Im very curious of this as I have never driven a non turbo rotary before. Will the RX8 be weak and lifeless before it gets into its powerband? Will you have to drive around and 7500 rmp constantly to feel any power? Will this car handle well? Have they release handling specs?


I've been in love with the RX8 for a long time and been wanting to put down a deposit, but no one can even tell me what kind of tires the thing has yet. Any numbers from mazda would really make me feel better. Are they going to release this info because I just don't feel comfortable handing over a grand not knowing anything but the color.

Skim the messages in this forum. Especially the Discussion section. There are tons of posts about the expected performance of the RX-8. A couple of the guys here have posted torque curve graphs and analyses based on weight, gearing, power and other factors and give approximate 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

You might also want to use the search button. There have been a lot of comparisons to the 350Z, S2000 and G35.

Happy Researching!

Originally posted by arnoldj
Im very curious of this as I have never driven a non turbo rotary before. Will the RX8 be weak and lifeless before it gets into its powerband? Will you have to drive around and 7500 rmp constantly to feel any power? Will this car handle well? Have they release handling specs?

If the RX8 performs anything like the S2000 they can keep it. Have you ever driven an S2000? The car feels like an Acura Integra up untill 5,750 rpm. After that the car really performs. Although the integra is not a slow car, its not really a fast car either. You would expect a performace car (S2000) to have acceleration that resembles a Muscle Car not an Integra.

Expected from who? You?
To resemble a muscle car? Hahaha, but No, thanks ...
S2000 has a great engine.
The fact that you have to rev is on of the best things in that car.
I hope the RX-8 feels the same way. 9000rpm is not as cool as the 18000 redline of the formula1 engines, but is still tons more fun than the 5-6K redline of the muscle junks

Originally posted by Spoonie


If the RX8 performs anything like the S2000 they can keep it. Have you ever driven an S2000? The car feels like an Acura Integra up untill 5,750 rpm. After that the car really performs. Although the integra is not a slow car, its not really a fast car either. You would expect a performace car (S2000) to have acceleration that resembles a Muscle Car not an Integra.

Originally posted by Spoonie
You would expect a performace car (S2000) to have acceleration that resembles a Muscle Car not an Integra.
Haha.. the S does the 1/4 in about 14 secs so I guess the final result resembles a muscle car, just not how you get there. Please go troll on the S2Konline.com

Arnold, from what I've read here so far the Renesis engine should feel as good as the S2000 powerplant if not better. I think it will feel smoother throughout the powerband and pull all the way to redline very nicely.

That said I would never put any money down on any car before I get to see it and drive it. If I was making $200K a year, well then maybe I would. :)

Originally posted by Quick_lude

Haha.. the S does the 1/4 in about 14 secs so I guess the final result resembles a muscle car, just not how you get there. Please go troll on the S2Konline.com

14 sec flat. You are dreaming. The S2000 has not run 14 flat in years. The only time that a stock S2000 ran 14 flat was when honda provided modded examples to run low times for the magazines. Recently, the best times that Iv'e seen falls in the 14.5 -14.9 second range.

Car and driver summed is up best about the S2000, and i couldn't agree more. December 2002 "hot tin roofs" You should read the comparison test. The 350z beat out the S2000.

"Highs: Light, tight, and ready to fight, and by far the easiest top to remove.

Lows: Claustrophobic with its hardtop on, a nest of hornets under the hood with not enough sting.

The Verdict: Always searching for a track and settling for the road.

I'll be first to agree the S is not a great 1/4 mile car. You need to launch at 7K rpm and that can't be good for the car in the long run. BUT some owners have broken the 14 sec barrier stock, depending on conditions of course. So it can be a 1/4 mile car but it's NOT made to be a 1/4 mile car. It was also designed to be a roadster/convertible, it doesn't work very well with the top on. I'm hoping the 8 doesn't need to be launched at 7K to get good 1/4 mile times but personally I don't really care, I don't race the 1/4 anyway, I race at a real track with turns. :p And I will have absolutely no problem keeping the rpms up there. :)

I expect the RX-8 to be very close to the S2000 in performance. I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed at all if it's a few ticks slower in a straight line. Every car I buy from now on must be a capable autocrosser, and the S2000 certainly is. I'd like to have one. With that said, for me the handling on the S2000 that I drove was a bit much at the limit. Again, I'd be quite happy if the RX-8 comes in a few notches below the S2000 in skidpad, slalom, etc. if it feels more stable at those limits. The Miata takes that a bit too far for my taste; it makes horrible drivers look fantastic because it's so incredibly easy to catch if you push it too far. You can do some of the most idiotic things and it won't bite you too hard. Somewhere right in the middle is where I'd like the RX-8 to be. If it's not, it should be easy enough to fix with alignment, tires, shocks and sways.

I guess I'm not the right person to answer your question. I enjoy how a car feels on the street and autocross than what the numbers are. Feel can't be faked or fixed nearly as easily as skidpad or slalom numbers. All those really take is sticky rubber and an alignment, and you're well above whatever the car was stock.

As for the power issue, that's even more difficult. I agree with the Ingegra comparison for the S2k. I didn't like the feel, but it wasn't nearly as troubling as the incredible racket the thing made when it was in the powerband. Every cop within 10 blocks can hear one of those when you hit the VTEC. It's an amazing achievement to get that kind of power from that size engine, but it either feels like an Integra when off the VTEC or is screaming bloody murder when on-VTEC. Hopefully the smoothness of the rotary will take car of the noise and the width of the torque curve and the gearing will take care of the Integra-like feel. It'll never feel like a 350Z pulling away from the lights though. It'll be just as quick (or a hair slower), but the feel should be different.

btw, I'm not at all trying to knock the S2k. I lusted after them until I test drove one, and then I was just impressed. I liked it a lot, just not $15k more than the Miata I ended up getting instead. Great car, just not for me, particularly at that price.

The S2000 was never designed to be a 1/4 mile car. Drag racing is for people with attention deficit disorder (thats my line anyway hahaha). The beauty of the S2000 is the completely shake free chassis and incredible handling, with the nearest enging to an F1 engine on the market. I have lived with my S2000 for 3 years and in all conditions (I bought it off the showroom floor and drove it home in the middle of a blinding snowstorm. If your idea of a sportscar is a muscle car, that posts good numbers 0-60 or 1/4 mile, then the S2000 AND RX-8 are not for you. If your idea of a sporstcar is a car with above average speed, and can tackle the twisty bits while putting a smile on your face, then the S2000, RX-8, Boxster etc are for you.

Originally posted by 9000RPMan
The S2000 was never designed to be a 1/4 mile car. Drag racing is for people with attention deficit disorder (thats my line anyway hahaha). The beauty of the S2000 is the completely shake free chassis and incredible handling, with the nearest enging to an F1 engine on the market. I have lived with my S2000 for 3 years and in all conditions (I bought it off the showroom floor and drove it home in the middle of a blinding snowstorm. If your idea of a sportscar is a muscle car, that posts good numbers 0-60 or 1/4 mile, then the S2000 AND RX-8 are not for you. If your idea of a sporstcar is a car with above average speed, and can tackle the twisty bits while putting a smile on your face, then the S2000, RX-8, Boxster etc are for you. Amen.

Originally posted by Spoonie


If the RX8 performs anything like the S2000 they can keep it. Have you ever driven an S2000? The car feels like an Acura Integra up untill 5,750 rpm. That's because the powerband is all up high in the S2000. Not really a bad thing on the track as long as the gearing is done right. You can be in the powerband at all times. To some people that's the beauty of engines like this -- they can tootle around town economically, and then take it to the track and let the engine go wild in its upper rev range. The Jekyll and Hyde effect, if you will.

If the S2000 feels too slow below the VTEC point, just make sure you're on the cam whenever you want to go fast. It's not hard.


Anyway I believe the RX-8 will have a more linear powerband than the S2000.

"9000rpm is not as cool as the 18000 redline of the formula1 engines, but is still tons more fun than the 5-6K redline of the muscle junks"

isnt it an 8500 redline now?

9000 RPM redline. 9500 Fuel cutoff/buzzer alarm.

Yummy! I've got to experience a rotary engine ASAP

Herc, according to Car & Driver, the redline is 8500 and also the pictures boowana took, the redline appears to be 8500... you may be write though

Check it out playa:D

http://www2.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/rx8/rx8_main_flash.jsp

As the owner of an S2000, I think the outright performance will be similar, but the on-street performance of the RX8 will be better due to a better torque curve. It will all come down to gearing, too.

BTW, Spoonie, several S2000 owners have gotten them to run 13.8's in the 1/4 mile, so I don't know where you get your info from, but it shows some people can't drive and some can.

According to the other post with the spec sheet, http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?threadid=1835 it's curb weight is going to be 3000+lbs. It won't be outperforming an S2000 if it's curb weight is going to be 200lbs more than the S2000.

can't compare two different car like this

reasons
4 cylinder 2 seater convertble vs rotary 4 seater

V6 Class vs 2.0 liter class

every year Bestmotoring DVD has the circuit battle they brought out the best japanese domestic performance car like skyline, type r, lan evo, rx7, supra, nsx, s2000, impreza. all gather on the circuit running 20 laps.. for the past 2 years rx 7 won the champion due the to light weight and good balance compare to skyline, nsx, lan evo... in 2.0 liter class s2000 won , but the rx-7 v6 and rotary class beat the 2.0 liter class by like 5 laps..

i think it's just two different car u can't really compare

i think it would be fair to compare it with 350z

and on autoX RX8 should be faster due to the low end torque and higher hp.. S2000 handles good, but we don't really rev to 6k that often in a AUTOX
on drag race RX8 is faster because has more power

where can I find this Bestmotoring DVD you're talking about???

Originally posted by kry
but we don't really rev to 6k that often in a AUTOX

YES we do. :)

Originally posted by kry
...S2000 handles good, but we don't really rev to 6k that often in a AUTOX... And why the heck not?

---jps

Originally posted by kry
i think it's just two different car u can't really compare I compare them (RX8 and S2000) because they will offer similar overall performance for a similar cost. I think that's fair. Whether you want that performance from a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder, or a rotary engine, that's a personal preference.

The S2000 has no stability control or traction control.

Originally posted by ZoomZoomH
where can I find this Bestmotoring DVD you're talking about???

www.bestmotoring.jp

Originally posted by Sputnik
And why the heck not?

---jps

high end torque sucks for autox that's all..

celica gt 140hp and celica gts 180 hp (high end torque)

turns out celica gt won a lot of SCCA AutoX champ why? because celica gt has low end torque :) and it takes time to rev up and keep it in the powerband for GTS

same as s2k it takes time to rev up the vtec powerband and keep it there..

so true.... very hard to keep car in power range in 20mph tight hairpins

Originally posted by kry
we don't really rev to 6k that often in a AUTOX

?

I get to 7k (redline) every run, and on high speed courses I often spend a lot of time around 6k.

Originally posted by MazdaMan182
Herc, according to Car & Driver, the redline is 8500 and also the pictures boowana took, the redline appears to be 8500... you may be write though

The mazdarx-8.com site says the redlines are 7500 for auto tranny and 9000 for manual. The tach on manual FDs (93-95 RX-7, US) have a red tick at 7500 RPM, even though the true redline is 8000 RPM where it goes solid red. Perhaps it is another thing like that in the pics you saw.

-Max

Originally posted by kry
high end torque sucks for autox that's all..

celica gt 140hp and celica gts 180 hp (high end torque)

turns out celica gt won a lot of SCCA AutoX champ why? because celica gt has low end torque :) and it takes time to rev up and keep it in the powerband for GTS

same as s2k it takes time to rev up the vtec powerband and keep it there.. Unless I'm very much mistaken, an S2000 won its class (BS) at Nationals this year. So much for your theory. ;)

Lack of torque doesn't necessarily mean a car won't win its class. There are lots of other factors that determine which cars can win at the National level. There are lots of very good cars that just don't win because they're not classed competitively.

Originally posted by BryanH
Unless I'm very much mistaken, an S2000 won its class (BS) at Nationals this year. So much for your theory. ;)

Lack of torque doesn't necessarily mean a car won't win its class. There are lots of other factors that determine which cars can win at the National level. There are lots of very good cars that just don't win because they're not classed competitively.

Prepared -
Class B
You'll find high performance, production based non-street-driven vehicles here. Cars retain their original design, structure, and drive layout unless otherwise specified in the Solo Rules. Minimum weights are specified for all cars as part of the classing structure. Please refer to the Solo Rules for details on the allowable modifications.

http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/classes/index.html

who bothers to measure 1/4 mile and 0-60?

Cornering and Braking is what makes driving fun (in my humble personal opinion).

speed is measured by the rate of your pulse

Now, probably the RX-8 will be close to the S2000 in these measurement criteria but much more engaging and fun to drive. Same sort of torque, similar Engine PS - Okay, the roof doesn't open but the rotary engine characteristics, RX-8 suspension and braking make it great fun.

I like the reference to the Maita/MX-5. Other manufacturers build faster roadsters but none is balanced fun like the Mazda.

Originally posted by rx-8@mazda
who bothers to measure 1/4 mile and 0-60?

I like the reference to the Maita/MX-5. Other manufacturers build faster roadsters but none is balanced fun like the Mazda.

i think the mr2 spyder is pretty good too ^^"

Originally posted by rx-8@mazda
who bothers to measure 1/4 mile and 0-60?

Cornering and Braking is what makes driving fun (in my humble personal opinion).

speed is measured by the rate of your pulse

Now, probably the RX-8 will be close to the S2000 in these measurement criteria but much more engaging and fun to drive. Same sort of torque, similar Engine PS - Okay, the roof doesn't open but the rotary engine characteristics, RX-8 suspension and braking make it great fun.

I like the reference to the Maita/MX-5. Other manufacturers build faster roadsters but none is balanced fun like the Mazda.

The engines of the S2000 and the RX-8 have similar characteristics. The power to weight ratio is also similar, it should result in similar acceleration. The major difference will be the character of the engine at high revs. To keep the S2000 often-above 6000 revs is at the end very tiring and limits its performance in day-to-day use. The rotary (I have unfortunately never driven one) should be very smooth above 6000revs, which makes is performance a lot more usable.
:cool:

Originally posted by sheylen


The major difference will be the character of the engine at high revs. To keep the S2000 often-above 6000 revs is at the end very tiring and limits its performance in day-to-day use. The rotary (I have unfortunately never driven one) should be very smooth above 6000revs, which makes is performance a lot more usable.
:cool:

I have owned an S2000 since the first week of release in 9/99.

You do not have to keep the S in the VTEC range ( >5800 rpm), in order to enjoy this car. In my opinion, the performance characteristics below VTEC are not at all tiring and are actually quite good. This F20C engine has two distinct personalities: 1) it is very tame but quick below VTEC and 2) when VTEC "kicks in", the engine becomes an extremely loud beast pushing the car with rapid acceleration all the way to 9K.

I would expect the powerband on the RX-8 to be smooth all the way to the redline. This is going to be a new experience for me as well. I too, have never driven a rotary but I am looking forward to it.

More S2000 - RX-8 comparison stuff here: http://rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=21289#post21289

The major difference between the RX-8 and the s2000 is that the RX-8 powerband comes in much earlier than the s2000 one.

turns out celica gt won a lot of SCCA AutoX champ why? because celica gt has low end torque and it takes time to rev up and keep it in the powerband for GTS

dood, I don't mean to be rude, but do you even know what you're talking about? Here's something that explains the relationship between horsepower and torque:
http://www.v8914.com/Horsepower-v-torque.htm

The GT's biggest advantage over the GTS is it's 15" wheels. It allows the GT be raced with much better rubber. It has been debated that it makes a stock GT quicker than a stock GTS, but it doesn't matter since they run in different classes anyway.

I drive a Type R. It doesn't take me any time to "rev up to keep it in the power band". I rev the car to 7000, drop the clutch, then I'm never below 6500 again. How would having more low end torque help me?

Prepared -
Class B
You'll find high performance, production based non-street-driven vehicles here.

The class you quoted off SCCA's site is B-Prepared. Not B stock. Big difference.

I wouldn't put too much faith into what you see in those Best Motoring videos. They're meant to be considered more as entertainment. It's obvious that the drivers are of varying skill levels. And their method of gridding the cars is meant more to make an interesting race to watch than to compare car's lap times.

Originally posted by B18C5


dood, I don't mean to be rude, but do you even know what you're talking about? Here's something that explains the relationship between horsepower and torque:
http://www.v8914.com/Horsepower-v-torque.htm

The GT's biggest advantage over the GTS is it's 15" wheels. It allows the GT be raced with much better rubber. It has been debated that it makes a stock GT quicker than a stock GTS, but it doesn't matter since they run in different classes anyway.

I drive a Type R. It doesn't take me any time to "rev up to keep it in the power band". I rev the car to 7000, drop the clutch, then I'm never below 6500 again. How would having more low end torque help me?



The class you quoted off SCCA's site is B-Prepared. Not B stock. Big difference.

I wouldn't put too much faith into what you see in those Best Motoring videos. They're meant to be considered more as entertainment. It's obvious that the drivers are of varying skill levels. And their method of gridding the cars is meant more to make an interesting race to watch than to compare car's lap times.


yes, i realized i was wrong about that... but u must have to be a good tip and toe driver to keep your rev that high during cornering :)