan, sorry, I didn't want to shock you.

I'm just the kind of guy who's careful before dropping 30k on a car, and I think the manifacturer is the right place to ask and get clarifications about problems people have been having. You know, learn about other people's problems?

Fair enough. It's just that some people tend to read comments like that and think, "Oh my god, where's the oil dipstick? Underneath the rear seats or something?"

Hehe, no problems.

I'm still confused by the email statement about the warranty though... I have to admit I am kind of hopeful...

Originally posted by jonalan
Fair enough. It's just that some people tend to read comments like that and think, "Oh my god, where's the oil dipstick? Underneath the rear seats or something?" No, but it may as well be.

I've tried several times in showrooms and with the engine cover removed there's still no way I can get to the dipstick without scraping the heck out of the back of my hand trying to wedge it between components to get back to the dipstick.

Perhaps I jjust have big hands, but it is near impossible for me, and I know I would fry my hand if the engine were at all warm...

Just out of curiosity, what COULD be done to fix this?

Originally posted by BillK
No, but it may as well be.

I've tried several times in showrooms and with the engine cover removed there's still no way I can get to the dipstick without scraping the heck out of the back of my hand trying to wedge it between components to get back to the dipstick.

Perhaps I jjust have big hands, but it is near impossible for me, and I know I would fry my hand if the engine were at all warm...

BillK,
FYI - you are supposed to check the oil when the engine is warm - that's according to the owner's manual.

Just to clarify for newbies, removing the engine cover is not required to check the oil, only for adding oil.

I was concerned about burning my hand, but it has never happened as it is not burning hot near the dipstick handle.

IMHO checking the oil is not a big deal once you get used to it. Anyone thinking about buying the car that's concerned about it should try checking the oil on a dealership or friends car - and check it while the engine is hot to see for yourself that you won't burn your hand :).

regards,
rx8cited

Haven't checked for burning, but trying it is how I found out I have to physically force my hand into the space for the dipstick each time; there's just no other way for me to reach it...

Originally posted by 5Gen_Prelude
Just out of curiosity, what COULD be done to fix this?
If you meant the hard to reach oil dipstick:

On other cars the fix has been to design a longer, shaped extension to the dipstick that allows it to be more easily grasped and pulled out.

Of course they also could have designed the engine compartment a bit more logically to begin with given the rotary's need for much more frequent oil checks than usual.

Finally (and IMHO the solution they should have implemented), they could have put an oil level gauge into the system. It's not difficult and would have raised retail pricing by perhaps $200 or so at most...

If you meant the flooding problem, well that remains to be seen; adding a last minute "hint brochure" on how to avoid flooding was not the way to handle it.

Personally, I wonder how the Renesis ever won "engine of the year" with these characteristics, though it is a pretty nifty piece of engineering in general...

Originally posted by BillK
If you meant the flooding problem, well that remains to be seen; adding a last minute "hint brochure" on how to avoid flooding was not the way to handle it.
I suspect a battle between lawyers and marketing people with the result being a compromise -- not putting the short move procedure in the manual is very strange. I'd bet it gets put in the 2005 manual.

Personally, I wonder how the Renesis ever won "engine of the year"
I have a theory on that one too. The booklet I got at the dealership before I bought my car reports this - which is part of why my expectations were so high:

"Mazda has dealt with the emissions issue - it already meets the 2005 EURO 4 requirements - and has seen to it that the same vehicle can achieve a respectable 8.3L/100km (34mpg)." If this engine got 34 miles per gallon, I'd be voting for it for engine of the year for sure. When it runs (as it almost always does, BTW), it's elegant -- just beautiful, in a classic sense -- but it burns too much fuel considering its competition like the TT gets 6 miles per gallon more. I don't understand how something that goes round and round can be less efficient than something that goes up and down, up and down, up and down...

The answer to why RENESIS so easily won Engine of the Year is found in the brochure: It says, "All performance and fuel economy figures referenced in this journal are manufacturers' data and are based on EU Cycles." They used Mazda's numbers and tested what was really a different engine than the one in my car.

I don't want to derail a thread that's already way off course, but [to try to put it back on course] I suspect that the flooding issue is one that Mazda is struggling with even now. I really hope they strike the right balance between supporting their customers and keeping the RX-8 viable, so they can improve it. Whatever they decide, the language that was used in my repair invoice (quoted at the top of this thread) is totally unacceptable.

Also, if it turns out that the hotter spark plugs fix this "flooding" issue without harming the car... I want them, as I suspect everyone else will too, which may be part of the problem. It's gonna cost Mazda quite a lot if the problem is really a "fouling" problem that gets characterized a "material defect" requiring warranty service. As my dealership said, "these plugs are like $50 each."

Yeah I meant how would you fix the flooding problem if you were Mazda. Could an ECU program correct the problem (ie run a "shutdown" procedure), or a mechanical change?

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Very possibly. Can others that have had a dealer service their flooded car check their invoices and post the info here. [/i]

I finally found my "flooding" invoice and it makes no mention of this being a one time warranty item. It only states the symptoms I gave and the steps taken for them to fix. In the cost column it just says warranty. If for some reason it floods again and they don't consider it warranty there probably be a long discussion. But I hope not because I don't want anything to mess with the smile I get when I'm cutting corners.

Originally posted by 5Gen_Prelude
Yeah I meant how would you fix the flooding problem if you were Mazda. Could an ECU program correct the problem (ie run a "shutdown" procedure), or a mechanical change?

A shutdown procedure would take care of simple "mind-slips", And I'd love to see the look on a pimply faced valet when he turned off the key and pulled it out and the engine revs to 3000. So tell me, how do you program a shutdown for a stall due to bad clutching?

I've stalled my 8 pulling out of the garage. It started right up again and I didn't even consider that I might have screwed up big time (although the chuckle I got from my wife was bad enough). I'd still like to know if Southern Californians are immune to flooding. There's this active railroad track not far from where I live. Not a good place to flood it.

We've thinking about buying an RX-8 as the "mid-life crisis car," but all this talk about the flooding problem / issue / non-problem (depending on your point of view) had us a little worried.

And then the "Is flooding covered under the warranty?" confusion in the forum added a little bit more to consider...

I called a couple of local service departments and asked questions about flooding and the warranty. Naturally, I got different answers.

So I sent an email to Mazda North America and asked them directly.

I can post the full reply for anyone interested, but the bottom line is that they said that the flooding is NOT a common occurrence, Mazda WILL cover the towing and the repair under warranty if the RX-8 does become flooded, and that Mazda is currently testing the engines with heavy duty spark plugs to see if flooding can be prevented (emphasis mine).

It seems like Mazda isn't necessarily admitting that a problem exists, but they seem to be willing to consider the possibility that maybe their design could be made even better.

That's good enough for us. Time to buy!

(And I have no idea what he meant by "heavy duty spark plugs.")

I don't know - while I'm sure Mazda has a prepared answer for concerned customers, I think it's only prudent that to wait until they do have a solution if the problem concerns you, in case:

1) There is no technological fix

2) The fix requires some type of redesign that is not applicable to previous RX-8s

My car has flooded twice this week. The first time I had to have it towed to the dealer, which ate an entire day. I had to listen to the lecture on warming the car up (which I was already doing). Well, it happened again today after I drove it a couple of miles to the grocery store (yes it was warm). When I came back out, it wouldn't start. I did eventually get it started, but I called the dealer and really let them have it. I am not going to deal with this on a regular basis. It's not just a quirk, it's a design flaw and a safety issue. It was 19 degrees today. If I had been in a remote area and couldn't get it started, I would have been in some trouble. I don't car if this car is hot, I want something I can count on.

We all need to report this to the NHTSA. I did earlier today and there are already a few other RX8 flooding complaints on there. You can file a report on-line. Maybe if we all do this, MAZDA will be forced to do something about this.

My invoice doesn't have a limiting clause. It flooded again this weekend and I'm taking it in tomorrow, so I guess I'll find out. That's after I give them a piece of my mind regarding this design flaw. I really hate worrying about whether my car is going to start when I need it. Especially when it's 10 degrees outside.

Arthur:
Sorry to hear about your car. Can you say whether you have a standard or automatic transmission? Also, what did you do to get the car started?

The body shop flooded my car and the dealership is saying somebody flipped the spark plugs around, which caused it to flood, blah blah. I don't have the know-how to do that, and I don't see why the body shop would do it. Anyways, they are trying to say they won't cover it under warranty. The body shop has called several dealerships and gets mixed responses of " Yes, it's covered", and "Yes, the first time is covered". Bullshit I say. If it's a one-time deal, body shop had better pay for it. I'm losing the faith. Are there any auto makers that are honest with its customers?

I am operating under the assumption that Mazda has not yet figured out how it is going to service flooded cars. There are three possibilities in my mind as to how this might go:

(1) "basic" warranty coverage - 48 months, or 48,000 miles.
(2) "service adjustment" coverage - 12 months, 12,000 miles.
(3) one-time goodwill coverage - they do what they want whenever they want.

See your warranty for a description of "service adjustment" coverage if you are not familiar with it. It's supposed to be for "adjustments" such as tightening belts, etc.

I put my letter in the mail this afternoon asking them to clarify what their policy will be. I'll let everyone know if I get a response and will post what I find out, if appropriate.

Sorry to hear about your experience, Winning_BlueRX8, but I noticed in reading that the leading and trailing plugs are different. Anyone thinking about trying to deflood their own car needs to proceed with caution. I'd love to see a DIY with pictures posted, if anyone is so inclined.

Originally posted by Arthur
We all need to report this (flooding issue) to the NHTSA.
No, not ALL of us. Just those few who have flooded their car and believe this to be an issue.

just keep your head buried in the sand

It is an issue I must admit even though I have yet to flood the 8. I have started it and moved it 5 feet, revved it to 4000 rpm and shut it down many, many times and not once have I had problems starting it afterwards. Yeah issues arise when others move it. I think that you have to remember that rotary's are unique . . . they have a great upside but also have a downside. You should know this buying one. MrBill's post was refreshing. For those that are unfamiliar w/rotaries more disclosure should be provided by Mazda and dealerships . . . and us owners. Just like this post. Do I wish the 8 was perfect, sure do, am I personally willing to live with its deficiencies as is, I sure am. Cheers.

There is a TSB "parts flash" on the new plugs (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/flash_rf04-04.html) which was issued 1/12/04..., but no discussion at all about why one would use them.

http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/flash_1.jpg

Doing a little research on "hot" spark plugs yields this from BP's Australian web site:

Engines that do only short trips and never fully warm up may build up soot deposits around the insulator on the centre electrode of the spark plug. This may short out the spark and cause misfiring. A longer trip periodically may fix the problem but otherwise fitting hotter spark plugs may be necessary to burn off the soot.

I think those of us that have "flooded" our cars may, instead, have really just "fouled" the plugs.

Originally posted by rieskame
just keep your head buried in the sand
My point is, we can't ALL complain to NHTSA, or Mazda, or anyone about a "possible issue" based on what we read on the internet.

I have never flooded my car (knock on wood), or know anyone personally that has, so I can't complain based on heresay.

I think those who have flooded their car, and believe this to be an issue, please.....complain away. Just don't do it based on what you read that could have happened to someone else.

Originally posted by jonalan
No, not ALL of us. Just those few who have flooded their car and believe this to be an issue.

Of course I meant those of us that this has happened to. But it's not just a few as you can see from the polls on this site and others if you've looked.

In my research on this car, this issue didn't come up and I definitely was "educated" by the dealer.

After the second flood, the dealer replaced all four spark plugs with the hotter ones. So far no floods, but it has needed extra cranking once or twice. No charge, but still a pain to be continually taking it in.

I had a conversation with a customer service supervisor at Mazda North American Operations yesterday and she started giving me the standard answer that this is a "special" car, etc. I told her I didn't want to hear that from her--the time to hear that was when I was buying it. I told her about this website and all the discussion on this issue and she seemed quite surprised that this many people are having this problem and she was going to take a look at the discussions. I did a search and came up with 70 discussion threads regarding the flooding issue on this site alone.

Originally posted by jonalan
My point is, we can't ALL complain to NHTSA, or Mazda, or anyone about a "possible issue" based on what we read on the internet.

We can't? It seems to me we'd be a lot more effective that way

Originally posted by jonalan
I think those who have flooded their car, and believe this to be an issue, please.....complain away. Just don't do it based on what you read that could have happened to someone else.

Rubbish. A car that I bought in ignorance of the issues turns out to have a 15% chance of flooding in the first six month (extracted roughly from polls on this site). I shouldn't complain?

OK. Let's say Boeing has a flaw in their 777's that causes it to go down 1 every 50,000 takeoffs, and the Bush administration is too distracted to take any notice. It's the only plane that goes where I want to go. Just because it hasn't crashed when I fly it doesn't preclude me from screaming bloody hell. I would expect that everybody who has to fly it, lives under the flight path, has loved ones who fly it, would be screaming bloody hell.

Flooding the car can be exceptionally dangerous. Think of the places you are likely to stall: You stall it taking off on a busy intersection and you're stuck in the middle. You stall it waiting for the green light to meter you through the freeway on-ramp at rush hour. You stall out on a railroad track (my favorite). Yes, I think some proactive bitching is warrented.

I wonder if we are all going to get the hotter leading edge plugs or do we have to wait for the plane to go down first. And, oh yeah, will it make a bit of difference?

I've flooded... and complained mightily. But, has anyone ever stalled at an intersection? My flood was after a drive of 30 feet, followed by a shut down. I was towed from my driveway, and I think that's typical from what I've been reading. I am operating under the assumption that once you get to an intersection where you might flood, it'll probably restart after a stall. If anyone has any other experiences besides flooding from home or work, post em. I'd like to hear about it.

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
......I am operating under the assumption that once you get to an intersection where you might flood, it'll probably restart after a stall.

How can you say that? Once I drive 100 feet from my house, I'm in an intersection.

I'm sure some people are in a intersection 30 feet from their houses and some probably have railroad tracks they cross within flooding range.

Fortunately, I've never flooded and hope like hell that it does not happen at a time that I'd be stuck in harms way.

rx8cited

I think everyone's panicing about this flooding deal more than is really neccessary. My philosophy is the more you worry about it and change your behaviour to try and combat it, the more likely you are to experience it. If you're experiencing it then by all means complain about it and try to figure out what the cause is.

However I wish people wouldn't make it sound like you're gonna flood the car the instant you stall or shut it off cold or look at a railway crossing funny. It's not true. I've been purposefully shutting off and stalling cold to try and flood for the last few days without luck so far.

Forum polls are a very far cry from any kind of realistic statistic. I think this is an issue that affects some people due to some (as yet) undetermined factor (could be a defect in their car, could be driving habit, could be environmental) and for the vast majority of everyone else it won't ever be an issue unless you really try hard.

Originally posted by rx8cited
How can you say that? Once I drive 100 feet from my house, I'm in an intersection.
It's only a theory, but it seems to be holding true from the reports I've seen so far. I think this may be because: (1) the AT is more likely to flood than the MT, and the AT is far less likely to stall once its started (i.e., the AT won't stall at an intersection - typically only the MT does that); and (2) if you do get to an intersection, your plan is likely to keep on driving and the rotors have been spinning a bit, so there's not as much excess fuel slopping around in the chambers.

I'm not saying its not possible, just that most of us that have flooded did it to ourselves by shutting the engine down too soon before the car has rolled under its own power very far. In my case, my wife did it by backing the car out of the garage and turning off the ignition. Other people have left their wallets in the house and just instinctively shut their car down to go back to get it. I've heard stories of dealers flooding the car. I'm sure the car floods at car washes and that valets have done it. I'm not saying Mazda shouldn't cover the repair; only that the car has been fairly predictable in its (bad) behavior. Once the car is warm, you can shut it down and start it up at will... that doesn't seem to be a problem. It is possible that the gas in the chamber condenses on the plugs if the car is left to sit cold.

sferrett: try my wife's test... on a cold day, back the car out stone cold, then leave it sit a few hours. I'd be interested in what happens.

Originally posted by sferrett
However I wish people wouldn't make it sound like you're gonna flood the car the instant you stall or shut it off cold or look at a railway crossing funny. It's not true.


Of course it's not true. I know that. If it does happen to you, it will only be once or twice, but it's going to happen exactly the one time when you are distracted over something else important in your life, when you absolutely need it not to happen.


Originally posted by sferrett
I've been purposefully shutting off and stalling cold to try and flood for the last few days without luck so far.


What a trooper. You might never flood it in San Diego, though. It's a good time of year to take your experiment up to Mammoth.

I know it was posted somewhere.. but there are TONS of flood posts..

Anyone with a quick and dirty answer why this car is "susceptible" to floods on a cold engine vs. a warm one.. what's the difference? and why even flood in the first place?

RX-Nut

My dealer told me that it's because this car pushes a lot of fuel when first started and if it isn't given a chance to burn off, it may flood the next time.

My first flood was at home after moving the car out of the garage, but the second time I was at the grocery store and it was about 19 degrees--BTW-the car was fully warmed up when I shut it off and it flooded anyway. When I took it in that time they replaced all four spark plugs.

Again, I say that the more of us who have experienced this who complain the better. The MAZDA North America customer service number is 1-800-222-5500. Ask to speak to a supervisor (the phone rep I spoke to was very uninterested). Also, a complaint to the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration (the organization that initiates recalls) is also a good idea. You can do it on-line, their website is www.nhtsa.gov The more of us who speak out the more likely MAZDA is to look for a real solution.

As I've said in previous posts, if I had been informed of this prior to purchase this would be a different story. However, I have never owned a rotary engine before and this caught me completely off guard. It's more than a mere annoyance. It's a real pain. Every time I want to run out to get the newspaper or deli, which is a 1/2 mile away I have to drive it around or sit in it for a while before I can shut it off. I don't like to have to think about when I can shut my car off--I have too many other things going on. What a pain!!!

Originally posted by Mat
Maybe you misunderstand what flooding is. It's not about starting your car in cold weather (you wouldn't happen to have a gray RX-8 on winter tires with no wheel caps?), but it's about having your friend/wife/yourself moving you car 5m and shutting it down cold and not being to start it up ever again, or accidentally stall the car on a stop or traffic light while it's cold and being stuck with the same problem.

And this can happen with any car, not just the RX8. My wife used to move the Inifiniti and Nissan we had without warming it up, and it would take forever to start the next time.

I have not had any hard starts at all with the RX8, at least nothing the sets it apart from any other car.

Arthur, and everyone else that is paranoid to take the car to the corner store, I have taken the car a few blocks away and shut it down with no flooding problems. Remember to do the simple rev to 4000 or so, hold for a second and shut it down while the revs are up there. I cannot garauntee that it will work but I can say, and many others on this board will admit, that it has worked for them with no problems. Of course, the best thing to do is to drive for a few extra blocks and get the temp up.

Originally posted by iamcanadian
Arthur, and everyone else that is paranoid to take the car to the corner store, I have taken the car a few blocks away and shut it down with no flooding problems. Remember to do the simple rev to 4000 or so, hold for a second and shut it down while the revs are up there. I cannot garauntee that it will work but I can say, and many others on this board will admit, that it has worked for them with no problems. Of course, the best thing to do is to drive for a few extra blocks and get the temp up.


Wouldn't doing this possibly cause more gas to get into the engine since your foot is slill on the gas pedal while you turn it off or revving to 4000, holiding the foot on the gas for one second, then when you shut off you take your foot off the gas ?

Sorry to make you spell this out so specifically but I want to make sure I do this right . . . . also are you doing this everytime you shut the car off or only when it's cold

Originally posted by iamcanadian
Arthur, and everyone else that is paranoid to take the car to the corner store, I have taken the car a few blocks away and shut it down with no flooding problems. Remember to do the simple rev to 4000 or so, hold for a second and shut it down while the revs are up there. I cannot garauntee that it will work but I can say, and many others on this board will admit, that it has worked for them with no problems. Of course, the best thing to do is to drive for a few extra blocks and get the temp up.

This would work if you rev it up, let off the pedal and then shut it down before the revs drop too much. Assuming offcourse that the ecu cuts the fuel out on deceleration until the rpm drops off to a certain level. If you revved it up and shut it off with your foot still on the pedal you probably make it worse.
I still can't believe after so many years of rotary experience, mazda can't get it right. This is more of an ecu programming problem than a problem due to the basic design of the rotary block. There is a better solution than just printing a warning about cold shut downs. All you guys that are pissed off have a right to be.

I've read several posts now that discuss reving and shutting it off at the higher revs. IIRC, the instructions explicitly say let it return to idle.

Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
I've read several posts now that discuss reving and shutting it off at the higher revs. IIRC, the instructions explicitly say let it return to idle.
IIRC?

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
IIRC?

If I remember correctly.

Originally posted by iamcanadian
Arthur, and everyone else that is paranoid to take the car to the corner store, I have taken the car a few blocks away and shut it down with no flooding problems. Remember to do the simple rev to 4000 or so, hold for a second and shut it down while the revs are up there. I cannot garauntee that it will work but I can say, and many others on this board will admit, that it has worked for them with no problems. Of course, the best thing to do is to drive for a few extra blocks and get the temp up.

I used to take it to the corner store all the time and shut it down. Now that's it's flooded twice, I am paranoid about doing it and I will continue to be until there is a real fix to this. Or, I'm trading it in. I don't want a car that I can't count on. I don't want to worry about valet parking, car washes, etc. I'd hate to give it up, but I will if they don't fix this.

Also, reving it up and shutting it off while the revs are up is there is exactly opposite of what the dealer said I should do. The service manager said to be sure that the idle has returned to the lowest level prior to shutting down so that the fuel has a chance to move through.

Well, 900 miles on the vehicle. Moved it from my parking spot about 30 feet so I could wash it... started it back up, after 1hr of washing and moved it back to its parking spot.

Got in it this morning... crank..crank..crank... no fire.

Attempted the de-flooding procedure (held gas to floor, turned vehicle over for 10 sec, stop and wait 10 sec, repeat). Battery now dead, car won't start.

I put the battery on a charger and will try again tonight... if no dice tonight, its going back to the dealer to be 'fixed'.

Totally unacceptable. Add me to the list of people that have flooded and can't start the vehicle.
-- Aaron

Here's a posting from a different forum where the owner of a RX-8 was presented with a bill for $285 from the dealer for fixing the flooding problem due to "driver error".

http://forums.mazdaworld.org/index.php?showtopic=3774&st=0&#entry49539

I put the battery on charge, and mentioned the problem to a friend of mine that works at Mazda-- he was going home for lunch (which happens to be close to my home), and he happens to have the valet key to my RX-8, he stopped by and got it running.

He said he did the same procedure-- hold throttle wide open, turn car over... Took 3 trys, but eventually it cranked over. Blew a bunch of smoke for a few... and seems to be back and operational.

Now, my question is... Has this 'fouled' up my plugs? Or will they 'clean' themselves with normal running?? And how can I tell? If they are a little fouled up now, will I be more prone to flooding?

-- Aaron

Aaron... I think you're ok. Some people have recommended getting the oil changed, but I specifically asked my dealer's service guy (I know I know) and he said that the car didn't need the oil changed. Mine's been running fine since the flood. Of course, my plugs were swapped out and yours were not; still, I would not worry about it unless you get a Check Engine Light.

my gas mileage dropped from 16-17 to barely 15

Originally posted by bernieunger
A car that I bought in ignorance of the issues turns out to have a 15% chance of flooding in the first six month (extracted roughly from polls on this site). I shouldn't complain?

OK. Let's say Boeing has a flaw in their 777's that causes it to go down 1 every 50,000 takeoffs, and the Bush administration is too distracted to take any notice......
Exactly! In this hypothetical scenario, you are assuming there is a flaw in the 777 based on what you've read from total strangers on an internet forum; as opposed to a press release from "Boeing", or the Bush administration, or whomever.

There MAY be a flooding issue with this car, but I don't know that because I've not experienced it, nor known anyone personally who has. Nor has there been anything released from Mazda pertaining to this.

Also, your "15% chance of flooding" comment is based on an unscientific, unreliable source. I'll bet there was a much, MUCH better chance of finding weapons of mass destruction in Iraq - and look where that's gotten us. :D

My Thanksgiving flooding episode involved two dealer visits: the one in Ypsilanti who got it started, and the one at home (530-plus miles later) who changed the plugs. The towing in Michigan and the two dealer visits were both done under warranty with no weasal words on the invoice ... so maybe Mazda is trying to tighten up a bit after a bean counter has reviewed the warranty claims. The plug change suggests that effects of the fouling could persist even after extended high speed driving, but I didn't ask to see the old plugs or why they were changed.

As I suggested in another thread, I don't EXPECT to stall my car, especially when it's cold and revving high, but even after driving sticks for 33 years I feel better when the temp. needle starts to climb. And after it has refused to start once, you do feel some anxiety every time you turn the key.

Re shutdown, I rev it to about 4500, take my foot off the gas, and turn off the ignition at about 3000. Who knows whether this actually helps?

Re parking valets, the scenario I worry about is the lot where you leave it a day or more ("VIP" parking at Dulles) and they have to shuffle the cars if they haven't parked them in the right order. Fortunately, Dulles has a new garage ....

Damnit... I knew I shouldn't have bought a car that Bill Gate's operating system was based on! :-) Who would have known the car GPF's every couple of dozens of starts.

(Okay, you might need to be a geek to get that)

-- Aaron

And a slightly older geek too. When's the last time anyone saw a GPF. Of course a BSOD would be more appropriate in this case.

Three weeks and counting...

Greetings everyone. It's been awhile since I posted. I've been back from Qatar for over 3 months now, been enjoying my car, and haven't had a problem until.....

Last night, I pulled my car out of the garage (to do some work in the garage) and it stalled on me. :confused: It's been pretty nippy here in Florida at night, so I just thought, "it's just a little cold, I try to start it, and let it idle a little before I back it up". Well it didn't start. I tried several times, and couldn't get it to turn over. Started to smell like it flooded, so I just left it alone, put it in neutral and pushed it back into the garage for the night. No big deal, I thought for now, since I had two other cars at my disposal if I needed to go anyplace. Also didn't want to sweat over it since I knew I could get it towed in the morning if it didn't start, since I knew it was under warranty...until I searched for "flooding" and found this thread.

Anyway, I tried again this morning, using the procedures in the manual concerning flooding and it still didn't start. :mad: Ok. Last straw, I'll let it sit for another half hour and if it don't start this time, then time to call for a tow. Of course, I said a little prayer, since God really owns the car anyway. :)

After the half hour, I floored the accelerator and let it crank for about 10 seconds. It sputtered and spit, and FINALLY it turned over. Well, I ain't going to let this baby die so easily. Let it idle for 10 minutes and took it out for a "exhaust cleaning". :) Drove around the back roads of Florida for about 20 minutes, getting it up to about 115 a few times :D , and everything seemed fine. Ran like a top.

Bottom line. I agree with many hear on this thread. This shouldn't be an issue for a 2004 model sports car. None-the-less, I will still enjoy my car, and HOPE this never happens again, and if so, then Mazda will cover it's repair under the warranty.

I'll keep you guys posted.

It is covered. You can rest easy :)

Originally posted by amartin
I put the battery on charge, and mentioned the problem to a friend of mine that works at Mazda-- he was going home for lunch (which happens to be close to my home), and he happens to have the valet key to my RX-8, he stopped by and got it running.

He said he did the same procedure-- hold throttle wide open, turn car over... Took 3 trys, but eventually it cranked over. Blew a bunch of smoke for a few... and seems to be back and operational.

Now, my question is... Has this 'fouled' up my plugs? Or will they 'clean' themselves with normal running?? And how can I tell? If they are a little fouled up now, will I be more prone to flooding?

-- Aaron

Mine flooded the first time under almost the exact same circumstances--even at approximately the same miles (mine was 860). Anyway, the dealer changed the oil and cleaned the plugs, but it flooded again a week later even after I had warmed it up before everytime before shutting down. The dealer put hotter plugs in, and so far no more issues, but I still worry about the possibility of a next time. All was covered under the warranty.

Originally posted by Arthur
All was covered under the warranty.
Does your invoice indicate a warranty repair?

mine wasnt covered

I think gettig stranded is more of a concern tha anything...what if I goto a resturaunt (okay, FINE, BAR!!) and..it closes a 2am.. I go out in the freezing weather..bar closed..patrons gone...forgot my cell phone at home... start to pull out, and stall the vehicle.. go to start it, and boom. Flooded.

Go through the de-flood procedure (which, BTW, only seems to work if you have a LOT of current in the battery available), and drain the battery. I'm SCRWED.

This is a real concern, and its pretty serious, because, as mentioned, you could 'stall' and not be able to restart anywhere from a busy intersection/stoplight to a train crossing... or worse, on a mountain and freeze to death.

The warranty and $ issues aside, its a big problem. I've NEVER-EVER had a car that basically wouldn't start because of a fuel issue (unless it was out of fuel, or dead fuel pump).

...its a pretty major concern of mine, now, that I've done it at 900 miles. Every 1k miles and I'm hosed? Thats kinda silly.

I've been driving for almost 20 years now. I've never-EVER had a car do this. I mean... go intentioally flood any other car, push the throttle to the floor and turn it over, it'll start. But this car? Its a 20/80 chance. If that.

The seriousness of this issue is massive, and potentially a huge lawsuit to Mazda if someone dies from it..

As I've mentioned before, everyone in the U.S. who has this problem occur to them should be sure to file a complaint of a potential safety defect with NHTSA (at http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/).

If there are enough complaints, NHTSA will start an investigation and perhaps demand a recall. Since they've forced recalls for inaccurate gas gauges being a safety hazard, I would imagine a car that stalls and cannot be restarted certainly qualifies...

Originally posted by MEGAREDS
Does your invoice indicate a warranty repair?

I'm almost positive it does, but I'll check to be sure and get back to you.

Originally posted by amartin
The seriousness of this issue is massive, and potentially a huge lawsuit to Mazda if someone dies from it..
LOL :D Sorry amartin, just the thought of someone dying from flooding their car struck me funny!