I drove down to Wichita Falls, TX today and had my Stock tires Siped today. Belive it or not this was a recomendation from my mother.. Mother knows best right? :D

There was some freezing rain and light snow here in Altus, OK (I'm TDY in School) And the effect was quite noticable... The car really handled the icey roads alot better on the way home. (After the tires we're siped) No noticable wheel spin, and the car stopped with a lot more authority. Much like it performed when the tires and outside temp were warm. Keep in mind these are just my personal observations.

This might be something to consider for those who can't afford to buy winter tires this season. (New toys are expensive aren't they?.. hehe) It does provide a really nice improvement, however I'm sure it doesn't compare to a good set of winter rubber. Although, I'm satisfied it'll keep my butt and my beloved 8' going a straight line when I do have to drive it this winter.

-Jason Peters
B-52H Crew Chief USAF
(Soon to be E-3 Flight Engineer)

PS - I saw a nice lookin' yellow 8' while I was down in wichita falls... On Kemp around 1-ish.. (First time I'd seen an 8' on the road besides my own) Anybody from here?

I live in Wichita Falls and have yet to see one 8 around town. Trust me, I've been looking. I'm getting ready to get mine next month or Feb. Looks like I may be one of few in the W.Falls area. Hey USAF RX8 check your PM...

PM'd Right back at ya Tex :)

question about siping tires...

1. some say it wears out the tire more, others say it makes it last longer.. which is it?

2. some say it makes the tire quieter, others say the reverse.. which is it?
I think it would make it louder because the wear pattern created will cause the increase in sound.. (wears on the grip side of each siped "fin").

3. would this be beneficial for regular touring needs or is it mainly for improvement on slippery surfaces?

4. what is the typical cost of getting your tires siped?

WHAT IS SIPING??? I JUST DON'T HAVE A CLUE AT WHAT IT MEANS. DOES IT INVOLVE CUTTING A DIFFERENT TREAD PATTERN? PLEASE EXPLAIN

Originally posted by neit_jnf
WHAT IS SIPING??? I JUST DON'T HAVE A CLUE AT WHAT IT MEANS. DOES IT INVOLVE CUTTING A DIFFERENT TREAD PATTERN? PLEASE EXPLAIN

Same here...I've never heard of the term "siping". Care to fill us in?

http://www.sipers.com/sipers/how_siping_done.asp#

And your mom knew this? Go mom!

I too never heard of this. Even if I knew this before the Winter tire purchase, I'm sure i would have went with the snow tires, but it's always good to learn more.

Thanks for posting.

Hmmm.... I had never heard of that before. Interesting concept. I may have a hard time cutting my tires no matter how much I'm told how safe it is. I'm glad to hear it worked, though. I am interested in the long term effects of siping. ie: handling on dry pavement and tire wear... Anybody have any results they would like to share??

Siping has been around for quite a long time. It helps wet traction and snow traction on some tires, like all-seasons.

However - big warning here - it will do nothing for the tread compound phase change that happens with high performance summer tires, where the tread essentially 'freezes' and loses a lot of grip at below-freezing temperatures. Many people have reported that their tires seem slippery on dry pavement when it's cold out - that's the tread compound losing grip. Siping won't do anything to change that, so braking and cornering grip will still be greatly reduced.

Regards,
Gordon

Well Gordon, I knew you wouldn't resist throwing out your opinion on this :D hehe

As I said, I'm positive that this is not a replacement for a good set of winter rubber on your car. However it is a VERY noticable improvement. I'm not saying siping turns your car into a snowplow... but for $40 the car feels much more responsive on slick surfaces. (Again My personal driving impressions.) Thats money well spent in my book seeing as how I can't afford winter tires this season.

I still very much agree its best to keep the car put up. But, when I do have to drive it this season... At least me and my beloved 8' will go in a straight line.. hehe So, like I said definetly something to consider for those who aren't able to afford a good set of winter rubber this season.

Interesting! Will siping improve dry cornering in warmer climes like Southern California? Quiter, softer ride with increased traction sounds too good to be true, but I'm open minded about it.

It really baffles me that so many people can afford a fairly expensive car such as an RX-8 but can't afford a set of snow tires.....I just don't get it. With the high potential for an expensive mishap due to runnning the stock rubber on this car you think would be enough for people that live in areas that get snow to invest in a good set of winter tires.

I agree with Jag. If you live where you have a snowy winter, and knowing what tires came on the car, you had to plan on buying a set of winter tires.

One problem, though, is that many dealers probably could not have helped buyers forecast the cost of winter tires, because the dealer was probably not aware of what wheels would fit. After shopping, I was disappointed that an alloy wheel was required. This makes a winter tire set more costly than for most cars, but it's necessary if you're going to drive it all year.

Yep, I agree with Jag and zoom.

Zoom... I'd also have liked to go the "cheap steelie" route, but 1) they'd have never fit, and 2) they'd have looked like cr@p on the 8. On any other car, I wouldn't care.

But there's something about the 8 that just should never allow it to be seen wearing naked steelies. ;)

nice

all you need is a good razorblade and some patience.. hell all they do is slice the shit out of your tires.

Post from another board on this subject...

Scientific Test Prove Snow Traction Improvements Up to 200% by Saf-Tee Siping Process
PHOENIX, Oct. 30 /PRNewswire/ -- New independent tests prove that consumers who have their tires professionally siped can improve traction capabilities in cold-weather-driving on basic all-season tires and high-performance tires. The process, done by the patented Saf-Tee Siping equipment, can turn a good all-season tire into "severe snow service" status, and can improve low-profile, high-performance tires enough to go from free-spinning to the level of good all-season tires.

An independent company that has run thousands of tires through snow and ice tests conducted cold-weather-driving tests on selected contemporary tires in February of 2003 in Houghton, Mich, and the results indicate tires can gain significantly improved traction after undergoing the Saf-Tee Siping procedure. The Goodyear Eagle LS, a good all-season tire, and the Michelin Pilot Sport, a comparatively new tire that is original equipment on numerous high performance sedans and coupes, were chosen for this year's tests, which compared them to the Uniroyal Tiger Paw, the industry-standard base all-season tire.

On a controlled course in Houghton, Mich., all the tires were run on a drive wheel at 5 miles per hour, and then the test vehicles drive axle was accelerated until the tires broke traction. The vehicle maintained its 5 mph pace while data from the spinning tire was accumulated. The test and base tires were tested through 10 consecutive rotations a day, for three consecutive days, on a snow-packed test site maintained at a "medium compacted" level, with the temperature at 15 or 16 degrees. All data was gathered according to American Society of Testing and Materials standards or more technically none as the ASTM F1805-00 Gradient Correction Method.

The test tires all measured 205-55, mounted on 16-inch wheels. In unsiped form, the traction with the Goodyear Eagle LS measured 101 percent of the base tire; the siped Goodyear Eagle LS measured 134 percent of the traction of the base tire. That 33 percent improvement boosted the Eagle LS into the realm of "severe snow service," awarded only to tires that achieve 110 percent of the base tire's traction, and which the siped Goodyear easily surpassed at 134 percent.

The unsiped Michelin Pilot Sport read only 35 percent of the base all-season tire's traction. This was no surprise because this type of tire would normally be a free spinning slip-slide in these driving conditions. Two siped Michelin Pilot Sports were tested, with the SAF-TEE Siping process cut on slightly different depths on each. One of them showed an improvement of 93 percent of the base all-season tire, while the other improved to 103 percent.

Past tests have proven that tires put through the brief and inexpensive process on a Saf-Tee Siping machine improved traction to accelerate, steer and stop. The concern that the slits could adversely affect wear were eliminated because heat is the major cause of high-speed or long trips, and the siped slits also ventilate the tire treads and can improve tire life. Visit sipers.com or contact Saf-Tee Siping & Grooving at 800.223.4540 to review the scientific test results and get results from other tests conducted.

I too have never heard of siping (pronounced sigh-ping?). I can only guess that anyting that increases friction would have to increase wear. There is no free lunch on the traction vs. wear formula.

DeBug

i live outside wichita. there's a red -8 that is parked on scott st, between 10th and 14th (i think). driven by a lady, faik. i've yet to get an -8, but am patiently waiting til the time arrives. did you get yours thru herb easley? what kind of deal did you get? good experience? um... maybe these questions should be in a diff thread. my bad. i'll look you up when i get mine.

Just got my tires siped today. To my perception there is definately a quieter ride, which able to hear the sound of the engine more. As for handling, seems like traction is better and handling is more responsive. Hey for $40 you can't go wrong.

Hi performance summer tires stick well in part because of compounds and in part because their cornering limits are aided by their bigger, less-squirmy treadblocks and proportionately greater amount of rubber meeting the road surface.

Siping 'might' lower your dry-weather cornering traction limits somewhat because the cuts across the treadblocks effectively make them smaller, squirmier treadblocks. But unless you were constantly pushing the dry traction limit of the tire (and none of us do that, of course..) only your butt-dyno should be able to tell the difference.

It would be interesting to see a track-test comparison between a siped and non-siped high performance summer tire.

Glad it worked out for you Titanium.... I noticed the same improvments you did. That was the whole idea of posting this.. Just tossing more idea's out there to the 8' Community.

got my stock tires siped yesterday at the local Les Schwab tire center. $13 a tire and about 1/2 an hour. definetly noticed a quieter ride on the way home. we have some rain coming in the next day or so, i'll let you know if i feel a difference in wet traction. i don't expect to be able to feel it. by the way they use the Saf-T siping that was mentioned above.

This intrigues (sp?) me. I read the info on http://www.sipers.com/sipers/how_siping_done.asp site and WHealey's post above and the info. seems logical.

The Bridgestone stock tires on the RX-8 are only good for 12-15K miles due to their compostition. Gord pointed out a difference in this when the weather gets cold they get harder and Ned M pointed out about their sticky composition which I have noticed picks up the rocks on my side street a lot more than any other vehicle I have ever owned.

However, since there are only a few thousand miles life on this tire and due to the fact that the reason some of us cannot afford to go put out $1.2K to buy a set of rims and tires because all of the 18" stock is sold out everywhere, this may be an alternative for some light winter weather driving until next year.

I didn't get my RX-8 until after the winter stock got sold to the lucky few who already had their 8. I also didn't budget the additional $1.2K when I decided to get mine either because I didn't know that the tires sucked in the snow, from what I read the other specs sounded great for winter such as the rear differential configurtation, Traction control and 50/50 weight distribution. Some of us have a family also so we have to save up to get any extras such as the set of winter tires with rims, Canzoomer's Stage 1 ECU add on, Borla cat backs, etc. It sounds as though I will have to be buying a set of OEM tire replacements by next year at the same time I will be purchasing a set of "real" winter tires and rims so I will have to save up some $s. Buy early, buy cheap

I live in central IL and have located a tire siping location in Peoria so I might just get this done as a cheap test, as soon as the weather clears up sometime next week. Right now my RX-8 is sitting at home in my driveway covered in snow and ice. (Next year, I'll have my garage cleaned out enough to park a car in it! Where can I get a cheap dumpster around here? :) )

Anyway, after I get this done I'll post something on a "real" test of siped tires during the winter and later for the summer, wear and traction differences with mileage repots.

After reading up on siping (I'd heard of it years ago but thought it was retarded), I went out and had it done today, so here's my assessment:

If you can't afford/can't find dedicated winter tires, go out and get you TIRES SIPED!! It really works.

By no means is it a substitute for dedicated winter tires or all-seasons, but if it's all you can afford/find, it's well worth the $10 a tire it will cost you.

Don't get me wrong... these tire STILL SUCK @ss in snow. But AT LEAST you won't get stuck in 1 inch of snow and look like a frickin imbicile.

My @SS-O-METER concludes that siping added around 20-25% more grip than the stock 18s. Keep in mind that 20% better than sucking @ss, still sucks @ss... but a little less @ss is better than a whole lotta @ss.

Basically, without siping, driving on the stock 18s in the snow was the equivalent of being strapped to the front of 200HP bobsled with 4 airbags. Now, it's more like a cheap snowboard (still sucks, but a little better control).

Hope this helps anybody still on the fence about siping!! $40 bucks just might save you a head on collision.... just my 2 pennies...

who needs snow tires?

Hey HeavyArms, that really sucks @ss! LOL

I'm in that boat of not being able to afford it right now so I guess I'm going for the siping soon!

Your statement "but a little less @ss is better than a whole lotta @ss." holds true when talking stock tires on the RX-8 but not true when talking @ss! :)

At least you have confirmed there's a degree of improvement over stock and even with that, I think I can manage. My last ride was a Dodge Dakota and I never got stuck and never weighted the bed. It also had a slip differential rear end that helped out quite a bit. I'll just be doing in town driving and they do plow very well here.

Guess it's time to make an appointment in Peoria, just hope it's a nice day.

Originally posted by D MENAC 7
Hey HeavyArms, that really sucks @ss! LOL

I'm in that boat of not being able to afford it right now so I guess I'm going for the siping soon!

Your statement "but a little less @ss is better than a whole lotta @ss." holds true when talking stock tires on the RX-8 but not true when talking @ss! :)

At least you have confirmed there's a degree of improvement over stock and even with that, I think I can manage. My last ride was a Dodge Dakota and I never got stuck and never weighted the bed. It also had a slip differential rear end that helped out quite a bit. I'll just be doing in town driving and they do plow very well here.

Guess it's time to make an appointment in Peoria, just hope it's a nice day.

Yeah, your @ss @ssessment was right on when it comes to other forms of @ss!! hahah :D

But seriously, Christmas wiped me the hell out, so 1200 bucks is a little out of my budget now. Siping will get you through the light snow without having to have a coronary everytime a truck rolls by... trust me, it'll happen. I've been sideways around 5 times... NOT FUN. Luckily, I didn't hit anything, but my blood pressue has never been the same. If I wasn't going to work, I wouldn't even drive the d@mn thing... I was too scared of it. I had my life flash before my eyes a few too many times in one day.

So, in short, siping can be good for your health!! Especially if you're flat @ss broke! :D

I have the yellow 8. Siping sounds like a good idea.
Jag: If you look at the post you might realize USAF_RX8 is in the Air Force, as am I, and that Uncle Sam doesn't pay us a whole hell of a lot. So forking over $1200 is a lot of dough to some people.
Murln: I got my 8 at Herb Easley.
USAF_RX8: Where did you get your siping done? Thanks.

After driving across town from work to home and having a small snow storm which was only supposed to be snow showers, on my non-altered stock tires, it took me 35 minutes to get there where it only takes me 20 or less on a normal day, I decided I needed to do something about the tires and traction. Locally I could have gotten some Michelin Alpin Pilots for $865, however, I don't have that available to me at the moment. Since I had to file bankruptcy in a divorce 5 years ago, I can't get the credit to accept a short time loan as such. (Yet they will loan me the money to buy a $30K+ car?) Fortunately as I was standing waiting to be turned down for the financing, I saw they just began to offer Siping. There were no other decisions to be made, I got them siped.

My assessment is the same as HeavyArms and USAF_RX-8. I went immediately into an empty parking lot covered with packed down snow and tested it out. I got better traction and more control both taking off and stopping. It was a very noticeable improvement. I had trouble getting out of the driveway to get there but afterwards, I could pull in and back up with ease. A lot of winter driving control also depends on experience of doing such. I know that I need to take it very carefully when driving in these adverse conditions.

This is definately NOT a substitute for winter or all-season tires but it is an alternative for us budget minded until we can save the money for purchase of a set of winters on rims for next year.

Just got mine siped at Discount Tire for $40. Hopefully I won't need to find out if they help in snow. If all the facts on the website are right then it should help with performance and tire life. We'll see.

I'm taken aback by the amount of people siping their tires. I've been aware of siping for many years now, and as JHouse put it, it really is just cutting the hell out of your tires.

PLEASE, before you sipe, consider this:

Each tire is designed for a specific purpose. Bridgestone/Firestone dedicated a LOT of time in the R&D for the production of the RE040. The premise that any tire service center can improve without any cost on the tire's performance by cutting slices into a tire is absurd. GRANTED, any additional cuts into the rubber can and will provide quicker water evacuation, and will have the weight of the car distributed upon less rubber in contact with the ground.

HOWEVER, siping a tire will COMPLETELY destroy the tires speed rating. If you do not plan on using the tires again in the spring or summer, GREAT, otherwise you must consider the destruction of the speed rating and the high performance characteristics of the tire.

Basically, with siping, you're turning a high performance tire into an all season(due to tread design), very short life tire(due to rubber composition). Buying a set of winter tires is much cheaper than replacing (due to the destruction) of high performance tires!!

Just a thought to keep in mind before you sipe.

Otherwise, happy siping!!

--Landon

THe RE040s are only good for about 15000 miles anyway. That's an average years mileage on most cars. I'm not planning on doing above 80 often and definately not above 100 so I am not worried about the Speed rating come summer.

The cuts are micro in size, you can't even see them without trying to spread the rubber. The cuts aren't deep trenches cut lateraly across the tread but are shallow scallop latteral cuts. The big difference is the amount of give the tread now allows when it's freezing out. This giving creates more traction for winter and cools the tread in the summer by alowing air to reach depths it could not penetrate before. The same amount of rubber is still on the ground it's just twisted a microscopic bit further due to the siped cuts.

Since this is a lateral cut across the tread, this should not effect cornering, it doesn't give when forces are from the side, it only gives in a rotational force.

As these tires do eventually need replacing, I assure you that I will not buy the same tire. I will eventually change to an Ultra High Performance all-season tire with a decent review of many former purchasers. I have decided that the area I live in isn't prone to heavy snowfall such as places further north so an all-season should suffice in 99% of the weather we do receive.

Hmmm... IF the cuts are shallow, then I'd imagine that after a thousand miles or so, you wear the tire down to the uncut rubber. So, after winter's done; just do a burnout and you have your original tread pattern back :cool:

The cuts are done till they are even with the bottom of the groove of the tire. They really are microscopic.
Landon Starr I don't know where you got the info about ruining the life of the tire. I have not found anything about that (outside of OPINIONS on this forum).
Dugs Rx the sipes will last as long as the tread on the tire.
My neighbor had his done on a Z3 20k miles ago and has had no problems. Also I checked at Discount and 10 of the guys working Sat had their tires done including the owner. If it shortened the life of the tire why would people that work there do it?
It rained today and I took a turn faster than usual and had no problems. Usually the back end wants to go out.
JD

Originally posted by Landon_Starr
very short life tire(due to rubber composition).
--Landon

Read a little more carefully before you start spitting flames. I didn't say it hurt the tires' life. I was just referencing the existing rubber composition of the RE040 (safe to say short life???). Some are only getting 12000 miles out of them.

The rubber composition of the RE040 (140 treadwear rating or something like that??) will wear more quickly than another all season tire (200 - 320??).

I nowhere said siping damaged the life of the tire. Just that in siping the RE040 you're getting the wear of a performance tire and the performance of a cheaper all season tire.

I probably should have clarified better, sorry.

--Landon

Holy Cow! This post is still alive?!? :D

Sorry for the lack of replies to those who have asked me questions.. I've been in the middle of a move to OKC.
I'm glad a few people have had success with siping their tires. And for the record the previously explained @ss comparison by our good friend HeavyArms is entirely accurate! :p

Anyhow, just happy the tip has helped a few other 8 owners out there. :cool:

Originally posted by USAF_RX8
Holy Cow! This post is still alive?!? :D

Sorry for the lack of replies to those who have asked me questions.. I've been in the middle of a move to OKC.
I'm glad a few people have had success with siping their tires. And for the record the previously explained @ss comparison by our good friend HeavyArms is entirely accurate! :p

Anyhow, just happy the tip has helped a few other 8 owners out there. :cool:

Yep, this post is still alive and these tires still suck @ss in the snow. :D I've put a few hundred miles on my siped tires and they're still working as well as they did the day I rolled outta the DiscountTire parking lot. Money well spent.

I've got 6600 hundred miles on the X and around 9k to go before the the tires are toast. So even if the tires wore out faster (which they don't, I've been watching them everyday. i had a car that ate tires in like 1200 miles... @ssed out alignment, long story, don't ask.... so watching the tread is now a habit) I'd need new tires around summertime anyway. So if you're halfway through the life of your tires and worried about treadlife (which you needn't be), sipe em. What's the worst that could happen? You get 4000 miles more out of them instead of 6000? Big deal... not gonna happen anyway.

In short... don't be afraid of siping. Siping is your friennnnndd... :eek: Sure it sounds kind of of weird at first, but so does telling people your car don't have no freakin' pistons.

Got the RE-040s siped at good ol' Discount Tar this afternoon for sixty bucks. That's more than I've paid for the same thing out West on larger truck tires, but as Waylon said "ah, but that's the way it goes". Actually, I think it was Townes Van Zandt who said that.

I tossed 'er around pretty good (~40F temp, some damp spots, TC/DSC off) on the way home, and my too-long-uncalibrated butt couldn't feel a down side.

The reason for slicing up me rubbers is that I have to make a trip from South Carolina home to Colorado and (hopefully) back next week, and real snow tires are just not in the cards. If I survive, I'll let y'all know whether I feel that siping did any good. I can tell you that, on the glare ice which passes for a winter storm here in Carolina, RE-040s are capable of transmitting approximately zero torque.

{{{{

Update: Tossed 'er about a bit more today -- light rain w/some sleet, ~32-36F, TC/DSC on. There's quite a noticeable difference in straight-line accelleration -- TC intervention is decreased compared to similar conditions on same roads. Cornering seems unchanged, and I didn't try the brake limit. I really didn't expect to be able to feel a difference in rain, but there y'go! I'm impressed. I certainly wouldn't sipe my autocross tires, but just might do it on my Miata's ES-100s.

It's off to the great unthawed tomorrow morning. First test will be US 25 & I-40 through the Blue Ridge, where they're getting a touch of solid water tonight.

{{{{

After reading this thread - and really not able to locate winter tires in 225/45-18 - I decided to have my RX8's tires siped. Have appointment at Discount Tire tomorrow. Will report back my impressions.

In this part of Indiana - we have a very short 'Winter' but rain and freezing rain is not uncommon.

I don't plan on using the RX8 much in borderline weather and never in true winter weather so siping may be the way to go. At $10 /tire I'm not risking much.

Originally posted by RX8_GT
After reading this thread - and really not able to locate winter tires in 225/45-18 - I decided to have my RX8's tires siped.
The only thing is that the stock performance tires are made with a much harder compound than winters. So the traction (even on dry pavement) may not be that good in the cold weather. FWIW

Understand that this will not make them snow tires or even all-season. But a little more grip would be helpful. I will drive a SUV when the weather is dodgy without a question. I don't want one of my babies in the ditch. Generally the temperatures will be in the high 20's to low 30's. Thanks for the info

it's been a week since having my stock tires siped. The traction is greatly improved on slick roads with a light covering of snow. Last night it started sleeting and I had no problems what so ever. My side street has yet to be plowed and the snow pack is slick but with litle effort I get going and keep it in a straight line.

The stock tires are not harder than winters. Thses performance tires are soft and sticky when it's warm and hard as a rock when it is freezing out. That is the main reason for no traction, there is no give to the tread to allow for traction. Siping allows the tread to give some which in turn allows traction. Not a lot but just a little which is more than none.

I agree - just back from having the tires on my RX8 siped. Cost $40 at Discount Tire.

Marked improvement on the icy (and 1 to 2 inches of snow) roads on the way back. Not the same as dedicated snows - but improved.

Not replacement for winter tires - unable to get up my sloping and icy driveway !!! but given I cannot readily get snows this season. Even having trouble with the driveway in my SUV !

Braking improved much more than traction in my limited 50 mile run home.

Hoping to get up to Canada end of next month - with the sniping and emergency cable tire chains - and a willingness to stop and wait for roads to improve - I should be OK. We'll see.

John

Instead of spending $1200+ for snow tires on an expensive sport car, just spend $2000 on a beater. Mine is a '92 Honda Accord. 14" tires are dirt cheap and even if it does hit the ditch, will I be upset? Not in the least bit! I didn't buy an 8 to drive around in the snow, plus, having a beater means being able to keep miles down on my shiny new baby. Just another option FWIW.

That being said, I may end up with dedicated snow tires for the 8 anyway, since I have a set of Enkei 17" rims with Pirelli P7000 Supersports from my Ford Probe. Haven't checked yet, but they should fit the bolt pattern on the 8 (5 lug, 114.5 mm) as they fit the FD's - not sure about brake caliper clearance though. The P7000 SS's are outstanding in the snow also, for those looking for a good all-season performance tire.