Ok, here we go, i took some advice and i wont be making meaningless or dumb comments,
I did some research in non arab sources, and found maps and facts about the situacion.

Here we see a map of Palestine in 1947 and we can the land that the jewish people have migrated in,http://www.palestineremembered.com/Maps/new/JewishOwnedLandInPalestineAsOf1947.gif
source: Palestine Remembered, 2001

Here we see the Original map of the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan,one Palestinian Arab (45%) and one Jewish (55%) state, The Palestinians rejected the plan because it was unfair.
http://domino.un.org/maps/m0082.gif

The UN Partition Plan recommended that 55 percent of Palestine, also the most fertile region, be given to the Jewish settlers who compromised 30 percent of the population. The remaining 45 percent of Palestine was to comprise a home for the other 70 percent of the population who were Arab. The Palestinians rejected the plan because it was unfair. During Israel's "war of independence," 700,000 Palestinians were driven out of their homes and 418 villages were depopulated and destroyed, what is today referred to as 'ethnic cleansing'. By 1949 Israel had captured 78% of historic Palestine.
In 1967 Israel captured the remaining 22% of Palestine. Currently 3 million Palestinians live under the oldest and most brutal military occupation in history.
In 1967, during the Six Day War, Israel occupied the West Bank, (including East Jerusalem) and Gaza Strip, which had been under the control of Jordan and Egypt. The West Bank and Gaza Strip comprise 22% of historic Palestine. This war created new refugees.


Now compare and see how The Jews took the land Illegaly,
the pic at the left is the U.N map and the right is the Israeli state and the Palestinian state (look at it and look at the pic up top and ull see that the Palestinians deserv this land.
http://www.jatonyc.org/changemap2.jpg and http://www.jatonyc.org/changemap3.jpg
source: Jews Against the Occupation, New York

Links : www.http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/index.php
and http://www.jatonyc.org

and if u want to see the situacion in Palestine that the U.S censors from you guys go to www.PalestineChronicle.com and view the snapshots taken by an american citizen.

please mods dont close it, and please guys lets not start to insult each other, thank you

There a point to this?

Pimp,

Well done and thought out. My only suggestion is to type your text in word and do a spell check. Your internet shortcuts can make it hard to read.

But looking at the last couple of maps, It looks like the Jewish state is smaller now then in 1947. Do you know why?

Mental Pimp:
Currently 3 million Palestinians live under the oldest and most brutal military occupation in history.
1. The people of Tibet, Chechnia, Cashmere, southern Sudan and a dozen other regions around the world may disagree with you on that.

2. Had the Palestinians accepted the 1947 treaty, they'd be much better off than they are now. Instead they sided with Egypt, Jordan and Syria, who promised to "drive the Jews into the sea" and give 100% of the land to the Palestinians. Fair or not, they screwed up. And for that they have no one to blame but themselves.

Yup, "non-arab" sources? Maybe, but they certainly are not objective materials.

http://www.palestineremembered.com

www.http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org

www.PalestineChronicle.com


source: Jews Against the Occupation, New York

Palestine and Israel have been fighting since bible time. Even if you free palestine your not going to stop the war between them 2. Oh yah what is your point in this again? Mod please do close it.

Originally posted by mental pimp
I did some research in non arab sources

The sources may be non-arab, but they're hardly impartial - "palestine remembered", "jews against the occupation"?

What is the debate you wish? You stated facts, but not any proposals or analysis for debate. However, the facts are misleading again - you discuss the 1967 war as creating new refugees - it's most worthwhile to note that it was Egypt and Syria that attacked Israel. Israel didn't start the war, they were the defenders being attacked. Egypt and Syria were responsible for the loss of land in 1967. Spoils of war - they started it, and they lost. As mentioned, Palestinians happily sided with Egypt and Syria to attempt to completely destroy Israel. As mentioned in the earlier thread, Palestinians were offered land and peace in 2000, and it was the Palestinians who rejected the offer, because Arafat still harbored dreams of destroying Israel instead of peacefully coexisting. The Palestinians themselves seem to hurt their cause more than help it... that is, assuming their cause is peace and a homeland. If their cause is yet the destruction of Israel, they're still not doing too well.

Regards,
Gordon

I have a well thought-out, measured and intellectual response to this debate. I have spent many years pondering the question of Israel/Palestine and spent a significant amount of time in school on the subject.
I am an on-going student of the situation and, frankly, I feel that I have a vested interest in the outcome.

That said, This is NOT that response.
This is what I feel is the truth of the matter.

I feel the only resolution will be reached when all involved parties on one side of the conflict or the other are completely eradicated.
Dead.
Gone.

One side must be completely annihilated for the resolution to be found because neither side will ever relent and both insist on keeping the solution an elusive, moving target.
There is nothing to be gained politically in a resolution of the conflict - aid money will go away were that to happen and aid money to both sides - especially "humanitarian" aid to the Palestinians - is a far more lucrative contract than any immediate capitalist plan that could be put in place sans-conflict.

Of course, only one side of the disagreement has the firepower to yield this type of result and it is not, in the eyes of the Arab world, the right side. So, we are straddled with this issue until it is allowed to get real ugly and the UN and US will never allow that again.

Its funny how the people of Syria, Jordan and Egypt couldn't have given a camel's nut with regard to what was happening in that New Jersey-sized parcel of desert or the indigenous population before the Jews came in and developed it into a civilized state. Now it has become valuable in the last half-century to the nomads that squatted on that land for over 40 centuries because someone else found the "buried treasure" that is civilization and not them.

Pimp:

Good start. I would make sure you get your info from also Pro-Israel sites as well. Since you have a strong vested interest in one side, I think it may be very difficult for you to see the whole story. As there is often 3 sides to the story: yours, mine, and the truth.

The last map I am having some problems with as you cannot just put a map up and say that Israel took all the Palastine land.. . I mean there is no dates, or anything.. a quite usless map in my mind. Why was the land taken and under what circumstances? you need to answer that before you make a broad statement that Israel took it illegally.

You seem to be doing a lot or research. I commend you because I know that a vast majority of people would never have taken the time to do so.

Unfortunately, we are dealing with a person who does not have the maturity to deal with a highly complex issue responsibly. One can read over 100 books on the subject, and even lived in the area as I have, and still not grasp it all.

Hate is the only motivation for this person- much like the actual players in the situation.

How sad.

Please don't close this thread prematurely.There are few topics deeper or more interesting than this. If we manage to discuss this in a civillised manner it could be quite educational.

Hate is the only motivation for this person- much like the actual players in the situation.

How sad. Ditto. How true.

As in the first ignorant discussion on this topic, where you commended and admitted to supoorting terrorist bombings, you fail to realize the truth, which is Isreal is the defenders and being attacked. Gord is right on when he said that Isreal was defending their land when the Arab's were trying to eradicate them. Sticks and stones weren't able to defeat guns and the Arabs lost the war AND ADDITIONAL LAND. SPOILS OF WAR. It is like gambling. Instead of trying for smaller profit but better odds, the Arabs rolled the dice of larger profit with much worse odds. And instead of losing money, they lost land. Of course they aren't happy about it now, but too bad. You talk about ethnic cleansing against the Palestinians?! What a farse! It is completely 180 degrees in the other direction. The only people that don't see it that way are the Arabs. Period. THe whole world sees it that way, but it is Isreal that is the bad people. Please. The Arab countries do no good what so ever in the global economy. They live in chaos, their minds are brainwashed, their children are brought up to hate, when people come to help with structure and organization you turn them away, we ask you to put down your guns and there are riots, the only thing Arab countries have is oil and if they weren't lucky enough to be living on top of it they would have nothing. You can't build anything, you can't even feed your own people. I take that last statement back, they can but your so-called "governments" are so hostile that they use food an water AGAINST their own people to rally support. They kill civilians if they catch wind that they don't agree with their tactics. Their so-called news organizations are owned by that very same dictatorship that kills civilians. You think the news people are going to show the truth? Think again. You think your Palestinian chronicle is bipartisan? I laugh in your general direction. When the Arabs can call CNN an unfair news source, it is slanderous. Everything your people stand for is hideous. Not all Arabs/Palestinians are bad. There probably a handful that genuinely disagree with their leadership but can't say anything. For those people I feel bad. But for the vast majority, I speculate well over 90%, the world would be better off if they didn't exist. Yeah I said it. What would the world lose? Perhaps Egyptian cotton/silk. The difference is that Arabs/Palestinians want the Isreali's dead. The Israeli's, while not fond of the Arabs/Palestinians would live in harmony if they weren't being attacked. That is fact. I showed you in the past thread the amount of terrorist activity since 1975. Isreal had 2 terrorists attacks, killing 2 people (who were governemental head gurus in a terrorist organization). The Arabs had hundreds of attacks killing thousands on INNOCENT PEOPLE. You want war??? Then why attack INNOCENT PEOPLE in pizza parlors? Go after the army of head government agents. When Isreal responds back, they ONLY GO AFTER TERRORIST OFFICIALS...never do they go after civilians purposely. Sometimes civilians get caught in the crossfire, then your leaders are all up in arms about how the Isreali military attacked innocent people.

There was no reason for you to make this a thread. This is a very sensitive issue of which you are the only one on that side of the fence. It does not need to be discussed here. I urge the mods to close this thread. Maybe you made it since the Arabs made a number of terrorist attacks again.

If you hate Isreal and the US (who supplies the Isrealis with money), get the F*CK out of this country!

definitely an interesting thread, and as people already noted, one that probably will never be settled... there are right and wrong on both sides, but people that see it from the outside, like myself, that really dont have a vested interest in either side emotionally, sees it that one side is clearly worse than the other... quite simply, like a previous poster said, Isreal has the firepower to fully eradicated the palestinians and blow them out... they use that force mainly in defense of their people and in response to attacks on innocent people... if that situation was switched one night and Israel lost that firepower, and was transferred to the palestinians, the moment after, all out offensive assault would start and the jewish state would not exist 24 hours later... that point alone should provide the reasons for the world to side with Israel, but oil, and money is a great motivator to even considering a palestinian state

"2. Had the Palestinians accepted the 1947 treaty, they'd be much better off than they are now. "

this is false. the 47 borders were agreed to in the un resolution, the ben-gurion faction opted to start the war of independence instead, and the rest is history. 67 borders is what most people are fighting for, and as long as the palestinans have a map this time, and maybe an actual leader, things might change.

all the other posts were way too long and probably based outside of historical fact, and not worth responding to anyways :)

Originally posted by Goldenhue22


Their so-called news organizations are owned by that very same dictatorship that kills civilians. You think the news people are going to show the truth? Think again. You think your Palestinian chronicle is bipartisan? I laugh in your general direction. When the Arabs can call CNN an unfair news source, it is slanderous.

American news organizations are far from bipartisan or fair, and this has become more and more true under the Bush administration. Fox News Network is basically the al-Jazeera of the White House. While the American government does not technically own the news networks, the people that do own the news networks (who are an increasingly small number of people) have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. It's rather absurd to consider the American news networks impartial, ESPECIALLY when it comes to covering international news. Watch BBC News and see the difference...

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
Everything your people stand for is hideous. Not all Arabs/Palestinians are bad. There probably a handful that genuinely disagree with their leadership but can't say anything. For those people I feel bad. But for the vast majority, I speculate well over 90%, the world would be better off if they didn't exist. Yeah I said it. What would the world lose?

Exactly how many Arabs do you personally know well enough to make a judgement of them? Not ALL Arabs are bad? Really??? There are a HANDFUL that are ok with you???? Wow, you're so open-minded!!! I ask you to think about what the world would lose when losing any of its peoples - you speak like a true Nazi.

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
The Israeli's, while not fond of the Arabs/Palestinians would live in harmony if they weren't being attacked. That is fact.

Sure, the Israeli's would love to live in harmony with the Palestinians. As long as the Palestinians stay on their own small piece of the land which they've been alotted, and remember to carry around their handy-dandy ID cards with them so they can be harrassed by Israeli soldiers at checkpoints! Then they'd be like one big happy family!

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
I showed you in the past thread the amount of terrorist activity since 1975. Isreal had 2 terrorists attacks, killing 2 people (who were governemental head gurus in a terrorist organization). The Arabs had hundreds of attacks killing thousands on INNOCENT PEOPLE. When Isreal responds back, they ONLY GO AFTER TERRORIST OFFICIALS

Have you ever thought about the meaning of the word "terrorist." What does it mean exactly? Anyone that America doesn't agree with? The Palestinians are commonly known as terrorists, and the Israelis as soldiers - what exactly is the difference? Ok, you'll say its the fact that Palestinian bombers do their dirty work without a government head and attack civilians. Well they have no choice- they have no money and no way of organizing an army to compete with Israel's. When you're poor and disorganized, your way of fighting has to be carrying a bomb into a supermarket etc. Israel can attack with high-tech missiles, Palestinians cannot. Both sides violence is equally discipable.

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
This is a very sensitive issue of which you are the only one on that side of the fence.

Why does it have to be two sides of a fence? Can't we look at things objectively and see that both parties have been wronged? This type of thinking is ironic, since Israels response has been to build a huge fence keeping the Palestinians out of most of Israel.


Originally posted by Goldenhue22
It does not need to be discussed here.

Why not? This is the lounge...If you don't want to discuss here, then don't. Nobody's forcing you. Are you afraid of your precious status quo being disrupted?

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
If you hate Isreal and the US (who supplies the Isrealis with money), get the F*CK out of this country!

Spoken like a true....well I won't even say it because we're not supposed to call names here...

By the way, learn how to spell ISRAEL. And no, I am not Arab and have no affiliation with them whatsoever. I just don't swallow the news as it's fed to me and say "thank you, more please."

I could not pass this up. I am new to this forum, and was surprised to see a palestine/Israel debate here. We are all supposed to have the same creed here, the RX-8 brotherhood. I am disappointed to see some of the name calling, but encouraged that our brothers and sisters have deeper thoughts than just a pretty car.

From historical stand point, there is no dispute that Palestine was stolen for it's original owners, but that ‘s the past and it can not be changed. Now we have two new young generations who are absolutely miserable, our young israelis live in a constant state of terror, and the young palestinians are humiliated daily, and have nothing to look forward to, except to terrorize the young Israelis. It is a tragedy for both people, as the jailer and the prisoner can no longer move on.

In my opinion both have to accept the fact that history is longer relevant. The have two basic options:
1- two state solution. Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders, and for the world to develop a compensation plan for the refugees. Israel can not afford to do this alone. Israel needs to withdraw now, what are they waiting for? If they withdraw today, and Palestinians attack the whole world will stand behind Israel's response. If we are still concerned with security, give palestine to the Jordanians, they have been good neighbors for the past 30 years.
2- One state solution, just annex the whole god damn thing and everyone lives equal under the law. What is wrong with that concept, that is what we Americans believe in. The Arab Israelis have proven to be good Israeli citizens. Call the land Israel-Palestine confederation.

My friends often refer to me as a self hating jew, but at least I have compassion to all of my RX-8 brothers and sisters regardless of their origin.

Originally posted by mqandil

In my opinion both have to accept the fact that history is longer relevant. The have two basic options:
1- two state solution.
2- One state solution, just annex the whole god damn thing and everyone lives equal under the law. What is wrong with that concept, that is what we Americans believe in. The Arab Israelis have proven to be good Israeli citizens. Call the land Israel-Palestine confederation.

My friends often refer to me as a self hating jew, but at least I have compassion to all of my RX-8 brothers and sisters regardless of their origin.
solution works very well, and life has been never so good for all races and religions. The economy is doing well. The solution is very easy we: have given every body equal rights.

Mqandil your words are very wise. The conflict will only end if every Palestinian has the same rights as every Jew. If the Palestinian stays in Israel, the territories or somewhere else, he should be given the same rights as the every Jew. It is very easy. The one state solution is the only way to go. Otherwise there will be more fighting and killing.

My heart cries with every innocent person that is harmed or killed be it a Jew or a Palestinian.

BTW: My RX-8 is arriving tomorrow, first in Cape Town.:)

Originally posted by revhappy
Yup, "non-arab" sources? Maybe, but they certainly are not objective materials.

http://www.palestineremembered.com

www.http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org

www.PalestineChronicle.com


source: Jews Against the Occupation, New York

i didnt get all my info from those sites, actually i didnt even touch www.palestineremembered.com or www.palestinechronicle.com ,
i mainly used www.fromoccupiedpalestine.com and www.jewsagainsttheoccupation.org (its a non arab site) wat u will see in www.palestinechronicle.com is how the palestinian people have to live under israeli rule

hey Goldenhue, i actually dont hate Israeli people, my dads friend which he is from Gaza is married to an Israeli woman whose brother died in a suicide bombing attack, still they have 4 kids and theyr living a good life, and i get along wit them, so stop accusing me as a nazi, wat i cant be mad at the Israeli government for killing off my people?

Goldenhue , you also call the suicide bombers Terrorist but the Israelis are not? http://www.hoffman-info.com/palestine46.html

Originally posted by matt
Pimp,

Well done and thought out. My only suggestion is to type your text in word and do a spell check. Your internet shortcuts can make it hard to read.

But looking at the last couple of maps, It looks like the Jewish state is smaller now then in 1947. Do you know why?

no, the jewish state (israel) now is bigger, look at the picture on the right which shows the small land that the palestinians have, and the rest is all Jewish owned land

Originally posted by noahprtlnd
Sure, the Israeli's would love to live in harmony with the Palestinians. As long as the Palestinians stay on their own small piece of the land which they've been alotted, and remember to carry around their handy-dandy ID cards with them so they can be harrassed by Israeli soldiers at checkpoints! Then they'd be like one big happy family!

If some Palestinians didn't have a tendency to cross the checkpoints with suicide bombs strapped under their jackets, I suspect the checkpoints would be a lot less harassing.

Well they have no choice- they have no money and no way of organizing an army to compete with Israel's. When you're poor and disorganized, your way of fighting has to be carrying a bomb into a supermarket etc.

Mahatma Ghandi already proved you (and the Palestinians) wrong, 55 years ago. India won their freedom from Great Britain without war, without terrorist activities. The difference is that India didn't want to kill all the British, they just wanted them to leave. A peaceful revolution is entirely possible. As has already been mentioned - the Palestinians have been offered peace and land on several occasions, and continue to reject it, to their great detriment.

Regards,
Gordon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
[B]"2. Had the Palestinians accepted the 1947 treaty, they'd be much better off than they are now. "

<<this is false. the 47 borders were agreed to in the un resolution, the ben-gurion faction opted to start the war of independence instead, and the rest is history.>>

Your statement is patently false. It was the Arabs who attacked, and if you're interested you can even read the news articles and reports of that day on the web. Egyptian Spitfires raked Tel-Aviv, the Jordanians and the Syrians moved their tanks and armies in.

They lost, and truly, the rest is history.

Originally posted by mental pimp
hey Goldenhue, i actually dont hate Israeli people, my dads friend which he is from Gaza is married to an Israeli woman whose brother died in a suicide bombing attack, still they have 4 kids and theyr living a good life, and i get along wit them, so stop accusing me as a nazi, wat i cant be mad at the Israeli government for killing off my people?

You would be far better off getting mad at your fellow Arabs who have been using you as pawns for their own goals. What happened was essentially a population exchange, which is how the UN did things in those days. There were over 750,000 Jews who were forced to vacate Muslim countries after having lived in them before Muhammad even lived. Learn your history, will you???

that looks like total bulls*hit^

Young Mr.Pimp,
Don't get so excited.Continue to do research and ,at your age do some listening. Everyone else: Please don't be too hard on the young man.

Originally posted by mqandil
...
2- One state solution, just annex the whole god damn thing and everyone lives equal under the law. What is wrong with that concept, that is what we Americans believe in. The Arab Israelis have proven to be good Israeli citizens. Call the land Israel-Palestine confederation.

My friends often refer to me as a self hating jew, but at least I have compassion to all of my RX-8 brothers and sisters regardless of their origin. Yup. I'll vote for that. The preamble to this mess is the perception that they can't co-exist. Oil/water. They need to drop the whole ego trip thing, humble themselves and get on with a life. For crying out loud! Let it go!

Originally posted by MP3Guy
There were over 750,000 Jews who were forced to vacate Muslim countries after having lived in them before Muhammad even lived. Learn your history, will you???

why do i think this is bullsh*t???

how can there be muslim countries or muslims before Muhammad ever lived, if he brought Islam to the arab people, that right there says it all.

Originally posted by mental pimp
why do i think this is bullsh*t???

how can there be muslim countries or muslims before Muhammad ever lived, if he brought Islam to the arab people, that right there says it all.

Let me make it simple for you (sigh)

There were Jewish communities in what is NOW called Iran, then called Persia. There were Jews in what is NOW known as Iraq which was then called Mesopotamia. There were Jews living in the Arabian Peninsula before Mohammed walked it.

Again, you know so very little about this, but you rant on.

The fact is that the Jews and Muslims lived together peacefully for most of the time since the 7th century. There were a few notable exceptions were the Jews were prosecuted by the Muslims. The Jews made a significant contribution to Islamic civilisation and had generally a good life under Muslim rulers. The current conflict is young, not old and started basically in 1947. Both Jews and Arabs were not happy with the 1947 border. The Arabs indeed attacked Israel, but Ben-Gurion also decided on war.

<<From historical stand point, there is no dispute that Palestine was stolen for it's original owners, but that ‘s the past and it can not be changed. >>


Where do you get your history from, friend? There were no "Palestinians" in 1948, and many considered themselves of Syrian origin. If you doubt that, check out the New York Times of May16, 1948. Secondly, every Arab nation was formed just as Israel was, with the exception that Israel has far broader international sanction, whereupon, France and England just carved out the rest to preserve their spheres of influence. There was no such place as Qatar, or the United Arab Emirates, nor were there recognized boundaries for Iraq, Iran, Syria and Lebanon until after the Ottomans were defeated in WW1.

<<Now we have two new young generations who are absolutely miserable, our young israelis live in a constant state of terror, and the young palestinians are humiliated daily, and have nothing to look forward to, except to terrorize the young Israelis. It is a tragedy for both people, as the jailer and the prisoner can no longer move on. >>

Not true, and again, this reflects a distortion of history. When Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza respectively, they did nothing for the welfare of the Arab refugees, nor did they propose a state for them. The goal was, as it is now, the destruction of Israel en toto. The '67 war put these areas in Israeli hands, and the Arabs refused to negotiate a territorial settlement. Until Sadat made peace, there was never a thought of compromise on the Arab side. In many quarters there is STILL no thought of it, including our freind Arafat, who has no desire for compromise, despite what he tells the Western press.


<<1- two state solution. Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders, and for the world to develop a compensation plan for the refugees.>>

The 1967 borders are not borders, but armistice lines. What makes you think they will work now, when they didn't work in 1967??


<< Israel can not afford to do this alone. Israel needs to withdraw now, what are they waiting for? >>

Because there is no functioning government authority in the territories. If Israel unilaterally withdraws, you'll see chaos on a scale you never thought possible.

<<If they withdraw today, and Palestinians attack the whole world will stand behind Israel's response. >>>

Great, a moral victory for Israel paid for in their blood while you sit behind your computer. Now THAT is self hate!!!

<<If we are still concerned with security, give palestine to the Jordanians, they have been good neighbors for the past 30 years.>>

The don't want it, and that would be the end of the Hashemites, who we need to keep the morons in line.

<<2- One state solution, just annex the whole god damn thing and everyone lives equal under the law. What is wrong with that concept, that is what we Americans believe in. The Arab Israelis have proven to be good Israeli citizens. >>

There is no place where Muslims live in peace with non Muslims when they are in a majority. If you know of such a place, please let us know.

have u ever been or seen places like Dubai or Yemen or Oman, there are tons of catholics living there in peace with muslims, and ur denial of Palestine as a country makes me sick, by doing this ur doing the Israeli Government a huge favor, why dont u do them more favors by starting to kill palestinians here in the U.S and try to kill me please

Originally posted by MP3Guy
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
[B]"2. Had the Palestinians accepted the 1947 treaty, they'd be much better off than they are now. "

<<this is false. the 47 borders were agreed to in the un resolution, the ben-gurion faction opted to start the war of independence instead, and the rest is history.>>

Your statement is patently false. It was the Arabs who attacked, and if you're interested you can even read the news articles and reports of that day on the web. Egyptian Spitfires raked Tel-Aviv, the Jordanians and the Syrians moved their tanks and armies in.

They lost, and truly, the rest is history.

let me systematically disect your ignorance:

Your statement is patently false. It was the Arabs who attacked, and if you're interested you can even read the news articles and reports of that day on the web.

I'm not sure what 'news articles' you're refering to. I don't know what to respond other then maybe read any book on the subject. I'd recommend starting with State, power and politics by prof. owen at harvard. That should be a valid enough source to give a bit of patent truth to my statement. If its not enough, i'll give you other works you can sift through too.

"Egyptian Spitfires raked Tel-Aviv, the Jordanians and the Syrians moved their tanks and armies in."

I have no idea how the egyptian spitfires would have been concerned at all in the 1948 war of independence. This statement is wrong. Also, King Hussein did not and would not send troops to tel-aviv. If you mean the egyptians, jordanians, and syrians were protecting their borders as usual with border patrol, then yes. You're wrong again, apologetically from my end.

I'm not sure to argue with you other then to tell you to read up on the issue. I'm coming from a fairly solid background on middle eastern history, and the literature is out there. PM me if you'd like suggestions of the current scholarship that is perceived as on the money.

edit: reading your statement again, it makes absolutely no sense. The israeli faction didn't want the 2 state system, so they waged the 1948 war. They defied the UN resolution dividing mandatory palestine into two states, and have been fighting ever since. in 1919, 1931-33, yes there were palestinian uprisings, but that was mostly due to the land/labour issue. As more israeli's were buying land from absentee landowners, more palestianians lost jobs to israeli immigrants; a key selling point on the English agreement to allow settlement was that israelis would offer the civilising mission to the palestinians, by offering them a higher quality of life then they would have otherwise. I'm done, i can go on till I crash the server with my length.

Regards,
Prof. Cumpressor, d.phil.

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
"Egyptian Spitfires raked Tel-Aviv, the Jordanians and the Syrians moved their tanks and armies in."

I have no idea how the egyptian spitfires would have been concerned at all in the 1948 war of independence. This statement is wrong. Also, King Hussein did not and would not send troops to tel-aviv. If you mean the egyptians, jordanians, and syrians were protecting their borders as usual with border patrol, then yes. You're wrong again, apologetically from my end.


From this BBC website summarizing the Israeli-Palestine conflict (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/) ; click on 1948:

The day after the state of Israel was declared five Arab armies from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq immediately invaded Israel but were repulsed, and the Israeli army crushed pockets of resistance. Armistices established Israel's borders on the frontier of most of the earlier British Mandate Palestine. The BBC site supports MP3Guy's statement that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attacked Israel, in much more than a border defense.

That web site provides a very interesting, independent, year-by-year summary of the conflict.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
From this BBC website summarizing the Israeli-Palestine conflict (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/) ; click on 1948:

The BBC site supports MP3Guy's statement that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attacked Israel, in much more than a border defense.

That web site provides a very interesting, independent, year-by-year summary of the conflict.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
From this BBC website summarizing the Israeli-Palestine conflict (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/) ; click on 1948:

The BBC site supports MP3Guy's statement that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attacked Israel, in much more than a border defense.

That web site provides a very interesting, independent, year-by-year summary of the conflict.

Regards,
Gordon

Let me start with the last part first:

The BBC site supports MP3Guy's statement that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attacked Israel, in much more than a border defense.

That web site provides a very interesting, independent, year-by-year summary of the conflict

The bbc correspondence is biased, due to the inherent british role in mandatory palestine, namely the Balfour declaration, which set in motion the wheels for an Israeli state in Palestine. Lets keep subjectivity out of this. The bbc cannot be considered any less biased than "palestine remembered.com;" or at least as academics, we must consider the two on equal terms, and use them for what their worth.


The BBC site supports MP3Guy's statement that Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attacked Israel, in much more than a border defense.

[b]1946-7: Ben-Gurion, a member of Yishuv and defensive portfolio head of the Jewish Agency Executive, had no plans of accepting the UN resolution as the final solution, as documentary evidence states. He selected Moshe Sharett (and Golda Meir when Sharett was arrested in Britian in 1947), later a dove relative to Ben-Guiron, to lead the political campaign for a Jewish state while he lead the military campaign, which would be a failure in his eyes if it was anything less then a clear cut victory.
King Abdullah, of TRANSJORDAN, came to be the only arab ally in the middle east, willing to accept the co-existance of Jews and Arabs in Israel/Palestine. He also had visions of a Greater Syria, which were definately an impetus to his agreeing to the Israeli talks.

Here is what happened in the war:
On 17 November, 1947, 12 days before the UN met to decide what would happen to Palestine, Meir met with Abdullah. Abdullah stated he wanted to capture the arab part of palestine, and Meir said essentially feel free but do not interfere with the Israeli operation.

Next, after 29 November, and the partition of Palestine, local arabs (palestinians) started insurgencies against the partition, as could only be expected. A month lasted with these insurgencies, and the Haganah chiefs (later going to be the IDF) decided on a policy called "aggresive defense," most definately a misnomer. They had something called Plan D, which basically was to take over all parts of Israel under the UN partition, and all the Arab parts as well. Plan D created the problem of Palestinian refugees that we see to day, and the reprecutions of its effects are still felt today. Historically, Israel has always followed the Plan D.
All right, so after the Israelis had effectively taken over the country, and creating 700,000 refugees that the arab league could not handle going into its member countries. During the first week of May, 1948, the US had stepped and wanted a 10 day cease fire to broker a deal. The Israelis refused. So, then, in lieu of accepting the peace offered by America, Ben-Gurion and the provisional cabinet supported immediate independence on May 14, 1948, and Israel was born.

So far, we have no attack by the Arab league, nor any egyptian spitfires.

Now, we have a state of Israel.
On May 15, 1948, the regular armies of Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Iraq invaded Palestine.

Now, we can see that the invasion of Transjordan was merely to satisfy Abdullahs claim, agreed to by Meir, of capturing the Arab part of Palestine. We can also see the egyptian spitfires and other arab countries as presenting troops to a "coaltion" of the Arab league, the same way that they would give troops to the UN if another country tried to invade, say, Morocco. But since we spin things, and history is really from the victors perspective, we see the birth of Israel as against these Armies of these Mighty countries, whereas in reality, it was the cause of Israel CAPTURING AND REMOVING THE PALESTINIANS FROM THEIR LAND, IN COMPLETE DISREGARD OF THE UN RESOLUTION. Ben-Gurion was as much an agreesor as any Arab general (see his may 24 proposal to the cabinet of his "grand plan for victory".)

all right, so in conclusion, israel went against the UN resolution, and was met by local insurgency. To say that egypt, syria, and transjordan (w/ the other countries of the arab league) attacked israel is a serious misinterpretation of the events. They 'attacked' Palestinian areas that had been granted to them under internation law, and helped DEFEND the Palestinians against the oh so aggresive IDF.

lecture over
Regards,
Prof. Cump.

I know typo errors in the last post. Sorry.

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
Prof Cunt...
Well in this case ethnic cleansing of the Arabs wouldn't be a bad thing.
I'm still waiting to hear what the world would lose out if the Middle East (minus Israel) didn't exist.

As I said in my other reply to you, what would the world lose out on if any race/region was destroyed. Your point of view is narrow to the point of vehement racism, and frankly I think you should be banned from the forum for these comments. What if someone on here was to say that ethnic cleansing of another group "wouldn't be a bad thing"?

goldenhue22, a lot of that anger is uncalled for...you are beginning to sound like a racist...actually by your very own statements, you ARE a racist...the entire arab population doesn't belong into the Islamic fundamentalist...i'd like to believe that most arabs are just misguided by propoganda their governments stuff down their throats...they are forced to believe this way, hence they believe this way...your hate for them has led you to become very biased yourself and extremely one-sided in your own arguement...

your last post has no substance whatsoever, it's just one huge flame against cumpressor4u2nv who is trying to have an intelligent debate...if you wish to debate with him, do so in a mature manner...calling names is childish

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
Prof Cunt...errrrr, I mean Cump, the BBC is biased? The same credibility as palestine remembered.com? By that one statement, you are a fool. And for you to sit there and say that you are not biased one side or the other you are lying out of your ass, errr, I mean the keyboard. It is completely useless talking to you and your fellow Arab brothers. I think all of use really know what is going on. If you want to know why the rest of the world hates Arabs and Muslim, you need to take a look at yourselves and want you are doing to other people. The Israeli army, man for man, is the strongest army in the world. If Israel didn't have a conscience they would be able to take over the entire middle east very easily. But Israel, still to this day, doesn't attack first. If they did, they would destroy the middle east and not have to worry about terrorist threats again.

You say I talk like a Nazi huh. Well in this case ethnic cleansing of the Arabs wouldn't be a bad thing. The difference is, Hitler, killed people based on their religion and their looks. I say those things based upon the endless murders and attacks on innocent people...NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE ARAB OR MUSLIM. I have no problem with Arab people in general, just the ones that breed, or are bred, to hate. If your culture preached peace and prosperity over hate and violence maybe things would be better. But they don't and they aren't.

I'm still waiting to hear what the world would lose out if the Middle East (minus Israel) didn't exist. I have a feeling I'll be waiting for awhile. I can't wait for you to tell me that Israel and there countless attacks and starvation of the Palestinian people make it had for them study and do good. Right? How come people in America and people in Israel aren't bred to hate Arabs. The hate is acquired, after they realize what is happening to their people. I saw a show on CNN (I know they are a shitty, biased news source) where this reporter went into the Iraq schools and there was a play put on by a bunch of 5 and 6 years olds. People were dressed as Saddam and their leadership and spoke hatred towards the Israelis and Americans. Isn't there a problem with that?

I'm glad I believe in hell.

Originally posted by mental pimp
i wont be making meaningless or dumb comments

Originally posted by mental pimp
please guys lets not start to insult each other, thank you

Originally posted by mental pimp
ur denial of Palestine as a country makes me sick, by doing this ur doing the Israeli Government a huge favor, why dont u do them more favors by starting to kill palestinians here in the U.S and try to kill me please

So much for no insults, and so much for no meaningless or dumb comments!

Regards,
Gordon

All right, I think it's time to lighten up this thread (http://zmax.org/supergreg/sgdotcom/)

And another (http://myboringlife.com/yew_kicked/my_dawg.html)

it's Thanksgiving for Chrissakes! have fun, leave the flames for tomorrow...

i insulted him?^ and i told him straight up , if he hates palestinians and likes the idea of clensin us , then come and kill me

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
Prof Cunt...errrrr, I mean Cump, the BBC is biased? The same credibility as palestine remembered.com? By that one statement, you are a fool. And for you to sit there and say that you are not biased one side or the other you are lying out of your ass, errr, I mean the keyboard. It is completely useless talking to you and your fellow Arab brothers. I think all of use really know what is going on. If you want to know why the rest of the world hates Arabs and Muslim, you need to take a look at yourselves and want you are doing to other people. The Israeli army, man for man, is the strongest army in the world. If Israel didn't have a conscience they would be able to take over the entire middle east very easily. But Israel, still to this day, doesn't attack first. If they did, they would destroy the middle east and not have to worry about terrorist threats again.

You say I talk like a Nazi huh. Well in this case ethnic cleansing of the Arabs wouldn't be a bad thing. The difference is, Hitler, killed people based on their religion and their looks. I say those things based upon the endless murders and attacks on innocent people...NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE ARAB OR MUSLIM. I have no problem with Arab people in general, just the ones that breed, or are bred, to hate. If your culture preached peace and prosperity over hate and violence maybe things would be better. But they don't and they aren't.

I'm still waiting to hear what the world would lose out if the Middle East (minus Israel) didn't exist. I have a feeling I'll be waiting for awhile. I can't wait for you to tell me that Israel and there countless attacks and starvation of the Palestinian people make it had for them study and do good. Right? How come people in America and people in Israel aren't bred to hate Arabs. The hate is acquired, after they realize what is happening to their people. I saw a show on CNN (I know they are a shitty, biased news source) where this reporter went into the Iraq schools and there was a play put on by a bunch of 5 and 6 years olds. People were dressed as Saddam and their leadership and spoke hatred towards the Israelis and Americans. Isn't there a problem with that?

Quotes by people like the above only serve to hurt any groups that person chooses to associate themselves with. I especially like how Goldenhue says "ethnic cleansing of the Arabs wouldn't be a bad thing." and later says "I have no problem with Arab people in general". Dude, which is it? You seem confused.

Originally posted by BRx8
All right, I think it's time to lighten up this thread (http://zmax.org/supergreg/sgdotcom/)

And another (http://myboringlife.com/yew_kicked/my_dawg.html)

it's Thanksgiving for Chrissakes! have fun, leave the flames for tomorrow...

yea, im muslim so i dont celebrate it , and if u think those are funny let me bust out this http://www.public.iastate.edu/~tschrage/demo3.wmv

ROLF

Originally posted by mental pimp
yea, im muslim so i dont celebrate it , and if u think those are funny let me bust out this http://www.public.iastate.edu/~tschrage/demo3.wmv

ROLF

you don't have to be muslim to celebrate Thanksgiving, it's not a religious holiday...plus you live in Miami, FL

Several people have said that Palestinians/Arabs are terrorists and this is the root of all of the problems. Well the former Prime Minister of Israel, the late Menachem Begin, was the leader of the Jewish underground organization Irgun Zvai Leumi that attacked British soldiers and civilians in Palestine in the mid 1940's. These guys dressed as cooks in the King David Hotel and placed explosives that killed many innocents. Was this an act of terrorism? Well all I can say is Menachem Begin was quoted as describing himself as "the first terrorist". Of course many consider him a freedom fighter.

Also, how can we describe the men fighting the Brits during the American revolution? They too fought unconventionally and attacked civilians. Today we call them patriots. Then the Brits called them traitors and terrorists.

The moral of my story is war is serious and both sides fight dirty. If the little guy wins he is a freedom fighter and a good guy. If the little guy loses he was terrorist .

Originally posted by babylou
Several people have said that Palestinians/Arabs are terrorists and this is the root of all of the problems.

terrorism isn't confined to one race, ANYONE can become a terrorist...but can you safely say that 99% of all terrorist acts do NOT come from middle eastern nations? i don't think you can...

Originally posted by BRx8
terrorism isn't confined to one race, ANYONE can become a terrorist...but can you safely say that 99% of all terrorist acts do NOT come from middle eastern nations? i don't think you can...

You didn't get my point at all. I am saying what one's point of view is determines who a terrorist is. Today there are Iraqi's that see the Iraqi insurgents that are launching rockets off of donkey carts as terrorists. There are other Iraqi's who see the American military as terrorists.

Now if you wanna play stats and count all violent acts that are not government sponsored and are directed from one group to another I am willing. I wanna clarify a few things first. 99% from mid east nations? Hmmm, do we count acts by the KKK or white supremicists in general? How about in Colombia or Peru? S.E. Asia like Indonesia. The Phillipines. When blacks in Los Angeles rioted (Rodney King) and specifically targeted Korean owned businesses? Or the fans every time a freaking SEC football team plays one of its rivals?

So yes, I can safely say the number is much too high but it ain't 99%.

Originally posted by babylou
You didn't get my point at all. I am saying what one's point of view is determines who a terrorist is. Today there are Iraqi's that see the Iraqi insurgents that are launching rockets off of donkey carts as terrorists. There are other Iraqi's who see the American military as terrorists.

Now if you wanna play stats and count all violent acts that are not government sponsored and are directed from one group to another I am willing. I wanna clarify a few things first. 99% from mid east nations? Hmmm, do we count acts by the KKK or white supremicists in general? How about in Colombia or Peru? S.E. Asia like Indonesia. The Phillipines. When blacks in Los Angeles rioted (Rodney King) and specifically targeted Korean owned businesses? Or the fans every time a freaking SEC football team plays one of its rivals?

So yes, I can safely say the number is much too high but it ain't 99%.

and what about the Philippines? the Abu Sayaf, an Islamic Fundamentalist "organization" are responsible for terrorist acts there...they kidnap the wealthy and hold them for ransom...so ok, let me rephrase, not ALL terrorist acts originate from the Middle East, but "MOST" are caused by Arabs...

and i can see how you can depict your examples as being "terrorist acts" if you stay by the strict defintion of terrorism as attacking innocent people...shit, if you go by that definition, you might as well call the white tiger that attacked Roy a terrorist...but most of these do not tend to sway political objectives a certain way, which is a key definition of what terrorism is...

again i see your point and it all depends on how you hold the definition of the term "terrorist" to be...still, an alarming number of these acts do in fact involve people from the Middle East...it just seems far too shady to me at how morally absent some of them clearly are

just last night an entire group of Middle Easterners decided to push right in front of me in a line after having waited an hour myself...being the stereotypical passive Asian that i am, i said nothing of it...i wouldn't have thought anything of it if it hadn't been for a few hours earlier when i visited an Arab owned liquor store only to be ripped off a few dollars for liquor...and it wasn't the first time either...i've learned from dealing with these "business owners" that you HAVE to count your change, ALWAYS...

another thing that bothers me is the fact that most Arabs don't assimilate or even try to fit in with American life...AT ALL...they live here, yet they don't appreciate the life our government gives them...how many Arab teachers or social workers do you know? NONE for me...when riding on the train i see them all congregating with themselves, speaking their own language, never giving way and never holding the door for other people...it seems they just don't really care to be polite to other people...and yes, i work downtown in the heart of Chicago where i see just about every race, everyday...

so yea, as much as i'd really hate to say it, i REALLY can't think of anything good thats has come from that region...i can't think of anything technological, social, scientific, culinary, or cultural thing that i can relate to...i can't think of a famous actor, movie, singer, dancer, video game company, beer maker, clothing manufacturer, food (i think Indian food is the one and only food i can't eat...the smell and taste of curry seriously makes me want to vomit), artist, etc. nothing...

and please dont' take these remarks as if i'm racist...everyone is racist in their own way...these are just everyday thoughts put into words which would never see the light of day if i were in public...

Please keep this conversation civilized. Please use tact when replying and if someone says something you don't agree with, please reply with a logical argument - Not just calling names :) I will be watching this thread closely...

That said, if you believe in the Bible... didn't this all come about from Cain and Abel? The Jews and Arabs are their descendants and this is where the resentment came from? I know there's some Bible buffs out there...

This topic will stay open as long as there are NO more racist comments. It's toeing the line now. If you hate a specific group of people because of your beliefs, that's all fine and dandy. But furthering ignorant sterotypes and making offensive statements about them is not appropriate. Discuss politely, or not at all.

BrX8 u said how many arab teachers do i know?? i got a spanish teacher and hes dad is from lebabanon and her mom is from spain, there one, and my geometry teacher is 100% arab, hes from jordan, and he is extremely religious, he goes to church all the time and he lives a good life.

Ok so Palestinians strap bombs everyday and kill people, so wat the israelis do to get this?

huh?

Some of the above comments are obviously racist and should not be condoned by the moderators. Just go on holiday to Morocco, Tunisia or Egypt and experience the hospitality of the Arabs.

Jews and Palestinians have both historical claims on the same land. Both claim that they were there first. Both people have very strong religious links with that land. If you walk trough Israel, Jerusalem or the territories you will find remnants of both people everywhere.

So is it a Jewish land? Yes it is. Is it a Palestinian land? Yes it is. The only solution is to live together in peace. In one land, with Jerusalem as capital for both. As long as that is not obtained people will be killed.

yea^ also heres the movie about the crisis, and its not arab made either so watch the trailers please http://www.occupation101.com/film.html

Thread is being reopened due to numerous requests. If I see *anything* else that is even remotely offensive, the poster will be officially warned, and possibly banned. You have been warned.

thank you , elara

you don't have to be muslim to celebrate Thanksgiving, it's not a religious holiday...plus you live in Miami, FL You are right. Thanksgiving is an AMERICAN holiday and he only lives here reaping all of America's benefits but doesn't celebrate the holiday of the country he lives in (probably illegally but who knows). Terrible!

This thread is a joke and so are the moderators representing it. I can't say that the world would be better off without Arabs but MENTAL PIMP can say that he agrees with, likes and condones suicide bombings. That is basically saying that he likes to see innocent Israelis dead. Double standard? I think so.

You wanna talk about hurting others' feeling Elara, well Pimp hurts my feelings with just about every comment he makes like his last comment: Ok so Palestinians strap bombs everyday and kill people, so wat the israelis do to get this? I don't know what makes me more sick...that comment or the fact that it goes without notice by you and other moderators.

This entire thread was made to produce a flame war. An exact replica of another thread already closed 2-3 months ago. What did you expect myself and PIMP to have changed our minds? One of us are able to look at right and wrong and one is brainwashed by race and religion. Nothing is going to change. I suggested to close this thread before I said anything and it was ignored. Now you erase all of my posts, leave PIMP'S, and RE-OPEN the thread after you close it?

There is no reason for a thread like this on any non-political forum. I don't care- lounge or no lounge. It just doesn't belong.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/middle_east/2001/israel_and_the_palestinians/profiles/1249937.stm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/11/isrl-pa1101.htm

http://www.adl.org/ict/default.asp

I urge you to play around with the last site. A list of terrorist organizations with every attack dated and chronicled. Great site, too bad it even exists

PIMP has a history of starting a flame war and saying very serious things against Israeli's and Americans. Proof? Go to this thread:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?threadid=14785&highlight=Israel+and+Palestine

i saw my errors and i apoligized for them, why are u trying???^

yea i see u love to talk about how suicide bombers kill innocent people but u havent said one word about wat the Israeli army does to palestinian civilians, atleast i also dislike the deaths of israelis

I just found out about this thread today. I didn't even know it existed. I'm pissed that I wasn't able to contribute. I'm surprised by the sentiment of Wakeech. Poor soul, you are so intelligent about cars....

This link provided by, tribal azn2, is VERY POWERFUL. And how true it is.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/s...es/slide_1.html

yea i see u love to talk about how suicide bombers kill innocent people but u havent said one word about wat the Israeli army does to palestinian civilians, atleast i also dislike the deaths of israelis That's a bunch of bull, you are a huge hippocrit. Everything you say contradicts itself. I'm sure you cry yourself to sleep when you hear of a 3 year old Israeli being blown up by a bomber.

You don't seem to get it. palestinians have curfews because they cannot be trusted. palestinians have security checks because they cannot be trusted. Why can they not be trusted? Because you keep dressing like civilians (even like JEWISH civilians) hop on a bus and blow yourself up. The Isaeli population live in constant terror. Even when the Israeli army doesn't respond to an attack. The terrorists just don't stop. They keep going and going and going, hoping to eventually drive Israeli's out. This is fact. Oh but Allah says this, and this happened back in 3000 bc, and look at the way palestinians live, bla bla bla. Meaningless. palestinians are doing it to themselves. Stop and take a look inwards once and while. In every post you have ever made on this topic (since this is the 3rd one) you have shown nothing intelligent. You spout ignorance and then have fun having a flame war with everyone else. You get off on this. I get off on Kelly Ripa, Jessica Alba and porn and you get off on this. Perhaps its because you can't have sex until you're married. You truly poor, poor soul. IMO, you should be banned from this site, because you constantly make up these threads and provide nothing insiteful. Your rallying cry is GO PALESTINE! Your sources are terrible. For some reason you found a partner in this debate, Wakeech, and all you said was..."wakeech them about the palestinian history". And, "if you are pro-palestinian PM me to discuss further". You are pushing your ideas, I mean statements, on other people hoping to change 1 persons feelings. You are like those people that go door-to-door pushing their beliefs on other people (I'm have a brain-block right now, someone help me out on the religion). You are not discussing since you bring nothing to the table except excerpts from palestinian chronicle.com. If you have these feeling, while totally unacceptable living in this country and being provided things from a government the middle east despises, keep them to yourself and talk about them in your religous circles. Iraq doesn't want a westernized government....WHY NOT? It the best government , without a doubt. What they really don't want is organization, structure, punishment for wrong-doings, they won't even put down their guns when told to. It is completely useless, just like talking to PIMP and other(s) with the same sentiment on this forum.

Winston Churchill once said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others". What a true statement.

"yea i see u love to talk about how suicide bombers kill innocent people but u havent said one word about wat the Israeli army does to palestinian civilians, atleast i also dislike the deaths of israelis"

Well said mental pimp. You're getting the hang of arguing :)


Originally posted by Goldenhue22
I just found out about this thread today. I didn't even know it existed. I'm pissed that I wasn't able to contribute. I'm surprised by the sentiment of Wakeech. Poor soul, you are so intelligent about cars....

This link provided by, tribal azn2, is VERY POWERFUL. And how true it is.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/media/s...es/slide_1.html

I don't know if this is supposed to be sarcasm? Well since I vowed not to lower myself any more, and to me a response to you would be below ground, let me just offer some grammar tips.
"This link provided by, tribal azn2, is VERY..." should be either without commas at all, or "This link, provided by tribal azn2, is VERY..." 7th grade is hard. We all understand your plight.

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
you are a huge hippocrit.


I was going to stay out of this, but you've spelled HYPOCRITE like this a bunch of times. Hippocrit is too similar to Hippocrates, and you don't want to insult him.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
If some Palestinians didn't have a tendency to cross the checkpoints with suicide bombs strapped under their jackets, I suspect the checkpoints would be a lot less harassing.

[B]

Mahatma Ghandi already proved you (and the Palestinians) wrong, 55 years ago. India won their freedom from Great Britain without war, without terrorist activities. The difference is that India didn't want to kill all the British, they just wanted them to leave. A peaceful revolution is entirely possible. As has already been mentioned - the Palestinians have been offered peace and land on several occasions, and continue to reject it, to their great detriment.

Regards,
Gordon
One thing to point out about this.... Ghandi had widespread and HUGE media support and coverage. It does of course help to bolster your cause when it's plastered on the radio and newspapers constantly.

And an addendum... my family is Muslim -- I'm non practicing because I gave up on the whole institution of religion back in high school.

However, I agree with the one-state solution. I know both sides don't want it, and that's all the more reason they should have it. When you are forced to work, live, eat, sleep, and grow up side by side your historical 'enemies' you will quickly realize how alike you are and what the hell you have been fighting about was just stupid.

It will take time of course... the same situtation existed in the United States with colored people and white people, and the whole segregation. We passed some laws, blacks and whites were forced to live together, and now racism as a whole is not accepted by the majority of people. That's not to say that people aren't racist, they always will be. However nobody will run to a mall advertising it. Same thing will happen with Palestinians and Israelis. At some point all the people that don't want to converge populations will die (sooner rather than later, I hope), the youthful generation will defend their Palestinian or Israeli friends and soon, instead of labeling them with an ethnicity... they will just be 'friends' instead of 'my Palestinian/Israeli friend'.

Just my $.02. Force them to accept each other or it will never happen. The Israelis and Palestinians that don't want to accept a one-state solution will be vocal and ostracized by the majority on both sides that just want peace, tranquility and prosperity between the two peoples. Kick the asses of the protestors and get back to livin, workin, and raising families.

And when it all comes down to it... I'll sit in the USA saying how right I was from the getgo :P

The solution of the whole Israel/Palestine issue is not in violence. There has been violence enough already. I see here in this forum that some people believe the Arabs are violent of nature, uneducated and of no contribution to the human society. This was the same attitude of Apartheid South Africa against the black majority. Some people even deny the existence of Palestinians (!). The solution is not in violence, not in superiority not in ethnic cleansing. The solution has to do with restoration OF rights. As long as the rights of the Palestinians are not restored there can be no peace. Justice before peace. We have learned that here in SA. Give every Jew and every Palestinian the same rights and we will live in peace and harmony together, like here in SA.

It will take time of course... the same situtation existed in the United States with colored people and white people, and the whole segregation. We passed some laws, blacks and whites were forced to live together, and now racism as a whole is not accepted by the majority of people What is so hard about realizing that the Palestinians don't want any part of organizaed structure. If they are forced to live together who is emphasizing that force? Who is going to produce the punishment for continued crimes against humanity against Israeli's? Arafat, under extreme pressure from the UN to put a stop on bombers arrested abot 20 of them. A terrorist organization, during the middle of the night, blew the wall off the so-called prison and helped those men escape.

As long as the rights of the Palestinians are not restored there can be no peace They have to EARN their rights. THey do nothing but preach hate and murder people. Try to be a nice guy and see what that gets them. Didn't your mommy ever teach you that good things happen to good people?

The problem is the terrorist bombings. If they stop perhaps things will settle down. But the bombings won't stop because they want Israel eradicted. Talking in circles to a bunch of ignorant people is frustrating. No shit, the solution is to get both of them to live together peacefully. Boy you all are friggin intelligent. But what is happening to stop that from occuring? I hope every single one of you know that answer and if you don't or don't want to admit it, I feel so sorry for you. And for someone that is a law abiding citizen in a free country, that is dispicable you can't admit it to yourself, for religious gains. It isn't about religion or race or creed...it is about right and wrong. Period.

how are they going to earn their rights if they dont even have a chance to, everyday an israeli tank is either destroying more houses or israeli armys are killing more palestinians, if the israelis would stop this, maybe Hamas would get the idea that its over no more violence.

Look if a u would let a family of 4 go live in ur house, you give them 2 rooms, a family room, and they can use a kitchen. But they decide that they want more, so they kill ur children and take ur children's room, wat would u do? strike back on the guy or his children, and Hamas should target more israeli leaders than the citizens, but the real terrorists is the guy that killed the children to get another room,

same thing here, in the 1900s jews were immagrating into palestine and in 1947 the U.N decided to put more jews into palestine and this would mean to kick out thousands of palestinians to have room for the jews. Both the jews and the palestinians f**ked up this deal, and now Israel is taking the land by force (killing more palestinians and destroying more palestinian places), how do they not expect the palestinians to strike back after years of suffering, like some in this thread said and i forgot who but thank god there is a hell for some people in this world.

I feel, after reading the above reply, that this thread be closed.
Not because it isn't a good debate or a worthy subject.
Not because some good info hasn't been presented.
Certainly not because the subject isn't worthy of discussion here.
Rather, it is because the primary combatant in this debate is only15 and, since he is a child, hasn't yet experienced enough understanding of the issue to have an independant opinion or a true grasp of the art of persuasion.
He should be forgiven for spouting such opinions because he couldn't possibly know any better.
Lets leave him alone.

hey it might be stupid but im trying to give this guy an idea of the situacion

Originally posted by mental pimp
hey it might be stupid but im trying to give this guy an idea of the situacion

I'm sure your intention is heartfelt, but your grasp of the situation is severely limited by your point of view - both in age and orientation.

Originally posted by BRx8
just last night an entire group of Middle Easterners decided to push right in front of me in a line after having waited an hour myself
So were they Arabs? By your statements it is obvious that you are ignorant to the fact that many Middle Eastern people are not Arab. There are Jews, Persians, Chaldeans, and Kurds amongst others.

.Originally posted by BRx8
..being the stereotypical passive Asian that i am, i said nothing of it...i wouldn't have thought anything of it if it hadn't been for a few hours earlier when i visited an Arab owned liquor store only to be ripped off a few dollars for liquor...and it wasn't the first time either...i've learned from dealing with these "business owners" That you HAVE to count your change, ALWAYS...
That's funny because many jackasses down here in Houston love to say the same thing about all of the Asian business owners.

Originally posted by BRx8 another thing that bothers me is the fact that most Arabs don't assimilate or even try to fit in with American life...AT ALL...they live here, yet they don't appreciate the life our government gives them...how many Arab teachers or social workers do you know? NONE for me...when riding on the train i see them all congregating with themselves, speaking their own language, never giving way and never holding the door for other people...it seems they just don't really care to be polite to other people...and yes, i work downtown in the heart of Chicago where i see just about every race, everyday...[/B]
Your earlier statements have proven you couldn't spot an Arab if he/she were shoving a geography book down your throat.

Originally posted by BRx8
so yea, as much as i'd really hate to say it, i REALLY can't think of anything good thats has come from that region...i can't think of anything technological, social, scientific, culinary, or cultural thing that i can relate to...i can't think of a famous actor, movie, singer, dancer, video game company, beer maker, clothing manufacturer, food (i think Indian food is the one and only food i can't eat...the smell and taste of curry seriously makes me want to vomit), artist, etc. nothing......
Most all modern mathematics, Shakira, Bobby Rahal, Tony Kanaan, Egyptians invented beer, heart bypass surgery (Michael Debakey), and how long do we do this? I could also just as easily name successes/contributions by Jews, Chinese, Russians. Of that is because I am not an idiot like you.

Originally posted by BRx8
and please dont' take these remarks as if i'm racist...everyone is racist in their own way...these are just everyday thoughts put into words which would never see the light of day if i were in public...
That is kinda like me saying to you I didn't mean to hurt you after I hit you on your pointy little head.

They have to EARN their rights. THey do nothing but preach hate and murder people. Try to be a nice guy and see what that gets them. Didn't your mommy ever teach you that good things happen to good people?

This is fundamentally wrong. I speak about human rights of freedom, healthcare, education, freedom of religion, and freedom of living…. These are basic human rights and should never be earned. They are a given to every human being on this planet. After more than fifty years of denial of basic human rights don't be surprised that they fight back.

Since Israel can't or won't allow a real two-state solution, there is an alternative -- the creation of a single, democratic state that will allow all Israelis and Palestinians to peacefully cohabit the entirety of their common homeland as equals. To dismiss this possibility, and to refuse even to explore it as a serious way out of the deepening crisis is immoral.

Originally posted by Maniac
Rather, it is because the primary combatant in this debate is only15 and, since he is a child, hasn't yet experienced enough understanding of the issue to have an independant opinion or a true grasp of the art of persuasion.
He should be forgiven for spouting such opinions because he couldn't possibly know any better.
Lets leave him alone.

You're kidding right? Please, tell me you're kidding.

"Originally posted by BRx8 another thing that bothers me is the fact that most Arabs don't assimilate or even try to fit in with American life...AT ALL...they live here, yet they don't appreciate the life our government gives them...how many Arab teachers or social workers do you know? NONE for me...when riding on the train i see them all congregating with themselves, speaking their own language, never giving way and never holding the door for other people...it seems they just don't really care to be polite to other people...and yes, i work downtown in the heart of Chicago where i see just about every race, everyday...[/B]"

Arabs don't assimilate? Good point. I need to research this the next time I go to "Arab Town" and ask the Arab shop owners who only speak Arabic and do not try in the slighest to learn english what they think about the bastard americans. Also, I heard you can get really cheap bombs at any of the Arab towns. And watch out for SARS in all arab communities ;)

In response to something else you said, what have the chinese produced other than more chinese people and a wall? (To the moron that decides to quote this and call me an idiot, please realise the sarcasm)

Ignorance is like...a virus it seems. One person is infected and then through some weird vector, everyone comes out of the wood work, does a dance, and spews crap.

Originally posted by sheylen
Since Israel can't or won't allow a real two-state solution, there is an alternative -- the creation of a single, democratic state that will allow all Israelis and Palestinians to peacefully cohabit the entirety of their common homeland as equals. To dismiss this possibility, and to refuse even to explore it as a serious way out of the deepening crisis is immoral.

not bad but, ive seen several articles about how Israel doesnt allow Israelis and Palestinians to get married, ive also seen a article about a young israeli girl who was practicing islam and got suspended out of school, thats sad.

I was watching a show in MTV about the problem and it showed that Palestinians and Israelis can get along fine.

Originally posted by Hercules
And an addendum... my family is Muslim -- I'm non practicing because I gave up on the whole institution of religion back in high school.

However, I agree with the one-state solution. I know both sides don't want it, and that's all the more reason they should have it. When you are forced to work, live, eat, sleep, and grow up side by side your historical 'enemies' you will quickly realize how alike you are and what the hell you have been fighting about was just stupid.

It will take time of course... the same situtation existed in the United States with colored people and white people, and the whole segregation. We passed some laws, blacks and whites were forced to live together, and now racism as a whole is not accepted by the majority of people. That's not to say that people aren't racist, they always will be. However nobody will run to a mall advertising it. Same thing will happen with Palestinians and Israelis. At some point all the people that don't want to converge populations will die (sooner rather than later, I hope), the youthful generation will defend their Palestinian or Israeli friends and soon, instead of labeling them with an ethnicity... they will just be 'friends' instead of 'my Palestinian/Israeli friend'.

Just my $.02. Force them to accept each other or it will never happen. The Israelis and Palestinians that don't want to accept a one-state solution will be vocal and ostracized by the majority on both sides that just want peace, tranquility and prosperity between the two peoples. Kick the asses of the protestors and get back to livin, workin, and raising families.

And when it all comes down to it... I'll sit in the USA saying how right I was from the getgo :P

This defeats the whole purpose of creating a JEWISH state. There are numerous Christian and Muslim states (official and unofficial - but effectively are).

The Jews have been persecuted for three thousand years! Israel in ancient times was attacked many times, there was the Inquisition, the Holocaust and the Russian brutality to name a few. The creation of Israel was an attempt to give them a fighting chance for survival. To allow one state (and the "right of return") will effectively make Jews a minority and the end of Israel and the beginning of their persecution all over again.

Originally posted by mental pimp
how are they going to earn their rights if they dont even have a chance to, everyday an israeli tank is either destroying more houses or israeli armys are killing more palestinians, if the israelis would stop this, maybe Hamas would get the idea that its over no more violence.

Look if a u would let a family of 4 go live in ur house, you give them 2 rooms, a family room, and they can use a kitchen. But they decide that they want more, so they kill ur children and take ur children's room, wat would u do? strike back on the guy or his children, and Hamas should target more israeli leaders than the citizens, but the real terrorists is the guy that killed the children to get another room,

same thing here, in the 1900s jews were immagrating into palestine and in 1947 the U.N decided to put more jews into palestine and this would mean to kick out thousands of palestinians to have room for the jews. Both the jews and the palestinians f**ked up this deal, and now Israel is taking the land by force (killing more palestinians and destroying more palestinian places), how do they not expect the palestinians to strike back after years of suffering, like some in this thread said and i forgot who but thank god there is a hell for some people in this world.

My friend, in the 1900's Palestine was owned by the Turks and then the British.

how are they going to earn their rights if they dont even have a chance to They have a chance everyday. Too bad they keep bombing people. Why don't you get it? Arabs are attacking innocent people. Until bombings stop there will be no rights for arabs, and hence they do not deserve to walk down the streets at midnight or walk into an Israeli pizza parlor and ask for a slice of cheese. Stop the bombings and things WILL be fine. But your people are being used like pawns in a bigger game to eliminate the Israeli's. The rest of your statement is blatently untrue so I will ignore it.

I speak about human rights of freedom, healthcare, education, freedom of religion, and freedom of living…. These are basic human rights and should never be earned. They are a given to every human being on this planet. After more than fifty years of denial of basic human rights don't be surprised that they fight back. Unbelievable. Read and learn before crying. The first one is straight out of Humanity News. The second one is about bombings in general

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/11/isrl-pa1101.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/isrl-pa/ISRAELPA1002-03.htm#P292_34988

Since Israel can't or won't allow a real two-state solution, there is an alternative -- the creation of a single, democratic state that will allow all Israelis and Palestinians to peacefully cohabit the entirety of their common homeland as equals. To dismiss this possibility, and to refuse even to explore it as a serious way out of the deepening crisis is immoral. I'm not sure who knows less you or MP. SHEYLEN, I want to know exactly where you got your info when you say that Israel won't work out a 2-state solution!! I demand you respond to that!! Because you couldn't be more wrong. Even MP and the other know it alls know that Arafat turned down a 2-state ceasefire in 2000. DO not respond with accusations like the above anymore. It proves your opinion is not valid and incoherent.

...and do not try in the slighest to learn english what they think about the bastard americans Again, then GET OUT OF THE COUNTRY!

Ignorance is like...a virus it seems. One person is infected and then through some weird vector, everyone comes out of the wood work, does a dance, and spews crap. That is the first legit thing you've said. Why do you think tyrants are able to lead. Because they brainwash and infect those into believing they are doing good to their people, meanwhile they are taking advantage of them on evey level. Too bad you are one of those infected.

Don't forget that there are many Palestinians living inside of Israel and have elected members in goverment! Now, some may say there is some discrimination in the society at large (it seems like this takes place in every country), but can you imagine if there were a similar popluation of Jews within a Palestinian state?

theres palestinians living in israel!?

yes there are. If you didn't know that you really havn't got a clue. Stop wasting our time.

but can you imagine if there were a similar popluation of Jews within a Palestinian state? No I really can't. They would be murdered before anyone knew they were there. Again, how sad...

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
yes there are. If you didn't know that you really havn't got a clue. Stop wasting our time.

their probalby dead now, if Israel has killed many Palestinian leaders then they probalby are gonna kill the palestinians in Israel

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
No I really can't. They would be murdered before anyone knew they were there. Again, how sad...

are u sure about that? again like i said before i saw this show on MTV and they were talking about the situacion in Palestine and i saw that Palestinians and Israelis can get along, Goldenhue every time i read ur posts all i see is a terrorists trying to back up the killings of the palestinians

i bet goldenhue that if u saw a dying palestinian baby, u would not help out, u would probalby kill it , like those Israeli militants

Mental Pimp:

Stop arguing man. It's definately not worth your time, effort or thought. The zionists on this board are f*cking worse than anything Herzl himself would have imagined. Let me say this to you all:
The original Zionists wanted a two state system, at worst, with co-habitance in PALESTINE. Even the most militant sect, founded by Jabotinsky, wanted an Iron Wall, to live WITH the arabs in safety. Learn your bloody history and then come back with your propaganda; I find it hilarious that you take your opinions seriously, and even more so that you think anyone that has a clue would take them seriously.

That said, Pimp, go read any book on the subject if you want to learn the history. You're not going to pick up anything, not even debating skills, by continuing this thread. PM me and I'll give you some books. It would be a million times better way to spend your time.

And btw, an absentee Hashelmite landlord doesn't really equate to turkey "owning" palestine. God the ignornace goes on forever.

Goldenhue, u and the rest of people like u deserv to go to hell, Israel keeps on killing the children of palestine and still people support it, maybe i just shut up and stop talking to trash,

cumpressor4u2nv, i am extremely thankful for dropping some knowledge and i will send u pms.

ELaRA time to close this thead, :)

Originally posted by cumpressor4u2nv
Mental Pimp:

Stop arguing man. It's definately not worth your time, effort or thought. The zionists on this board are f*cking worse than anything Herzl himself would have imagined. Let me say this to you all:
The original Zionists wanted a two state system, at worst, with co-habitance in PALESTINE. Even the most militant sect, founded by Jabotinsky, wanted an Iron Wall, to live WITH the arabs in safety. Learn your bloody history and then come back with your propaganda; I find it hilarious that you take your opinions seriously, and even more so that you think anyone that has a clue would take them seriously.

That said, Pimp, go read any book on the subject if you want to learn the history. You're not going to pick up anything, not even debating skills, by continuing this thread. PM me and I'll give you some books. It would be a million times better way to spend your time.

And btw, an absentee Hashelmite landlord doesn't really equate to turkey "owning" palestine. God the ignornace goes on forever.

So, if a geographic area is a territory in an empire it is not "owned"?

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=115037&tocid=45065&query=palestine&ct=eb

Perhaps, it was not the center of the Ottoman Empire, but it was part of it. The point is that the land has been occupied so many times that the claim that its all the Palestinians is absurd.

Based on your post above, it is clear that your perspective is biased (anti-zionist). So what type of history is your area of focus? Is your degree in "Arab/Middle Eastern Studies"? If so, it might explain the revisionist views you seem to espouse.

Originally posted by mental pimp
theres palestinians living in israel!?

Yes, there are quite a bit and there are elected representives in the Kinesett.

Dear Mr.Pimp,
I care about the lives of Palestinians:here and in the next.I've also enjoyed this thread.Why is it necessary for people on both sides to get so excited, emotional and ugly? You never get your points across effectively that way.
Ponder this one, if you will young man:
The predominantly Islamic countries have no tolerance for peoples of other faiths and especially the spreading of such. The cool thing about this 'ugly' America that we have the pleasure of sharing is you have the freedom to disagree with our government and voice it loudly if you so choose.You can practice practically any faith you desire. You can even spout off your religious convictions in all sorts of forums-FREELY. America (The U.S) is open and accepting to a fault (That may be part of our undoing)
I will leave you to figure why that is the case and what philosophies and religious angles gave birth to these freedoms.
Much love.

I'm glad you think that I'm going to hell because I SAY that Arabs are terrorists and that is wrong. But when a sucide bomber kills people for no reason, that person is going to Allah and live the good life with the ladies. Smart. Both you and Comps thinking disgusts me. You should both be shipped out to sea with the rest of your fellows terrorists living in this country.

How come the middle east is such a hell hole? How come I couldn't go to any Arab country without fearing for my life? An arab could come to the US and be fine. An Arab can go to Canada and be fine. And arab can go anywhere he/she/it chooses and be fine. But can an American go to Syria for vacation (not that anyone would want to)? Why not? Explain. Why not? Is it because your people have such high morals?

How does it feel to have an entire global population hate your guts? IS that what you strive for? Is that the business of successful ideas from your head tyrants?

Why don't your people make goods and export them to other countries (bombs are not goods MP and comp).

Why, why, why? Name another country/entire area of the world that is so hated globally. What you think that everyone is wrong and you are right? You gonna back that up by saying, "You don't know me!?" (Ricki Lake style). Everyone elses historical perspective is wrong? You, the uneducated, self-fed propanganda bullshit by Al-Jazeera, know all? It is all a cover-up because the US supports Israel and people hate America...right?

Get real you make me sick. I'm going to hell? On the contrary. You and everyone with these sick ideas of an self-proposed Arab nation by way of killing innocent people- you, my enemy, are going to hell. Allah, will not be seeing you anytime soon, no matter how many times per day you get on your knees and pray.

The Arab people in the Middle East have nothing. They have no money, no food, no sanitation, no education, no nice cars, no nice houses, no nice clothes, can never take a vacation and get out of that sand storm, no professional sport teams, no hobbies, plain in simple their bane existance is horrendous and I wouldn't wish that life on my worst enemy. But that is the root of the problem. Because these lonley people have absolutely nothing, they need to believe in something, so goes religion. These extremist clerics get up there and chant about fortune and fame and wealth, if you believe this and that. If you bomb a car today we will give your family $25,000. If you don't bomb a car today we will kill you and your family and rape your mother while she bleeds out. Other nations can't give your countries money for aid, because the leadership will spend that money on arms and not to give food or water to needy people. Why?

Why do your people do bad things to their own people? Why don't they give their own people freedom? It is because they can't give them too much freedom otherwise people will wise up and realize what they are doing. If they voice their opinions on the matter they will be killed. I don't see any love lost in Iraq do you? And this comes 6 months after they held a joke of a presidential election, where Saddam got 100% of the vote! HA!

Your leaders are intolerable. Your Arab societies are intolerable. I feel sorry for your people because they don't know the real story. Religion can have some damning effect on people, when they have nothing. Your religion is a cult. Satanic Cult, that just look within for the problem. "Its not us, its them"- is your motto. It is a sad, sad existence over there.

Worst of all. We got people like you 2 or 3 that come over here somehow and piss on the land that provides for you. Do you even know the Pledge of allegeance? Do you sing the words or even acknowledge its meaning? Did you cry for those people that died on 9/11? Did you even care? Did you want revenge on the a-holes that coordinated it? Or was it okay because they were muslims and since they are the same religion you'll let it fly.

Take your sorry asses back to the corrupt sand infested wasteland of the great middle east and never come back!

Originally posted by Goldenhue22
How does it feel to have an entire global population hate your guts?

......Name another country/entire area of the world that is so hated globally.

In addition to the fact that your earlier posts have shown you to be an extreme racist that cannot offer anything constructive the above shows how ignorant you are to world opinion. Right or wrong, Israel is the most disliked country amongst amongst citizens outside the USA. Of course we Americans are not so well liked, either.

Originally posted by mental pimp
theres palestinians living in israel!?

OK. I take back any defense of you I might have posted earlier with regards to your age or point of view.
You are really just a complete moron.
That is the most deficient, naive, hebetudinous statement you have made yet.
Despite your claim to Palestine or being Palestinian, have you ever been there?
Rather, have you ever been anywhere?
More to the point, do you ever even leave your room?
I'm un-subbing this thread. I have lost way too much faith in Human-kind at this point.
You should have been eaten by a wild pack of hyenas by now.
Ja-hosh...

Originally posted by mental pimp
theres palestinians living in israel!?

I think you and some others on both extremes of this topic need to bone up on the facts before you go starting fights in such a public manner. There are quite few Arab Israelis. In fact, I did a quick search and discovered 18% (~900,000) of Israeli citizens are Arab. Unfortunately, these people are treated as second class citizens. In a supposedly "free and democratic" society Arab Israelis are forbidden from land ownership in the majority of land. I think this policy only fans the flames more.

Oh and for the other side: there are Arab Jews living in other Mid East countries, including some living in Baghdad. These people are also treated as second class citizens. Same goes for the Christians but to a lesser extent.

Again, some of you need to take a chill pill.
Goldenhue, the 15 year old kid insults you and your off to the races (no pun intended). I'm beginning to think that's his intention. He may enjoy stirring people up.Take to a higher level if you care to continue.

Once again, closing this. Because it cannot be discussed politely without throwing insults, any more threads about this will be closed as well. Perhaps you can try again in a year or so, mental.