I researched the no speed limit issue in Montana a little further, and there was a time when there were no day time speed limits.

There is also a study that shows that it was a lot safer without the speed limits then with speed limits. The fatal rate doubled after they implemented speed limits again.

We conclude: it is safer to have no speed limits !

Germany has the lowest accident rate (and fatality rate) in the world, and we do not have a speed limit.

Here is the link to the facts (data) of accidents/fatality rates in Montana with speed limits and without (for those who dont belive me):

http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm

So I suggest you write an email to your governour to take a look at these facts and take action

Originally posted by qberror
I researched the no speed limit issue in Montana a little further, and there was a time when there were no day time speed limits.

There is also a study that shows that it was a lot safer without the speed limits then with speed limits. The fatal rate doubled after they implemented speed limits again.

We conclude: it is safer to have no speed limits !

Germany has the lowest accident rate (and fatality rate) in the world, and we do not have a speed limit.

Here is the link to the facts (data) of accidents/fatality rates in Montana with speed limits and without (for those who dont belive me):

http://www.hwysafety.com/hwy_montana_2001.htm

So I suggest you write an email to your governour to take a look at these facts and take action


I think that one can use the Montana stats as an argument that we shouldn't have speed limits, but I don't think one can compare Germany's "no speed limit" laws to the United States. The liscense requirements are just so much more strict there. THe drivers, in Germany, are much better, in general than the drivers in the U.S. In my opinion, there are just too many drivers in the U.S. that are just clueless behind the wheel. With no speed limits, I would be going 100 down the freeway, and with some jackass entering the Freeway at 50MPH, this would be dangerous. The thing is, this happens all the time.


Also, do you really think that people who are 16 or 17 years old could be responsible with no speed limits. I went at least 90 MPH on the way to high school every day when I was younger. The only thing stopping me from going faster was the speed limit. Also, keep in mind that youi must be 18 years old in Germany to drive.


Also, keep in mind that there is not that much traffic in Montana, compared to most others states. Yes, no speed limits might work there, but would this be the best idea for more populated roads?


By the way, I voted for no speed limits, but there are concerns that must be discussed when considering such a law/rule as no speed limits.

The reason Germany is much safer to drive is the regulations they have. First off they have to be 18 before than can get their license. It is also no easy task. It is an extensive process that costs a fair amount of money.

There is also a much greater emphasis on lane discipline. If you are a slower car than you stay to the right and they NEVER pass on the right. Passing on the right gets you in deep shit.

They also have a different driving mentality. They aren't distracted drivers like we are. They don't talk on cell phones or eat and drink in their car. That’s why it is only recently that German cars started coming with cup holders.

If all speed limits were all of a sudden removed than it would be a blood bath. And as much as I would like to be able to drive as fast as I want, I hope we never have a speed limit-less highway system. Americans just don't have the right driving mentality for it to work.


*Edit*
Having a highway in Montana with no speed limits is OK. There are so few drivers that it isn't nearly as dangerous and I doubt any one goes under 90 on a Montana highway.

Originally posted by cueball
The reason Germany is much safer to drive is the regulations they have. First off they have to be 18 before than can get their license. It is also no easy task. It is an extensive process that costs a fair amount of money.

There is also a much greater emphasis on lane discipline. If you are a slower car than you stay to the right and they NEVER pass on the right. Passing on the right gets you in deep shit.

They also have a different driving mentality. They aren't distracted drivers like we are. They don't talk on cell phones or eat and drink in their car. That’s why it is only recently that German cars started coming with cup holders.

If all speed limits were all of a sudden removed than it would be a blood bath. And as much as I would like to be able to drive as fast as I want, I hope we never have a speed limit-less highway system. Americans just don't have the right driving mentality for it to work.


*Edit*
Having a highway in Montana with no speed limits is OK. There are so few drivers that it isn't nearly as dangerous and I doubt any one goes under 90 on a Montana highway.


Good points, especially about lane discipline. I am sick of people holding everyone up on the freeway going under the speed limit in the left lane, also known in Germany as the "passing lane". Until people learn how to drive correctly in the U.S., the roadways will never get any safer.

Roads in the U.S. are not unsafe due to "speed" or going too fast. THey are unsafe due to bad drivers, plain and simple. It all starts with driver's education, which, in my opinion, is terrible in the U.S.

I'd like to venture a guess to why traffic accidents have increased since the implementation of speed limit.

When there was no speed limit one would assume that most people were traveling at a high, but relatively uniform rate of travel, with the exception of a few. With the implementation of a speed limit, a large amount of people slowed down considerably, but there was still a fairly large amount of people traveling at high rates of speed. This discrepancy in the speeds may have contributed to the accident rate.
When two vehicles are traveling at near the same rate the distance between them stays the same, but when one is traveling relatively slow and the other at a high rate of speed the distance between the two closing extremely rapidly, causing accidents.
Does this make sense to anyone else?

There are FAR too many idiots on the roads to go to a no speed limit system, or even to raise the limit to, say, 100mph. On top of that, American highways are too poorly built and maintained. The asphalt surfacing on the Autobahn is more than twice as thick as the surfacing on American freeways. Greater thickness prevents cracking and pot holes, which is obviously crucial for high speed driving. Also, when cracks do form, they are fixed immediately.

Germany spends a hell of a lot more money on the Autobahn on a per-mile basis than the US does on the Interstate. They can afford to do that because of far greater tax rates. Fuel, for example, is taxed at almost 100%. In other words, a gallon of gas in Germany may cost $2 before taxes (for example), but gets taxed another $2, so it costs a total of $4 (note, these numbers are NOT exact). Licenses can cost as much as $1200. Traffic violation fees are adjusted for income, so the more money you make, the more you pay for a ticket. All that tax money goes to building and maintaining what is one of the most expensive road networks in the world.

There is no way in Hell that Americans would agree to pay THAT much to drive on the interstate. And there is no way in Hell to make the Interstate high-speed safe on the cheap.

Originally posted by rotarymagic

Roads in the U.S. are not unsafe due to "speed" or going too fast. THey are unsafe due to bad drivers, plain and simple. It all starts with driver's education, which, in my opinion, is terrible in the U.S.
Exactly.
That is why I voted for have a set speed limit. American driver just aren't capable of handling an extremely high rate of travel.

I am not saying that all drivers are bad. In fact, most people on this board are probably quite capable of handling the speed. I just don't want to be on the road with the other 90% of the people who can't.


It's like driving in the snow. I'm not too worried about my own ability to drive in the white stuff, it's everyone else that worries me.

I did love driving through Montana when I was in college :). We would caravan as fast as the slowest car for our trip and make it through the state in no time.... I just wish I had an RX8 back in the early 90's.

FYI, Montana hi-ways are straight as an arrow for hundreds of miles with very few people on them, there is no reason not to go as fast as humanly possible.

Originally posted by cueball
I'd like to venture a guess to why traffic accidents have increased since the implementation of speed limit.

When there was no speed limit one would assume that most people were traveling at a high, but relatively uniform rate of travel, with the exception of a few. With the implementation of a speed limit, a large amount of people slowed down considerably, but there was still a fairly large amount of people traveling at high rates of speed. This discrepancy in the speeds may have contributed to the accident rate.
When two vehicles are traveling at near the same rate the distance between them stays the same, but when one is traveling relatively slow and the other at a high rate of speed the distance between the two closing extremely rapidly, causing accidents.
Does this make sense to anyone else?


Yes...

Also, I have always said that going too slow is just as dangerous as going too fast.

This "no speed limit" thing in Montana (and Germany for that matter), was (is) that just on highways? Or, were there no speed limits even on the side roads, subdivisions, etc.?

Originally posted by rotarymagic
Roads in the U.S. are not unsafe due to "speed" or going too fast. THey are unsafe due to bad drivers, plain and simple. It all starts with driver's education, which, in my opinion, is terrible in the U.S.
I agree. I also believe that everyone should be required to retake a driver's test every xx years.

Originally posted by jonalan
I agree. I also believe that everyone should be required to retake a driver's test every xx years.

Isn't that a requirement in the states? As the drivers license is only valid for 6 years (?). It's my first US license, so I'm not sure if you have to retake the roadtest but that would be the way to go.

I hated driving in germany and having the old ppl drive in front of me, not getting their own ass moved quick enough. Especially old people in germany should be required to retake a test.

I have to agree, the roads in the US are too shitty to allow speeds as they are allowed in germany. From where I come from in Germany, they just build a new Autobahn, spanning about 20 miles and costs are estimated to be in the 2 figure millions, I can't really recall how much it was but german roads are expensive to deliver quality.

As a personal matter I should care less if the US is going to abandon speed limits, ONLY for the Autobahn, I'll be moving back to germany in a couple of years, it's just way too much fun to be giving that up :)

But yea, gas is twice as expensive as it is in the states, I'm not sure if I can still afford to drive an 8 in germany then, it would probably kill me :(

Additionally they have car taxation, I believe it was about 70 bucks for each liter your engine has.

And why it is safer? Because of laws that disallow you to use a cellphone while driving, of laws (as mentioned) that disallow you to pass on the right. And yes, because you have to attend driving school to get your license, it's very strict and tough to get a license over there but in my opinion, the best solution. Also, people who do a license with automatic aren't allowed to drive manual afterwards (not without retaking the license test).

Originally posted by Schneegz
. Traffic violation fees are adjusted for income, so the more money you make, the more you pay for a ticket.

OMG, I never knew this. I get about 1 ticket every 1.5 years, to me it's well worth the cost (original ticket about $80, after attorney fees $60, ticket is changed to non-moving violation and fee is increased to $130 for total of $190). At my income level $190 every 1.5 years is well worth it to always speed. Last ticket was $0!!! It pays to know the right people. Anyway back to the point I quoted, having fixed fees is disparate to poor people. While I can easily afford to speed, there are many that can't. The same thing about parking tickets. For example, I'm sure Bill Gates underlings work out all the details in advance, but if Bill was in the situation of choosing to drive around looking for a legal parking spot or parking illegal, what choice would it be. Germany's system is much fairer then the US's.

Originally posted by cueball
I'd like to venture a guess to why traffic accidents have increased since the implementation of speed limit.

When there was no speed limit one would assume that most people were traveling at a high, but relatively uniform rate of travel, with the exception of a few. With the implementation of a speed limit, a large amount of people slowed down considerably, but there was still a fairly large amount of people traveling at high rates of speed. This discrepancy in the speeds may have contributed to the accident rate.
When two vehicles are traveling at near the same rate the distance between them stays the same, but when one is traveling relatively slow and the other at a high rate of speed the distance between the two closing extremely rapidly, causing accidents.
Does this make sense to anyone else?

Or it might have been that with having no speed limit people used the passing lane for its intended use--pass and move back right as soon as possible. I have no doubts that speed can contribute to fatality rates, but so can drivers failing to follow the "slower traffic to the right rule", and IMHO there's more accidents caused by the latter. I have fantisized for 25 years of being a cop for a day and giving tickets to the people that don't fallow tha latter.

Originally posted by jonalan
This "no speed limit" thing in Montana (and Germany for that matter), was (is) that just on highways? Or, were there no speed limits even on the side roads, subdivisions, etc.?

In Germany it is only on the Autobahn and only on certain sections not all. There are less "no speed limit" zones every year. As a recall the limit on the other portions is usally 130kmh (about 80mph). One thing to keep in mind is that the Autobahns are designed and built with high speeds in mind. The turns are more gradual and the roads are graded for speed as well.

And as others have said the left lane is for PASSING which means if you are driving slower than the guy behind you move to the right and get the "f" out of the way. Traveling 140mph + in my Iroc I was "flashed" and then passed by a few 7 series, Benzes and Ferraris to name a few. Of course I did my share of flashing as well....Citroens, Trebbies etc. :-)

One last thing, when there is a crash on the Autobahn it is a CRASH like you have never seen. I have been stuck in a stau (jam) for over 6 hours when there was a 150 car pile up.

I agree certain things would have to be modified in the US to make a NO SPEED LIMIT highway possible. Improvements are always good and also help the economy so why not ?

Here are a few ponits:

1. legal driving age has to go up to 18 years, special permits for 16 year olds who live in rural areas and don't have the option to use public traffic.

2. roads have to be improved: fix all holes and bumps, grade the curves, etc. --- finance it by raising the price per gallon by 10 cents (should be enough since there are more then 250 million people living in the US).

3. new rules: left lane ONLY for passing, passing on the right illegal, cell phone use only with free-hand modus allowed

4. NO SPEED only in areas where it is safe, in populated areas like big citys there has to be a speed limit of course (65-85 mph). Better would be to use a computer based system like we have in Germany that adjusts the speed limit according to traffic (few traffic = NO speed limit; a lot of traffic = 65 mph speed limit or even lower, to prevent jams).

5. Cars have to be controlled every 2 years to make sure they got the right tires (so they dont blow up when u drive that fast) and the brakes work, the lights etc.

If those steps were implemented a safe NO Speed highway system would be possible and a lot safer then what you have in the US today.

By the way: contrary to what a lot of people say it is not true that most highways in germany have a speed limit. I travell all the time from Hannover to Frankfurt, from Nuernberg to Munich, Cologne to Berlin .... etc. all over Germany and most of it is without a speed limit or a computer controlled speed limit as described above.

You have got to be kidding me. In favor of no speed limits? I'm breaking nto a cold sweat with visions of oblivious soccer moms in their Festiva-crushers barreling through downtown intersections at 80MPH. Save lives? I don't think so. Now if this law applied only to a certain RX-8 owner, I'd have no problem with it :D

Another item to add to the list would be; specialcertification for high speed drivers. Starting with requiring an SCCA license, along with paying say, a triple fee for a state-issued-SCCA-endorsed license. I'd be more than happy to pay a higher fee... of course, I have to get the other license first:)

Originally posted by rotarymagic
I think that one can use the Montana stats as an argument that we shouldn't have speed limits.


Yes, but there is less than a million people in Montana which would make it safer regardless of speed.

I voted for no speed limits, back during the gas crunch of the 70's when they rationed gas in the USA (I was about 5 or 6), they reduced the limits to 55 mph, now they have finally raised them to 70 in most rural spots but it's still not as fast as the original speed limits of about 75 mph. I agree, it's too easy to get a license here in the USA, and people don't know how to pass and what lane to drive in on the interstate, but, they could start will one road, I prefer I-40 it goes east and west practically throughout the whole southern part of the US, then move on from there. If you think people can't drive now, wait till we get sky cars. :)

qberror,

I was about to call 'BS' on your whole premise for this thread, but then I saw that TJRX8 did it already:

Originally posted by TJRX8
In Germany it is only on the Autobahn and only on certain sections not all. There are less "no speed limit" zones every year. As a recall the limit on the other portions is usally 130kmh (about 80mph). One thing to keep in mind is that the Autobahns are designed and built with high speeds in mind. The turns are more gradual and the roads are graded for speed as well.

To re-iterate: There are speed limits on every road in Germany except certain sections of the Autobahn highways - and as TJRX8 noted, those unrestricted sections are getting decreased every year. There are far more restricted sections of the Autobahn now (ie sections with speed limits) than there are unrestricted. Your claim that German roads have no speed limits is complete BS.

You aren't really from Germany, are you.

Regards,
Gordon

One thing I wanted to add was that while I was in Germany we had to have our cars inspected every year. It was a very intense and thorough inspection. They would even poke the underside of your car with a screwdriver to see if it was rusted. They also did a brake test on a machine similiar to a dyno except it measured breaking performance. The headlight angle and a bunch of other things were tested as well.

On the contrary in Florida there are no inspections at all. We did have a smog inspection but even that has been done away with. I would hate to see some of the POS cars around here be allowed to drive without a speed limit.

Gord96BRG,

first learn how to read and then comment. ok ?

I do about 40.000 km Autobahn driving every year in Germany , so I am a little bit more competent on this topic then you are !

Originally posted by qberror
Gord96BRG,

first learn how to read and then comment. ok ?

I do about 40.000 km Autobahn driving every year in Germany , so I am a little bit more competent on this topic then you are !

Oh, I read just fine, thank you. I can also detect BS very well. For example - at the top of the thread, you claim Germany has the lowest accident rate (and fatality rate) in the world, and we do not have a speed limit. - meaning that Germany does not have a speed limit. That means, by any literal interpretation, that Germany has no speed limits on any roads.

We don't even need to interpret what you meant, because in this
141 mph thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17497), you stated [QUOTE]Originally posted by qberror
I am going over 150 mph all the time without any problems. No speed limits in Germany. It's a free country ;) Not very hard to misinterpret that statement, is it?

as said many times before, roads are too crowded and full of poorly trained, practiced, and innatentive drivers to not have any speed limits... most people need to be told how fast to go.

of course, this is a very difficult thing to do, as idiots (whom most people are) would need serious time to adjust to a higher-then-usual speed of travel (to get the stopping distances correct, spacing on the freeway, and whatnot).

i'm in favour of speed limits, just ones which are adjusted upward to keep in pace with the safety of today's cars, and the demands placed on our traffic infrastructure.

no speed limit saves lives?

right and smoking ciggies cures lung cancer.

And never ever wear your seatbelt either because it can trap you in a burning vehicle...

RotaryStalker

I dont think anyone is a proponent of the idea of opening all roads in the US to no speed limits.

Montana is a perfect example of a hi-way system that has no needs for speed limits.

How many times have you been on a road trip thinking "Why am i being forced to drive at 65 MPH here?"... I can think of half a dozen strips of highway in several different states where a speed limit really isnt needed, ever... these are rare exceptions to the rule however.

Gord96BRG

once again, learn how to read first and then reply!

1. I never said there are no speed limits everywhere. The title of this thread/poll says "no speed limits on highways" ! It does not say no speed limits in citys or elsewhere.

You obviously have never driven a car before otherwise you would know it is impossible to go 150 mph through a city.

2. Like I said it is true that not all sections of the Autobahn are without a speed limit. We are using computer controlled signs that adjust the speed limit according to traffic.

3. Go shoot a bear or something

Originally posted by RX-GR8
no speed limit saves lives?

right and smoking ciggies cures lung cancer.

The facts proof it:

1. Germany has no speed limit on a lot of sections of the autobahn and we have the lowest accident rate in the world (autobahn only)

2. during the period of no speed limit on Montana highways the accident rate was at it lowest rate ever and double after a speed limit was implementet again.

So the data proofs: NO speed limit saves lifes.

Also the data proofs: smoking ciggies increases your chance of getting lung cancer

We are just talking about FACTS here. But I agree with you that some things would have to change before a no speed limit could be implementet in most states (see my list in a previous post).

So if you want to live long: drive fast and don't smoke ;)

Originally posted by qberror
Gord96BRG

once again, learn how to read first and then reply!

It's becoming pretty evident that I read just fine, and you're making a joke of yourself trying to defend nonsense claims.

1. I never said there are no speed limits everywhere. The title of this thread/poll says "no speed limits on highways" ! It does not say no speed limits in citys or elsewhere.

No, you just said "Germany has no speed limits". You didn't qualify that by stating "on highways", or "on most sections of the Autobahn". You just said "no speed limits". See? I read just fine. You just don't write very well to express what you mean!

Speaking of reading again - go check the title of this thread yourself. It says "NO speed limit saves lifes!" - no mention of "on highways" anywhere. If you mean the poll question (which is different than the title of the thread), it asks for people's opinions of speed limits on highways - it says nothing of the state of speed limits in Germany, which is your assertion that I challenged. There are speed limits in Germany - you repeatedly claimed there were none. Can I make it any more simpler for you to understand? You were wrong - if that wasn't what you meant (as you now claim), then instead of insisting that I can't read, maybe you could just say "Sorry, that wasn't what I meant".

You obviously have never driven a car before otherwise you would know it is impossible to go 150 mph through a city. Nobody ever claimed anything about going 150 mph through cities anywhere in this thread - so what are you talking about? Obviously it is incredibly dangerous - but I wasn't the one that insisted that Germany had no speed limits, was I? Your attempt at sarcasm is pretty lame, you know. Give it up.

2. Like I said it is true that not all sections of the Autobahn are without a speed limit. We are using computer controlled signs that adjust the speed limit according to traffic. Hmm, whatta ya know - speed limits in Germany. NOT what you said before! :D

3. Go shoot a bear or something OOh, you're so witty!

FWIW, your basic premise (that there are no speed limits on German Autobahns and coincidentally that there are lower death rates on German Autobahns) is now invalid by your own admission that there are indeed speed limits on certain sections of the Autobahns where traffic warrants it.

Regards,
Gordon

Guys, watch it with the personal attacks. qberror, are you going from forum to forum as a no-speed limit proponent? I can't find anything about the 8 in any of your other posts. If you're just trying to further your cause, you picked a very weird way to go about it.

Interesting poll. Given the choices, I had to go with having speed limits. But there should be a fourth choice, that I would have chosen: Establish valid and reasonable speed limits. If this were done, the speed limit on many stretches of interstate and other main highways would be raised, IMO.

There are traffic and highway engineering methods to determine the optimum speed limit on a given roadway. By and large, US speed limits are not determined this way, but are based on various, less-than-totally-relevant factors. One key factor is raising revenue. Safety is not really the foremost factor in setting many speed limits.

Originally posted by qberror
I agree certain things would have to be modified in the US to make a NO SPEED LIMIT highway possible. Improvements are always good and also help the economy so why not ?

Here are a few ponits:

1. legal driving age has to go up to 18 years, special permits for 16 year olds who live in rural areas and don't have the option to use public traffic.

2. roads have to be improved: fix all holes and bumps, grade the curves, etc. --- finance it by raising the price per gallon by 10 cents (should be enough since there are more then 250 million people living in the US).

3. new rules: left lane ONLY for passing, passing on the right illegal, cell phone use only with free-hand modus allowed

4. NO SPEED only in areas where it is safe, in populated areas like big citys there has to be a speed limit of course (65-85 mph). Better would be to use a computer based system like we have in Germany that adjusts the speed limit according to traffic (few traffic = NO speed limit; a lot of traffic = 65 mph speed limit or even lower, to prevent jams).

5. Cars have to be controlled every 2 years to make sure they got the right tires (so they dont blow up when u drive that fast) and the brakes work, the lights etc.

If those steps were implemented a safe NO Speed highway system would be possible and a lot safer then what you have in the US today.

These are all good ideas, and go a long way to making no-speed-limit interstates possible. I would add that people should not be allowed to drive with ANYTHING in their hands other than the steering wheel. No espresso, no map, nothing. Need a drink? Pull over. Need to eat? Pull over. Need to look at a map? Pull over.

I would also add better driver training and periodic retesting. Maybe every four years or so.

I have one problem with this idea. A $0.10/gal increase in the price of gas will NOT cover the cost of road maintenance, the electronic road control system, vehicle inspection and testing of drivers. It won't come even close. We'd need at least a $1/gal increase to accomplish all of that, and Americans simply won't go for it.

Originally posted by Elara
Guys, watch it with the personal attacks. qberror, are you going from forum to forum as a no-speed limit proponent? I can't find anything about the 8 in any of your other posts. If you're just trying to further your cause, you picked a very weird way to go about it.

You are right. I will just ignore him from now on. This is not Kindergarten ;)

I am not going from forum to forum as a no speed limit proponent! I used to drive the first version of the RX-7 and am a big fan of the rotary engine concept. My next car will be an RX-8 or a new RX-7 if they will make one (I sure hope so, and hopefully with night eyes again!!!). I just read the threads of people driving out their RX-8's and I came up with the idea to make a poll to see what the general opinion is on speed limits (in the US). Since we don't have speed limits on a lot of sections of the autobahn we can LEGALLY drive to the "limits", which is a lot of fun and I would'nt want to miss it, especially if I would own an RX-8 !! It is an insult to drive such a beautiful sports car only at 75 mph ;)

Thanks to all who participated in this poll. Looks like more people favour a NO SPEED Limit highway then I anticipated. Way to go ;)

There's a shocker.

RotaryStalker