I have begun working on mods for my Rx8, including doing a lot of research on various forms of FI and reliability factors etc. I am incredibly happy with my Rx8's looks and handling but disappointed with the power. The car simply is not fast enough stock. One of the things I started doing was comparing modified Rx8s to other modified import "tuner" cars like Rx7s, STis, and Evos. Why is it exactly that modified Rx8s seem to top out in HP around the 350-400 range while there are so many 600-800 HP cars of other designs. The stock N/A Rx8 isn't that far behind a stock Evo or STi in HP discounting the turbos... with a turbo the 8 should be noticably quicker than a stock Evo or STi... why does it seem to stop there?

Are the mods simply cheaper for the more popular Evo, STi and RX-7? Given similar investment the only signifigant difference I can see is that Rx8s are not as popular so they don't get the same aftermarket support that the others get, and the Renesis has such high compression it makes really cranking the boost dangerous/impossible? I've seen a lot of high horsepower rotary cars built using the 13B motor from the RX-7, and of course the 20B. Is it the fault of the Renesis that signifigant horsepower upgrades are so difficult or impossible? What are any other major components of the Rx8 that make it difficult or more expensive to modify.

I'm just sort of typing out loud, because I love how my Rx8 looks and handles, but I don't want to start putting a lot of time and money investing in a car without seriously thinking about what is possible on the platform.

I have begun working on mods for my Rx8, including doing a lot of research on various forms of FI and reliability factors etc. I am incredibly happy with my Rx8's looks and handling but disappointed with the power. The car simply is not fast enough stock. One of the things I started doing was comparing modified Rx8s to other modified import "tuner" cars like Rx7s, STis, and Evos. Why is it exactly that modified Rx8s seem to top out in HP around the 350-400 range while there are so many 600-800 HP cars of other designs. The stock N/A Rx8 isn't that far behind a stock Evo or STi in HP discounting the turbos... with a turbo the 8 should be noticably quicker than a stock Evo or STi... why does it seem to stop there?

Are the mods simply cheaper for the more popular Evo, STi and RX-7? Given similar investment the only signifigant difference I can see is that Rx8s are not as popular so they don't get the same aftermarket support that the others get, and the Renesis has such high compression it makes really cranking the boost dangerous/impossible? I've seen a lot of high horsepower rotary cars built using the 13B motor from the RX-7, and of course the 20B. Is it the fault of the Renesis that signifigant horsepower upgrades are so difficult or impossible? What are any other major components of the Rx8 that make it difficult or more expensive to modify.

I'm just sort of typing out loud, because I love how my Rx8 looks and handles, but I don't want to start putting a lot of time and money investing in a car without seriously thinking about what is possible on the platform.


the Renesis is still "new territory" in the grand scheme of things.

tuning limitations were a big factor until the last year or so

compression ratio.

Stock turbo cars are generally easier to get more hp out of because they were designed from the start with boost in mind. This makes the initial hurdles of getting significantly more power out of the car easier. A lot of stock turbo cars will gain more HP out of a simple down pipe change than an rx-8 or most well built NA cars will get out of pretty much every available add on.

On top of that, you have a higher compression which lowers the boost/heat/octane level at which you start to ping/detonate. It doesn't make it impossible - it just makes it a little harder. Also note that the number one selling point of the rx8 is either it's handling or looks. Horsepower junkies do not buy Rx8s in the same numbers as they do more muscular cars. Most Rx8 owners bought their cars knowing they would never put down 300 to the wheels and considering it still to be a good buy. The demand isn't going to be there. The dynamic is not quite the same as say a mustang crowd where if a generation of mustang wasn't capable of gaudy hp numbers it would be a failure.

Why is it so crucial for an NA car of the ilk of an Rx8, mx5, s2000 or other handling first car be capable of 400+ HP anyway?

Most Rx8 owners bought their cars knowing they would never put down 300 to the wheels

but there are those that bought it knowing they would put 300 down :)

hehe

One other reason that the Renny has to contend with, Air Flow out of the engine.
The exhaust ports can only flow so much. Since how the ports are cast in the irons, there isn't much room between them and the wather jacket for growth.

I know I can put more air in my motor than what it can expell.

I have begun working on mods for my Rx8, including doing a lot of research on various forms of FI and reliability factors etc. I am incredibly happy with my Rx8's looks and handling but disappointed with the power. The car simply is not fast enough stock. One of the things I started doing was comparing modified Rx8s to other modified import "tuner" cars like Rx7s, STis, and Evos. Why is it exactly that modified Rx8s seem to top out in HP around the 350-400 range while there are so many 600-800 HP cars of other designs. The stock N/A Rx8 isn't that far behind a stock Evo or STi in HP discounting the turbos... with a turbo the 8 should be noticably quicker than a stock Evo or STi... why does it seem to stop there?

Are the mods simply cheaper for the more popular Evo, STi and RX-7? Given similar investment the only signifigant difference I can see is that Rx8s are not as popular so they don't get the same aftermarket support that the others get, and the Renesis has such high compression it makes really cranking the boost dangerous/impossible? I've seen a lot of high horsepower rotary cars built using the 13B motor from the RX-7, and of course the 20B. Is it the fault of the Renesis that signifigant horsepower upgrades are so difficult or impossible? What are any other major components of the Rx8 that make it difficult or more expensive to modify.

I'm just sort of typing out loud, because I love how my Rx8 looks and handles, but I don't want to start putting a lot of time and money investing in a car without seriously thinking about what is possible on the platform.

renesis (13b-msp) is just really the fuel economic version of the 13b. if you want to get over the 350-400hp range then swap a 13-re in it its basically the same platform just with turbo.

but there are those that bought it knowing they would put 300 down :)

hehe

Yeah - I did 300 whp already. We'll see where I get.

One other reason that the Renny has to contend with, Air Flow out of the engine.
The exhaust ports can only flow so much. Since how the ports are cast in the irons, there isn't much room between them and the wather jacket for growth.

I know I can put more air in my motor than what it can expell.

I've never heard of the Renesis flow capabilities being an issue. I've heard it basically out flows the REW top to bottom (hence why it can make as much hp as it does NA). Some reference the direction of the ports (side plates) and design (middle siamese port) as disruptive to turbo spooling and robbing of exhaust energy, but I don't think anyone has reached a power level where it is legitimately an issue.

All I've really seen is people start cranking up the boost and then screwing up a tune or overheating. If there were 10x as many people pushing over 300 whp (which is quite achievable now), you'd see a lot more progress at the higher power levels.

Everyone that wants a 500 HP+, <3.0 liter car has never driven one on a daily basis.

when we get ported side exhaust port kit we will own

Agreed, 500+HP on these small engines seems like a great idea if you have done it. Its no longer a car you want to drive anywhere, no roadtrips, etc. If you can hit 300hp, be happy.

^^ I take it you mean if you haven't done it.

All the complainers and horsepower apologists need to do is take two drives - one in a twitchy, "500+ HP" RX-7 and another in a carefully tuned 300 HP RX-8 to get a perspective on what they are talking about.

Really, I'm just sick of people fixating on horsepower; it is complete crap and totally useless.

If you're not building a race car, anything over 350 HP in a 3000 lb. car is a bit silly anyway IMO. Hell, even in my slow-ass NA 8 I'm waiting on other traffic most of the time... granted every once in a while it would be nice to lay down a nice healthy patch of rubber, but you don't need any more than the 300-350 HP that many 8's are currently producing to do that.

I think the main reason for renesis engines not producing ridiculous HP numbers is that nobody cares enough to do it. If you really want to make 400-500HP, why try to figure out a new engine with new pitfalls and quirks when you can just do what's been done a million times before with a 13B-RE or something similar? Most people would rather stick with what they're familiar and comfortable with than try new things... when it comes to cars where things can get expensive and time consuming very quickly I can kind of understand that.

Really, I'm just sick of people fixating on horsepower; it is complete crap and totally useless.

I know what you mean... way too many so called "car people" are fixated on peak horsepower, which is such a small part of the picture, especially if it's a street car

Horsepower is a function of RPM. Most small motors making a lot of HP do it by more spin.
Torque curve area is the only thing that matters in a street car.

The only thing that matters.

Until your daily drive consists entirely of long, accelerated runs up to 200 MPH and no stops or slow-downs, you will never experience your car's horsepower potential.

I think the main reason for renesis engines not producing ridiculous HP numbers is that nobody cares enough to do it.

"Cares" is probably a bit loaded, but your point is correct.
No one that is serious about this car's potential as a lovable, livable, useable piece of hardware is willing to find that power at the expense of comfort and drivability.

Horsepower is a function of RPM. Most small motors making a lot of HP do it by more spin.
Torque curve area is the only thing that matters in a street car.

The only thing that matters.

Until your daily drive consists entirely of long, accelerated runs up to 200 MPH and no stops or slow-downs, you will never experience your car's horsepower potential.

Yup. I think many people use peak horsepower as a "quick measure" of their car's overall performance relative to other cars of the same model, and in that capacity it's alright... until you throw turbos into the mix where the area under the curve can change significantly depending on the setup. I think I'm going to get a massive turbo that doesn't spool up until 9000 RPM and see what kind of HP numbers I can get :lol2:

Thank you all for the responses, I really appreciate the legitimate responses and lack of flames. I do love my Rx8, I've just been a bit puzzled by the apparent lack of recognition by most car enthusiasts for what seems like such an amazing car. The torque and hp do seem low to me, but I come from the American muscle cars side of things. I've owned a Corvette and Z28 prior to my Rx8 so I'm used to a lot of low-end torque and high hp from a big v8. I've really come to appreciate handling, finese, and butter smooth acceleration from the rotary in my 8, but I still crave more torque/hp.

I love the sound and feel of the rotary engine, and I think I'm decided to stick with modding up my Rx8 and going against the grain.

Really, I'm just sick of people fixating on horsepower; it is complete crap and totally useless.

^ new sig added, from now on, if you ever say "you need hp, get my turbo kit" I will have you Jeff, I WILL HAVE YOU!!!

MUHAHAHAH

Sounds like you need an engine swap or a different car. Hopefully you have the money for the engine swap. I know I'd have a 20B or LS1 RX-8 if I had the money. I'm in college so I went with another car instead.

I love the "power doesn't matter" talk. Seems to me there are definitely people on this site who don't care about power and are truly enthusiasts of balanced cars. Kudos to you. But there are also plenty that come off like they are just saying it because they can't/don't have good power.

power isn't really everything but some people enjoy taking their car to another level; not just seeking power but the pride to say yup thats my baby get where i'm coming from???

power isn't really everything but some people enjoy taking their car to another level; not just seeking power but the pride to say yup thats my baby get where i'm coming from???

Exactly Rotore, it's not just the raw power, its that I would really like to invest some time and money into my car and make it something special, but I see a lot of modded Rx8s that don't seem to get a lot of notice or attention in the tuner scene because they have low hp numbers. I mean, I don't give a rats ass what people think if I like it, but I do like torque/hp and was curious what was keeping 8s from showing higher numbers.

I would love to have a 20B swap because I think the 3 rotor engine is the best sounding engine I've ever heard... I mean, it sounds like it's trying to eat someone. *drool* That being said, I don't think that a 20B swap is doable for me atm just due to price of the swap. I would never go LSx with an Rx8 anyway, because I've had a Corvette and although it's a great engine it loses the characteristics of what an Rx8 is about to me.

Exactly Rotore, it's not just the raw power, its that I would really like to invest some time and money into my car and make it something special, but I see a lot of modded Rx8s that don't seem to get a lot of notice or attention in the tuner scene because they have low hp numbers. I mean, I don't give a rats ass what people think if I like it, but I do like torque/hp and was curious what was keeping 8s from showing higher numbers.

I would love to have a 20B swap because I think the 3 rotor engine is the best sounding engine I've ever heard... I mean, it sounds like it's trying to eat someone. *drool* That being said, I don't think that a 20B swap is doable for me atm just due to price of the swap. I would never go LSx with an Rx8 anyway, because I've had a Corvette and although it's a great engine it loses the characteristics of what an Rx8 is about to me.

thank you

power isn't really everything but some people enjoy taking their car to another level; not just seeking power but the pride to say yup thats my baby get where i'm coming from???

No, I don't.
Saying you have "X" amount of power is meaningless. It isn't another level, its just nut-swinging.

If you have two cars - exactly the same in every way and both making 300 ft/lbs of torque - but one makes 500 HP and a torque curve shaped like "^" and the other makes 300 HP, but has a torque curve shaped like "¯", which is the faster car?

I will take a car with half the power but twice the area under the torque curve any day of the week in any form of racing - even bracket drag racing.

That's true MazdaManiac (or do you prefer Jeff?), but I'm curious, isn't one of the issues with the rotary in general lack of torque? Even more than horsepower, I thought low-end torque in particular isn't one of the strengths of rotaries.

The renesis doesn't produce amazing torque at the crank, no, but it's torque curve is incredibly flat compared to most piston engines, and it revs higher as well. It's not quite the "electric motor" delivery Mazda makes it out to be, but it's damn good for an internal combustion engine. A 300 HP renesis (barring laggy turbo setups) will have more area under the torque curve than any other engine that produces a similar peak HP number. Then you just use proper gear ratios in your trans/diff to put the torque to the ground that you desire.

Peak HP is just a theoretical measure of the top speed of a given vehicle... it doesn't tell you how fast that car will get to that speed. It's pretty meaningless by itself... area under the torque curve (or HP curve if you prefer) is what matters.

The renesis doesn't produce amazing torque at the crank, no, but it's torque curve is incredibly flat compared to most piston engines, and it revs higher as well. It's not quite the "electric motor" delivery Mazda makes it out to be, but it's damn good for an internal combustion engine. A 300 HP renesis (barring laggy turbo setups) will have more area under the torque curve than any other engine that produces a similar peak HP number. Then you just use proper gear ratios in your trans/diff to put the torque to the ground that you desire.

Peak HP is just a theoretical measure of the top speed of a given vehicle... it doesn't tell you how fast that car will get to that speed. It's pretty meaningless by itself... area under the torque curve (or HP curve if you prefer) is what matters.

Thanks, that explains a lot. I understood the high revving part, but I didn't quite understand before the area under the torque curve. I'm defnitely one of those people that I couldn't care less what my top speed is (because lets be honest, N/A Rx8 has a top speed most of us will never hit) but I'm definitely concerned in how fast I get there.

Well, once you're moving, the only real part of the torque curve that matters on an rx8 is above 6k. The redline on the MT is high enough that you never need to drive below 6k. I mean, it's nice in some turbo cars to just drop your foot in top gear and have a nice amount of acceleration, but it isn't entirely necessary. An evo isn't going to go to a track day and just do laps in 5th. Torque curve shapes are important in different ways depending on what you do. A track car wants high torque through whatever rpm band is in use. A drag car wants as much torque following the shift as it can get. Acceleration early in a gear is faster than acceleration later. You could make a case that by tuning a drag car for minimal HP (delining torque curve) is faster than maximum hp (increasing torque curve).

Then again, more torque at all RPMs is pretty sweet too.

This is probably the most nicest thread I've ever read on here. With a lot of basic knowledge for all. I'm impressed with the politeness.

Which of these cars is faster from traffic light to traffic light?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124328&stc=1&d=1217618917

Well, once you're moving, the only real part of the torque curve that matters on an rx8 is above 6k. The redline on the MT is high enough that you never need to drive below 6k. I mean, it's nice in some turbo cars to just drop your foot in top gear and have a nice amount of acceleration, but it isn't entirely necessary. An evo isn't going to go to a track day and just do laps in 5th. Torque curve shapes are important in different ways depending on what you do. A track car wants high torque through whatever rpm band is in use. A drag car wants as much torque following the shift as it can get. Acceleration early in a gear is faster than acceleration later. You could make a case that by tuning a drag car for minimal HP (delining torque curve) is faster than maximum hp (increasing torque curve).

Then again, more torque at all RPMs is pretty sweet too.

YES!

Do enough driving at fast tracks like Road America and you'll gladly give up power from 3-5.5 K in exchange for more headroom from 5.5K+.

Nevermind. My small brain has comprehended it!

How far apart are the traffic lights? And why are you street racing? You're a bad man!

Well, once you're moving, the only real part of the torque curve that matters on an rx8 is above 6k. The redline on the MT is high enough that you never need to drive below 6k.

Fair enough. The way the 8 is geared if you redline it you're not going to be using a lot of that area under the curve after you get out of 1st gear... it's still nice to have for driveability purposes. Personally I'd like to see a reworked gear-box for NA 8s... the '09 ratios are probably a step in the right direction, but it would be fun to play with something even more aggressive. I'd need to sit down and work out the ratios, but I think it could be made a fair bit quicker than it is right now with the downside being it would be harder to drive, and 1st gear would be totally useless at anything other than a dead stand still :)

This is probably the most nicest thread I've ever read on here. With a lot of basic knowledge for all. I'm impressed with the politeness.

Me too, I seriously appreciate not being flamed to hell and actually learning something.

RE: MazdaManiac, I think I see what you mean showing the dyno, the high end of the hp/torque might be higher on the purple car, but the yellow car has a much flatter torque curve?

Think in terms of how much shaded area is under each of the torque curves.
The car with more shading is going to be the faster car.

Which of these cars is faster from traffic light to traffic light?

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124328&stc=1&d=1217618917


I don't know. How much does each of them weigh? Who's driving them and how are they geared. Tires count too. :lol:
10,000+ posts? What else do you do?

I don't know. How much does each of them weigh? Who's driving them and how are they geared. Tires count too. :lol:
10,000+ posts? What else do you do?

lol.

The are both 2004 RX-8s. You can deduce the rest.

I spend a LOT of time in airports right now, so what else am I going to do but post on this forum?

Think in terms of how much shaded area is under each of the torque curves.
The car with more shading is going to be the faster car.

Hmmm - I'm pretty sure I could come up with a torque curve scenario where a car with a lower torque curve area would still win (albeit still favoring lower end torque). Then again, if I needed a car that would blow everyone's doors off from a dig, I probably would not have bought the eight. I loves me some top end.

When you swinging out east, MM?

When you swinging out east, MM?

I'm in MD almost every week, but there isn't any time for car stuff, unfortunately.

MD - semi too far south unless you're in MD on the weekend of 9/7. That looks to be the JPR BBQ which is not terribly far from MD.

Good info. So what is the desirable torque curve to have the best acceleration from 0-100 mph? How would you calculate getting the correct gear ratios to achieve the best torque to the ground for that?

No, I don't.
Saying you have "X" amount of power is meaningless. It isn't another level, its just nut-swinging.

If you have two cars - exactly the same in every way and both making 300 ft/lbs of torque - but one makes 500 HP and a torque curve shaped like "^" and the other makes 300 HP, but has a torque curve shaped like "¯", which is the faster car?

I will take a car with half the power but twice the area under the torque curve any day of the week in any form of racing - even bracket drag racing.

i dont mean making more power to say you have X amount of power and bragging about it. What im trying to say that some people decide to make there car faster to experience to what limit there car/engine will go to understand. not all of us buy a car just to make it faster, we enjoy the car as much as we can until we get curious about its limits then we start modifying it bit by bit.

Also in the long run the car with a the torque curve shaped like "¯" will with out a dought win but if its just a 1/4 mile i'll take the car with the torque curved shaped like "^", it's just a 1/4 mile most drag cars only go up to 4gear. thats just how i look at it....

Exactly Rotore, it's not just the raw power, its that I would really like to invest some time and money into my car and make it something special, but I see a lot of modded Rx8s that don't seem to get a lot of notice or attention in the tuner scene because they have low hp numbers. I mean, I don't give a rats ass what people think if I like it, but I do like torque/hp and was curious what was keeping 8s from showing higher numbers.

I would love to have a 20B swap because I think the 3 rotor engine is the best sounding engine I've ever heard... I mean, it sounds like it's trying to eat someone. *drool* That being said, I don't think that a 20B swap is doable for me atm just due to price of the swap. I would never go LSx with an Rx8 anyway, because I've had a Corvette and although it's a great engine it loses the characteristics of what an Rx8 is about to me.
RX-8's don't get a lot of attention in the "tuner scene" because most people are ignorant and don't know squat about them. They hear rumors about different things like reliability, eats oil, low end power and automatically assume they suck when they don't know any facts about it.
Even in an N/A 8, just keep the revs high and it will put a smile on your face every time. Especially when getting it sideways around turns...

I agree with everyone on the HP doesn't mean anything, its about the torque and the curve it produces. Alot of people I work with ask me how much HP I will get after I get the MM/BHR turbo kit. I tell them I'm looking for about 300 at the wheels and they seem disappointed. I try to explain the torque curve to them but they don't get it. People get so stuck in HP numbers and they think that's the only thing that matters. Very annoying. If they drove the car with the kind of numbers MM was putting down, I'm sure they would change their minds. That's fine though, I will have fun in my car and the ignorant people can just go buy their muscle cars and can be unhappy. :) At least they will have 298342946198247useless RWHP that can only go in a straight line along with the useless "bragging rights" to go along with it. Boo.

--Jonathan

RX-8's don't get a lot of attention in the "tuner scene" because most people are ignorant and don't know squat about them. They hear rumors about different things like reliability, eats oil, low end power and automatically assume they suck when they don't know any facts about it.
Even in an N/A 8, just keep the revs high and it will put a smile on your face every time. Especially when getting it sideways around turns...

I agree with everyone on the HP doesn't mean anything, its about the torque and the curve it produces. Alot of people I work with ask me how much HP I will get after I get the MM/BHR turbo kit. I tell them I'm looking for about 300 at the wheels and they seem disappointed. I try to explain the torque curve to them but they don't get it. People get so stuck in HP numbers and they think that's the only thing that matters. Very annoying. If they drove the car with the kind of numbers MM was putting down, I'm sure they would change their minds. That's fine though, I will have fun in my car and the ignorant people can just go buy their muscle cars and can be unhappy. :) At least they will have 298342946198247useless RWHP that can only go in a straight line along with the useless "bragging rights" to go along with it. Boo.

--Jonathan

Boo? but i rather have both hp and tq

the Mazsport will wtf rape your's MM, it's simple math really, 8.5K wins over 6.5k........ seriously....I thought you were smart

Boo? but i rather have both hp and tq
That's a given. I wasn't talking about having alot of both though. Was referring to how people seem to only care what HP I have in the car, not what the torque curve is or how much.

--Jonathan

That's a given. I wasn't talking about having alot of both though. Was referring to how people seem to only care what HP I have in the car, not what the torque curve is or how much.

--Jonathan

they dont know better... you have to let them learn the hard way

^agreed

thank you and nice car:squint:

Everyone that wants a 500 HP+, <3.0 liter car has never driven one on a daily basis.

That was my point up until 6:00 or so yesterday.

You are out in MD every week MM? What area? I live down the street from BWI pretty much.

Rockville, Silver Spring.
I usually fly in National.

the Mazsport will wtf rape your's MM, it's simple math really, 8.5K wins over 6.5k........ seriously....I thought you were smart

Is that a serious comment? the MM kit has such a nicer torque curve and, by looking at the dynos, quicker overall engine responsiveness. barring other modifications of two vehicles racing side by side, the MM kit would at a minimum get a head start, although the mazsport might overtake it or accelerate faster starting from a higher speed.

but, it's ultimately about what you want your car to do. i personally agree with the "-" approach, but people can target whatever they want. i think that the rx-8 represents balance and grace; a high-revving, tossable car with superb responsiveness and unmatched agility for the price. mixing those characteristics with massive HP numbers doesn't work - the only way to get them is with a huge turbo, which drastically lowers your reliability, engine response, and overall "fun factor" (which I think is what MM was getting at earlier). You can get your RX8 on a magazine cover by getting it to 500hp, but you'll practically be killing the soul of an incredible machine by doing it. i think that, in the end, it's just the wrong car for the purpose and that people recognize this, hence the fact that we don't really see anyone over 400hp.

also...fantastic thread! glad the initial question was posted :)

Is that a serious comment?

Look at the source!

Dudes, mazsport owned wtfroflmaobbg Taj's keg.
Clamps FTW!

after a year wrecking havoc on this forum and people still think I make sense, even though I do, in retro-world, but still MM sucks, his tunes are off, his turbo kit is retarded, and his turbo is wayyy off in size, his avatar sucks, he's obviously gay, he has a cat and he likes to put his cat next to a supercharger and take pics, he sells E-manage blue for a living, and is currently making a supercharger kit cus superchargers are awesome for rx8

OK, I've calculated out a few of the turbo and SC kits. Like the previous graph, all of these are rated on all 6 gear ratios and final gear, it includes the drag coefficient of 0.31. Vehicle weight is 3,000 lbs, driver weight is 160 lbs, tires are 235/45/18. 500 ms to change gears.

Using the torque numbers from 3,000 rpm to 8,000 rpm, this is what each kit comes out to using just math:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122670&stc=1&d=1214185035

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122669&stc=1&d=1214185035

This really illustrates what torque does for a car in acceleration especially when the power is under the curve and not just up high later in the RPM band.

Once you're talking about overall power and how quickly the car comes to speed, the 360 whp of the Mazsport means it will end up being the fastest of the bunch, but it takes till 4th gear till it can catch up with the MazdaManiac kit running 50 whp less and on less boost. Again, this based only on the dyno graphs in the first post of this thread using torque numbers. Many of the kits here can raise psi so what's listed here doesn't mean absolute best or anything like that. It just gives us an actual real world 0-60 time to compare along with the dyno numbers.

Now for overall power, here's what the times are when the driver shifts into 5th gear (118 mph):

Masport turbo: 12.4 sec
MazdaManiac turbo: 12.8 sec
.
This excellent post (edited out all but the two kits talked about here) by mysql illustrates what you guys are talking about .
Only issue I see with it is that in the "real world" both cars will be slipping the clutch and spinning the tyres so the torque lower down the curve is not much of an advantage unless something is done about getting traction .....Both cars will be over 6000 rpm in 1st by the time the smoke clears .
All else being equal I would pick the car with the most torque under the curve in the 6000 - 9000 range to be quickest .

That said - I would still rather have the flatter torque curve for the street . I think it would be way more practical and it would feel like you had a bigger engine

well, you have to take all things with a grain of salt. I don't think my final tune will look anything like the mazsport graph used as I've already done 267 ft lbs at 5500 rpms which will result in a different looking torque curve (unless gutting my cat produces a huge torque shift). That said, right now I'm basically 1 car length faster than a bone stock BMW 335xi because my torque plummets due to the cat

Do you have the stock Mazsport turbo ? I know Scott has a few options for the turbo sizing ....
Are you using a boost controller ?

My mods are in my profile/garage. I opted for the larger turbine side. I don't know the combination of parts that went into that 363 dyno but I'm guessing that the variations in the supporting components can make a significant difference. I'm running 11.5 psi peak (instead of 13) but if car in that dyno was up to full boost before 5000 and is not ported or using a modified IM, I'm not sure why the torque peak would be so late.

maxx............how fast does your mazsport spool? when does it reach full spooling? cus mine reaches full boost @ about 4.5k rpm then it takes off, but I can feel a huge kick in the neck at about 3.5k rpm, that's when that huge jolt hits me
I have no boost controller and am running the base map......still awesome though :) in a full race situation, like you said, we'd probably be clutch dropping higher up, so the low down power and stuff wouldn't really matter

it would if you like to go very fast from stoplight to stop light

this way my car runs normally down low and goes really fast when I want it to, cus I need to daily drive it,

and as most people know: taj +300+whp vehicle = disaster

so yea

but if you just want an awesome all around feeling car, I think the BHR kit might be a better choice, + it's cheaper

Taj - are you serious man ? You didn't taj up your engine afterall ?

I would say I'm at full boost around 4500. I have a plot of it on my desk at work along with my dyno numbers and afrs. I'm waiting on a couple things to get done before I go for final numbers. I don't really need the low end as I don't drag race and actually, after 2.5 years and 30k miles, I have yet to actually drag launch the car. Usually, I get into first fairly softly and won't usually punch it until I'm in second. I also drive the traction/stability controls on pretty much all the time. The car is really just in a drivable state rather than tuned.

maxx............how fast does your mazsport spool? when does it reach full spooling? cus mine reaches full boost @ about 4.5k rpm then it takes off, but I can feel a huge kick in the neck at about 3.5k rpm, that's when that huge jolt hits me
I have no boost controller and am running the base map......still awesome though :) in a full race situation, like you said, we'd probably be clutch dropping higher up, so the low down power and stuff wouldn't really matter

it would if you like to go very fast from stoplight to stop light

this way my car runs normally down low and goes really fast when I want it to, cus I need to daily drive it,

and as most people know: taj +300+whp vehicle = disaster

so yea

but if you just want an awesome all around feeling car, I think the BHR kit might be a better choice, + it's cheaper
I knew it! Your story was way too unbelievable to be true about grenading your engine. Fail. :)

lol...

then I guess we have the same hot side housing...........

however, I must say, need some seriousness with the low end power still, even if you don't usually stay there that long anyways........I think off the line the BHR kit will probably win us in the 1st 20-30 miles

I asked a similar question here not too long ago. Air flow seems to be the culprit. Having no aftermarket options for an intake manifold is ridiculous to me. There is just no reason for ports in the intake manifold to open at certain RPMs in a FI application. Maybe I am wrong. A car with 500+ whp should no longer be your daily driver imho. While reliability is always important, it goes without saying in any car with a lot of power there will always be complications.