That was far, far better a review than I could have imagined.:)

JC really liked it and the Stig got the same time as the M3 and the 350Z on their track.

Fantastic:D

"The best car I have driven this year"
"A seriously seriously good car"

Same time as the M3 and 350Z - but with far more fun! :D

Same time as the M3 and 350Z round the track! I'm absolutely gobsmacked! The handling really must be sensational given the power difference (I know the handling feels great to me but I'm not exactly the Stig).

Did anyone notice that this is the same car that Autocar tested. They reckoned it did 0-60 in 7.1 seconds and didn't handle particularly well. Well clearly they are very very wrong indeed about at least one of those points if it can keep up with an M3.

Superb review overall. How many million people watch this programme? If I was a Mazda salesman I would be having a large celebratory drink right about now.

Did you see how stig checked it about though; oversteer, understeer - I didn't think it was going to say on - but what a result. :D
Made it on to the cool section of the cool wall too :D

but I'm going to cancel my order and get an old Toyota pickup!

Got to be one of the best reviews ever on Top Gear!!

Mazda salesmen all across the country will have been creaming themselves!!

ROLL ON NEXT WEEK I want one while people can still remember that review!!!!

England win the World Cup, Clarkson says it's the best car he's driven this year, ...sorry, it's the doorbell back in a sec


... guys I'll have to go, Kylie and Britney have turned up pissed and are demanding a threesome.

Ricardo, no Kirsten Scott Thomas in the background?:p


AnilS.

Ricardo,

Tell them you are to busy, you are just about to go out for a ride in the RX-8.:p :D :p

Originally posted by Topic
Ricardo,

Tell them you are to busy, you are just about to go out for a ride in the RX-8.:p :D :p

Sod that! Ask them if they have a mate the RX8 seats 4!!!!!!!!!!!!:D

..Sorry I forgot to mention that KST was already in my hottub. Just look at the little minx, she's really enjoying herself...

What is the real world then?
It is a tad twitchy when its wet, as is any rear drive car. Nothing scary though - and he didnt mention whether that was with or without DSC.
In all the posts I've read, USA, Australia, etc I havent seen any reports of anyone losing one in a big way, unless you can point one out.

Originally posted by Tivoli
Do you really think Clarkson knows anything about cars? The RX8 is good but its not an M3 and its not a 350Z which were both mentioned as having the same lap times, in the real world both of those cars would destroy the RX8. However as a cheap and practical sporting car the RX8 is great, thats why I like it. The poor fuel economy and potential depreciation are still a worry though. How are you guys finding the wet weather handling, Clarkson changed his mind about the RX8 being great when he drove it in the wet, said it was very twitchy.

Well, 0-60 and 1/4 mile drag isn't exactly real world either... and yes, in that case the M3 or 350z will win, but the fact that it did equally well as those cars on the track points to the fact that the handling is VERY good, and so it will be good in the real world... possibly better than the 350z in parts of the real world with lots of bends... but not so good in places where there are lots of streight roads and traffic lights... The car is not great from a standstill, but it comes into it's own when it's rolling.

Originally posted by Tivoli
Do you really think Clarkson knows anything about cars? The RX8 is good but its not an M3 and its not a 350Z which were both mentioned as having the same lap times, in the real world both of those cars would destroy the RX8. However as a cheap and practical sporting car the RX8 is great, thats why I like it. The poor fuel economy and potential depreciation are still a worry though. How are you guys finding the wet weather handling, Clarkson changed his mind about the RX8 being great when he drove it in the wet, said it was very twitchy.

Congratulations Tivoli, you are the winner for the November 'stupid reply to a thread' award. Clarkson did not say the RX8 was an M3 or a 350Z, just that it did the same time...

Great! :)

Guys,

Just thought I would pop over from the 350Z forum -

350Z UK (http://www.350zuk.com)

We too are amazed at the review of the RX8 - congrats guys. Wont give you all the conspiracy theories we have come up with yet - but the lap time was damn impressive given the power/weight defecit compared to the M3 or 350Z.

Clarkson has a bit of form with the 350Z - Nissan declined to invite him to the UK press launch.

I wont go into the which is quicker round a track - but the fact that either can match an M3 despite one being down over 100bhp and the other down over 60bhp is pretty impressive.

Fortunately im in a good situation - my wife is ordering an RX8 to replace her TT so I get the best of both worlds !!

Look forward to having a run with an RX8 on the roads !! :D

RickB

More importantly - why is my profile calling me Billybadass2003 - when I called it RickB ????

Originally posted by billybadass2003
Guys,

Just thought I would pop over from the 350Z forum -

350Z UK (http://www.350zuk.com)

We too are amazed at the review of the RX8 - congrats guys. Wont give you all the conspiracy theories we have come up with yet - but the lap time was damn impressive given the power/weight defecit compared to the M3 or 350Z.

Clarkson has a bit of form with the 350Z - Nissan declined to invite him to the UK press launch.

I wont go into the which is quicker round a track - but the fact that either can match an M3 despite one being down over 100bhp and the other down over 60bhp is pretty impressive.

Fortunately im in a good situation - my wife is ordering an RX8 to replace her TT so I get the best of both worlds !!

Look forward to having a run with an RX8 on the roads !! :D

RickB

More importantly - why is my profile calling me Billybadass2003 - when I called it RickB ????

Hi Rick

Welcome to the forum mate. Nice to see you over here instead of me over there!
Which is quicker round a track? I suppose it depends on the track - lots of straights and the 350Z will win hands down. Lots of twists and the RX8's well balanced handing will probably win the day.

Still, who cares when you can give an M3 costing almost £20K more a run for it's money. :D

And you're a lucky bugger having access to both cars :mad:

You'll have to clear your cookies to get your user name sorted.

Enjoy your Z and your wifes 8.

Originally posted by BlueAdept
Well, 0-60 and 1/4 mile drag isn't exactly real world either... and yes, in that case the M3 or 350z will win, but the fact that it did equally well as those cars on the track points to the fact that the handling is VERY good, and so it will be good in the real world... possibly better than the 350z in parts of the real world with lots of bends... but not so good in places where there are lots of streight roads and traffic lights... The car is not great from a standstill, but it comes into it's own when it's rolling.

On the very real roads in Australia, the RX8s supple suspension keeps it on track round corners that would throw most cars (and specifically the stiff z) off line.

The wide rev range and the balance of the car can confuse you a little, at first you think something doesn't quite feel right - then you realise it's just the fact that the car is that good!

Kev,

The Euro 350Z has a different suspension setup to US, JDM or Australian cars - its much more supple.

Unfortunately Clarkson is still basing his opinion of the Z on his test drive of a Japanese car back in January (which is when the original footage of him in the Z was shot - not the summer when it was shown on the program).

Have a test drive of the Z - I think you will be very impressed !! I have test driven the RX8 and I thought it was a great car - didn't have the same go as the Z - but felt far better than the TT I also have !!

Handling is one of those weird discussions that could go on for a while - Topgear magazine prefers the Z over the RX8 - so its a bit weird that Clarkson prefers the 8 over the Z. Could be something to do with trying to get on the order list for the Ford GT ????

:D Conspiracy theories - dont you just love them !!!

RickB

Originally posted by Tivoli
Do you really think Clarkson knows anything about cars? The RX8 is good but its not an M3 and its not a 350Z which were both mentioned as having the same lap times, in the real world both of those cars would destroy the RX8. However as a cheap and practical sporting car the RX8 is great, thats why I like it. The poor fuel economy and potential depreciation are still a worry though. How are you guys finding the wet weather handling, Clarkson changed his mind about the RX8 being great when he drove it in the wet, said it was very twitchy.

No-one is saying this will beat an M3 in performance, it does however show the positive handling of the RX8. As for the twitchy wet weather handling (rear wheel drive, 230 bhp car, no surprise) he said was down to the tyres.

Murphy,

Thanks for the greeting !!

Its nice to pop over here for a while - you know mix with the enemy for a while ;)

Hopefully im now posting under the right name !!

Anyway - the 350ZUK group would like to extend an invitation to a group meeting

RX8 invite thread (http://www.350zuk.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=872&st=45)

Be great to see the 350Z and RX8 together - we could go looking for M3's !!! :D

RickB

Call me crazy, but couldn't it be as simple as the fact that different drivers drive differently. Hence it's possible one driver can drive car 1 much faster than car 2, despite car 2 being better than car 1 in certain respects.

Don't forget that the 8 was built with a different purpose, which makes the 8 much more impressive in my view, even if the times were biased.

Rabinabo,

Based on US magazine tests - the 350Z is indeed as quick or quicker than an M3 round a race track (see Road and Track magazine). Its the times for the RX8 that are very impressive. I guess we wont know for sure how the RX8 was that quick - but its still impressive for a 1.3 ;)

RickB

Originally posted by Tivoli
Do you really think Clarkson knows anything about cars? The RX8 is good but its not an M3 and its not a 350Z which were both mentioned as having the same lap times, in the real world both of those cars would destroy the RX8. However as a cheap and practical sporting car the RX8 is great, thats why I like it. The poor fuel economy and potential depreciation are still a worry though. How are you guys finding the wet weather handling, Clarkson changed his mind about the RX8 being great when he drove it in the wet, said it was very twitchy.
Well, Clarkson has driven a lot more cars than I have. Sometimes he dismisses cars for no good reason (like his comments on the Z which I'm sure is an excellent car) but if he say's that he really really likes a car then I will pay attention.

I actually don't believe that the 8 is as fast as an M3 around any track - with a deficit of over 100 hp that's just not credible and I can only assume it must have been a little damp when they clocked up the M3's time. But it did equal the Z on a dry track and we know that the Z has much beter power to weight ratio, so the 8's cornering ability must be quite something - definitely a consideration in the "real world".

Looking at Top Gear's other track times, the 8 is also half a second faster than the Focus RS which is a superb track car, and only half a second slower than the VX220 turbo.

http://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=347&start=20

we're meeting up on December 2nd with the 350z guys!

more details on the RX8 owners club site....

Originally posted by renegade_si
http://www.rx8ownersclub.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=347&start=20

we're meeting up on December 2nd with the 350z guys!

more details on the RX8 owners club site....

Stone him (or at least let his tyres down), he's been fratanising with the enemy:D :p

...at least I didn't say I preferred the sound of the 350Z on their site

:)

he he.....

tut! bloomin clarkson!!!

wish he'd said the rx8 was a pile of poo and maybe change his mind in 3yrs time when i come to sell mine.


i wanted a car people dont see too much on the road, ask what it is, blah, blah...., not be compared to other cars in it's class (tho the rx8 doesnt have any direct competition), just hope this car doesnt get the image of the TT or subaru or M3. not sure about the nissan as its damn ugly imho.


comon Mazda, hurry up with me car!!! there's valuable head turning time passing!!


i can hear more n more people whisperin, "oooh it's an rx8.... we've seen that on telly......"

hope the above conveys me feelins.


3 cars can go round a track in the same time? errrr who cares?

Originally posted by RX8BoiUK
3 cars can go round a track in the same time? errrr who cares?

Its very nice to know that the RX8 which could be written off by some as a jack of all trades, can match BMW's legendary engineering on a model costing twice as much, and Nissans supposedly no compromises two seater, and be nicer to drive.

Even if you never experiance the full potential of the RX8 (and if it means driving like the Stig did, not many will) is good to know its got the cohones where counts. :D

Cheers
---Dave

not sure i agree.

the track and the queen's highway are completely different places.

you can always find a track where one car is better than another. and even then, if u want to stage a race you can make any car win by fixin the number of laps.

there is no car directly comparable to the rx8 so can't we stop tryin to?

the car is gr8 for the money, just please dont go tellin every1 or its gonna become mainstream fast. i aint no muggle :-)

Originally posted by RX8BoiUK
not sure i agree.

the track and the queen's highway are completely different places.

you can always find a track where one car is better than another. and even then, if u want to stage a race you can make any car win by fixin the number of laps.
If we were arguing about half a second over a civic Type-R then I would agree with you, but if it can tie with a 350Z on any sensible track, given the power to weight deficit I think that says something pretty major about the cornering, and you will see some of the effects of that on the road.


the car is gr8 for the money, just please dont go tellin every1 or its gonna become mainstream fast. i aint no muggle :-)
Don't worry. Mazda can't make more than 60,000 RX-8's a year, that's their factory capacity for this model (I think about 3000 a year are destined for the UK). And they are already selling at that rate. Any extra demand just extends waiting lists and improves residuals.

yup, da clues are in my posts :-)

I know I've made the right choice. Will quietly let everyone else realise that.

cmon mazda, hurry up with that car!!

Originally posted by ChrisW


Looking at Top Gear's other track times, the 8 is also half a second faster than the Focus RS which is a superb track car, and only half a second slower than the VX220 turbo.


and 0.7 seconds faster than a lotus esprit V8!!

Guys,

I would step back from believing the topgear hype if I where you.

The 350Z tested was either a slower JDM car (with old stig) or a UK car in the wet for starters.

Secondly - the new stig is considerably faster than the old stig - look at the Lamborghini Murcielago times a couple of weeks ago.

I wont even mention that Clarkson is trying to get on to the order books for a Ford car that is already sold out....whoops.

More importantly though - the RX8 is too softly sprung for track work - its more suited to fast road use - Clarkson lied to you guys !!

RickB

RickB less of the excuses, if the 350Z ran in the wet, they would have side so, as they have done for every other car.

The 350Z might have been a JDM model as they had it in quite a while ago. But JDM spec cars normally have higher power - is this not the case for the Nissan?

The JDM RX8 has 248bhp compared to the UK model's 228bhp (US & AUS 238bhp). And before you run off to the 350Z formum claiming another consiparcy about it being a JDM RX8 - it wasn't.

Cheers
---Dave

Druck - the only day they had the UK Z for was raining all day - last wednesday, so the only time they had a 350Z in the dry was last January and it was a JDM model.

The JDM model (as tested in Australia is a mid 6 second 0-60 car) and it has the old suspension.

Many of us have driven the JDM car and its not as quick as the European or US car.

The time set by the Mazda was definately a UK car - no quibble with that at all.

RickB

Oh and why is the 350Z the only car with a time posted on the wall that we have not seen any footage of ? Because it was the Japanese car and that was lent to them on the understanding that it wouldn't be used as a demonstration of the european car.

RickB

I could sit back and feel smug that my RX8 is a fast car, as fast as an M3 and as fast as a 350Z according to Top Gear but I would be lying to myself. I find it very hard to believe that the RX8 is that quick, I've had a few cars recently in the same ball park speed (on paper). I was not expecting it to get anywhere near the time they recorded for the R32 that I had previously, on the Top Gear track (1.33, I think) nevermind the M3 time. Remember the Autocar test, 0 - 100 in around 18 seconds, what does the M3 do it in? approx 11 seconds. They maybe a little out but surely not that much, and the handling can't be that bad on the M3 either.

I like my RX8 for what it is, a contempory, practical, comfortable sports coupe with a good amount of toys for the money, but its not that fast.

BTW, I'm not sticking up for anyone else, just my own beliefs and my own experiences.:)

still comparing the rx8 to cars that arent directly comparable?

tho, when it comes to trade in time in 3yrs the rx8 will be up against the nissan and bmw and tt.

whats gonna have lost the least?

Can anyone tell me how a 0-100mph figure is remotely relavent except at the ome 1/4 drag stip in this country at Santa Pod. If that was all that counted, I'd be driving a top fuel dragster.

Racing away from lights probably isn't even getting up to 60 on UK roads, and in urban areas thats for wankers not wankels, any way.

There are two real tests of the car in every day driving. Over taking on the motorway, with the 70-90 figure probably being the most appropriate. I'd expect the M3 to absolutely walk away from the RX8 unless he was asleep in top, and the RX8 dropped down to 3rd.

The other test being cornering ability (nice quiet open roads only of course), where the more nible RX8 should be able to hold its own against the more heavy but more powerful M3 - up to a point - dont drive it like the Stig unless you are on a track.

Cheers
---Dave

Gentlemen, if you havent downloaded JC's RX-8 segment you can get it at the website below.

http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=3040&referrerid=1

;)

I saw a post some time ago which probably defines the 8 the best by saying that it is not the best at anything but as a sum of the whole is the best car in a very broad class on the market.

rael

Originally posted by RickB
Guys,

I would step back from believing the topgear hype if I where you.

The 350Z tested was either a slower JDM car (with old stig) or a UK car in the wet for starters.

Secondly - the new stig is considerably faster than the old stig - look at the Lamborghini Murcielago times a couple of weeks ago.

I wont even mention that Clarkson is trying to get on to the order books for a Ford car that is already sold out....whoops.

More importantly though - the RX8 is too softly sprung for track work - its more suited to fast road use - Clarkson lied to you guys !!

RickB

So how do you explain its time = to the M3 AND the 350z. both I assume dry (although the 350z is ambiguos).Both old and new stig always give it a 100% round that track, and always get plenty of time to practice with the cars. And if you've been keeping up with the suzuki shed the guests race, its very easy to get (as a decent driver) comparable lap times, time after time, on that track.

Sure the track is tight and twisty which will suit lower weight cars, and not give all the advantage to higher BHP cars, but thats the test track they have, same for all.

Oh and have a look at the AutoX threads in the US racing part of this forum. The RX-8 is plenty competative in autox (stock) against porsche boxters, s2000's, m3's evo's and STi's.

Because the suspension is relativly soft in comparison does not mean it'll be bad round a track. Yes it might have a lot of travel, and sometimes a touch to much, but overall its a great setup. And the RX-8's lower weigth over the M3 and 350z realy showes.

Originally posted by tpryor
We had our autocross shakedown run(s) Saturday and Sunday. We took a guess at the alignment settings, mounted the Hoosiers (roadrace compound), and went to see what she has....

The car slaloms REALLY well (way better than we thought it would), but sets up a push in a steady state corner. It turns in initially, then goes "pushy", so we think its "sitting down" on the bump stop, spring rate goes to infinity, and the push starts. We think this can be overcome by a significant front bar (higher spring rate), and a tad more tweaking on the alignment.

Overall, we think this is going to be a nationally competitive car in BS with a little more development.

By the way, two BS trophy winners from Nationals are in our region, so we feel like we have a good yardstick.

Saturdays Results: Houston Region SCCA Results Page (http://www.houscca.com/solo2/soloresults.aspx)

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=136561

Originally posted by RickB
Guys,

I would step back from believing the topgear hype if I where you.

The 350Z tested was either a slower JDM car (with old stig) or a UK car in the wet for starters.
The US Z's have 10 hp more than the UK cars, right? Is that not true of the JDM cars also? 0-60 times are all about launch technique and some magazines just don't do agressive launches anyway so this probably explains the anomalous time from the Australian mag. And I thought the problem with the JDM car's suspensions was that they were too firm? Perfect for the track, surely.

The 350Z, of whatever spec did NOT get that time in the wet. You can tell this by looking a couple of places up the Top Gear board - there is a Porsche 911 Turbo which got a time just 0.8 seconds faster in the wet. You're surely not claiming that the Z is within a second of the Porsche (4 wheel drive and all) in the wet?

Secondly - the new stig is considerably faster than the old stig - look at the Lamborghini Murcielago times a couple of weeks ago.
The old Stig was a Formula One test driver. Who's the new one, Michael Schumacher? Anyone who can handle an F1 car on the limit would have no problem with any of our puny road cars. They could do it in their sleep and they'll all be within a second of each other.

I wont even mention that Clarkson is trying to get on to the order books for a Ford car that is already sold out....whoops.
I'm glad you didn't mention that. Why would Clarkson waste his time praising a car from a remote part of the Ford empire that only sells 3000 a year in the UK and already has waiting lists? Now, if next week he suddenly decides that the Mondeo is actually cool after all, then you may be onto something.

More importantly though - the RX8 is too softly sprung for track work - its more suited to fast road use - Clarkson lied to you guys !!
So Clarkson just decided to falsify the time for the RX-8 and his co-presenters just said "fine, we'll go along with that. We don't mind looking like idiots". And the producer said "no problem Jeremy. I don't care about the credibility of this show at all."

The irony is that while most of us over here are surprised and delighted at the time the RX-8 got, we wouldn't have been bothered if it was slower. As you say, it's designed for fast road use and it does that job very well thankyou.

Nice response Chris

Originally posted by ChrisW
The irony is that while most of us over here are surprised and delighted at the time the RX-8 got, we wouldn't have been bothered if it was slower. As you say, it's designed for fast road use and it does that job very well thankyou.

Well said that man!

I was honsestly expecting it to be up to a second slower, but had it been two seconds, I wouldn't have started throwing my toys out of the pram, and crying fix.

Over on the uk350Z forum, the conspiracy theories have even eclipsed 40 years of paranoia from the Kennady assination.

350Z fan boys: Get over it! It was a good car before TopGear, and still is after.

Cheers
---Dave

Chris,

The JDM cars have 11bhp less than the US cars - being 276bhp. The UK car is supposed to have the same 276bhp - however it has been supplied with the US exhaust as opposed to the JDM market one. The JDM market one being much more restrictive. Feel free to test drive both cars - the UK one is convincingly quicker - and please dont take my word for it - try it for yourself or ask any of the other guys over at the 350Z forum who have driven both.

Australian magazine times where pretty consistent with times owners where getting at the strip. 1/4 mile times where 1/2 second slower than US cars.

The UK car actually has increased damper rates over the JDM car - this eliminates the pogo effect present on japanese and US cars. The fix has been deemed so succesful in improving handling (and strangely ride) that it has now become standard fit on all market 350Z's. The Euro 350Z doesnt have softer suspension - just much better damping. The suspension was designed during sessions at the Nurburgring.

Never said the 350Z posted the time in the wet - read the post - I said it was one of two choices - the slower JDM car or a UK car in the wet - I said it was the JDM car hence no footage.

Regarding the Stig - could you please answer how the new stig was able to suddenly improve the laptime of the Lamborghini Murcielago by a number of seconds if he wasn't a better driver?

Clarkson has a habit of doing this - why is he so far out of step with every other motoring journalist / TV program about the Z? Even his own magazine (TopGear) prefers the Z - as does Autocar and 5th Gear. You give me a reasonable explanation?

Clarkson runs the television show and has done this numerous times before - he insisted on having overall control before agreeing to do the series.

Never said he falsified the RX8 time - its a damn good time and driven right on the edge but I see no reason to question it.

The problem - whilst you guys are surprised and delighted - everyone else is baffled - not about the laptime - more about his attacks on the 350Z.

The RX8 is a great car - hopefully have my order in for one shortly - but the Z is faster and better handling and is capable at cornering at higher speeds than the 8

Dont believe me? Okay - Road and Track magazine - slalom speeds for both cars - RX8 - 65.4mph - 350Z - 67.3mph.

Regards,

RickB

Druck,

Sadly the conspiracy theories are known fact - we have 'insider' knowledge :D

You guys seriously need to relax - im not slating the RX8 - far from it - im buying one !! All I am pointing out is that for some reason Clarkson has one on him about the Z !!

RickB

Originally posted by RickB

Regarding the Stig - could you please answer how the new stig was able to suddenly improve the laptime of the Lamborghini Murcielago by a number of seconds if he wasn't a better driver?



RickB,
The original time in the Lambo was done in the wet. The reason the new stig got to drive it was because they wanted to see what kind of dry time they would get.

The one thing struck me about the Top Gear RX-8 review was that it was similar to the Lotus Elise review a few months back in several respects. At that time JC drove a new Elise around the track, and complained that it wasn’t as good as the earlier versions and had more understeer. Lotus responded that this was deliberate to make the car less prone to break away quickly at the limit and was due to standard fitting of narrower front tyres. They also countered that the car was quicker if you drove it right. TG took them up on this, and the Lotus test driver came in to do a few laps. It was the manner in which he drove the lap that I was reminded of last week, i.e. fairly manic with oversteer being deliberately provoked to counter the understeer. But is was very quick. And then JC says the RX-8 is twitchy in the wet and it’s due to the tyres.

So there you have it. RX-8 handles like an Elise, only with 4 seats and a better engine. QED. ;-)

What does the Lotus test driver look like in white overalls and helmet??? :)

Rick,

I'll take your word for it on the relative performance of the JDM and UK 350Z's. But I don't know why you thought the time for the Z was slow and requires an explanation. Same as an M3 - seems pretty good. However, if the UK cars are even faster than this, congratulations - I've never doubted that the Z is a very fast car.

You don't need to come up with conspiracy theories to explain why Clarkson likes some cars and not others. Partly its just personal taste (he's always liked VTEC's and other high revving cars) and he makes less effort to be objective than most testers. But he also just likes to be different and say things that will rile people and that he thinks are amusing.

If you think he's just biased against Nissans then how do you explain his comments in Top Gear magazine earlier this year before he had driven the Z. Comparing its styling to the 8 and Crossfire he said it was by far the coolest. And if he wanted to overpraise the Mazda for some machiavelian reason then he wouldn't have said it had dangerous wet weather handling - potentially very serious, if it were true.

You said that Clarkson "lied" to us. I took that to mean about the track time. If not that, then what did he actually lie about?

A couple of things:

I think most of us on here would agree that the 350Z is the faster car; given the torque/straight-line acceleration.

The RX-8 has always proved to be the better handling car and corners more effectively.

Given the above: I would say that the track they tested on doesn't give the 350Z to prove itself in a straight line. JC also probably prefers innovation over brute force and is entitled to his opinion (well-founded or not).

Anyway I think he could have got a better time in the RX-8. Did you notice how many corners he managed to slide (some understeer, some oversteer)?. Given a smoother line, the time could improve even more. And before I get flamed, just watch F1 qualifying. Any kind of slide and the lap is ruined. However tight the track and whatever type of car.

Jon H an F1 car is far different from a road cars than a road car is from a gocart - different techniques for different types of vehicle. They dont slide F1 cars, because it degrades the very soft tyres. You do slide gocart because they dont have the power to accelarate out.

On a road car with hard road tyres and far less power, its quicker in some cases to slide round corners to keep the speed up. Understeer and oversteer being used as approprite to ensure the best line and traction coming out of the corner. Its only because the RX8 is so well balanced the driver can chose to understeer or oversteer, as in most other cars, you either get one or the other.

If you do a completely neat lap, it will be slow, if you do a completely leary lap it will also be slow. Getting just the right slide from the right end is why the Stig is the Stig, and you and me are just armchair racers.

Cheers
---Dave

If you freeze frame the scoreboard you'll notice the Porsche 911 Turbo is just 0.8 seconds faster than the RX8! I didn't see the show that featured the Porsche but it must have lost a lot of time around the corners.

Guys,

The 350Z has beaten the M3 on numerous tracks driven by numerous magazines including Road & track, SportZ magazine and a whole host of Japanese magazines.

He certainly didn't lie about the RX8 - stunning car - you wont hear any complaints from me about that one.

The problem on a track between the Z and the RX8 is one of transitions - the RX8 has very good maximum grip levels (around 0.88g on the skidpan) - about the same as the Z. However during transitions - the softness of the 8 suspension costs it time - it takes longer to settle on its suspension to generate maximum grip (hence the reason why the Z is a couple of mph faster through a slalom).

The point of this is - I dont doubt the RX8 time - I doubt the 350Z time - it should of been quicker than the M3.

Based on those stats alone - the 350Z is the more focused handling machine - the RX8 is great - but the 350Z is the more track focussed.

As for the lying part - Clarkson is not telling the truth with the Zed (forget conspiracy theories - it really is true). I'm more than happy to see a back to back comparison of the Z and the 8 on a track - it should heavily favour the Z - with road comparisons - its 50/50 as to which will win.

Either way - I dont think anyone can be criticised for their choice between the 8 and the Z - top cars each !!

RickB

Originally posted by druck
Jon H an F1 car is far different from a road cars than a road car is from a gocart - different techniques for different types of vehicle. They dont slide F1 cars, because it degrades the very soft tyres. You do slide gocart because they dont have the power to accelarate out.

On a road car with hard road tyres and far less power, its quicker in some cases to slide round corners to keep the speed up. Understeer and oversteer being used as approprite to ensure the best line and traction coming out of the corner. Its only because the RX8 is so well balanced the driver can chose to understeer or oversteer, as in most other cars, you either get one or the other.

If you do a completely neat lap, it will be slow, if you do a completely leary lap it will also be slow. Getting just the right slide from the right end is why the Stig is the Stig, and you and me are just armchair racers.

Cheers
---Dave

D
We'll have to go on disagreeing on that one I think - any slide is loss of energy and forward motion = slower time whatever the vehicle. We dont know how many laps Stig gets to perfect the vehicle he is in, and how much he is geared towards entertaining v. a genuine fastest time. And did you really mean you do slide a go kart? I have done quite a few hundred laps in those and know that a slide is bad news, however spectacular it looks. I am no Stig for sure, but I have been through Silverstone Racing School so a bit more than armchair racer however.
JH

Jon H,

As was said on Topgear - they slid the RX8 round because the Stig had found that to be the quickest way of doing it.

RickB

Plus - given the RX8 transitional cornering issues - i.e. it takes longer to settle into a steady state during cornering. Its quicker to drive past that with understeer/oversteer - than it its to wait for the car to set itself up for the corner.

RickB

Originally posted by RickB
Plus - given the RX8 transitional cornering issues - i.e. it takes longer to settle into a steady state during cornering. Its quicker to drive past that with understeer/oversteer - than it its to wait for the car to set itself up for the corner.

RickB

My knowledge isnt deep enough to get into a detailed discussion on suspension transition and the merit of over/understeer vs energy management but it does seem a bit academic in "Real Life"(tm) from the point of view that few of us actually have to drive to work etc through a slalom course or via a track with white race overalls and a helmet on! :D

My final thoughts (for what they are worth) are that the RX8 and 350Z are two brilliant cars and I wish I could have both!

Ok, this argument about whether the 350Z numbers are legitimate is going to go nowhere. We don't know ANYTHING about the way these laps are set up. Did the Stig get practice laps to get used to the car? Was the track wet when he drove the 350Z? Maybe the Stig's style is more suited to the 8 than the Z. Or maybe the Z that was used wasn't the Track edition? Who knows, and better yet, who here cares?

The fact that we can take here is that for whatever the reason, with the same driver the 8 can perform just as well as certain Z's or M3's under certain conditions. That's all. Some people may drive laps better with the Z or maybe with the 8. It all depends on the individual's driving style and what racing line they tend to take, braking, etc.

The old stig was a F1 driver (almost heh) , the new stig is someone very similar (Jag test driver I think).

Any driver of that caliber will get withing 1/10th of a second round that track of any other drive (i.e. old = new stig). They will need a few laps, but I wouldnt think they'd need more than an hour or so.

The track was dry, else they would have said the 350z was done on a wet track, and on that track I dont think a 350z will get that close (0.8sec) to the porsche in the same conditions (wet).

The 350z is heavier and has a much higher polar moment, and when pushed, on a track where HP matter much less than others, it gets a draw with an RX-8 and an M3.

Whats so hard to comprehend there? We know weight works against cars on that track, why do you thing the high powered but lardy M3 got embarassed by both the Jap cars?

Originally posted by RickB
The problem on a track between the Z and the RX8 is one of transitions - the RX8 has very good maximum grip levels (around 0.88g on the skidpan) - about the same as the Z. However during transitions - the softness of the 8 suspension costs it time - it takes longer to settle on its suspension to generate maximum grip (hence the reason why the Z is a couple of mph faster through a slalom).
Sorry, but this smacks of choosing one aspect of the RX-8 (i.e. softer suspension) and constructing an arguement based soley on this to suit you opinion. Handling is, as I'm sure we all know, determined by a multitude of variable factors. The RX-8 may well outperform the Z in several of this factors, which means on this particular track, in those weather conditions it can match the Z's time.

One thing I can guarentee is that for me, in "real world" conditions, the RX-8 would usually be about twice as quick as a Z and about the same as an M3. But only because I have both a wife and a son.:D

Originally posted by Jon H
D
We'll have to go on disagreeing on that one I think - any slide is loss of energy and forward motion = slower time whatever the vehicle.

Yes, you loose energy sliding and slow down, but you have to slow down to go round corners. You can either do that via breaking and trickle round, or induce a slide, and get it pointing in the right direction to put the power down on exit.


We dont know how many laps Stig gets to perfect the vehicle he is in, and how much he is geared towards entertaining v. a genuine fastest time.


The entertainment is Clarkson, burning a set of tyres going sideways and usually backwards (hopeless compared to Tiff), in the first part of the segment. When the Stig is driving, its for speed, and speed alone.


And did you really mean you do slide a go kart? I have done quite a few hundred laps in those and know that a slide is bad news, however spectacular it looks. I am no Stig for sure, but I have been through Silverstone Racing School so a bit more than armchair racer however.
JH

I've always been taught to slide it on the slow corners, as otherwise the small engine gets bogged down, and you have no accelaration comming out. Keep the power down, slide the back round, and the revs are kept up, and it will pull away on exit.

I do find it very difficult to get right, especially on some of the poor surfaces of the outside tarmac circuits. I am much better on the fast corners, where you take them smoothly without sliding.

I'm normally with a pretty hopeless bunch, so I could do with a bit of competition. Let me know if you are planning a session sometime!

Cheers
---Dave

Originally posted by Jon H
Anyway I think he could have got a better time in the RX-8. Did you notice how many corners he managed to slide (some understeer, some oversteer)?. Given a smoother line, the time could improve even more. And before I get flamed, just watch F1 qualifying. Any kind of slide and the lap is ruined. However tight the track and whatever type of car.
F1 cars have very far from 50:50 weight distribution and as soon as you get the car more than a few degrees out of line the downforce starts to disappear, so you definitely wouldn't want to try hanging the tail out. At the other extreme rally drivers slide their cars a lot (even on tarmac). Who knows what the best technique is for a given road car. If the Stig says that's the best way to drive it on that track then I believe him.

BTW, do you remember Schumacher deliberately sliding his Ferarri through the swimming pool section at Monaco a couple of years ago and getting an amazing qualifying time? It can sometimes work, even with F1 cars (although you probably have to be a genius to pull it off).