can u add a intake to the rx8 because it opens diffrent valves at diffrent rpms?. And if so it would prob sound like a vtec

...do some searching and research on this: you'll realize that a CAI (rolleyes... hard) probably wouldn't be a good comprimize for this car...

Originally posted by eclps0
... it would prob sound like a vtec
No it wouldn't.

becuase the hodas with vtec have diffrent timing just like the rx8 at a certain rpm range

Now, do you mean "sounds like" as in aurally, like a VTEC, then it's still no--piston and rotary exhaust notes are very different from one another, regardless if they are NA, FI, VTEC, or otherwise.

Of course, if you meant "sounds like" conceptually, then perhaps so, however still unlikely. The intake system on the 8, at the moment, seems to be tuned very well to maximize the engine's performance at each area of the powerband. A CAI may not have as big of an effect of performance on a RENESIS as it would on a VTEC'd piston counterpart.

Originally posted by evel333
[BThe intake system on the 8, at the moment, seems to be tuned very well to maximize the engine's performance at each area of the powerband. A CAI may not have as big of an effect of performance on a RENESIS as it would on a VTEC'd piston counterpart. [/B]

Are you mistaking CAI (cold air induction) with the standard tube and filter that all the Ricers like to slap on their car? The reason I ask is a true CAI will drop the intake air temp and increase the density of the intake charge. A piston engine and a rotary will respond exactly the same to this density change. An ~7 deg F drop in intake temps will correspond to a 1% power increase.

Of course, the RX-8 intake system seems quite sophisticated and may already have CAI. If so, there will still be guys that make the old tube and cone filter. They may even get a few extra ponies on the top end but kill the low and mid ranges.

Originally posted by wakeech
...do some searching and research on this: you'll realize that a CAI (rolleyes... hard) probably wouldn't be a good comprimize for this car...

Why is a CAI a compromise? I currently have a 00 Jetta VR6 with an AEM CAI and it's increased my fuel economy and hasn't affected the pull at low engine speeds, but increased the pull at WOT during higher engine speeds. I would think that colder air is the goal for any combustion engine, which in turn would create a much cleaner, more efficient burn.

Please correct me if I'm wrong with the rotary engine. I've done a lot of research regarding the development and function, although haven't gotten into the modification scene of it all that much.

TIA
James

...Lou was reading my mind...

VWJet:

Originally posted by babylou


Are you mistaking CAI (cold air induction) with the standard tube and filter that all the Ricers like to slap on their car?

the RX-8 intake system seems quite sophisticated and may already have CAI. If so, there will still be guys that make the old tube and cone filter. They may even get a few extra ponies on the top end but kill the low and mid ranges.

The tech rep at the Rev it up event said that one of the aftermarket guys (Racingbeat?) tried playing with intake mods (not FI) with no success. It sounds like the stock intake is pretty optimized across the board.

Originally posted by VWjet
Why is a CAI a compromise? ...Please correct me if I'm wrong with the rotary engine. I've done a lot of research regarding the development and function, although haven't gotten into the modification scene of it all that much. It's not an issue with the fact that it's a rotary. It's got to do with the way that the intake system in the RX8 is setup. The multiple intake paths, which are opened at different rpm speeds, could also be employed in a piston engine.

The reason why a standard CAI (tube and cone) won't work is because you eliminate all of the benefits of the multiple paths. It would be like removing a Honda's VTech, and replacing it with a single cam that is between the two VTech cams. One of the intake paths does already incorporate a "cold air inlet". And if someone can relocate the others without affecting the tuning, then there should be some benefit. But getting it just right will take alot of trial and error, and I don't see too many aftermarket companies doing that, because that extra R&D would probably price it out of the market.

---jps

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of multiple paths for airflow are within the intake manifold. I don't think anyone is talking about replacing the mani... just replacing the stock intake tube and the stock restrictive airbox and filter. Get a higher flowing filter and lower intake temp and I can't imagine why you wouldn't see gains in power.

Originally posted by racerxeight
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of multiple paths for airflow are within the intake manifold. I don't think anyone is talking about replacing the mani... just replacing the stock intake tube and the stock restrictive airbox and filter. Get a higher flowing filter and lower intake temp and I can't imagine why you wouldn't see gains in power.

It sounds like the stock is pretty optimized, so that it would not really change anything.

if a after market intake would make 2 to 5hp more don't you think mazda would it done it . if you think about it is all a head game when it come to intake they make more noise and also for looks thats about it.

Mazda is to worried about reliabilty and emmission regs to push for any more power right now. I'm sure they got some more tricks up thier sleave. Its a dynamic market someone will find a way to improve on Mazda's work. It just might take awhile. I'll be waiting.

Originally posted by racerxeight
Mazda is to worried about reliabilty and emmission regs to push for any more power right now. I'm sure they got some more tricks up thier sleave. Its a dynamic market someone will find a way to improve on Mazda's work. It just might take awhile. I'll be waiting.

if there was any significant amount of power tied up in the intake, don't you think it would make a WHOLE LOT of sense to go ahead and make sure they get all that they can based on the capability of the rest of the system??? if there are weaknesses in the rest of the system, gross improvement through the whole system would maybe then warrant some "improvement" (read: more biased to top end comprimise) in the intake system.

yes, the RENESIS isn't at its highest and most fuel-consuming level of tune, but it has little to do with reliability. emissions may be a reason, but the largest is fuel consumption: what consumer really ACTUALLY cares about the emissions level of their car, unless (as in Europe) they have insurance insentives to get a car that has lower emissions?? rate of fuel consumption is a far more important issue to most consumers, second to power.

...in regard to the "performance aftermarket" industry: the people that work at these places aren't even close to the cream, as the top of the top all go to work for the factories, designing miracles like the RENESIS, not "designing" the shape of a tube (dictated by the existing architecture of an engine) and throwing a cone on it.

[/rant]

to really make significant improvements in the HIpower engine, you're gonna have to get that sucker apart, as by 9k rpm, the ports are already starting to choke the engine down, not to mention if you really wanted to make serious power, you'd have to get the revs UP... like another 1k or so: then you'd really have a beast.

...sorry racer... ... don't mean to go picking on people.

Originally posted by racerxeight
Correct me if I'm wrong, but all of multiple paths for airflow are within the intake manifold... The multiple paths of the intake system go beyond the manifold.

---jps

I think the aftermarket will design something other than the intake system to boost the performance of the rx8. I remember when SCC tested the 350z and tryed to build a custom titanium exhaust...they lost hp...but after much r&d ... japanese tuners and other rotoary experts will come up with something.

I think a proper CAI can make more rwhp, but at the expense of more sound (which is a good thing with some people). There are usually 2 resonators on the intake (maybe more with the RX8). One for sound, and one for back pressure (caused by port closure). The harmonic resonator (1st res.) causes a restriction. Some power can be made here. Intake length reduction will also add power (as long as you’re not pulling in hot air). But the key to keeping the low end power and adding to the high end power, is keeping the 2nd resonator. Most of today's aftermarket intakes take advantage of shortening the intake track and removing the harmonic res. but remove the 2nd resonator. That's why allot of aftermarket kits will gain high end power at the expense of low end. I proved this with my Jackson racing CAI (for a Miata) mounted on a 88 RX-7 with the 2nd resonator plumbing still attached. I gained back the 5rwhp between 2500-3800rpm I lost when I put the entire kit on originally. This also worked on my Miata. (this same kind of back pressure is caused by valve closure).

Although, I firmly believe that the best "power adder" for the RX-8, other than a turbo or SC, will be a programmable ecu. It will be able to optimize the port opening, fuel map, inj %, rev limit, etc. Hopefully something like a LiNk or Haltech, that allows the user to change settings with a laptop or a onboard control pad.

can you explain or direct me to a website that explains the theory behind intake resonance, and how resonators actually do what they do?

Originally posted by ProtoConVert
can you explain or direct me to a website that explains the theory behind intake resonance, and how resonators actually do what they do?
exhaust resonators I know dampen the sound and air flow of exhaust fumes. however I have never heard the term "resonators" referring to a chamber or area that pertains to the intake system... maybe its different for rotary

first, yes there are such things as intake resonators, and secondly, the wankel motor isn't an entire universe of difference: outside of the box, it's all the same.

anyhoo, the intake resonators just keep the intake noise down (at least they do on Ford Escorts... *sigh* if you must know i kinda started with that particular motor as one to learn about tuning on)...

exhaust resonators are your basic baffle-type muffler (same deal). intake resonators are (yes) a muffler for the front half, as far as i know (i could be very wrong, never really looked into it, as they're pretty damned useless).

The second resonator is right before the intake manifold. It's an external (sometimes part of the intake piping) plastic box with a pipe leading to it from the intake track on most cars. I know the Escort GT has one- here's a pic.

Here is my current setup on my Miata. Intake plumbing was reduced by 3 feet, intake "rams" cool air (which I believe the RX-8 already applies) and I modified the stock intake track to keep the 2nd resonator.

Oops, sorry for the poor text in the image. This should be better

On the RX-8, the variable intake duct is BEFORE the air cleaner (it's a two-headed snorkel, one is a curved primary with a straight in secondary where the duct opens at 7250 RPM), so unless the aftermarket integrates this into their product, they would basically be screwing with the volume and velocity of air going into the intake manifold throughout the RPM range. The aftermarket piece would likely not be worth the cost of R&D given these considerations and the likely negative affect on performance.

Looks like a K&N panel filter will be the only cost effective intake mod for the RENESIS.

I really don't think the stock setup will have maximum efficiency due to the explanation above (sound muffling). I do think, the only way to make decent numbers is by doing both intake, and exhaust. I think with an intake, exhaust, and ecu, the RX-8 will be close to 300hp (crank). I'll probably do some dyno runs with mine once I break her in. That might not be very soon....I'm looking at buying a 2005.

Originally posted by Ren-gen
...I think with an intake, exhaust, and ecu, the RX-8 will be close to 300hp (crank)... Shyeah, right...

---jps

i think i'm with sputnik on this one. 53hp is a 21% gain...that's uh...quite a bit for just intake and exhaust...what an ecu would do i don't know power already drops off at 9k rpm would going to 11k help?

I'm talking about a total replacement ECU not a piggyback. My Miata with intake, exhaust, cat, muffler, and Link ECU has 155hp crank from the stock 115hp. It's not impossible at all. I think there could be even more, with the RX-8, because of the multiport intake. Remember, these are "crank" numbers not rwhp. With a good ecu you can program the injector cycles, fuel maps, ignition, inj. %, rev limit. I don't see it being impossible at all.

Lefuton: do you have a dyno plot of the RX-8? Or a Japan website with one? I haven't seen one yet. The one in the FAQ just represents the crank power and just gives a general look on it's powerband. I think there is a good chance the hp can keep building with a higher rev limit. If the curve starts to dip @ 9K, that just proves my point that there's a restriction and the factory unit can be improved.

Originally posted by Ren-gen
I'm talking about a total replacement ECU not a piggyback. My Miata with intake, exhaust, cat, muffler, and Link ECU has 155hp crank from the stock 115hp. It's not impossible at all. I think there could be even more, with the RX-8, because of the multiport intake.With a good ecu you can program the injector cycles, fuel maps, ignition, inj. %, rev limit. I don't see it being impossible at all.


but what we're saying is that the RX-8's hardware is already pretty optimized for the tune of the engine. the variable-length runner system on the intake side isn't holding back power, it's already optimized for upper rpm power, but can run the air 'round the long way for better low-rpm performance too.

"it's" not impossible, but you're making assumptions which i know are wrong; the thought that the RENESIS, with another 50 potential horsepower locked up in it, somehow choked down on both sides is fairly proposterous... i'm not trying to be an ass, but that power just isnt' there with this level of tune: it's not a Civic engine, there just isn't that much to free up with "bolt on"s...
to get the entire system up to spec to make 290hp, you're gonna need as much work on the engine itself as the ancillary stuff around it (ecu, intake system, exhaust).

Originally posted by Ren-gen
Lefuton: do you have a dyno plot of the RX-8? Or a Japan website with one? I haven't seen one yet. The one in the FAQ just represents the crank power and just gives a general look on it's powerband. I think there is a good chance the hp can keep building with a higher rev limit. If the curve starts to dip @ 9K, that just proves my point that there's a restriction and the factory unit can be improved.

the dynograph in the FAQ isn't an estimation, that's what the torque curve is like.

chance has nothing to do with power, it's all about the real specifications of the system: it's quantifiable, presice, and real.
the problem with your higher rev theory, which i've been building up to, is that you won't continue to see more power gains, even with "bolt on"s which are tuned perfectly to run those higher rpms, because of (arguably) the most important internal feature in an engine: the ports. the ports on the RENESIS have been tuned to make good flow at all operating rpm, which means that they're not going to do so well at 11k... in fact, Buger thought (at least at one time) that the ports might be the biggest restriction in the system at 9k, the biggest reason there is the beginning of the drop in the torque.
the first thing that need "less restriction" are the ports in the engine... with some nastay bridges, a 11k redline could be usable...

but to make 300 hp at 10.5k rpm, you're gonna have to generate 150ft/lbs, which is like 95% of peak torque... not impossible, as you say, but that's quite a feat, no matter who you ask.

Originally posted by Ren-gen
...My Miata with intake, exhaust, cat, muffler, and Link ECU has 155hp crank from the stock 115hp... Shyeah, right.

---jps

Yes, I'm sure that Mazda made the RX-8 optimized for maximum hp based on emissions and everyday driving conditions. But they certainly DID not get Max hp out of this engine. There is NO way they can with today's emission regulations. Yes, this is just speculation but I do believe after working on several V8's, Vtec's, I4's, there is hp to be had. The variable intake works like VTEC (except no cams) so with the ECU, you would be able to program them to open @ different rpm's. So yes, it may have allot of gain with bolt on's like Civics. You would probably have to buy some dyno time but I don't think I'm "preposterous" in saying the RX-8 can attain an extra 50hp from intake, exhaust, and ecu.

P.s- If the dyno plot in the FAQ in correct the RX-8 has absolutely NO DRIVE TRAIN LOSS...wow, the Mazda engineers were better than I thought.

Ren-gen:

The Renesis induction system is not at all like Hondas V-Tec. V-Tec varies valve lift, duration and induction timing each time a cylinder aspirates. The newer IV-Tec also continuosly varies valve opening relative to the induction stroke. The Renesis does not vary duration or timing. I will agree that the auxiliary port can be considered an analog to variable lift.

Another point I want to make is induction tuning will have no effect on emmissions. Zero, zip, nada! In addition, induction tuning will have a miniscule effect upon fuel efficiency (pumping losses). This is simple ICE engineering. So Mazda did not make some sort of compromise between emmissions and performance or fuel efficiency and performance on the induction system.

So to sum up I say yes it is "preposterous" to believe that 50 hp can be had from simple induction, exhaust and ECU mods. Please understand, we all wish it were possible and would all do it if so but it just ain't so.

Well, I think that instead of a 3-path variable length intake we could have a continuously variable length intake system something like the one on the R26B?

Actually, intake induction has everything to do with emissions (at least on OBD II). The AFM is responsible for telling the computer how much fuel to feed the motor, to give a good a/f ratio for the current rpm. The computer gives this mixture a tolerance...if this tolerance is broken, (readings via the two o2 sensors) your engine will lean out its mixture to meet the computer specs for emission purposes. That's why it's very rare to see any gas mileage loss in induction tuning. This is typical for Mazda ecu's (they are not very learnable). With a programmable ecu, you would be "allowed" to get the extra fuel and air into the engine.

The new "Jet air" system the RX-8 posses, also has me wondering why Mazda didn't go with direct injection. Why would they engineer an air pump to air push fuel through the ports when direct injection would do the same thing but with better efficiency (mpg, hp, emissions) and fewer parts to boot.

This argument can go on for ever until someone starts tinkering with their new RX-8 which I doubt will happen for awhile. And until then, I'm still standing ground on my 30rwhp from bolt ons.

Originally posted by Ren-gen
Actually, intake induction has everything to do with emissions (at least on OBD II). The AFM is responsible for telling the computer how much fuel to feed the motor, to give a good a/f ratio for the current rpm. The computer gives this mixture a tolerance...if this tolerance is broken, (readings via the two o2 sensors) your engine will lean out its mixture to meet the computer specs for emission purposes. That's why it's very rare to see any gas mileage loss in induction tuning. This is typical for Mazda ecu's (they are not very learnable). With a programmable ecu, you would be "allowed" to get the extra fuel and air into the engine.

This argument can go on for ever until someone starts tinkering with their new RX-8 which I doubt will happen for awhile. And until then, I'm still standing ground on my 30rwhp from bolt ons.

Dude, you are simply mistaken and in more than one area. The freaking AFM (likely a hot wire anemometer) is gonna stay if AEM or whoever does their cone filter on a tube setup or if someone made some sort of continuosly variable induction system. The AFM is part of the ECU system and will not go out of its zone of authority from some simple induction modifications.

Also, the ECU does not "allow" extra air into the engine. The engine draws in the air based on throttle position and the AFM senses the mass of air drawn in. The AFM then signals the ECU as to the mass of air inducted and the ECU draws from a map as to how much fuel to inject. During part throttle operation only the ECU will also refer to the first O2 sensor to fine tune the process. The second O2 sensor is only in place to test the effectiveness of the catalytic converter.

OBD2 has nothing to do with any of the crap you are spouting. OBD1 systems respond exactly the same as OBD2. The second O2 sensor is part of the OB2 setup but as previously stated has nothing to do with engine control.

What do you mean you stand by your 30 hp. Wasn't it 50 hp?

Obviously my posts aren't getting read by some people. I'm NOT stating the RX-8 can make 50Rear Wheel HP!!!!!!! 50 CRANK...yes....not 50rwhp.

The AFM is controlled by the factory ECU....if this factory ECU is "R-E-P-L-A-C-E-D" by an aftermarket unit (example: Haltech, Link, AEM), the AFM runs on the new code....YOU ARE IN CONTROL. Fuel maps, rev limit, etc etc. As far as letting in more air, you are right. I meant increased air from stock. The ECU has fuel map tolerances....if there is extra air beyond this tolerance, the fuel will not be factored in. Now whether an aftermarket intake will go beyond that tolerance, that's doubtful, but a Supercharger would definately cause this.

OBD I systems acted very differently from OBD II. OBD I's have a physical flapper AFM door which obstructs the intake. OBD II runs on the hot wire. OBD I has a 1 wire O2 sensor which isn't as accurate as today's OBD II 4 wire. OBD I's have only one o2 as opposed to OBD II's two. And yes the 2nd o2 have everything to do with how the engine runs. It doesn't just test if the CAT is working.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over this. I'm just stating there is extra hp there, emissions and noise aside.

Originally posted by Ren-gen
...I'm still standing ground on my 30rwhp from bolt ons. Either you're backpedaling, or you have a unique calculation for drivetrain loss.

---jps

Originally posted by Ren-gen
Obviously my posts aren't getting read by some people. I'm NOT stating the RX-8 can make 50Rear Wheel HP!!!!!!! 50 CRANK...yes....not 50rwhp.

The AFM is controlled by the factory ECU....if this factory ECU is "R-E-P-L-A-C-E-D" by an aftermarket unit (example: Haltech, Link, AEM), the AFM runs on the new code....YOU ARE IN CONTROL. Fuel maps, rev limit, etc etc. As far as letting in more air, you are right. I meant increased air from stock. The ECU has fuel map tolerances....if there is extra air beyond this tolerance, the fuel will not be factored in. Now whether an aftermarket intake will go beyond that tolerance, that's doubtful, but a Supercharger would definately cause this.

OBD I systems acted very differently from OBD II. OBD I's have a physical flapper AFM door which obstructs the intake. OBD II runs on the hot wire. OBD I has a 1 wire O2 sensor which isn't as accurate as today's OBD II 4 wire. OBD I's have only one o2 as opposed to OBD II's two. And yes the 2nd o2 have everything to do with how the engine runs. It doesn't just test if the CAT is working.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over this. I'm just stating there is extra hp there, emissions and noise aside.

You say we do not read your earlier posts but you seem to change focus quite quickly. Pissing away:

Now you are saying that the OEM equipment is not good enough for a blower. What happened to just changing the intake, exhaust and ECU?

There are tons of OBD1 cars that came equipped with hot wire anemometer air flow meters. Aren't 94-95 1.8L Miata's equipped with a hot wire AFM and are OBD1? There are tons of other cars that have bben equipped with hot wire AFM for 15 years.

The ECU does not "control" any AFM. As previously stated, the AFM simply measures the mass of air entering the engine and relays this measurement to the ECU.

Do you know what all of those extra wires on the O2 sensor are for? I thought so.

And you are freaking wrong the second O2 sensor crap too but I am simply too bored to deal with this one.

easy guys,

I am pretty sure there should be some improvements possible by modifying the air/fuel mixture. Now this could either be because of an improved (if possible) intake, or to the detriment of the emmissions. With the restrictions of the emmission laws over here and programming for premium fuel i'd say these should be very noticeable on the high power model.

BTW who manufactures the ECU's for the RX-8? I am hoping for a few extra ponies myself (low power :eek: ). Judging by your low power power, and our emission laws i'd have thought 500rwhp should be easily possible. I will then bide my time until I get it supercharged to power levels more befitting a £20k 4 seater.


:D

30 hp is typical drivetrain loss for the Miata. Since the RX-8 has a similar setup, (PPF, transmission) but with a bigger clutch and beefy rims I'm guessing it would be more....only the dyno will tell the truth. Mazda's hp claims have been proven to be a bit dramatic at times (2002 Miata...155hp), but Mazda corrected this later in the year. With 30 hp drivetrain loss, yes I would be backpedaling because that would be only 280hp crank. (220rwhp + 30 rwhp +30hp crank loss).... I'm sorry.

Babylou: yes 94-95 had hot wire afm's on the OBD I system....I stand corrected. The OBDI and OBD II do have there differences though.

As for the control of the AFM....The aftermarket ECU uses this to gather the info for the mixtures that is controllable by you (not the voltage signal coming from the AFM, but the fuel itself through the fuel map.) Richer mixtures would have better hp numbers...simple fact. (at the cost of mpg, and emissions). This is only 1 factor too. There’s still rev limit (which may or may not give more hp based on port size), inj cycle, inj %, ignition zones, TPS, EGR control (turning the EGR off, to allow WB02 sensor tuning)

The 2 extra wires on the 02 sensor are for heating (one power, one ground). This allows them to get up to operating temp. quicker to allow the ECU to receive accurate readings sooner during cold start.

If you think the 2nd o2 sensor is just to make your engine light go on when your cats not functioning, you’re wrong. Try and straight pipe an OBD II and you'll know what I mean. (KA-chunk!)

Does anyone know what the differences are between the engine in the RX-Evolv concept and that in the RX-8? The Evolv supposedly put out 280 bhp. Now, I realize it wasn't a production car, but I thought it was a drivable test platform. My point is they must have made some compromises to get from 280 down to 250...maybe they can be unmade in the aftermarket?

jds

The Evolv engine was a fantasy engine with a fantasy hp number. How many show cars that enter production actually match the quoted power at the show? About none.

It was not a fantasy engine, it was a real engine that underwent extensive testing, not just in the Evolv but well before that. The reasons why production engines don't generally make the same numbers as the concept predecessors is because production cars need to be concerned with things like emissions, noise, fuel economy, drivability by "normal people," etc. The point being that people who make aftermarket modifications to their cars in the quest for more power are not usually "normal people" that care about many of those other factors...they just want more power.

jds

Originally posted by babylou
The Evolv engine was a fantasy engine with a fantasy hp number. How many show cars that enter production actually match the quoted power at the show? About none.

After looking closely at the Cdn RX-8 brochure, I've noticed a couple of things. The muffler is longitudally mounted with exhaust pipes exiting from each side. Nice for packaging and the apparently compulsary dual exhaust (=sporty) look, but nowhere near as efficient as a couple (why not just one?) straight-through cannister mufflers. Also, the log-style manifold and pre-cat seem to be integrated into one unit. Switching to individual runners (and bypassing the precat) would surely make more power. While I don't encourage cat removal, I don't care about precats so much because they are primarily useful for just the first couple of minutes of engine operation until the main cat is warmed up. Kind of ironic how our society feels that having lower emissions on start up justifies the measurable decreased fuel efficiency from it's equipment, what causes more harm in the long run?

Rotaries like to breath (don't know if it's more or less with the new side ports though). My guess is that 25-30 crank HP (with a main cat) can be found simply through uncorking the exhaust.

Originally posted by bureau13
It was not a fantasy engine, it was a real engine that underwent extensive testing, not just in the Evolv but well before that. The reasons why production engines don't generally make the same numbers as the concept predecessors is because production cars need to be concerned with things like emissions, noise, fuel economy, drivability by "normal people," etc. The point being that people who make aftermarket modifications to their cars in the quest for more power are not usually "normal people" that care about many of those other factors...they just want more power.

jds



That's why I say it is a fantasy engine. The specs were for an engine that was not production feasible. GM could just as easily put a 700 hp SB engine in a show car. Of course this engine would never pass emmissions, etc.

I thought we were talkinga bout power potential in the aftermarket? I could care less about noise (to a point), startup emissions, etc, so that lost power is available to me through the aftermarket. I thought the whole point of the discussion was whether or not that power was available to be tapped. I don't care if Mazda taps it or GReddy, as long as it is available to *me*.

Sorry if I misconstrued the original point.

jds

Originally posted by babylou


That's why I say it is a fantasy engine. The specs were for an engine that was not production feasible. GM could just as easily put a 700 hp SB engine in a show car. Of course this engine would never pass emmissions, etc.

Anyone who has ever worked on previous generations of rotary engines knows there is a good bit of power to be had by exhaust mods alone. You could keep the main cat, too, or switch to a "hi-flow" cat. Someone will eventually come out with a collected header to keep exhaust pulses separate longer (here comes the argument about exhaust scavenging - I swear I'm not a trouble maker :D ).

Intake mods may not be as useful, sometimes they never are.

Here's why the factory airbox works like it does:

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5710

It is under the general discussion forum.

I went looking somewhere other than this forum while I was online (weird) and found this...

http://www.racingfashion.com/mazda_rx8_parts.htm

They need an RX-8 in the LA area to use as a guinea pig for their intake. Figured somebody might want to take advantage of this and maybe have a little input to the process.

hmmmm... maybe.

hmmmm Save $300 or let some crazies rip into my 8 at 9000 rpm's while they test a dozen pipe designs.....No thank you.

Now if they paired it with an exhaust and my 8 was broken in then i'd prolly do it. Hell that's like $1k+ of free tuned equipment.

hey if you browse around that same site then you would notice that they want cars of all types, not just the RX-8 for their crappy air intake system..

yea... lol their intakes look like garbage; i would wait till injen, aem, or k&n starts asking for cars
atleast you know they are a SERIOUS company

I have gotten quite a few private messages after this thread http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10409 for information where I got my intake pipe from. It is high quality and really makes the car come alive.

www.thunderfabrications.com

thanks

more pics

pic

colin,
do you think you could provide a sound clip

Just wondering if anybody bought any aftermarket air-filters yet. I know they are relatively new, but so far the choices seem to be the Thunder, Rotary Extreme, and the Protech. Nothing heard but good things from them all, too bad my car can only fit one!:p

Just wondering if anybody else other than the proto-type guys buy any and how do they like them!

You forget about K&N. :o

Just wondering, by K&N, do you mean the one made by Thunderfabrications? ehhe I know they use the K&N Cone for that one. heeh I just call it Thunder

If it is not that one, can u give me the link to the K&N? I really want to see it

I dont think k&n website has rx8 filter yet
but you can see pics if you do a search in this aftermarket section

Anyone thought about using one of these since cai needs front end pulled off?I know its easy and all but these filters look cool and seem to be a good answer for the 8

www.blitz-uk.co.uk/

What is so bad about pulling the bumper off?

You are gonna do it with a lot of other CAI intakes that actually free up restrictions that allow the engine to produce more power!

I understand that but i was asking if this filter was any good.Im really thinking of a K&N or that protech and stubbled on to this.Does anyone have any experience with one of these?

For the people that don't want to get an aftermarket air intake but want a little better performance. K&N has this request page for parts. They said in an email they sent me that there isn't a replacment filter in the works but if I feel like making a request to go here. Lets flood them with requests so they will get moving...

www.knfilterchargers.com/products_needed

Done, as this is the way I want to go until I add FI a few years down the road... :D

good idea
gone and done

Already!

Originally posted by ProToolsKid
Lets flood them with requests so they will get moving...

www.knfilterchargers.com/products_needed
I did that weeks ago. I guess it wouldn't hurt to do it again.:)

Originally posted by Rick
I did that weeks ago. I guess it wouldn't hurt to do it again.:)

I have a reminder set in Outlook to send them one every Friday (up to seven so far).

Done it today!

Heres a 30 dollar option but I didn't like it really. I think the factory box does a better job of sucking air into the engine and I felt like this was just way too hot. Techies please just let me be. It was a good attempt I thought. Ah well, I'm back to stock now. The sound was awesome when the engine was under heavy acceleration.

Heres a side shot.

oops

Nice attempt...I have seen worse, not mentioning any names, but certain folk paid over $200 :-)

You get a 'B+' for effort, but any such intake is now taking air from behind the radiator.
The stock intake pokes thru the red bulkhead over the rad, and sucks cold air from the huge intake area in front. Until you get that far, you are not going to beat the stock setup.
Check out the housing for the ECU, it has two little 'cold air intakes' for cooling - Mazda knows where the cold air is, and it is on the other side of that wall.
.
.
.
doc

I am glad that someone tried this, I had wondered what the effects would be just doing a "short ram" type setup. I haven't really had the time to look at how the airbox is constructed on the 8 to see if this was possible. I have a "cone style" filter from one of my other intakes off of my Eclipse and would like to try to rig something like this. Can you walk me through what you did here?

I just wish companies like Injen and AEM would step up and manufacture an intake for this car, it shouldn't take so long to do.

Very easy. I bought a 3 inch coupler from Lowe's in the plumbing department. Then I drilled a 1 1/2 inch hole in the top for the airflow sensor. I used a dryer clamp for the increased diameter for the rubber accordian. The filter was just an apc from pep boys. I made a bracket to keep it upright on the bottom as well. The problem with this setup as stated earlier is that its really a "hot air box" not a cold air setup. Mazda designed a tube in the front which the engine vacuum uses to draw air from the open grill. You would need to design a way to close the system and connect the filter to this tube so that the vacuum would still draw air from the outside. As this setup is, it only draws in hot stagnant engine air. It does sound great though but it would require a little more engineering.

I just wish companies like Injen and AEM would step up and manufacture an intake for this car, it shouldn't take so long to do.


Amen to that
the rx8 has been out 3 months now
I hope parts will become more avaiable after sema in vegas

Originally posted by Greg
... I bought a 3 inch coupler from Lowe's in the plumbing department ...

I wonder if one could get a longer coupler, ~18 inches or so, or long enough to get it outside of the engine compartment and behind the grille. I'd want to also use a larger filter element, as the stock factory intake has a big one, and it's not very restrictive. Might be worth tinkering with it...

sorry to hijack the thread, when is sema happenening?


andrew

I dont know much about how these work. Why dont car companies deliver the car with good air intakes? Does adding one aftermarket void the warantee? Could it hurt the engines longevity?

The purpose of an air intake is to just let air in - nothing else.

If the wrong crap gets in .... well, just imaging tipping ball bearings into your inlet and work backwards from the effect you'd anticipate.

There are some that believe rotaries are more prone to intake contaminants than piston engines - I haven't known of many personally.

Here's a simple rule of thumb: more restrictive air filters mean less airflow, better particulate filtration. Less restrictive air filters mean more airflow, less particulate filtration. The more fine particles get past the air filter, the more wear occurs in each cylinder.

You get work around the lesser airflow by increasing the filter's surface area. However not all filters are created equal. K&N got a bad rap for their oil covered filters letting way too many particulates past. It won't kill your engine immediately but will have an effect over several years.

My first post! Yea!

I just got off the phone, after calling around to 4 different Mazda service centers. The "official" word they give me is that ANY aftermarket intake/exhaust mod will void the engine warranty.

However, person-to-person, it seemed to vary a little. One tech mentioned that they log every change they see, even down to replacing the OEM filter with a K&N, for instance. However, another stated that since the computer does not "log" airflow statistics, as long as the OEM intake is replaced before a warranty service, they won't be any wiser.

Any thoughts?

hmm sounds like too much risk for 10-14hp. Dont wanna kill my engine.

What about exhaust? Any downside/risks to replacing the exhaust? Sorry if these are dumb questions, just curious and dont know much about this stuff....

Originally posted by RussellP
Why dont car companies deliver the car with good air intakes?

Canzoomer has written about this a few times, but his tests show that the RX-8 stock air intake IS a VERY good intake setup. He figures that chances are pretty good that you'll lose power if you replace it, but you certainly will not gain anywhere near 10-14 hp from replacing the intake. That's just marketing BS. Spend your money elsewhere!

Regards,
Gordon

will do, thanks

Besides the possibility of voiding the warranty, the build materials/mandrel bending and quality of the system is extremely important.

As an example: A forced induction rotary would benefit from a 3" system, however, NA rotarys - like the RX-8 or FC RX-7, are better off with 2.25-2.5" systems. If the pipe diameters are too large for the exhaust pulse, you could actually lose power.

Many other rules apply, but that is just a basic starting point.

i talked to my local service advisor at anaheim mazda, he said that an aftermarket intake would probably void the warranty, or at least any warranty service having to do with the MAF sensor or any part of the intake system but mentioned that if it was replaced before taking it to the dealer that they would hear no evil see no evil.

as for aftermarket cat-back, he said he did not see why it would void the factory warranty.

Originally posted by huhsler
The "official" word they give me is that ANY aftermarket intake/exhaust mod will void the engine warranty.

It may be the "official word" of a few techs at a few dealerships, but it's not the law. Unless they can PROVE that the mod caused the problem, they have to cover it. Period.

This question about the warranty has to be the most common around here. Everyone is looking for a guarantee that their warranty won't be voided. Guess what, nobody here can give it you (unless they're lying). I can guarantee however that there are some dealers that will refuse to even touch your car, whereas others will even suggest mods. That's the risk you take.

I think if you buy from a reputable company the mods shouldn't directly cause any problems. Mostly dealers use these things as excuses so they can cover their asses. Someone with mods on their car are more likely to drive aggressively (not a shocking assumption really). The Mazda techs here barely understand the stock 8 parts, let alone any aftermarket parts you might be using, so it's fairly understandable that dealers are cautious.

Now everyone knows that there are dealers that pressure their salespeople into using questionable tactics to rip off customers, so it can't be surprising that some dealers will try to rip you off with your warranty coverage. I've heard of dealers not honoring the warranty for a lot of really minor things. It may be the law, but salespeople often use tactics of questionable legality, so why not the service department. You avoid those places when buying your car, so why should you go to them for service as well.

I have heard of dealers that are surprisingly mod-friendly (for other makes though), where they are even familiar with the aftermarket products and will even install them for you before you pick up your car. Some people drive to Irvine from San Diego to go to the Subaru dealership there that's extremely mod friendly. Just call some dealers and ask around, you might get lucky.

Originally posted by RotorMotor
It may be the "official word" of a few techs at a few dealerships, but it's not the law. Unless they can PROVE that the mod caused the problem, they have to cover it. Period.

How are you going to force them to cover it? There's the problem. Despite the Magnuson-Moss Act, if a dealer refuses to provide warranty coverage, and the manufacturer refuses to provide warranty coverage (both despite the law), then what do you do? You end up having to sue them and take them to court to force them to do the work. How long does that take? Your car could be broken and waiting on repairs for months, even a year, while you plod through the judicial process. IF you win, you get your repairs. No compensation for legal expenses, out-of-pocket expenses such as rental car costs while you fought, etc.

It's all nice and good to say they have to PROVE your mod caused the problem, but reality is that life can be real inconvenient while you try to force them to have to prove it. Is it really worth it?

Regards,
Gordon

Yeah, if you read about the BMW M3 engine problems, many owners had to sue in order to get warranty coverage for stuff that was BMW's fault. It's sad when even BMW won't back up their products.

There's always a risk with aftermarket products (i.e. non-Mazdaspeed). You can swap parts when you're going to the dealer, but what about roadside assistance, etc. when you break down in a random place? You can't swap parts then.

Some dealers have learned to profit from the aftermarket business. I think we'll see more of that in the future because it's becoming a huge industry.

Another misconception is that the dealer is denying it to try to save money, while in fact, the dealer does not lose money doing warranty work. Mazda is who warrants the car, not the dealer, so mazda pays the dealer for any warranty work done on your car. The dealer actually makes some money doing warrantee work. However, they do have to justify the job to mazda, and a lot of times, the maintenance people hate to try to do that. Also, if they can convince you that it isn't covered under the warranty, they can try to get you to pay them for the work, which will make them more money for doing the same job than if mazda was paying the bill.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
How are you going to force them to cover it? There's the problem. Despite the Magnuson-Moss Act, if a dealer refuses to provide warranty coverage, and the manufacturer refuses to provide warranty coverage (both despite the law), then what do you do? You end up having to sue them and take them to court to force them to do the work. How long does that take? Your car could be broken and waiting on repairs for months, even a year, while you plod through the judicial process. IF you win, you get your repairs. No compensation for legal expenses, out-of-pocket expenses such as rental car costs while you fought, etc.

It's all nice and good to say they have to PROVE your mod caused the problem, but reality is that life can be real inconvenient while you try to force them to have to prove it. Is it really worth it?

Regards,
Gordon

Yeah, it's really worth it! Small claims court costs me $22 to file a lawsuit as long as the claim isn't for more than $5000. Mazda can throw all the high-powered lawyers they want to at me and I'm still confident that I could pursuede a judge to agree with me if the claim was reasonable. I've gotten out of 1 ticket and won another small claims case and I know that, as long as the law was on my side, I could do it again.

So to answer your questions I would:
- Review all the recommendations from SEMA
- Ask Mazda for their denial in writing with specific reasons why
- Pay for the repairs out of pocket
- File the claim with the court
- Go before the judge, cite the law, prove that Mazda's claim is unfounded
- Cash my check!

well should it really be covered by warantee if you put on a new intake and the engine dies? Maybe bad particles were gettin in....

Anyone got it

I found this on ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33659&item=2439518554

thats a universal cone

that is a copy of the generic
i would buy it

Nothing against K&N but the air filter they made for the Tundra cause all sorts of problems no perfromance improvements. The trouble with all these products is they off set the balance of the computer system. Believe me, I have driven and have tried to improve on the performance of cars since the 70's when the pollution controls took effect. You can't just add a component and get the effect. You have to adjust the whole system. If they could get 5 hp out of a air filter the would do it.

Originally posted by RX8by
Nothing against K&N but the air filter they made for the Tundra cause all sorts of problems no perfromance improvements. The trouble with all these products is they off set the balance of the computer system. Believe me, I have driven and have tried to improve on the performance of cars since the 70's when the pollution controls took effect. You can't just add a component and get the effect. You have to adjust the whole system. If they could get 5 hp out of a air filter the would do it.

That's not true at all. I've tried stuff at the track and decreased my times without touching my ECU (not in my z though). Altering parameters of the ECU arent necessary to see the benefits of bolt ons. You don't need ECU flashing/tuning until major changes have been had (forced induction, cams etc..).

If you did intake, exhaust and headers on your car right now...I gurantee it would reduce your time. Fine tuning with an safc or ecu flash will help, but only by a few ponies

Sure, maybe if your new intake sucks! However, despite the alleged issues with K&N (for example) people have been using them with great success for years and years and years, in many different applications. If poor filtration were the cause of engine death, it would be pretty easy to tell from an engine tear-down. I believe the point of the Magnuson-Moss law is that the onus is on them to prove it, and if they do...sure, you'll have to foot the bill.

jds

Originally posted by RX8by
Nothing against K&N but the air filter they made for the Tundra cause all sorts of problems no perfromance improvements. The trouble with all these products is they off set the balance of the computer system. Believe me, I have driven and have tried to improve on the performance of cars since the 70's when the pollution controls took effect. You can't just add a component and get the effect. You have to adjust the whole system. If they could get 5 hp out of a air filter the would do it.

My experience with K&N filter has been positive. I don't see know the computer would "know" what kind of filter you're using. The claimed advantage of the filter is less resistance to airflow. From the ECU's perspective, how could it know that the increased airflow was from a better filter or something like lower altitude? I doubt the amount of improvement would take aiflow out of bounds of the map. - note this assumes a direct replacement filter and not something that requires different plumbing .

As far as performance, I really couldn't tell the difference but if somebody says 5hp on a dyno that's fine. It certainly did not degrade. My goal in buying the filter was for the longevity and re-useability factor. I've used the filter for most of the 150K on my current vehicle.

Originally posted by Nubo
My experience with K&N filter has been positive. I don't see know the computer would "know" what kind of filter you're using. The claimed advantage of the filter is less resistance to airflow. From the ECU's perspective, how could it know that the increased airflow was from a better filter or something like lower altitude? I doubt the amount of improvement would take aiflow out of bounds of the map. - note this assumes a direct replacement filter and not something that requires different plumbing .

As far as performance, I really couldn't tell the difference but if somebody says 5hp on a dyno that's fine. It certainly did not degrade. My goal in buying the filter was for the longevity and re-useability factor. I've used the filter for most of the 150K on my current vehicle.

well said. Do they make stainless steel drop ins for 8s? Those are the best IMHO. Simply clean them with an air compressor

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Canzoomer has written about this a few times, but his tests show that the RX-8 stock air intake IS a VERY good intake setup. He figures that chances are pretty good that you'll lose power if you replace it, but you certainly will not gain anywhere near 10-14 hp from replacing the intake. That's just marketing BS. Spend your money elsewhere!

Regards,
Gordon

This seems to be getting more and more common. Every time I hear of someone with a CAI on their WRX I just want to smack em. It's not a good mod for all cars, just those that happen to have a poor stock intake design. Funny thing is the most common places you hear about intakes on WRXs is kill forums where people are making up BS stories about the modded car they just beat.

Don't mess around with the RX8 if you plan to keep it a few years. I would just do a K&N drop-in OEM filter when it is available. Someone may as well wait for the Mazdaspeed version if they want more power. However, gotta watch the paddle as the radars zoom in on all Rx8s.

:D

The stock intake may indeed be very good, but they still had design constraints that won't necessarily apply to an aftermarket intake. Noise, for example. That intake sound that some people like would never fly on a stock car. If, as a designer, you don't care about that, then you may be able to do things a bit differently and end up with a little better flow. Maybe. The Rotary Extreme intake dynos would seem to indicate that it is possible.

jds

With the wrx, basically what I have heard with air filters is that they make your car run lean, producing more power, then when you tune the computer to run safe a/f mixtures, you lose that power, and then some, because the filter doesn't allow steady amounts of airflow into the engine.

or something like that.

this is according to cobb tuning, who do a bunch of suby stuff.

that's my .02

take or leave

p.s. I also read somewhere about the 8's intake being very painstakingly designed for harmonics, and adding a filter mightn't be good for it.

blah blah

Generally, if the stock intake on a particular car is well engineered, adding an aftermarket one will NOT make your car run lean. Even if it does, and then you tune for it, you're adding more fuel and air, right? Which should be contributing to a power increase. That's the whole point of a better-flowing intake, to get more air in...not to change the air/fuel ratio.

jds

I am still waiting on the True-Flow Filter

check this out:


http://www.gcatrueflow.com/

with all these comments ... I think i'm sticking with the stock one for now.

Check this out! New intake from Autoexe, looks fantastic but suppose to increase power by 5 ps only.

More pics

Only bad thing is the price...118,000 yen or about US$1,100...!!!

wow..... that's a heapload of cash

Originally posted by GTF-RX-8
wow..... that's a heapload of cash

hmmmm strange, i originally posted that, assuming i was logged in as myself since i'm the only one who uses this computer to access this site..... i'm confused.:confused:

1,000 bucks for an intake with an air box?!?!?! it better add about 500ps, and the exhaust should be scattered with diamonds.

WTF?????????
I didn't post that previous post!!!!!!!!!!!

I just signed on to the forum last night and haven't made a single post yet but received a notice in my email that a reply was made to "my post" <---- that I didn't make.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.........

Something weird is going on.

That's hilarious. It's all messed up. :p

back to the intake

has anyone else heard of this setup
Is it really worth 1k

Is this is prototype or production? I can't seem to find details on their site.

Any word on dyno results?

Any object is only "worth" what someone is actually willing to pay for it.

That being said, I don't think that intake is gonna be "worth" a grand to anyone. The carbon is pretty, but you aren't gonna get $1000 worth of performance out of it..

yeah i agree, that's messed up. 1k is ridiculous. it's got to be a mistake

Why does this thing have to be made out of carbon fiber? I mean, couldn't it be done a lot cheaper with some kind of polymer?

Lotsa show, we'll see about the go....

mmmmmm... Carbon Fibre *droooool* /Homer

Since I somehow got dragged into this...did you guys read the other post regarding the stock intake?

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5710&highlight=plenum

Something to read and consider before buying a new intake.

Here's the link to the webpages. Suppose to increase hp a little bit - 5 ps or slightly less than 5 bhp at 8310 rpm.

ramair (http://www.autoexe.co.jp/products/ramair/index.html)

There's a sound clip there as well.

Price list (http://www.autoexe.co.jp/products/ramair/Page3.htm)

I find that the airbox looks very much like the stock airbox (carbon fibre aside) with the front lower panel cut out for the ramair effect...this is what I did to my Golf VR6. So, anyone out there willing to sacrifice a stock airbox? :D

The stock airbox has a ram air effect already...

Originally posted by Redshift
mmmmmm... Carbon Fibre *droooool* /Homer

Might as well get the RotaryExtreme intake with carbon fibre top-cover that makes more HP and costs $360 (260 + 100 for the cover). I don't really like the look of the polished aluminum cover, so I'd probably go for the CF.

That intake just came out.

Not much news on it, but I hope to find out about a bunch of parts when I meet up with FEED, AutoExe, RE-Amemiya and a couple others in 2 weeks

2expensive

It could be done a lot cheaper WITH carbon fiber! For that price, we should be asking why it has to be made out of gold.

jds

Originally posted by bluesnowmonkey
Why does this thing have to be made out of carbon fiber? I mean, couldn't it be done a lot cheaper with some kind of polymer?

This is similar to the Kansai air boxes I've seen. The heafty price is all in the carbon. Usually very detailed and beautiful finish. Worth the xtra scratch in the craftmanship alone, almost. Definately more show than go. The stock accordian hose is still utilized, I mean come on...

Maybe back when CF was actually rare, but c'mon...how many vendors are offering pieces in CF now? Its getting more common, as people realize its not some alien technology.

Frankly, while you can't really tell too much from the picture, I didn't think that box looked all that well done either. Maybe it just doesn't photograph well (CF usually doesn't).

jds

ITS SOUNDS GOOD

http://www.autoexe.co.jp/

For intakes and prices hitting 300 plus i go back to my original blitz sonic air filter idea.Anyone out there make me the just the pipe?

you could easily have a pipe cusom made, people do it all the time.

the carbon fiber adds 350hp, you didnt know that? Also the higher your aluminum wing is the more hp you get. And for every sticker you have on the side of your car, you get 10 more hp. why do you think honduhs are so fast?

I thought having an airbox combo with a large cone filter was better. The logic was rather than extending the filter towards the cold air location, you can extend the housing of the air box intead, leaving the filter safer from the elements.

Not sure if ram air and cold air are the same concepts but I ended up getting the airbox / CAI combination ... didn't have to worry too much about NYC rain puddles and stuff.

Now I'm in CA, not sure if this would apply or not.

alex

Rex....you forgot that the CF ramair saves 100lbs in excess weight...DUH!...

oh yeh...and the "universal" can to add the go-cart noise..that has to add at least 40-50 FWHP....hehehe...gheez i crack myself up...

That does sound good, any price on that piece?

In trying to find a price, I found a Ram Air intake for a Mazda MPV. Now that is hilarious!

this was posted previously......the asking price on the intake is about $1,000 US dollars. very expensive for such an intake that probably only adds a couple hp and a nice sound, but the craftsmanship put into it is very nice.

nice item for high balling rx-8 owners! not me :(

Then sign me up, im all about it

Does anyone know if Injen or AEM are working on a CAI for the Rx8, I would be interested in that.
Thanks
Drew

yes u want to know so i dont buy something i find better later,im waiting for AEM b/c i heard they have one of the best intakes .so im going to wait and save money for it if they have one

I recently checked the K&N site to see if they had released an intake for the rx8 6spd, after hearing talk about it on the forum.
I noticed that the only intake systems that they had were for the automatic versions. I might be doing something wrong?

My theory is that "auto" in that context refers to the fact that it is an automotive application. K&N makes filters for lots of things.

jds

i want to get a intake for my 8 but dont want to get a intake and then a month later a better one comes out for same price with same hp gains or more.

Now heres my ? do u think aemor injen will make a intake soon?

Most likely but theres no telling how long it may be. I'd look at the K&N Typhoon

No, they do not make anything for the rx-7 so there is no really support coming from those companies

Thanks i dont know whast better rotary extremes intake or k&n i dont want to spend 300 on a intake and it wont give me teh gains im looking for.with my luck as soon as i buy my intake another one comes out that makes more performance per dollar.

Assuming the reported gains for the K&N and RE intakes are even close to accurate (for some of you I realize that's a big assumption :D) I don't think you're going to see someone else come out with an intake that's drastically better. You're just not going to get 20-30 hp out of an intake unless the stock intake is really horrible, and by all reports, this one is not.

jds

I called the AEM customer service line about a month ago. I was told that they are currently developing one, but he could not say with any certainty whether it is going to go live.

In all fairness, if you don't want to spend $300 for an intake that won't give you the gains that you are looking for, then you are probably destined to be stuck with the factory intake forever. No one is going to get numbers that are terribly impressive. Most likely all of the different manufacturers gains will be very similar. AEM or Injen aren't going to give any magic power numbers either. A cold air intake with a cone filter can only do so much. It doesn't matter who's name is stamped on it. For the price differences between everyone who will make a kit, I guarantee that you will not get a noticable improvement over another manufacturers product. 8-10 hp is about the limit and that in itself really isn't enough to feel. Also be careful of some manufacturers that release a product that produces less power than stock. A cone filter will give no gains if it is getting hot engine air. Just because it has a name brand doens't neccessarily guarantee that it is a good product. HKS has been using foam air filters for years and those things are absolutely terrible. They don't particularly filter all that well and flow isn't as good as many people believe. Do some research and pick the one that seems like was engineered the best. Don't worry about what name it has on it. You've already spent about $30000 for a claimed 238 hp. Why not spend $300 for 8 or 10 hp?

Racing Beat is developing a cold air intake, it ought to be good. i'l wait for that one, personally.

or, just make your own cold air setup. i did for my RX-7, saved money, and it works great.

Just curious on what everyone wanted. Me personally i want to see the ram air from Rotary Extreme.

HKS drop in for me ;)

What HKS drop in?

there is a thread on hks drop in under rx8 competition

I wanna wait awhile until there are as much choice as the exhaust now.

Adding an intake right now is very tempting but I think that I'll also wait and see what everyone else has in the works.

I'm waiting until a few independent before/after dyno runs are posted to see if these intakes offer anything more than additional noise! So far, all the buyers just seem to be posting "It sounds great, and my butt dyno tells me it's faster"

Regards,
Gordon

I agree with gord you will want to wait untill some others come out. I want to see what racing beat and some others have in store for us. I hear they are taking a new approach to the CAI it sounds very interesting to me.

Short arm vote

I really don't see much difference between K&N and Chuck Wang's design. The Wang intake has a heat shield other than that they are the same. I would like to see Wang's ram air though.

Would Chuck be the guys from Rotary Extreme?

Yes, Chuck = Rotary Extreme. And the heat shielding is a big deal, and well worth the extra cost. The K&N will just suck hot air all day long, which is not the best for power.

It's also not "Wang"- it's "Huang" I beleive.

i will probley go with aem or injen. they both have product numbers but arent for sale from my understanding. i went to my local shop in tx to get some info on it.

but it would be good to wait to see all the others numbers.

Wow, we have one more choice for intake now. It is AUTO EXE Ram-air Intake, cost $1085.

another pic

air flow design

Looks awesome, great find! - Is that carbon fiber that they've used on the housing? Do you think the price would be reduced if they used another material? $1085 is some serious coin for an intake, IMO. Any hp numbers that you can share with us? Thanks in advance.

I found that filter on corksport.com

http://www.corksport.com/main.php3?primNavIndex=0&mainURL=%2Fstore%2Findex.php3%3Fcat%3D260821

no dyno chart, hp claims, nothing.

It looks like to me it is a carbon fiber housing.

Yes, I agree. $1085 for an intake is VERY EXPENSIVE. :)

The fact of this matter is that until we get some OBDII data logged for the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) on a power run (i.e. dyno or street) then we can't actually say the stock intake is bad.

I have had the opportunity to try a so-called "CAI" on my car. It increased the induction noise "buzz" to what I would consider verging on rice.

My coitometer (my term for butt dyno) really can't detect a few kW at the wheels like the makers claim.

My eye and brain did inspect both the aftermarket and stock setups, and I report the following:


The standard air box is a true CAI. I have not seen better on a production car.
The standard air box has VERY fine mesh screen to smooth the airflow over the MAF sensor. A smooth flow is essential for an accurate reading.
The aftermarket setup did not have any devices to provide laminar flow to the MAF. When I removed the filter and just started the engine with the MAF tube only, the engine did not idle properly.
The aftermarket tube did not have a lovely bell shaped opening like the stock setup.
The aftermarket setup was NOT a CAI. It was open to HOT engine bay air. This is a definate no-no. Even though it was shielded, it was not sealed (or even close to being sealed. It was well manufacturerd, but the design was lacking.
I did not measure the diameter of the tube, but if it differs from the stock one, then the PCM will calculate incorrect air flow. This is because the MAF signal is based around velocity of air, with a known cross-section of tube. If the cross-sectional area changes, then the true air-flow requirements of the engine are incorrect.


I also was privy to reading a RX-8 technical training manual. It made particular mention of replacement air intakes. It said if a vehicle was presented with a running/idling problem, and it had a non-standard air intake, then it should be replaced with the factory unit. I also mentioned that an aftermarket "wet" filter element could provide a false reading in the MAF.

When we get some valid MAP data, we can tell if there is a "restriction". The goal is to get as close to ATMO as possible inside the manifold.

Anyway - some information for everyone to digest, listen to, or ignore.

Cheers,
Hymee.

PS - my buddy did some scientific/controlled real world tests with a stopwatch. An acceleration run in his RX-8 at WOT from low RPM to high RPM in one gear, showed the aftermarket intake setup was 2 - 3% SLOWER than the stock one. This was the average result over 4 runs with each intake. Speaks volumes really!

So Hymee, what's your take on drop-in KN type "high performance" filters? Do you think this would be better than a replacement aftermarket intake or stock paper element filter or is it better to leave everything stock on this intake?

To be honest I was surprised when I read the training manual, and it discouraged the use of the "wet element" type filter.

I would have thought that they would be OK. I have a KingDragon replacement element left over from my previous LS1 powered vehicle. Not the correct size though - not surprising. But it is important to note that the element for the LS1 (a 5.7L engine) was SMALLER than the RX-8's element. So the RX-8 one would seem an adequate size.

I suppose I really want to see how the MAP figures shape up!

Cheers,
Hymee.

I was wondering if someone could tell me if i need to upgrade my intake, when i upgrade the exhaust. Right now i have the money for both, but i could live with just the exhaust as then i could buy some other things like a valentine 1 radar det.

The problem that I'm thinking may happen is that when you free up the exhaust side it might put an extra pull on the intake side but I'm not sure. As you can tell I'm fairly new at this.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

No, the factory intake is actually pretty good. Results of intakes are varied, some claiming up to 10HP gain, but you won't lose anything to the intake if you just upgrade the exhaust.

Hope this helps.

Originally posted by Omicron
No, the factory intake is actually pretty good. Results of intakes are varied, some claiming up to 10HP gain, but you won't lost anything to the intake if you just upgrade the exhaust.

Hope this helps.

Thank you very much, gonna drive up to garland now.

Thanks,

Chris

Enjoy the drive! :)

Originally posted by Omicron
Enjoy the drive! :)

I know right gonna take about 3 hours, sheesh, but it would be major fun on the way back :p

Chris

I would get both

they work better together

Wouldn't it be safe to say that the cars computer via the mass air sensor is only going to allow a certain amount of air anyway, regardless of what type of air inducton one has,due to the factory setting parameters, Does it work that way? Or is it, that if the car is getting more or denser airflow it will automatically compensate with more fuel and spark? Anyway I like the stock setup better, due to the fact it is totaly enclosed and is made of plastic which doesn't retain heat like metal, I think a better flowing filter element is all it needs!

hom many horses does the leading Cold air intake give a stock RX-8 engine?

have u meet mikeb?

no, who is he?

im him...he's the guy with 10.000 posts...haaha

I'm mikeb

and he probably said that because I love fast and furious cars

and I already have the K&N intake

hows it preform

I'm really happy with it

it is loud as hell and the car seems faster off the line

Originally posted by 2_furious
hom many horses does the leading Cold air intake give a stock RX-8 engine?

Many of us are sceptical that they actually give any power increase - the stock air box and giant filter are very well designed. So far, the intake vendors claim around 5 hp, but very few (maybe nobody) that has purchased one of these has done back-to-back dyno tests of intake before/after. Canzoomer, who has developed the piggyback ECU mod that gives 20 hp for $500, is one who did some testing and is very doubtful that any of the intakes on the market will add any power.

They sound great, though!

Regards,
Gordon

like peanut butter and jelly...

...or chocolate and kim-chee...

As you know there are 2 intake availible k&n and Rotaryextreme intake. Which one should i get? I want the Rotaryextreme but price is alittle to high for me but comes with a heat sheild. I want the typhoon cuz it looks better but doesnt come with the heatsheild but is well in my price range. I read that K&N will have a heat sheild soon anyone know how much it will run for, so then at the end which intake is cheaper. Is the typhoon worth getting w/o heatsheild and for their heatsheild o come out

p.s if i am persuaded towards the k&n wheres is the CHEAPEST website i can get it and if i am persuaded towards the Rotaryextreme is that only website i can get it at?

i want intake b/c its the cheapest engine mod i can afford

Originally posted by Dookie_Rx-8
i want intake b/c its the cheapest engine mod i can afford

What do you want from the mod?

If you're looking for a noticeable performance increase - an intake won't do it. Even if it gives 5 hp at peak 8500 rpm (which is about all the best of them claim), that is very hard to detect without timing equipment - ie you won't notice it. Worst case, there are quite a few knowledgeable people on the forum who state that the factory intake is extremely well designed and that there's no power benefit to be obtained from replacing the intake.

If you're looking for a louder intake noise - then they definitely deliver that! ;)

Regards,
Gordon

my opinion from experience, do not go with an aftermarket intake, the stock one is fine. It will soind good up to 6500rpm, then you will hear the dreaded broken up air sound wich is the additional flaps oprning up, the stock set up muffles this so you can not hear it, also you will lose some low end power, and just imagine when it is humid outside.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
What do you want from the mod? Exactly what I was thinking.

I would wait for APEXi to come out with an intake. As many know, the K&N filter's oil can cause problems with the MAF. The APEXi filter is not only a dry filter without any type of oil, it also filters better from the independent test I have seen.

Dookie - there is a thread already out which goes over the whole comparison b/w the two. I initially started the thread but it somehow turned into a poll thread. Try a search and that should help you decide further which direction to go.

My advice is not to get a mod just to get a mod. The intakes aren't really proven to make that much difference other than noise thusfar. Maybe save the money until you have enough for an exhaust, ECU mod or until there are more intakes to choose from and there is data to back them up.

Yes, I know that K&N is reporting 10hp, or something of the like, but nobody that has had one installed has had the opportunity to back their statements up. Just my $.02. Which ever you choose to go with, best of luck. You'll be happy either way.

One more vote for passing on both units.

Vince

K&N is a household name

can't go wrong with it

I love mine just waiting for the heat shield

i dont really care about proformance as long as its not taking way horespower ,i want sound thats what i want

Then hook it up, Dook! You can get the K&N for $199 on EBay! Sold! Get us a sound clip and some pics while your at it. :)

Decide what you want to hear - The air intake or the Rotary whine. I'll take the whine, plus I've yet to see an aftermarket intake from anybody that actually produced anything other than noise.

And my signature below says it pretty well, too.

well always can take it off right?

is this is why a sound clip would help me decide faster or slower

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffscardinal
, also you will lose some low end power, and just imagine when it is humid outside. [/QUOTE

would i still lose low end power if i had the heild shield?

Take your time and wait. I would..it will be worth it in the end. Perhaps when some performance mags decide to start reviewing intakes, make a decision then. It depends on what you want, how much you value the life of your engine, and well money!

R-E intake and several exhaust clips at http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?threadid=17057&highlight=mp4

wait your saying intake cuts the life of the engine

you can get the k&n intake from summit racing via summitracing.com (you will have to call them to order it tho its not on their website) and its only $176.39 before shipping and it take about a wekk because its so new they dont have them in stock but will save you some money!

Guys,

I own a Rotaryextreme intake and it is in deed amazing. The sole fact that it has a "complete" heat shield puts it above the K/N. Also, you can definitely feel a performance gain & the sound it makes at high RPM is great.

The movie clip that "Genom" posted above is of my Rotaryextreme intake. Check it out......Thanks for the file Genom....

Originally posted by RX8on19s
you can definitely feel a performance gain

Perhaps you can, but absolutely NOBODY besides Rotary Extreme has done back to back dyno runs to compare the stock intake to their RE intake - there is zero independent hard data to confirm any power increase. All anybody who's bought has said is "it sounds great" - why hasn't anybody actually tested it?????

Regards,
Gordon

I've never heard this before. Got a source? I've used K&Ns for years on my FD but of course I don't have a MAF :-)

jds

Originally posted by darkducati
I would wait for APEXi to come out with an intake. As many know, the K&N filter's oil can cause problems with the MAF. The APEXi filter is not only a dry filter without any type of oil, it also filters better from the independent test I have seen.

Can a heat sheild really help that much. To me I would think that it would restrict HP b/c it is restricting air flow around the filter. And when the car is in motion, would there even be hot air in the front of the engine bay?

Originally posted by s13lover
Can a heat sheild really help that much. To me I would think that it would restrict HP b/c it is restricting air flow around the filter. And when the car is in motion, would there even be hot air in the front of the engine bay?

And that is precisely the problem... when the car is NOT moving... i.e. stop and go traffic. It has been reported that there was a noticable power loss in hot stop and go traffic. Thus all the talk about needing the heat shield... As far as resticting hp goes... the stock box isn't that bad at all... thus I doubt it has much effect in that way...

I would like to clarify a comment or two about what I posted above about the my above comments re the CAI intake .

Apparently the length of the MAF pipe is quite critical to the power produced. The intake I saw had been shortened. I am not sure why it was shortened, but it was apparently to get it to fit. It appears this was a mistake.

My comments about performance with the stopwatch should be disregarded, as the component under test was not within it's intended specification.

Public appologies if this appeared to be a sabotage. It is right for us to give public opinons on this place, but it not right is the facts are skewed.

But I did say the quality of the manufacturing was first rate!

My only concern (still) is I would seal around the edge of the heat sheild with some thick foam tape to help prevent hot engine air getting in. Chuck says some of the additional air gets in through the small gap, so maybe it is not a great idea. I just don't like hot air going into my motor!

I would like to be able to do back to back tests with my MR Dyno, but unfortunatley my buddy lives in another city 9hrs drive away.

Cheers,
Hymee.

im looking to get an air intake and i just want all your opinion on which air intake out right now do you guys think is the best?

Best for what?

If you want more power - they're very similar, and make maybe 6 hp peak at the most, and that will be only above 6K rpm.

If you want more sound - then that's subjective, but it seems like the K&N Typhoon and the Rotary Extreme intakes are both quite loud.

If you want the best filtering and best protection for your engine - then the stock intake is the best.

Regards,
Gordon

I currently have the K&N Typhoon intake installed. However, I am not to keen on the size of the filter (Overkill). Luckily the performance part store I have been doing business with forever is allowing me to try two different universal filter elements. The GReddy Airinx small 80mm and the HKS SMF mini filter same size. Right now I just popped on the GReddy coupled to the Typhoon SR tube. Unfortuneatly I do not have acsess to a dyno so I can only go on subjective impressions. The one bonus will be a heatsheild shouldn't be to hard to locate or fabricate myself with the smaller element.

Apparently the Greddy intake (JDM only right now) is supposed to give more power in the midrange and a little on the top. It's design is a bit different... there is a link to the site and a manual (not machine) translation posted in the "intake development" thread.

hmm i had the same problem with you......but i decicded to wait b/c iunno im not totally happy with only 2 choices,but there is a k&n replacement filter ready

I have the R/E intake and it is great.......

*** MOD EDIT - Stop the personal attacks, now. ***

The stock intake is quite nice as it is. The are air ducts below the front bumper that help guide air into the filter. The filter is nice and wide and faces in a forward direction.

Despite the controversy of all of these intakes, given the choice I would go with a K&N as they are designed by competent mechanical engineers. Personally, I will not be wasting my money on the intake as the stock intake is more than sufficient and Mazda RX-8 designers arn't stupid. They are pushing every bit of performance out of their stock intake!

Go with a genuine MAZDASPEED flywheel for extra torque and acceleration. With MAZDASPEED, you have the comfort of your warranty to back you up.

man oh man breezy. give up.