I found the below on a Mercedes News Group that I frequent. It is from a satisfaction survey that was done of buyers in Germany.

<snip>

Quality over image

The competition is not surprised by the results. Speaking from the Essen Motor Show, which opened on Thursday, Mazda's Peter Tuhl told Deutsche Welle that Mazda's position in the top five reflected the Japanese company's enduringly high technical standards.

He said a Mazda owner experiences "lasting satisfaction." A German car owner, on the other hand, is more like a "disappointed lover who realizes the first promises aren't going to come true".

<snip>

For the whole article link:

http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1431_A_1044433_1_A,00.html

So what you're telling us is a Mazda representative told some germans that Mazda is a good thing and german cars are like "a disappointing lover?"

http://boutell.com/~boutell/images/stupidity.gif

Mercedes is the matron of honor, RX-8 is the hot chick. I will take the hot chick!

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
So what you're telling us is a Mazda representative told some germans that Mazda is a good thing and german cars are like "a disappointing lover?"

Actually it helps if you read the first few line of the article linked to.

Basically two separate surveys in Germany by a German car magazine and an auto insurance company both independently show that Germans prefer Japanese cars over German ones for everyday use and customer satisfaction. In fact the top 7 brands are all Japanese with Porsche coming 8th and VW and Mercedes coming 31st and 32nd. I didn't even know there were 7 Japanese brands - must be all of them. Toyota is first of course.

However for image the Germans still prefer good old Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc (German brands fill top 5 solts) - they just don't like driving them daily because they don't work very well.

Originally posted by pelucidor
I didn't even know there were 7 Japanese brands - must be all of them. Toyota is first of course.

I can think of 11 off the top of my head

Isuzu
Honda/Acura
Nissan/Infiniti
Mazda
Mitsubishi
Subaru
Suzuki
Toyota/Lexus

Infiniti and Acura are not sold in Europe. I forgot about Suzuki and Isuzu, as one should - I don't think Suzuki cars are sold in Europe and I doubt Isuzu came in the top 7.

Originally posted by pelucidor
Infiniti and Acura are not sold in Europe. I forgot about Suzuki and Isuzu, as one should - I don't think Suzuki cars are sold in Europe and I doubt Isuzu came in the top 7.

hmm...so what are the rest of the Japanese manufacturers? i can't think of anymore other than those...

I guess whoever is left from your list probably makes up the 7: Toyota, Subaru, Honda, Mazda were explicitly mentioned in the article and I assume the others are Lexus, Nissan and Mitsubishi.

Originally posted by pelucidor
Actually it helps if you read the first few line of the article linked to.

Basically two separate surveys in Germany by a German car magazine and an auto insurance company both independently show that Germans prefer Japanese cars over German ones for everyday use and customer satisfaction. In fact the top 7 brands are all Japanese with Porsche coming 8th and VW and Mercedes coming 31st and 32nd. I didn't even know there were 7 Japanese brands - must be all of them. Toyota is first of course.

However for image the Germans still prefer good old Mercedes, BMW, Audi etc (German brands fill top 5 solts) - they just don't like driving them daily because they don't work very well.

I don't think you accounted for the subjectivity of the poll. Let me draw a picture:
In america, how many diesel crankers 1970s and 1980s mercedes do you see out and about? Now take that to Germany/Europe and multiply by 1000 + taxis. Now in America, take how many pre-1990 mazda's you see out and about? Not too many, but lets take that number and divide by 10. That leaves us with about .01 pre-1990 mazda's in Germany.

So, for everyday driving, no German would say they think mercedes are unreliable. let me repeat: NO GERMAN WOULD SAY THEY THINK MERCEDES ARE UNRELIABLE, and certainly no german would say a japanese car is more reliable than an american. You think americans have a patriotism about their big honkin' chevy's and fords, well its more so in Germany with BMW, MERC, and AUDI. And no to mention the tons of different models they see that never grace Japanese or American shores.

So in conclusion, OUT OUT YOU DEMONS OF STUPIDITY!

You are wrong. Read the article. 38,000 German car owners were surveyed and put Mercedes at 32nd spot for customer satisfaction (mostly for reliability issues). Ten years ago Mercedes would have come top (and deservedly) but with the decline of this once great brand due to chasing market share (moving downmarket) at the expense of quality, the reliability and materials are in the crapper and everyone knows it - especially in Germany. Your comment on 1970's taxis is nonsense - every time I have visited Germany and Belgium the taxis are the latest model E-class with some S-class and C-class (typically less than 3 years old).

Aside from this poll (with the same results repeated many times by groups like JD Power in Europe and Consumer Reports here) I would like to add that I have been following the auto industry news (not just cars) as a hobby for 20 years and lived in Europe for 25 years (in the UK but did a lot of traveling around Europe as an international consultant for many years). To me the decline of Mercedes has been obvious since the introduction of the 190E and became significant when the legendary W124 was replaced with the previous E-class.

Go and read this weeks autoextremist (www.autoextremist.com) for an interesting view of where Mercedes stands today and where BMW, Porsche and Jeep are heading (written by a consultant for Daimler Chrysler with decades of auto industry experience BTW).

The good news is that even Mercedes admit their problem with quality and reliability (even if you don't) and are trying to recapture what they once had. The new MB CLS will be the first of the better built models, with the new S-class following - sadly prices will be increasing to go with it.

Your comment on 1970's taxis is nonsense - every time I have visited Germany and Belgium the taxis are the latest model E-class with some S-class and C-class (typically less than 3 years old)."

That was my point. The taxis are mercedes throughout the world. The taxi drivers NEED reliability and comfort, so why not pick out a mazda protege or camry?

We have a 1987 300sdl and 1989 560sl with 550k miles between them. The 300sdl drives like a dream still; you didn't address my point that you RARELY see any japanese cars that are older than 7-10 years.

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
The taxis are mercedes throughout the world. The taxi drivers NEED reliability and comfort, so why not pick out a mazda protege or camry?

i do not believe that most european nations have Benz's for taxis because they're more reliable than Japanese...i believe it's because they're cheaper than importing Japanese...if you go to Japan, the taxis will surely be Japanese, and if you go to America, the taxis are American...it's about costs...i really doubt taxi drivers look for reliability, they're poor and just need to either lease or rent a taxicab from the taxi dispatch company that is somewhat affordable

Originally posted by BRx8
i do not believe that most european nations have Benz's for taxis because they're more reliable than Japanese...i believe it's because they're cheaper than importing Japanese...if you go to Japan, the taxis will surely be Japanese, and if you go to America, the taxis are American...it's about costs...i really doubt taxi drivers look for reliability, they're poor and just need to either lease or rent a taxicab from the taxi dispatch company that is somewhat affordable

So then why in non German euro countries are the Taxis usually german cars? I'm not saying that I think German cars are reliable, but just wondering how this would follow with your logic.
In most euro countries where they make their own cars the most common taxi and rental cars are still german.

Ike

German cars cost a buttload to repair. :(

Originally posted by IkeWRX
So then why in non German euro countries are the Taxis usually german cars? I'm not saying that I think German cars are reliable, but just wondering how this would follow with your logic.
In most euro countries where they make their own cars the most common taxi and rental cars are still german.

Ike

well i've honestly never been to Europe so i wouldn't know what they drive over there...whenever i watch shows located in England, the taxis are usually those really small English cars, no? all i know is, in Chicago at least, the taxi drivers "rent" or lease their cars from the taxi dispatch...so it's not as if taxi drivers themselves choose what kind of car, they're usually all the same...and considering domestics are far cheaper than imports, one would assume that the taxi dispatch companies would choose cost over the comfort of their drivers...i dunno, that's my logic and resistance is futile

Cumpressor- the reason that I read that mercedes newsgroup is because I currently service four of these things for myself and various members of my family. They being a 1972 280 SE 4.5, 1986 560SL, 1990 2.5 Turbosdiesel, 1991 350SDL turbo diesel, and I can tell you from very painful experience that mercedes went to crap starting in 1991. My girlfriend's mother's '92 500SL has been a broken money pit of gadgetry. The 350SDL is an indescribable horror of blown head gaskets, alternator, water pumps, transmission, generator, gauges, window motors, window switches . . . and that's with a paultry (for a mercedes 147,000 miles most of this actually going wrong before 100,000 miles. My girlfriend's mother's current CLK AMG55 has had it's engine completely rebuilt at 2,700 miles for a beyond salvage engine block. Apparently the genius at AMG put a piston in with the offset wrist pin to the wrong side. The '72 works OK, that's mine, the '86SL is genius at 90,000 miles. It looks as if it has hardly rolled off the showroom floor. In my opinion Mercedes peaked in the 1980 model year in which every car ran like brilliant armored tops. The '80 300SD is by far my favorite mercedes of all time, but those days are over. Listen to the things current owners are saying, and listen to this report, and JD Powers who ranked Mercedes in the bottom half of all companys for initial reliability last year in the US.

However the only reason that I posted this thread is that I thought the language about a mercedes being a

"disappointed lover who realizes the first promises aren't going to come true".

was hilarious! How European a metaphor. That is such a romantic thing to say, and I doubt anyone in the US would ever think such a thing much less say it about a car.

Look, you like mercs. I like mercs. There is something wonderful about them in their heaviness, their teutonic manners, but they aren't what they used to be. I agree with Pelucidor that when mercedes decided to sell a volume product, that product got to be a very average product with too many gadgets and not enough quality control. Mercedes is building a car which is in direct competition with Hyundai FOR PRICE (the C Class) and according to Automobile Magazine last year, the Hyundai is a better car. I'm glad that you like your cars, but you obviously have not been following these things since the 80's.

And one last thing. You may not agree with the article, and that's fine, but it is very rude to call me stupid. Please refrain from being so rude in the future.

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
you didn't address my point that you RARELY see any japanese cars that are older than 7-10 years. [/B]

You gotta be kidding me right? I see 7-10+ year old jap cars all the time. If for reliability alone, I doubt that there's any better german car that's more reliable than a corrolla.

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
you didn't address my point that you RARELY see any japanese cars that are older than 7-10 years.

While this is questionable, if it is true, it would be for a good reason: Japanese cars are economical. It makes sense for someone to trade in their Japanese car for a newer model; however, German cars kill you on resale value and depreciation, meaning people are forced into holding onto them for longer if they want to get their money's worth. I know because I'm stuck with a 94 BMW now.

Just to back this up one more time... get a consumer reports auto issue. They use an insane number of responses from their owner surveys to rate cars on reliability.

You may not agree with their reviews - I often don't - but their reliability information is surprising. They love to drive BMWs, Volkswagens, Audis, and Mercedes, but they rarely have them on their recommended buy list because of very poor reliability.

One of my coworkers just bought a '93 Mazda Protege. My old boss drives a '92 Accord. Another guy is near 200,000 miles with his early '90s Civic hatchback. The executive in charge of our division just sold his '87 RX7 for an RX8. Old Japanese cars are everywhere around here (Philadelphia).

"Listen to the current owners"

I am...I'm shouting very loudly to myself. We can agree to disagree, but stop quoting car and driver + consumer reports as proof that these cars suck. The 5 series was WIDELY recognized as the best vehicle on the road by these magazines. And their loathing of mercedes is well known and obvious.

How would an engine make it to 2700 miles with a wrong piston pin? That makes no sense to me, especially with AMG, and ESPECIALLY the fact that no check engine/malfunction light came on. It gives me a malfunction when I go lower than 1/8th a tank of gas.

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
"Listen to the current owners"

I am...I'm shouting very loudly to myself.

One respondent does not constitute a statistically valid sample. If every single car a company produced displayed flaws, they would immediately go out of business. Even the absolute worst automobile makers nowadays have lots of their vehicles go to 100,000 miles without problems.


Please pay attention to what we are saying, and Car and Driver is saying, and Consumer Reports is saying. They are not saying that BMW and Mercedes make bad cars. They are fast, good handling, solid, luxurious, and a blast to drive. It just happens that the reliability has gone downhill. I'm glad your car has worked fine, but a lot of other people have had problems.

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
"Listen to the current owners"

I am...I'm shouting very loudly to myself. We can agree to disagree, but stop quoting car and driver + consumer reports as proof that these cars suck.

How would an engine make it to 2700 miles with a wrong piston pin? That makes no sense to me, especially with AMG, and ESPECIALLY the fact that no check engine/malfunction light came on. It gives me a malfunction when I go lower than 1/8th a tank of gas.

I am not using magazines to come up with my opinion. I am using the rather junky cars my family owns along with the reports of various other people that I know. To tell you the truth, most magazines seem to like mercedes, BMW and the like, but they are enthusiasts and seldom look 100,000 miles down the road.

As for the AMG, it did set a light for low oil, over and over again as it burnt quart after quart. It then totally failed a compression test, which led to opening the engine to find a completely scored cylinder wall, at least that's what the dealer mechanic said. Not that he said it to me. I happened to overhear it in the parts department while I was buying a part for the 350SDL which pretty much sums up my current experience with mercedes.

I hope that your C230 treats you better than these are treating us. All the best.