I know we talked about it before, but is anyone actually coming out on Monday? To recap its full and pro-track all day from 9am until 5pm, drive as much as you want. Price is $160.00 you pay at the gate. If we can get 5-6 people to actually go I will come out (sans blown up race car) and help everyone with basic set up and some track skills etc. I will even bring my trailer incase someone has problems.

I definitely want to go.

I definitely want to go != I definitely is going...doh

Yes Josh, that's correct. And that's the way I wanted to phrase it.

Well thats 2!

I can't I have to work :banghead:

Work on Monday? What is your job Thumper?

If we dont get more than 2 guys its not worth the drive all the way out with my truck and trailer etc. Its Wednesday, need to know by tomorrow if its a go!

Mosport is closed for the lapping season eh...

Shannonville is fun folks..go go go!

Work on Monday? What is your job Thumper?

I work for a bank, and the US market is open, so we need tech coverage for dumb ass brokers for when they brake something. I said I would do it over a month ago, before I knew anything about lapping this Monday. DAMN IT!!!!!

Still just 2

al you willing to trailer my car out there and back to save gas? lol

get in line pal :P

So do we have a count of who is actually going so far??????

I want to go but I cant be there for the whole day as i have thanks giving dinner that afternoon.....is there a cheaper price if I stay until 1pm instead of 5pm?? I dont want to pay 160 for 4 hours of lapping.

yeah im in but only if alans coming i figure its worth the 160 to have someone give me tips for the day.

Yo... I'm gonna see if I can pull out of Ottawa early Monday.. in which case I'll drop by on the way back... don't think the car's in a condition yet to take it out on the track just yet... but... we'll see how stupid i feel at that exact moment.

I'll be there!

Free instruction from a racecar driver is definitely a plus.

Confirmed so far, aka Winners:
1)Kafka
2)Alrib
3)Nate

Definitely maybe:
3)ThEIf
4)Faded
5)Gecko69 - dunno about the half price...probably not

US market open need to work (aka fail):
6)Thumper3322
Too chicken to get his car dity:
7)Footman
Need $$ to pay for study:
8)Jay is Gay Yay

And how about the rest?

I hate working on the long weekend friday. Apologize for paying the hate forward lolz

I will have to check with the wife about the full price then....I will post back tonight by 9pm for sure either way.

Geck its ok...just post here to update us...


Quote, originally posted by TechEd »

With various discussions taking place on improving or evaluating the R32 suspension, I’m inspired to create a post instead of contribute to one. For those interested, my intent is to illustrate how I’ve seen the subjective nature of assessing a vehicles handling performance change over the years, with new enthusiasts entering the fold and existing ones become complacent. As an old fart that started out in the early 70s, I’ve witnessed an odd evolution as the various brand performance models have improved significantly in the handling department, yet enthusiasts seem less and less able to appreciate what they actually have. I see that they’re quick to pick up the voodoo doll that is suspension mods on chassis that are incredibly competent to begin with, and start poking away. My goal is to have open-minded enthusiasts stop and think about how they actually form handling perceptions prior to soliciting “silver bullet” setup advice and the purchase of various parts.

I suppose we can all agree that subjectivity, personal preferences, influences and expectations are broad and variable in regards how well or how badly a vehicle, any vehicle, is perceived to handle. I see many here and elsewhere that neglect this, and, in the absence of a proper (or in this case, more technically based) interpretation of what the chassis is communicating to the driver, embark on searches for the magic “silver bullet” setup that apparently applies equally to everyone. It is the man-machine interface at odds with one another. Here then, are some insights gained over the years as an enthusiast educator and engaged competitor. Why do I bother? In the case of the new MKV R32 in particular, it may save you money. If you like stories, I’ve got two to share.

In 2003 I’m invited to instruct at a track day at Shannonville Motorsports Park. In the morning session I have two ride-along students in my stock GTI 1.8T (on Bridgestone S-03 PP), showing them the braking, turn in, apex and track out points. Within ¾ of a lap I had gained on, and was eventually held up behind a new MKIV R32 with New York plates. He was obviously struggling with the car, placing it improperly, overdriving some corner entries or braking too early and accelerating too early though others. Accelerating too early with huge steering angle inputs and wisps of smoke from the inside wheel wells seemed to be his “style”. I also noticed that his inside rear wheels would lift completely off the ground on turn in and during steady state sections, and that the car was bucking badly when the rear wheel touched down again. Talking to my ride-alongs meant a personal pace of 8/10ths. Now being slowed by the R32 gave me the opportunity to use the performance of the R32 as examples of how not to drive. A lap later, the R32 driver waved us by in the designated zone. Within two laps at a continued 8/I0ths I was ½ track ahead of him.

Returning to the paddock, the R32 driver approaches me and asks if I’m chipped. Of course, I say no. I ask why he had no instructor with him in his car. He states he did not sign up for instruction because he felt he didn’t need any …he drives up from New York state to Shannonville with his buddies for the odd weekend, and they run the Friday night, open pay-per-lap events.

He shares with me his utter disappointment in the R32. Despite being highly recommended by magazines and friends, and says he’s considering selling it. As I observed the inner rear wheels lifting, and remembering this not being the case on colleague’s and student cars here in the US, I ask him why he uses a bigger rear sway bar and suggest it’s silly to have a rear wheel off the ground when the Haldex wants to send power to that wheel. He gives me the “how do you know I’ve got a bigger rear sway” look, and confirms my suspicion. He then goes on to state that installing the BRB didn’t “cure the understeer” he was getting on freeway on/off ramps and on spirited country drives like his friends said it would, and mentions the sneaky oversteer tendencies catching him off guard on the street. When I suggest the objectionable levels of understeer and oversteer are his doing, he gives me another blank stare.

I confirm his tire pressures to be okay and climb behind the wheel of the R32 with the owner in the passenger seat. We start to circulate, and for the first laps I drive exactly like he was. What a mess! “See”, he says. “What a pig!”. I then point out all the driver input issues under which the chassis was suffering. I then changed my method to that befitting the R32 as I came to learn it on colleague and student cars. I found it responds well to a very patient, deft hand and progressive weight transfer inputs, due entirely to its reactive nature to AWD Haldex effect. When a difference in front to rear axle speeds is detected, the Haldex transfers some of the power to the rear wheels. This action tends to push extra longitudinal tractive forces over the front tires that have already broke traction due to dealing with both power and steering forces, especially on corner exits. I drive large, smooth arcs with only subtle corrections, and even later apexes than with a FWD chassis. A big arc, with gradual transitions to wide open throttle (WOT) only when the steering wheel approaches center, is the key to making any R32 handle, and make it fast.

The new ride is like a totally different car to the now speechless owner. But even I’m leery of a heightened tendency for lift-throttle oversteer, which the owner confirms has seen him almost spin out on a wet off-ramp. We swap seats and I coach him, lap after lap on the technique specific to the R32. I notice immediately that he’s either behind or too early with his inputs, and that he carries way too much speed into corners (a typical bad habit learned by many on the street). He’s also not looking far enough ahead. Within 5 laps he’s got the basics understood and applies them better and better with each lap. At the end of the day, he’s finally circulating cleanly, smoothly and with progressive inputs that do not upset the chassis …which was the original deal-breaker in the first place. He’s improved his pace by doing less physical work. He’s smarter and faster. Oddly, I remember him saying he was “gobsmacked” (whatever than means) at how “the car has changed”. I remind him that we never touched the car in any way. He still says the “lift throttle thing” is still a little scary for him, but that he actually feels the threshold of it approaching in his butt, where he did not before. With the oversteer tendency ultimately worsened by his now almost empty fuel tank, I mention that can be improved by filling the tank and swapping back to the OE rear bar. Replacing the Goodyear F1s with a better set of tires is also recommended.

At the end of the event, he’s absolutely beaming with pride over his new R32. He says that selling it is out of the question now, and he’s happy to not have to spend more money on the car to blindly, and ultimately unsuccessfully, change the car to try and suit his former driving skill level. He admits relevance of his experience to his daily commute and spirited outings with friends.

The names and cars change, but the outcome as in the above story is repeated countless times every year at instructor-lead HPDE events, and ultimately makes the roads just a little bit safer for the rest of us. Learning by doing always saves the day.

Eons ago, in 1993, we decide to run our Jetta and Corrado VR6, as well as our spare team Corrado VR6 in the Valvoline Canadian Endurance Road Racing Championship 12 hour endurance event at Shannonville. Class preparation spec at that time is SCCA Showroom Stock. A previous CASC OR Formula Ford season champion, Craig Priddle, applies for and joins our effort as the second driver in our spare Corrado. We’re happy to have a seasoned pro in the team.

He climbs in for practice laps and proceeds to circulate. I look at the stopwatch and see he’s between 6 to 10 seconds off the pace of the primary driver (whose previous qualifying effort saw him second on the grid). I wait for a gradual improvement, as the current delta to the No. 1 driver is a killer for an endurance event. After 10 laps there is no improvement, so I radio him to come in. He climbs out and proclaims the car an absolute piece of crap. We confirm that the setup did not change, debrief him using his in-car videotape. We see immediately that he’s driving the Corrado like he drives his Formula Ford open wheeler; using the throttle as an on-off switch, carrying too much momentum into corners and flailing with brakes that work much less effectively than the FF. We show him footage from the primary driver and coach him on what he should and should not be doing with the heavier, less grip, hot hatch. We do not touch the car in any way. He then snugs up the belts again and posts a time only 2/10ths off that of the No. 1. Bingo! He climbs out of the car proclaiming that it’s the best FWD car he’s ever driven in his life! I remind him that we never touched the car in any way.. Learning by doing saves the day.

If there is a moral to these stories, it is that, regardless if you are an inexperienced, relatively green newbie, a seasoned champion or anything in between, the potential to be at odds with negative perceptions and subjective assessments formed without reflection applies equally to all. It’s no surprise then, that these individuals simply deny or don’t understand why the subjective view is potentially flawed. These forums are no exception. In each of the stories above, the individuals refocused and learned to appreciate how good the vehicle really was in a context proven to them in an inarguable, applied manner by others. All it took was taking the time to concentrate on what I call, “learning the language of the chassis”. In the subjective sense, most enthusiasts listen and hear “something”, and then either ignore it or struggle to interpret what they feel/hear. Just like with any language, the key within the man-machine interface is to learn the language of the chassis, interpret it correctly and drive accordingly. If only more individuals would do this, there would be less negative bandwidth on how current OE performance model cars “do this and do that and …you need to buy this part to fix this handling shortcoming”. This advice totally overshadows the technical aspects of managing the compromises that are always associated with making any sot of changes.

If you’ve otherwise convinced yourself that a modified production based suspension makes you happier than before, and the cost was worth it, the fact remains that a stock, unmodified car driven with competence will always outperform modified equivalents driven with average skill. Should an intelligent, moderate approach to lowering be chosen, increased skills will make such choices safer, as needed for the more abrupt weight transfer that is guaranteed with lower and stiffer.

So, where then do handling shortcomings really lie and how can we intelligently upgrade a production-based chassis? The answer lies in what Pogo once said: ”We have met the enemy, and he is us”. Seriously, it all depends on one’s goals and expectations in light of the fact that it’s hard to find a performance sedan or hatchback nowadays that is a complete dud out of the box. Heaven help those choosing to declare winners and losers, or split hairs as the Internet and magazines want us to. They are all, very, very good indeed, and every one of these chassis will suffer in some form or another should the balance between looks and performance tip further and further towards looks. If we wish to find our way out of the subjective minefield that surrounds the enthusiast scene as it has evolved in the “post Internet” and current buff mag era, the answer for many can very well be: The grey matter between the ears, my friends …the grey matter between the ears.

Cheers,
J.

Anyone want to come and work for me so I can go? I will give you half of what I make for a day which will be more than enough!

Heh its alright man...work is work.

I think this is the last track day of the year for most of us though. Probably gonna put my snow on next month or so...

I know!! that's why I want to go.

Count me in for Monday. As for you guys... SEE YA LATER. VP SAYS GO HOME!

Confirmed so far, aka Winners:
1)Kafka
2)Alrib
3)Nate

Definitely maybe:
3)ThEIf
4)Faded
5)Gecko69 - dunno about the half price...probably not

US market open need to work (aka fail):
6)Thumper3322
Too chicken to get his car dity:
7)Footman
Need $$ to pay for study:
8)Jay is Gay Yay

And how about the rest?

I hate working on the long weekend friday. Apologize for paying the hate forward lolz

k so we got one more winner yay

I'll be on Bowmanville on Monday morning. I'll split the bill, with Gecko, he take morning, I take afternoon.

Let me know if this can be done.

will ask Al...hes friend with organizer but dunno if that can be done since its TWO cars...with different colours. Black and silver?

pros that would be great.........I dont see why it should matter.............they will still be getting the 160 and there will only be 1 car there at one time....anyways that would be sweet!!.....if that is the case then I am in for sure!

Sorry dudes each driver pays not the car thats the way they run it.

Who is meeting atthe dealership on Monday morning??

ok...what time are you guys getting to shannonville??? count me in for sure. I will be there at 9am......also, do they charge for a passenger??

ill meet you at the dealership what time should i be there

Count me in Al for dealership trip thx...we swapping R1 tires on Sat night or before?

I will meet at the dealership.

We will be leaving the dealership at 7:15 no matter what! You better not slep in Josh!

I am so looking forward to a bunch of 8's going around the track with the rotary roar...

for shizzle ^:ylsuper:

have some family issues to deal with today...I hopefully will still be there tomorrow am but am not 100% sure at this point.

Here we go Kafka............................lol

im heading into welland tonight, i wouldn't mind spending the night in Toronto thu so i dont have to wake up a 5am tomorrow if anyone has room for a friendly black guy to spend the night pm me or something thanks

Just so everyone knows we are leaving Scarboro Mazda at 7am tomorrow, get to the track by 9-930am. If yo uwant to drive out with us thats great, but we arent waiting for anyone. Please be here no later than 7 if you want to cruise out.

WE ARE LEAVING FROM Scarboro Mazda at 7am tomorrow.

GO SLEEP NOW.

NITE THX.

U guys that are going all SUCK!! I am sitting at my desk, up since 6am pissed I'm not at the track. And it's gonna be a sweet as day. Hope one of ya takes some pics and video!

Have fun boyz!

I had to head into work at 7pm last night as there were 3 traumas that came in from emerg that needed immediate Cardiac interventions so I got home at 8am this morning and I was still going to go when I woke up at 10....but then realized I would be paying 160 for about 2 hours of track time as I have thanksgiving dinner this afternoon at 4pm......I am pissed I am not there as well....hope everyone has a good time.

I will upload all pics to Photobucket, but in the meantime, here are mine.

http://www.new.facebook.com/album.php?aid=40073&l=1cc1d&id=507437560

1)PLEASE REMOVE THE LICENSE PLATE NUMBER FOR CARS IN YOUR PICS uploaded in future
2)please send me pics of my car with your camera. PM me for the email. Thank you.

1)PLEASE REMOVE THE LICENSE PLATE NUMBER FOR CARS IN YOUR PICS uploaded in future
2)please send me pics of my car with your camera. PM me for the email. Thank you.

Yes boss. I think in the future, we should just tape our plates so we don't have to manually edit shit out.

Yes boss. I think in the future, we should just tape our plates so we don't have to manually edit shit out.

Yeah...Albert did that..We should print out something like "Kafka/Flammer" "Thief/Fist Exhaust" lol ... Let me ask where Albert got his Sprint Solo GT thing....

Actually it doesn't do much for me, since the GM where I get my service from and the Rx8 mechanic was in the same car at one point with me in the track...*wink*wink :lol:

Yeah...Albert did that..We should print out something like "Kafka/Flammer" "Thief/Fist Exhaust" lol ... Let me ask where Albert got his Sprint Solo GT thing....

Actually it doesn't do much for me, since the GM where I get my service from and the Rx8 mechanic was in the same car at one point with me in the track...*wink*wink :lol:

We should blow these up and cover our plates with them :D

Write up coming soon...yesterday is full of win...

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn116/heartofkafka/2008_09_Shannonville/DSC_4857.jpg

Did the four of you have the track to yourselves for some laps?

Your yellow really stands out amongst those dark 8's!

It looks like the mob boss and his goons (body guards)

:lol: hell ya it does, that's funny!!

Yes since the mob boss is the slowest we need to cover him... :P j/k

Thief did exceptionally well for a noob on track. He didnt even spun out like I did last time :P

I hate monday post coming up soon...

Hurry up with the post, I'm bored and want to read what I missed out on

link is up :)

I hate mondays and I have to post (except its a TRACK DAY ON MONDAY) (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=158522)