I just got one of the first Rotary Extreme intakes from Chuck about a week ago, and it took me about 30 minutes to install. I would have posted about it earlier but wanted a few days to test it out so I could give a full report on it, which was part of the agreement for getting mine sooner :) . (Plus I’m Special :p )

Customer Service:

First off, Chuck (Rotary Extreme) was extremely helpful with everything, from customer service to answering all my questions and fast delivery. I don’t have one bad thing to say about the company or owner, and I have dealt with Chuck on many occasions and for a very long time. Shipping took only 3 days from when I ordered it, and packaging was great and came with everything, minus instructions, which are posted on his site.

Installation:

Installation was pretty straight forward even without instructions, since it’s your basic intake install, and shouldn’t be very hard even for those who never even touched an engine bay. Hardest part if there is one, however, is to disconnect the vacuum line and reroute it. Which is explained in the instructions. Once completed, the intake looks absolutely beautiful, and very tasteful. The polished intake cover and tube really makes the engine bay shine and look great. The intake even retains the stock holes to keep the engine cover in place and looks great with it on or off. The fact that this intake is the best looking was the main reason why I decided on this over the K&N, and others. Its also not too expensive, and built very well and doesn’t look like a half ass intake someone just put together from “you-know-where,” so I was very happy with it.

Results:

After having the intake installed and everything back together, I turned on the car and noticed just a slight growl from the intake once cranked (oh yeah :) ). At idle after initial start-up, the car sounds the same as stock. Once the car warmed up and no warning lights or anything else seemed wrong, I took it out for a spin and that’s when my fun began :D .

The car really starts to sound like a rotary after an intake is installed, and gets nicely loud and robust when needed. When driving at regular speeds and keeping RPM's low, the car keeps its stock sound and won’t offend anyone with even the lightest ear. Give it a half throttle and it will give you a nice deep growl only a rotary could make ;) . Floor it and the car sounds significantly different from its former OEM self, and your greeting to a nice deep wailing growl all the way to redline. I was pleasantly surprised how much louder the car actually got with the intake, since the car is super quite in stock form. By no means does it sound bad or obnoxiously loud, however, and everyone I took with me in the car complimented on the beefier sound the car made. If you prefer keeping in quite though, just don’t floor it, and it sounds just the same as stock, so it only sounds like a rotary beast when called upon :) .

As far as Hp and TQ gains go, I didn’t dyno it, but my butt and ears tell me I’m defiantly making some more power. Even if its just my ear deceiving me into thinking the car is faster, I don’t mind, since the car just sounds so much better now :p: . However, the car does respond quicker then before, and pulls a bit harder at top end.

Conclusion:

Over all I am very happy with the Rotary Extreme Intake in all aspects and it just looks so dam cool to boot :) . I would defiantly recommend it to everyone looking for a simple mod for the car, since it really helps you enjoy the car more, and really gets it to sound like a rotary, which I was really missing from the car.

- Marvin


Cliffnotes:

- Chuck + Rotary Extreme = Good

- Intake + RX-8 = even better

- $260 + shipping + tax = you getting one

- You getting one? Priceless :D

I just installed mine over the weekend.

As the previous post mentioned, this intake was easy to install even without instructions. However, thanks to Chuck, there's a nice web page with good instructions now. Also, Chuck was very quick to answer any questions via e-mail, usually within the same day.

The intake does make the car sound MUCH better, it even inspired me to take a 2 hour drive to buy 2 shirts at the Outlet mall for no reason.

AND if you get hungry, I think you can fry a burger on the heat shield!

Great posts, thanks for sharing!

any of the 2 of you have access to a dyno?...or if anyone else purchases this in the meantime with dyno access...please post your results...so far sounds promising...

Thanks guys for the info..

thanks crashunit and guy321 for your insights! i was waiting for a customer report before i decided whether or not to buy.

i guess it's time to order!

btw...do either of u have the borla exhaust installed as well? i'm planning to do both and am curious to read a customer report on having these 2 installed in tandem.

thanks again! (man, i LOVE this forum! :D)

Originally posted by ELX13
btw...do either of u have the borla exhaust installed as well? i'm planning to do both and am curious to read a customer report on having these 2 installed in tandem.

thanks again! (man, i LOVE this forum! :D)

I dont have the exhaust yet. I'm going to be brave and try the Intake with canzoomer's FC first.

What's the latest word on the Ram-Air Intake, RotaryExtreme?

Panting...

Originally posted by XeRo
any of the 2 of you have access to a dyno?...or if anyone else purchases this in the meantime with dyno access...please post your results...so far sounds promising...

Thanks guys for the info..

I have access to a dyno, however, I would have to pay. At this point I really dont see a reason to dyno just to see it make power with an intake, really no point to it, unless it was free or if someone wanted to pay for my run :) . And I probably wont even want to dyno the car till it either needs to be tuned or if the car gets pretty well modded with alot of other stuff. IMO, I probably wouldnt doubt Chucks dyno results from the Intake. It is a significant increase, however, just having an intake will by no means make the car significantly faster, so I just dont really see a point to dynoing the car after each performance mod I make.

Originally posted by huhsler
What's the latest word on the Ram-Air Intake, RotaryExtreme?

Panting...

BTW the intake box Chuck is selling now also still retains the stock ram air from the front of car's grill that the OEM one used, so it actually works as a cold air box. So I dont think the Ram Air intake that will becoming out later will make anymore HP increase, then this one. Just a FYI.

I have the Borla, and my am planning on installing my Rotary Extreme intake this weekend... if it's not so cold my fingers don't freeze to the metal.

And while I don't have a dyno, or easy access to one, I do have a G Tech Pro Comp, which has datalogging capability. I plan to use the G Tech to "dyno" the car with just the Borla (wish I'd had it to do this without the Borla, but it's too late now), then with the Borla + Rotary Extreme CAI, then with (evil grin! :D) the previous two plus CanZoomer's Stage 1 ECU piggyback. I'll post results here. Should be interesting!

Originally posted by Omicron
I have the Borla, and my am planning on installing my Rotary Extreme intake this weekend... if it's not so cold my fingers don't freeze to the metal.



Tell me about it, damn it's cold!

Noticed that Rotary Extreme is offering discounts for group buys...anyone doing this, if so I'd like to get in on the purchase!

You have to sign up with Rotary Extreme, and thus far, no one has done so. :(

Originally posted by Omicron
You have to sign up with Rotary Extreme, and thus far, no one has done so. :(

Did you get a good deal with RE? I'll be interested to hear your feedback...goodluck with the install.

Well, I feel that $260 is a reasonable price for the intake, so yes, in a manner of speaking, I got a good deal. But I didn't get any special discounts... but I wish I had, for all the talking up of the intake I've done on this forum! :D

Crashunit is in LA, Im in Fl... Anyone try the intake in cold weather yet? I'm driving to VA this week. It's supposed to be in the 50's-30's there this week. Think I'll have any cold-start problems? (I know 30's isnt that cold, but it's cold to me )

I want to buy the intake, but I want an exhaust, too. I'm getting Canzoomers Stage 1 kit + one additional mod and I'm trying to decide on which to get. I've got good info saying I should go with the exhaust (Borla or maybe Racing Beat). If it were up to any of you, what would you get? Intake or exhaust? Which is the better bang for the buck? Which will come closer or live up to the HP claims?

Both about equal performance gains. But OTHER people can hear the exhaust, while just YOU can hear the intake.

What is the clearance to the other plastic covers in the engine bay if the shielding gets hott on the intake what is the chance of it melting the other adjacent plastic covers?I only ask because I am very interested in this intake.

As for the exhaust I would also probably wait for racing beat. They have a great reputation as do borla and might be able to improve on others designs.

I am going to get canzoomers ecu mod as well. When is it comming out??

Originally posted by zerohour
What is the clearance to the other plastic covers in the engine bay if the shielding gets hott on the intake what is the chance of it melting the other adjacent plastic covers?


The plastic engine cover touches the heat shield. However, I believe the plastic was designed to withstand high temps and is not harmed by the contact with the heat shield...

Also, as a tip .. to secure the shield to it's mounting bracket two wrenches are required to fasten the bolts.. I fabricated a ring from a coke can to hold the bolt facing upwards so that I can slide on the heat shield and secure it with two wing nuts i bought from wal-mart. I can now remove the cover with my hands and I dont have to worry about the bolt dropping out.

The top engine cover is not going to melt if it's not melting right now. It's exposed to the same engine heat as the heat shield. The heat shield might feel hotter than the engine cover because metal has better heat transfer. Just like on a cold day, a metal piece appears to be colder than plastic but they are actually at the same temp.

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by zerohour
What is the clearance to the other plastic covers in the engine bay if the shielding gets hott on the intake what is the chance of it melting the other adjacent plastic covers?I only ask because I am very interested in this intake.

As for the exhaust I would also probably wait for racing beat. They have a great reputation as do borla and might be able to improve on others designs.

I am going to get canzoomers ecu mod as well. When is it comming out??

Originally posted by zerohour
What is the clearance to the other plastic covers in the engine bay if the shielding gets hott on the intake what is the chance of it melting the other adjacent plastic covers?I only ask because I am very interested in this intake.

As for the exhaust I would also probably wait for racing beat. They have a great reputation as do borla and might be able to improve on others designs.

I am going to get canzoomers ecu mod as well. When is it comming out??

Canzoomer says that the first 50 or so orders should get fedex'd off approximately the second week of December. Then he's got another 450 or so orders to fill, so I would guess it would take about a month or two to catch up with this demand. New orders will most likely start getting filled in February then. But I'm just talking out my a$$ here, it may go a lot faster or slower. Best to ask Canzoomer. :D

Sounds like Canzoomer has got more orders than he expected! Think that's great but am still wondering abput the Dyno testing promised. Assume all these orders are on good faith.

Wonder if Canzoomer will accept returns if these units don't achieve expected gains??

Thanks for your response. I appreciate your attention to my questions.

What I like most about the intake is it seems to contain one thing that the others do not and thats style that follows function. It seems to compliment the car greatly.

I will make sure to visit your site to check for sound clips.

Many Thanks.

Omicron, did you ever get to testing out the intake with your G-tech? Or what the gains were with the exhaust? Inquiring minds want to know!

Originally posted by rxtreme
Omicron, did you ever get to testing out the intake with your G-tech? Or what the gains were with the exhaust? Inquiring minds want to know! Well....

I just installed the Rotary Extreme CAI today. Decent directions, went in pretty easy after I got the stock airbox removed (and boy, was THAT a PITA!). Parts for the new intake are all great quality, everything fit perfectly.

IMHO, this kit is much better than the K&N in that it's got complete heat shielding. The price diff between the two is only about $60 bucks, and there is much more than $60 worth of heat shielding that comes with the RE unit.

As for driving impressions...

OH... MY... GOD!!! This thing ROCKS! There is a HUGE difference in sound - much louder, but with a mean growl. Makes the Renesis sound much more JET ENGINE like. Hard to explain.

My butt-dyno told me there was an improvement across the rev range. My son, who's 10, was absolutely freaked out... said the '8 seemed MUCH faster to him.

I plan to GTech it this weekend or so, and will be going and getting "real" Dyno runs done in the very near future too. I will post the results here when I get them.

Originally posted by Omicron
There is a HUGE difference in sound - much louder, but with a mean growl. Makes the Renesis sound much more JET ENGINE like. Hard to explain.

Any chance you can record the sound for us somehow? That way you wouldn't have to explain it :p

warranty voider+minimal gains=money stays in my pocket.

But does this type of mode void the warranty? What about the new exhaust systems and the tornodo thing?

Originally posted by Greg
warranty voider+minimal gains=money stays in my pocket. Does not void the warranty guys, I checked.

neither does the exhaust so long as you dont even think about touching any emmisions equipment.

The general determination on a voiding of a warranty is that it will be just fine if it is before the maf or after the cat. Anything changed in between here will affect the warranty.

interesting. My dealership said that any intake modifications excluding drop in filters will void the warranty.

..when you speak of voiding the warranty, what exactly are you voiding - everything, or just replacement of the filter in th efuture - curious....

Good question. I would guess that it would mean they could deny service regarding any engine repair based on your modifications. But I really don't know.

Originally posted by Greg
... it would mean they could deny service regarding any engine repair based on your modifications... Exactly.

Yeah, I don't think that it will completly void your warranty. If your wheel falls off while driving, I don't think that your intake caused it.

It pertains to the engine/drivetrain aspect of the warranty which is a big part. Unfortuntely there are many dealers (not all) out there that will use any excuse, valid or not, to not work on your car or to charge you for it.

Just ordered mine 20 minutes ago....think I'll get it Friday I hope.

My dealer stated that it affects the intake warranty, not other parts. I like the look of the kit, but fear it affects the class it would run in in autox, and so may hold off for a bit.

DAMN, still no intake, next week I guess....

I's funny how the subject of an auto-x pops up. My good friend Chad always complains that he doesn't want to do something to his car that will effect his auto-x class. He hasn't even been to one in 3 years. Even then the auto-x is a total of about 5 minutes of actual driving a month. I'm not going to let 5 minutes of track time effect what I do to my car. Chad doesn't want to run in class X because he says he'll lose. So what? Go to have fun. I don't care if I get dead last. I actually have been running my 1st gen RX-7 in CSP with a ported engine, and lightened flywheel. Oops! I just didn't know since I bought the car used. I don't volunteer any info but I also don't care if I win or not. It would take no time at all to switch intakes back out to stock if you are that concerned about class. I say if 99.99% of your driving is not on the track then you shouldn't let the track rules determine what you do to the car.

Sin,

Please let us know how the intake goes when you get it. I ordered mine a few days ago, so I am going to need some motivation to get me through the next few weeks while I wait for mine to reach me here in Australia.

DGW

Why notify the dealer that you plan on getting a new intake? Can't you just get a new one and if something goes wrong and you have to take your car in, just replace it with the stock intake? Could they tell the aftermarket one was ever installed?

no , they can't tell if you swap them back correctly

Wow quick reply thanks Mike, I ordered mine should be in late next week.

i think i will hold off on the mods until spring or at least until they fix my car so i never have to use my warranty again...sigh haha

Finally, will be delivered Friday!!!

Got it this morning, on tonight!!!! From when I opened the box to when I went for a test drive it took an hour to complete. The instructions at RotaryExtreme were very helpful and made easy. Followed and installed carefully to not scratch any plastics...enough....Went out for the drive and like everyone else this thing rocks!!!!!!!!!!When it got to about 4000rpms it began ro roar-----all the way till redline it was SCREAMIN. Like others have said, the dyno numbers might not be that much but its worth everything else as far as enjoyment goes...and looks great.

Great news! I can't wait till mine arrives. Should be here any day now....

Originally posted by Wildcard
Great news! I can't wait till mine arrives. Should be here any day now....

Hehehe - "Those tips will be here any minute"

hey guys,
for those who would like to know how sound an RE intake,
here is a link to Genom's post that should satisfied all ur desire...
:D
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17057

take a look at the second link on his post!!!!

Thx Genom for all the great work!!;)

Got mine today! Install was quite straight forward with the instructions on the RE website easy to follow.

At idle, the car sounded normal, with just a hint of suction coming from under the heat shield. As soon as I jumped on the throttle though, the exhaust took over. The rotary extreme intake has definately added some decibels and a deeper growl to my cat-back exhaust.

On the road, it's still quite easy to drive around quietly when it's required, and at hwy cruising speeds, noise is more or less the same as stock. But open the throttle up and woah baby! From about 3000rpm the car really starts to growl, and it just keeps going all the way to redline. By the time you hit the upper rpms, you can feel the roar in your chest and through your foot on the accelerator. This intake combined with a cat-back is certainly not for those who want to enjoy some spirited driving without being noticed. You thought this car turned heads before....

In terms of performance, the car feels like it is pulling a little harder in the 3-6000 rpm band. It helps that the engine now has a much deeper and tougher note in this region than before, with it now sounding more 'torquey'. Overall performance gain over stock is hard to quantify without hard data, but like has already been said, now I really feel like I am driving a sports car!

I just read this entire thread, and I must say, that aside from the glowing reviews by owners of the intake, this thread is COMPLETELY lacking any scientific evidence that it increases anything but the NOISE the 8 makes, however good that noise is.

When are the producers (or any so inclined owner) going to step up to the plate with some REAL numbers, dyno, G-tech, Stopwatch, counting 1-2-3. Merely anything... or is this just a case of, well, just a lot of noise.

Sorry to be the sour note here, but where is the meat?:confused:

Rotary Extreme has provided dyno results

http://www.rotaryextreme.com/rx8intakedyno.jpg

RE provided the graph but won't show us the data behind it.

From my experience with factory tuned intake systems vs. aftermarket intakes (on factory high performance cars) the aftermarket intakes give up low/mid RPM HP and torque for high RPM HP/torque.

I see no evidence of that on this RE supplied dyno chart. Also, by looking at the chart it looks like Mazda has done a very bad job in designing the intake system and I don't believe that to be the case.

I think that this intake system as represented by RE is a rip off.

It might offer some high RPM HP and torque (and intake noise) but at the expense of low/mid RPM HP/torque (my guess).

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
RE provided the graph but won't show us the data behind it.

From my experience with factory tuned intake systems vs. aftermarket intakes (on factory high performance cars) the aftermarket intakes give up low/mid RPM HP and torque for high RPM HP/torque.

I see no evidence of that on this RE supplied dyno chart. Also, by looking at the chart it looks like Mazda has done a very bad job in designing the intake system and I don't believe that to be the case.

I think that this intake system as represented by RE is a rip off.

It might offer some high RPM HP and torque (and intake noise) but at the expense of low/mid RPM HP/torque (my guess).

Vince
How odd. You have nothing to back up YOUR claim, so why should anybody listen to you? Since you don't seem to mind stating your opinion that Chuck Huang is ripping people off, then I don't mind stating that I think you are full of shit and don't have a clue what you are talking about. I don't know you from Adam, so your claims mean absolutely d*$# to me. And no, I do NOT have this intake, and am not affiliated with RE in any way. I just think it is crap for someone to attack a business owner with no supporting evidence. My suggestion would be to try to state your desires or doubts without the libelous text.

And your opinion is based on what?

I think it' odd that some people don't say much besides a firm belief in RE's intake and all that is RE.

I saw a 60 Minutes episode a few months ago that had people that worked for companies going into chat rooms and forums selling products and posing as users...

Just a thought.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
RE provided the graph but won't show us the data behind it.

From my experience with factory tuned intake systems vs. aftermarket intakes (on factory high performance cars) the aftermarket intakes give up low/mid RPM HP and torque for high RPM HP/torque.


Vince

A quick visit to the AEM web site tells a different story than what your experience has told you. I have viewed no less than 10 dyno charts for AEM intakes on a number of vehicles. All have shown both torque and HP gains at the low end and midrange as well as the high end. Maybe I should ask AEM for the 'raw data'.

Examples:

Eclipse

http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/22-433%202000-2003%20Eclipse%20GS,RS.pdf

RSX Type-S
http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/22-506%202002%20Acura%20RSX%20Type-S%20SRS.pdf

S2000-negligible loss between 2500 and 350 rpms
http://www.aempower.com/pdf/dyno/21-504%202000-2001%20Honda%20S2000%20CAS.pdf

Happy Holidays to all

All from companies trying to sell us something!

Look at independent tests from users and you will see something different.

Vince

...Sigh... here we go again.

Vince, you need to stop the attacks on Rotary Extreme in open forum. If you have issues with them, please take it up in a PM or somewhere other than this board. You have made your position clear over and over again, and I agree that people have to take any vendor's results with a grain of salt, but this has gone too far. Please consider this is your last warning.

Also, as Vince knows and many of you may be interested in, I am GOING to get my car dyno'd with and without the RE intake, but I have to wait for my oil cooler hose to be replaced before I can put that kind of stress on the car. This also means that I can not GTech-measure it either. See this thread for more info: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16968

Omicron,

Good modding, mate. Vince has a valid concern (independant results) but sadly he stepped over the line.

I'm looking forward to see your results. Interesting thread about your oil line!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Thanks Hymee... and I'll keep you all posted about the oil line.

Very valid concern but like with all cars and their products we have to wait until we see the independent tests from users before we place blame.

Okay.

Vince

Thanks Vince.

Wow. Don't know what that was all about (above), but thanks for the HP graph. It's very encouraging, and should translate into some improved times. The fact that it supplies added HP over the entire range is a real advantage.

Looking forward, the intake in combination with your (soon to avail)SS free flow exhaust (other thread), we should be looking at substantial stuff :D , even wo CZ's stage 1, and then again it looks to be the perfect mod in prep for it..... :D :D

I am off to the dyno w/RE intake today and will let you know how it goes. How come I am the only one stepping up to the plate here? Seems that everyone else is all talk and no action.
I am building my exhaust tomorrow am and will re dyno afterward to see if there are any gains. The goal here is performance without obnoxious noise. More details to follow.

Originally posted by PoMan Ferrari
I am off to the dyno w/RE intake today and will let you know how it goes.

Are you doing dyno runs without the RE intake for a baseline, then with the RE intake in place? That's the only way to tell if the RE intake is doing anything for you (sorry if I'm restating the obvious). What are you going to do about disabling the DSC/TC intervention during your dyno runs?

Thanks for the effort - it's only when independent guys like you take the time and effort to do these independent tests that we get any validation of the manufacturer's claims.

Regards,
Gordon

Excellent I'm very interested to see your results. I am planning on purchasing this after I get my CZ stage 1 mod

Originally posted by PoMan Ferrari
I am off to the dyno w/RE intake today and will let you know how it goes. How come I am the only one stepping up to the plate here? Seems that everyone else is all talk and no action.
I am building my exhaust tomorrow am and will re dyno afterward to see if there are any gains. The goal here is performance without obnoxious noise. More details to follow. Glad to hear you're doing this. But I too have planned on "stepping up to the plate" here as you put it, but developed a problem with running my car hard, and am still waiting on the part before I can go dyno it. See this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16968) for more info.

PoMan Ferrari were you able to get the car dyno tested yesterday?

where did you get the intake do you have a web site i can buy it from. Thanks

Rotary Extreme's Website (http://www.rotaryextreme.com)

Where did everyone go? New dynos anyone?

Originally posted by SDFLY
Where did everyone go? New dynos anyone?

Hmmm... either everybody really loves the sound, and doesn't care about the power; or they've hit the dynos and found no additional power and are embarrassed to admit it... ;)

Regards,
Gordon

PoMan Ferrari already did the dyno and sent me the dynosheets. The best HP gain is about the same as the one I posted. He hasn't posted them maybe because he is busy and posting the reulst is not his duty?

Omicron also tested out the intake but before he was able to change the set up to stock air box, the oil line was leaking oil so he had to stop there. He has mentioned that he had to wait until the new oil line comes in before he can do another dyno run.

If you want fast result, you can donate $200-$250 to anyone who is going to volunteer to test the intake. I am pretty sure someone is going to take your offer right away. But if you want something for free, you better be patient and stop demanding. People have other things to do. It's not like they are getting paid by you doing this.

Your logic is funny. If the intake makes no power. what prevents them from mentioning it on the board? Being embarassed for what? If people were all emabarrassed when they found out the RX8 didn't make the advertised power, why is it all over this board?

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Hmmm... either everybody really loves the sound, and doesn't care about the power; or they've hit the dynos and found no additional power and are embarrassed to admit it... ;)

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
PoMan Ferrari already did the dyno and sent me the dynosheets. The best HP gain is about the same as the one I posted. He hasn't posted them maybe because he is busy and posting the reulst is not his duty?

If you want fast result... But if you want something for free, you better be patient and stop demanding. People have other things to do. It's not like they are getting paid by you doing this.

Your logic is funny. If the intake makes no power. what prevents them from mentioning it on the board? Being embarassed for what? If people were all emabarrassed when they found out the RX8 didn't make the advertised power, why is it all over this board?

Since you quoted me, I guess I'll respond, but I'm not sure your reply was directed to me...

PoMan Ferrari volunteered to post the results here. Not duty, he offered. SDFLY was just curious as to the status of his results, that's all. I don't see anybody demanding results, certainly not me. This is a community of auto enthusiasts, however, and like all auto enthusiast communities, we benefit by sharing knowledge, facts, and data with respect to modifications and improvements. We share the results for that reason, not because someone pays us or demands it.

"Being embarrassed for what?" It's pretty common - people spend big bucks for a power-improving mod that doesn't turn out to improve the power at all. They are embarrassed because they got ripped off, and that's why they keep it quiet or play up the other aspects of the mod - "it sounds great". I'm not suggesting or insinuating that this is the case with your intake, and that's why I put the wink smilie after that - but it certainly does happen.

The only way that an enthusiast community for a specific marque or model develops a history and feel for which mods are worthwhile and which mods are less effective is by independently testing and verifying those mods, and sharing the results. The RX-8 community is young, but so far we are not seeing those independent tests being done much at all. To date, for the various intakes and exhausts, it's mostly posts about how they sound great. Once the real tests start getting posted, then the different mods and solutions from the vendors will start gaining more credibility. Right now, I am sceptical of everything and waiting patiently for the proof!

Regards,
Gordon

My post is directing toward you and no one else. Only you make all those assumptions and I am simply tired of seeing it.

Poman Ferrari volunteered but that does not mean he has the obligation to post the result right away for whatever reason. He is going to do some flow bench testing on both intake since he has the source for that.

You make it sound nice that people should share knowledge when other people spend the money to do the dyno and you just sit there getting result. Why isn't it the other way around? You spend the money to buy the parts and do the dyno so you can share with others? So if you want other people to share stuff with you for free, be patient.

$250 for an intake vs $30,000+ for the rx8. I guess buying the RX8 is a even bigger embarrassement according to your logic that everyone should keep it hush hush on the HP issue.

Trust me, if you buy a piece of crap, you will let everyone know about it. On the contrary, if you buy something that really works, 50% of the people won't even mention it. It's a known fact. If you went to business school, it should be in your text book.

You are certainly not skeptical toward the performance parts coming from your motherland. Double standard?

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Since you quoted me, I guess I'll respond, but I'm not sure your reply was directed to me...

PoMan Ferrari volunteered to post the results here. Not duty, he offered. SDFLY was just curious as to the status of his results, that's all. I don't see anybody demanding results, certainly not me. This is a community of auto enthusiasts, however, and like all auto enthusiast communities, we benefit by sharing knowledge, facts, and data with respect to modifications and improvements. We share the results for that reason, not because someone pays us or demands it.

"Being embarrassed for what?" It's pretty common - people spend big bucks for a power-improving mod that doesn't turn out to improve the power at all. They are embarrassed because they got ripped off, and that's why they keep it quiet or play up the other aspects of the mod - "it sounds great". I'm not suggesting or insinuating that this is the case with your intake, and that's why I put the wink smilie after that - but it certainly does happen.

The only way that an enthusiast community for a specific marque or model develops a history and feel for which mods are worthwhile and which mods are less effective is by independently testing and verifying those mods, and sharing the results. The RX-8 community is young, but so far we are not seeing those independent tests being done much at all. To date, for the various intakes and exhausts, it's mostly posts about how they sound great. Once the real tests start getting posted, then the different mods and solutions from the vendors will start gaining more credibility. Right now, I am sceptical of everything and waiting patiently for the proof!

Regards,
Gordon

Chuck,

You make what appears to be great stuff -- I will likely purchase your intake when it warms up a bit here in the frozen heartland.

That said ... you don't help yourself with your attitude and demeanor here on the forum. Your blunt, assertive, straight forward style is undoubtedly a strength in terms of product engineering, etc. but it creates a highly negative impression here in the online community where word choice and demeanor are essential to communication. People respect your products -- there is no need to get defensive and then attack when criticism enters the conversation.

Just a friendly bit of advice and I will waive my normal fees ;)

I guess you have missed all other posts posted by Gordan.

When someone constantly gives out false assumption on your product you are selling, you can only endure for so long. To be honest with you, I am very tired of it.

Like I said, my post was only directing to Gordan, who seems to have an agenda. I don't see him posting anything like this toward other manufacturers. I do not see his demands toward any other manufacturers.

If a criticism is valid and constructive, it's well taken. If it's based on someone's imagination, it won't be welcome.

In Gordan's case, there is no means of communication. I don't think he is trying to establish one. There are 2-3 long threads regarding the intake. Read them and you will understand why.

Thanks for your concern.

Chuck Huang



Originally posted by RXhusker
Chuck,

You make what appears to be great stuff -- I will likely purchase your intake when it warms up a bit here in the frozen heartland.

That said ... you don't help yourself with your attitude and demeanor here on the forum. Your blunt, assertive, straight forward style is undoubtedly a strength in terms of product engineering, etc. but it creates a highly negative impression here in the online community where word choice and demeanor are essential to communication. People respect your products -- there is no need to get defensive and then attack when criticism enters the conversation.

Just a friendly bit of advice and I will waive my normal fees ;)

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
I guess you have missed all other posts posted by Gordan.

When someone constantly gives out false assumption on your product you are selling, you can only endure for so long. To be honest with you, I am very tired of it.

Like I said, my post was only directing to Gordan, who seems to have an agenda. I don't see him posting anything like this toward other manufacturers. I do not see his demands toward any other manufacturers.

If a criticism is valid and constructive, it's well taken. If it's based on someone's imagination, it won't be welcome.

In Gordan's case, there is no means of communication. I don't think he is trying to establish one. There are 2-3 long threads regarding the intake. Read them and you will understand why.

Thanks for your concern.

Chuck Huang

Chuck, I think you are confusing me with Vince (by the way, it's Gordon, not Gordan). I have no agenda - I'm not demanding dyno results as you suggest several times here. I'm not in the market for an intake system anytime soon (at least 12 months away at the earliest), so the merits of your product vs. anyone elses are of strictly academic interest to me.

You don't see me posting anything similar about other vendors? For what it's worth, K&N should be taking much more offense at my posts than you, since I specifically slam their filter products. I've said absolutely nothing negative about your product, other than to suggest that validation of your HP claims lies with independent dyno testing. I am very interested to see those independent tests, because I see other respected tuners suggest that there is not as much power in an aftermarket RX-8 intake as you seem to have found. I'm not demanding anything, I'm waiting very patiently for independent results to start trickling in, for comparison tests to be conducted. I'm a mechanical engineer - I don't have an imagination when it comes to this stuff, it's standard engineering practices for evaluation!!! I'm certainly not picking on your intake mod - I've suggested the same to buyers of other intakes and also exhaust systems.

I'm not in the market now for an ECU mod, but I appreciate the openness of information disclosure that Canzoomer has had throughout his development process. He's documented step by step his test results through the entire process, explained what he was finding, and how he found it. He's also the first person to try to understand and share the secrets of dyno testing the RX-8. Some vendors, including yourself, are much more secretive about how their products make more power than the stock items they replace. That's fine, because I understand you need to protect the design from being poached, but at the same time there's only your word so far that it makes the power improvement you claim. You dyno tested your improvements, but provided no detail on how you overcame the inherent problems of dyno testing the RX-8. Canzoomer has sent test units of his ECU mod to Australia, the US, and UK, for people who have promised to test and document their results. Trust in the information/claims provided by the various vendors is based, in part, on the amount of background information and detail they share about their development and test processes. Also, if you look at the cost/hp of the various mods on the market so far, you'd find that the Canzoomer mod offers by far and away the best bang for the buck - so far, nobody else can offer 20 hp (claimed) for $500 (nor for the new price, $750).

I suspect you took more offense towards me when I posted my opinion in a bodykits thread that I felt urethane kits were superior/preferable to fiberglass kits and were worth a slight price premium. That's not a very controversial or rare opinion, I've read that all over the place as well. I'm not in the market for a bodykit either, so it's strictly based on the merits of each from an engineering standpoint (cost/benefit analysis and all that).

No means of communication? Isn't that what we're doing right here? I'm encouraging people to test and share their results for any and all power-enhancing aftermarket improvements. I'm reading many of the posts about these, especially the technical details and descriptions of how they achieve their power improvements. That's communication! Nobody has to do the testing for me as you suggest - if I ever do purchase an intake, exhaust, ECU mod, you can rest assured that I will have before/after dyno runs for my own satisfaction that I've received quantified value for my money - you won't see any "it sounds great, and my butt dyno tells me it's quicker" posts! By the time I might be interested in purchasing an intake, though, be assured that I'd be fully open to purchasing your product as much as any of your competitors (well, except K&N ;) ), to be evaluated at that time on all information available.

Sorry, Chuck, I''ve no agenda other than seeing this RX-8 community work together to get a good database of great products. I've seen it happen and participated in it with the Miata community, where any and every power mod has been subjected to many independent dyno runs, and there are no shortage of people willing to test. Sure, the Miata community is more mature at this point, but there's no harm in encouraging the RX-8 community along the same path, is there?

Regards,
Gordon

Very well put Gordon.

Hucksters and thieves are afraid of the truth and defend the lies they make viciously to protect easy profits.

Vince

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme ...Omicron also tested out the intake but before he was able to change the set up to stock air box, the oil line was leaking oil so he had to stop there. He has mentioned that he had to wait until the new oil line comes in before he can do another dyno run.I can confirm that I will indeed be finishing up my dyno testing, and posting results here.

Yo Chuck, over here...I think this is the guy you were aiming at!
:D

(sorry Vince)


Originally posted by compaddict
Very well put Gordon.

Hucksters and thieves are afraid of the truth and defend the lies they make viciously to protect easy profits.

Vince

Originally posted by compaddict
Very well put Gordon.

Hucksters and thieves are afraid of the truth and defend the lies they make viciously to protect easy profits.

Vince

You know Vince I don't have a problem with you as a member of this forum except when it comes to this thread. You are "usually" quite insightful and intelligent so why all the Chuck bashing? You go out of your way to be an ass to him and people that support him and I just don't get it. There isn't a single company out there that has to show anybody anything in terms of development. I'd love to see what new secret ideas the air foce has working right now but they probably won't tell me. If the product is proven to work then great. If it doesn't work good then fine. You know the results will get posted here. No one should expect a big or even feelable gain just by slapping anybody's intake on. Just because you can't feel it doesn't mean there isn't a gain though. Typically it takes 10% more power to be noticable and I know this isn't going to give that. However if you combine a few % here from one thing and a few % there from another a feelable worthshile gain may appear. Some things are greater than the sum of their parts. Going out of your way to insult people just doesn't get you anywhere and it really makes you look bad. The people that try something regardless of if it works good or not aren't the people that look stupid. At least they tried. It is easy to criticize others but that still doesn't make it right. Since we are fond of quoting others here: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all!" If Chuck gets proven wrong we won't need you to tell us so.

Originally posted by rotarygod
You know Vince I don't have a problem with you as a member of this forum except when it comes to this thread. You are "usually" quite insightful and intelligent so why all the Chuck bashing? You go out of your way to be an ass to him and people that support him and I just don't get it. There isn't a single company out there that has to show anybody anything in terms of development. I'd love to see what new secret ideas the air foce has working right now but they probably won't tell me. If the product is proven to work then great. If it doesn't work good then fine. You know the results will get posted here. No one should expect a big or even feelable gain just by slapping anybody's intake on. Just because you can't feel it doesn't mean there isn't a gain though. Typically it takes 10% more power to be noticable and I know this isn't going to give that. However if you combine a few % here from one thing and a few % there from another a feelable worthshile gain may appear. Some things are greater than the sum of their parts. Going out of your way to insult people just doesn't get you anywhere and it really makes you look bad. The people that try something regardless of if it works good or not aren't the people that look stupid. At least they tried. It is easy to criticize others but that still doesn't make it right. Since we are fond of quoting others here: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all!" If Chuck gets proven wrong we won't need you to tell us so.

I didn't mention any one person and I am trying not to attack anyone. It's really just my opinion of add on intake systems in general and the methods used to sell them.

One more thing, I feel that this forum is a trusted place and that any claim made here is subject to intense scrutiny by the members that make up this forum. I feel that If someone wants to sell things to us here they need to stand up to the plate.

Vince

Stand up to the plate by letting you call them thieves? Any way I look at it, it's an insult and a personal attack.

Results are coming from independent testers. You seem to be extremely patient with the Canzoomer's result. Why can't you be patient here?

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by compaddict
I didn't mention any one person and I am trying not to attack anyone. It's really just my opinion of add on intake systems in general and the methods used to sell them.

One more thing, I feel that this forum is a trusted place and that any claim made here is subject to intense scrutiny by the members that make up this forum. I feel that If someone wants to sell things to us here they need to stand up to the plate.

Vince

It would be nice if Vince can donate me money to do some dyno test. :D

I do have a rotary extreme intake.

I understand you want to see results but your speculation on why the result hasn't been posted is misleading.

I don't know why you think I am all secretive. What's so secretive about this intake? What do you need to know? Just tell me and I will post here.

On the dyno, we just strap down the car and then dyno it. If you look at the dyno sheet, you will see we dyno the stock intake first. If there is any limp mode, the first run will actually make more power. We run the car in 4th gear. We swap the intake on the dyno and then dyno the car with the Rotary Extreme intake. Canzoomer did the dyno with his own method and the result from the stock set up is actually worse the most people's result. His dynosheet already indicates the numbers are SAE corrected. So why the result is worse than normal, I don't know and I am not going to comment.

This has nothing to do your comment on the bodykit. If there is, I will post on that thread, not here. And for your info, the original Mazdaspeed boydkit is made of ABS plastic, not urethane. Urethane and ABS plastic are two different things.

Communication and speculation without basis are two different things. I have no problem with people asking for result but when you try to come up with some answers without any basis, I have a problem with that. Your comment on why I am defensive simply because of your bodykit comment on another thread is the same kind of speculation without basis.

Maybe you can go to the rx7 forum and do a search on our company. You will find we don't sell or make BS products and customers with our performance parts are extremely happy with their purchases.

Chuck Huang


Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Chuck, I think you are confusing me with Vince (by the way, it's Gordon, not Gordan). I have no agenda - I'm not demanding dyno results as you suggest several times here. I'm not in the market for an intake system anytime soon (at least 12 months away at the earliest), so the merits of your product vs. anyone elses are of strictly academic interest to me.

You don't see me posting anything similar about other vendors? For what it's worth, K&N should be taking much more offense at my posts than you, since I specifically slam their filter products. I've said absolutely nothing negative about your product, other than to suggest that validation of your HP claims lies with independent dyno testing. I am very interested to see those independent tests, because I see other respected tuners suggest that there is not as much power in an aftermarket RX-8 intake as you seem to have found. I'm not demanding anything, I'm waiting very patiently for independent results to start trickling in, for comparison tests to be conducted. I'm a mechanical engineer - I don't have an imagination when it comes to this stuff, it's standard engineering practices for evaluation!!! I'm certainly not picking on your intake mod - I've suggested the same to buyers of other intakes and also exhaust systems.

I'm not in the market now for an ECU mod, but I appreciate the openness of information disclosure that Canzoomer has had throughout his development process. He's documented step by step his test results through the entire process, explained what he was finding, and how he found it. He's also the first person to try to understand and share the secrets of dyno testing the RX-8. Some vendors, including yourself, are much more secretive about how their products make more power than the stock items they replace. That's fine, because I understand you need to protect the design from being poached, but at the same time there's only your word so far that it makes the power improvement you claim. You dyno tested your improvements, but provided no detail on how you overcame the inherent problems of dyno testing the RX-8. Canzoomer has sent test units of his ECU mod to Australia, the US, and UK, for people who have promised to test and document their results. Trust in the information/claims provided by the various vendors is based, in part, on the amount of background information and detail they share about their development and test processes. Also, if you look at the cost/hp of the various mods on the market so far, you'd find that the Canzoomer mod offers by far and away the best bang for the buck - so far, nobody else can offer 20 hp (claimed) for $500 (nor for the new price, $750).

I suspect you took more offense towards me when I posted my opinion in a bodykits thread that I felt urethane kits were superior/preferable to fiberglass kits and were worth a slight price premium. That's not a very controversial or rare opinion, I've read that all over the place as well. I'm not in the market for a bodykit either, so it's strictly based on the merits of each from an engineering standpoint (cost/benefit analysis and all that).

No means of communication? Isn't that what we're doing right here? I'm encouraging people to test and share their results for any and all power-enhancing aftermarket improvements. I'm reading many of the posts about these, especially the technical details and descriptions of how they achieve their power improvements. That's communication! Nobody has to do the testing for me as you suggest - if I ever do purchase an intake, exhaust, ECU mod, you can rest assured that I will have before/after dyno runs for my own satisfaction that I've received quantified value for my money - you won't see any "it sounds great, and my butt dyno tells me it's quicker" posts! By the time I might be interested in purchasing an intake, though, be assured that I'd be fully open to purchasing your product as much as any of your competitors (well, except K&N ;) ), to be evaluated at that time on all information available.

Sorry, Chuck, I''ve no agenda other than seeing this RX-8 community work together to get a good database of great products. I've seen it happen and participated in it with the Miata community, where any and every power mod has been subjected to many independent dyno runs, and there are no shortage of people willing to test. Sure, the Miata community is more mature at this point, but there's no harm in encouraging the RX-8 community along the same path, is there?

Regards,
Gordon

All the results are provided by PoMan Ferrari.

Downlaod the attachement.

Run 2 is stock air box

Run 4 is stock air box without the filter in place

run 12 is with the Rotary Extreme intake with the back heatshield but without the top cover

run 13 is with the Rotary Extreme intake with the back heat shield and top cover

run 14 is with the Rotary Extreme intake with the back heat shield and top cover

The top cover seems to serve as a restriction on the dyno. The same result was indicated by Omicron. When the car is actually moving, the moving air should overcome that.

When we did our dyno runs, the top cover was not installed and result was similar with Poman Ferrari's.

Chuck Huang

Run 15 is stock air box with an aftermarket cat-back exhaust which I don't want to name.

Run 17 is rotary extreme intake with the same aftermarket cat-back exhaust

Chuck Huang

If you want more result from independent testers, please be patient when Omicron's car is back on the road.

Poman Ferrari is also going to flow bench testing both the stock intake and the Rotary Extreme intake so we will have some real numbers. I hope everyone will be happy and we can put this to an end.

Chuck Huang

Questions: are run 2, 4, 12, 13, and 14 with the aftermarket exhaust too? And, is run 17 with the rotary extreme intake heat shield cover open?

Run 2, 4, 12, 13, 14 are with stock exhaust.

Poman Ferrari didn't say anything about taking off the top cover for run 17. He is extremely busy now. I have a hard time getting hold of him. When I do get a hold of him, I will ask him about the run 17.

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by donald121
Questions: are run 2, 4, 12, 13, and 14 with the aftermarket exhaust too? And, is run 17 with the rotary extreme intake heat shield cover open?

Looks good to me Chuck!

Thanks. :)

BTW, there will be a base model 238 HP rx8 coming in so we can dyno test the intake on that car. That car has no DSC so maybe we can get more accurate result without worrying about DSC triggering the limp mode if there is one. We will dyno test the Rotary Extreme cat-back exhaust on that car as well.

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by rotarygod
Looks good to me Chuck!

To make this whole thing more fun, I have the following offer. If you have a Rotary Extreme intake and you are able to put your car on the dyno to get some result, I will give you $50 toward your dyno run or $100 credit if you purchase anything that's retailed for $500+ from our website.

If you don't have a Rotary Extreme intake to dyno but you have some other performance products that you want to dyno, no free dyno money but if you can provide the dyno result for that product, you will receive $100 credit if you purchase anything that's retailed for $500+ from our website.

Only 10 spots will be available. Customers with rotary extreme intakes will have the priority.

Please email rotaryextreme@aol.com for details. Thank you.

Chuck Huang
http://www.rotaryextreme.com

That's a nice thing to do Chuck.

Vince

Little off topic. But...

I do not currently own any Rotary Extreme product. However, I did have the opportunity to deal with Chuck. All I can say is that not only is Chuck's customer service top notch and he is willing to stand behind his product, he is also very willing to share his knowledge.

Nice offer about supporting the dyno testing, Chuck. The more tests conducted and shared, the more confidence can be built.

I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to discuss Poman's results that you posted - a general discussion, not just with you, but I'd invite all to comment on them. Here's my thoughts:

On the first set, Run 2 stock, Run 4 no filter, there's a bobble in the power and torque curves of Run 2 around 8K rpm that looks like an ECU pulling fuel/timing - like we've been told the safe/limp mode does - but still, if we accept that as a valid stock run, 185.7 hp and 139.2 lb-ft torque. Removing the filter makes 6.6 hp more for 192.3 - Again, I'm sceptical about Run 2, since the torque and hp curves vs. Run 4 are overlain perfectly until the bobble at 7.5K.

Second set of curves, with the RE intake, the very best run gave 193.3, or 7.6 hp increase at peak, but 3 lb-ft less torque than stock. In other words, it lost power over stock until revs were beyond 8K rpm. The other two RE intake runs make about the same peak power as stock (less power anywhere below 8K rpm, and less peak torque).

Third set of curves, run 15 stock airbox with aftermarket exhaust Poman built himself (I am assuming that the aftermarket exhaust used is the one Poman documented having built in earlier threads) pretty much equal power to stock run - up 2.8 hp, down 2.3 lb-ft torque. For Run 17, add in the RE Intake to the aftermarket exhaust, and he's lost 1.1 hp peak and 0.7 lb-ft torque!!

So, Poman Ferrari has this intake and an aftermarket exhaust on his RX-8, and it makes exactly the same power it did stock. If his "stock" dyno run (Run2) was more representative (ie without the safe mode bobble at 7.5K), then he's probably actually lost power from these mods! Am I misinterpreting these results somehow?

The runs also point out the inaccuracy of the butt-dyno impressions that everyone mentions when they install mods, since Poman himself claimed in
this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=171539#post171539) "Mid range and top end are vastly better. I will do back to back dyno work early next week to confirm what the butt dyno is telling me." Yet, the dyno tests confirm the opposite - that mid-range was no stronger on any of the runs, and only at very peak revs was there a maximum of 7.6 hp improvement, and a minimum of no power improvement.

Again, to be clear - I'm strictly looking at the data from the dyno runs by Poman and discussing those results, no insinuations or accusations being made. I appreciate Poman making this data available for the community's benefit.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
I don't know why you think I am all secretive. What's so secretive about this intake? What do you need to know? Just tell me and I will post here.

Chuck, I just want to address this point - I did suggest that you were keeping secrets in protecting the design of your products. That suggestion was based on this post of yours in the RE Exhaust thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=201381#post201381) , where you said Ram air intake is still at the development stage. There are a few issues that need to be addressed. I can't reveal too much but I can tell you that the stock intake system is not a ram air one as thought by some people.

In several places in that thread, you state that you know details that you are not willing to share about the intake design. Thus, my conclusion. That's not speculation, it's a fair conclusion based on your pretty clear statements.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by RX Guy
Little off topic. But...

I do not currently own any Rotary Extreme product. However, I did have the opportunity to deal with Chuck. All I can say is that not only is Chuck's customer service top notch and he is willing to stand behind his product, he is also very willing to share his knowledge.

And his offer to pay $50 for dynos of the intake is proof of how much he stands behind his products.

Chuck, I applaud your efforts. The dynos are looking good at first glance.


Just caught Gordon's comments and will try to take a closer look at the dynos soon....

Gordon,

Nice summary of the dyno runs.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Gordon:

1. The bobble is there on every runs. The bobble is caused by ECU running in closed loop trying to keep the target a/f oreset by the ECU. The same kind of oscillation you on a/f meter when you are cruising. You smooth out that bobble by using the dynoview's smoothing function. Maybe PoMan set the smoothing at 0.

2. What's skeptical about run 2? I don't get your question. For this one, you can do it yourself without buying any kind of aftermarket intake as I have mentioned many times already. If you are skeptical, you can put your car on the dyno to see if you see the same result.

3. Maybe you have a super keen eye. I don't know how you can see the mods only makes more power than stock above 8000 rpm with graphs from different pages. I will wait until PoMan Ferrari to provide the comparision dynos on the same sheet or some raw data. The only thing I got are those bmp sheets.

4. How did you conclude that with RE intake and cat-back exhaust, the car lost HP? It made 194.6 HP. Maybe you read it wrong?

5. If you know how to read dyno sheet, you will see from my own dyno sheet, the intake makes noticeable power above 6000 rpm. Super mid-range gain was never mentioned and the intake was never advertised in such way. Anything from 6000-9000 rpm are usable HP.

6. The dyno sheets were posted just to show there are definitely ways to improve the intake system and the intake does make more power than stock. If you want to argue about how much HP gain is there, maybe you should gather 1000 dynosheets from different rx8's and average them out to get the most accurate result. I don't have the finance to do that. I am already doing the best I can. My $50-60 profit per intake is not enough finance the dyno project to the very pin point. I might as well stop selling it and forget about the whole thing.

Since you are very interested in dyno results, can you contribute and share? I really don't understand why you don't put your car on the dyno and do the tests yourself?

Chuck Huang



Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Nice offer about supporting the dyno testing, Chuck. The more tests conducted and shared, the more confidence can be built.

I hope you don't mind, but I'd like to discuss Poman's results that you posted - a general discussion, not just with you, but I'd invite all to comment on them. Here's my thoughts:

On the first set, Run 2 stock, Run 4 no filter, there's a bobble in the power and torque curves of Run 2 around 8K rpm that looks like an ECU pulling fuel/timing - like we've been told the safe/limp mode does - but still, if we accept that as a valid stock run, 185.7 hp and 139.2 lb-ft torque. Removing the filter makes 6.6 hp more for 192.3 - Again, I'm sceptical about Run 2, since the torque and hp curves vs. Run 4 are overlain perfectly until the bobble at 7.5K.

Second set of curves, with the RE intake, the very best run gave 193.3, or 7.6 hp increase at peak, but 3 lb-ft less torque than stock. In other words, it lost power over stock until revs were beyond 8K rpm. The other two RE intake runs make about the same peak power as stock (less power anywhere below 8K rpm, and less peak torque).

Third set of curves, run 15 stock airbox with aftermarket exhaust Poman built himself (I am assuming that the aftermarket exhaust used is the one Poman documented having built in earlier threads) pretty much equal power to stock run - up 2.8 hp, down 2.3 lb-ft torque. For Run 17, add in the RE Intake to the aftermarket exhaust, and he's lost 1.1 hp peak and 0.7 lb-ft torque!!

So, Poman Ferrari has this intake and an aftermarket exhaust on his RX-8, and it makes exactly the same power it did stock. If his "stock" dyno run (Run2) was more representative (ie without the safe mode bobble at 7.5K), then he's probably actually lost power from these mods! Am I misinterpreting these results somehow?

The runs also point out the inaccuracy of the butt-dyno impressions that everyone mentions when they install mods, since Poman himself claimed in
this thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=171539#post171539) "Mid range and top end are vastly better. I will do back to back dyno work early next week to confirm what the butt dyno is telling me." Yet, the dyno tests confirm the opposite - that mid-range was no stronger on any of the runs, and only at very peak revs was there a maximum of 7.6 hp improvement, and a minimum of no power improvement.

Again, to be clear - I'm strictly looking at the data from the dyno runs by Poman and discussing those results, no insinuations or accusations being made. I appreciate Poman making this data available for the community's benefit.

Regards,
Gordon

We are talking about the Short Arm Intake here. It's already out and there is no secret. You don't even need to buy one. YOu can see the design on the net because I have installation instruction posted, step by step. If you have the means of manufacturing, you can copy my design without buying one!

RAM air is a total different design. Tell me one company that's stupid enough to give away their R&D in public when their product is not released yet, especially when that info is the key to success of finishing the product.

Chuck Huang

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Chuck, I just want to address this point - I did suggest that you were keeping secrets in protecting the design of your products. That suggestion was based on this post of yours in the RE Exhaust thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=201381#post201381) , where you said

In several places in that thread, you state that you know details that you are not willing to share about the intake design. Thus, my conclusion. That's not speculation, it's a fair conclusion based on your pretty clear statements.

Regards,
Gordon

Sigh...

How is it nice if his summary has mistake?

Chuck Huang



Originally posted by Hymee
Gordon,

Nice summary of the dyno runs.

Cheers,
Hymee.

This the reason why I want to get 10 dyno sheets from different cars and summarize the result.

Remember every car will have some variation. Even with the same car, you will see different dyno results on different days. Variation within 1% can be expectged. There is also uncertainty. An engineer like Gordon should know something about this. As long as the HP difference is within 1-2 HP, it can be accounted for as error or uncertainty. But 6-8 HP is defintely not coming from uncertainty or error.

From a statistic point of view, more is better but I simply don't make enough on the intake to support 1000 dyno's. I don't even think there is another company that will give money to their customers to do dynos to prove their product. This is a risky thing to do. How about if the customer didn't install the product correctly? How about there is mechanical problem with the car? Many things can go wrong to give inaccurate result but I am willing to step up and offer this. Why? Because our company don't sell BS performance parts. Our dyno sheet is real. There is nothing to hide.

I am doing the best I can and if pepole still want to prove me wrong for the sole reason of proving me wrong, I feel I am just wasting my time and money here.

Chuck Huang


Originally posted by Japan8
And his offer to pay $50 for dynos of the intake is proof of how much he stands behind his products.

Chuck, I applaud your efforts. The dynos are looking good at first glance.


Just caught Gordon's comments and will try to take a closer look at the dynos soon....

Gordon:

If you are very keen at the torque number, you forgot a very important concept. It's the HP that makes your car accelerate, not the torque. A mechanical engineer should know about this.

You should also compare area under the curve. As long as the area under the curve of usable hp is more than stock, your car will accelerate faster.

Your car will be faster if your usable HP is more. If you are racing, your usable HP band will be from 6000-9000 rpm. I doubt the people who buy the intake will shift at merely 6000 rpm. So when you need the extra power, you will feel it.

Unless the stock intake is really bad, it's not possible to improve the low end or mid range drastically by simply putting on an aftermarket intake. Higher rpm requires higher air mass/ time and that's when a higher flow intake system makes the difference.

Chuck Huang

Now that's funny..

Chuck wanting to see the raw data from a dyno run!

Sometimes it's the little things that make me smile.

Vince

I hate to ask..

The raw data would be nice!

Like Chuck said, it's hard to see the influences and correlations with the pictures.

Vince

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
Gordon:

1. The bobble is there on every runs. The bobble is caused by ECU running in closed loop trying to keep the target a/f oreset by the ECU. The same kind of oscillation you on a/f meter when you are cruising. You smooth out that bobble by using the dynoview's smoothing function. Maybe PoMan set the smoothing at 0.

The Run2 drop at 7.5k-8K seems unique compared to Run4 or any of his other runs. I would assume that Poman's runs would have the smoothing function set the same for each run? There have been other dyno runs of stock RX-8s posted which show a similar effect, and it's been attributed to the safe/limp mode. My comment was that given that Run2 and Run4 look identical up until that point, it looked to me that Run2 has an anomoly and might not be representative of a good un-modified dyno pull.

2. What's skeptical about run 2? I don't get your question. For this one, you can do it yourself without buying any kind of aftermarket intake as I have mentioned many times already. If you are skeptical, you can put your car on the dyno to see if you see the same result.

As mentioned above - only the presence of that bobble at 7.5K rpm, which wasn't present in any of Poman's other runs. Compared to other RX-8 dyno runs that have been posted as well of a purely stock config.

3. Maybe you have a super keen eye. I don't know how you can see the mods only makes more power than stock above 8000 rpm with graphs from different pages. I will wait until PoMan Ferrari to provide the comparision dynos on the same sheet or some raw data. The only thing I got are those bmp sheets.

The torque peak is around 5.5K to 6K rpm. On those runs, if the peak torque is lower, by necessity the HP is lower. Up until the torque peak, the HP is in fact lower - somewhere between 6K rpm and the HP peak, the torque and thus HP increased over the stock runs, but not below.


4. How did you conclude that with RE intake and cat-back exhaust, the car lost HP? It made 194.6 HP. Maybe you read it wrong?

You're right - the bmp format of the dyno graph for that run prints the max power number right over the dotted line - I read it as 184.6, it is 194.6. My apologies, I guess my eyes aren't that keen! ;)

5. If you know how to read dyno sheet, you will see from my own dyno sheet, the intake makes noticeable power above 6000 rpm. Super mid-range gain was never mentioned and the intake was never advertised in such way. Anything from 6000-9000 rpm are usable HP.

That makes perfect sense, and I have no argument there. I was only commenting on Poman's assertion that mid-range was vastly improved, and pointing out the unreliability of butt-dyno impressions.

6. The dyno sheets were posted just to show there are definitely ways to improve the intake system and the intake does make more power than stock. If you want to argue about how much HP gain is there, maybe you should gather 1000 dynosheets from different rx8's and average them out to get the most accurate result. I don't have the finance to do that. I am already doing the best I can. My $50-60 profit per intake is not enough finance the dyno project to the very pin point. I might as well stop selling it and forget about the whole thing.

I don't expect you to finance purchaser's dyno runs! I would think that the purchaser's making this and other modifications would want to do these themselves to quantify their gains for the various mods, exactly as Poman did.

Since you are very interested in dyno results, can you contribute and share? I really don't understand why you don't put your car on the dyno and do the tests yourself?

I've already posted that if and when I do decide to do any powertrain mods, I will do before and after dyno tests.

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
This the reason why I want to get 10 dyno sheets from different cars and summarize the result.

Remember every car will have some variation. Even with the same car, you will see different dyno results on different days. Variation within 1% can be expectged. There is also uncertainty. An engineer like Gordon should know something about this. As long as the HP difference is within 1-2 HP, it can be accounted for as error or uncertainty. But 6-8 HP is defintely not coming from uncertainty or error.

From a statistic point of view, more is better but I simply don't make enough on the intake to support 1000 dyno's. I don't even think there is another company that will give money to their customers to do dynos to prove their product.

I am doing the best I can and if pepole still want to prove me wrong for the sole reason of proving me wrong, I feel I am just wasting my time and money here.

I agree fully (and do know about uncertainty and variations ;) ). That's why I've been encouraging the buyers of any and all performance products to get their own testing done and shared, because more is better and everyone benefits. I also agree (again) that your offer to subsidise dyno testing is to be applauded, because it's not your responsibility to be funding the testing that the community here needs for their own benefit.

Originally posted by Rotary Extreme
If you are very keen at the torque number, you forgot a very important concept. It's the HP that makes your car accelerate, not the torque. A mechanical engineer should know about this.

You should also compare area under the curve. As long as the area under the curve of usable hp is more than stock, your car will accelerate faster.

Don't worry, I do know about the relationships between HP and torque. :) The only reason I mentioned torque is because the peak occurs at a lower rpm than the HP peak, so (because of the fixed relationship between hp and torque) it's valid to infer that if between two dyno plots the torque is lower at 5.5K rpm on plot B compared to plot A, it necessitates that the HP is also lower at 5.5K rpm for plot B compared to plot A. Which leads to area under the curve as you describe, and the conclusion that the power improvement is solely above 6K rpm.

I'd also agree with your conclusion that it's very hard to improve on a good factory intake at low and mid-range rpms - however, with many aftermarket intakes for other cars *cough*honda*cough*, it's very easy to lose power in those ranges. It's reassuring to see independent confirmation that very little or no power is lost in those ranges with your intake.

Regards,
Gordon

Omicron, did you ever post a sound clip of your RE intake with the Borla exhaust? This is the combination I am considering and would like to hear the results.

a bit of a side step here...
i installed my RE intake today...chuck heard my concerns about noise before purchase and offered return if i was unsatisfied. a straight shooter it seems to me.
but my question to anyone who has this intake...is anyone experiencing hesitations at around 41 or 4200 rpm while accelerating? i am experiencing this and dont know if it is from more turbulence or a vacume issue or simply an expected side effect.
rudy

Originally posted by God of Thunder
Omicron, did you ever post a sound clip of your RE intake with the Borla exhaust? This is the combination I am considering and would like to hear the results. Actually, I had never planned on posting audio results of my mods. What I do plan on doing and posting though is dyno results of my mods. Tried to do it this weekend, but the shop wasn't available. Will try again next weekend.

Omicron,

Did you manage to get to the shop to Dyno your car?

Anyway-

I have a Uk spec car that I have dyno'd in standard form on two different machines.

The first was a 'water' dyno and showed 179 RWHP.

The second was a more modern approach, and the print out is below: Max power on a standard UK 8 = 181.7.

I am in the process of arranging an intake, full exhaust with cat removal and CZ stage 2 hopefuly.

As normal, will post as soon as we know.


Ant.

omicron,
i also istalled insulation in my RE intake and it toned it down nicely without losing nice sound of the product. did you insulate the whole inside of the box or just under the top?
rudy

hei Chuck,
i've got a RE intake, i bought it from a friend of mine. Now just curios how much for me just to buy the intake element alone? Cos if i wash more then 20 times the filter is shot. i read it from K&N site.thanks.


yudy

omicron,
i also istalled insulation in my RE intake and it toned it down nicely without losing nice sound of the product. did you insulate the whole inside of the box or just under the top?
rudySorry Rudy, somehow I missed this question till the thread got revived today! Anyway, I insulated the inside of both the back plate and the top plate, but nothing else.

Omicron,

Did you manage to get to the shop to Dyno your car?

Nope, never did, and I have since removed and sold my RE intake... not because I didn't like it - I did - but because I removed it in preparation for forced induction. :D