It's true that it is hard to get a lot of boost out of an engine with a high CR because it will get really really hot and be very prone to detonation. But you can add boost to any engine. With the high compression ratio that means you wont loose as much of the quick response and bottom end. We will just have to see how strong the renisis really is once these kits start coming out.

Originally posted by RotorMotor
That's completely untrue....

If Mazda wanted to make another Turbocharged rotary, they would have just stuck to the last generation RX-7 twin turbo 13B or improved on it, instead of redesigning the whole motor to make the same amount of power naturally aspirated. Mazda didn’t want to go thru the same problems with the RX-8 that they had to with the FD. The rotary engine on its own already makes too much heat, and the overly complicated sequential twin turbo system wasn’t helping with that. FD's were notorious for overheating due to so much excess heat from the engine and turbos that it taxed out the inefficient cooling system that it had. Trust me, Mazda knew turbo charging the RX-8 would cause reliability issues, so they decided to keep it simple. Plus if the RX-8 was meant to be turbocharged it would have come with one, or at least have a lower compression and a different layout to play with the idea. Does this mean I won't or anybody else won't try to turbo charge it anyways? Or that Mazda won't ever make a Turbo RX-8? Course not, there’s always hope for Mazda to do something right :) . I had an FD and would love to see a turbo in this car, and I’m sure Mazda would want to do it as well, if they could do it right. But this motor wasn’t designed with forced induction in mind because of reliability issues.

Originally posted by Turborex
It's true that it is hard to get a lot of boost out of an engine with a high CR because it will get really really hot and be very prone to detonation. But you can add boost to any engine. With the high compression ratio that means you wont loose as much of the quick response and bottom end. We will just have to see how strong the renisis really is once these kits start coming out.

II never said you can't supercharge or turbocharge a car, since that would just be plain ignorant :eek: . I just wanted him to know, that not all cars are built for it, and that without the proper knowledge it will probably hurt the car more then do good. Just like how everyone loves to thinks all you have to do to make a car go fast now, is to use NOS :) .

chrashunit
your car is sick
I've seen it in cali car shows

I can't completely agree that if Mazda intended for the car to be turbocharged it would either have one or have a lower compression ratio. Lets go back to late 1985. The new RX-7 was coming out ('86 2nd gen). For '86 it was only naturally aspirated. It had a 6 port engine with a 9.4:1 compression ratio. In '87 the T-II became available. It had 8.5:1 compression and a 4 port engine. How can anyone say that the RX-8 would have lower compression in anticipation? It is far more logical that they would install a new engine with different compression. Back in '87 with way low horsepower and a much lower compression ratio they were worried about detonation on the turbo models. They won't just turbo the engine in it's current form. They would make changes. We have 2 different engine styles now and this was only around a power level. Many speculated that it would have just been detuned but it wasn't. My guess would be a lower compression 4 port Renesis if they do it. Maybe they will add forced induction and maybe they won't. It would be very logical to assume it will be a slightly different engine though.

Originally posted by rotarygod
They won't just turbo the engine in it's current form. They would make changes. My guess would be a lower compression 4 port Renesis if they do it.

how come so many people aren't even listening when it's said "the 6 port motor isn't the one to turbo"??

if you're dying to turbo something, what you need is a Euro or Jap spec base model (the low power 4 port with the 5 speed tranny), take it apart for porting, rotor mass reduction, and grinding the recess (reducing the compression ratio). then my boost-hungry friends, you'd be set.

^^ the right way to get it done ^^

And i'll be right there with my cheque book when they do!

Hopefully someone over this side of the pond will take on board your comments Wakeech and unleash my 'low power'!!!!

I think people just want a fairly reliable, and reasonably cheap way to make power with their 8. It would not be cheap by any means to import an entire drivetrain from japan, have motor work done and then have the whole thing installed. I agree with you though, that this may be the only way to successfully turbo the 8. It looks like 8 owners stateside are going to have to deal with 13's at best on the renisis. Unless of course these turbo kits that are being developed are as successful as the manufacturers hope, someone may see the 12's before the engine blows.

Read the ROAD & TRACK GUIDE TO THE MAZDA RX8. They asked Noboru Katabuchi, RX-8 program manager a series of questions.

Here is a quote from the interview:
Question:
"Because the RX-8's rotary engine is naturally aspirated, did you have concerns about the lack of low- and mid-range torque?"

Noboru Katabuchi's Answer:
"Not really. Of course, if you compare the RX-8's Renesis to the twin-turbo 13B power-plant of the RX-7, low- and mid-range torque is down. However, we didn't want to give the RX-8 a pure sports-car, head-snapping feel. We wanted to give it some smoothness and linearity. So when you step on the throttle, you're not violently jerked around in the cabin, but accelerate in a smooth, pleasant way. And as with the suspension, those who want more of that head-snapping power will be able to customize the car in their own way, weather that be in the form of a turbocharger or supercharger kit."

Looking back, it took 18 months after the new 86 body-style RX-7 change before mazda came out with its 87.5 model year turbo. Looking at the guage placement in the RX-8 makes me think a turbo 8 is in the works. But we probaly will not see it untill half-way thru the 05 model year, and only if the 8 does well this year.

Someone on Miata power list just mentioned that the 2005 RX-8 will have a supercharger available that will retrofit on 2004 models with full factory warranty.
Any truth to this?

Vince

Vince -- you better ask him to post all of his raw data on this supposed supercharger ;)

I call BS...

i talked to the guys at the two local Mazda dealerships one being a Mazdaspeed dealer and the sad thing is I knew more about the car than they do...

They showed some brocures that were meant only for Mazda employees and they really didn't state that much about anything in particular...according to the sales and parts personel there are no plans of a SC or TC for the U.S. RX-8 in the next year. There is a bunch of talk but no immediate plans...

Plus going over the numbers...compression of 11:1 and any kind of forced induction just don't go together well without blowing something up...but i'll save my pessimism till after all the fellas in this forum who are in the middle of R&D on a aftermarket have some hard evidence...

I just don't think $:increase in performance are going to be worth it....JMTC..(chaching)

Rikki,

That's very disconcerting to know your transmission failed...how much extra power could you possibly have been running? I think I remember in another thread that you were at 173whp and then as in your sig, 186whp at the most...you think it's a fluke, or is it that weak?

I'll ask for sources. I remember someone here said reliable sources said no.

Vince

I suggest that was a defective transmission, because there are plenty of folks putting down 250+ at the wheels to this transmission in the Miata application. I am only running about 200 at the wheels in my supercharged Miata but the transmission has been bullet proof for years of hard track days. In another Miata with a big Aerodyne turbo we did 265 rear wheel hp and the trans held without complaint.....well, at least until my little brother put that car into the wall at 80mph. :eek:

I have been told that this motor was built for boost. I have a hard time imagining a bolt on supercharger kit from the factory but I certainly think it can be done. At SEMA last week I talked to one company not ready to go public on their own RX8 supercharger setup...but they are working on one. I also talked with the Mazda guy in charge of the MazdaSpeed projects (Weldon Munsey) and while I got the full tour of the newly boosted MazdaSpeed Miata (with help from the product guy on that, David Mathew), and I got to see all the cool MazdaSpeed Rx8 stuff that is coming to a dealer near you, there was no hint of factory boost for the RX8.

Interestingly enough, they did explain that there will be three levels of MazdaSpeed mods for the RX8. Blue performance accessories that are installed by the dealer and get FULL warranty support. Green performance accessories that get a 12 month or 12k miles warranty. Finally, Orange peformance accessories which are sold "as is." This last catagory will be the most interesting....and certainly this means they will have a structure in which they could sell such items as boost kits.

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

Originally posted by RXhusker
Vince -- you better ask him to post all of his raw data on this supposed supercharger ;)

LOL

he sent me a link:
http://motoring.nzoom.com/motoring_detail/0,2734,170336-388-390,00.html

Old info and no warranty information.

Sorry!

Vince

I would listen to Brian Goodwin guys....he is a pretty reliable source of good tech info as well as for the rumor mill.

santino

Originally posted by Brian Goodwin
I suggest that was a defective transmission...

I agree, sounds like a defective tranny.

I posted that link a month ago.Ive done alot of research in this myself and sources ive talked to said yes,a very low parasitic sc is in develpment for an 05 jap late 05 06 release stateside.On the other hand the same resources say a 1.6 liter version is also in the works for the rx-7 making 260ish whp time will tell i guess.

Sounds good to me....I really hope that source is right. I will see if I can find any confirming on this end. I would buy that SC today and if a bigger motor RX7 comes out I would drop that motor in my RX8.

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

How about the bigger motor AND the SC? :D <== Evil Grin!

Originally posted by Omicron
How about the bigger motor AND the SC? :D <== Evil Grin!

how about forgetting the supercharger garbage and put a good turbo system on a turbo motor?? ;)

greddy has a turbo kit out in japan already? can you guys tell me more about it?

can you post a link or something? How do you know this? I know they have a twin turbo for the 350z but i didnt hear anything about the 8

jason from jt-imports
posted pics of the trust which is greddy here in the states
do a search for the pics

LOL...failed is an understatement. Completely locked up the drive train at 40+ mph as we were leaving. Just glad I was BEHIND him to see it all.

When you getting it back?

OK My information comes straight from the TOP of Mazdaspeed, so this is RELIABLE info. According to an employee (engineering of forced induction... cannot say name) ... this info was relied from a good knowledgable friend of mine that the renesis can handle MINIMAL boost which means Under 7psi. At this time Mazdaspeed has NO plans on making any forced induction application for the Renesis.

Originally posted by XDEEDUBBX
greddy already has a kit out in japan already...mazda r&d will be releasing the supercharger kit by early next year or so...

dude... did you just pull this shit out ur ass or do you have solid information or documentation of this. Do not post it is not helping people! As I understand it... IF (a BIG IF)... any one is to develop forced induction for Mazda it most likely would be Mazdaspeed. Mazdaspeed did the protege. IF they are going to F.I. the renesis... they would have already - like someone said... or start with the renesis and slap on F.I. then use in on the track - if its successful, market appears prime, and other problems worked out, then MAYBE it will be. But I HIGHLY doubt this.

I disagree, Efini. IMHO, Mazdaspeed is apt to be the LAST one to come out with FI for the '8, as they are an extension of Mazda, they have to be very careful with what they release if it could make the car die and Mazda look bad. Other aftermarket vendors don't have these constraints, and quite a few of them are developing FI as we speak.

Greddy will indeed probably be the first to market, as they DO have a unit done and in test under their European name - Trust. Check out this thread:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11374&highlight=Trust+turbo and this one:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9603

sweet! greddy/trust is awesome! TWIN TURBO!!!

R&T did a short on greddy's twin turbo kit for 350z, said it was real good and real high quality. it boosted z's output to over 370! and it looked real nice, too

obviously none of you have the low down on the aftermarket import industry. greddy will not be developing a turbo kit for the rx-8 for mazda to put as a mass produced vehicle.

Wait a second...Efini 8, are you saying that GReddy won't be making a turbo for Mazda to release as a factory option? Of course they won't...but nobody is saying that. There are really two issues at play...whether Mazdaspeed will put out a "factory" turbo version (and possibly kit) and whether some other aftermarket vendor, e.g. GReddy, will come out with a turbo kit for the aftermarket. I'd be shocked if the answers to those two questions were anything but "Maybe but no time soon, and absolutely yes," in that order.

jds

Originally posted by bureau13
Wait a second...Efini 8, are you saying that GReddy won't be making a turbo for Mazda to release as a factory option? Of course they won't...but nobody is saying that. There are really two issues at play...whether Mazdaspeed will put out a "factory" turbo version (and possibly kit) and whether some other aftermarket vendor, e.g. GReddy, will come out with a turbo kit for the aftermarket. I'd be shocked if the answers to those two questions were anything but "Maybe but no time soon, and absolutely yes," in that order.jds
My point exactly.

You can be assured that many aftermarket companies are going to offer turbo kits for the RX-8. They make them for Civics. Of course they'll make them for the RX-8. When the RX-7s (1st and 2nd gens) came out, it was less than a year before aftermarket companies had turbo kits for the non turbo cars. 2 seperate English companies made turbo 1st gens and one of them was even a dealer installed add on! The aftermarket makes what they know they can sell. I won't buy a turbo kit for a Civic but obviously someone somewhere will. The same thing will hold true for turbo kits for the RX-8. Someone will buy them.

Who the hell is so blind and close minded to say Mazda will not turbo or supercharge the RX-8? If you aren't a Japanese Mazda engineer speaking then you can't say this and be 100% sure. I remember several years ago that people swore the rotary engine would never return to the U.S. What's in our RX-8's? It is still far too early to speculate. Just because they (Mazda) hasn't come out and said it doesn't mean it won't happen in the future. The second gen RX-7 came out in mid '85 as an '86 model year. The Turbo II didn't arrive for another year. Some of you guys are saying it won't happen but you seem to forget that you are driving a 2004 model year car and it isn't even 2004 yet! Stop getting ahead of yourself. We don't know of one right now, it doesn't mean that the possibility doesn't exist for it to be there tomorrow. On September 10th did you think that the world would change the next day? Point taken yet? Did anyone honestly think Mazda would sell a turbo Protege when that car first came out? Trust me, Mazda has already run forced induction on a test mule RX-8. This doesn't mean that they will or will not sell it but they already know what will happen. By the time the public ever hears about something it has already been in development for several years. Ever consider that due to our Naziesque emissions rules that if a FI model does appear we may not get it while other parts of the world will? The upper model '84 and '85 RX-7s in Japan had a turbocharged 12A while the U.S. market got the nonturbo 13B. The European cars had larger intake and exhaust ports (and more power) than the U.S. due to more lax emissions rules. Australia got different cars. Every 2nd gen in Japan was turbocharged. They didn't even have a nonturbo 2nd gen over there, not even in the convertible! The 3rd gen RX-7 was still sold through 2000 as a current car with new variations in several countries but its run here only lasted for 3 short years ending in '95.

Stop speculating on something you aren't sure of. I am absoutely sure aftermarket companies will offer turbo kits. Greddy already has pictures and running cars in Japan. I am not sure if we will ever see a Mazda factory FI RX-8 or not but I still hope we will someday. If it does appear it will most likely be a small gain in power unlike the aftermarket goal of huge power.

Just to let you guys know.. I just came back from SEMA..

Gredddy reps said that the RX8 is on the top of their list for TURBO kit development right now and we will see something ready by TOKYO AUTO SALON.


From HKS, they just finished their exhaust and are dynoing now. There are no plans to develop a TURBO kit, just bolt ons for now, )(ie.intake ,exhaust, etc)

Motors magazine in Barnes and Nobles Bookstore said "they are developing a supercharger for the RX-8 maybe by 2005."

Who was "they" please?

The mazdaspeed version is supposed to come out with the supercharger. i also read that on the motor magzine yesterday.

YEAH OK

Yup, I agree.. if you look at all the proposed MPS vehicles or even the current MPS vehicles, they have turbos or something done to speed up the engines...

Now look at that "supposed" MPS RX-8.. no turbos.. just fancy suspension, some bars, some plastic skirts here and there.. nothing of real substance.. :(

I could be wrong.. go ahead Mazda, prove me wrong.

im trying to gather opinions and info.. my fellow z owners didnt give me the answers i was looking for so i figured i will ask you guys.

spring /summer of next year i plan on getting some boost. i am definitely doing a turbo setup, but still debating single or twin.

what are the opions on a kit vs a custom setup?. i hear all the time that custom will yield more power but nobody will tell me why this is the case. what is are the main differences? and can you just make a few changes to the kit down the road to achieve custom hp #'s ?

please help

I'm still a novice, but I undertand this notion "Money => power" :D

Custom setup give you options to choose the best parts combination, where as a kit will give you best buck for your money; then you will get into pro and con between different kit. In summary, custom will give you exactly what you want, whereas a kit will give you what the kit was designed for. As for getting a kit and upgrade later on, that fall into custom as well, but you are going into a different route to achive your setup which might dictate much money and time you spend to get to the goal you want compared to a custom setup.

So yes, custom setup in theory should give you much more power compared to the kit because you can combine all the best parts to archive that. But it can also go the other way around if do not choose your setup correctly and end up with less horsie than you're desired.

Oh yeah, don't forgot the tunning. . . and it keeps going and going like the never ending story before you blow your engine that is; in this case, for the RX8, you might not get too far since there wasn't much option available out there unless you can build and fabricate your own ;)

Sorry, don't know much about your Z!

The real question is how much money you have to spend on the turbo setup. I have absolutely no experience with turbos, but I've read a lot about the difficulties of making a turbo kit.

If I wanted an all-out racing monster (where money is no object), I would probably go custom (depending on the z turbo kit market which I know nothing about). If I wanted a safe, reliable turbo that has been tested, I would probably go with a turbo kit from a very reputable company (if available).

Basically a custom one-off will always be more expensive than a kit, no matter the application (sounds logical, no?). If you were building your own car you could never put as much into r&d as any of the major car companies because the cost is divided into so many units. It's as simple as that.

I suggest you read more about turbos before you go ahead with either option. At the very least read the turbo articles on howstuffworks.com. You can never know too much.

Go with SINGLE... there easier to work with, and makes more power.

why dont you go with the PROCHARGER supercharger for the Z... its intercooled and fairly reliable for FI newbies.

So have you decided that you want a turbo for sure, or do you just want more power? I ask because you didn't mention a supercharger as an option, and I feel it's worth considering.

Both turbos and superchargers make power via a turbine in the intake tract, that "forcibly inducts" or pushs more air into the engine than it normally draws... effectively raising the compression ratio of the engine. The difference between the two methods is in what drives that turbine. In the case of a turbo, it's driven off exhaust gasses, and you must have a certain velocity of exhaust for the turbine to be spinning fast enough to make power. This means you have to have the engine's RPM's up to get boost, and also usually means you don't gain as much off the line.

A supercharger, on the other hand, gets it power directly from the engine's crankshaft, so it makes power available at much lower RPMs. The drawback to this is that driving a SC's turbine causes a direct draw on the engine, which you lose some power to.

So essentially, superchargers are better for low end power, and better for off the line performace, while turbos kick in as your RPMs build. Twin turbos make up for some loss of low end power by using two different size turbines, one of which spools up at lower RPMs and the other kicks in as the smaller one reaches the limits of what it can put out. Which is better? Depends on what you want the engine to do and where you most want to feel the power gain.

Between kits versus custom setups, it all depends on how much money you've got to spend. If you can wait, the aftermarket will soon have a variety of kits available for the Z, but not much is out there now.

If you have the bucks, a custom setup will get you what you want NOW, without waiting. But it's apt to be expensive, probably in the neighborhood of $5000-$10000. Custom setups, if they're done right, require a well set tuner shop with lots of tools, fabrication and diagnostic equipment, and a dyno - at the very least. All that stuff's expensive. Even more important, they must have the technical knowledge to design a system, which costs even more. Get ready to spend big bucks if you go this route. If you find a "cheap" tuner who promises to build you a custom setup for not much money ($2000-$3000), procede with EXTREME caution, as they may well blow up your engine because they don't really know what they're doing.

One other thing to consider with ANY form of forced induction. Regardless of what you get bolted on, it's bye bye Nissan manufacturer's warranty.

Hope this helps...

thanks guys..

yes i am a FI newbie but i know enough about turbos and superchargers to make good choices...

the ATI procharger is the first to market.... so that is a plus and a minus.. people that buy them might be kicking themselves in a few months...

i want eventually to be in the 500-600rwhp range.. (not immediately of course) i think superchargers might not be reliably capable of this


thanks.. im just doing research wherever possible.. you never know who will give you the answer you were looking for
:cool:

Neither turbo nor superchargers will get you that kind of gain. For that much, you're going to need MAJOR engine work...

For the moment I thought toykilla had an RX8! :D Even with the Z the power gain will not come easy without breaking your arms and legs.

I recommend reading Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. Great book about turbocharging.

I dunno. You could definately get 500whp with replacing the major weak spots of your engine and a killer turbo set up with an incredible intercooler. given, it will take alot of time and money to do, but its not impossible. My friend with a WRX has plans for his to get 500whp with not a rediculous amount of money. Just do your research (sorry, we cant help you there) and go from there. The more you know the less it will cost with time and money.

yes i am aware that it will take some engine work.. but FYI the TOP SECRET single turbo kit in Japan is pushing 450rwhp.. but they will not send this to the states.. it is a j-spec bolt on kit.. no internal mods needed.

forged rods/pistons and a headgasket will easily get 500+

So find someone in the JDM and get them to buy you the kit. I'm sure you could find a tuner in the states that would put it on for you. But again, buhbye warranty... altho for that kind of HP, it might be worth it :D till you blow up your engine

hehehe. yeah

On the topic of single vs twin turbos: Many people like to stick with singles because they are simple. One turbo, one set of oil lines, one wastegate, only one turbo to run plumbing to, etc. Many people get fantastically high numbers from just a single turbo. Twin turbos on the other hand require obviously the purchase of two turbos, the fabrication of two of everything from oil lines to piping, wastegates, etc. I personally like going with twin turbos despite their added cost but heres why. To get the big horsepower numbers you want, you will need a very big turbo. A big single turbo has a wheel that weighs an awful lot. It takes more energy to get it turning. This equates to more turbo lag and more exhaust backpressure. On a properly designed twin setup you have two smaller turbos. Each wheel weighs less and therefor is easier to get turning. This is less lag and less backpressure. Obviously in your case you will only have half of the engine breathing through each turbo but that is fine. It will not hurt spoolup time. There are too many things going on with the exhaust flow in the big single setup. You have the entire engine trying to breathe through a small hole. It sounds like you would just be splitting the engine up into two smaller holes and this is true to a point. When using a twin setup you actually need 2 turbos that are greater in total flow through them combined than the single turbo is. That my sound a little complicated so go back and think about that. You also have less pressure waves traveling back upstream into the engine and affecting its tuning. The result is that the twin setup has less backpressure and spools up faster than the single. However twins need to spin faster than the single so they heat up the air a little more. There is always a tradeoff. I still believe that the twins have the advantage though. The charge from the twins isn't that much greater but the reduced backpressure in the exhaust is quite considerable. As a general rule (not an exact rule) for every 1 psi of exhaust backpressure you free up, it is like adding 1 psi of boost pressure to the engine. The turbos may heat up the air more at the same psi as the single turbo but they can make more power at a lower psi so the heat loss is inconsequential.

Here are some things to consider. If you do a single turbo setup you need to fabricate one insane manifold that joins the pipes from each side of your engine together in front to run to one turbo. Are you up to this challenge? It will have to be built in at least 2 if not 3 pieces for you to get it on the engine. How much stuff do you have to move in front of the engine to fit a turbo there? The good side is that you only need one set of intercooler pipes. The twins can be tucked away next to the engine. Their manifolds can be small and easy to handle. The exhaust is easy to figure out since they can just run through where the factory exhaust was. However, you will need two sets of intercooler pipes to get to the front of the car. Alos consider that since the turbos are next to the engine that they are receiving a much stronger and more instantaneous flow of gasses from the engine. If the turbo is in front of the enigine, the gasses have slowed down some and lost some of their heat. Heat is energy too and this also spins the turbo.

As a comparison using a real system (a rotary!):
Marcus Williams used to have a 3rd gen RX-7 drag car. He had a bridgeport on it since he wanted some serious horsepower. He was using a big single turbo but kept hitting a power brickwall at about 20 psi of boost. He installed pressure probes to see what was going on. At 20 psi of boost he had 21 psi of exhaust backpressure. When he raise the boost above this amount his backpressure started to double that of the intake side and cancel out any more boost. He made more power at 20 psi than at 23 psi. He then switched to 2 smaller single turbos in a twin setup. At 23 psi of boost he only had 18 psi of backpressure in the exhaust! Remember that for every 1 psi of backpressure you free up you effectively gain 2 psi of usable power. The twin setup far and away out performed the big single turbo. He could actually crank it up to 26 psi and still keep going. Yes his engine was tough! He also had much faster spool times. The point of all of this is just to demonstrate the effects of backpressure between single and twin turbo setups. Both will work at low to moderate power levels but if you want some serious power get 2 single turbos.

Call Turbonetics. If you tell them your engine specs they can recommend sizing for you. Understand that if you intend to change anything in the engine later that you will require a different set of turbos. Turbos by themselves can go for as little as $400 apiece up to $2500+ for a really large one. Intercoolers can be made or purchased. I built mine with cores from a junkyard that I welded together. I have less than $150 in it an d it is insanely huge. Piping you can make for relatively cheap but you'll need to find engine flanges. Don't forget fuel and an ecu. It may just be worth the effort to wait for a good kit unless you know how to do all of this. Luckily I do but I drive an RX-7 not a Z.

Anyways, there are several avenues to go down. Single, twin, supercharged, both centrifugal or positive displacement, nitrous, etc... Each has its own advantages and disadvantages.

Good luck.

Woh, and I thought my post was long. Great info tho Rotarygod!

Now not to hijack the thread, but have you spoken with Turbonetics about the RX-8? If so, what did they recommend? And do you know if they are working on anything? Inquiring minds want to know...

Originally posted by Omicron
have you spoken with Turbonetics about the RX-8? If so, what did they recommend?

well, i haven't, but i will recommend for all "high" power (6 port) RX-8 owners out there that you don't try to boost your engine unless you're really, REALLY sure you want to, and willing to open it up and do a few clever things to it (not the least of which would be lowering the compression ratio).

Agreed. My plan is an engine rebuild/strengthening etc after Mazda's warranty runs out, then adding FI at that time... see this thread for details: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14703

thanks for the info everyone.. my quest for power is indeed a great one..so i definitely take my time...

I will second the vote for the supercharger installation over the turbo. There was an AMAZINGLY OEM looking intercooled supercharger installation at SEMA by a South African company called "Alpine Developements Inc." They have a U.S. office here in California and I would give them a call and at least get the full details on who to contact about it here. I dug out their card: 714-379-8066.

Unlike the crappy Stillen kit this Alpine kit used a custom aluminum intake manifold to hard mount the Eaton supercharger on the engine with integrated twin air/water intercoolers in the custom manifold....looked 100% factory and does not require cutting the hood like the Stillen kit does.

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

Nice, Brian! I don't suppose that card had a email address on it...?

Oh, wait a minute, you're talking about a SC kit for the 350Z, aren't you? D'oh. Got all excited there for a second, thought you meant there was one for the RX-8. D'oh. :(

Yep, talking 350z supercharger.... I talked with them about doing an RX8 kit. They are happy to do it....but development cost estimate is 40k. Given how nice their 350z setup was I could hardly debate the costs but I am not about to foot the bill.

Here is that link: http://www.alpine-developments.co.za/index.html

Their 350Z kit was brand new for SEMA and I don't see it on their site yet.

As for our RX8, there are several U.S. companies looking at forced induction for us...but the impression I got was that it will be a while before anything is done.

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

Not to worry, I can (and will) wait, but I'm interested in following the development of these kits as they come out. Thanks for the info.

Since you arent that knowledgable of FI and are newbie to these things, supercharger kit would be the way to go, that is just my honest opinion. Its realitively 'safe' in the choices of FI, but you can always have problems, just research the kit before you get it and have it installed AND TUNED by a professional that has done kits like that before in your car and is familiar with aftermarket FI parts and the industry. My short by sweet recommendation.

Just like people said that the Supra was coming about in 2004? Haha... hmm it must be lookin like that Camry Solara they remade.

Originally posted by Efini 8
Since you arent that knowledgable of FI and are newbie to these things, supercharger kit would be the way to go, that is just my honest opinion. Its realitively 'safe' in the choices of FI, but you can always have problems, just research the kit before you get it and have it installed AND TUNED by a professional that has done kits like that before in your car and is familiar with aftermarket FI parts and the industry. My short by sweet recommendation.

Wait a minute turbo!

A S/C kit can be just as hard to tune as a turbo kit! Although a S/C might put out more reliable FI, it still requires a delicate amount of fuel tuning on the car. Even with electronics to adjust fuel, you might need a new Fuel Pump, and a new FPR.... oh wait... our cars are Returnless (like new Audi 1.8T's), so there can even be a higher degree of tuning either way!

Why would a S/C be a "short sweet recommendation"? Either way, each option will require new (at a min) 3D maps, and you will have to most likely interface with the ECU to attain those maps (Remember DBW Drive By Wire), no thottle cable.

Just keep that in mind when all the expert tuning doesn't work, as a lot of the experienced don't have exp with DBW system (and I've been fighting DBW since 1999) :(

update??????

Yes, please?

No kidding

check this post. I made it a few weeks after this one.
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13763

I haven't been back there reciently. I'll try to find the time to stop by and ask if there's any updates.

Last time I was there cam said to check their website for any updates, but they don't really update their site regularly. Anyhow, if you're interested their website is www.pettitracing.com.

no kidding they dont update
last update was july of 03

Hmm, that isnt too far from me. I'll try to drop in on them sometime next week and see if there is any news.

Genom, please post what you find out when you do, ok? :)

Well I figured information would trickle this way from the other forum, but it didnt.

Anyway BLITZ has a compressor kit made, not making much in the way of power, actually less then the Trust Turbo kit, but still in research stages more info to come, but I thought you guys might be interested to know.

got any pics, price, hp numbers

HP is only at 210, they are still working bugs and tunning.

RE-Amemiya says the computer is pain to put the turbo kit in. I mean to make it work is easy, to make it work correctly and good is a pain. I havent talking to BLITZ directly and I can get some pics later today, or call them direct and see if I can come see them and get some pics

No prices as i said its still in testing phase, but you can buy anything if you have the right connetions, so I will ask.

Just for fun I checked their wabpage, its not there yet, but I know its around, looks good too. I will get the pictures in about 6 hrs when I get back to JT

damm, i hope they make that Twin Supercharger Compressor kit they made for the lexus SC

Yeah that is pretty nice huh?

210hp is pretty low, but Im not judging it too much yet since they just put it in. Im thinking it might be more safe though then the Turbo that trust made at this stage.

I didnt see any companies running out to turbo charge the FC when it came out N/A, yes I know they made a Turbo version too, but it takes time. Its not going to be found over night.

Anyway, it looks good and Im just passing the info, we are usually in close contact with these companies, we can call and ask ANY questions at any company anytime.

Yes, sounds interesting, please keep us posted.

I would guess that kit would be in the $4000 range if its priced similar to their other products. Not worth the money.

Jason

210HP, but what's the torque. My bet is that they can probably bring the torque curve up a bit higher with the SC....


-andy-

Well here is the pic as promised.

Very clean install. When is more info going to be available, and how much boost is it capable of?

And pardon my ignorance here, but what is a "compressor" as opposed to a supercharger or turbocharger? I always thought it was just another name for the same thing.

One more thing... WHAT Trust Turbo kit??? Last I heard they were working on one, but no one has any info. You sound like it's a done deal. Can you elaborate?

Thanks...

And I assume 210bhp at the wheels, not crank? :)

Originally posted by Omicron
One more thing... WHAT Trust Turbo kit???

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?threadid=15834&referrerid=619

Seems like we keep getting the same magazines, Jason...

wHP for the TD06-18G GReddy kit: ~261hp

Rob

is it me or do you have to lose your tie bar to get that compressor to work(fit)

Turbo kit---Willl be offically released says the word at the AUTO SALON via Trust and RE-Amemiya.

Compressor--I will get some more info since in this article they were only comparing the the power and driving between the turboed RX8 and the Compressor RX8

What is a compressor, hummm like a supercharger here is a pic.

http://www.blitz.co.jp/products/compressor/comp-engine.gif

http://www.blitz.co.jp/products/compressor/comp-6.gif

thank you
very nice pics
glad Jt is back posting

Originally posted by shawrf1
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?threadid=15834&referrerid=619
Thanks, just saw this.wHP for the TD06-18G GReddy kit: ~261hp NOW we're talkin!!!! :D :D :D

It kind of looks like an Eaton SC.

-Mr. Wigggles

Yes, yes, keep us updated

Will do.......

When I hear it I will post it.

Torque figures...???


-andy-

Man 261 whp....doesn't that make it about 300+ at the crank?

article says 261 PS which is different from HP... I cant read japanese sooo I assume it means to the wheel power...

Originally posted by Efini 8
article says 261 PS which is different from HP... I cant read japanese sooo I assume it means to the wheel power...

yea, i had to look up the conversion real quick... http://www.enesg.com/modules.php?name=Conversion

265ps ~ 261whp

That Blitz picture is of a roots type of supercharger commonly known as a "blower". It is not a compressor. A blower does not compress the air. A screw type of positive displacement supercharger like a Whipple or Lysholm supercharger is a compressor. A centrifugal supercharger such as those from Paxton, Vortec, Powerdyne, etc. are also compressors. Turbos are also compressors. The only supercharger out there that that is not a compressor and they name it that! That is also only a 2 lobe roots blower. More modern designs from Eaton have 3 lobes per blower rotor and are also twisted for less whine and greater efficiency. That is an old school design there and the least efficient way of any other option out there including even other roots blowers. I would like to see an intercooled Whipple based supercharger kit. That would be worth buying!

ANYWAY

BLITZ has the right to call it whatever they want in my opinion.

You can always go look somewhere else, no one stopping you.

PS--Is almost equal to HP, its so close that it doesnt matter too much.

I was trying to think through how I would define the various Supercharger, Turbo, Compressor mechanicals as I was reading the thread. Glad I read the whole thing first cause RG already did it and made it clear and simple.

RG- Have you heard of a roots type called PSI? Biggest blower I've ever seen. Supposed to be real efficient too. I think this car will benefit more from SC than turbo myself. I'm holding out to see what develops but may go with Canzoomers Stage 1 while I'm waiting.

JTI- What has Blitz done with the ECU. I presume their piggy backing something to it? Do you know any details?

New member here...no RX-8 yet, but I figured I could clarify something. Rotarygod touched on the different types of forced induction, but I can add a few things.

HotRodder - The PSI blower you are talking about is actually a screw compressor much like the Whipple design, which was first pioneered by Lysholm. Screw compressors are much different than a Roots type blower.

A Roots blower has 2 rotors of 2 or 3 lobes that both turn at the same speed. A Roots blower has very little, if any, actual compression within itself, it creates boost by forcing more air into the intake manifold than can naturally exist. It is also the least efficient method of forced induction. Not only does it heat up the air more than any other type of compressor, it also produces the most parasitic drag on the motor: some larger Roots blower can require 300hp just to turn them at speed.

A screw compressor, however, has male and female rotors within the housing, and they both rotate at different speeds. This produces actual compression of the intake air within the blower housing. I'm not exactly sure why, but screw compressors produce much less heat as they compress the air as well. There is often no need for an intercooler when using a screw compressor. Screw compressors produce more boost at a lower RPM and at cooler temperatures, there is very little downside except cost. I believe the new Ford GT uses a screw compressor.

The PSI blower you are referring to is actually designed for alcohol drag racing cars (funny cars, dragsters that run 5.5 sec 1/4 mile times at 250 mph, making 4000 hp). They are massive designs and would definitely not be appropriate for an RX-8. The Whipple Supercharger would be an excellent choice, however, as I am sure it would create much more torque down low than any other mod for the RX-8. So if I were an enterprising Mazda tuner, I'd definitely look at a Whipple before turbos. Whipples do not need oil lines, they don't need an intercooler, and they don't need custom exhaust piping. Turbos are much much more complex and costly than a Whipple, and for a street car wouldn't offer any forseeable advantage (except for maybe the ricey type guys who like the whooooosh of a BOV).

I dont have any actual details on the ECU. I was a little busy today, but I will talk to some peps tomorrow and see about some info.

Hello

I am new to this forum but am not new to the rotary. I used to own a 3rd gen rx7 and had done many many mods to it. I am currently involved in the auto industry but with german cars. I am thinking about picking up an Rx8 for fun but want to make sure that mods are available. I am interested in what aftermarket turbo options are in the works and who are the cutting edge companies to work with for mods.

Thanks in advance

So far, only intake, exhaust, and suspension mods are available. An ECU piggyback will be out within a week or so. Also 1 company has developed a turbo (SSR Engineering) but it's not completely in production yet.

Rumor has it several major manufacturers are developing forced induction kits, Trust/Greddy being the most frequently mentioned. Blitz may have a unit ready to go soon too. But nothing has come out "officially" yet... probably not until first half of next year or so.

The RX-8 is so new, the aftermarket has not caught up with it yet. But's it's got an incredible following already, and this demand will definitely mean a plethora of parts soon to be had.

Hope this helps...

its only been out for a couple of months already,just imagin a year or 2

wow...i would go for the charger..

either I am skitzo and dont know it or someone got onto my account somehow..........


I did not post this thread....

Skitzo...lets hope not

probably need to seek help about this

I love the RX8 in every aspect but the power, and I know since the RX8 is n/a it won't really respond to mods. So I had the idea of maybe getting my own parts and turboing the car. I think those "turbo kits" that greddy or hks makes are overpriced, and with less or equal the amount of money spent you can get more power out of it.

Ok here are some questions:

As I mentioned earlier instead of waiting for overpriced underpowered "kits" from greddy or HKS.... are there any companies similar to petite racing that specializes in rotories that make custom exhaust and intake manifolds for FI, or even individual parts for that matter? I could easily gather my own parts and end up spending half less than getting a kit. The only two parts that are not easy to fabricate are the exhaust and intake mani.

Other than that the 02 housing, downpipe, exhaust, IC piping can be easily fabricated. Just about any turbo would work with the right flange to mate it up to the custom manifold, and same goes for an FMIC, just about any universal core would work as long as you have custom made piping. Everything else needed such as BOV, wastegate, fuel/engine management, clutch can be easily obtained.

As I said I don't know much about rotories.... but how do you lower the compression? There aren't pistons so there's gotta be another way. And a matter of upgrading to bigger injectors and fuel pump. Would an FD or cosmo fuel pump be compatible with the RX8?

The problems with the prototype aftermarket turbo systems isn't that they are not capable of producing big power. The problem is that the cars ecu controls so much of the car that it is difficult to tune. While you can in fact save money and custom piece, fabricate your own turbo system, you are going to have some serious issues getting it to work properly. Yes you can get an ftermarket ecu and fully tune everything yourself but this will override many of the features that the car already has such as the traction control system. You will also have to figure out how to get all of the gauges back working as well as changing the throttlebody since the car is drive by wire. A Motec ecu can controll the throttle though. As far as the fuel pump is concerned, the fuel pressure is regulated through the pump by the ecu. There is no return fuel line. You will need a new pump, regulator, and have a fuel return line installed. By the time you do all of this, the car will no longer pass an inspection anywhere in the U.S. I'm not even talking about emissions testing.

The only way to lower the compression of a rotary is with either different, lower compression rotors, which they do not have for the Renesis, or to find someone to mill out the rotors and then rebalance the entire rotating assembly. Changing the rotors obviously requires engine disassembly. While you're in there you may as well do some port work, retrofit stronger apex seals, add a custom center bearing, etc.

Yes you can build a cheaper system that when properly tuned rivals or even exceeds others out there. But how are you going to tune it?

Thanks for the reply.

About the tuning issues, if everything is controlled via wires/ecu, then all you need is an engine management computer of some sort. Well here's another question.... how are the aftermarket turbo kits different when it comes to tuning? With my own parts they're all going to be similar to what the "kits" have. From what I've seen those so called "turbo kits" are usually incomplete. You miss essential parts such as fp, injectors, fmic; so I highly doubt it would come with a fully re-mapped ecu. Regardless aftermarket or custom you're going to need to do something about tuning.

About taking apart the motor to lower compression, that's nothing new, with pistons engine you still need to swap to lower compression pistons and such. I personally think there's no point in spending thousands on a "turbokit" and running 6-8 psi of boost.

About the emissions testing, i'm not expecting it to pass (i have my ways), i'm planning on running catless anyways. As for the traction controls and such, i'm not sure what all the "features" are, but as for traction control I don't care for that either.

If you are willing to go the aftermarket ecu route then I say go for it! Obviously this isn't going to be cheap and probably comparable to an aftermarket kit in the end but you will have the advantage of added tunability and higher boost. Any aftermarket kits that come out will definitely need to address the tuning issue somehow in their kits. For cost effective reasons they will have to limit the total output at somehwere less than what many people would like to see. Others will love it. This is no different than the turbo kits for the RX-7's or any other car. The people that desire the most power always do some sort of fabrication.

The factory computer controls more than any ecu on any rotary before it. There is no fuel pressure regulator or return line. The ecu senses the engine needs and runs the fuel pump at the appropriate speed. The RX-8 is also drive by wire. No direct connection to the pedal. With some fabrication or a new throttlebody you should be fine. Traction control is something that you don't miss until you've had it and then lost it. The option of turning it off is very nice but it is a wonderful feature. If you don't mind having to find ways around emissions then I'd stick with the stock ecu hooked up to all of the cars features but then try to create "simulators" that hook in where other parts used to be connected. The O2 simulator plugs in to where the sensor used to be and fools the ecu so that no cel comes on. I would try to do the same with the fuel injectors and ignition coils too. Find a way to make the ecu think that they are still hooked up so that the gauges and other features still work but instead have the ignition system and injectors plugged into a new ecu. This could potentially work very well and the car would still have all of the other features.

I don't know of anyone who has yet to this date tried to mill out the rotors for lower compression. Hayes rotary in Washington state used to do this to the older rotors and they could take them down to 7.5:1 compression ratio. We don't know how much thinner the casting is on these rotors though since they weigh alot less than the 13B counterparts. High compression and high boost but severely retarded timing will not make for a very fast car. Until the compression issue is resolved the best option will be fairly low boost but the proper timing so as not to need to retard it much. This will make more power than the other setup. If you can get the rotors taken down 1 full compression point to 9.0:1 like the later T-II 2nd gen RX-7's and the 3rd gen RX-7's you could get sky high boost levels and even higher if you went lower on compression. Something else to think about is that the Renesis apex seals have gotten smaller than the older 2 mm seals. They aren't as tall and are a fraction thinner. While they may be stronger than the old seals, they have to be. I would still favor milling out the rotors for the older seals and then using an aftermarket set from Rotary Aviation.

An endeavour on the level that you are willing to go to will take a considerable amount of money. The turbo kit can be done relatively cheap and I can attest to this as I have personally built my own kits as well for both my RX-7's. The money starts to add up in engine strengthening and ecu. Also it will take considerable time to integrate everything in properly with all of the needed wiring changes. I'd actually like to see more people try stuff like this on their own. That is how you really learn how things work and you also learn how to improve upon what you have as well.

Go for it! Take lots of pictures too!

N/A Rotaries respond very well to mods like intake / exhaust and fuel / ignition maps. Even more so with some porting work. It wouldn't surpise me if someone gets 250whp or more in N/A form. Of course if you want to go higher then the turbo would be an option.

Ya, I can forsee a N/A getting 250whp in the near future. The only variable I would still be concerned with would be the low-end torque. Traditionally, the more high end one gets through simply port work as opposed to increasing displacemet, they sacrafice a bit of lowend. Combined with the 3000 pounds of the RX-8, one may very be better off with forced induction, especially for daily drivability.

Either way, 250 at the wheels is a respectable number.

Originally posted by NskGenakuDuckie
since the RX8 is n/a it won't really respond to mods.

bull. know what you're doing.

Originally posted by -=Zeqs=-
Ya, I can forsee a N/A getting 250whp in the near future. The only variable I would still be concerned with would be the low-end torque. Traditionally, the more high end one gets through simply port work as opposed to increasing displacemet, they sacrafice a bit of lowend. Combined with the 3000 pounds of the RX-8, one may very be better off with forced induction, especially for daily drivability.

Either way, 250 at the wheels is a respectable number.

it's not tradition, it's fact: the more you trade to optimize operation at high engine speeds the less efficiently the engine will work at low rpm, and thus you're not going to get much low rpm horsepower. it's not just porting either, it's manifold design, ignition timing, fuel ratios, etc... all the same things you'd have to worry about in a turbo motor.

250 rwhp, all motor?? hmmm... yeah, sure, maybe with a huge bridge, no emissions, perfect tuning, etc... if you want all low-end power, you can tune it that way. if you want the most horsepower you can make, you gotta take the hit.

i don't think that 3000 lbs is undriveable with a highly tuned motor... not as much fun as the surge of power you get with a turbo, but even then you still have the boostless dead zone off of idle.

but yes, i'd rather have a medium tune turbo engine over a highly tuned all-motor engine, too. but if i was gonna go to all the trouble (and cost), i'd use the 4 port and do it right.

Hey guys!! I'm kinda new to the forum so just wanted so say "hey" and that I'm glad to be here.

So, as I've been reading through all these threads, I've noticed lots of information about turbo's being worked on for the 8, and haven't seen anything about a supercharger. (If there has already been a post about this: I apologize)

It seems to me that a supercharger would be a much more logical upgrade for the 8 than a turbo given the low amount of torque this car puts out. Now, I could be completely wrong, but from my limited understanding of cars and racing, superchargers provide a lot more torque, while a turbo's effect is obvious.

So, just wondering if you guys know of any superchargers in the works... or if they're not being worked on for a reason.

Thanks,

Brit

You can't claim that any particular type of forced induction has more torque than another without first stating the variables. At what rpm? At what boost level? Etc... Different types of superchargers will provide different amounts of boost at different rpm's. A positive displacement supercharger will have much more low end torque than a centrifugal supercharger at the same boost level. Quite easily. For all intents and purposes a positive displacement supercharger produces the same amount of boost regardless of rpm. There is leakage around the blower rotors at lower rpms though which cause less boost until the engine gets spinning. A centrifugal supercharger poduces boost exponentially in proportion to rpm. Little to no low end torque gain over not having a supercharger. A turbocharger can have very good low end torque or none at all. Turbo lag is also not necessary. A smaller turbo will spool up much faster and have fantastic low end but suffer on the top end. A big turbo will have less low end but fantastic top end. The key with any type of forced induction is determining what your ultimate power goal is as well as determining if you want a race engine or street engine. A 400 hp rotary that has fantastic low end power and not too much boost is almost impossible. The engine is too small. Everything has its limits and the key with any system is to find the best overall compromise for your application. There are many books as well as threads on here about how different forms of forced induction work so I invite you to search around.

As to whether a turbo or a supercharger is better for the Renesis again all comes back to what the car will be used for. A supercharger almost always produces more charge heat than a turbo but not always. An intercooler should always be used as well. Anyone serious about a power boost will use an intercooler. The issue with the Renesis is the high compression ratio of 10:1 and the extreme control that the ecu has over all of the car. With a high compression ratio we need to either limit boost to a low amount, use higher octane gas, use an efficient intercooler, strictly retune the ecu, but probably all of the above. we are getting too close to a detonation prone engine to not take precautions. A good turbo system will have little backpressure, be efficient within the desired boost and rpm range, use an intercooler, and be tuned properly. This is easy to do since the intake manifold doesn not need to be touched. A turbo that meets all of these demands will be hard to beat in the efficiency department and therefore provide less heat and more power. Many supercharger systems utilize roots type of technology that is less efficient. Then to make matters worse many companies don't add an intercooler. This is a disaster waitng to happen with the Renesis. Either that or the intention would be to just get more average power at low boost with very little to no ultimate top end gain. The roots blowers just aren't that thermally efficient. The also really need to replace part of the intake manifold and move the throttlebody to in front of the blower. That is alot more work. The ecu still needs lots of attention. A centrifugal supercharger only provides adequate boost at or near max rpm. While their efficiency is that of a good turbo system and are easy to use with an intercooler, they will do little to nothing in the way of adding low end power to the Renesis. depending on the setup a turbo may develope more or less torque than a comparable supercharger system, whether it be at high or low rpms. Proper design is essential.

There is currently one known company working on a supercharger for the RX-8. The company is Blitz out of Japan. They are using one of the most inefficient roots style superchargers that you can even get anymore which is puzzling me. They do have kits for other cars that use intercoolers but it is unknown whether or not this kit has one or not. Their current power level for the supercharger system is only 210ps at the wheels. That is hardly worth it but they are still working on ecu tuning. Compare this to Greddy and their turbo kit that so far is producing 260ps at the wheels. They too are facing tuning issues. I think if properly designed systems come out it won't matter too much whether or not they are turbocharged or supercharged. Ultimately you can get more power out of a turbo but this is at the extreme upper limits of engine life and drivability. For the gains that most people would like to have, it can be accomplished with a good turbo or supercharger. There are so many variables that I have not discussed. I suggest finding some good reading and doing some hoework on the subject.

Here's a picture of the Blitz supercharger kit as it is still in developement.

ROTARY GOD

Since canzoomers stage1 kit seems to kick in at around 5000rpm what is required is a system that gives the rx8 more oomph down low up to 5000rpm .

WHATS THE BEST SYSTEM TO DO THAT AND STILL BE AN EVERIDAY FAST CAR?

thanks

michael

Originally posted by rotarygod
I suggest finding some good reading and doing some hoework on the subject.


...or give me a shout. one question at a time i can handle right now...

Originally posted by Lock & Load
ROTARY GOD

Since canzoomers stage1 kit seems to kick in at around 5000rpm what is required is a system that gives the rx8 more oomph down low up to 5000rpm .

WHATS THE BEST SYSTEM TO DO THAT AND STILL BE AN EVERIDAY FAST CAR?

thanks

michael

huzzah, no best system. it all (my favourite word) depends. depends on what you ask?? well, of course, it depends on what you want.

in the end, if you want better low rpm performance, increase the size of your combustion chamber. presto, more displacement = more power (especially effective at low rpm). if you're talking about modifying the 13B-MSP you already own, well, this will get long :D

because of the way roots chargers do their positive displacement thing, they're good for low speed flow, but as RG and PY and many others say over and over again, they're extremely inefficient (thermally speaking). this is bad for serious high performance.

turbos, well, same difference as a supercharger, but exhaust gas driven rather than belt driven. there are plusses and minuses which i really don't give a damn about right now. because it's a centripital compressor (works like a fan sucking air in, increasing its velocity immensly and thrusting it into a smaller volume than what it started in) it's inherently more thermally efficient, which is a good thing. but off the line performance isn't quite as spritely with a turbo as a super for lotsa reasons (no, not just because the compressor has to spin up to speed and all that... it's a factor, but there are others) and doesn't seem to jive with what you're after.

but that's all moot: in the end, what you'll find is that there are no absolute answers. there is no "best" solution all the time, only what's optimal given certain conditions.
if you want low-end performance, be prepared to sacrifice upper end (meaning overall) performance, and for the highest performing top end you're not going to have so much of a bottom end.

it's all about comprimise: what you want and what you're willing to trade for it.

because you're saying "low end" in a supercharger thread, i'm worried. i think it's fair only that (if you really want to) you find out all the nasty reasons i think superchargers (especially in the application for which i'm assuming you're thinking about) are just junk when you're thinking about performance, considering the engine we're talking about. but 'cause it's fairly late and i'm still working tomorrow (yay), i'm just gonna see if you're really interested in sifting through another one of these technical triste thingies some of us mega-nerds (y'know, the ones who always get the babes ;)) seem to be writing up right and left these days (well, most of mine are very very very old now).

g'mornin'.

WAACCHEK

TA, for your revealing posts , i will do some homework on superchargers / tubochargers and then post more ideas.

michael

god wakeech your annoying like my little brother...

Freakin' nerd goes to Case Western Reserve (interns at NASA) and says the same shit you do...

"all the girls think i'm sexy"...."geeks rock"...he even has a shirt that says something to that effect but uses an algorithm...what a retard...well he is smart...what do i know...im just a programmer...

Screw type??

isn't http://www.yawpower.com/ also making a supercharger application for the Speed World Challenge GT class?

http://www.speedsourceinc.com/ is also working on a GT car, no idea what configuration they'll use though (I think it's a different series).

I reckon I'd like to see a blower like the high efficiency twin screw ones they have been using very effecitivly on the LS1's. They are an inherently "high end" performer (if you call 5,500RPM high - hehehehe)

I wan't to see something that will fry the rear tyres when you go WOT at something like, say, 2 or 3k RPM. That would be wicked.

Bit worried about them (supercharger) having to work in such a wide power band.

Cheers,
Mark.

Thanks for all the replies guys... that was pretty in depth.

So now I don't want a supercharger, which is good, cause I wanted to make a decision.

I guess I just thought that because my mom has a Saab 9-3 Turbo, which is real smooth and has high end power like you said. And my dad has a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP (Beast)... The GTP means its supercharged BTW. And his car is pretty quick off the line, so being the non-car-smart person I am I just figured that was the difference between the two.

So, thanks for writing all that for me.

Later,

Brit

Originally posted by XeRo
god wakeech your annoying like my little brother...

Freakin' nerd goes to Case Western Reserve (interns at NASA) and says the same shit you do...

"all the girls think i'm sexy"...."geeks rock"...he even has a shirt that says something to that effect but uses an algorithm...what a retard...well he is smart...what do i know...im just a programmer...

im just a bum...hahhaha

Forgive me if anybody has posted this already but within this link there is a pic of a rotary engine with a turbo on it. It is just on a display but may give some clue about what Mazda is planning with the RX-8 then again maybe not.


http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54847

That is a really pretty photo. Makes my knees weak seeing such a beautiful motor.

Thats the hybrid hydrogen/dino fuel renesis engine that mazda showed off at the Japan Auto show, pretty sure it needed a turbo when running on hydrogen to make 150ish HP (someone correct me if i'm wrong). It takes a significat HP loss when switching from gas to hydrogen.

Originally posted by AvitalBlue8
Thats the hybrid hydrogen/dino fuel renesis engine that mazda showed off at the Japan Auto show, pretty sure it needed a turbo when running on hydrogen to make 150ish HP (someone correct me if i'm wrong). It takes a significat HP loss when switching from gas to hydrogen.

Well....Just smash my dreams into little bits and pieces! :)

So basically that is the rotary that has been mentioned that kind of runs on water?

just to add something here. From the way your talking about "low end" performance, try and drive an FD or FC with 0 boost and then you'll see what "low-end" performance is.

firstable, don't worry, this is not another turbo vs supercharger debate thread. I know they both have advantages over another and disadvanges. But which one of the FI produces more engine heat?

Since turbo's are based off hot exhaust gas, I would venture to guess it does. But then again, I have no clue and am just tossing out the obvious response.

Well, the hot exhaust gasses are there whether its turbocharged or not...in that case we're just asking them to do work. The exhuast gasses don't really interact with the induction side at all. The turbo MAY put out more heat...I really don't know...but I don't think it would be for the reasons you suggest.

Most modern turbo systems use an intercooler to remove some of the heat generated by compressing the intake air. The supercharger systems I've seen, or at least most of them, do not. Is this because it is difficult to squeeze one in there between the compressor and the intake manifold? Or do superchargers just not need them as much?

jds

Originally posted by 13B-MSP
which one of the FI produces more engine heat?

the heat energy made in an engine is a waste product of generating mechanical energy.

using either a supercharger or turbocharger isn't going to make an enormous difference in your engine's efficiency (some, not huge). in fact, even if you don't use one, it's not a huge factor in determining how much heat your engine is producing.

on a specific engine with a relatively fixed efficiency (yea much chemical energy becomes yea much mechanical, heat, sound, etc energy) you're going to generate a relatively similar proportion of that energy into heat, no matter your method.

ok, so what i'm saying is that it depends on how much power you're making in a specific kind of engine. you can't compare a 500lb V8 making 300hp to a sub 200lb p-port rotary making 300hp, because there are far too many differences (especially concerning conductive mass, and cooling systems, and lotsa stuff), but from one engine to another, speaking basically, the more power you make the more engine heat you'll have. how you make that power isn't a huge factor in how hot you'll make your engine (from what i know).

the most important part of all of this is really tempurature management, and that has less to do wiht the amount of power being made as it does the details of the cooling system.

Actually the mechanical energy is the byproduct of heat caused by the combustion cycle. While a turbine utilizes this heat, it also has more surface area than a plane jane header system inside the engine bay which raises the ambient temp under the hood. Additionally, rotaries do not like backpressure which a turbo helps create. In the end, a turbo system will be more efficient when measuring mechanical and thermal losses. Frictional losses as the result of mechanical movement and add a small amount to the overall heat output of an engine. Rotaries rely on oil for cooling more than they do the coolant system itself. Notice the 8 has TWO straight from the factory when the non-R1 model 3G RX7's only had one.

Rotary EGT's (exhaust gas temps) are significantly higher than piston engines as well. When you apply the tuning fork to a rotary and ask it to produce more hp, you're essentially asking it to produce more BTU's of heat, regardless of forced induction method. This is true of any engine.

wakeech is definitely right by stating it's all about thermal management. There's the tuning side which also contributes. In the end, however, a supercharged 8 will probably have lower EGT's due to less mixture contamination of the intake charge by recycled exhaust gasses. The gasses will pass through an efficient header system whereas a turbo will essentially stuff a potato in the exhaust path and create higher backpressure. Lower EGT's mean an engine with less stress internally regardless of cooling system efficiency. The cooling system (oil and water) goes a long way (for obvious resons) to keeping the motor in one piece :-)

Originally posted by Genom
Since turbo's are based off hot exhaust gas, I would venture to guess it does. But then again, I have no clue and am just tossing out the obvious response.


Actually, very little of the heat in the induction side of the turbo system comes from the exhaust gas heat. Most of it comes from the actual compression, which raises the air's temperature. Since turbos are generally more efficient compressing air than most superchargers, the air temperatures are lower. Even with cooler compressed air with the turbos, most sistems include intercoolers which help lower this temperature even more. Most supercharger systems heat the air more and push it to the engine like that without further cooling.

Originally posted by neit_jnf
Actually, very little of the heat in the induction side of the turbo system comes from the exhaust gas heat. Most of it comes from the actual compression, which raises the air's temperature. Since turbos are generally more efficient compressing air than most superchargers, the air temperatures are lower. Even with cooler compressed air with the turbos, most sistems include intercoolers which help lower this temperature even more. Most supercharger systems heat the air more and push it to the engine like that without further cooling.

Turbos,, hmm..

ok turbo's are more efficent yes. but the air temps wont be lower with a turbo, its generaly lower with a supercharger

difference?

turbo uses energy already produced (exhaust exiting the combustion chambers) no HP loss, TONS gained (but there's a spool up lag) they also get V E R Y hot, when i would pull over after a spirited run in my evo, the turbo would be glowign red like a cherry

superchargers use the engine to spin up the screws (lose some HP to gain LOTS with no lag)

If you want more info there's tons on the net

Heat is just a byproduct, it is your turbo/superchargers enemy, because it causes detonation (thats why people spray N20 or use big intercoolers (front mount or side mount) to cool the air after the turbo

recap,
turbo's DONT Like heat! & have good ways to get rid of it
Turbos are more efficent than Superchargers, but take time to spin up
Superchargers are nearly instant but use the engine to drive the compressor (so you sacrifice some HP)

recap, this has all been covered, you don't know as much as you think you do, as on some points you are wrong.

at equal levels of airflow and compression, air temps will be lower with a turbocharger.

DOH! I read that and thought "This sounds way too simple. Wakeech is about to bust out all over this." And so it was...

PS. Just curious, what's with the cape Keech?

Edit: NM, just saw the "Rotor Man"... Haha

Originally posted by wakeech
recap, this has all been covered, you don't know as much as you think you do, as on some points you are wrong.

at equal levels of airflow and compression, air temps will be lower with a turbocharger.

I know how much i dont know ;) thanks

it has been covered, your right..


and air temps are generaly only lower with a turbo because of the use of IC's

I dont even see how you can add boost to this car, so im prolly not going to buy one, might just go back to another evo :( definatly not as sexy as the 8 tho

kthnx troll again

air temps are generaly only lower with a turbo because of the use of IC's

You should search the forum and study a bit more your thermodynamics. "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell is a great read, very informative.
We're talking about the air just outside of the compressor, even before it gets to the intercooler. Because of its superior thermodynamic efficiency, the boosted air outside of a turbocharger's compressor will be at a lower temperature than with a supercharger at the same pressure and airflow levels. I believe the only exception would be a centrifugal supercharger which compresses air much like a turbocharger.
Another way to say it would be that given the exact same piping, intercooler design, airflow and psi levels, the car with the turbocharger will be ingesting cooler air than the car with the supercharger.

who said i was talking specificaly about screw SC ?

reguardless, i would nvr take an SC over a turbo on anything smaller than 3.0L

i thought i was trying to be helpful, just popped in replyed then read a few pages back and saw it was answered much more thuroly elsewhere (woo spelling!)

doesnt look like this engine is going to put out many more ponies that it does stock, too bad, i'll just stick with what i know good ole 4g63

Originally posted by TargeT
doesnt look like this engine is going to put out many more ponies that it does stock, too bad

...says the turbo motor expert. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by wakeech
...says the turbo motor expert. :rolleyes:

godamn, friendly bunch we have here?

sorry to have tread on your ground oh technical master :bowdown:

I know a couple of things about turbo engines & forced induction in general, enough to get by

your not making the best impression of your "community" everyone here waiting to shoot someone down when they post?

don't take wakeech too seriously, he's always like that :p

All of the statements made here have exceptions. Here are some examples.

I understand that the turbo itself gets very hot and can glow under hard driving. This is only the exhaust side though. Yes some heat is transferred to the compressor side but it isn't as much as it might seem.

A centrifugal supercharger does have an efficiency range of a good turbo system but the word "good" is the key. There are turbo systems out there that are not as efficient as a good supercharger (centrifugal" and the reverse applies as well. Along the same lines a screw type supercharger can fit in the same boat but on a good day the best screw type is still not quite as efficient (thermally) as a good centrifugal or turbo. But it can be very close. Different roots type blowers have different efficiencies. A Camden blower is a straight cut 2 lobe per rotor blower. This is the oldest and least efficient type of roots. The Eaton blowers use a 3 lobe twisted design that is quieter and far more efficient than the Camden units but still not up to par with the other forms of forced induction.

"Superchargers use the engine to spin up the screws (lose some HP to gain LOTS with no lag)." I'm not sure if I agree with this comment entirely. Yes a supercharger does rob power from the crank to get it spinning. However too many people fail to realize just how much power is lost on a typical turbo system. There are so many turbo kits and cars equipped with turbos that are just plain and simple subpar. Really crappy exhaust manifolds typically feed turbos that are way too small and restricitive. Ever notice how much power can be gained on a naturally aspirated car with a good set of headers? How much worse would it be if you put a restriction like a lousy manifold and a pipe as small as your typical turbo turbine wheel? Power would be much less. Basically there are so any gains that are cancelled out on a turbo car due to poor turbo designs. A good tubo system can actually be very free flowing with minimal loss as well as minimal lag. However in a perfect situation a supercharger still does rob power from the crank. The point is that just because the engine has a turbo does not mean that it couldn't be improved upon with a supercharger and vice versa.

"I would never take a SC over a turbo on anything smaller than 3.0L" Why not? A gain on a small engine is proportional to a gain on a big engine. In terms of a centrifugal supercharger you don't have the low end power on a small engine that you will need when the supercharger isn't really in the picture whereas you can fall back on displacement at lower rpm's on a bigger engine. In this respct I would agree but that was a pretty blanket statement that doesn't apply to other forms of forced induction.

"Air temps are generaly only lower with a turbo because of the use of IC's" Many supercharged cars are factory equipped with intercoolers as well. So that statement also applies to supercharged vehicles as well. While a nonintercooled supercharged car will have higher temps than those with, so will a nonintercooled turbo car. Many of these have been produced as well.

"I dont even see how you can add boost to this car" Well I have a picture of a turbocharged bar stool so I think it is possible! Just give it time. There are already kits in the testing stage.

All engines have "turbo lag". Confused? Turbo lag is best described as "fuel lag". It takes time for fuel to get into the engine after the throttle is depressed. The closer the throttleplate and fuel injectors are to the engine, the less the lag. Throttle response isn't neccesarily much better on a supercharged car especially an Eaton equipped car. Step on the gas, and the car starts to move forward but it takes a second for the bypass valve to react to the change in manifold pressure enough so that it can close and allow the engine to receive boost. Supercharger lag? Even other roots type of systems with the throttle before the supercharger have a slight delay due to the added distance of the throttleplate from the engine. Typically carburated cars have less lag or delay time than fuel injected cars but there is alot to do with the intake design that can change that. Go out to your car and step on the gas and see if the engine rpm rises exactly when you press the gas or if it delays for a second. Trust me, it delays. You just don't realize it. If you don't have forced induction, you still have lag. You just don't get to enjoy the surge of power after it .

Here are some of my guidelines for choosing each type of system.

If you have a small displacement engine and want a moderate power increase for daily driving, you should probably favor a positive displacement supercharger or a good turbo system that can produce boost down low where your engine is lacking any power.

If you have an engine with a very wide powerband, stay away from centrifugal supercharger. Since boost rises exponentially, you don't want 6 psi at 6500 rpm but 11 psi at the 9000 rpm shift point. If your engine only had a powerband that was 1500 rpm wide, this might not be much of an issue since boost stays much more linear. You optimally would like at the same amount of boost across the entire rev range for maximum average power.

For large displacement engines you can go gung ho and do a system that produces tons of power everywhere. However an engine that produces 500 ft lbs of torque at 1500 rpm may be a little difficult to get off the line. You have the option here of falling back on displacement and designing a system that works best at higher rpms. These engines don't typically rev that high so a centrifugal supercharger is just fine. Remember that since output of these superchargers is an expnential increase with rpm, the higher the rpm, the more drastic the gain. With a lower powerband, total power and boost is much more stable.

Just some things to think about.

Originally posted by neit_jnf
don't take wakeech too seriously, he's always like that :p

no, only when i'm having a bad day and being a cranky bitch.

sorry about that TargeT. i sincerely apologize for being so intentionally offensive.

Originally posted by wakeech
i sincerely apologize for being so intentionally offensive.

Then why do we always have to see your damn picture in your avatar you ugly mofo! ;) j/k

rotarygod, sounds like you have some experience with SC'd cars but maybe not so much with Turbo cars, I'll try to shed light with what i've picked up from practical aplication on turbo'd cars ( i race em, run em hard & fix em when i break em)

I understand that the turbo itself gets very hot and can glow under hard driving. This is only the exhaust side though. Yes some heat is transferred to the compressor side but it isn't as much as it might seem.
Actualy this is refered to as "heat soak" and the entire turbo, part of the exhaust manifold, and sometimes the heatshield for the turbo will glow in various stages of red/white. you lost a VERY noticeable chunk of your posible HP when your engine becomes heat soaked. (this is also why on older turbos it was VITAL to have a turbo timer on your car, or at least let it run for about 3 min after your done driving so that the oil can continue to cycle through the turbo)

The rest of your post i cant comment too much on, as I am generaly unfamilar with SC solutions in practical application but you dont seem to give turbo systems too much credit

I can see that your SC biased by reading your
guidelines for choosing each type of system.
where you barely mention turbo's as a viable option.

Small displacement engines generaly produce their power by reving very high in comparison to large displacment engines, losing a lot of potential energy out of the exhaust pipe, energy begging to be harnessed by a turbo
on the same note, most small displacement engines cannot power a blower (Supercharger) big enough to produce high boost levels for BIG HP gains (20+ PSI), or if they do the HP loss due spent driving the SC is unacceptable. This is why i would stick to turbo solutions
Of course, it all depends on your application, Running a 20G turbo ona 2.0L with the right supporting mods will put you into a 11.5 1/4 mile but the turbo lag is nearly unbareable (IMO) you dont get full spool till 4200 RPMs or so
smaller turbo, faster spoolup, but you cant push as much boost (the twin scroll 16g on my Evo gave me full boost at 3000 rpms and started spooling up at 2500)


(as you can tell, im a fan of turbo's)

I've got a IHI RH-C7 turbo on a big streetport 4 port 13B that I built myself sitting in my 1st gen GSL-SE RX-7. It was the engine that I had built for my old 2nd gen. I am also about to buy another 2nd gen T-II RX-7 and upgrade the turbo and engine on it. Still think I am biased toward superchargers? I don't have one. Almost all of my experience is with turbo cars. I just know how superchargers work and when to use them if I wanted to.

My personal take is that if you absolutely need to run 20psi on an engine, it is probably for race use in which you would use a turbo anyways due to efficiency reasons. Most people seriously contemplating superchargers aren't planning on running that much anyways but rather looking for a nice gain across the board. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone who needs 20 psi on the street should probably be considering a bigger engine first.

BTW: superchargers get heat soak too. I've never seen any part of them glow red but they do get quite hot.

I love turbo cars and I did indeed leave mention of them out. Lots of people know how to pick a good turbo. Not many people know how to pick a good supercharger or when to.

Originally posted by rotarygod
I've got a IHI RH-C7 turbo on a big streetport 4 port 13B that I built myself sitting in my 1st gen GSL-SE RX-7. It was the engine that I had built for my old 2nd gen. I am also about to buy another 2nd gen T-II RX-7 and upgrade the turbo and engine on it. Still think I am biased toward superchargers? I don't have one. Almost all of my experience is with turbo cars. I just know how superchargers work and when to use them if I wanted to.

My personal take is that if you absolutely need to run 20psi on an engine, it is probably for race use in which you would use a turbo anyways due to efficiency reasons. Most people seriously contemplating superchargers aren't planning on running that much anyways but rather looking for a nice gain across the board. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone who needs 20 psi on the street should probably be considering a bigger engine first.

BTW: superchargers get heat soak too. I've never seen any part of them glow red but they do get quite hot.

I love turbo cars and I did indeed leave mention of them out. Lots of people know how to pick a good turbo. Not many people know how to pick a good supercharger or when to.

I run 20-22 PSI on the street, 29 PSI at the track on my Talon TSI
I like the fact that my lil "4 banger" beats out most V8s with ease
and i still get good MPG (if i stay out of deep boost ;) hehe)
I hope they crack the ECU on this baby so you guys can get some Turbos tossed on it, that would make this car actualy perform pretty well instead of better than the average daily driver, i guess im a bit more of a performance enthusiast and this car isnt for me right now :(

btw, DROP AN LS1 or LS2 in those RX-7's!! i thought that was the only reason people got those!
good info tho & ur right, not a lot of knowlege about SC out there, but thats just another reason to go turbo, lots of support :D

Yeah I see alot of people do that but it just escapes me. Then again I don't drag race either and you do admit to some track use. I like to turn! My little first gen will beat most of those V-8 cars throught the twisties. In fact it would do a good job at it with stock horsepower levels. A little suspension work and some power and it is just that much more fun.

I am a fan of the LS1 engines. IF I HAD to have a V-8 that would probably be it. However I own an RX-7 because it is a rotary and that is what I love about it. I wouldn't need an RX-7 if I had an LS1. I'd just buy a Camaro instead. I really don't care how cheap, easy, or fast it is to swap one into a light little RX-7. If it isn't a rotary I personally feel that it doesn't belong in an RX. If I had an LS1 car, I'd probably turbo it too. I wouldn't let a little boosted engine beat ME if I had a V-8! ;)

at the sema show was a turbo rx8 from nj

It didn't have a 13B MSP, it was a 20B.

they already made a turbo kit for the rx-8 i think hks . they dont got a price on it , but so far in the picture the turbo in mounted in front of the alternator and the intercooler a front mount. ill try to see if i can remeber the web page.

Does anyone know if any other aftermarket manufacturers are in the process of making a turbo kit for the RX-8 such as Greddy or Apexi? Also i keep hearing about the HKS turbo kit but when i go to the HKS web site the only aftermarket product they have for the RX-8 is their exhaust. Where do they advertise that kit, is it on their web site or on a seperate site?

i dont think anyone else has made a turbo kit for the rx8, but probably will in the furture...I also need a link to the advirtisement of the HKS turbo kit.

I have searched high and low and finally I have found some good news.
RX-8 Turbo Kit (http://www.ssr-engineering.com/products_rx8turbo.php)

I hope you guys like.

According to the latest road and track magazine, in which they were discussing the mazdaspeed RX-8, mazda north america is working on a supercharger for the RX-8 and a hydraulic turbocharger (uses a pump intead of engine exhaust). The mazdaspeed RX-8 also has a different exhaust and engine mapping that gives it more low end power and more torque similar to Canzoomer's Stage 1 kit.

The article starts on page 64 of this month's issue so the next time you're in the store, give it a read. It was cool to know that the mazdaspeed RX-8 also had no real engine changes in it's current form and apparently they also have a dual mode hydrogen/gasoline rx-8 on the way.

Ajax

Hi guys, new to forum obivously, I'm a SC'd miata owner (190hp roughly) and eventually will be a RX8 owner. I haven't taken the time to completely read through all these threads so this information may be redundant or old.

Anyways one of the great SC kit manufactures for Miatas recently bought a RX8 and is going to start working on a SC kit for the RX8. This particular thread explains in fair detail as to why the RX8 didn't make good dyno numbers in SCC. This will also be the place for you guys to find updates on what I'm sure is one of the many FI kits being prototyped right now.


thread (http://brpforum.infopop.cc/eve/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=95960994&f=37960994&m=595107653)

I think that Mazda probably will unveil some new FI technology when they come out for a kit with this be, whether it is a hydraulic or whatever they decide. They already have a trubo Hydrogen Renesis that is spooled at low rpms by an electric motor until exhaust is strong enough.

Question is, will they come out with a kit (please please please!) or will they just sell an "extra high performance/Mazdaspeed" version of the car starting with 2005 or 2006 model years? My guess would be the latter. Sadly. :(

it would also be nice if a turbo kit came through Mazda North America and still honnored the waranty.

I've heard from a few sources that they are producing a turbo kit from Mazdaspeed though it's hard to say when it will be available or even wheather it will reach production.

Originally posted by Omicron
Question is, will they come out with a kit (please please please!) or will they just sell an "extra high performance/Mazdaspeed" version of the car starting with 2005 or 2006 model years? My guess would be the latter. Sadly. :(

Sad for you...but maybe good for me!!! hehe. I would LOVE a turbo 8. that would be the best car in the world. especially if they are factory installed and still covered under warenty. I hope they come out with one for '05. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

that would be perfect as i'm looking to be getting an 8 within the next year....test drove one and loved it

does anyone know wether greddy is starting to make a turbo kit for the RX-8 or if any other companies such as hks or apexi are in the process of making a turbo kit for the car?

The Greddy kit is just about out or already is in Japan. I haven't heard anything about Apexi or HKS. Judging by HKSs track record they ususally take thier time when making turbo kits. It took almost 2 years for a WRX turbo kit to be finalized here in the states so I wouldn't expect to see one from them any time soon,.... though I have been wrong before.

When will the SSR turbo be ready for sale???

Originally posted by RatedR_RX-8
does anyone know wether greddy is starting to make a turbo kit for the RX-8 or if any other companies such as hks or apexi are in the process of making a turbo kit for the car?

Want detailed info? Try a search. I have posted info from Japanese mags on this in a few threads.

Ok, here's a different question: What is the relationship between boost added to an engine, via TC or SC or leaf blower (;)) to the final compression of the engine at boost? Eg, if we add, say, 5 Lbs of boost to a 10.5:1 compression motor, what compression results? Is it a straight adder, like 10.5 + 5 = 15.5:1, or is it a ratio?

Second question, specifically for Rotarygod: You have repeatedly emphasised that a properly sized unit is critical for a particular motor. That being the case, what size TC specifically is the "right" one for the Renesis? T03? T04? Leafblower? :D IOW, if you were to build the ideal setup for the '8, what unit would it use, and why? Thanks...

Originally posted by Omicron
Ok, here's a different question: What is the relationship between boost added to an engine, via TC or SC or leaf blower (;)) to the final compression of the engine at boost? Eg, if we add, say, 5 Lbs of boost to a 10.5:1 compression motor, what compression results? Is it a straight adder, like 10.5 + 5 = 15.5:1, or is it a ratio?

All I can tell you is that it's not a direct adder. It's more complicated than that. Airflow considerations, compressor efficiencies, temperature, rpm, all contribute to the final compression ratio.

Ok, about what I figured. So how DO we determine what the final compression ratio is?

Originally posted by Omicron
Ok, here's a different question: What is the relationship between boost added to an engine, via TC or SC or leaf blower (;)) to the final compression of the engine at boost? Eg, if we add, say, 5 Lbs of boost to a 10.5:1 compression motor, what compression results? Is it a straight adder, like 10.5 + 5 = 15.5:1, or is it a ratio?

In a simple answer, no.

Static compression ratio of 10.5:1 will never change. You are referring to the effect of boost on the effective compression ratio. 14.7 psi is what the engine sees as pressure from the atmosphere on a "perfect" day of around 60 degrees at sea level. It's pretty close to this number. When forced induction is adding 10 lbs of boost, the engine actually sees 24.7 psi. we just assume that 14.7 psi is at 0 and start from there. Depending on the weather conditions this number may change either up or down even though the gauge still reads the same. There is a different amount of air on the engine. This is one reason why I stress that a published boost number in psi is really irrelevant when it comes to power. We don't have enough information.

I'm going to use a small number for example sake. By adding .5 psi to the above number of 14.7 psi, we are only theoretically adding around 3.4% more air to the engine. This would theoretically only raise the effective compression ratio by the same margin in percentage and bring it to 10.85:1. However this is all fine and dandy on paper by the actuality is that we probably have less than this due to temperature rise and timing. Since each engine is different, we really can't just use this simple formula to determine the effective compression ratio. We'll eventually hit a brick wall in effective compression ratio where we can't go any higher without higher octane gas. We will just get to a point where timing retard cancels out any benefits that any increase in boost will give us. Corky Bell gets into this type of math in his books so I won't deal with it here. It isn't just a set number that you can calculate but rather an educated guess based on theoretical situations. The biggest problem with automotive math is that just because it works on paper, doesn't mean that it works in real life.

Here is a link to a chart from BDS blower systems. I personally find the general trend of this chart to be correct but the functional truth of it to be far from realistic. It basically suggests that we can't safely run more than about 3 psi of boost on pump gas with a 10:1 compression ratio or that a 9:1 compression ratio engine can't run more than about 6 psi of boost. I have run 15 lbs of boost on my 9:1 compression RX-7 on pump gas with no issues what-so-ever and I can probably go higher. The problem with this chart is that nowhere does it mention the effects of compressor efficiency or the effects of timing changes. It is because of these additional factors that make it hard to determine what the effective ratio will actually end up being. Here is the chart anyways. Don't rely on it. Just use it to show the example of how less boost and more static compression in equal to lower compression and higher boost.

http://www.goodvibesracing.com/Compression%20Ratio.htm

Originally posted by Omicron
Second question, specifically for Rotarygod: You have repeatedly emphasised that a properly sized unit is critical for a particular motor. That being the case, what size TC specifically is the "right" one for the Renesis? T03? T04? Leafblower? :D IOW, if you were to build the ideal setup for the '8, what unit would it use, and why? Thanks...

A T3 based turbo is way too small for a rotary. If you are using 2 of them, you can make them work.

The properly sized unit will really be dependent on what application you are using it for. If the engine is being setup for drag racing where huge top end power is all that is neccessary then a larger turbo will be needed. If it is for low to midrange power with moderate boost then a much smaller turbo is needed. There is no one right turbo for the engine. It is a function of how much boost you want to run, where you want the power to be centered at, and how soon you want the turbo to spool up.

Depending on the situation I would use different turbos. For a good power increase for street use that is easily drivable but not really laggy, I would use a rather small T-04B or 60-1 HIFI for the compressor. These can flow enough air for about 400 hp but would probably be most efficient around the 350-375 range. Yes they can get more but you are really spinning them up and need a very efficient intercooler. On the exhaust side I would use a P trim turbine with a single inlet. I don't want the 2 seperate exhaust paths entering the turbo that are so common today. With 3 exhaust ports there is no point. I would start out in the vicinity of a .8X (insert numeral for X) or larger housing and adjust the size on a dyno to be sure it fits my needs. This is where I would start for street use. For higher power I would start looking at other options. I would also use a ball bearing turbo if at all possible with both oil and water cooling. You can get away with only oil but water lowers the risk of oil coking within the turbo. That setup would give a very nice drivable street car. Yes there are better turbos for more power but this would be responsive with a good deal of lowend and quick spoolup time.

I'm sure others will disagree on this selection but many people are hooked on the fact that larger must be better. Many of the RX-7 crowd have turbos that are far too large and are designed to be most efficient in a higher boost range than they are even running. My friend Brian in Dallas has a streetport 13B with 8.5:1 static compression ratio, a Haltech computer, air/water intercooler, and a 60-1 HIFI turbo. The HIFI is the SMALL 60-1. His best power number to date on that setup was 424.6 rwhp at 16 psi. That is pretty damn good. By contrast a T-66 or T-76 turbo typically can't hit this number at this low a boost level. It is all about efficiency. Run those turbos in the mid to upper 20's for boost though and hold on! Brian's car got this number from good tuning and the fact that the air/water intercooler has an ice tank. There was frost on the intercooler. This is why I say a realistic number from this setup on the average street car to be set in the 350-375 range but approaching 400. For a clear majority of the people this is more than enough and will easily propel a sub 3000 lb car to low 12's in the quarter mile. Why go any larger for street use? This same turbo isn't the best choice for a bridgeport 13B though. It will still get around the same peak horsepower but the midrange will be much nicer. While good for street use, the top end number is compressor flow limited.

Thanks for the great answers as always, RG!

Ok, regarding your boost versus compression answer, is there some way to estimate what the final compression ratio will be at boost?

And as for the ideal FI setup, that was exactly what I'm after. Now when the kits start to come out, I'll be looking first at what kind of turbine they used. Your "street" setup is exactly what I had in mind. :D

So what do you think of the ATI/ProCharger/Sunflower Mazda setup that's coming out?

While you were typing this I was probably updating my first response above. Scroll back up and see if you saw the whole thing.

Cool, that's what I was after. Thanks again!

rotarygod, how would your description of a street turbo kit change for a street/track combination use for the rx8?

Better top end power, less low end power. For track events, your average usable powerband is different than it is when you are just driving on the street. For track events you want more of your power in the top end where the rpms will stay most of the time. For street use it is important to not have power fall off on the top end but you may not necessarily need as much ultimate top end power since most of your driving isn't done here. This is why a smaller turbo is better in this application. For dual use you need to decide whihc is more important to you. Then you need to find a good middle ground. It may be as simple as just using a different exhaust housing on the turbo.

Is a 30 page Sticky really helping anyone? Seriously.

Aren't stickies supposed to be concise important topics that are moderated in order to maintain ease of use and topicality?

30 freakin pages!!!

No, stickies are topics that people like to talk about a lot, or topics that are of real interest or importance. 30 pages here is a prime example of the former.

It also keeps people from reposting the same topic over and over again and then people start yelling at people to search and then people start to cry and then....you get the point. ;)

what ever happened to the electric super charager idea?? is that still floating around, or has it become vaporware already?

Great topic. I would like to see a solution to the low end torque problem with the 8.

Originally posted by serff
It also keeps people from reposting the same topic over and over again and then people start yelling at people to search and then people start to cry and then....you get the point. ;)

what ever happened to the electric super charager idea?? is that still floating around, or has it become vaporware already?

Yes, this electronic supercharger is still out there and I have been talking to one of the forum members who is planning to try this out. I have talked with the manufactures of this product and they swear by it (of course they do) but the really interesting thing is when you read the testemonials on thier website about how well this thing works and then realize that a majority of the testemonials are from Porsche owners.

So, what will blow the motor first? 10 second blasts of e-scharging or nitrous? Whose doing the ECU maps? How long to market with a product that has predictable performance and reliability (not necessarily bullet-proofed) results? Will the e-charger reduce off-boost performance other than due to the weight penalty?

Originally posted by MPG > HP
So, what will blow the motor first? 10 second blasts of e-scharging or nitrous?

The one that will blow the motor first is the one that is tuned the worst. If both cars are tuned good, it doesn't matter. This of course assumes gains within reason.

The E-SC doesn't require any remapping of the ECU since it is only producing about 1.5-2lbs of boost at WOT. The unit doesn't even come on untill the accelorator is smashed to the floor. There's no chance of blowing the motor because it doesn't push enough boost.

YOu have a greater chance damaging the motor with nitrous for sure because your adding a highly combustable chemical in to the air/fuel mixture.

Originally posted by VividRacing.com
Yes, this electronic supercharger is still out there and I have been talking to one of the forum members who is planning to try this out. I have talked with the manufactures of this product and they swear by it (of course they do) but the really interesting thing is when you read the testemonials on thier website about how well this thing works and then realize that a majority of the testemonials are from Porsche owners.

I will try to fond the mag its in. but Mike knight mad a electronic supercharger that was not so good from what I read. It coust as much as a superchatger? and you have to wait till it charges back up to boost?...

i love your signature quotes rotarygod. they're awesome.

I am new to this forum and am researching an RX8 as a replacement for my 96 Miata. I don't have the time or patience to sift through 30 pages, but it seeems no one has mentioned anyone actually doing FI on an 8 yet. I stopped by Sunflower Mazda in Olathe Kansas (Kansas City) a couple months ago and they had a car there they were putting a SC on that the sales guy claimed could make 400hp. It was a car they were building for a lawyer that was also getting a suspension makeover and had 19' Racing Hart wheels. He said they were one of only 2 dealerships in the nation authorized to do it right now (?) while still maintaining warranty. I didn't know much about them at the time, or that it was such a rare thing, or I would have investigated further. I can't even remember what company he said it was. I will be out of town for a few days, but will check back with them next week and see if I can dig up more info.

I got to stop by Sunflower Mazda today and get more info. They are using a centrifugal sc made by ProCharger, based down the street from them in Olathe, Kansas. For more info check out:
http://www.procharger.com/systems.shtml

They also had a silver 8 with the full MS body kit and 19" Racing Hart wheels, 245/35 front, 275/30 rear. Sweeet!

Oops, I just saw there's already another thread about Sunflower with pics.

Will a Greddy T78 fit in the RX-8's engine bay, provided some of the auxiliary junk in the engine bay is moved? Does anyone have the overall dimensions?

I am new to this forum and am researching an RX8 as a replacement for my 96 Miata. I don't have the time or patience to sift through 30 pages, but it seeems no one has mentioned anyone actually doing FI on an 8 yet. I stopped by Sunflower Mazda in Olathe Kansas (Kansas City) a couple months ago and they had a car there they were putting a SC on that the sales guy claimed could make 400hp. It was a car they were building for a lawyer that was also getting a suspension makeover and had 19' Racing Hart wheels. He said they were one of only 2 dealerships in the nation authorized to do it right now (?) while still maintaining warranty. I didn't know much about them at the time, or that it was such a rare thing, or I would have investigated further. I can't even remember what company he said it was. I will be out of town for a few days, but will check back with them next week and see if I can dig up more info.Problem is, you're in the wrong post to discuss specific FI kits that are in development. Search the entire Mazdaspeed/Aftermarket Performance forum, and you'll see this is a VERY common topic. Tons of threads out there.

Good info about the Sunflower kit too, but that also has a couple of threads discussing it in detail.

Guys, I heard from a Rotary speacialty shop in Florida, that works with the famous FISHMAN, that not only will the MazdaSpeed Turbo RX-8 be released in about 6 months, but that with our stock rotors we could only build safely six pounds of boost. And that we would have to switch out for high pressure rotors that can stand 15 pounds of boost.

oh yeah, this is a real long thread to read all of it, so could some please tell me what companys already sell SC kits we know will work with the 8?

I was wondering when the new RX8 Turbo kit will be available and how much it may run price wise. Year(s) or sooner.

Thanks,
William Hall





Thanks for your interest in GReddy Products
Trust does offer a turbo kit for the Japanese spec model, but currently we do not have an application that will work with the USA spec RX8. We are still unsure if we will make one available for the USA spec car yet, but we are working on it now.
Please check back with our website www.greddy.com for updates or contact an
authorized GReddy Dealer
--
GReddy Performance Products, Inc.
9 Vanderbilt
Irvine, CA 92618
www.greddy.com


PLEASE GOD NOOOOOOOOOOO! TURBO NO GO TURBO NO GOOOOOOOOOOO

OK, anyone else thinking light boost (6 psi) roots style (electric clutch - load sensing) supercharged 3-rotor Renesis?

This car is far more a GT than a hypersportscar, so turboing it seems out of character, no? Think Ferrari 550 more than 3rd gen RX-7.

I spoke with a rep from Pettit Racing and they told me the bad news about thier project car. Apparently the car with running supercharger was sent out to a test facility and was being tested by Road & Track or Motortrend (can't remember which one) about a week and a half ago. Whom ever was driving the car (not Pettit staff) was preping for a 1/4 mile run and when the tree lit up he droped the clutch at 5000 rpm and destroyed the tranny, well 1st and 2nd gear anyway, and they had to stop the whole testing deal. Pettit will be gettin the car back and replacing the transmission or at least gears and will return for the testing to continue. It doesn't appear to have been a failure due to the supercharger but rather my money is on the mental giant of a driver for the company doing the review. Yes, the SC does produce more low end tourque and that could have had a little to do with the failure of the tranny though it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that 5 grand drops aren't what the car is made for. Either way to dispell rumor, Pettit is still planning to move forward with the SC kit and should have the first prototypes available with in a few weeks, or so they say. The numbers they were getting were 220 h/p at the wheels and about 180-190 in tq though not sure what part of the RMP range those numbers peak at. Kudos to Pettit for not letting a set back like a cooked tranny become a reason to scrap the whole project.

Sorry to be negative here...

To drop a clutch at 5,000rpm is not unusual. If the gearbox failed in that scenario, then the gearboxes simply aren't strong enough to handle more power. Which is a pity, the FD RX-7 gearbox is very strong in that case - they can cope with a lot more abuse than that.

Please keep us informed of their findings, hopefully it doesn't mean that if you want to put more power through it you have to change the gearbox also - will end up being a VERY expensive power upgrade.

Thanks for the update and clarification Vivid..........

In regard to the Pettit car, the idiot was from Motortrend and the car is back together again. I drove the car while under development and it should be great. Since I drove it they added larger injectors and finished the fuel maping. My order is already placed and hope to have it installed and on the track at Morosso by September 4th NASA event.

So how do we go about ordering this kit? And where can we go to get more information on this? Maybe a link or something like a phone number?

[QUOTE=rx-8club.co.uk]... If the gearbox failed in that scenario, then the gearboxes simply aren't strong enough to handle more power... QUOTE] So, is this because the RX-8 gearbox is the same as in the Miata? Any hopes for a beefier 6 speed? What alternative trannys are available? At what cost and degree of mods?

Punisher:

I don't think they are selling the units yet, but you may want to get on a list if they have one. Talk to Tyler. Tel number is 561-844-2258. It may be answered as Excellent Performance. This is one of Pettit's companies.

Thanks for the info...........

Did Pettit Racing harden any of the gears or transmission internals, or was it a straight RX-8 transmission?

A soft but strong clutch would probably help as well.

Tranny was completely stock. The guys at Motortrend blow their tranny with (I think) a 5000+ clutch dump. New tranny was installed and they did all of their testing. I would contact Tyler at Pettit to find out about the results and what their plans are.

I'm sorry, but I have to agree with another person up the thread a bit...if the SC kit is only putting out sub-200 ft/lbs of torgque (its a nice improvement but by no means a torque monster) and a 5K launch cooked it...that's just not good. Hell, I see people giving advice that you have to drop above 4K to get any kind of good launch. Now, that's with the stock motor, so you may not have to do that with the SC, I don't know...but I'm surprised that the tranny is that close to the edge, frankly. I wonder if it could have been subject to some heavy use prior to that?

jds

The numbers they were getting were 220 h/p at the wheels and about 180-190 in tq though not sure what part of the RMP range those numbers peak at. Kudos to Pettit for not letting a set back like a cooked tranny become a reason to scrap the whole project.

Am I the only one who finds these numbers a little disappointing?

Shouldn't they be getting well over 220 hp to the rear wheels with a SC?

what kind of dyno? what did they baseline it at? the increase is more important than the final number.

what kind of dyno? what did they baseline it at? the increase is more important than the final number.

I agree.

And to be honest, I had a brain fart when I posted the above comments. I was thinking 10% loss of hp through the drivetrain, instead of 20%.

Therefore, the dyno could be showing an approximate increase of 30 hp or more at the rear wheels.

As you said, we need to know what the baseline was.

???????????????????

http://www.speedforceracing.com/productsmazda_rx8turbokit.php

http://www.ssr-engineering.com/products_rx8turbo.php

Rotaries and turbos,You've got to love it.The lastest version of Mazdas Renesis 13b supercoupe is the most refined vehicle yet.It has a race car inspired look, great handling and it revs to 10,0000 rpms! Unfortunately, it is lacking the power of the third gen twin-turbo, 13b powerplant. The good news is that there is hope.The Speed Force Racing singe turbo system for the RX-8 is the answer.Now you can have the performance you always wanted out of your RX-8. Turn that anemic performing Renesis motor into a fire-breathing turbocharged Rotary that screams to 10,000 rpms ***Are they paying me when I hit the fuel cut off and the engine goes bone dry??*** with seven psi of intercooled boost.

Now you dont have to worry about being left at the stop light by every econobox that has an intake and exhaust on it.The days of cringing everytime a Mustang or Camaro pulls up and flexes its v-8 muscle are long gone. Now you have something up your sleeve.Now you can show off the power of the rotary motor as you blow a big cloud of smoke on them as you proceed to leave them in the dust.***Is the smoke from broken seals??***If you want more then performance then your prayers have been answered.Now you have the show qaulity looks to match when you pop the hood. Attention to detail is what makes Speed Force Racing better then everyone else ***Better than SSR??***.We care about customers and thier vehicles.This means the products we sell are the best there is and we will not use anything but the finest parts and materials available to the automotive industry.



This tops the BS content of any marketing write up I've read in the past 3 months.

RX8-TX, they are working with SSR to get this kit out but it hasn't been finalized yet. They are still working out some bugs last I heard.

RX8-TX, they are working with SSR to get this kit out but it hasn't been finalized yet. They are still working out some bugs last I heard.

I knew about the cooperation between SSR and them. What I was refering to is the amount of BS they spoutted on the kit's description on their website. Not SSR, but whoever is in charge of marketing and web content at SpeedForceRacing.

Just to hit a few examples: did they manage to remove the fuel cutoff when hitting 9,800 rpms? I understand that marketing will always be marketing. I work for an industry that has the lowest ethical standards of all; however, taking things in context...we are talking about an engine upgrade. Something that is so delicate as a TC Kit should be marketed with exact specifications and realistic specs.

And of course...the "Anemic Renesis motor" comment is...well, still hurting (although it holds truth.)

Again, I am by no means questioning the product quality; nor the time, money and effort put into R&D. I am criticizing the integrity of whoever did that write up. :eek:

I see! I'm waiting till the kit is finalized and tested before I put down my money. When I see numbers and a little time go by without a blow-up I'll be in line though. The write up is a little weak, my wife has her degree in marketing, and probably needs to be cleaned up a lot before the kits are produced in bulk.

At the end of the SSR video demonstrating the :eek: turbo, I saw smoke coming from the turbo. Should I be alarmed?

At the end of the SSR video demonstrating the :eek: turbo, I saw smoke coming from the turbo. Should I be alarmed?

The guy posting under SSR-Engineering said it was cable loom that got in contact with something under the hood and got burnt.

Just to hit a few examples: did they manage to remove the fuel cutoff when hitting 9,800 rpms?

And of course...the "Anemic Renesis motor" comment is...well, still hurting (although it holds truth.)



I hope no one removes the 9800 rpm rev limiter. That's just asking for trouble.

The engine is absolutely not anemic by non turbo rotary standards. Don't bring race engines into this. It is nearly as powerful as the last 13B twin turbo that ran 9 psi of boost and more powerful than the previous 2nd generation turbo engines. Even the low power 4 port engine by 13B nonturbo standards is a step up in the power department. It also does this with 1/10th the emissions of the older engines. Why does everyone expect V8 performance from a rotary without turbos? You can't get it. I really hate seeing people dog the Renesis calling it weak. That is false.

I really hate seeing people dog the Renesis calling it weak. That is false.

Shall we go knock down SpeedForceRacing marketing department's door then? :D

The engine is absolutely not anemic by non turbo rotary standards. Don't bring race engines into this. It is nearly as powerful as the last 13B twin turbo that ran 9 psi of boost and more powerful than the previous 2nd generation turbo engines. Even the low power 4 port engine by 13B nonturbo standards is a step up in the power department. It also does this with 1/10th the emissions of the older engines. Why does everyone expect V8 performance from a rotary without turbos? You can't get it. I really hate seeing people dog the Renesis calling it weak. That is false.

Very well said!

I don't understand some of this bashing either, especially in light of the points made above. I don't see this type of bashing re the motor in the S2000, despite the fact that there are similarities in the motors regarding the need to keep the rpms high before having access to the majority of the power the engine is capable of providing.

Shall we go knock down SpeedForceRacing marketing department's door then? :D


Sure let's do it! I guarantee they can't show me a low emissions non turbo non Renesis rotary engine with this much power. If they say they can, they aren't reputable, not that they are very well known anyways. I also said keep race engines out of this. I am fully aware that peripheral port engines can top 300+ hp. Try driving one on the street.

When you say anemic, what is your frame of reference? It definitely isn't any past nonturbo street legal rotary. You also can't compare it to a turbo rotary although there was only 1 two rotor factory engine that made more power and that was 13B-REW. The 13BT didn't make this much power stock. Higher boost doesn't count.

There is zero logic or credibility in calling it anemic by nonturbo rotary standards.

Just talked with Tim from SFR and Cam from Pettit heres the low down again.again and again.

Tim says, All dyno's are finished and he going to post the dyno's with-in the week, as soon as their WEB GUY can put it together. I said do you promise, he said promise. I'll keep my fingers crossed.. Tim also said the HP figures still well over 300rwhp, he would'nt tell me exactly, wants to keep it a surprise...

It also seems like this Greddy E-Manage will help the vendors tweak more..

Cam from Pettit said about another month, I know I told everyone this before, but don't shoot the messenger. It seems Pettit wants make this as perfect as they can, probably in lite of the article from Motortrend..

One thing I did find interesting was on the SC they were running 9psi boost and at about 6200rpm's when the auxilary's kick in the boost drops to about 7psi and stays there till redline. I asked if anything can be done about this Cam said NO. Cam said it's not like a Turbo that you can control through wastegates.. I know we have some fantastic minds out there guys,

Is'nt there a way to control this to have boost all the way to redline on a SC..

I love the sound of a SC, maybe that's just me but I prefer to have boost to redline, I thought that was half the fun with the Rotaries was the high RPM range. So I'am not to sure about a SC if the boost drops off after 6200rpm. Well that's my update I hope it's all true from the vendors as they told me. Oh before I forget , Thanks Rotarygod I'am still trying to give the RX8 the benefit of the doubt.. Thanks for your help.

Thanks for the update Rotoman...........
By the way, Keith at SSR is telling me the same thing so hopefully it is true.......

I have seen turbo being installed over at the mazdatrix shop. its a greddy turbo kit