P.S. Never shut her off cold. You will flood it and from the sounds of it, you will be bringing it to mazda.

Since I installed the upgraded starter, I haven't had an ounce of trouble with flooding or the hard-to-start issue. I can start it cold, turn it off straight away and start it again and it's grand. Mine is a 2004, maybe installing the upgraded starter is the solution to everyone's problems???

^No, not a 100% solution. The upgraded starter and fresh coils and plugs will be able to start a slightly flooded engine, but it is still best practice to not turn a rotary engine off cold. I've seen the dealer flood an 09 RX8 after he told me it was "unfloodable". It is still possible to flood the engine pretty good.

[QUOTE Every morning I take the car out of the garage, then I turn it off and start it again 2-3 minutes later when I'm ready to leave for work. That's been going on for the 5-6 weeks since I bought the car and it hasn't flooded once. I don't know why people think this is a problem.


BECAUSE IT IS. IF YOU KEEP DOING IT, YOU WILL LIKELY HAVE PROBLEMS.

does engine flooding happen more often in colder weathers? For example, has anyone in socal, az, or florida ever flooded their engines?



florida.
Yup.

Flooding does happen more frequently in colder weather due to the battery losing some power when cold. Using a high CCA battery in cold weather helps a lot.

Shorts trips in general are bad for the RX8. Turning it on, moving it out of your garage, turning it off and then turning it back on must be killing your engine slowly. Why not just turn it on when you are ready to leave? Seems silly to move it and then get back in it 2-3 minutes later.

One thing to add. After a Flood, follow the procedure here.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=169443&highlight=ecu+reset

Everything that goes on in the flood, clear, start, barf crap out exhaust, limp along until cleared, can confuse the heck out of the ECU and car will not run quite right. This will solve.

Thank you Teknics.

[QUOTE Every morning I take the car out of the garage, then I turn it off and start it again 2-3 minutes later when I'm ready to leave for work. That's been going on for the 5-6 weeks since I bought the car and it hasn't flooded once. I don't know why people think this is a problem.


BECAUSE IT IS. IF YOU KEEP DOING IT, YOU WILL LIKELY HAVE PROBLEMS.
The problem is not actually flooding - apparently it's the excess petrol dissolving the oil in the seals. This probably takes some time. You're more likely to see the problem if you park the car outside the garage, and let the engine go cold. Then move it into the garage, with the engine running for about a minute. Next morning you're stonkered.

Well, I am in the same boat now. I just acquired a 2004 flooded RX8 with 155000 miles.
I can't believe how many posts/pages on this topic.

I am doing more research/reading right now...but if someone would like to take the time to answer these questions I would appreciate:

-I remove the spark plugs and the top ones (T) are the ones that are flooded.
The bottom ones (L) were pretty dry. Any reason for that?

-After I cleaned/dried and reinstalled the spark plugs, they get wet right away when I try to start the car. It's like the entire housing is filled with fuel...any reason for that?

thanks...

-After I cleaned/dried and reinstalled the spark plugs, they get wet right away when I try to start the car. It's like the entire housing is filled with fuel...any reason for that?

Flooding is more than wet spark plugs, it's when liquid fuel gets trapped in the combustion chambers. Also remember you have 3 such chambers per rotor. The trick is to expel the excess fuel from all 3 chambers on both rotors, then dry the plugs, then start the car.

Beyond wet plugs, there may also be an issue with the trapped fuel causing the apex seals to not-seal, thus not getting any combustion chamber compression.

Flooding is more than wet spark plugs, it's when liquid fuel gets trapped in the combustion chambers. Also remember you have 3 such chambers per rotor. The trick is to expel the excess fuel from all 3 chambers on both rotors, then dry the plugs, then start the car.

Beyond wet plugs, there may also be an issue with the trapped fuel causing the apex seals to not-seal, thus not getting any combustion chamber compression.

thanks

to properly expel the fuel, can I just remove all 4 spark plugs and crank the engine?
Is there any potential damage?

sorry for the basic question, I am new to rotary engine and I want to make sure I don't screw up something.

nah just set it on fire that should clear everything up lol what you do before that idk how bad your engine is flooded but take out the fuel pump fuzes crank the engine for about 30sec then put the fuzes back in and crank it up i would recommend using jumper cables or a jump pack thats what i do works every time

crank the engine for about 30sec

You should never crank the starter for more than 10sec... especially 30sec.
And there is one fuel fuse (not fuzes).
What about disconnecting the e-shaft sensor to disable the ignition?

freind did it for me thanks for correcting me dident mean to give bad advice no longer will have that problem tho car is in the shop getting a fresh rman installed .......

See attached Mazda Service Bulletin for de-flooding an RX-8.

Here in Kansas it has gotten to 10 below this winter and no flooding. It hasnt even flooded when I learned how to drive a stick and stalled it a couple times. It seems like a very quirky thing....

holy shiznit 10 below thats north face weather

yeah kc has had a arctic freeze since Christmas snow on the ground since then. Finally gone this week.

Well, I am in the same boat now. I just acquired a 2004 flooded RX8 with 155000 miles.
I can't believe how many posts/pages on this topic.

I am doing more research/reading right now...but if someone would like to take the time to answer these questions I would appreciate:

-I remove the spark plugs and the top ones (T) are the ones that are flooded.
The bottom ones (L) were pretty dry. Any reason for that?

-After I cleaned/dried and reinstalled the spark plugs, they get wet right away when I try to start the car. It's like the entire housing is filled with fuel...any reason for that?

thanks...


I've got a 2004 too and since I had the same problems you're having, all dealers were saying to try a hotter plug. Another one was take them out, heat them etc. As far as I could see it would work for the next start but it was a bullshit fob off!

The 2004 starter motor (Mazda part No. N3H1) isn't able to spin the engine fast enough in order to ignite the input fuel properly. This leads to the chambers being full of fuel.

Get yourself an upgraded starter motor (Mazda Part No. N3Z1) and your problems will be solved. This upgraded motor spins the engine 100RPM faster than the old one. I got one and I've never had any problems since. Starts first turn of the key every time no matter what.

i recently joined the flooded club because of a failing battery

I've got a 2004 too and since I had the same problems you're having, all dealers were saying to try a hotter plug. Another one was take them out, heat them etc. As far as I could see it would work for the next start but it was a bullshit fob off!

The 2004 starter motor (Mazda part No. N3H1) isn't able to spin the engine fast enough in order to ignite the input fuel properly. This leads to the chambers being full of fuel.

Get yourself an upgraded starter motor (Mazda Part No. N3Z1) and your problems will be solved. This upgraded motor spins the engine 100RPM faster than the old one. I got one and I've never had any problems since. Starts first turn of the key every time no matter what.

Thanks I will do that. In the meantime, I am going to try the following:

-Disconnect the e-shaft sensor
-Remove the fuel pump fuse (the yellow 20A)
-Remove all 4 plugs
-Connect the battery to my 4Runner
-Crank it
-Clean the spark plugs
-Put them back
-Put the fuse back
-Reconnect the e-shaft sensor
-Crank it.

Hope for the best.

It almost started yesterday but I suspect with 155000 miles the engine is pretty tired which does not help.
-Reconnect the e-shaft sensor

well still no luck. It came really close to starting a couple time since yesterday but not enough to keep going.

It looks like I have the updated starter.

I inherited of the car from my wife's aunt so I don't have much info on history.

She said the engine was making some strange noise and it looks like it was misfired.

I wish I had the right tool to check the compression here.
I am also wondering if changing the oil would help or if it's a waste of money.

Sounds like you could have a compression issue. You should take it to either Mazda or your local garage and get a compression test done.

Also it would be a good idea to decarb the engine. Info on this here:

http://www.rotaryheaven.net/showthread.php?44-Engine-decarb

Best of luck and I hope you get it running as soon as possible.

just take it to a mazda dealer tell them your car has a hard start and you feel a loss of power ask for a compression test... thats what i did and i really had a compression issue so they gave me the reman and installed a new clutch with no labor cost. make sure the problem isant your battery or starter tho if you have a compression issue trust me u will know

Has anyone tried running a lower octane fuel. I think that in cold weather the high test gas just doesn't ignite well enough. Since getting my sons running again, he has been using 89 octane. He says it runs better and the fuel mileage is MUCH better.

Ok...I am new to owning an RX8. My wife owned it before we met and of course I thought, "any woman that owns an RX8 has to be cool!" So, I introduced myself to her and here we are...fixing her RX8!
Coil packs gone bad (102,000 miles) so I always start with new wires first - $95 from the dealer, found for $85 at another dealer. Looked on line, WOW - $25, but not in stock for three weeks! Bought from dealer (OUCH:mad:) for $85. Wires didn't do the trick so off to the coil packs - $300+ from dealer, not this time! Ordered on line from California - $175 (Mazda original boxes and all). Tried to drive it before I got the coil packs in...big mistake! Flooded the freaking engine :banghead: because I didn't warm it up - running very bad! So, get the coil packs in and install in 30 minutes (now that I know how to take it all apart to get in there). I'm stoked...can't wait to crank the girl - NOPE:rant:!! Sun of a mother loving....CRAP! This piece of Ford crap! I am ticked...so, I look on line at blogs "how to deflood" after Mazda tells me to take the plugs out and "blow out the excess gas" bull crap - doesn't work!!! The whole, take the fuel pump fuse out crap...NOPE, doesn't work. Then, my lovely wife looks on line and finds "washer fluid"....really!?? So, I pull the rubber caps off the "maintenance ports" on the intake (qty 2). Inject 10 CC of Mazda washer fluid in each port. NOPE, didn't work!! So read a thread on the same blog and someone mentioned oil because loss of compression is the reason it won't fire! Piston engines don't even think of such a thing - ether maybe! Ok, so I am at wits end and willing to try anything..I inject 10 cc of oil in each port. Surprise...she fires but doesn't stay running. SO I GO TO 30 CC IN EACH PORT!!! OH YEAHHHHH!!!!!!! SHE FIRES AND SMOKES THE WHOLE GARAGE AND DRIVEWAY UP, BUT SHE IS RUNNING!!!! BACK HER OUT AND TAKE HER FOR A LONG SPIN AROUND THE BLOCKS....BACK IN BUSINESS!! This is the only thing I have found to work flawlessly!! I might package this kit and sell it with 100 cc of oil (40 cc to spare) and guarantee it works!

thanks

to properly expel the fuel, can I just remove all 4 spark plugs and crank the engine?
Is there any potential damage?

sorry for the basic question, I am new to rotary engine and I want to make sure I don't screw up something.
Inject oil in the maintenance ports on the intake. 30 cc of new oil will seal the rotors and provide compression. I just did it on my wife's 2004, MT. It is the only thing that worked. Taking the plugs out doesn't work!! Tried it and never worked for me - besides, injecting the oil is easy. Just remove the washer fluid reservoir (2 bolts), unplug connector and hose. Two rubber caps on small 1/8" long "tits". Put tubing on each port (2-3 feet long) then get a 30cc plastic syringe or 10 cc syringe and add 30 cc of oil (5W-20 is what I used) into the intake. Fire the girl up!! It worked for me yesterday! Tried everything!

Thanks I will do that. In the meantime, I am going to try the following:

-Disconnect the e-shaft sensor
-Remove the fuel pump fuse (the yellow 20A)
-Remove all 4 plugs
-Connect the battery to my 4Runner
-Crank it
-Clean the spark plugs
-Put them back
-Put the fuse back
-Reconnect the e-shaft sensor
-Crank it.

Hope for the best.

It almost started yesterday but I suspect with 155000 miles the engine is pretty tired which does not help.
-Reconnect the e-shaft sensor
Look at my post about injecting oil in the intake. I haven't posted pictures, but I can talk you through it. The oil works...everything else is BS!!! Been there...done that!

well still no luck. It came really close to starting a couple time since yesterday but not enough to keep going.

It looks like I have the updated starter.

I inherited of the car from my wife's aunt so I don't have much info on history.

She said the engine was making some strange noise and it looks like it was misfired.

I wish I had the right tool to check the compression here.
I am also wondering if changing the oil would help or if it's a waste of money.
Coil packs and wires - $300 bucks on line (don't buy from the dealer).

Let me know how it goes. Plugs should be OK. The hotter plug remarks are stupid! Iridium plugs (standard on RX8's) are the best on the market and NGK is top of the line Japanese plug.

Look at my post about injecting oil in the intake. I haven't posted pictures, but I can talk you through it. The oil works...everything else is BS!!! Been there...done that!

I'm sorry to burst your bubble. If you performed the correct deflooding procedure(disconnect eccentric shaft position sensor and secondary air pump sensor, remove spark plugs and dry/clean, crank engine to remove all excess fluids yada yada) and it did not work, you either A) Did it wrong or B) have a low compressions engine that is going to die. Hell, you should have been able to tow start it with no problem.

no more flooding problems for me hopefully got my new reman installed gonna go pick up the rx8 today if your car keeps flooding i suggest a compression test good luck !!

Inject oil in the maintenance ports on the intake. 30 cc of new oil will seal the rotors and provide compression. I just did it on my wife's 2004, MT. It is the only thing that worked. Taking the plugs out doesn't work!! Tried it and never worked for me - besides, injecting the oil is easy. Just remove the washer fluid reservoir (2 bolts), unplug connector and hose. Two rubber caps on small 1/8" long "tits". Put tubing on each port (2-3 feet long) then get a 30cc plastic syringe or 10 cc syringe and add 30 cc of oil (5W-20 is what I used) into the intake. Fire the girl up!! It worked for me yesterday! Tried everything!

I will try the same thing. I suspect my engine is tired (low compression) but it should still start.

Also I have new wires but not the coil. Is there anyway to test them?

i am not so sure about testing the coils but that is something you should change including the spark plugs and wires.....if you feel like your car has a hard start i would say an 80% chance that it has low compression and you can get a new engine but make sure it is not your battery starter first ..dont want to pay for a compression test

battery, starter, coils, spark plugs and wires

These things are usually the main culprit to most problems. The dealer will almost always want to change your plugs and coils to see if that is the issue. If you have not done so, I would go ahead and change them. It may fix your problem or it may save you $600<-- Dealer price to replace them. You can buy the parts for about $180.

definatly do it yourself i paid around 600 for all that at the dealership my engine got flooded after that and i did it all myself spent about 200 worth it tho

So same thing just happened to me yesterday. Turned the thing off cold by accident and it wouldent restart. I knew my coil packs were going bad as it had been starting alittle hard. so bought new coil packs today and then decided to change the plugs too. when changing them found that some dumb ass at the dealer last time the plugs were changed put the trailing in the leading and vice versa. So long story short i have 104K on her and tried every flooding tecnique except the oil int he intake thing, I think shes done! any thoughts?

I should probably try the oil thing and if that doesent work then i guess i should do a comp check.

i have a thought for you if the plugs were done this way at the dealer sue thier ass take pics and demand that they do something to fix it put the blame on them somehow if you can and hopefully they will give you a reman or something but i am pretty sure your car isant screwd there are many things that could have got flooded mayb take it to the same dealer and have them clean it ...for free cuz they messed up i flooded my enine so bad last time they said that it was the worst case of flooding they had ever seen there was gas everywhere but they still managed to fix it

long story short, the oil did the trick. pumped some oil into the intake ports 30cc's and it wouldn't go. then it lost compression and i did it again. and she started, holly crap the smoke that filled the parking garage, the people in my condo NOT HAPPY i can tell you. But she is up and running. new plugs wires and coils and it starts like a dream now.

At first it took a couples of secods to start the car now it would not start at all even when cranking it for a couple of seconds. At first i thought it eas the sparkglugs so i replaced it . Srill the same. Then i checked the cgarge of the battery it still wasnt it. What could be the probl? Is it flooded and how do i fix that? Any help
would be appreciated .

hard start most likey is a low compression problem and you get a free new engine for that ..... i have heard that an upgraded starter for the rx8 does the trick... mayb taking your car to your local shop is the best thing to do

Is flooding an issue on newer rx-8 models say 2007 & up? or is it just the earlier models like '04 & '05?

Is flooding an issue on newer rx-8 models say 2007 & up? or is it just the earlier models like '04 & '05?

The answer is yes, it is an issue for all RX-8s.

While 2006 and later models have all the improvements (retrofitted to 2004/2005s) for dealing with flooding, the basic issue of shutting down the engine before it has warmed up still has a flooding risk.

The 2010 owners manual carries the warning:

Short Trip Driving: In order to improve engine starting performance on restart, DO NOT turn off a cold engine until one or more of the variable red zones in tachometer have turned off. Warm the engine until the first indicator of the variable red zone goes off.

I believe the term "improve engine starting performance" is a euphemism for "flooding".

Hello all.. I have a 2006 rx-8 sport. Black on black...VERY NICE. i have 90112 miles on it and i bought it when it had 10000. No problems up to now. When i start it i get a cloud of white smoke. It eventually goes away but when i am idle the engine stutters. if i let it idle too long it dies. I recently has it looked at and according to the computer it reads a misfire. The only things that i have not done is a fuel injection cleaning and changed out the spark-plug wires.
I did its recent oil change last week and this kinda just appeared. any idea?

I recently left my RX8 standing in secure parking for a month or so. When I returned to it, the battery was dead. I called recovery to jump it, and we discovered that it was also flooded. The following day, I restarted it using this method.

1. Hooked it up to a friends car with jump leads.
2. Turned it over without accelerator depressed (for a few secs)
3. Turned it over it with accelerator fully depressed (for a few secs)

I alternated steps 2 & 3 for about 10 minutes with the fuel pump fuse removed, and then for another half an hour with the fuse back in place, before it finally spluttered into life in a cloud of white smoke.

I have a 2008 Mazda GrandTouring. I baby the hell out of my car. Shes my baby girl!

Last night (1am) after putting in gas she wouldn't start up again! "GREAT!!!" I thought "Not Again" I had to push her back to my house with help from my amazing friends.

I woke up this morning thinking I had to call the dealership to get her towed, when all of a sudden...."ZOOM ZOOM" she cracked right up. A little slower than the usual but she started.

Now MY QUESTION!!!!!

Now whats the best way to burn out w/e little gas is in the engine? I have my car right now sitting in my driveway just running. I figured i would just leave it out there for the next 20min just running. Now is this a good way to vaporize w/e gas is in there, or im i just wasting my time.

What would be the best alternative is recommended when i think it might be flooding aside from taking it to the dealership.

Thank you. I greatly appreciate the feedback

http://www.flickr.com/photos/specialklo/4494951192/

I have a 2008 Mazda GrandTouring. I baby the hell out of my car. Shes my baby girl!

Last night (1am) after putting in gas she wouldn't start up again! "GREAT!!!" I thought "Not Again" I had to push her back to my house with help from my amazing friends.

I woke up this morning thinking I had to call the dealership to get her towed, when all of a sudden...."ZOOM ZOOM" she cracked right up. A little slower than the usual but she started.

Now MY QUESTION!!!!!

Now whats the best way to burn out w/e little gas is in the engine? I have my car right now sitting in my driveway just running. I figured i would just leave it out there for the next 20min just running. Now is this a good way to vaporize w/e gas is in there, or im i just wasting my time.

What would be the best alternative is recommended when i think it might be flooding aside from taking it to the dealership.

Thank you. I greatly appreciate the feedback

http://www.flickr.com/photos/specialklo/4494951192/I suggest you just take for a short drive. When it's up to temperature, give it a few good bursts (eg 10 seconds each) at over 6,000 RPM. If you only do short trips, you need an occasional long run. As for being your "baby girl", forget it. These cars want to be treated like a wild woman. It likes to run at high revs, and pushed a bit. You don't do it any favours if you travel at 50kph in 6th gear.

Thank you James, I appreciate the feedback.

Well, add me to the list of those having experienced a truly flooded engine. After five and one half years, it finally happened. And, it was my fault. I've been tempting fate for years.

Last Saturday, I pulled my 8 out of the garage to wash it. After the wash, I pulled it back into the garage - no warm up what-so-ever. The car sat until Monday morning. Jumped in to go to work and between the cold shut down on Saturday and the 5.5 year old somewhat weak battery, it flooded. And I mean, it flooded big-time. I could see and smell fumes at the tail-pipes.

It took me almost 6 hours to get the thing running again. Here's what I did:

Got out my nearly-new, well maintained (charged) RV battery (yeah, I know RV batteries are not the best choice for starting cars) and my jumper cables. Next, I pulled the fuel pump fuse. I limited cranking time to 2 minutes every 30 to 45 minutes. When I could no longer smell strong fumes at the tail pipe, I plugged the fuse back in. The engine cranked for about 3 seconds, hit, and then went back to that dreadful cranking. So, I pulled the fuse again and did the cranking procedure a few more times until the exhaust smelled fairly clean. Put the fuse back in again and viola, it hit after a couple of seconds and ran great.

I took the car for a 30 minute drive and also hit the engine redline a few times. Runs fine now. Lesson learned.

Oh yeah, I put my battery charger on the RV battery during the 30 to 45 minute intervals between cranking.

Man, I don't want to do this again!

-1.3L

Hello,
Im new to the site and relatively new to being a rotory owner. Had I known it would be such an issue.. I woulda considered getting something else instead. At first I figured my flooding problems were much the same as anyone elses... However I did a compression test while priming the engine w oil, (90psi front, 75psi rear).. Assuming I did the test correctly. I did disable fuel by flooring gas peddle opening throttle to trigger fuel cut. After cleaning (newer) plugs (recently replaced from previous flood) I started the engine. With a roar it stumbled to life for a moment only to stall again w a puff of smoke. Removing the plugs rear plug had typical light fuel coverage... Pulling the front Leading plug, the socket began draining a fuel/oil like black liquid. The engine was fired again and again to see the same result. It seems like maybe I have a leaking injector? I'm also throwing a code for a (small) evac leak.. I know what your thinking,, system compensating for air leak causing flooding condition.. Ok but why is it only one port seems to be affected.. and wouldnt it take a larger leak 2 cause such a diverse effect? A friend also mentioned fuel pressure regulator.. Ok but if that was the problem once again.. that would affect all injectors.. I'm at a loss.. This car seemed cherry,, a good price w low miles.. Seems like if my compression test was accurate (may not be) then it was too good to be true... I'm thinking about just checking the injectors myself but beyond an ohm test I'm not sure how to asses if its leaking or not. Any help would be great, and seeing as how problematic these great engines are I'll probably be very involved w the forums 2 avoid cutting my losses w a for sale sign after pushing it to the end of the driveway.......

How often does the car flood? I had a couple of instances of flooding early on, but it hasn't happened in 3 or 4 years. Always rev the engine to 3~4K, and shut it off while the rev's are dropping. I've never had a flooding instance since I started this procedure. The stock coils are prone to failure, usually around 35~60K. If they are weak you may have problems starting the car, or for that matter keeping it running. A leaking injector would be a fluke, not saying impossible but not a common problem. The code for evac leak is pretty common, that is the damned sensor more often than not. Seems to be a Mazda problem because our 3 (35K) is due for a second replacement sensor, my 8 (82K) has had two so far and needs a third.

I see, I see.. My concern is the abundence of fuel comming out the first bank, as the second one appears to only be damp w fuel. Did your 8 do the same thing? Id understand both ports doing the same thing, so I can't make sense of what is happening. What sensor should I replace specifically on the evap system? Dang... I should really give forums a thorough look on the car I want before I buy.. These cars are way to problematic.. I don't have time for this crap.

I'm no expert on the rotary, I'm just a satisfied customer.
I wouldn't consider my 8 problematic. The car is unique, but once you are aware of the idiosyncrasies it is as reliable as any other car, imo. The evap sensor is somewhere under the rear window in front of the trunk If I remember correctly. A shop manual would help you find it. A bad gas cap (or a loose gas cap) will throw the same code. These sensors suck, I'm on my second in my Nissan Xterra, and my son's Honda Civic is so sensitive to the gas cap that it throws the code at least once a month. Maybe it is a Florida thing...

I can't tell you why so much fuel is pouring out of your second bank, I'm not even sure what you mean by bank! Do you mean the second rotor housing?

Yeah the second rotor housing.. I don't know what "bank" it would be but its the forward chamber. I"d like to find a shop manual, in fact I probably need one.. Figured out a possible way to check for leaking injectors, I just need to find out if the fuel rail stays pressurized when engine is off. The fuel rail might have a bung to hook up a fuel gauge.. So hopefully I can check that without taking off the entire upper intake. I hope your right about the rx8's. Don't get me wrong, i've been very impressed with the car but simple issues like this is something mazda needed to address. Seems like a shop manual a necessity so I'll see what I can do on that.
Thanks for the help.

Sweet.. don't know what was different about today.... Cleaned the plugs, oiled combustion chambers, cycled, and she fired right up.. All seems well even though I did subscribe to alldata.. Who knows.. maybe I'll need it in the future.... :ylsuper:

Can someone help me please. My engine flooded I started it to move into the garage then quickly shut it off. Next day heading to school engine wont fire. Tried the flood procedure didnt work so went ahead and did a pull. Now im not sure if its in my head but the car seems abit slower...

Question is, If i left my car with a flooded engine for a day is that bad for my sparkplugs?
2nd question if I keep driving it with faughty plugs is it bad for the car or will it cure the plugs?
3rd question is How do i know if My plugs have gotten bad? does it idle higher or lower?

Hi
I had the same problem... my big boots pressed the gas peddal a couple of times and it wouldnt start that day .. the next day it did .. lots of smoke kame out the muffler.. and it also seemed that it was slower than before... but after a couple of days of driving it came back to normal... Im guessing untill it burned out what ever was left in it...

2: if your sparkplugs aren't working well you will notice because they wont fire properly... and you will notice this when you give it gas it wont pull and you will feel the jump when it does...

I would say keep driving for a couple of days before going to the shop and wasting hundreds on chekc ups .. AND really really avoid giving it too much gas.... just in case your sparks aren't working ..and if the sparks dont fire.. you will flood the engine ....

CONCLUSION: go steady for 3 to 4 days

Hope it works out for you buddy :)

^... also keep in mind that the ECU needs to relearn fuel trims regardless of how they were affected. Performance may be off until this is accomplished, post a few cycles.

does engine flooding happen more often in colder weathers? For example, has anyone in socal, az, or florida ever flooded their engines?
Only ever lived in NorCal and Arizona. Flooded the engine several times. And as the car ages, it seems that the engine temperature means less. Here's how the current flood happened: my wife drove the car from work to home. About a 15 minute drive in 95+ degree weather. She changed her clothes and then drove to a friends house about a mile away. Normally, a mile drive would not flood the car, even cold. Especially in 95 degree weather. Even moreso when the car was just driven for 15 minutes. Still flooded, though.

^... also keep in mind that the ECU needs to relearn fuel trims regardless of how they were affected. Performance may be off until this is accomplished, post a few cycles.


Its weird my engine loses power for .2 of a second at 7rpm then spins back normally again up to 9.5rpm. This is the ECU?

I have a 2009 RX8 with 27,000 miles and is an automatic. In may the check engine light came on after it started. I drove to work and when I started it to go to lunch, it was still coming on. I took it to the New Orleans Mazda dealer and they kept it overnight. They told me the code was for the intake and they got updates from Mazda and reflashed the computer. They could not say what the code meant. After that, it started taking longer to start and when it started, it stumbled like it had a fouled plug. I took it back and they said that it is normal on these engines. I told him he was nuts and that it never acted like that before. Well, I installed a higher cranking amp battery because the old one did not turn it over like I thought it should. This month, the check engine light came on again and I took it to the Hammond, La Mazda dealer. He checked it and said that I have a fuel injector leaking by causing the engine to slightly flood and stumble on startup. I set up an appointment and took it home. Before I shut the engine off I decided to pull the fuel pump fuse and let the engine die, I then turned the key off and put the fuse back in. I started the car up and this time the car started right away like it used to. They pulled and replaced both leaking injectors and it's back to normal. It pays to find a good mechanic. Anyone looking for a red 2009 rx8 automatic with 28,000 miles on it. I think 27000 miles is a little soon to have a problem like this. I'm going to my toyota dealer this week.

I think 27000 miles is a little soon to have a problem like this. I'm going to my toyota dealer this week. Why would you want a Toyota dealer?

I've had my RX8 for about 6 years. I've had two starting problems, but not since I never turned it off before it was warm, and hit 6,000 RPM. Otherwise, zero problems. Any new car can have a problem - it's a matter of luck. Leaky fuel injector could have been caused by dirt in the petrol - who knows.

I think 27000 miles is a little soon to have a problem like this. I'm going to my toyota dealer this week.

And since a single vehicle is the entirety of an automaker's reputation and quality measure, I might be able to track down my 2002 Corolla, which blew it's engine from internal oil sprayers failing, perhaps you would be interested in that?

My 8's engine has outlasted my Corolla's engine.



They fixed it for you, under warranty. That being said, if that really scared you about the car, you probably should move to something else that you can ignore...

It seems to be an issue for all units pre-2008. Should have been a recall for faulty engineering since it is just a problem of not enough torque from the original starter, thus the flooding. Replace the starter with one that is 2008 and newer -- starting is OK.

It seems to be an issue for all units pre-2008. Should have been a recall for faulty engineering since it is just a problem of not enough torque from the original starter, thus the flooding. Replace the starter with one that is 2008 and newer -- starting is OK.

Thanks for the insight. But please get your facts straight :)

The starter in the 2008 is the same that was installed OEM in 8s built after sometime in 2005. Only 2004s and early 2005s had the weak starter.



Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system. The problem is, your ignition system usually fails very slowly, so it is a gradual decline. The alert and responsible owner will detect the drop in mileage, the drop in power, the rougher idle, the occasional misfire, and replace their coils, plugs, and wires before it gets bad enough where there is a chance at flooding.

Every single flood I have seen reported for the past year or so ended up coming down to a failing or failed coil or spark plug or spark plug wire. But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($50-140, depending on quality, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.

You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.

It seems to be an issue for all units pre-2008. Should have been a recall for faulty engineering since it is just a problem of not enough torque from the original starter, thus the flooding. Replace the starter with one that is 2008 and newer -- starting is OK.

Two points:

1. FWIW, 2009 and later RX-8s (Series II) still carry the owner's manual warning about not shutting down the RENESIS cold. I would assume they would not include the warning if there were not an issue. OTOH I'm not sure I have seen a post about a Series II RX-8 flooding.

2. Series I RX-8 engines built after Spring 2005 all have the "flooding" updates included (updated PCM firmware, battery, plugs and starter). Earlier cars probably have been updated under the "Engine cranks No Start" Service Bulletin. Regardless, based on info in this thread, 2008 and earlier engines with updates are still prone to flooding if shut down before the engine is warmed up although they are much less likely to flood than the early 2004/2005s. However, the service bulletin does contains a customer warning about cold shutdown continuing to potentially cause a flood. Again, FWIW.

I had two flooding incidents after a long drive years ago. The cause was never officially found (I suspect the coils were the problem). The Mazda tech told be to rev the car to 3~4k the turning the key off. I do this procedure almost every time I drive the car and have never had a problem since.

^ Revving to 3k and holding for 10 seconds prior to shutdown is a good preventive measure if you have to move the vehicle cold, but unnecessary after warmup (unless you also have the low compression "starts hard when warm" issue). That sustained rev followed by a quick turn off as the motor is spooling down helps to clear out the excess cold-start fuel, which is of course the root cause of flooding.

The mid-2005 build year and on starter, plus a solid total ignition system (battery, coils, cables and 'plugs) generally obviates flooding - I've never done so. 'course a BHR ignition system provides even more reliability.

janwillem - as a noobie here we can all understand your desire to participate, but please don't spread mis-information. Strike one on your "street cred." And btw, it's not starter torque but rotational speed that's relevant in this case. All electric motors have 100% torque at rest and as long as there's sufficient battery amperage to overcome the "locked rotor" rating of the motor's winding it will achieve its purpose. The newer starter spins faster and therefore rotates the flywheel faster, better overcoming the excess fuel condition.

Well after reading some of these I'm sure my engine is flooded and I have a question I'm gonna take my car to the dealer but I have a aem intake and a hks exhaust warranty will still cover right?

I'm finally picking up my new 8 tomorrow. 2004 Touring. My question is, is there a particular part number on the starter housing that I can reference to see if it is, in fact, the stronger, newer starter?

And also, if I were to take my car to my local Mazda, would they have a way of providing me with a detailed history of every Mazda service bulletin that the car has had completed? I'm definitely not gonna let a problem like this stop me from buying this car, but I definitely don't want to have to find out the hard way how irritating the flooding problem is.

Thanks for all the insight in this thread guys and girls I'll be taking the warm-up procedures to heart to prevent this nuisance.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=202454

Flooding:
Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system. The problem is, your ignition system usually fails very slowly, so it is a gradual decline. The alert and responsible owner will detect the drop in mileage, the drop in power, the rougher idle, the occasional misfire, and replace their coils, plugs, and wires before it gets bad enough where there is a chance at flooding.

Every single flood I have seen reported for quite a while ended up coming down to one of these failing: Battery, Starter, Coil(s), Plug Wire(s), Plug(s). But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($60, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.

You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.

I have an 04' manual and when I try to start it up it takes probably 1-2 seconds of turning and holding the key all the way, to fully Turn on. And my engine check light is on, and one day, only one day the car actually turned off while I was driving? And twice when I was stopped. And that scared me, it's around 750 rpms when stopped and sometimes sounds like it's gonna turn off. They guy at the shop said all of that is caused by me not warming my car up before I drive. Is this true? Because I let it warm up for probably 2 minutes and it still had the engine check light on.

They guy at the shop said all of that is caused by me not warming my car up before I drive.

IMHO, this is bull!

First, the "flooding" issue is exacerbated by turning the engine OFF while it is still cold, not driving the car before it has warmed up. In fact, I believe there is no issue about warming the car up before you drive other than the common sense one with any car, which is to avoid thrashing it until you reach normal operating temperature. There is no problem with starting the car and then immediately starting to drive normally.

What you describe sounds more like some kind of ignition problem ... bad plugs, wires, coils or all the above. Rather than guessing, go to a shop like Pep Boys and have them read up the code causing the CEL. That will give you information about the problem.

And find someone other than "the guy at the shop" to work on your car.

Haha alright thanks

It has to do with the auto choke. If you can't get it restarted, they have to run hydraulic fluid through the fuel lines to clean it out... about an hour of labor @ dealership... However, you can avoid it for quick starts before she warms up by either following procedure in manual (revving up to 3 grand for 10 sec) or by revving up by a quick press up to about 6 grand and shutting engine off before returning to idle...

Auto choke?

Hydraulic what thru the where?

Wow.....

Auto choke?

Hydraulic what thru the where?

Wow.....

I heard they had to run gasoline through the air conditioner lines to clear that up. Works every time (except when it doesn't)

Lesnman, don't be surprised that the problem appears to be so bad. In a forum like this the magnitude of problems tends to get magnified. Think of it like this: Would you expect someone to start a thread entitled "Hey, My Car Didn't Flood!?"

Of course not. So, if there are 1000's of participants in the forum and a few people report this, it looks like a big deal. Those who cars also flooded will jump on and say "Me too!" Those who's cars didn't flood aren't as interested in the thread, so they go to the next thread called "How to pickup chix in a '8."

For this reason, I'd say even the 8 percent currently showing in the poll is high. Everyone who had a flooded car who saw this poll will respond; they want to the world to know their woes. Of those who saw the poll without flooded cars, only some respond and other just passed it by. I wouldn't be a bit surprised in a scientific study if the number were closer to 2 percent.

This is a social phenonmenon that happens in any survey where the audience is self-selected. Those not interested in the topic don't respond, so they appear to be a smaller population than they really are.

because you wrote this, I will enter my vote. A non-flooder.

really hoping that mine flooded cuz i belive thats an easy fix but.......ill take some opinions please..here is my story,,,,we had a cold front come in temp went from about 50 degrees then the next day it was about 35, I went out to move my rx8 so someone could get in my driveway, it started fine and i shut it right off after the 15 foot move, which i have bin reading is a no no. about an hour later i went to get in it again and it fired right up normally then killed right away ever since that cant get it started? any ideas hoping its an easy fix!!

really hoping that mine flooded cuz i belive thats an easy fix but.......ill take some opinions please..here is my story,,,,we had a cold front come in temp went from about 50 degrees then the next day it was about 35, I went out to move my rx8 so someone could get in my driveway, it started fine and i shut it right off after the 15 foot move, which i have bin reading is a no no. about an hour later i went to get in it again and it fired right up normally then killed right away ever since that cant get it started? any ideas hoping its an easy fix!!Firstly, I hope those temperatures are in Farenheit!! I didn't think anyone used this any more.

You've done exactly the wrong thing with the car. A short start then turned it off. To make matters worse, you did the same thing again. Therefore, it's had a double dose of fuel rich mixture. This petrol has remained in the cylinders and dissolved and removed the oil around the seals. After a short start, rev to at least 6,000 rpm for 10 seconds, and get it up to a reasonable temperature (though I find just the revs seems enough)

There are many ways described here previously to get it going, so read back. A tow start is probably a good option if possible. Otherwise, pull the fuse on the petrol pump, get a jump lead connected to another running car so you have plenty of power, and do lots of starter motor turnovers - you might even see smoke coming off the starter motor. Then pop the fuse back in and try again. I've spent an hour doing this before it started with lots of smoke. Good luck.

Does anyone know the steps to unflooding the RX 8 on your own. Please reply

Yup, here you go: Deflooding (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Arx8club.com+DIY+Deflooding)

I voted "YES", although technically I didn't flood it, a friend did. I've owned a 2004 RX-8 (MT) for 2.5 years now, and it hadn't been flooded once... then one day I lend it to a friend, it gets flooded. SOOOOOOOO, I felt compelled to add my input here.

I was only annoyed for about 60 seconds. Many people visit these boards and complain about the RENESIS engine, and its faults (mainly flooding). Do these same people also reprimand a dog who leaves a mess inside the house, knowing darn well that he didn't let the dog outside to use the restroom for an extended period of time? It's not the dog's fault, he HAS to use the restroom. Getting mad is an exercise in futility, and reprimanding the dog is actually counter-productive.

A flooded RX-8 is like a dog who left a mess inside the house. Obviously it wasn't Plan A, it's something he did when the owner doesn't provide it with the TLC it needed.

And BTW, to clear my flooded engine, I used the windshield washer fluid *trick*. My buddy and I had the car running in an hour... and it only took THAT long because it was our first time doing it. Luckily, it'll never happen again (unless another newbie borrows it!)

I am gettign ready to buy my first 8 this weekend, its a used 04 with 63k on it. I talked to the guy and he said its flooded on him 2 times in the past 3 years he has had the car. He said he replaced the plugs and wires on it.

He says it starts up fine and runs strong, I will know more once I drive up and check out the car.

He said his dad flooded it by pulling it out the garage and shutting it off. He seems pretty knowledgeable of 8's, I kinda drilled him on the major concerns like cold starts and what kind of oil he uses so I think he knows how to take care of the car.

My question is do you all think that 2 times flooded, would this ruin the apex seals?

Is there a way for me to "hear" if the car is low on compression?

Thanks

Flooding doesn't damage the apex seals. The renesis sprays a very large amount of gas when starting. The extra gas soaks the combustion chamber, add that to the injectors pumping gas while the car warms up and you have a condition that could lead to wet plugs. Once the car is warmed up the extra gas has burned off and all should be well. I've had my 8 since 10/2003. I've flooded it twice, both times after long highway drives. The tech's told me to rev the car to 3~4k and shut off the ignition while the engine was still spinning. The idea was to allow the extra gas to get blown out. I do this every time I shut of the car and I haven't had an issue since. My car is at 85K now and still runs great.
I do add 4~8 oz of 2 stroke oil at fill ups, and rev the car up to 9k at least once every time I take out it. I love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time.

Thank you !

Ive been reading rx8 forums for several days and have gained a ton of information, I think I am on the right track to handle my new 8

Flooding doesn't damage the apex seals. The renesis sprays a very large amount of gas when starting. The extra gas soaks the combustion chamber, add that to the injectors pumping gas while the car warms up and you have a condition that could lead to wet plugs. Once the car is warmed up the extra gas has burned off and all should be well. I've had my 8 since 10/2003. I've flooded it twice, both times after long highway drives. The tech's told me to rev the car to 3~4k and shut off the ignition while the engine was still spinning. The idea was to allow the extra gas to get blown out. I do this every time I shut of the car and I haven't had an issue since. My car is at 85K now and still runs great.
I do add 4~8 oz of 2 stroke oil at fill ups, and rev the car up to 9k at least once every time I take out it. I love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time.

I agree - I have 120km up, and have flooded it twice. No problems for a few years - since I always rev to 6,000 and get the engine half warmed up before turning off.

I've never heard of adding 2 stroke oil - why?

I should have been more specific, I add 2 stroke oil to the gas. 2 stroke oil burns 'better?' leaving less residue on combustion chamber components.

A couple weeks ago I my car stalled after a few seconds due to a weak battery. I replaced the battery and today I replaced the coil and spark plugs however the car still does not start. I followed the deflooding guides but it doesn't seem to want to start. Any ideas?

If it matters, the spark plugs i pulled out were black. I want to drive my car =(

@lemon most surefire way to start a flooded rotary is to tow-start it. RX8 even comes with tow hooks in the trunk. :)

A couple weeks ago I my car stalled after a few seconds due to a weak battery. I replaced the battery and today I replaced the coil and spark plugs however the car still does not start. I followed the deflooding guides but it doesn't seem to want to start. Any ideas?

If it matters, the spark plugs i pulled out were black. I want to drive my car =(
A bit more information please. Confirm that the starter is turning over ok, but it won't fire.

A bit more information please. Confirm that the starter is turning over ok, but it won't fire.

I'm a bit of a car noob...

I think the starter does seem to be turning over ok. I hear it trying to start but just not catching.

I don't know if I want to try to tow start. Seems like a lot of things could go wrong for someone that does not know a lot about cars... =(

Tow start should be ok - just get it up to about 20km/h in neutral, then slowly release the clutch. Beware you won't have power steering and brakes won't be good until you have released the clutch. However, you may have another problem that the black spark plugs indicate. If in doubt, get road service.

Havent flooded yet and im at 120k miles. Pretty happy with it. :)

Havent flooded yet and im at 120k miles. Pretty happy with it. :)I haven't flooded for years, but I know how to avoid it. It normally only happens if you start the car to put it into the garage, so it's turned off cold.

I asked Mazda dealer service department about reving the engine to get RPM up over 4000 and then shut off while enginestill spinning. They told me it is not necessary and does not help to prevent flooding.
What have your dealers told you ?

i too have fallen victim to the flooding. i wound up pulling the 20a fuse and trying to start it to blow the extra fuel out in combo with push start attempts to get it going again. fortunately, i already had fresh coils, plugs, and wires ready to be changed since i just got my 8. on a side note, anyone have the gtspec front tie brace?

My car decided to flood and the people i talked to said to rev it to 4k and then switch it of, it burns off all the fuel on the spark plugs and out of the chambers, plus it saves the spark plugs from corroding.

It sucks keeping it from flooding here, ITS 28 degrees here! Well it was last night, but I haven't flooded it yet. Just let her warm up

It sucks keeping it from flooding here, ITS 28 degrees here! Well it was last night, but I haven't flooded it yet. Just let her warm upHow many miles do you have on the coils, wires and plugs? I have no problems starting the car. It's 16F this morning.

How many miles do you have on the coils, wires and plugs? I have no problems starting the car. It's 16F this morning.

I don't know how much, I just bought it with 45k miles but the dealer didn't know how many miles the coils had and I think they replaced the wires and plugs after I test drove it and found a few problems. But it works flawlessly now, I just hate driving a nice car in cold weather =/

Edit:
Just bought the car this week too

Got my 8 in November. Drove it for 3 weeks and had to garage it. Took it out on March 1, 2011 because of my impatience. Just wanted to drive it. Had to move it because we are having the winter from hell and it won't end, so my husband had to plow the driveway, I was late for work, and
just moved it exactly 5 feet and I knew as soon as I shut it off by the noise the motor made, it was
flooded. I have all new spark plugs and ready for an oil change as soon as the weather gets warmer, can I do this without changing the coils? Or do you suggest to do all three at the same time?

I will do whatever it takes, I love my zoomer.

Got my 8 in November. Drove it for 3 weeks and had to garage it. Took it out on March 1, 2011 because of my impatience. Had to move it because we are having the winter from hell and it won't end, so my husband had to plow the driveway, I just moved it exactly 5 feet and I knew as soon as I shut it off by the noise the motor made, it was flooded. I have all new spark plugs and ready for an oil change as soon as the weather gets warmer, can I do this without changing the coils? Or do you suggest to do all three at the same time?

Some of this doesn't make sense. If you start the car and move it 5 ft, it doesn't make an unusual noise when you shut it down. You could have just re-started it, run it up in temperature, and rev it to 6,000rpm for a few seconds, and there'd be no problem. What makes you think it's flooded (though it's very possible). Why do you want to change the coil? Is it due for new spark plugs and an oil change?

I don't start my car for last 3 month, will it give problem to start....

If your battery, starter, plugs, wires, and coils are fine....there is no reason it wouldn't start :dunno:

The only one of those 3 that could suffer from sitting for 3 months is the battery. So make sure the battery is charged when you crank it. Or you THEN might have a flood on your hands.

Thnx......

At cold star my car get star at fast crank. then after warm up or doing red line 2 or 3 times, sometimes it take time to start and sometimes not. so pls need help..

Could be your starter, or it could be that you are redlining it before it's warm and destroying your engine.

At cold star my car get star at fast crank. then after warm up or doing red line 2 or 3 times, sometimes it take time to start and sometimes not. so pls need help.. I'd stay away from the red line. 6,000 RPM should be fine, but I'd wait until the engine is a bit warm (couple of minutes). The line is red because you're not supposed to go past it.

I warm up the engine for 5 to 8 minutes then i do redline....

I did have a bad flooding issue a few years ago (2005 RX8). Had it towed to dealer, $850 and a lot of work later, they got it going. The manager said, "never baby this thing." Since then I get the engine up to 6K rpm at least once every time I drive it. No problems since then. And obviously, no cold starts/shut offs.
It's a stupid problem they should have addressed. But the car IS fun to drive.

my dealer says that the shutdown procedure is very important; rev to 3000 rpm, hold it for a few seconds and turn ignition off with your foot still on the accelerator.

hi guys
i have been reading all the posts and none of them really answer what i was looking for,
i have recently flooded my car, finally got it going again after following instructions from this site. However since then my engine light came on, (was flashing at first but now it just stays on) is this common after the engine has flooded? Since flooding the car also needs to be cranked for longer to get it going, is this my starter motor on its way out?
Also it may be my paranoia but the car seems sluggish and the engine is sounding a little deeper then what it was before.
Any feedback would be really helpful. Thanks

hi guys
i have been reading all the posts and none of them really answer what i was looking for,
i have recently flooded my car, finally got it going again after following instructions from this site. However since then my engine light came on, (was flashing at first but now it just stays on) is this common after the engine has flooded? Since flooding the car also needs to be cranked for longer to get it going, is this my starter motor on its way out?
Also it may be my paranoia but the car seems sluggish and the engine is sounding a little deeper then what it was before.
Any feedback would be really helpful. Thanks

The kind folks at AutoZone will plug a reader into your engine and tell you what the CEL code is. Then, come back and post it and we will help you resolve the issue.

My money is on either misfire or oxygen sensor -- as those are the only CELs I've had!

hi guys
i have been reading all the posts and none of them really answer what i was looking for,
i have recently flooded my car, finally got it going again after following instructions from this site. However since then my engine light came on, (was flashing at first but now it just stays on) is this common after the engine has flooded? Since flooding the car also needs to be cranked for longer to get it going, is this my starter motor on its way out?
Also it may be my paranoia but the car seems sluggish and the engine is sounding a little deeper then what it was before.
Any feedback would be really helpful. ThanksAfter recovering from flooding, I've never had a warning light.

hi guys
i have been reading all the posts and none of them really answer what i was looking for,
i have recently flooded my car, finally got it going again after following instructions from this site. However since then my engine light came on, (was flashing at first but now it just stays on) is this common after the engine has flooded? Since flooding the car also needs to be cranked for longer to get it going, is this my starter motor on its way out?
Also it may be my paranoia but the car seems sluggish and the engine is sounding a little deeper then what it was before.
Any feedback would be really helpful. Thanks

A scanner will tell of the problem. With what your describing I would guess you have one of the ignition systems gone bad. Probably the leading ignition is not working properly. That would make the engine power to be down and definitely sound deeper.

Pretty sure I've posted this in the thread, probably more than once.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=202454

Flooding:
Flooding is only a concern if you have a weak ignition system. The problem is, your ignition system usually fails very slowly, so it is a gradual decline. The alert and responsible owner will detect the drop in mileage, the drop in power, the rougher idle, the occasional misfire, and replace their coils, plugs, and wires before it gets bad enough where there is a chance at flooding.

Every single flood I have seen reported for quite a while ended up coming down to one of these failing: Battery, Starter, Coil(s), Plug Wire(s), Plug(s). But by then, they also generally have a fried cat that needs to get replaced as well, and possibly an O2 sensor or two. Stay on top of the maintenance (long term included!) and you will wonder what all the fuss was about. Coils ($160 for all 4, 20 minute swap), plugs ($80 for all 4, 10 minute swap), and wires ($60, 2 minute swap), should be replaced every 30,000 miles, possibly sooner if you detect something starting to fail, since people have had them fail as early as 8,000 miles or 15,000 miles, though that's rare.

You don't want to shut off while it's cold simply because when the engine is cold, the ECU dumps more fuel into engine to help it warm up, and it leans back once the engine is warm. This extra fuel can make it harder to start an ignition, which a healthy ignition system is perfectly capable of overcoming. Weaken the ignition with failing plugs, coils, wires, alternator, starter, or battery, and you have a flood on your hands, and all the associated problems from that.

Yes. You had a flood, and it was because of a failing ignition system. This ignition failure was causing misfires (flashing CE.L) but you failed to take care of it and now it's caused a solid CEL from the engine trying to tell you "YOU REALLY NEED TO GET THIS TAKEN CARE OF!"

Buy everything from Advance online and the current price is about $182 with free shipping and including a 15% discount. That is coils, plugs, and wires.

Stop ignoring it. Your cat is probably already failing too at this point.

Pretty sure I've posted this in the thread, probably more than once.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=202454


Yes. You had a flood, and it was because of a failing ignition system. This ignition failure was causing misfires (flashing CE.L) but you failed to take care of it and now it's caused a solid CEL from the engine trying to tell you "YOU REALLY NEED TO GET THIS TAKEN CARE OF!"

Buy everything from Advance online and the current price is about $182 with free shipping and including a 15% discount. That is coils, plugs, and wires.

Stop ignoring it. Your cat is probably already failing too at this point.

Good info.

The RX8 flooding issue is a real problem and Mazda has been aware of it for some time. I was on this forum last year, trying to get info on the de-flooding procedure (after too many tows to count) and was attacked by haters for daring to speak negatively about the RX8. I also loved my car, but reliability was a must for me. Mazda ended up buying back my vehicle, as well as several others that contacted me after the initial posts. Some were full buy-backs and some reached cash settlements. For those of you that don't have a problem, GREAT, but for those of us that do/did, it is a real problem that we did not bargain for when purchasing our cars. I am happy that Mazda is stepping up and doing the right thing, but I can't help wondering how many RX8 owners gave up on the process and sold them to others that are now experiencing the same problems. Haters, don't bother..... been there... done that....

I don't intend this as "hate", so if you take it that way, that's entirely on you.

Everything I posted above is entirely accurate. Flooding with healthy ignition is something that DID happen at one point in the past with one of the original engine ECU flashes. Any ECU in late 2005 or later, or any ECU before late 2005 that was updated WILL NOT flood if the ignition, battery, and starter are healthy (aside from intentionally dumping fluids into the engine while it's turned off).

I'm sorry you had issues and couldn't find the root cause for it. I am 100% sure it wasn't flooding at the factory, the boat, the dealer, and everywhere else in between. Something failed on your car, and it was never diagnosed properly and/or repaired.

I don't intend this as "hate", so if you take it that way, that's entirely on you.

Everything I posted above is entirely accurate. Flooding with healthy ignition is something that DID happen at one point in the past with one of the original engine ECU flashes. Any ECU in late 2005 or later, or any ECU before late 2005 that was updated WILL NOT flood if the ignition, battery, and starter are healthy (aside from intentionally dumping fluids into the engine while it's turned off).

I'm sorry you had issues and couldn't find the root cause for it. I am 100% sure it wasn't flooding at the factory, the boat, the dealer, and everywhere else in between. Something failed on your car, and it was never diagnosed properly and/or repaired.

That's true, only the first cars had the problem. After mazda did reflashes cars were better. The later the vehicle the better the engine. '09 and later are the best.

Pretty sure I've posted this in the thread, probably more than once.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=202454


Yes. You had a flood, and it was because of a failing ignition system. This ignition failure was causing misfires (flashing CE.L) but you failed to take care of it and now it's caused a solid CEL from the engine trying to tell you "YOU REALLY NEED TO GET THIS TAKEN CARE OF!"

Buy everything from Advance online and the current price is about $182 with free shipping and including a 15% discount. That is coils, plugs, and wires.

Stop ignoring it. Your cat is probably already failing too at this point.

What he said. You are killing the cat, not to mention it's hard on the engine also. Replace plugs, wires and most of all the coils! You will be amazed how much better it runs (assuming no damage has been done).

cheers for the advice, although now the engine light has turned itself off now, but it still doesn't feel right. Will look into replacing all parts mentions above.

also i am from the UK so that website that has been recommend will not work for me :(

cheers for the advice, although now the engine light has turned itself off now, but it still doesn't feel right. Will look into replacing all parts mentions above.

Great! You can't go wrong!

The RX8 flooding issue is a real problem and Mazda has been aware of it for some time. I was on this forum last year, trying to get info on the de-flooding procedure (after too many tows to count) and was attacked by haters....

Just looked back at that thread. Really brutal.

So flooding wasn't because you didn't know what you were doing, but because of valet parkers and shops not familiar with rotaries. Yeah - that's an issue. Just met a former RX-7 owner who loved his car but kept flooding it when he had to move it to let housemates in and out of the driveway.

I'm fortunate that I never do valet parking (just don't travel in those circles), don't need to shuffle cars in my driveway, and my local Mazda dealer is very good for service. This reminds me, though, that I need to print that "This is a rotary - dont' turn off cold" placard that Expo1 posted, just in case I wind up stuck with someone else parking my 8.

Ken

In my 40 years working on the rotary cars, I've never seen a better solution to flooding than installing a manual fuel pump switch.

In my 40 years working on the rotary cars, I've never seen a better solution to flooding than installing a manual fuel pump switch.
So, I assume your procedure is to isolate the pump, then give it a good cranking (eg 10 seconds on, 10 seconds off) for about a minute, then turn the pump on and try to start.

I've done it this way, but pulling the fuse. It still took about half an hour, and smoke coming off the starter motor. Any comments?

No the the fuel pump switch is to prevent flooding ever again. A new operating procedure has to be learned. You would actually drive the car with the fuel pump switch. To start the car the fuel pump switch is off. The engine cranks and while it is you flip the fuel pump on. Now when you stop the engine, no matter how long or short you run it, doesn''t matter, turn the engine off first with the fuel pump switch. When the engine dies turn the key off. Side benifit to this is nobody can ever drive the car away. I know people that drove there car for years this way and the engine never flooded. We first used this solution in the '84,'85 gslse cars. When the 2nd gens came out we did the same fix. It can't possibly flood with this method. I'd be happy to talk to anybody about this if they want to call me.

Skip - this is very interesting. I think it's easier to just avoid short run times (eg a couple of minutes) , but if they happen, rev to 6,000 for about 10 seconds before turning off. Has anyone else tried the fuel switch method?

Skip - this is very interesting. I think it's easier to just avoid short run times (eg a couple of minutes) , but if they happen, rev to 6,000 for about 10 seconds before turning off. Has anyone else tried the fuel switch method?

I don't think I'd rev a cold engine to 6000 rpm. Mazda's rev procedure is done after you let the engine warm by idling, not on a cold engine.

Mazda has partly implemented Skip's method. With the latest flashes, the fuel pump does not start until after the engine has cranked a couple of times. You still turn it off with the ignition switch.

I remember working on some WW II vintage aircraft engines where shutdown was done by going full lean, rather than turning the magnetos off, so that part has been sort of done before, too.

Ken

Skip - this is very interesting. I think it's easier to just avoid short run times (eg a couple of minutes) , but if they happen, rev to 6,000 for about 10 seconds before turning off. Has anyone else tried the fuel switch method?

Whatever works for ya. I'm just telling about a way I did it for 30 years at my shop. I lived in a very cold long winter area. This method never failed. The times during the winter when the sun was out and customers would pull there car outside to wash it and then put it away, it would always flood. So all my customers had the fuel pump switch. I installed the switch in cars from '84- '85 till the 3rd gens came out. That's a speed density system fuel injection. So its harder to flood. The mass air flow cars have the problem.

my 2 fc's had the fuel pump switch. Best mod I could do for them!

Right on my club friend. Was never a negivtive. I have to mention that at my shop I had many female RX owners. Beside being very cool it was a challenge to have them own the car and not have a restart problem. If you were cool enough to buy one why does it flood when I don't feel like I did anything wrong. My female customers did a lot of errands. The bank, the grocery store, clearners, fast food,etc. So flooding was not an option. You really can't lose with a fuel pump switch.

Love the club feed back. Great club, keep the faith people.

The mass air flow cars have the problem.

The peripheral port rotaries could also expel a gas flood easier than the side port Renesis. It aggravates the severity when it happens and increases the difficulty of clearing it for the unenlightened owner.

I don't think I'd rev a cold engine to 6000 rpm. Mazda's rev procedure is done after you let the engine warm by idling, not on a cold engine.

Mazda has partly implemented Skip's method. With the latest flashes, the fuel pump does not start until after the engine has cranked a couple of times. You still turn it off with the ignition switch.

I remember working on some WW II vintage aircraft engines where shutdown was done by going full lean, rather than turning the magnetos off, so that part has been sort of done before, too.

KenI agree. I should have added that I run the engine long enough for the temperature gauge to show some movement, and the idle revs to decrease.

I am having start problem on my RX8 6 speed MT. Engine just being overhauled. Do you think it is linked to the air floow meter?

I don't understand what you are asking? (language barrier I expect)

1) Are you having trouble starting, but it starts? Or is it not starting at all?

2) What do you mean by "overhauled"? To me, that means an engine rebuild.

3) MAF data (Mass air flow sensor) is not used in starting the engine. I typed up this list in a different thread, and it shows all the components of starting where something can fail:

There are alot of different ways of having a "no start" and most of them have different symptoms, different points the "starting" process stops at.

The process is:
1: Key in
2: Clutch in
3: clutch sensor closes the circuit allowing start
4: Key to start
5: Starting relay opens, providing power to the starter from the battery
6: Battery power cranks over the starter motor
7: Starter motor spins the engine through the flywheel
8: Ignition opens
9: Coils get power, begin generating spark current
10: Wires transmit the current to the plugs
11: Plugs begin to spark
12: Fuel pump begins pumping
13: Engine standard compression and combustion should occur

It is possible for a no-start condition to be due to a failure at any one of the above points.

How far are you getting?

I don't see by any means the afm had anything to do with the engine replacement problem.

How many miles on old engine? What kind of oil ( brand ) @ oil changes?

Driving style? What happened to require an engine change? Do you have an engine compression check print out?

Thanks a lot for the prompt reply. In fact I had my engine rebuild with genuine Mazda rebuild kit and I just had the four ignition coils replaced. My concern is that I do not want to start replacing part by trial and error .
When I started the engine this week, I had to crank it a few times and it just started to flood. I am guessing that the fuel mixture is high, could it be the spark plugs?
I have ordered NGK spark plugs with the following ref:
RE7C -L (lead)
RE9B-T (trail)
This is recommended for city drive and also a new set of lead wires.

You're welcome, any way I can help. Honestly the only way you can tell exactly what's going on with a rotary engine is a engine compression check. Psi vs rpm. And that has to be done correctly. You will be replacing parts by trial and error without a comprehensive compression check. With that test done I can speak intelligently about your issue which I'd be happy to do.
Yeah you definitely don't want to throw darts at this problem. Where are you located?

When I started the engine this week, I had to crank it a few times and it just started to flood. I am guessing that the fuel mixture is high, could it be the spark plugs?
Sorry this is such an obvious question, but worth checking. When you had problem starting, had you had a very short running time when you last used it?

Had my first (and hopefully last!) flooding episode on my '05 manual. Bought new in 2005, the car has been flawless in starting and running, and averaging just over 21 mpg. Just rolled over 60,000 miles the other day. There have been several instances where one of us forgot to let it run a little while when moving to get to another car, but never with a problem on the next start. Two days ago, my son started it, drove it two blocks, and parked it. Next time it wouldn't start, and sounded a little odd, like compression was low. I run the battery down trying to get her going. Recharged, then about six hours later tried the procedure in the manual (full throttle, crank 10 sec., wait, no throttle, crank 10 sec., rinse, repeat). Did this off and on the next day, with no results. Then tried it again early this morning, no results. Son tried it a few hours later, and said it tried to catch. Then, as I was about to remove the wheel to get to the plugs, tried it one last time. It coughed and sputtered for a few seconds, then quit. Did the procedure again, and it did the same. The third time, instead of stopping cranking when it seemed to run, I just kept grinding the starter until the engine began to outrun the starter speed. At this time, she began to respond a little to throttle, still shaking and sounding awful. Also noticed it threw a code, I assume a misfire. Haven't had a chance to read it yet. Then I gradually gave it throttle until about 2,000 rpm it suddenly smoothed out. I raised it to 3,000 until the temp gauge began to rise, then gradually let off until it was purring at idle. Once at full operating temp we went for a spirited drive, hitting redline in 1,2, and 3 until common sense took over. Ran flawlessly, and has since, including a couple of trips and stops/starts. I guess the gist of this is that it can happen when you least expect it, regardless of past performance!

11/22: Code P0301, misfire detected; pending.

wow this thread is old

My situation - old weak starter, planning to buy new(er) one. Found at Autozone for $97 (2 kw)
My question - What is cranking power of new upgraded mazda starter?

So far the only thing i can go off by is size because autozone has there own part numbers that don't corespond with oem p/n.

I have a quick question that I think I know the answer to but would just like clarification.

I recently bought an 04 8, bought it with what the previous owner believe to be a blown engine/ carbon locked, etc etc

A little background,
I pull the plugs, they were nasty, replaced them with NGK leading and trailing. The wire were the original wires, so I replaced them as well figuring it couldnt hurt, making sure to replace them in the proper order. The starter is the updated starter. Coils were replaced 10k ago according to previous owner.

I was in the process of deflooding as per the multiple instructions on this site. I had done it both ways, fuel pump fuse out, and the pedal to the floor technique. I had gotten it to start, but only briefly, when I would try to give it some gas to keep it running it would die on me. Or if i just let it go it would die. Now the question is;

Does this just mean that I should continue with the deflooding, ( remove plugs, crank, wait, crank, wait, etc) or am I missing something here?

Any help would be appreciated, I've been scouring the site for days now trying to find some thread pertaining to my problem. I did however notice that some of the deflooding threads did say your car will want to start and this means your close, but my car did start, or was this "want to start" really meaning it will rev up and start but die?

Thanks

edit* I think ronrutrx8 had the same problem, i will continue with the deflooding, but still if someone could let me know I'm on the right track here.

So my engine is flooded... I started the process to deflood but when I went to take the spark plugs out, I could barely fit my arm down through the hole, let alone fit my socket wrench in the space allotted... I'd rather not spend the money to get it towed and have my shop do it.. I'm also a bit weary of disconnecting all the hoses that are in the way, I counted 9-10 different hoses and pipes pretty much blocking access. I bought my 8 and the manual was not in the car either.
Any ideas?

So my engine is flooded... I started the process to deflood but when I went to take the spark plugs out, I could barely fit my arm down through the hole, let alone fit my socket wrench in the space allotted... I'd rather not spend the money to get it towed and have my shop do it.. I'm also a bit weary of disconnecting all the hoses that are in the way, I counted 9-10 different hoses and pipes pretty much blocking access. I bought my 8 and the manual was not in the car either.
Any ideas?

Turn the steering wheel completely to the right. Reach in behind the driver's front tire. They are literally right there.

Awesome thank you so much! Will do.

hello
when my car is cold it start at first crank bt after driving, it takes time to start so what should i do now?

Per the insert in my manual, the upgraded starter is 2.0 kw.

If the car has known engine problems, it sounds as if there is compression problems. When mine finally started and ran on, it took a tiny amount of throttle; too much it would quit, too little it wouldn't idle. Was very rough for about 10 seconds or so, then smoothed out. When it was flooded and I was cranking so much, it sorta sounded like there was little compression, like it was just spinning and not resisting. Even then, it didn't take much to run the battery down. Maybe two to three attempts.

After Hit up my car takes 2 to 3 attemps to start bt in cold it start at first attempt..

I have once, that's when I joined this forum which has been very, very helpful with many more issue's this car has.

I have once, that's when I joined this forum which has been very, very helpful with many more issue's this car has.
so what shud I will do now pls need suggestion..

hello
when my car is cold it start at first crank bt after driving, it takes time to start so what should i do now?

After Hit up my car takes 2 to 3 attemps to start bt in cold it start at first attempt..

so what shud I will do now pls need suggestion..

I can't figure out what you need help with.

So perhaps the best suggestion is to try explaining yourself better, with English, and we can go from there.

se3p s, my bad, I thought I was answering the poll question. But, have you changed the obvious parts in the last 30k or 40k miles. Plugs, coils and plug wires, cleaned the ESS,cleaned the MAF or had a compression check.
RIWWP, I think I can translate , Hit=heat , bt=but, so what shud I do now pls need suggestion= I need help.

I gathered that part.


But it's like those people at work that send me an email: "My computer doesn't work"

And expect me to know exactly what's wrong with all of the information contained within that line.


He needs to articulate the problem to actually get accurate help. If he doesn't care enough to do that, it makes it harder to care enough to help.

se3p s, If you take RIWWP's suggestion, it would be to your advantage, and maybe post your question in the forum of your native language. If thats not possible, just take your time and search, it may take you a while to find your answer, but every possible problem with the 8 has been covered multiple times.

I m srry for my English. actually i want to say that at cold start my 8 get start at first crank but after driving, I off the car after few min if i again give start it take 2 or 3 crank to start.

i recently flooded my RX8 moving it 15 ft into the garage one day preparing for a snow storm 3 days later i tried starting it and it wouldn't turn over. i tried the petal to the floor method. it didn't work. i guess the fuse method is next..

Budwick - your giving a confusing message here. When you say "it wouldn't turn over", this indicates that when you try the starter, nothing happens - the engine (and starter motor) don't turn. Can you clarify, please.

If the engine turns over, but doesn't start, you have some options. - eg :
remove the fuse, and turn over a few times, replace and try again. Be prepared to try for half an hour, and get a very hot starter. You need a healthy battery.
Some have reported success with towing and a clutch start (manual only).
Remove plugs and inject some oil.

James, the US vernacular is a little different than we use in Oz. It is a little confusing sometimes.
Budwick, seeing as you flooded the engine and it wont start, each time you try to start it without doing the de flood procedure,the flooding will increase. Pull the plugs,clean them and dry them, try a hair dryer or flame thrower type cigarette lighter. Pull the room fuse by the kick panel,pull the connector from the ESS, it's by the front pulley on the lower right side when looking from the front of the motor,while the plugs are out,crank the motor over for about 10 seconds,do this a few times.Put everything back as it was,hit the key to start.

James, the US vernacular is a little different than we use in Oz. It is a little confusing sometimes.

Thanks for the clarification. Is it still the understanding that the problem isn't "flooding" in the conventional sense, but rather, the excess petrol has removed the oil seal, thereby losing compression? In this case, it's more a matter of stopping petrol injection, and re-establishing the seal, to achieve good compression.

In relation to Buds issue, when starting the 8, it injects a copious amount of fuel, pretty much the same as pulling the choke on , like on a EH Holden, and when its shut down without the engine being warm , and the ECU is still in cold "mode", the excess fuel smothers the plugs.That is my understanding James.

If the car get flooded will the compression decerease..

hello
After D flooding will i need to change the engine oil immediately..

It wouldn't hurt to change the oil, how badly was it flooded and when was your last oil change?

Few days ago.

hello
After D flooding will i need to change the engine oil immediately..I've never changed the oil after this problem, and don't see any need to.

never personally flooded mine, 2006 69k miles with no problems. bought it at 11k miles. However, mechanic flooded it when was replacing my clutch after I tried teaching girlfriend to drive... best way to deflood, wrap a pillow to your rear bumper , and front bumper of another car that will push you,
turn key to start position
have other car push you to 25-30mph on an empty street,
put into second gear and slowly let go of the clutch
car will jump back into life =]
if you let go of clutch too fast it will jump a bit but will not start
park and let engine run for around 20 minutes ...
i expierenced loss of compression for around 15 miles on highway after deflooded it using that method, 4th gear foot all way down , no throttle response at all. but it all came back. 15k miles later nothing wrong =]

After D flooding will I need to do seafoaming ?

Seafoam has nothing to do with flooding, and may damage an already 'wet' catalyst.

I don't have any catalyst..

2006 69k miles with no problems. bought it at 11k miles. However, mechanic flooded it when was replacing my clutch after I tried teaching girlfriend to drive.

I'm a bit confused. 69k miles and no problems, but you've had to change the clutch? That sounds like a big problem to me.

You tried to teach your girlfriend to drive on your RX8? I feel faint. What were you drinking that resulted in that burst of insanity?

You tried to teach your girlfriend to drive on your RX8? I feel faint. What were you drinking that resulted in that burst of insanity?

This made me laugh. I've had several friends ask me to teach them how to drive a manual, after experiencing a rather severe engine flood early on, I consistently refuse, especially considering the difference in performance. I then offer to teach them in my 83 RX7, to which I've had no takers.
No inexperienced manual drivers will be touching my 8.

I need help my car is giving idel prbolem. when i rev the the car the rpm fluctuate.
Miss Manners says, "If you decide to rev your engine, you must expect that, as a result, your rpm will fluctuate." Makes sense to me.

I have had issues of engine flooding even though I had the engine rebuilt (Mastrer rebuild kit). Two primary causes are
1. City Drive
2. Switch off the engine when cold.
The solution I got was to repalce the original spark plugs by new warmer types as I do City Drive and it worked.
The reference of these spark plugs (NGK) are 1. Qty 2 RE7C-L and Qty 2 RE9B-T.
(www.jp4mance.co.uk) I ordered mine from them and the service was very responsive.
I need to say that for long drives you can use your RX8 every day but for city drive, rev up the engine a bit before aprking.
It did help me

use warmer spark plugs and it will make a big difference if you do city drive. I used 1. 2 x leading plugs (RE7C-L) and 2 x trailing plugs (RE9B-T) (NGK ones) and it sorted out the issue.

I flooded one time, big headache/, couple years ago.
Since then, I always get it to operating temperature...always rev to 6K at least once on drive...and wind up before shutting off. Also keep well tuned. Since then, no problems.

never flooded in 5 yrs.
what i can't figure out is why do some people experience flooding as soon as shutting the engine off when cold. shouldn't it be able to start it right back up?

never flooded in 5 yrs.
what i can't figure out is why do some people experience flooding as soon as shutting the engine off when cold. shouldn't it be able to start it right back up?

Actually the problem is not when you try to immediately start back up. The issue is when the engine is cold, you start it and run it briefly (back it out of the garage), then you turn it off and let it sit a long period (overnight). When you go to start it the next morning you find it flooded.

Mazda has made a number of improvements to allow the engine to recover from this situation, however the owner's manual still has the recommendation (warning) that once started one should let the engine reach operating temp before shutting it off.

You will have that more as the engine gets older to some degree or other. Primarily because the older engine will have lost some of its compression. its the nature of this beast. I have found that first and foremost you must listen for the click after the key is turned. Turning the key from off to full start will only aggravate the problem. If when you start the engine turning and it is apparent that it isn't kicking in within a few turns add gas pedal or go all the way to the floor. This opens up the air and avoids flooding in problem engines. Hopefully it will start. If if doesn't, you need to let it sit. and hopefully de-flood itself. I have had to let mine sit for 3 days once. 2004 automatic.