Checkout this hybrid PC.
http://www.hybrid-mobile.com

It appears they are working on a prototype RX-8 install of this system:
http://www.hybrid-mobile.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=5&

Cool!

Not sure if he has received the 8 though, since the last post is on May 5 2003. But looks promising!

Oh man, this really brings out the Hyper-nerd in me, and makes me drool. Almost sounds too good to be true... and for sure, sounds exPENsive!

For those of you who don't want to follow the links (and lemme tell ya, that first "main" link is a very flashy, cool website that winds up being almost impossible to navigate, even for a nerd like me!) here is a synopsis of what they're planning, taken from their forums:
Originally posted by Hybridmikemobile at http://www.hybrid-mobile.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=5&
I guess most of you want to know what a Hybrid system can do or is capable of doing...well when the staff at HybridMobile wanted to show the public its new powerful Computer Enhanced Control Unit, we had to pick a vehicle with the same vision in mind. I chose the Mazda RX-8. this car has a unique past, and a continued vision of doing something new and "Revolutionary." the Mazdas Powerful Rotary Motor combined with a true Sports Car frame, is a Hybrid all in itself. Our CECU will be installed in this vehicle as soon as it rolls of the transport, we have special orderd the car from Mazda and will come fully equiped. it is due to arrive in June. one of the first things that will be done is to install the Hybrid PC and Touch screen in the vehicles factory navigation location. First key features of the PC by intself are as follows: DVD for movie playback, GPS navigation, MP3 playback, 802.11b Wireless lan for 11mbs transfer rate when I am docked..(garaged) this allows me to drag and drop all my mp3 files into my pc in the car since it will be logged into my home network. The propriatary CECU will have functions like OBDII diagnostic interface...this allows us to go in and make graphical guages that can read any sensor in the cars ecu.a major plus for racers!, next is the integrated Accelerometer that gives the user lateral acceleration, 1/4mi times, 0-60 and 60-0 brakeing distance/time, A bank of 10 Analog inputs for external sensors or input from the vehicle, 8 GP I/O's, and 5 5amp switching relays. this gives the user flexibilty in controling any device withen the vehicle(s) this will give the user complete control of every function in the car, all through the easy to use front end software developed by our software Engineer to allow the customer to custom edit a touch panel design and give functions to buttons or even voice commands to start the car. or maybe an On screen touch button strater on the car...cool or what? there are many other features of our flagship product, much to many to list here......so I will keep everyone updated and let you know about upcoming mods and events. MIKE

Yowsa!

Oh man, that is so cool. Very expensive no doubt, but would be really amazing to have.

i dont see the functionality in having a CDRW in a car. The WIFI ideal is pretty cool, allowing instant transfer of MP3s. Assuming a nav system is functional with this set up, or can be tapped, that would be really cool too. I was thinking about putting a computer in my car too, but after thinking about it, I realized it was kinda pointless, but the fact taht this PC can integrate and display gauges and etc is cool (something I wouldnt be able to do myself obviously). Anyone have a price? The specs for that type of PC I would assume is around $500 (1.2 celeron etc..).

I have in my rover.... and i install in my new rx8... after i have...

The pc, in question have a low performance, my pc are one mini-itx epia M10000 and the performance are cool... i can watch a dvd, pay a mp3, play a game... and other... after install i post the photo.... but my new car don't arrive for next 1/2 month....

The thing about putting a PC in a car is that it already works with innumerous programs and devices. The PC will work with off-the-shelf drives, monitors, and input devices, and off-the-shelf programs.

So things like adding a DVD player or your choice of GPS mapping programs (pick the one you like best, instead of putting up with whichever one the factory choose) is very straightforward. Adding ANY kind of connectivity like WI-FI or cellular based (or even have a 100baseT plug for major downloads/uploads when parked in your garage) is very simple, and upgrades/patches are easily available. You use a DVD-RW or CD-RW drive instead of a DVD or CD drive so that you can read rewritable discs, and because it's not that much more expensive. Plug your PDA in and synchronize it using it's WI-FI or other connectivity.

Then, any custom function you want is relatively straightforward to install. Custom graphics on the screen, custom menus, and custom controls can all be done with standard programming skills (which you can do, or cheaply have someone else do). Things like custom gauges can be easily done with sensors (or tapping into an existing sensor), and a basic interface to a serial or parallel port (an interface can handle hundreds of sensors), and some basic programming. Data-logging and playback is a natural. Mount a couple of cameras and record the video of an auto-x or road course circuit run, and playback the different views as you need them. You can easily embed specific guage data in the video stream even (like speed, G-forces, and things that will help you compare different runs on different setups).

Steering wheel buttons, the radio text readout in the RX8, climate controls, homelink controls, and remote radar detectors can all be interfaced with a PC rather simply. Some programming and sensors, and you can have climate control. Interface with the GPS program, and you can log where radar traps are. With cellular connectivity to the Internet, cars could provide realtime updates of radar traps to a site, which could be read by other cars driving in the same area. Even if it's just you driving around, you will be able to map out where every stationary photo-radar site is.

Even if you aren't interested in the performance side, you can keep track of much more than a "trip computer" ever could. Accurate gas mileage logging, and tied in with the GPS system, log which route to work is quicker/easier/more efficient. An interface with the OBDII system, and the computer will let you know exactly what problem the computer is picking up (instead of just flashing the check engine light).

Anyway, you get the idea. A PC allows for all of these "Pie-in-the-Sky" options and gadgets with already available parts and software. This means that an intrepid installer or owner can put these in without having to become an expert electrical engineer. The pieces/parts are already there with a PC, all you have to do is put them together.

---jps

I am in the process of finding my 8 right now, thru my dealer. And the Nav system is on the list, should I wait? This sounds like a pretty cool concept, any cost guestimates yet?

I wouldn't wait for this system. Seeing as how difficult it is to retro-fit a factory NAV, I would suggest that you get it with the car. When you are ready to put in a mobile PC, you can re-use some of those pieces.

Mind you, there are several mobile PC units already available. Everything they list is available on a custom basis now, they're just wanting to put it together as a kit. You could either use the stock NAV hood to mount the display (which would be more stealth), or have a custom audio installer mount a screen in the location of the stock radio.

---jps

Just thought I'd toss my hat in the mix. I'm a systems engineer/integrator as well. I'm approximately 2/3 done with an in-vehicle computer prototype and am, of course, using my RX-8 as the first demo car. Just to give you guys a hint at about how much you should expect to pay for something like this, I'm expecting to be able to sell a complete system (including the 7" LCD touch screen) for approximately $1700, $300 cheaper than the stock nav unit but you will get:

- DVD
- hard-drive based MP3 (140GB)
- Navigation
- Wireless Internet (a monthly service will still be required)
- ODBII
- Back-up camera

Most current in-car computers cost $2000+ without the screen. I'll keep you guys posted on the progress.

Edit: For the RX-8 I will have solutions for nav equipped and non-nav-equipped cars.... $2000 is a lot of money to spend on parts you plan to replace. Also, unlike a lot of car computers, this one is being designed form the chassis up with mobile computing specifically in mind. Many of the parts can be purchased but significant modifications need to be made to ensure proper voltage, shock dampening, etc.

RotorMotor,
That sounds like an awesome setup. It would be nice if you could add a couple of more cameras (i.e. VUZ Concept One (http://www.vuzonline.com/conceptone_complete.html)) and be able to record the video directly to the hard drive. Then be able to transfer it via WiFi to your home PC. That would make a sweet race cam setup.

Speed,

You'll be able to add up to (hahaha, get this) 127 cameras to the system. If that's not race documentation, I don't know what the hell is! :) Of course, this will require a significant investment in cameras and a lot of wiring, but it could be done....

I'm also working on an application for us California folks (hopefully the rest of the country when services are available) to re-route the nav system based on monitoring real-time traffic. You would have to have an internet equipped PC, but that's my dream time-saver...

Edit: sorry, make that 126 cameras.

Oh man .... definitely PM me when this shxt comes out. I balked at the nav system because I figured a computer/lcd could be done. I didn't stop to think others were already doing the work for me :)

Of course I have a ton of questions about how you guys are integrating the units and input interfaces into the car. Should I fire them off here, or PM them?

Originally posted by Eradicator
Oh man .... definitely PM me when this shxt comes out. I balked at the nav system because I figured a computer/lcd could be done. I didn't stop to think others were already doing the work for me :)

Of course I have a ton of questions about how you guys are integrating the units and input interfaces into the car. Should I fire them off here, or PM them?

Please make them public.

As long as the mute and volume on the steering wheel work, my goal is for voice interaction.

Imagine a custom voice interface...

You: Dobbie (key phrase/car name) Music
RX8: Your choice?
You: Rock, Rolling Stones
RX8: Playing

Commands like Music, Radio, Phone, Destination would all be sensible and achievable - imagination and a bit of voice training would be required...

Imagine...

You: Dobbie performance
RX8: Profile?
You: High power
RX8: ECU remapping in progress
<pause>
RX8: High power mode enabled

The reason I hesitate to ask here is they might not want to share too many specific design details while they're still developing the system. But I guess I can ask away and let them decide what to answer....

What kind of specs would the computer have and how large (physically) would it be? ... and where could you mount it? That sorta plays into where the DVD drive would be, as well as "front-panel" usb or firewire plugs.

Will the screen be retractable? Is it going to use a custom mold on the dash and use the empty space (for those of us w/o the factory Nav system) for retracting?

Even though you are using a touchscreen (and the voice command sounds sweet, too), what other input devices do you plan on using? I was originally thinking of cutting into the center console and mounting either a trackball or laptop touch-pad mouse where the stock Nav controller goes. Would you have a wireless keyboard/mouse/gyro (gyration mouse) for additional input?

I'm sure I'm forgetting some things ... but I'll shoot these off now.

I don't mind sharing, particularly information that's not proprietary in any way.

Kev:
Voice activation/interaction is definitely in the plans. This will likely be in a later rev of the computer (not too far away though) and, of course, any computers that are deployed before it's available will be upgradable. While the idea of a voice chip for the ECU sounds cool it wouldn't be as easy as controlling other functions and could be dangerous (especially since Canzoomer's ECU controller requires that the car have time to "learn" the new maps).

Eradicator:
The size of the computer is approximately 12" x 10" x 3", slightly larger than a standard, trunk-mounted CD changer. It will mount in the trunk. You will have an external DVD or DVD/CD-RW drive mounted in the glove compartment and could additionally mount a USB hub there as well.

You will have the option of having a retractable screen or not. The retractable screen will use the aftermarket navigation tray (see Canzoomer's forum for info) and a fully motorized, retractable screen. The fixed screen will also use the navigation tray and will cost considerably less.

As far as input devices are concerened, that's the beauty of a modular design, you can add whatever you want. For example you could, like you mentioned, use a laptop-like touch-pad that permanently mounted in the console, a wireless optical mouse, a wireless gyro mouse, a small joystick similar to the stock navigation, etc. You could also rely entirely on the touchscreen and voice interaction or you could use a mini wireless keyboard or a flex keyboard that can be rolled up and stored in the glove compartment.

Any thing else, feel free to ask. And yes, I prefer keeping them public so I can just point to this thread instead of typing the same info over and over.... :D

I'm in the process of ramping up for my own car PC with some of the features you've mentioned. It might be easier for me to wait, but it sounds like this might still be quite a ways off. Can you comment on a potential market date?

What are the current specs for the computer itself? Processor speed and type (P4, celeron, etc), memory size, hard disk size, video adapter?

I have another hobby project which involves 3D user interfaces. Will your PC support an AGP adapter?

Can I use my own display and simply pay less?

Thanks!

What is the possibility of accessing the steering wheel controls?

Would it be possible to tap into the data bus on the head unit and convert it to a USB HID device?

What about displaying text on head unit display?

I've read that the head unit may be made by Pioneer and may use a standard control protocol. Is this something you're considering for your model?

Thanks again. Sorry I've come up with so many questions.

eXentric,

The current specs include a 1GHz Via Epia motherboard. The motherboards have integrated processors. The advantages to this are that they are the mini-ITX form factor (nice and small), use a MUCH smaller amount of power than a full ATX PC would and can be operated without a fan (you don't want that humming interrupting your MP3 enjoyment do you?). Standard will be 512MB of RAM, but one of my major goals in this is to provide the end-user with the ability to completely customize the system the way they see fit (similar to Dell's approach). So, you want more RAM? No problem. You want a good quality soundcard, great, but if you want incredible sound through a SoundBlaster Extigy, even better. Hard drives will start at 40GB and grow from there. Unfortunately the mini-ITX machines generally do not support AGP, so unless I can find a fantastic new product out there before production starts, we'll most likely be looking at high-end PCI video.

Yes, you can absolutely use your own display and pay less.

The steering wheel interface was not my doing, that was Sputnik. That will require significant R&D time and I cannot comment on its feasability at this point. I'm not exactly sure what benefits it would yeild regardless since the audio of the computer will be played through the stock stereo those controls will function at least for volume and "mode" purposes just fine.

Keep us posted. I may go ahead with my original plans, but I'm sure you will see some interest. As for the steering wheel controls, I mainly would like the ability to change tracks in a playlist from there. But, that can be accomplished via any other input method.

I understand all of the reasons for the hardware specs you are proposing, and I agree with them. They just may not quite fill my needs.

Keep up the great work!

P.S. Can you provide a link to the mainboard specs? I'm wondering what the on-board video is and if it has firewire / usb 2.0, etc. Thanks!

Also, I don't think you replied to the time-to-market question (allthough that may have been intentionally avoided ;))

eXcentric,

Thanks for the comments!

Here are the specs for the motherboard.
http://www.via.com.tw/en/VInternet/mini_itx.jsp

Yes, the time-to-market was intentionally left out. I have to be careful about the details that I give to abide by the forum advertsing rules but I expect to have the prototype finished and installed by the end of the month and to start shipping a month or so after.

By all means, if you do decide to go with your own project, feel free to ask any questions you like. I've done quite a bit research and would be happy to share (but only with fellow RX-8 owners who agree not to try to steal any of my market share ;))

Great! Thanks for offering the help. And I understand your stance.

Just for the thread, I'm hoping I can have someone locally help me mold and turn my empty space (where the stock nav would be if I had it) into a 1-DIN slot. Once that's completed, I plan to use one of these two displays:

Display One (http://www.digitalww.com/VGA_GA700YY_indash.htm)

Display Two (http://www.digitalww.com/DWW-7VGA.htm)

RotorMotor, how do those compare to what you had planned? Can you offer similar quality for any cheaper? One of the two is motorized and the other is not. They are both 1-DIN slots, however, and I noticed in your earlier post that your solution would use the 'tray' approach but that it might be motorized. Can you elaborate on that at all?

Glad to see I'm not going at this alone! :)

Absoultely. I've actually been narrowing down the screen selection to the GA-700Y-Y (your first display) and another similar product. The trick is to be able to buy them in high enough quantities that I can discount it below what DigitalWW and other vendors are selling them for since it will be included as part of a package. Unforutnately, I'm not much for the look of the GA-700Y-Y. Those buttons are ugly. The Lilliput screens (here (http://www.digitalww.com/VGA_TM_710VG.htm)) are absolutely beautiful (the screen itself and the display) but aren't motorized. I'll likely offer these as an option for the fixed screens and am using one for the prototype.

The motorized screen will require that the back of the nav tray be removed and will be installed as shown below.

I'm still waiting on the nav tray from Canzoomer but should have details by the middle of next week.

Photo:

Thats great news. So, have you already determined that the 1-DIN motorized display will fit in the area if mounted as depicted in that image?

I was a bit worried that it would extend back too far and cause a problem with the center speaker or that the tray wouldn't be wide enough. But, if you can make it work and if you manage to undersell them, I'd deffinately buy at least the display kit directly from you.

Dare I say, good minds think alike :eek: :D

** Edit **

Duh, I just read it again and noticed that you didn't have the tray yet so you most likely haven't been able to validate the installation that way. Let us know when you get a chance to try it will ya? Thanks again.

If you dare to say so, I'll dare to agree with you! ;)

I'll give you the definte yes or no soon (well as soon as I can get my hands on a GA-700Y-Y).

Man, I may have to take back what I said about the specs on that PC. It may be quite enough. The Epia TC (http://www.viavpsd.com/product/epia_tc_spec.jsp?motherboardId=201) is actually quite impressive.

I notice that the Epia TC and Epia MII both support CardBus and CompactFlash. Have you toyed with the idea of using Windows XP Embedded on a CompactFlash card? That could provide extremely low (like 10 second) boot times from power off. I plan to connect a portable 120GB drive via firewire or USB 2.0 anyway for my media storage.

As you may or may not have read in another thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13952), I've already committed most of my trunk to a speaker box. I will have some room left in there, but based on the form-factor that you're looking at, can you think of any other place it might fit? Could it somehow be mounted below the glove box for example?

Not the glovebox, there's just not enough room, particularly if you wanted to mount a DVD drive and USB hub in there. The case I'm using will fit under the passenger seat which would work just as well. I have toyed with the idea of XP on a CF card and may end up doing so (the M10000 supports CF as well with an adaptor) if I can find sufficent reason to. Right now the prototype is booting up in the sub-12 second range which is pretty fast IMO. If you get an Epia board, make sure it has the Nemiah processor and not the Eden.

Where are the finished pics of your sub box? I looked through the thread but didn't see them. There are some SWEET mini-ITX cases that you could probably fit back that that would look tight.

Unfortunately my box is still awaiting completion. 90% of it was completed in the first week, but rotarygod been very busy ever since then. He's got my hopes up that we'll finish it all this weekend, but time will tell.

Whats the difference between the Nemiah and the Eden? Is it like the difference between a P4 and a Celeron?

Just so you know (if you don't already) it takes a bit of work to get Embedded XP setup right. Basically, Embedded XP is exactly like Windows XP, but with a 'locked down' core. Essentially, you install Windows XP, every driver you think you'll need, and whatever software you want as part of the embedded OS. Then you 'lock' the whole thing. This makes a bootable image that can be put on the CF card (or even on a ROM chip!). This image is guaranteed never to change and never to need write access (you must setup your swap partition elsewhere). What it does give you, however, is a very compact operating system with almost zero boot time because all of the drivers and OS files are already embedded and in a somewhat pre-initialized state.

If you are seeing sub 12-second boot times, then embedded XP would almost guarantee you something more like 2 second boot times. It is INCREDIBLE, and since you are never worried about the OS files getting corrupt, you can simply turn the machine on and off as you would a Pocket PC or other appliance. It's really cool stuff.

P.S. I wasn't saying IN the glove box, but rather underneith it. Like, if I could get somekind of shelf there. But if it would fit underneith the passenger seat, that would be even better.

Can you toss up a link to some of those casses you were talking about? I guess my other concern would be the amount of shock that would need to be absorbed if I were to mount the computer in the trunk along with the speaker box.

No, it's not as drastic as a Celeron vs. a Pentium chip. The Eden processors are the older model and have a number of bugs. The Nemiah has been getting rave reviews and, maybe particularly of interest to you, has vastly improved 3d graphics support.

Check out http://www.mini-itx.com/store/default.asp?c=15#p264 or google "mini-itx cases" for some cool stuff that you could probably fit with your sub.

Edit: Regarding your comment about shock, I wouldn't be as concerned with shock from your sub vibration (which is actually a very valid concern now that I think about it) as I would about shock from every day driving conditions (pot holes, bumpy roads, etc.) It's the jarring shocks that are going to crash a hard drive, dislodge an internal component of a DVD drive, etc. That's just one of the things that I intend to do better than everybody else on the market. Sorry, can't give that secret away though... ;)

This sounds very nice. Can't wait to see it come together!
FWIW, I have the factory nav system and would like to use the existing display and forego the touch screen input in favour of voice control for simple commands and using the nav system's joystick as a mouse for more complex ones. I'll haul out the keyboard for dealing with e-mail when I am parked. :-)

The link you sent was mostly cubes, but I did find this one (http://www.mini-itx.com/store/hush.asp) that I think is very very cool.

I'll do some more browsing later. Good stuff, really good stuff.

Originally posted by bobclevenger
This sounds very nice. Can't wait to see it come together!
FWIW, I have the factory nav system and would like to use the existing display and forego the touch screen input in favour of voice control for simple commands and using the nav system's joystick as a mouse for more complex ones. I'll haul out the keyboard for dealing with e-mail when I am parked. :-)

Unfortunately the stock navi screen is PAL/NTSC (televison) format. It can be done, but the quality of the image will be severely degraded. You really need a VGA display.

Originally posted by eXentric
...Basically, Embedded XP is exactly like Windows XP, but with a 'locked down' core. Essentially, you install Windows XP, every driver you think you'll need, and whatever software you want as part of the embedded OS. Then you 'lock' the whole thing. This makes a bootable image that can be put on the CF card (or even on a ROM chip!). This image is guaranteed never to change and never to need write access (you must setup your swap partition elsewhere). What it does give you, however, is a very compact operating system with almost zero boot time because all of the drivers and OS files are already embedded and in a somewhat pre-initialized state... What would one do with patches, driver updates, or additional drivers as new devices become available?

---jps

What would one do with patches, driver updates, or additional drivers as new devices become available?

Hm... that's a really good question. I haven't done this before because I don't have a PC that can boot off a CF card so a lot of what I've said is stuff that I have heard from other people or read. I would *think* that the core could be unlocked, added to and relocked, but that's just speculation on my part.

I'm honestly not sure. But, you don't have to lock the core until you want to, so make sure you get all your patches before you do this step. I don't know whether or not you can unlock and relock, but when I get to my car PC over the next couple of months, I will research it more and let you know. If someone else already knows, please chime in.

I just wanted to post so I could get alerts of new posts on this thread...MotoRotor, I'm very interested in your final product...i've been kicking around this idea myself for a month or so...I own an ISP in my area...we have about 45 wireless "hot spots" (access points) around the area so I'm really looking for a fully functional PC solution so that no matter where I am I can pull over and connect to my network...i'm also going to use my 8 as the demo for local law enforcement agencies on using our infrastructure for their mobile connectivity.....even though the idea of having a PC in your car is not a common thought right now I think there is a HUGE future in it.

Thanks for the words of encouragement rx8ntexas.

Just to give you guys an update, I've received all of the obscure parts. Just the FM modulator is left but that's readily available. It's going to take some work to mount the specialized power supply, but once I get that going we'll be able to install the computer. Should have some pictures ready before the holidays.

Originally posted by RotorMotor
Thanks for the words of encouragement rx8ntexas.

Just to give you guys an update, I've received all of the obscure parts. Just the FM modulator is left but that's readily available. It's going to take some work to mount the specialized power supply, but once I get that going we'll be able to install the computer. Should have some pictures ready before the holidays. With all of the effort that has been put into this, have you looked into the possibility of tapping the sound into the "TV Tuner" port instead?

---jps

This is the first I've heard of a TV tuner port. Can you elaborate or point me to a thread? I can't search for "TV Tuner" because TV is less than 3 characters....

You can search for stuff related to the navigation system. The A/V system piggybacks on the NAV system. I don't think there is much known about it yet...

Ya know, I cannot find that thread. Basically, it was referring to a schematic that someone had this summer or earlier. The info was on the attached picture, so it's practically impossible to search for. The schematic was in Japanese, but someone translated a couple of words, one of which was "TV Tuner". This was referring to the unused connector on the back of the head unit, right next to the antennae jack.

Very little else was translated, and I don't believe anyone has reported trying a couple of pinouts to see.

---jps

See this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16279) regarding the TV Tuner.

I was extreamly excited by this thread when I first started reading it, then I asked myself, why? I mean, what is the advantage of one of these rather than installing a mount for a tablet PC. You can get tablets for even less than the $1700 target and get just as much functionality. In fact, if you have more than one car, you could simply move it from car to car, and take into the office with you, and into the house, and into the cafe. The only reason I don't have nav in my 8 now is because it costs twice as much as some other solutions, and is permanently installed in a single car.

Originally posted by kristopher_d
I was extreamly excited by this thread when I first started reading it, then I asked myself, why?

Well I can only answer for myself, but i'm looking for a solution that stays in the car and mainly allows me to connect to a 802.11b wireless network so that I can use remote desktop and get back to my PC at the office where my "life" is. I have a tablet and a laptop and I find myself barely using the resources of the device other than its terminal connection back to my office PC. I may save a few things on them but really don't "use" them. My plan is to use my NAV screen, and have a wireless keyboard/mouse combo either mounted somewhere in the car or just hidden away till I need it....the mini PC will live in the trunk area and I'll have a mobile mount 2.4Ghz antenna in the back as well....I owns a wireless ISP with lots of access points around my area so that kind of setup would do me just fine...but also this type of thinking and engineering is what makes technology grow. A cool car like the Rx-8 is going to inspire alot of great ideas which will lead to more ideas and improved technology, and for those needing to package their new ideas I can't think of a better wrapping than the Rx-8.

the computer in the car idea is certainly a good one, but why the mine pc form factor? It seems to me that a similarly powered mobile pc should be capable of everything you just mentioned. I'm not shooting down the idea. I think its very cool. I'm just looking for an excuse to jump back on the band wagon. Once I applied a bit of rational thought to the situation, I couldn't come up with a good reason for it. Tablets support every function the in-trunk pc would.

Good point. Price I guess would be a factor...A new tablet is alot more than building your own mini PC. I thought about just tying my laptop into it....you know have a setup where you can just kinda "plug in" your laptop when you get in the car...something like that maybe

Hell, you could even mount the docking station in the nav tray.

As far a price, you can get a low end tablet for less than $1700 and easily move it from car to car. Maybe that's not an issue for most people, but I'm single with 3 cars.

Originally posted by kristopher_d
I mean, what is the advantage of one of these rather than installing a mount for a tablet PC.

If that's a solution that fulfills all of your needs, go for it. For me, it's not.

[list=1]
I too would like something fixed and have a little (actually a lot) more of an integrated appearance
Where do you plan to mount a 14" tablet in your car?
How do you plan to power it? I don't want to take my pc out of the car to charge it up every night.
No way to add a PCI wireless adapter for high-speed wireless internet (not 802.11*)
Most do not have serial ports (no OBDII)
[/list=1]

I could go on, but I think I've made my point. I'm by no means trying to discourage you from adding a tablet to your car, I'm just explaining why that's not a valid solution for my goals. ;) Good luck with whatever you choose to do!

Originally posted by kristopher_d
Hell, you could even mount the docking station in the nav tray.


The nav tray is not nearly large enough to support the tablet. Even if it were, you'd lose a huge amount of your front field of vision. Tablets are WAY too big to try to mount anywhere on the dash unless, perhaps, you removed the passenger side airbag and fabricated a panel to mount it there, but then how do you reach it? Anything larger than 7 or 8" will block your field of vision (read: make it illegal)

acer has a 10.1" tablet (the C300). Mount that at a slight rake away from you (in landscape format of course) and you're good to go. The field of vision on the tablets is really quite good.

All tablets come with 802.11 (microsoft requires that before they'll let an oem have the tablet O/S, and pcmcia slots, and usb. Get your ODBII through a USB serial interface. Check out Keyspan for those. Of course, you will need to purchase the GPS card separately, but then you get a choice of cards.

install the 12V powersupply behind the dash and run the cord up through the tray.

Anything smaller than a 10" display makes the PC part of the equation pointless. The screen will be too small with too low a resolution to run most navigation software. The old stuff required a minimum of 800X600. I'm sure most of the latest releases require 1024X768.

Again, just playing devils advocate. If I'm going to spend the kind of money we're talking about, It's gotta be portable.

Besides the size, the main problem I see with a tablet PC (or even a laptop for that matter) is that they would not truely be integrated into the car. Most of the car's functionality that could be connected to the PC's display (GPS, sensors, gauges, whatever) would have to connect to a serial or USB port. So you'd wind up with the tablet/laptop with a gagillion dongles hanging off of it - not exactly esthetically pleasing. Course, you could set up some sort of a docking station, which would help... but then you have the problem with the unit being a target for theft.

Integration would be paramount for me, otherwise you are inviting someone to break in and take it, and it will be very awkward to remove the tablet PC and hide the mount and wires when you do take it, so as not to attract bad elements.

Another concern of mine would be that it would get in the way of either you accessing the car's controls, or in the way of anyone in the passenger seat.

An integrated unit would also include more integrated controls, and custom interfaces which will be easier to use while operating the car, meaning it will require less of your attention, and be safer.

More importantly, it would take a bit of work to secure the tablet PC well enough so that it does not become airborne in the event of an accident. I may have missed it, but I have yet to see any acceptable mounts.

These are the same concerns I have with a handheld GPS unit vs. integrated, but on a larger scale (more space, weight, and more involved).

---jps

Many tablets will accept a VESA mount. Many VESA mounts are good for 100lb in a static environment. I guess if integration is the primary concern, then mounting a computer in your trunk is worth $1700 per car. Again, I've got 3 cars and would like to have the same functionality in all of them without spending another 6K

Originally posted by kristopher_d
Many tablets will accept a VESA mount. Many VESA mounts are good for 100lb in a static environment. I guess if integration is the primary concern, then mounting a computer in your trunk is worth $1700 per car. Again, I've got 3 cars and would like to have the same functionality in all of them without spending another 6K That's the thing, this isn't a static environment. Although it's only for a split-second, the G-forces generated in even a minor accident could cause a notebook computer to snap something that's rated at 100 lbs. That's why seatbelt mounts are made of a minimum grade 8 hardware, and need to handle thousands of pounds of fource. And don't forget, you're talking about lateral forces, so just because something can hold up 100 lbs doesn't mean that it can handle that force laterally (if I understand what you meant about the VESA mounts).

I can certainly understand and appreciate the desire to use the same equipment among several cars. Not only would this be less expensive (both in initial hardware and software license costs, and subsequent software upgrade/update costs for the OS, NAV data, etc.), but one would only have to spend the time and effort to load, customize, and maintain one system (not only OS stuff, but the music, saved emails, etc.). If you are the only person who drives those vehicles, that would work fine. But if a spouse also drove those vehicles, they would be without the use of the equipment, and any functions like gas mileage and sensor logging would be incomplete and inaccurate.

There is a compromise, though. One could have the touchscreen and other input/display devices integrated in the car, and have a "docking station" somewhere secure like the trunk of each vehicle for the computer itself. While you would have to spend more money to install each of the screens, etc., you wouldn't be replicating the more expensive computer and software license items.

---jps

Good points.

Of course, as long as some computer were plugged in, a vehicle user could keep their settings regardless of car, then synchronize all data between systems through a server setup.

One concern I haven't seen brought up yet (I think) with this whole idea of mounting a PC in the trunk is handling the heat. On a summer day in New England I wouldn't be surprised if it got to over 110-degrees in there. That can't be good for the CPU, memory or hard drive. How are you planning to handle that?

The Tablet PC idea -- sorry to say -- sounds a heck of a lot more practical. It's in the cockpit with you getting the cooling benefits of the AC, and when it's time to upgrade you're not taking apart components in the trunk. You can usually tap off the power of the cigarette lighter to power it if need be, get PCMCIA 802.11b devices and even USB hubs, etc. Pretty much has what you'd need, and cheaper.

no need for pcmcia 802.11b for a tablet. wi-fi is mandatory to carry the tablet pc O/S and trademark.

I'm by no means discounting the tablet as an option. For those who would rather have the mobility, it's a great product. I plan to offer a product for those that would rather have an integrated, dash mounted computer as opposed to a tablet in the passenger seat with a power cord running to the cigarette lighter.

Your point about heat is well taken. The mounting position hasn't been finally determined yet and may well be under the passenger seat. I honestly don't have much experience with machines running in small spaces, I usually work in refrigerated server rooms. One of the major reasons for choosing the Via processor is that it generates an extremely low amount of heat. We'll see how the tests go....

Heat would be a consideration, but it shouldn't be too much of a stumbling block. Just like with a notebook, most of the pieces used with this kind of setup will be low-power, and won't give off huge amounts of heat. We run amps in areas like the trunk, and they put off as much heat as a notebook. So one should be able to make it work.

---jps

Bear in mind that the trunk (boot) area is directly above the (HOT) exhaust system

Any updates?

RotorMotor,
Any test done???

Unforutuantely, no, there haven't been any tests at this point. I recently had a death in the family and have been dealing with that which has put a bit of a damper on getting things finished up. At this point, everything is ready to be installed, it's just a matter of finding the time to put it in. On top of that, I'm moving this month which is always an interruption.

The machine is done with the exception of the ODB-II functionality. There is some exciting work being done by some other forum members that can be integrated. As many of you are probably aware, OverLOAD is developing an aux-in module that will replace the need for an RF modulator. He's also building a CAN bus transceiver that will include digital gauges (ala the Mazdaspeed gauges on the nav system). Extremely cool stuff.

I will hopefully be installing everything the second weened in February (knock on wood). Thanks for the inquiries. I'll let you know as soon as I have something to show.

I hope that no one minds my jumping in like this, particuarly at this point in development, but looking at what's being done... it's rather exciting. It has also got me thinking about some possiblities...

Here are some thoughts from across the ocean...

The motorized/non-motorzied 1-din navi unit has obviously been available here for quite some time now (well really 2-din as the DVD/CD unit mounts separately). However, I have been very turned off by them as it ruins the "factory" look. I imagine that I'm not the only one who feels this way. However there are also complete in-dash units available aftermarket as well that don't necessarily use a touch screen, but the screen is the front panel of the unit. It fully mounts in the place of your stock 2-din space. These units have a navi DVD/CD slot and a CD player slot in addition to MD player (depending on the unit). I personally find this form factor more appealing.

How much space is available behind the stereo inside the dash? Does anyone know much extra there is beyond the size of the OEM stereo? It would be nice to have a 100% drop-in unit, however, I have a feeling that it isn't going to fit in that area. But that's ok if the CPU unit size can be kept to an absolute minimum for under the passenger seat or trunk mounting.

Regarding trunk mounting... yes using mobile components saves on electricity needed and also heat output. Yes, many stereo amps don't have fans and put out some decent heat. But you should also know that higher-end (read more powerful) amps do have integrated cooling fans and/or people add fans to their install to keep the temp down. So... those of us who have worked with 1U servers, FWs, etc. know those tiny fans are loud (due to the high RPM). Thus I'd recommend skipping those for squeezing in one flat but large fan.

As I mentioned an in-dash rather than pop-up mounted screen may be preferrable (market survey?) for many who prefer to keep the clean factory look... thus the removal of the OEM stereo and the necessity of integrating a tuner and amp to power the stock 6 speakers at least. You might be thinking about the increasing complexity, etc., however this becomes another selling point as you also include RCA outputs for those like eXcentic who would like to go for a higher-end system with amps and subs.

Regarding wireless capabilities... there are some things that everyone seems to be forgetting. As Japan is the world's largest cell phone market and has the latest in cell phone techonolgy... it stands to say that it is a future view of what's coming to other markets. Integrated cell phone for internet access may not be the best idea. For some here it makes perfectly good sense, however, if anyone is thinking of the broader market... it doesn't. Who want to have a cell phone bill and ISP bill for their car and their handheld?

Using Windows XP? Even if Embedded XP certain... drawbacks. Advantages are easy to use and setup... little work needed for you... however... there is cost among things to think of. Also complexity of the interface.

There is more, but I don't know if anyone is listening or interested, cares or whatever in what I've been saying thus far. For anyone who is... I have a few resources that I may be able to tap here for things such as LCD's... from the original marker. Sharp doesn't make those screens you're buying! PM me if this is getting your attention...

What happend to the good ol days of open sourcing your project and having a bunch of people working on it? I would love to help out with something like this, however, I don't have the knowledge of things like the ODBII interface, working with touch screens, etc. On the other hand, I have been a java developer for over 4 years now and love to help. So maybe you can think about opening your project to the rest of the community. Maybe we will see even more cool ideas coming out of it that way too.

As for some of the other comments, I recently saw another in car project where they just mounted a laptop on a shelf on the top of the trunk. Another intresting part of this project was that it was done on a Mac. This has many benifits to it as well, including built in Voice commands, wireless, etc. I realize that you are way too far down the road in development to change hardware/OS, but just wanted to throw that out there.

One more question, I think i remember you saying you were going to include wireless internet with some service. What service were you going to use for this?

Keep up the great work and keep us updated!

serff

I just had a look at the website and under the Photo Gallery there is a picture of the Hyprid PC. This reminds me of an earlier version of the Cappuccino Mini PC (http://www.cappuccinopc.com/) or something like that from a couple of years, ago.

Thanks for all the great suggestions guys. Japan8, love the ideas and I'm actually looking for a good carbon fiber molder in my area as we speak to create a mold to replace the stereo with the screen which will also require building an AM/FM tuner into the PC. I'm going to continue with the original plan of using the nav tray, but I've been thinking about this for a few weeks now and finally decided it would be a better solution. The screen fits in the space between the top of the climate control knobs and the bottom of the hazard light button almost perfectly. I've been extremely busy for the past few days, but will post more information as soon as I can (hopefully tonight).

RotorMotor...
No prob. There is actually a lot more, but... as I am considering making this into a large scale business I can only toss out but so many of them. What you've got going so far sounds cool! You're using the mini-ITX, right? What are you doing for the AM/FM tuner? What are you using for a DVD/CD drive?

Don't forget... if you are replacing the OEM stereo, you'll need to wire this into the Bose system (could be a serious pain). using the Bose, I dunno if you'll need an amp at the head unit, but for non-bose systems you will have to cover that part as well.

Keep us posted on how it develops.

Oh... that new Pioneer unit is sick. Motorized popup touch screen and the DVD/CD drive all in 1DIN. Plus when the screen is retracted it looks and displays like a regular 1DIN head unit... controls mounted like a regular stereo as well (meaning not all touch screen). But the price... OUCH! Pioneer is raping people on profit...

RotorMotor,

What do you plan on doing for power to the PC you install? Adding an inverter or installing one that runs off of 12VDC?

Originally posted by Japan8
RotorMotor...
No prob. There is actually a lot more, but... as I am considering making this into a large scale business I can only toss out but so many of them. What you've got going so far sounds cool! You're using the mini-ITX, right? What are you doing for the AM/FM tuner? What are you using for a DVD/CD drive?

Don't forget... if you are replacing the OEM stereo, you'll need to wire this into the Bose system (could be a serious pain). using the Bose, I dunno if you'll need an amp at the head unit, but for non-bose systems you will have to cover that part as well.

Keep us posted on how it develops.

Damn it Japan8!!! I no longer have any intention of using the nav tray (and it's all your fault! :D) which means it's going to put off installation for another few weeks is is going to piss a bunch of thus-far patient people off. I found a guy over the weekend that can do the carbon fiber fabrication, but I have yet to meet with him (he's a good 45 minute drive away).

I was also thinking about building a business out of this, but since Microsoft has already alluded major in-car computing plans over the next few years and the fact that building clean installations for various makes and models would get rediculously time consuming and expensive I think I'll limit any sales to people on this board that are interested.

Yes, it's mini-ITX. There will be a slim-line CDRW/DVD drive mounted in the glove compartment in addition to the one in the case. There used to be many PCI based AM/FM tuners available. I haven't looked around yet, but I'm sure I'll be able to find something easily.

As far as the Bose system goes, I'm going to gut it. I didn't really like it that much in the first place. I'll be routing the sound from the PC directly into amps that'll output to new speakers.

hootersam, I'm using a specialized power supply that uses DC current. It also boots the computer up and puts it into hibernate mode when you turn the car on and off as well as monitors the battery power and shuts the PC down if the battery gets too low.

Oh, Japan8, can you post a link to that Pioneer HU?

Here is the Pioneer link...
http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/article/0,,2076_3155_15561472,00.html

And you've got a P/M coming...

Are there any plans for a basic setup with a PDA?

No, not at this point. PDA screens are too small and the PDAs themselves do not provide enough storage space to make them useful as MP3 libraries or navigation tools. The maps for most navigation software titles are generally 1GB+.

any progress on this at all or did I miss out on an announcement? Way to exciting of an idea to just ignore :)

bump

thew, what do ya want to know? Same for glxyjones...

Yeah, there are no updates yet. The computer is fully built and everything is ready to go, I'm just looking for installation solutions at this point. With so many discussions going on about this now, I'm hoping we can collectively come up with a clean installation....

I wonder about using the location of the stock nav dvd unit. If not maybe mounting it flush against the back of the rear seats or finding somewhere under the rear deck to mount it.

I originally bought the JDM nav tray from Canzoomer, but later decided that it wouldn't be a truly integrated look. I asked my dealer about ordering the nav assembly without the screen, but he said that wasn't possible as it's all listed as a single part. I really want an installation that will hide the screen when the car is turned off as well. Back seats won't do me any good for the navigation functionality, but it could be kinda cool to run a terminal server or and allow the backseat passengers to allow them to have control of the carputer as well.... ;)

OH you're refering to the screen. I was talking about the CPU.

Well you could try mazmart and get a used stock nav hood if they have any. Another option is to build a custom version of the stock nav hood. Another way to look at it is this... how much is the stock nav hood w/ screen? A replacement 1DIN dash panel will run you $300-400 or more. Plus you need a motorized screen setup for that as well... another $600-800.

OH! I'm planning on just mounting the CPU in the trunk and running a 12" VGA cable and USB hub up to the front of the car. It's just easiest that way. I have one of the Travala C137 mini-ITX cases (which is certainly not the smallest, allows you more PCI slots than most of the smaller ones) and it MIGHT squeeze under the front seat, but I doubt it.

The nav assembly was $1400 I believe. I'm probably going to be selling the Lilliput screen that I have and buying a motorized one.

I think the cost isn't too different between the stock nav hood and a motorzied 1DIN solution. But it's up to each person to decide what solution is right for them and their budget.

Yeah I agree...if another solution doesn't come along soon I'm might just buy the 1DIN replacement and a motorized

but then again, the more I look at it, the more I think it will be a pain in the a$$ so reach for simple controls (like playing mp3's).

haha I guess I'm still holding onto my ash tray/cigarette lighter mounting idea...I think right in front of the shifter would be perfect :)

my 1din dash piece was only $350($400 if i wanted to keep my original piece), the alpine cva 1005 bought 4 years ago was $1000.... you can get motorized head units cheaper than that now....

Originally posted by glxyjones
but then again, the more I look at it, the more I think it will be a pain in the a$$ so reach for simple controls (like playing mp3's).

I'm working with a buddy of mine to mount a laptop-like touch pad in the center console infront of the seat warmers (where the stock nav controls usually are), but I'll have the border and buttons made out of carbon fiber. Just an idea....

Originally posted by kidcas
you can get motorized head units cheaper than that now...
Yeah, unfortunately 1din, motorized VGA screens are much harder to come by. Not a lot of selection out there....

Commands like Music, Radio, Phone, Destination would all be sensible and achievable - imagination and a bit of voice training would be required...

Imagine...

You: Dobbie performance
RX8: Profile?
You: High power
RX8: ECU remapping in progress
<pause>
RX8: High power mode enabled




PERFECT!!

I'm also working on an application for us California folks (hopefully the rest of the country when services are available) to re-route the nav system based on monitoring real-time traffic. You would have to have an internet equipped PC, but that's my dream time-saver...

Where will you get the congestion/incident data?

Where will you get the congestion/incident data?

they have a system for nav owners in japan just like this...to bad the US sucks when it comes to technology...you could have the data pulled from the state website but each state's technology is different...it would be an absolute mess doing...better off going to the website from your car and check it out then trying to integrate it into the nav system, Trust me on this one

the pc in the start of this thread is HUGE, overpriced, and really weak compared to the stuff our japanese brothers make...kind of opposite the RX-8 when you think of it

You will have the option of having a retractable screen or not. The retractable screen will use the aftermarket navigation tray (see Canzoomer's forum for info) and a fully motorized, retractable screen. The fixed screen will also use the navigation tray and will cost considerably less.

Have you considered liasing with Mazda to get the motorised flip-up bit without their propriety display installed. Then you can integrate this into your setup.
Just a thought. It's what I would want...

Also, I am in the U.K. if that matters?? I am guessing that the only issue is PAL/NTSC for the TV tuner/DVD playback, and I would think that this would be an option anyway. Right?

Cool Mike. I think someone posted a link to you site a while ago and it looked a lot like vaporware because of your website, but it is good to see you will actually be demoing your product at SEMA. I would be careful posting like you did (it sounded like a sales pitch to me) before talking to the moderators of the board.

Anyway, you guys should really work on your web site. You seem to like flash, make a flash demo of your application.

Can your system plug into the factory NAV? Does it only work in the RX8? Let us know some more details!

serff

I was just going to say the same thing as hybidmike. it is shaping up very well. With the guys on that forum beta testing it you are sure to get a great package... as many of them have written some in-car GUI for windows like mediacar and media engine....

you going to have steering wheel controls be able to control whatever media player your going to use

***moderator edit***


I'm glad you choose to upgrade...I was weary at first :)

A Pentium 4 has low power consumption and low noise?! Sure plenty of people are running them in their cars... but it's the wrong approach. You don't need that much power to run the kind of apps you should run in a car (meaning no auto CAD, and do you really need Quake running in the car too?). The approach should be stripping down the OS to the bare essentials to reduce processing load. The plain truth is that a Pentium 4 is HOT... HOT = drawing lots of power...

While sure... Windows CE.Net is more limited than running XP, and will require you to do a bit of driver work... but as MS says... it's a real time OS. Instant on. NOt 15 sec boot time... milisecond boot time. Running on a low power mobile chip it:ll be more than powerful enough for DVD, MP3 and navigation. Hell email and basic web browsing is no biggie either.

I assume your hardware has the proper voltage regulators, etc. built in. What about startup/shutdown controlling for ignition (turning the car on and off)? How does your product's setup compare to Opus or MP3car.com's stuff?

As for the onboard lan... that isn't wireless is it? You're better off getting wireless LAN incorporated into the MoBo instead of wired 10/100.

As for audio... how is the quality of the on-board AC'97? Some people on mp3car complained about the sound quality of the on-board stuff (particularly with the VIA mini-ITX board)... they say it's gotta be Sound Blaster Audigy or die...

That's about all I can think of to nit pick on right now...

they have a system for nav owners in japan just like this...to bad the US sucks when it comes to technology...you could have the data pulled from the state website but each state's technology is different...it would be an absolute mess doing...better off going to the website from your car and check it out then trying to integrate it into the nav system, Trust me on this one

the pc in the start of this thread is HUGE, overpriced, and really weak compared to the stuff our japanese brothers make...kind of opposite the RX-8 when you think of it


Where do you get weak? Huge? Sure there are much smaller ones out now, but it's not so big... not bigger than a Shuttle PC. How much power do you need for an in-car system? The Japanese make faster pc's? When did the Japanese start making their own x86 chips? What are you using to make your comparisions and judgements??

I priced together a mini-itx system with dvd player for about 500 (without screen about 800 with). I'm in the process of saving up funds to buy the components. I have just purchased the screen (7" lilliput touchscreen) but nothing else yet. I plan on mounting it, atleast temporarily, on a flex-arm which would come out of the hole right next to the glove box. And then EVENTUALLY integrating it into the dash down the road when an affordable option comes out. I'll keep you all posted if there's any progress!!!