It was hard to pick the right gear when you are just cruising in 6th. Do I want 4th or 5th, or will I still be under redline in 3rd? It would also be nice to have a little light that told you what gear you are in. I tried going from 6th to 4th, and hit 2nd by accident. Luckily I realized it before letting the clutch out all the way. The amazing thing is that the car didn't seem to care that much, it was almost like it was saying "go ahead, I can rev to 13000 rpms."

Has anyone else experienced this? Thank god for that little beep.

I would love to see a modern rotary powered motorcycle. If they dump half the displacement of the Renesis, it will still have 80 ft lb of torque. Now rev that baby to 13000 rpms, and you have a 198hp super bike that will challenge any street legal vehicle on the planet.

Originally posted by jdwk
Has anyone else experienced this?

If you mean has anyone else tried to race while on a test drive, I sure hope the answer is no. I hope there are not two such idiotic, inconsiderate jerks on this forum. But that's probably hoping too much. so what you're saying is, some poor unsuspecting schmoe is gonna buy a "new" 8 that's been thrashed by you on a joyride. Thanks for nothing, i hope someone does that to you without your knowledge in the next "new" car you buy.

To answer the rest of your comments more rationally, the answers are pretty universally "no." If you had taken the time to get to know the '8 and respect it as your own car, not some toy to trash and take back to the dealer, you would know what gear you're in by sound and feel; you would intuitively use the spring loading on the shifter to keep 2-4-6 separate without mistakenly enter the wrong gear. In short, you would know "your" car because it would be "your" car.

And you would know that anyone who takes time to learn to drive the car properly -- which includes respecting the break-in limitations -- wouldn't need an idiot light to tell them when to shift. Unless, of course, they're an idiot.

And I mean that all in a nice way. ;) Have a great freakin' day.

I found this quote from you on another thread:
Originally posted by jdwk
One just had 50 miles on it, the other had 1900. They were pretty identical in terms of performance. I could tell the interior of the one with 1900 was a little less solid, but none of the noises were terribly annoying.

I raced a M3 on the highway during the test drive, and lost bad. But it is a 50k car as well.

I support what 8_wannabe stated above. But, I'm hoping that you at least pulled this stunt with the higher mileage 8.

BTW - Seems a lot of posts care a whole heck of a lot about straight line acceleration performance. This is a whole package. Braking is incredible. Try accelerating through a corner - and feel the grip. The balance is near perfect. Yeah, there will ALWAYS be someone with a better car on the road... but this is a lot of car for the $$$$$.

Sorry, I forgot to explain that car had 1900 miles and it's intent and purpose was just that. The dealer said they had no plans of ever selling the car for anything close to new or book.

The salesman encouraged me to race the M3, and I was very curious as well. Also the misshift did not occur during the race. It was well after, I was just seeing how smooth the car skipped down a gear since the RPM close gears allow it.

I was actually pretty careful with the car, trying to keep my shifts as smooth as possible, and staying well away from the warning beep.

This is not a new practice, most dealers keep a specific car to beat on, and then end up selling it cheap or giving it to an employee.

My intent of the post was to ask if anyone had made this mistake before and what was the outcome. Also to give the free-spinning engine some praise.

thanks for explaining, jd. I'm glad to hear it was a higher-mileage demo. I was a first-shipment buyer meaning there were no demo cars when I bought; it took most dealers a couple months till they did that. Even then, some jerks bragged how they thrashed a car with maybe 5 miles on it, then put it back on the lot as new. You sound like you got a lot more sense than that. But like I said, as you drive it (like any car) it becomes an extension of you. You will shift by sound and feel, not by rpms or speed. I've found if my radio is on loud I don't drive as well as when it's off cuz I lose touch with the car. I'd bet many of us are like that. The way the shifter is spring loaded, I find shifing into all gears effortless and natural with no difficulty getting into the proper gear.

No, I babied the hell out of the one with 50 miles. We just got in it for comparisons sake. But if I were to buy a new car, I think 10 is about the most I would accept, preferably less, so I don't even really like touching new cars.

I am glad I took the extra long test drive. It really did become an extension of me. That's what Mazda is best at, but I have always driven Mazdas so I am pretty used to it. However, I am not used to a six speed, and I caught my mistake before causing any damage.

suggestion on the display of gear you're in : buy an auto

You even tried to race a M3 with a RX-8, what are you stupid?

It's quite refreshing to see that two people can have a slight disagreement without resorting to ridiculous outbursts that you regret later (like I've seen a time or two on this forum). Anyway, good on you jdwk and 8 wannabe.

Ridiculous outbursts? ME??? Heavens. Just don't search my posts for comments on Texas.

Speaking of idoits....in my second test-drive experience, they pulled the plastic off the seats on this beautiful titanium. The salesman said that they had to drive the car off-lot and then change drivers. I asked why and he mumbled something in salesman-ese -- a non-answer-answer and I figured what do I care since I'll get to drive it anyway. Well, the reason was so he could punish the hell out of that ride on the one-mile drive to the parking lot where I took over. He took this car, with about 3 miles total on it, and redlined in first and second both. Probably would have redlined in 3rd if we'd had enough road. Scared the lving bejeezus out of my wife who was in the back-seat.

I swapped position with him at the designated point and drove it enough to tell it was "peppy" but certainly didn't hurt it. When I bought my 8, (at another dealer BTW), they didn't have my color/package in stock and were calling other dealers to line up the car I wanted. I wouldn't consider the one from the dealer with the crazy-driving-idoit-bastard. As it turns out, mine had 2 miles on it when I took delivery and needless to say I'm glad of that.

Bravo, firstspin. You did the world a favor by not buying at that dealership. That was what I was reacting to in my first outburst cuz I know this stuff goes on. You expect salesmen to be brainless, but it hurts even more if a potential buyer -- who presumably admires the car and will be joining this fellowship of '8 owners -- would do that as well. I'm glad to see it's just the knucklehead salesmen.

Above, you guys were speaking about thrasher high mileage test drivers. Man, the car I tested was one of those. It had about 1,400 miles when I tested it, and it was the preordered car of a former member of this group who didn't complete the sale. The dealer kept it and the owner and his brother ran the heck out of it, then the salesmen, then anybody who wanted to. By the time I drove it the engine was trashed. It idled all over the place and had flat spots in the power curve. The reason I bought the car was because of the great handling and such, and I only prayed that the engine was actually better than it appeared. It was . . . praise the lord. It's 9incredible how quickly jerks can trash a car. It's frightening.

Originally posted by jdwk
I was just seeing how smooth the car skipped down a gear since the RPM close gears allow it.

:confused: No car will be smooth if you don't rev-match (or rev-match with double-clutch) on the downshifts. The RX-8 is actually excellent in this regard, since the throttle response is very quick. Are you just trying to downshift the transmission and let the clutch out to see how big a jerk you get from engine braking? Why would you ever want to do that?

Regards,
Gordon

My intent was not beat the M3. I subscribe to just about all the car mags and know the figures on just about every car on the road by heart. I knew the M3 would beat me, I just wanted to see how badly.

I understand the concept of rev matching, and I can drive my car smoother than any automatic. I have never seen the need for double clutching in any car I have driven, except into first when rolling. From my understanding it is for race application vehicles that do not have synchros.

My foot was obviously on the gas, I was moving at about 45-50 mph in sixth gear. I was trying to test the "jerk" but in the other direction due to the lower gear. Crusing at 50mph in 6th and downshifting to 5th did not provide the increase in acceleration that my car has going from 5th to 4th. So I wanted to see what 4th gear would do.

Engine breaking is considerable in this car though. When you let off the gas at high rpm, your passenger gets thrown into the dash. You really have to switch gears quickly and get back on the gas to keep going. Conveniently the short throw and quick clutch allow you to do just that.

I've never confused myself downshifting, but during my test drive the car felt so comfortable at 80km/hr in 2nd that I almost convinced myself I was in 4th. Not really a big deal (going to 5th instead of 3rd).

I think I had a zen moment where I just let the shifter go where it naturally wanted to... :)

Fair enough on the explanation!

Originally posted by jdwk
I have never seen the need for double clutching in any car I have driven, except into first when rolling. From my understanding it is for race application vehicles that do not have synchros.

So synchros do the work on a synchronised gearbox - which means that synchros can and do wear out. Not often these days, but it still happens. Double-clutching downshifts, while it does make the shift even smoother than rev-matching (although the difference is what you feel through the gear lever), also eliminates wear on the synchronisers. That is the benefit, albeit small. If you had an Alfa Romeo, then it would be absolutely essential to double-clutch downshifts after about 20K miles, if you didn't want to grind it! Their 2nd gear synchros must have been made out of cardboard ;)

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by jdwk
It was hard to pick the right gear when you are just cruising in 6th. Do I want 4th or 5th, or will I still be under redline in 3rd? It would also be nice to have a little light that told you what gear you are in. I tried going from 6th to 4th, and hit 2nd by accident. Luckily I realized it before letting the clutch out all the way. The amazing thing is that the car didn't seem to care that much, it was almost like it was saying "go ahead, I can rev to 13000 rpms."

Has anyone else experienced this? Thank god for that little beep.

I would love to see a modern rotary powered motorcycle. If they dump half the displacement of the Renesis, it will still have 80 ft lb of torque. Now rev that baby to 13000 rpms, and you have a 198hp super bike that will challenge any street legal vehicle on the planet.

Well, I made a little mistake: went from 5th to 2nd, when I simply wanted to go down to 4th. The result, do the math: I was doing almost 55 in 5th (cruising) I have a lucky ass, thus I smashed the gas (yeah, so much for rev-matching!) when downshifting....so I kept the engine spinning pretty good. It could have been worse.

I also missed a 6 to 4 downshift while using a demo with 2k miles on it on the freeway. My black/black beauty was not yet available, and I was still uncomfortable with 6 gears. Second gear and the screech of tires at 60+ MPH was a lesson I won't need to repeat. I realized the mistake probably before the clutch was let out all the way and before the redline (I think).

The problem is, there is not adequate acceleration from a 6 to 5 downshift, and the 6 to 4 is tricky and hard to match revs. I eagerly await canzoomer's ECU fix!

Going from odd to even or even to odd gears I never have any problem. But skipping 2-4, 4-6, or 3-5 I find tricky. I've never landed in the wrong gear, but that's because I'm so cautious. If I think i missed I go back to neutral then into gear. This, naturally, makes for a very prolonged and awkward shift, and I totally miss the quick acceleration I was hoping to get. I'm still practicing; its much easier than it used to be and I miss more and more rarely.

I have had my winning blue, 6MT, RX-8 for about 3 months now and just a few weeks ago I raced my friend in his 95 M3, and pulled him about a half a car length through 3rd gear, then when I hit 4th I began to pull him a car length.

Originally posted by jdwk
It was hard to pick the right gear when you are just cruising in 6th. Do I want 4th or 5th, or will I still be under redline in 3rd?That last question, at least, is easy: 3rd gear runs 10mph per 1000rpm, near as dammit, so as long as you're under 90mph, third is your friend for that overtaking maneuver.

Hi, new to this forum.
I read from someone on this forum saying "shift with your wrist not your arm". Since the shiter is spring loaded it should pop back into neutral dead center between third and fouth gear. You could not mistaken it for second if you pull straight down to fourth unless you might have muscled it a little bit when shifting to different gear. No flame please :) Please correct me if I say anything wrong.

Originally posted by mzrx
Hi, new to this forum.
I read from someone on this forum saying "shift with your wrist not your arm". Since the shiter is spring loaded it should pop back into neutral dead center between third and fouth gear. You could not mistaken it for second if you pull straight down to fourth unless you might have muscled it a little bit when shifting to different gear. No flame please :) Please correct me if I say anything wrong.

quite correct, the spring is your best friend for guiding gear selection.

Here's my little primer on accurate shifting when you're new to manual transmissions.

This is assuming the shift pattern:

1 3 5
--------
2 4 6 R

The shifter diagram is an illusion. You don't need to navigate two 90-degree turns on the way from 2nd to 3rd like it would have you believe. The path to your next gear, up or down, is one direct motion. The trick is hand placement on the stick.

Start in neutral. Get a feel for the resistance of the springs that return the stick to center by pushing it to the left and right as far as it will go. Now, place the palm of your shifting hand on the right side of the knob and cup it slightly ... guide it into first gear by pushing it forward. It should go naturally into 1st. Now pull it back towards you, keeping your palm on the right side of the knob, using mostly your palm for pressure. It goes into 2nd easily. Now, shift your hand so that your palm is directly on the rear of the knob and firmly(not forcefully) move the shifter forward. The spring should guide it to 3rd gear for you. Now, switch the palm to the top, forward side of the knob and pull straight back to 4th. Naturally, you'll want to put your palm on the left side of the knob for 5th and 6th.

Practice and respect the synchros (that little resistance you get going into gear, don't force through it, but yield to it until it yields to you)

Mike Shields's shifting primer is a must read (http://www.spdusa.com/shifting.htm)

Heheh, I said "knob"

Great instructions. I think this is what I do intuitively, though no one taught me. What I am trying to do now is learn the 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 routine. That takes a bit more finesse and, considering you do this when you want to accelerate quickly, I've really embarrassed myself a few times. No harm done, and I'm getting better at it.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Great instructions. I think this is what I do intuitively, though no one taught me. What I am trying to do now is learn the 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 routine. That takes a bit more finesse and, considering you do this when you want to accelerate quickly, I've really embarrassed myself a few times. No harm done, and I'm getting better at it.

I guess you mean down-shifting two gears at a time? I think the hand placement would be the same, you just need to get it into neutral quickly, first. From 5th to 3rd, for example, tug the stick out of gear with your fingers. It should center itself as you move your hand to the aft position and push the knob forward with your palm. One thing to consider is that it does not hurt the transmission in any way to pull it out of gear before engaging the clutch. Maybe this will help?

Originally posted by jdwk
Crusing at 50mph in 6th and downshifting to 5th did not provide the increase in acceleration that my car has going from 5th to 4th.
If you were cruising at 50 mph, you should have been in 5th gear, not 6th. Therefore, to accelerate, you would need to down shift to 4th, or even better, 3rd gear.

Rule of thumb for cruising speed gear selection - gear times 10. For example, 4th gear for cruising at 40-49 mph, 5th gear for 50-59 mph, 6th gear for 60+ mph. Then, you can usually drop down two gears safely (6 to 4, 5 to 3, etc.).

Originally posted by Keshav
I guess you mean down-shifting two gears at a time? I think the hand placement would be the same, you just need to get it into neutral quickly, first. From 5th to 3rd, for example, tug the stick out of gear with your fingers. It should center itself as you move your hand to the aft position and push the knob forward with your palm. One thing to consider is that it does not hurt the transmission in any way to pull it out of gear before engaging the clutch. Maybe this will help?

Actually, I meant upshifting, but its true both ways. If you think of 1-3-5 as the "top" and 2-4-6 as the "bottom", I find it easy to go from a top gear to a bottom gear in one smooth, fluid motion like you described. But when I really want to jackrabbit, I might run hi revs in 2nd then shift to 4th, meaning a bottom-to-bottom shift. Or 3rd to 5th (top-to-top.) I can do it, but it's not one smooth, fluid motion. I use the spring action to center the stick as needed, but it still feels like two motions: Pull it back, let the spring do it's thing, push it forward. Several times I've misjudged, and don't get right into gear so instead of that quick acceleration, I'm out of gear a couple of seconds hence the embarrassment of not taking off as planned. It just comes with practice and I'm getting better at it.

8_wannabe try placing your palm on the shifter in the position that Keshav describe earlier on shifting using the wrist and a bit fore arm motion, that might help you with the 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 shifting.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
What I am trying to do now is learn the 1-3-5 and 2-4-6 routine. That takes a bit more finesse and, considering you do this when you want to accelerate quickly

I hope I'm misunderstanding - are you saying that when you want to accelerate as quickly as possible, you shift 1-3-5 or 2-4-6 rather than 1-2-3-4??? If so - I hate to say it, but you're seriously short-changing yourself. I short-shift (rev higher in the lower gear, then skip a gear on the upshift) when I'm lazy and not in a hurry or have reached cruising speed, but for quickest acceleration you have to hit every gear. Skipping a gear will always be slower.

Regards,
Gordon

Especially in this car where you have to keep the RPM's high to get the torque you need. Your 1-3-5 might work better in the Cobra.

But you're missing out on half the fun, too. :D

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
I hope I'm misunderstanding - are you saying that when you want to accelerate as quickly as possible, you shift 1-3-5 or 2-4-6 rather than 1-2-3-4??? If so - I hate to say it, but you're seriously short-changing yourself. I short-shift (rev higher in the lower gear, then skip a gear on the upshift) when I'm lazy and not in a hurry or have reached cruising speed, but for quickest acceleration you have to hit every gear. Skipping a gear will always be slower.


Nope, you're not misunderstanding. That's exactly what I"m doing, a technique I learned on this very forum from someone -- judging from your comments -- who was just blowing smoke out his butt. He had some argument that this was how to accelerate quickest, so dumb me believed it. It really jacks me around where people throughout this forum post opinion as fact, and those of us who don't know any better just suck it up. So my bad for being so ignorant and I'll go back to driving as I was.

Glad to see you are human 8_wannabe.

To figure out your fastest shift points, you have to have a dyno plot. From that you want to shift when your torque equals the torque available in the next gear. That is torque at the wheels, which is engine/crank torque multiplied by your gear ratio and final drive, minus frictional losses.

Engineers usually select gear ratios that corresponds to the peak power of the engine for fastest acceleration, which is usally well before redline. In most cars, like my MX-6, it is pointless to hit redline in anything but first gear.

The rotary is a different breed of engine, and on the 247hp version, fastest acceleration is acheived by hitting redline and then some every time.

In the 238 hp version, however, you might need to shift a little earlier.

I suggest everyone read this write-up on HP vs Torque. I thought I had a pretty good understanding until I read this and it was then that I saw the light.

http://www.rs-productions.com/RSP_Motors/tech/hptq/hptq.htm

OK, since I am sick and actually enjoy doing this, here you go. I found a dyno of a stock RX-8, and I have the gear ratios.

Redline it in first.
Redline it in second as well.
Redline it in 3rd too.
Ah ha. Due to the big torque drop aroud 7400, you want to shift into 5th at about 8500. (don't take it to redline)
Same deal with sixth, shift at 8500.

This is going to be different slightly for every car, and you are going to need to dyno it to know for sure.

If I had the dyno in digital format like an excel spreadsheet, I could write some code to calculate 1/4 times and such shifting at different RPMs. I actually did this for my car by just using a ruler and figuring out the torque at every 100 rpms. Did I mention I was sick?

Also, from the dyno I saw, it is not worth it to take it past redline except in first gear where burrying the needle will help a tad, but I personally don't think it's worth the stress on the engine, or the embarassment of hitting the rev limiter.

Great explanation, jd. I don't have time to study it and understand in depth right now but sometime I will. I am totally not into dyno, but I'm sure many '8 drivers are. I just want the ride to be fun, and work my technique a bit but I am never going to push the'8 to its limits. There are many different motivations for buying this car. I've never had anything like a sports car before. The '8 just grabbed me and here I am, but I'm not gonna race or squeeze out all the torque I can. Not to detract from your explanation because I appreciate it, but no way am I gonna put my car on a dyno. It just doesn't interest me. I expect and hope a lot of people will follow your instructions; I think they will get a lot more from their car if they do. hey, sorry you're sick. Hope it's not the flu.

I think I posted somewhere how this isn't a 1/4 mile car, at least not stock. So most owners aren't going to dyno or drag race.

I have only dynoed once and drag raced once, but I rarely back down from a stop light or quick highway race. I did it for knowledge more than anything. My MX-6 is definitely not a drag car either.

The link to the HP vs torque is very good though, so if you get the time please read it. You may understand why a few us care so much about 25whp, when the car is so fun to drive anyway.

I think most of the owners that don't care about the gas mileage or HP are new to Mazda or new to the rotary. Most of the RX-7 owners seem to be complaining about it. While I haven't had a rotary yet, I have always owned Mazdas.

The Mazda fun factor is ingrained in me. So the RX-8, while superior to my MX-6 in almost every category, wasn't THAT much more fun.

My MX-6 actually has a little more torque, but a slightly bigger final drive. What makes the RX-8 so much fun (besides the handling) is gear ratios. They multiply the torque, and the 9000rpm redline is what allows the car to have such low/short/high numbered gears.

RX-8 MX-6 C5 Z06
1 3.76 3.31 2.66 2.97
2 2.27 1.83 1.78 2.07
3 1.65 1.31 1.30 1.43
4 1.19 1.03 1.00 1.00
5 1.00 0.80 0.74 0.84
6 0.84 0.50 0.56

FD 4.44 4.105 3.42 3.42

Tq 159 161 350 400

So in first gear, the RX-8 has an effective 2657 ft lbs, and the C5 has 3184 ft lbs (2924 in an auto). In first gear, you get pinned to the seat almost (5/6ths) as much as a vette. However, you will be nearing the end of second by the time the vette has to shift.

It took me a long time to understand this, so I don't expect everyone to understand it all. For some people, it is common sense.

This is why I was disappointed with the performance of the RX-8 on the highway. While most people don't drag race, everyone wants to get around a truck on the highway as quickly as possible. Or wants to speed up to get ahead of the Civic with the 120dB exhaust.

From 60-90, my car is at 3000 to 4500 in fifth. My torque is steadily increasing (from about 135 at the wheels to 145) and you can feel it, torque equals fun. I don't really ever need to downshift. But if I do drop gears, 60-90 is perfectly placed between 3750 and 5600 rpms with an added boost from the lower gear.

In the RX-8, I remember 60 being around 3500 rpms in sixth. It's around there. When I dropped to fifth, the torque curve is so flat that the 16% increase from the gear was not really fast enough. So I dropped to 4th, the 40% increase should have put me in the back seat.

But actually, your stock dynos have you at 131 peak. When you drop to fourth at 60-70 mph, you quickly hit the first drop off in torque, "yay" less torque. A drop all the way down to 120 completely negates the gearing advantage the RX-8 has. To top it all off, my car weighs 2650 lbs and has an equal coefficient of drag. So when I thought my car "felt" faster on the highway, I was probably right.

Now the smart RX-8 owners are going to jump and say, 60-90, put it in third gear. But look at your dynos, that's where you are really missing the HP. That is 6900-9000 rpms. It's a nice drop from about 125 to 100 ft lbs. Yes, this is the fastest way from 60-90, but a decrease in torque is the opposite of fun and winding up the engine that much for such a small gain is disappointing.

The RX-8 is amazing, but that 25whp is crucial to me as well as the 4mpg. I think Mazda will fix it, but who knows. Until then, I will wait.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Going from odd to even or even to odd gears I never have any problem. But skipping 2-4, 4-6, or 3-5 I find tricky. I've never landed in the wrong gear, but that's because I'm so cautious. If I think i missed I go back to neutral then into gear. This, naturally, makes for a very prolonged and awkward shift, and I totally miss the quick acceleration I was hoping to get. I'm still practicing; its much easier than it used to be and I miss more and more rarely.
When gently driving, such as around town, I usually go 1st, 3rd, 5th.
The ratios are close enough to comfortably allow this, and it keeps the revs below 3500 to conserve fuel.

Shifting back down is also not hard with these.

The one I find hardest is 6th to 4th.

Nicely said jdwk. I am also disappointed with the freeway passing; it is doable but would sure be better with a little more kick. I hope that your add-on works as well as it sounds canzoomer, I need to get on your list. What is the estimated delivery time if I ordered now?

Never mind, I just checked your main thread. Now, instead of zoom-zoom, it will be zoom-ZOOM!