Performance tuning kits [Archive]

canzoomer

11-22-2003, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by MPG > HP
CZ,

This sounds really enticing and I have an extra $500 burning a hole in my pocket. I hope my questions will be of interest to others:

1. I'd prefer not to damage the environment any more than I have to. Other than at WOT, what is the difference in emissions between Stage I and stock at 80MPH steady cruise and also in stop-n-go?

At 80mph you are at around 4300rpm.
We do not change anything below 3750rpm. At roughly 4,000 to 6,000 we enrich the mixture slightly, to yield about 4 to 7HP increase. This will not change much in your emissions, as the cat cleans it up the same as stock.
We have designed this to make a 14.6:1 mixture in these conditions, versus roughly a 15.6:1 to 16:1 as provided by Mazda.

2. How much would you charge to include the disabling switch pre-wired and connected? (I'm too lazy/preoccupied to break out the soldering iron.)

Using a Mazda switch, that is normally used to control the rear fog light ( in Japanese models this is an option) we could provide the wires configured to attach this as part of the harness.
Cost would be $36 for the switch, and probably about $50 for the extra work to configure it to attach to that.
That way you would have an original switch that fits in the dash, next to the DSC and lighting control switches.

3. Will customers be able to obtain flash updates of newer maps as you make them? What would be the reflash procedure and how much would they cost? (see next)

No, but one could exchange the unit to get this. The unit is not designed to be reflashed, but we can replace the ROM here with a new one with a different map.
If you wanted to send it in we will charge the difference between this version, and the one you are going to switch to, plus shipping and handling.
So, to upgrade from a Stage1 to a Stage2 setup, it will run about $350.
However bear in mind the Stage2 is NOT designed for street use.
It requires removal of the stock catalytic converter, and it also requires the installation of a small device that spoofs the O2 sensor output to prevent a CEL.
Essentially you would be trading in the control module we provide. The wiring could be left in place, as the Stage1 and Stage2 harness is identical. Everything involved in the change is in the box, and that just plugs in.

4. We all could use an extra 20-25 HP at WOT, but for everyday (95% of the time) driving, "throttle jumping" HP isn't really needed for point-shoots through traffic, if you're crafty, so the main issue becomes MPG. What are the prospects for getting a super-efficiency map for low-mid throttle while keeping the current Stage I mapping for when you want to have some WOT fun?

Poor. The stock configuration from Mazda does not run rich at partial throttle and lower rpm ranges. The gains to be had are mostly at high rpm and mostly full throttle operation.
This is not going to result in big fuel savings except when you play hard. In certain circumstances, as you will require less throttel to maintain speed, you may gain some mileage.

I feel that anyone who claims otherwise is BS'ing.

One could do something like disable the controls that open the third set of intake runners, but that would make the car run like a dog.

What would be the potential MPG gains (again in "normal" driving only)? How many orders would you need to ship this mapping at "market" prices?

We could probably do an "economy map" but i doubt that many would be happy with it.
We plan on a multi map setup in the future, and this could be one of the options. For now, however, our kits will initially only be capable of holding one map set.
We expect to be shipping the multi-map version in the spring. Our target market for this is mainly for people who are installing boost, and who want a daily driver, as well as a performance tune. This will be a considerably more expensive unit, as it will be incorporating a controller like the Apexi FC or similar.

5. Are you on the Canadian west coast? If you're east coast, then what the heck are you doing up at 02:30?

We are in Alberta. Edmonton and Red Deer specifically.
Mountain Time Zone.
Rust never sleeps.
As i have mentioned before i have a business, and a family, and sometimes the only time I get to catch up on correspondence is in the wee hours. Plus I deal a lot overseas in Asia, and when it is night here it is daytime over there.

Thanks for providing this valuable service to us rotorheads!
As I have mentioned earlier, my motives are fairly selfish.
I want this for my car, and I figured the only way it was going to happen in a fairly prompt time frame was to do it myself.
After I started doing it and talking with people on the forums about it, I was deluged with others who were interested.

Thus it all began.

canzoomer

11-22-2003, 03:02 AM

Originally posted by my10ae
CZ:

If an ECU remap would not help the AT gain extra HP, then so be it. The issue with the tranny not being able to take an extra 5-10HP is, what I think, false. Do you really think Mazda de-tuned the auto tranny for its North American market to go along with the HP drop? The car was originally supposed to have 210HP (if I remember correctly). Mazda now has it at 197HP. If J-spec auto 8's are making the extra 13HP and not destroying their tranny's (with no ecu remap), why then do you think the (N. American) auto can't possibly take another 10+HP?

If the remap can't be done on the auto, I'm good with that. I know you have multiple hours and a large investment in the remapping for the 6sp and may not want to deal with the auto issue. I for one would buy a stage 1 upgrade if it was made available to get back that lost 13 or so HP. Would anyone else?

If it can be done and there is enough interest, would you consider this a possibility for the auto owners out there?

Regards,
Kevin

I do not think that it is not completely a matter that the tranny could not take the power, as a matter of the rpm.

Not too many automatic trannies can take 9,000rpm.

As the peak power is made above 6,000, and peaks at 8500, it is a matter that there was no point in them building in the third set of intake runners, and the intake crossover port, which only come into play at 6,000 and 7,200rpm respectively.

Maybe we can do one to make 10-13hp.

To do this we would need an RX-8 with AT to tune with, and some reasonable number of people who would buy this from us.

So far I have had about 4 enquiries for an AT kit, versus about 500+ people who have ORDERED our MT kit to this date.

Before I even consider this we have to satisfy these people.
Then we have to finish design and testing on our Stage2 kit.

We have aout 100+ serious requests for that version.

That is about a third of a million dollars worth of kits.

It is also a LOT of hours on the kit building, co-ordination, packing, shipping , paperwork involved in handling these orders, and so on.

It is a LOT of work!

Another factor is that we are paying for all the parts out of our pockets right now, and have not taken any money in yet!

Once we get enough shipped, and get caught up we will have some time to do more serious work on further projects.

Before we look at MT, we want to finish our work on Stage2, and on exhausts, catalytic converter replacements, and other things that are higher priorities.

Remember,we are just a couple of guys and there are only so many hours in each day.

canzoomer

11-22-2003, 03:08 AM

Originally posted by FONZIE
________________________________________________

I have a question for anyone who might know...

Does anyone make a Cat bypass system where a cat and a straight pipe are in parallel and can be switched back or forth by a couple of electric valves on both ends?

It got me thinking that if you could do this and canzoomer made his system switchable between Stage 1 and Stage 2 then with a pair of switches you could easily convert from a Stage 1 setup to a Stage 2 setup in seconds. Viola, ~30 extra hp when you need it........
It is technically possible, I guess.
Pretty tight for room to put two midpipes in, and the cat, and so on.
The direction I am following at present is to try a cat with a higher temperature rating, and a kit with a medium tune level that can work with this to make more power, but still be emissions legal, at least in some places.
The testing is going to take some time, as the only realistic way to test converter longevity is to install it and put some considerable mileage on it while monitoring it to see if the cat is still working.
I doubt we will know this with any level of certainty until well into the spring.

However, in many jurisdictions this will still not cut it, as it would fail a visual inspection, and the regulations say that you can not modify the exhaust to circumvent the stock emissions controls.

We could only sell this as a kit for off-road use.

canzoomer

11-22-2003, 03:16 AM

Originally posted by Maniac
1) A CAT cutout of any kind would fail the visual inspection
2) You can't "switch" Canzoomers kit on the fly. The ECU will freak out. You have to turn off the car, disconnect it, and the reset the ECU.
3) When do NOT the extra 30 HP?:p
I can tell you, you would NEVER have that switch in the off position if you had it.

Well put, and true.
To switch setups you HAVE to disconnect power from the battery to the ECU. Remember it is "live" even with the car turned off.
Think about the security system..

Then, once you switch, there is still a few minutes of varied running required for the ECU to "re-train" to the new conditions.

If you are looking for something to allow you an occasional "street kill" you should be looking at a mild nitrous kit.

But this is pretty stupid, IMHO, as it will wreck things.
And we are not doing this stuff for people to do "street kills".

OK?

We have three goals:
Short term:
To allow the RX-8 to perform as originally advertised by Mazda.

Long term:
To produce parts for people to bolt on the RX-8 to allow them to run in track events, with higher performance, and NOT on the road.

Longer term:
To provide both of these tune levels, plus the option of one for use with boost. This will be a two or three map setup, and will cost considerably more, as it requires a MUCH more sophisticated computer in it.

Omicron

11-22-2003, 08:07 PM

Maurice, just a thought here... may be a stupid question...

With the current setup you are designing, one has to disconnect the battery to add and remove the piggyback. Then there's the "reprogramming" needed. Would it be possible to maintain power to the factory ECU somehow, to eliminate this process? If so, it might be possible to have a setup one could switch on the fly.....?

canzoomer

11-22-2003, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by Omicron
Maurice, just a thought here... may be a stupid question...

With the current setup you are designing, one has to disconnect the battery to add and remove the piggyback. Then there's the "reprogramming" needed. Would it be possible to maintain power to the factory ECU somehow, to eliminate this process? If so, it might be possible to have a setup one could switch on the fly.....?

It is possible.
It is also really easy to cause enough disturbance to cause a check engine light to come on.
This is easy enought to clear in the operational sense, by disconnecting the battery.

However, that fault code will b stored in the ECU until cleared by a scan tool at the dealers..

One can most safely switch it with the car turned off.
As long as one does it then the result will be safe.

You should still run it a bit to get the re-train done, if you are doing this prior to an emissions check.

No Pistons

11-23-2003, 02:02 PM

How do I go about getting myself a stage 2? I want one and I am very very interested.

Thanks
- Drew

Lock & Load

11-24-2003, 01:04 PM

Canzoomer

Dyno run done by hymee in the australian forum showed our cars running A/F/Mixtures at 12.5

US rx8 you have stated run at 14.6 at patial throttle and at 13.2 at WOT.

How will OZ rx8 be affected by this difference in Air Fuel Mixtures on your stage 1 kit???

Can you foresee any problems ???

Thanks from kangarro 2 , i will fax order in the morning from wifes work place .

Michael.

Lock & Load

11-24-2003, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Lock & Load
Canzoomer

Dyno run done by hymee in the australian forum showed our cars running A/F/Mixtures at 12.5

US rx8 you have stated run at 14.6 at patial throttle and at 13.2 at WOT.

How will OZ rx8 be affected by this difference in Air Fuel Mixtures on your stage 1 kit???

Can you foresee any problems ???

Thanks from kangarro 2 , i will fax order in the morning from wifes work place .

Michael.

Any other thoughts re above from other forum member also appreciated .

emack

11-25-2003, 01:11 AM

.................make that the same question from a 3rd Aussie. ie will Stage 1 work on Oz spec cars?!

Thanks.

tommy12g

11-25-2003, 04:43 PM

When are these units coming out?

Thanks

canzoomer

11-26-2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by emack
.................make that the same question from a 3rd Aussie. ie will Stage 1 work on Oz spec cars?!

Thanks.
The mixture he measured was in the tailpipe, AFTER the cat.
Not exactly a representative reading.

We measured in the exhaust BEFORE the cat, where you get correct readings.

As for shipping:
A few have gone out.
End of this week, assuming no issues reported, we start shipping for real.

Then I put up final data, dyno sheets, and the website goes online.

emack

11-26-2003, 12:44 AM

Thank you can zoomer..........would a mechanically retarded individual like me be able to install the stage 1?!

canzoomer

11-26-2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by emack
Thank you can zoomer..........would a mechanically retarded individual like me be able to install the stage 1?!

I think so. It is pretty simple.

A few bolts to undo and later re-do, a few plastic clips, and so on.

Nothing very technical or physiacally or mentally strainful.

Can you hook up a stereo?

It is less complicated than that..

emack

11-26-2003, 01:01 AM

I'll take one............how do I go about it?

canzoomer

11-26-2003, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by emack
I'll take one............how do I go about it?

Send me an email, please:

maurice@harddata.com

Thanks emack!

compaddict

11-26-2003, 09:59 AM

Maurice,

Are you answering your emails?

Vince

canzoomer

11-26-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by compaddict
Maurice,

Are you answering your emails?

Vince

Certainly.

Did you send me one??

compaddict

11-26-2003, 10:51 AM

Four I think..

I resent the last one.

Look under
Vince Russell
Auburn, CA

Thanks,

Vince

rx8 - smooth!

11-27-2003, 07:13 PM

Canzoomer,

First of all congratulations on putting in so much time & effort into the development of your piggyback unit.

I am very interested in purchasing one but I am by nature a little cautious.

I notice that you blew an engine in your car. Do you consider that there is any possibility that this may have been caused due to the higher internal temperatures generated by leaning out the A/F ratio?

I understand that by purchasing this unit we will be compromising the life of our cats and I am happy to accept that but I worry that we also be doing the same thing to the engine.

I am NOT trying to be negative about this but just voicing an objection that is stopping me sending an order to you. I look forward to your reply.

VelocityRedRX8

11-27-2003, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by mikeb
no AT version
crap

Man, I agree!

:(

SunDiver

11-28-2003, 06:14 AM

i) Would these modifications work on UK RX-8s?

Thanks in advance...

se3pmaniac

11-28-2003, 08:42 AM

From your info, I am really worried about the effect of your device on the engine. I don't know what kind of background you have on tuning rotary but tuning the rotary to run 13.2 a/f ratio under full throttle is too lean. You are running into the risk of detonating the engine. Advancing the timing will increase the chance even more. What you are doing is very risky.

Also from your post, it does not seem like you know much about rotary engine. A failed oil metering pump for oil injection system will not kill the side seals. Oil injection system's main purpose is to lubricate the apex seals. If it fails, the apex seals will wear out slowly and the enigne will run weaker and weaker. A sudden death of engine is a sign of blown apex seal. It has nothing to do with side seals.

You might want to run more testing on your car before you offer this to public. People will be very mad if they start to blow motors. Rotary engine can't withstand detonation. This is no piston motor. A sudden lean condition will blow the apex seal. You always need some kind of safety margin when tuning the rotary engine especially for street use. A tank of bad pump gas can blow the motor. Ask any people who have been around rotary for sometime will tell you the same thing.

pp13bnos

11-28-2003, 09:48 AM

I don't know what kind of background you have on tuning rotary but tuning the rotary to run 13.2 a/f ratio under full throttle is too lean.

Uhhh....on a n/a engine, 13.2 is not to lean. My N/A 90 made peak power running a 14.25 a/f ratio. That was 167rwhp on a Mustang, or around 180ish on a dyno jet. I traded the car in with almost 30k miles on the engine/tune for my FE. The car still ran great. :)

CJ

RXhusker

11-28-2003, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
You might want to run more testing on your car before you offer this to public.

YOU might want to read all of the threads and all of the replys on this topic before you start making comments. The issues of rotary tuning knowledge, proper a/f ratios, etc, etc, have all been discussed -- the only thing we are waiting for is an actual dyno.

MazdaManiac

11-28-2003, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

I love it when someone is new to a forum, joins a thread, skims it and then posts a reply without knowing all the details.

Its not that the points made are irrelevant but, rather, that they have already been addressed but the poster is too lazy to read the thread before opining on the subject.

Q121825

11-28-2003, 01:07 PM

Question for Canzoomer: When to install the mod? If I purchase an 8 in the spring, should I break the engine in using the unaltered system then install the mod? I dug through the other threads and didn't see this question (though I may have missed it).

Omicron

11-28-2003, 01:52 PM

You should be able to install it anytime... just follow the normal break in period, and baby the engine for the first (IMO) 1000 miles or so.

Of course, if you're babying it, you won't feel the gains of the ECU piggyback..

Actually, if I were you I would break the engine in stock, THEN install the new ECU piggyback after break in, simply because in that first 1000 miles you'll get a good feel for how your '8 runs - and adding the extra 25 WHP later on will make it feel like you strapped a rocket to it! :D

-=Zeqs=-

11-28-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by canzoomer
Still, I DO want to point out that in some jurisdictions if you are caught running modifications that make your car make illegal emissions, you could be liable for a $2,500 fine.

Some places they never check.
And some places the DO.

You have been warned..

California...Running leaded fuels, removing catalytic convertor = $10,000 fine and punishable by time in prison. Keep that in mind as well.

-=Zeqs=-

11-28-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by canzoomer
So far I have had about 4 enquiries for an AT kit, versus about 500+ people who have ORDERED our MT kit to this date.

If you build it...I will come...hell, even if you charged a little more for the AT kit...650 as opposed to 500 for the M/T, I'd still be interested, so long as it is as simple to install as the M/T version is.

But hey, I also understand that in the world of business, it's best to sell what you can sell quickly and easily so long as the demand is there. However...should you ever get the opportunity to come up with an A/T version in the next year or so to come...I'll be waiting :D

mikeb

11-28-2003, 03:47 PM

what he said ^^^^^

canzoomer

11-29-2003, 12:37 AM

Originally posted by rx8 - smooth!
Canzoomer,

First of all congratulations on putting in so much time & effort into the development of your piggyback unit.

I am very interested in purchasing one but I am by nature a little cautious.

I notice that you blew an engine in your car. Do you consider that there is any possibility that this may have been caused due to the higher internal temperatures generated by leaning out the A/F ratio?

No, I really do not think so.
For example I ran about 650km completely stock just before the engine went.
Also, it did not "blow".
It threw a check engine light, then stumblred and deteriorated.
Mazda told me that the failure was due to an oil injection fault.

I understand that by purchasing this unit we will be compromising the life of our cats and I am happy to accept that but I worry that we also be doing the same thing to the engine.

I am NOT trying to be negative about this but just voicing an objection that is stopping me sending an order to you. I look forward to your reply.

I think that ANY increase in power output will diminish engine (and drivetrain) life to *some* degree.
However it is a matter of degree.
An RX-8 running our Stage1 kit puts out no more power than a stock RX-8 in Japan.
Mazda obviously feel that this is OK.

canzoomer

11-29-2003, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
From your info, I am really worried about the effect of your device on the engine. I don't know what kind of background you have on tuning rotary but tuning the rotary to run 13.2 a/f ratio under full throttle is too lean. You are running into the risk of detonating the engine. Advancing the timing will increase the chance even more. What you are doing is very risky.

Actually this is fairly rich.
Tuners who have done RX-7's for years are running as lean as 14:1 on lots of rotaries.
Further, I am told by tuners over the pond in Japan that the stock WOT condition at 7200rpm is about 13.6-13.7:1 ratio.
We also looked at exhaust gas temperatures.
These are in line with what one should see as well.
If there is ANY place to be concerned about heat, it is the spark plugs and coil packs.
Simply put, in a rotary they get a heavier duty cycle than in a piston engine vehicle. Every plug fires what is effectively 3 cylinders, and the plugs are not getting a charge of cold air on an intake cycle, like a 4 stroke.
This is similar to what you see in a 2 stroke engine.
I saw it when we ran power WAY up for a few tests one day, with leaner fuel mix and a lot more ignition advance. We made a LOT more than 25HP gain, and, in fact peaked over 50HP higher.
But, at the end of that day, after a lot of runs on the dynoe, the coil packs started to melt.
They are right on top of the plugs, and get a lot of heat transfer.

Of course it did not help that we were sitting still in the shop, under repeated heavy load, with no air flow.

Also from your post, it does not seem like you know much about rotary engine. A failed oil metering pump for oil injection system will not kill the side seals. Oil injection system's main purpose is to lubricate the apex seals. If it fails, the apex seals will wear out slowly and the enigne will run weaker and weaker. A sudden death of engine is a sign of blown apex seal. It has nothing to do with side seals.

I tend to agree with you that a oil injection failure is unlikely.
Bearing failure is much more likely.
The engine was comprssion tested after the failure, with no reduction in compression loss, so seal failure is NOT the problem.
It showed all the signs of seizing. Whether that was a bearing failure, as I believe, or an oil injection failure, as Mazda said, we can not tell without stripping down the engine.
.A friend of mine who rebuilds and modifies rotary engines tells me that he feels it is likely a bearing failure as well.

I do not exactly KNOW what killed my engine. We did not have a chance to tear it down and find out.

That diagnosis is what Mazda Canada told me.

You might want to run more testing on your car before you offer this to public. People will be very mad if they start to blow motors. Rotary engine can't withstand detonation. This is no piston motor. A sudden lean condition will blow the apex seal. You always need some kind of safety margin when tuning the rotary engine especially for street use. A tank of bad pump gas can blow the motor. Ask any people who have been around rotary for sometime will tell you the same thing.

I am VERY confident that we are not even getting CLOSE to detnation. Under tests where we made twice as much power gain as we are selling, we saw NO signs of detonation.
And that was at 3,000 foot altitude.

But I appreciate your concerns.

canzoomer

11-29-2003, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by -=Zeqs=-
If you build it...I will come...hell, even if you charged a little more for the AT kit...650 as opposed to 500 for the M/T, I'd still be interested, so long as it is as simple to install as the M/T version is.

But hey, I also understand that in the world of business, it's best to sell what you can sell quickly and easily so long as the demand is there. However...should you ever get the opportunity to come up with an A/T version in the next year or so to come...I'll be waiting :D

No matter what we decide, without a car with automatic to test and tune on, we cannot do it.
And I do not know anyone around these parts who has an AT RX-8

So now what?

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 03:04 AM

Who tuned rotary on pump gas at full throttle at 14.1 a/f? Care to name the companies that you are referring to? Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas. Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising. That a/f ratio does not make max power. You can cruise at 14.1 all day long without blowing the motor simply because the load on the engine isn't there. That's what the close loop oxygen sensor is for, trying to keep the a/f at crusing as close to 14.7 to save fuel.

It seems like all your info was being told to you. You don't really have any experience on tuning rotary or have any idea how a rotary works. That's what I most worry about. There are a few rotary tuners on board and none of them will tell you tuning a rotary at 14.1 a/f is safe on pump gas under full throttle and on top of that, advance the timing by a lot?

If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.

How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.

Yes, I am very concerned, simply because what you are doing is very dangerous. There are a lot of first time rotary owners on board and they don't know anything about rotary. This is the same thing when 3rd gen RX-7 came out. People don't know anything about it and start doing stupid mods and engine blows up. It's good that you are very confident about your product. Are you confident enough to pay for people's blown motor and state that in writing?

So how much timing are you advancing over the stock map? Did you change both the leading timing map and trailing timing map and what kind of timing split do you see? You should release more detail info on your a/f and ignition tuning for those people who know about rotary to see if your tuning is safe. Please do that in excel format like the apex power fc table so people can simply download it and analyze.

Originally posted by canzoomer
Actually this is fairly rich.
Tuners who have done RX-7's for years are running as lean as 14:1 on lots of rotaries.
Further, I am told by tuners over the pond in Japan that the stock WOT condition at 7200rpm is about 13.6-13.7:1 ratio.
We also looked at exhaust gas temperatures.
These are in line with what one should see as well.
If there is ANY place to be concerned about heat, it is the spark plugs and coil packs.
Simply put, in a rotary they get a heavier duty cycle than in a piston engine vehicle. Every plug fires what is effectively 3 cylinders, and the plugs are not getting a charge of cold air on an intake cycle, like a 4 stroke.
This is similar to what you see in a 2 stroke engine.
I saw it when we ran power WAY up for a few tests one day, with leaner fuel mix and a lot more ignition advance. We made a LOT more than 25HP gain, and, in fact peaked over 50HP higher.
But, at the end of that day, after a lot of runs on the dynoe, the coil packs started to melt.
They are right on top of the plugs, and get a lot of heat transfer.

Of course it did not help that we were sitting still in the shop, under repeated heavy load, with no air flow.

I tend to agree with you that a oil injection failure is unlikely.
Bearing failure is much more likely.
The engine was comprssion tested after the failure, with no reduction in compression loss, so seal failure is NOT the problem.
It showed all the signs of seizing. Whether that was a bearing failure, as I believe, or an oil injection failure, as Mazda said, we can not tell without stripping down the engine.
.A friend of mine who rebuilds and modifies rotary engines tells me that he feels it is likely a bearing failure as well.

I do not exactly KNOW what killed my engine. We did not have a chance to tear it down and find out.

That diagnosis is what Mazda Canada told me.

I am VERY confident that we are not even getting CLOSE to detnation. Under tests where we made twice as much power gain as we are selling, we saw NO signs of detonation.
And that was at 3,000 foot altitude.

But I appreciate your concerns.

MazdaManiac

11-29-2003, 12:26 PM

While I'm sure everyone here is encouraged by your enthusiasm, you should couch your arguments in somewhat less condescending language.
You should also have a better grip on the facts.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas.

Well, by our rating methods, we don't have 100 octane. However, we do have the same octane as the Japanese.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising. That a/f ratio does not make max power. You can cruise at 14.1 all day long without blowing the motor simply because the load on the engine isn't there. That's what the close loop oxygen sensor is for, trying to keep the a/f at crusing as close to 14.7 to save fuel.

The load and stoichiometry are independent. Maximum power is achieved at the leanest A/F ratio you can supply that will not produce knock at maximum VE. Generally, you will want to run slightly richer under most circumstances to protect the engine because a myriad of conditions may exist to move the ratio to the lean side of stoich and a little bit of fuel is cheap compared to a motor rebuild.
BTW - true stoichiometry of gasoline is 15.179. It takes 15.179 kg of air to combust one kg of gasoline. 14.1 is the maximum power figure with some room for safety.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.

And he has said this very thing over and over again. Read the thread. Canzoomer has realized all along that a bearing failure is likely the real culprit rather than an injection failure.
However, for Mazda, an injection failure is more palatable because a bearing failure is a flawed part while a injection failure is a flawed tolerance. A flawed part requires a recall and an engine teardown. A flawed tolerance only requires a TSB. Much cheaper.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.

I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.

BTW - it is a BARO sensor these days. not ATM.

compaddict

11-29-2003, 01:42 PM

Very nice work Jeff.

Vince

canzoomer

11-29-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Who tuned rotary on pump gas at full throttle at 14.1 a/f? Care to name the companies that you are referring to? Do you know quoting a/f from a Japanese company will be the most foolish thing you can do since their gas is 100 octane. We don't have 100 octane pump gas.

No, It is NOT.
They have higher RON # fuel available.
That does NOT translate to higher octane.
In N. America we use a standard for pump gas that is a mixture of the RON index and the anti-knock index.
96RON roughly translates into a 91 octane level fuel using hte N.American ratings standard.
RON ONLY refers to the "Research Octane Number" and has little to do with the "Anti Knock Index"
The two are not identical things.

It is a common myth that the ratings in many foreign ( to us ) locales actually translate to higher octane levels.
If you read through the RX8-club forums and do some searches on the terms "fuel octane" you will find some useful discussiuons where this is detailed very well.
I am NOT going to repeat it (again) here.
To make a long story short you have some misconceptions about octane, detonation(knocking) mixtures, and ignition advance.
Some of us have done our homework and took the time to gain an understanding of this, and some have not.
You fall into the latter catgory.

Please spread your FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) elsewhere.

Besides that, running 14.1 a/f is for cruising.

No, for that you want around 14.6 to 14.8:1

It seems like all your info was being told to you. You don't really have any experience on tuning rotary or have any idea how a rotary works. That's what I most worry about. There are a few rotary tuners on board and none of them will tell you tuning a rotary at 14.1 a/f is safe on pump gas under full throttle and on top of that, advance the timing by a lot?

And YOU do?
I doubt it. In what you have said in this message alone you have fully illustrated that you have absolutely NO CLUE about what you are talking about.
If you do not like what we are doing, so be it, It is a free discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.
All of this has been discussed in a LOT of detail already, and if you care to take the time you will find that lengthy discussion about these and other considerations are already available to you on these forums.
Please read them.

If you know just a little about rotary, you will know oil injection system failure will not cause the engine to seize. Blown engine can still turn. You just have no compression on the motor. You should know right away what mazda dealer told you is wrong if you know about rotary engine.

I FEEL that they are wrong.
However, while I have suspicions they are wrong, there is no empirical way to prove that short of tearing down the engine and checking. As they did the engine replacement under warranty, it is THEIR ENGINE, and i do not have that opportunity.
We ASKED them for the chance to look at it for a few days.
I do not believe everything Mazda says, or I would not have started this project in the first place.
I DO know that the reason for MY engine failure was NOT apex seals, and that after the failure the engine still had full compression.
I also know by the behaviour and sounds that SOMETHING had seized. I am inclined to believe it was a bearing, perhaps it was a side seal. I have spoken at length with people who rebuild and upgrade rotary engines for a living, and they feel that the failure can NOT be a oil injection failure, but a component failure, likely a bearing.
The fact that we have full compression proves the apex seals are not gone.

How is running the car at higher altitude going to increase the chance of detonation? Higher altitude means the air density is less. That will make the car run richer, not leaner if the ecu does not compensate for ATM pressure. Engine running at high altitude makes less power. Are you implying engines at high altitude makes more power than sea level and there is more chance of detonation? You also forgot that modern car comes with an ATM pressure sensor so it's going to adjust fuel accordingly.

Thanks for answering yourself.
If we have less air density ( due to altitude, barometric pressure or temperature) then the mix is richer, and the ECU responds by correcting that. The way we are tuning, which is by changing the RELATIVE reference data fed to the ECU allows it to make adjustments for this.
IF we had retuned to static settings then the engine would tend to run poorly if the conditions changed.
Our device reads the MAF and O2, and adjusts the ECU output to compensate dynamically, and to maintain themixtures and timing to suit the conditions.

Yes, I am very concerned, simply because what you are doing is very dangerous. There are a lot of first time rotary owners on board and they don't know anything about rotary. This is the same thing when 3rd gen RX-7 came out. People don't know anything about it and start doing stupid mods and engine blows up. It's good that you are very confident about your product. Are you confident enough to pay for people's blown motor and state that in writing?

Up to now it has been a polite conversation.
I do not consider what we are doing to be "stupid mods".
And by stating various things and demonstrating that you have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, you have now taken this past conversation and into the realm of insults.
At this point I no longer care to discuss this with you.
Take the time to find out more, do a little reading, and get back to me IF and WHEN you care to discuss this with a more polite and informed viewpoint and some common manners.
And Have a Nice Day.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Lock & Load

11-29-2003, 05:50 PM

se3pmaniac

Mate you are a legend (in your own lunchtime )as maurice (canzoomer)has pointed out go take your F.U.D.(fear , uncertainty and disinformation )and shove it up you no were , if you are going to make statements especially towards maurices hard work and research you wont get much symphaty from most forum members who in the last 3 months have followed Canzoomers fine work and totally believe in his product . and extensive research on the rx8 .

Maurice i would not waste your valuable time in responding to unresearched unfounded BULLSHIT .

Maurice ( HELL HAS NO FURY THAN 50 YEAR OLD TO BE KANGARRO 2 WITH OUT HIS STAGE 1 air fuel ignition controller , so please-------- can you send me stage 1 ASAP.

Michael

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 08:08 PM

So you are so sure that the octance gas in Japan is no matter than the one we have in the US? The octane rating is ron+mon / 2. So you are saying Japanese gas is only rated in ron but not the standard ron+mon / 2? If it's not, how do you know what their mon rating is? You just assume is 90 so take (80+100) / 2 gives you 90 octane?

It's funny that you said I have no clue on rotary while I have been doing it for 10 years including tuning cars. How long have you been doing this?

14.1 a/f will be for cruisng. You know why? While cursing, the o2 sensor is in close loop, your a/f reading will oscilate between about 13.5 to 15.5 and 14.1 will fall into that range. You think the o2 sensor on the car runs in open loop or something during cruising?

You said you tested your car at 3000 ft altitude so if it's safe at alttitude, it will be safe. You make it seem like the condition you tested the car is worst than at sea level.

Your mod will be stupid if it does not provide safe tuning. I am not saying your product will not work. I am saying your tuning is dangerous. Like I said, will you be confident to offer to pay for people's blown motor in writing?

Originally posted by canzoomer
No, It is NOT.
They have higher RON # fuel available.
That does NOT translate to higher octane.
In N. America we use a standard for pump gas that is a mixture of the RON index and the anti-knock index.
96RON roughly translates into a 91 octane level fuel using hte N.American ratings standard.
RON ONLY refers to the "Research Octane Number" and has little to do with the "Anti Knock Index"
The two are not identical things.

It is a common myth that the ratings in many foreign ( to us ) locales actually translate to higher octane levels.
If you read through the RX8-club forums and do some searches on the terms "fuel octane" you will find some useful discussiuons where this is detailed very well.
I am NOT going to repeat it (again) here.
To make a long story short you have some misconceptions about octane, detonation(knocking) mixtures, and ignition advance.
Some of us have done our homework and took the time to gain an understanding of this, and some have not.
You fall into the latter catgory.

Please spread your FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt) elsewhere.

No, for that you want around 14.6 to 14.8:1

And YOU do?
I doubt it. In what you have said in this message alone you have fully illustrated that you have absolutely NO CLUE about what you are talking about.
If you do not like what we are doing, so be it, It is a free discussion, and everyone is entitled to their opinions.
All of this has been discussed in a LOT of detail already, and if you care to take the time you will find that lengthy discussion about these and other considerations are already available to you on these forums.
Please read them.

I FEEL that they are wrong.
However, while I have suspicions they are wrong, there is no empirical way to prove that short of tearing down the engine and checking. As they did the engine replacement under warranty, it is THEIR ENGINE, and i do not have that opportunity.
We ASKED them for the chance to look at it for a few days.
I do not believe everything Mazda says, or I would not have started this project in the first place.
I DO know that the reason for MY engine failure was NOT apex seals, and that after the failure the engine still had full compression.
I also know by the behaviour and sounds that SOMETHING had seized. I am inclined to believe it was a bearing, perhaps it was a side seal. I have spoken at length with people who rebuild and upgrade rotary engines for a living, and they feel that the failure can NOT be a oil injection failure, but a component failure, likely a bearing.
The fact that we have full compression proves the apex seals are not gone.

Thanks for answering yourself.
If we have less air density ( due to altitude, barometric pressure or temperature) then the mix is richer, and the ECU responds by correcting that. The way we are tuning, which is by changing the RELATIVE reference data fed to the ECU allows it to make adjustments for this.
IF we had retuned to static settings then the engine would tend to run poorly if the conditions changed.
Our device reads the MAF and O2, and adjusts the ECU output to compensate dynamically, and to maintain themixtures and timing to suit the conditions.

Up to now it has been a polite conversation.
I do not consider what we are doing to be "stupid mods".
And by stating various things and demonstrating that you have NO CLUE about what you are talking about, you have now taken this past conversation and into the realm of insults.
At this point I no longer care to discuss this with you.
Take the time to find out more, do a little reading, and get back to me IF and WHEN you care to discuss this with a more polite and informed viewpoint and some common manners.
And Have a Nice Day.

[/B][/QUOTE]

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 08:18 PM

About octane rating, you can say whatever you want. If I don't see any published data from the Japanese fuel company saying their gas is just about the same as the US one, I can't just take your word for it.

Running 14.1 on a rotary is not safe. You already cruise at 14.1. Don't believe me? Put a o2 bung on the midpipe before the cat and buy a wide band and monitor it yourself. The a/f will oscillate between roughly 15.5 and 13.5. It's closed loop so the computer will try to make it run 14.7 but it will oscillate. You will not get a constant a/f reading when you cruise.

Barometic sensor and atm pressure sensor is the same. Different pressure unit. I can say it's psi sensor if I want as long as it measures atmosphere pressue.

Carzoomer says he tuned his car at 3000 ft altitiute and it's safe at that level. He makes it seem like tuning at 3000 ft altitude is a very harsh condition. It's a harsh condition to get max power but not necessary the harsher condition for the engine. Maybe he should explain more about what he is implying by saying it's tuned at 3000 ft altitude.

Originally posted by Maniac
While I'm sure everyone here is encouraged by your enthusiasm, you should couch your arguments in somewhat less condescending language.
You should also have a better grip on the facts.

Well, by our rating methods, we don't have 100 octane. However, we do have the same octane as the Japanese.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.

The load and stoichiometry are independent. Maximum power is achieved at the leanest A/F ratio you can supply that will not produce knock at maximum VE. Generally, you will want to run slightly richer under most circumstances to protect the engine because a myriad of conditions may exist to move the ratio to the lean side of stoich and a little bit of fuel is cheap compared to a motor rebuild.
BTW - true stoichiometry of gasoline is 15.179. It takes 15.179 kg of air to combust one kg of gasoline. 14.1 is the maximum power figure with some room for safety.

And he has said this very thing over and over again. Read the thread. Canzoomer has realized all along that a bearing failure is likely the real culprit rather than an injection failure.
However, for Mazda, an injection failure is more palatable because a bearing failure is a flawed part while a injection failure is a flawed tolerance. A flawed part requires a recall and an engine teardown. A flawed tolerance only requires a TSB. Much cheaper.

I'm not sure where you got the claim that he would run more power at altitude from this thread (maybe I missed that one), but it is true that higher altitude will knock less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.

BTW - it is a BARO sensor these days. not ATM.

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 08:25 PM

Whatever you say, mate. I have been playing with rotary for 10 years. I am not here trying to sell another ecu mod. I am just saying his tuning is not safe based on my and other rotary owners experience. Like I said, a great device will hurt the engine if it's not tuned properly. That's why they are many people blowing engines using Apex Power FC. You have many rotary shops in Aus. Aus has a lot of fast rotary cars. It shouldn't be too hard for you to hear some of the shops opinions on tuning the a/f to 14.1 and advnacing the timing by a lot. Yeah, mate?

Originally posted by Lock & Load
se3pmaniac

Mate you are a legend (in your own lunchtime )as maurice (canzoomer)has pointed out go take your F.U.D.(fear , uncertainty and disinformation )and shove it up you no were , if you are going to make statements especially towards maurices hard work and research you wont get much symphaty from most forum members who in the last 3 months have followed Canzoomers fine work and totally believe in his product . and extensive research on the rx8 .

Maurice i would not waste your valuable time in responding to unresearched unfounded BULLSHIT .

Maurice ( HELL HAS NO FURY THAN 50 YEAR OLD TO BE KANGARRO 2 WITH OUT HIS STAGE 1 air fuel ignition controller , so please-------- can you send me stage 1 ASAP.

Michael

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 08:34 PM

Whatever I said, I don't mean to be rude. I am just expressing my concern based on the things I read you posted. I will be very concerned if someone can't realize right away oil injection failure does not cause side seal failure. If you really know about rotary, you will catch that right away. You would not have quoted the dealer. It's kind of funny you let the same dealer did the install for you when clearly they had no idea what they are talking about. I guess their mechanic can just drop in the motor without knowing too much about the actual mechanic of rotary.

When I see your a/f tuning and advancing timing, I am even more concerned.

If I am going to buy a product, I want to know it's safe and I will rate it by my experience, not because someone tells me it's all good.

Please provide a table that includes the target a/f ratio in the table format, like the power fc, along with leading ignition timing and trailing ignitiong timing. Best of all, provide the split as well so pepole who don't know how to use excel can clearly see it.

If you think I am just here to insult you, that's fine. You don't have to provide any detail data but trust me, a buyer who has extensive expereince on rotary and rotary tuning will question you the same.

Oh well, good luck on the sales. I guess we will find out in a few weeks.

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 09:12 PM

So what you are saying is that tuning the car at high altitude will knock less so when you bring the same car to sea level, it's likely to knock more? That's one of my cocern and you clearly answered it for me. Thank you.

Originally posted by Maniac
less.
The effect of increasing altitude may be nonlinear. At least one study reported a decrease of the octane requirement of 1.4 RON/300m from sea level to 1800m and 2.5 RON/300m from 1800m to 3600m.
1) Reduced air density provides lower combustion temperature and pressure.
2) Fuel is metered according to air volume, consequently as density decreases the stoichiometry moves to rich, with a lower octane number requirement.
3) Manifold vacuum controlled spark advance, and reduced manifold vacuum results in less spark advance.

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 09:16 PM

I phoned my friend who has a Nissan Skyline and asked him about his expereince with the Japanese gas and US pump gas. He said while his car was in Japan, he could run 18 psi on the 100 Octane pump gas but when he brought it over to CA and use the 91 octane pump gas, he will need to lower the boost to 15 psi with the same ignition and fuel map. That's the MON rating comparsion for you.

Lock & Load

11-29-2003, 09:28 PM

se3 p maniac

I have sent you a private message please read it .

michael

se3pmaniac

11-29-2003, 10:52 PM

Another question I have on your ECU mod is how does it intercept the stock signal and modify it for output? Does it go by a percentage like many piggy backs on the market?

Let's say your ECU mod will take off the fuel by percentage and it does not have any preset fuel injector % map. The final a/f will be affected by the map from the original ECU.

Let's assume that the stock map is running at 11.5 a/f. and you are leaning it out to 13.2 as you said. That means you are taking off 13% of the fuel. If your ECU mod goes by the percentage, another ECU originally comes with a 12.5 a/f map with your ECU mod will get the final a/f at 14.4. Do you know if all the RX8 ECUs from differnet parts of the world come with the same map?

When you tune the car, how do you monitor for knock? Do you have a knock monitor or you intercept the knock sensor signal and monitor for voltage? Did you use an aftermarket knock monitor such as the HKS one or the J&S knock sensor?

Since yours is a piggy back system, I would like to compare it to the Greddy E-manage which sells for only $400 with software that you can tune the ecu with a laptop computer. Do you think your piggy back is better than the Greddy one and why?
Will you be able to offer a version with a reflashable rom that people can use a laptop to tune like the Greddy one. Will it come with dataloggin software like the Greddy one.

compaddict

11-30-2003, 01:12 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Another question I have on your ECU mod is how does it intercept the stock signal and modify it for output? Does it go by a percentage like many piggy backs on the market?

Let's say your ECU mod will take off the fuel by percentage and it does not have any preset fuel injector % map. The final a/f will be affected by the map from the original ECU.

Let's assume that the stock map is running at 11.5 a/f. and you are leaning it out to 13.2 as you said. That means you are taking off 13% of the fuel. If your ECU mod goes by the percentage, another ECU originally comes with a 12.5 a/f map with your ECU mod will get the final a/f at 14.4. Do you know if all the RX8 ECUs from differnet parts of the world come with the same map?

Good question.

Vince

canzoomer

11-30-2003, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by compaddict
Good question.

Vince
The mapping we use is taking the input from more than the MAF.
We also monitor O2.
We set based on the readings from these, from which we adjust the tune map.

Even the e-Manage which was mentioned here has this capability.
However it is not particularly useful for this engine. More on that in a moment.

As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again.

IF the knock sensor is set off, the ECU will go into a fault state, and will have to be cleared of the fault before it will return to normal ECU settings.

Unfortunately the Greddy unit and the e-Tune software for it does not have a preset setting for the MAF used in the RX-8.

It also does not have the ability to deal with an engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder, with different timings for the leading and trailing plugs.

But please tell sep3pmaniac to try this.
I would like to hear how he makes out.

Gord96BRG

11-30-2003, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Don't believe me? Put a o2 bung on the midpipe before the cat and buy a wide band and monitor it yourself.

You sure have a lot to say, especially for someone who hasn't even bothered to read about what you're disputing. If you're so concerned about canzoomer's tuning, you should have read the threads discussing it. Without doing so, you're just talking nonsense. For your information (which has been discussed in several threads), canzoomer DOES have an wideband O2 sensor added to his exhaust and has extensively monitored it and logged it, with just the factory ECU and with his fuel controller mod.

Again - how can you come up with criticisms like this, and expect to be taken seriously? You're full of suggestions as to why canzoomer's research isn't correct, yet you obviously haven't even read how canzoomer did his research. So we're supposed to trust you, when you're repeatedly demonstrating that YOU don't do the basic research required to properly analyse a situation???

Regards,
Gordon

MazdaManiac

11-30-2003, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
I phoned my friend who has a Nissan Skyline and asked him about his expereince with the Japanese gas and US pump gas. He said while his car was in Japan, he could run 18 psi on the 100 Octane pump gas but when he brought it over to CA and use the 91 octane pump gas, he will need to lower the boost to 15 psi with the same ignition and fuel map. That's the MON rating comparsion for you.

Hi. :)

I won"t wast bandwidth here on my credentials or education,
but sufice to say I have already forgotten more on gasoline and combustion than you are likely to ever learn in the first place.
This is NOT meant to be an insult but, rather, and invitation of sorts.
If you want to understand what is going on with your friend's Nissan, drop me a line and I'll explain more thoroughly for your benefit.
However, don't persist being a post-whore here. This is Canzoomer's thread and his forum and should be left as such.

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 09:40 AM

Do you mean your ECU piggy back monitors the stock o2 sensor that if it detects the engine is not running at the target a/f, it's going to enrich the map? So you are saying your ECU mod will let the O2 sensor funtions at closed loop even at full throttle? I do not think the stock o2 sensor is wide band so it will not be accurate to run it at closed loop under full throttle if your ecu mod is capable of doing that.

As for knock sensor, I asked because you said there was no knock during your tuning on the dyno. I wonder how you determined that.

As far as Greddy e manage, Greddy is making a prototype turbo kit for the rx8 and rumor says they are using the e manage to control the map. I personally don't like piggy back. I use standaloe such as power fc.

Originally posted by canzoomer
The mapping we use is taking the input from more than the MAF.
We also monitor O2.
We set based on the readings from these, from which we adjust the tune map.

Even the e-Manage which was mentioned here has this capability.
However it is not particularly useful for this engine. More on that in a moment.

As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again.

IF the knock sensor is set off, the ECU will go into a fault state, and will have to be cleared of the fault before it will return to normal ECU settings.

Unfortunately the Greddy unit and the e-Tune software for it does not have a preset setting for the MAF used in the RX-8.

It also does not have the ability to deal with an engine with 2 spark plugs per cylinder, with different timings for the leading and trailing plugs.

But please tell sep3pmaniac to try this.
I would like to hear how he makes out.

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 09:49 AM

Do you even know what I am referring to? Carzoomer said 14.1 is not for cruising a/f but when car is cruising, it will run in a closed loop and the a/f will oscillate. 14.1 a/f will fall into that range. It's a fact, not criticism. I run wideband o2 sensor on my 3rd gen at all time. Like I said, if you don't believe me, just put a wideband on your car and see it yourself. You can even buy a cheap autometer one and it will show the a/f oscillating when cruising. If you have a volt meter, you can just tap the wires to your o2 sensor and you can see the voltage from the o2 sensor oscillating as well.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
You sure have a lot to say, especially for someone who hasn't even bothered to read about what you're disputing. If you're so concerned about canzoomer's tuning, you should have read the threads discussing it. Without doing so, you're just talking nonsense. For your information (which has been discussed in several threads), canzoomer DOES have an wideband O2 sensor added to his exhaust and has extensively monitored it and logged it, with just the factory ECU and with his fuel controller mod.

Again - how can you come up with criticisms like this, and expect to be taken seriously? You're full of suggestions as to why canzoomer's research isn't correct, yet you obviously haven't even read how canzoomer did his research. So we're supposed to trust you, when you're repeatedly demonstrating that YOU don't do the basic research required to properly analyse a situation???

Regards,
Gordon

compaddict

11-30-2003, 09:57 AM

Se3maniac:

You raise a few good points and you make many bad assumptions. Try asking nice and opening your mind to the possibility that you can ask hard questions and learn something at the same time.

Vince

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 10:01 AM

Wow. Good for you. You don't even know me and you already assume you know more than I do. Please let me know if the Japanese 100 octane gas and the US 91 octane gas have the some anti knock index, why does he need to lower the boost 15 psi to avoid detonation. It's like today I used Shell 91 octane and tomorrow I use 76 91 octane, I have to lower the boost on my car because I am using a different company's gas even though they have the same octane rating?

When I have questions on how his unit works, I am a post whore? All my questions are technical. Instead of bashing me, why don't you prove me wrong with some scientific facts??

How about the knock issue that I thank you for? When you stated the engine is less likely to knock at high altitude, is it more likely to knock at sea level? My conclusion was based on your statement.

Originally posted by Maniac
Hi. :)

I won"t wast bandwidth here on my credentials or education,
but sufice to say I have already forgotten more on gasoline and combustion than you are likely to ever learn in the first place.
This is NOT meant to be an insult but, rather, and invitation of sorts.
If you want to understand what is going on with your friend's Nissan, drop me a line and I'll explain more thoroughly for your benefit.
However, don't persist being a post-whore here. This is Canzoomer's thread and his forum and should be left as such.

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 10:07 AM

If I make bad assumption, please correct me. I don't know why everyone is getting mad. If his unit works, he can simply retune it. Like I said, I am not saying his unit does not work. From I understand, he can offer two different maps to a stock car and a car with midpipe. For sure he can create differnet maps easily.

My only concern is tuning. How about this, will a customer be able to ask for a more conservative tuning with richer mixture and less advance timing.

I am very straight forward and sometime I just type without thinking. If you are a technical person, you should see I am not here to bash any. I just have some concerns need to be answered in a very detaied way. If I am buying something, I want to know how it works inside out. I am a very technical guy. At the same time, I am not an English major so I don't tend to rephrase things nicely. Sorry.

Originally posted by compaddict
Se3maniac:

You raise a few good points and you make many bad assumptions. Try asking nice and opening your mind to the possibility that you can ask hard questions and learn something at the same time.

Vince

compaddict

11-30-2003, 11:30 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
If I make bad assumption, please correct me.

First most assumptions are bad when talking about technical subjects.

It's much easier to read and discuss if you ask questions without assuming something first (or say your assuming to take the edge off).

You ask a few good questions and it would be nice if Maurice could have the space to answer them and not have to waste it correcting your wrong assumptions.

To download the RX-8 tech CD:
ftp://ftp.snikte.net/ login:RX8 and I forget the password! Do a search in the forums!

Vince

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 12:13 PM

Sorry Vince. So far I don't see any of so called assumptions being corrected by canzoomer. The only argument I have with him is the a/f ratio and the ignition timing. My exprience does not agree with his but that's not based on any of assumptions.

The rest are just questions.

1. How does he determine there is no knocking when he tuned the car. What kind of device did he use. I asked this because according my experience, sometimes a rotary engine will not blow right away with detonation. If a car still runs after a dyno session, that does not necessary means there is no knocking on the dyno.

2. Will he be able to provide target a/f and ignition timing tables for people to evaluate.

3. Why does he emphasizes that he tuned the car at 3000 ft altitude. What's his implication behind that.

4. When he said the ECU mod monitors the stock O2, what does that mean? Will the ECU mod unit correct the injection duty cycle based on the stock o2 feed back even at full throttle.

5. Will there be custom tuned ecu based on people's need

6. Will there be a tunable unit available that people can tune the ECU mod unit with a laptop

7. Will there be any written statement to guarantee the safe use of the unit

8. When he said he has been told by other rotary shops that it's safe to tune rotary at 14.1 a/f, who are those shops? I would like to talk to them and share info. Even shops in Japan is ok. I have friends speaking Japanese.

Think of the bright side. If his answers please me who is probably the most anal one on this board, he can please anyone else. :)

BTW, your link is not working.

Originally posted by compaddict
First most assumptions are bad when talking about technical subjects.

It's much easier to read and discuss if you ask questions without assuming something first (or say your assuming to take the edge off).

You ask a few good questions and it would be nice if Maurice could have the space to answer them and not have to waste it correcting your wrong assumptions.

To download the RX-8 tech CD:
ftp://ftp.snikte.net/ login:RX8 and I forget the password! Do a search in the forums!

Vince

compaddict

11-30-2003, 12:37 PM

Like I said you do ask a few good questions and again why is it Maurice's job to correct you when you take a cursory tone and your wrong on top of it?

As far as Maurice's giving out his fuel tables (and timing curves on stage 2 & 3) .. That really is what he is selling and the piggyback is just the means.

You need the password, do a search as I forgot it.

Vince

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 12:58 PM

I seriously don't know what I said wrong. Why can't you just do me a favor and point it out?

I have to disagree with you on the fuel map. His main selling point is the ecu mod, not the map. People can't duplicate his map without his device. You can't even program the device yourself. It's not like that a company is selling a fuel map to you for your standalone unit so their main selling point is the map. Even if people have his map, what can they do with it? But if people really want to copy his stuff, a eletrical engineer with proper equipment shouldn't have a hard time doing it. So either way, he is not at more risk of losing profit by showing the maps to more anal customers.

That link doesn't work. My web browser says "can't find server".
There is no password menu popping out and I don't know how to search for that particular password either.

Originally posted by compaddict
Like I said you do ask a few good questions and again why is it Maurice's job to correct you when you take a cursory tone and your wrong on top of it?

As far as Maurice's giving out his fuel tables (and timing curves on stage 2 & 3) .. That really is what he is selling and the piggyback is just the means.

You need the password, do a search as I forgot it.

Vince

zerohour

11-30-2003, 01:07 PM

I am very interested in the stage 2 kit as well. I do appreciate both parties arguements. I also appreciate the passionate nature of the responses.

That said I strongly feel that by providing a good critical anaylisis of the product without assuming that the person doesnt know what they are talking about would be the most productive approach. That is what you want right?

The product is comming out no matter what. Why not preform the forums function to its fullest and initiate a productive cooperative Q & A instead of a adversarial stand off.

I love this thread so far and im learning a whole hell of a lot from both of you.

Oh by the way on the stage 2 im sure this has been covered in the past but something that was said here kind of confused me. Will the stage 2 need higher than 91 octane? I thought the answer was no but there has been so much talk about this product and words like race fuel now im kinda confused.

Thanks again so much for both of your great arguements and great information.

MazdaManiac

11-30-2003, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Wow. Good for you. You don't even know me and you already assume you know more than I do.

I made no such assumption. You stated a case for which you didn't have the correct information and I do.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Please let me know if the Japanese 100 octane gas and the US 91 octane gas have the some anti knock index, why does he need to lower the boost 15 psi to avoid detonation. It's like today I used Shell 91 octane and tomorrow I use 76 91 octane, I have to lower the boost on my car because I am using a different company's gas even though they have the same octane rating?

Yes.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
When I have questions on how his unit works, I am a post whore? All my questions are technical. Instead of bashing me, why don't you prove me wrong with some scientific facts??

When you answer each post to the thread ad seriatim, you are post-whoring. Try puting all of your ideas and replies into one concise, non-agitated post and you will receive far les flame.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
How about the knock issue that I thank you for? When you stated the engine is less likely to knock at high altitude, is it more likely to knock at sea level? My conclusion was based on your statement.

But that conclusion wasn't the point of my statment.

Lock & Load

11-30-2003, 01:24 PM

se3pmaniac

Even though i am nota tecknical or rotary expert i feel se3pmaniac , has made some wothwhile and valid points , and deserves answer to all his questions , lets not let EGOS get in front off finding out what suits our rx8s first and foremost .
I realize that there no 100% gaurantees but playing it safe is a high pryority in my mind the last thing i want is unnecessary problems with mine or anyones cars .

He deserves to be heard and as we say in oz ( GIVE HIM A FAIR GO MATE).

MICHAEL

Omicron

11-30-2003, 01:37 PM

se3pmaniac -

Before you continue to pelt everyone with questions, please take the time to read the complete thread on Canzoomer's development of the ECU piggybacks:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11614 . Many of your questions will be answered.

As for completely replacing the ECU, it's a bad idea, as if controls far more than just the engine... everything from that to the stereo, gauge cluster, lighting, TPMS, DSC, etc. It's an INCREDIBLY complicated device, and trying to replace it all would be beyond just about anyone but Mazda. If you want to learn more about the ECU and/or PCM, check this thread: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10988

compaddict

11-30-2003, 01:51 PM

se3pmaniac:

Go to the link and then go to "File" then "Login as" in IE. Have you searched for the PW yet?

Vince

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 02:20 PM

So you are saying I have to retune the ecu because I switch different brands of gas with the same octane rating? Please explain further. I am very intrested in hearing this. If your point stands correct, that means any ecu mod will need to be retuned because of switch of gas even at the same octane rating. So does that mean this will apply to the Canzoomer ecu mod as well?

On your knock statement, even though that's not your point but the fact is that your statement concludes a car that's tuned at 3000 ft altitude will be more likely to knock when you bring it down to sea level.

It does not seem to me that you are helping canzoomer. You are doing the opposite by bringing more issues that I have not yet said even though I do not agree with you on the gas issue.

Don't forget you have to consider safety margin into tuning. Why? The maps on the ecu are just points and the final data is based on extrapolation based on those data points. So even with the same gas, you are not going to hit the target a/f every run.

For me, if an engine will make the most power at 12.5 a/f at that particular rpm and manifold pressure, I will enrich it by at least 0.2-0.5 a/f just to be safe depending on the load of the engine. Why do you think the factory makes the car run a little richer than what makes the max HP? Tuning at the edge leaves you no margin for error. That's for race car, not street car.

Originally posted by Maniac
I made no such assumption. You stated a case for which you didn't have the correct information and I do.

Yes.

When you answer each post to the thread ad seriatim, you are post-whoring. Try puting all of your ideas and replies into one concise, non-agitated post and you will receive far les flame.

But that conclusion wasn't the point of my statment.

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 02:30 PM

I will take time to read that thread. Thank you for the link.

As far as standalone ECU, the rx8 one is for sure a lot more complicated than a 3rd gen one. If there is a market for it, APEX will make a standalone by reverse engineering the stock ECU. Their Power FC is always based on the stock ECU. You can even find the spare components from your stock ecu. You don't really need a standalone if you are just doing basic mods. I prefer standalone on the 3rd gen rx7 because there is no piggy back system or rom tuning that can do the job of supporting 450+ rwhp and I can datalog all the data and hook up a wideband o2 sensor with it. I run wideband o2 on the car permanently. That's how important I think tuning is.

Originally posted by Omicron
se3pmaniac -

Before you continue to pelt everyone with questions, please take the time to read the complete thread on Canzoomer's development of the ECU piggybacks:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11614 . Many of your questions will be answered.

As for completely replacing the ECU, it's a bad idea, as if controls far more than just the engine... everything from that to the stereo, gauge cluster, lighting, TPMS, DSC, etc. It's an INCREDIBLY complicated device, and trying to replace it all would be beyond just about anyone but Mazda. If you want to learn more about the ECU and/or PCM, check this thread: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10988

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 02:36 PM

Sorry dude. I never used ftp with browser so I don't know how to access it. When I clicked on the link, my browser just said "can't find server" I don't know where to search for the password and type what to search for the password either.

Originally posted by compaddict
se3pmaniac:

Go to the link and then go to "File" then "Login as" in IE. Have you searched for the PW yet?

Vince

Omicron

11-30-2003, 04:28 PM

I will take time to read that thread. Thank you for the link.You bet.

You don't really need a standalone if you are just doing basic mods. My point exactly.

MazdaManiac

11-30-2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
So you are saying I have to retune the ecu because I switch different brands of gas with the same octane rating? Please explain further. I am very intrested in hearing this. If your point stands correct, that means any ecu mod will need to be retuned because of switch of gas even at the same octane rating. So does that mean this will apply to the Canzoomer ecu mod as well?

Every brand has a different additive package.
However, what is more important is the level of oxygenates mandated by the state in which that the gasoline is sold and that of the state in which it is refined as their main purpose is to reduce emissions.
Oxygenates increase the AKI, but reduce the total energy content in the fuel. How much both sides of this formula are affected depends on which oxygenates are used. Methanol (the most common) only has an energy content of 19.95 MJ/kg but is composed of 49.9% oxygen. At the other end of the spectrum is TAME with a 36.28 MJ/kg, but only has a 15.7% O2 content. Each manufacturer and each refiner will blend to conform to each state and its laws. Add to that the fact that many gasoline vendors buy gas from consolidators and store gas for long periods (against their agreements with the labels) of time means that gasoline composition will vary wildly from station to station.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
On your knock statement, even though that's not your point but the fact is that your statement concludes a car that's tuned at 3000 ft altitude will be more likely to knock when you bring it down to sea level.

But the car isn't "tuned" for 3000 ft. The ECU will tune itself to whatever altitude at which it finds itself. Canzoomer's box is there to remove a large quantity of the margin that Mazda built into the system to extend the life of the catalytic converter. Mazda added a huge amount of fuel to preserve the catalytic converter because of "Draconian" emissions laws in the US.
The fact that he lives or works at 3000 ft is irrelevant.
You need to read the rest of the thread.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
It does not seem to me that you are helping canzoomer. You are doing the opposite by bringing more issues that I have not yet said even though I do not agree with you on the gas issue.

I have no vested interest in Canzoomers ECU box. However, I do have a vested interest in ending ignorant statements like many that you have made here.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Don't forget you have to consider safety margin into tuning. Why? The maps on the ecu are just points and the final data is based on extrapolation based on those data points. So even with the same gas, you are not going to hit the target a/f every run. (italics are mine)

Hmm... I wonder why? Are you just playing ignorant here for the sake of the whole "Devil's Advocate" role, or do you just not listen to yourself.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
For me, if an engine will make the most power at 12.5 a/f at that particular rpm and manifold pressure, I will enrich it by at least 0.2-0.5 a/f just to be safe depending on the load of the engine. Why do you think the factory makes the car run a little richer than what makes the max HP? Tuning at the edge leaves you no margin for error. That's for race car, not street car.

Excellent. That is good work and good technique. So this is the whole point - you need to tune to a point that is consistent with the the type of enviroment in which the vehicle will be used and the fuel available.
Since most of us need to run everyday on street swill, you need to tune short of the ragged edge.
Fortunately for us, the RX-8 is a LONG way from the ragged edge because of the cat issue.

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 08:23 PM

Good job for calling me ignorant. It seems like you have both short term memory and really have no experience on tuning high HP cars.

1. You brought the whole knock issue upon yourself. I said Japanese gas has more knock resistance and you said no. And later on you said the knock resistance will vary even with the same octane rating of gas from different manufacturers. So surprisingly your two statements don't agree.

Japanese gas = US gas = yes
91 octane shell gas = 91 octane 76 gas = no
:confused: :confused:

2. Even if the ECU self tunes, it's going to self tune it to the target a/f. Let's say the ECU at high altitude is tuned for 13.2 a/f and there was no knock. At sea level, the ECU will give it more fuel to compensate the higher air density and still try to run at 13.2 a/f. But based on your statement, the car is less likely to knock at high altitude so when you bring it down to sea level, it's more likely to knock. Not becuase of the a/f being different but simply because the knock resistant requirement is different.

3. Have you ever put your car on the dyno and datalog the a/f? If you have, you will realize every runs a/f curve will not overlap exactly. There is going to be up and down because there isn't unlimited data points in the ecu map to tell the injector to fire at every point. It's based on extrapolation. If you have used a standalone ecu, you will understand this concept.

Now who is ignorant?

You clearly don't even know where you stand. Opposite arguments come from your same mouth and you call other people ignorant? Good job, you are more of a man now on top of your education background that you pretend not to brag about.

It's pretty common that when a person has nothing to offer, he tends to call people names or put them down to make himself seem more right. You can prove me wrong without calling me names. Did I call you names?

Oh yeah, you should stop quoting numbers from your text book or whatever you are using. You need to know the concept, not just quoting a bunch of numbers so you don't accidentally slap your own face.

Originally posted by Maniac
Every brand has a different additive package.
However, what is more important is the level of oxygenates mandated by the state in which that the gasoline is sold and that of the state in which it is refined as their main purpose is to reduce emissions.
Oxygenates increase the AKI, but reduce the total energy content in the fuel. How much both sides of this formula are affected depends on which oxygenates are used. Methanol (the most common) only has an energy content of 19.95 MJ/kg but is composed of 49.9% oxygen. At the other end of the spectrum is TAME with a 36.28 MJ/kg, but only has a 15.7% O2 content. Each manufacturer and each refiner will blend to conform to each state and its laws. Add to that the fact that many gasoline vendors buy gas from consolidators and store gas for long periods (against their agreements with the labels) of time means that gasoline composition will vary wildly from station to station.

But the car isn't "tuned" for 3000 ft. The ECU will tune itself to whatever altitude at which it finds itself. Canzoomer's box is there to remove a large quantity of the margin that Mazda built into the system to extend the life of the catalytic converter. Mazda added a huge amount of fuel to preserve the catalytic converter because of "Draconian" emissions laws in the US.
The fact that he lives or works at 3000 ft is irrelevant.
You need to read the rest of the thread.

I have no vested interest in Canzoomers ECU box. However, I do have a vested interest in ending ignorant statements like many that you have made here.

(italics are mine)

Hmm... I wonder why? Are you just playing ignorant here for the sake of the whole "Devil's Advocate" role, or do you just not listen to yourself.

Excellent. That is good work and good technique. So this is the whole point - you need to tune to a point that is consistent with the the type of enviroment in which the vehicle will be used and the fuel available.
Since most of us need to run everyday on street swill, you need to tune short of the ragged edge.
Fortunately for us, the RX-8 is a LONG way from the ragged edge because of the cat issue.

Omicron

11-30-2003, 08:57 PM

Ok folks, the technical portions of this discussion have merit, but the name calling and insults will not fly. Please stick to the technical.

Clear enough? Thanks...

MazdaManiac

11-30-2003, 09:03 PM

OK, you need to take a step back and stop merely spouting what you believe true and using bits and pieces of unrelated info from elsewhere to support your statements..

Then, you need to look up and really understand these logical fallacies:

False Dilemma
Ad Hominem
False Analogy
Fallacy of Exclusion
Post Hoc
Begging the Question
Affirming the Consequent

At some point, you have fallen into all of these and it would do you good to understand them and avoid them.
False Analogy is a big one - you have taken points proven on different grounds and attempted to equate them in proof because they have similar terms instead of similar grounds. That is illogical.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Japanese gas = US gas = yes
91 octane shell gas = 91 octane 76 gas = no

That is a good example. Both of those statements are true, yet you attempt to negate them using their own truths as periphrasis.
These are not equitable statements and they were not stated as such.
Please revisit the thread.

Your statement #2 just doesn't make sense because I don't think you fully understand the concept of an A/F target.
If you tune for an A/F target, it will remain the same regardless of the BARO reading. Timing will compensate because of the BARO and IAT and you will be just as knock free at any altitude.
The problem arises if you don not know how to hold an A/F against the other variables. If Canzoomer's box can do that (there is no real reason why it shouldn't), then it will not knock anywhere.

#3 is just loose tuning. The A/F plots on all of my dyno charts were near duplicates once we were satisfied with the tuning. They should only vary if you change inputs or if your installation is undisciplined or improper.

Of course, if you actually read what I stated, I never called you ignorant as you did me. I asked a question, for which you supplied a somewhat less than succinct answer.

Please, don't attempt to get into a semantics debate here. We should move to the lounge for that if you would like.
Check my site and you will find all of my data and information on how combustion works, octane, AKI, EFI management and other really interesting things.

Gord96BRG

11-30-2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
I will take time to read that thread. Thank you for the link.

As far as standalone ECU, the rx8 one is for sure a lot more complicated than a 3rd gen one. If there is a market for it, APEX will make a standalone by reverse engineering the stock ECU. Their Power FC is always based on the stock ECU. You can even find the spare components from your stock ecu. You don't really need a standalone if you are just doing basic mods. I prefer standalone on the 3rd gen rx7 because there is no piggy back system or rom tuning that can do the job of supporting 450+ rwhp and I can datalog all the data and hook up a wideband o2 sensor with it. I run wideband o2 on the car permanently. That's how important I think tuning is.

It's pretty obvious that you still haven't read that thread. I also don't know why you're still beating the knock issue - that horse was dead a loooonng time ago. Canzoomer did reply to you about that:As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again. Since you're too busy trying to make yourself sound important to actually read the threads you've been directed to with details, or to even read the responses given to your questions, let me paraphrase: Canzoomer's tuning is not running anywhere near the knock limit. He obviously understands the implications of knock, and the limitations of knock sensors, and says so in his reply.

You also imply that Mazda has tuned for max power then included a safety margin on a/f, yet all the rest of us know that that's not true at all. IF you had bothered to read the threads we keep referring you to, then you'd know that the RX-8 runs waaaay too rich because of the 2004 catalytic converter durability requirements. They actually richened up the mixture enough to lose about 25 peak hp from their original (safe, with safety margin) tuning. ALL canzoomer is doing is re-tuning to get back the power Mazda originally tuned it to have.

Will you PLEASE go read those threads BEFORE you write anything else, and make yourself look yet more silly??? You still don't have any understanding of the RX-8 issues - it's nice that you have rotary experience, but the RX-8 is different. Why not try to understand the differences before you start (continue) preaching to us anymore?

Regards,
Gordon

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 10:45 PM

1. Both statements can't be true at the same time. While you said the the knock ratings of the 91 octane gas vary among different manufacturers, how can you generalize the Japanese gas has the same knock resistance as the US gas while the US gas vary among themselves already. Tell me where the logic is.

2. I clearly stated that the a/f will be the same regarless of altitude on assumptions that the ECU will compensate for altitude correctly. My response was based on your statement that the engine is less likely to knock at high altitude. You said that youself, not me. I fully understand the igntion timing vs manifold pressure issue. You left that out in your very first statement. Not me. Maybe before you make any statement, you should include all the other background info and assumptions. Besides that, you forgot that the the rx8 does use a MAP sensor that monitors manifold pressure. The fuel and ignition maps are not pressure vs rpm but air flow meter voltage vs rpm. It's unlikely that the ECU will self-correct for ignition timing if it does not monitor the manifold pressure. You can say that the ECU will compensate for igntion timing by absolute ATM pressure sensor but very unlikely. I can tell you why if you don't agree.

3. Like you said, "near duplicate" but not exactly. That's my point. That's why you need a 0.2 to 0.5 a/f safety margin depending on the map resolution (size of the map table). Why don't you do me a favor and show me your dyno plot with a/f logging that shows the a/f does not have more than 0.2 a/f variation between two curves.

4. Wow, maybe I am hallucinating. You clearly stated that I made "ignorant statements". What does that imply? On the contrary, I didn't say you are ignorant. I asked "Now who is ignorant."

I am not here to debate you although it's interesting. I am here to get my answers from carzoomer.

About your site, it's cool that you find time to post info by Bruce Hamilton so people don't have to search for it.

Originally posted by Maniac
OK, you need to take a step back and stop merely spouting what you believe true and using bits and pieces of unrelated info from elsewhere to support your statements..

Then, you need to look up and really understand these logical fallacies:

False Dilemma
Ad Hominem
False Analogy
Fallacy of Exclusion
Post Hoc
Begging the Question
Affirming the Consequent

At some point, you have fallen into all of these and it would do you good to understand them and avoid them.
False Analogy is a big one - you have taken points proven on different grounds and attempted to equate them in proof because they have similar terms instead of similar grounds. That is illogical.

That is a good example. Both of those statements are true, yet you attempt to negate them using their own truths as periphrasis.
These are not equitable statements and they were not stated as such.
Please revisit the thread.

Your statement #2 just doesn't make sense because I don't think you fully understand the concept of an A/F target.
If you tune for an A/F target, it will remain the same regardless of the BARO reading. Timing will compensate because of the BARO and IAT and you will be just as knock free at any altitude.
The problem arises if you don not know how to hold an A/F against the other variables. If Canzoomer's box can do that (there is no real reason why it shouldn't), then it will not knock anywhere.

#3 is just loose tuning. The A/F plots on all of my dyno charts were near duplicates once we were satisfied with the tuning. They should only vary if you change inputs or if your installation is undisciplined or improper.

Of course, if you actually read what I stated, I never called you ignorant as you did me. I asked a question, for which you supplied a somewhat less than succinct answer.

Please, don't attempt to get into a semantics debate here. We should move to the lounge for that if you would like.
Check my site and you will find all of my data and information on how combustion works, octane, AKI, EFI management and other really interesting things.

se3pmaniac

11-30-2003, 11:05 PM

Gordan. Thank you for your concern but obviously you really don't know what I was referring to. Let me make it simple for you one more time.

1. About knock issue, I AM NOT asking carzoomer how he is going to take care of the knock issue if there is any. The stock ECU does that automatically. I am asking him how he deterimes there was no knock when he tuned the car. Those are totally different issues. Yeah? HKS knock sensor is not used to retard the ignition timing. It's merely a device for you to listen for knock. It does not even do anything to your stock timing. If he says he is not tuning it to close to knock limit, I would like to know how he determines that and by what device. Just like if I tell you I tune this ECU to a very safe a/f, would you like to know how I determines the a/f? A wideband o2? stock o2? exhaust temp? I am merely asking what the device he is using. Please don't misquote me.

About the argument with Maniac, he brought it upon himself. I didn't even started that "engine at high altitude will knock less" at the first place.

2. Mazda does tune the a/f to a safe margin and most car manufacturers too. Remember warranty? They simply do that to reduce chance of warranty claim. If you simply think it's just for the cat, you are too naive.

3. I have rotary experience and I also have a rx8. What makes you think I have no idea about a rx8? Rotary is a rotary. When you say this renesis motor is a complete different animal, that's very naive of you. My finidng on the a/f is different than carzoomer's but let's not bring that in right now.

4. I am not here to preach. I read that thread before but 28 pages is a lot of info. It's hard to filter out all the unuseful info and that's why I came to this thread to ask the maker directly. Cool?

If you think the questions I asked are all junk, you can simply just ignore me. Yeah? If you assume all the people with prior rotary experience don't know anything about rx8 and renesis, that will be a very sad thing to say.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
It's pretty obvious that you still haven't read that thread. I also don't know why you're still beating the knock issue - that horse was dead a loooonng time ago. Canzoomer did reply to you about that: Since you're too busy trying to make yourself sound important to actually read the threads you've been directed to with details, or to even read the responses given to your questions, let me paraphrase: Canzoomer's tuning is not running anywhere near the knock limit. He obviously understands the implications of knock, and the limitations of knock sensors, and says so in his reply.

You also imply that Mazda has tuned for max power then included a safety margin on a/f, yet all the rest of us know that that's not true at all. IF you had bothered to read the threads we keep referring you to, then you'd know that the RX-8 runs waaaay too rich because of the 2004 catalytic converter durability requirements. They actually richened up the mixture enough to lose about 25 peak hp from their original (safe, with safety margin) tuning. ALL canzoomer is doing is re-tuning to get back the power Mazda originally tuned it to have.

Will you PLEASE go read those threads BEFORE you write anything else, and make yourself look yet more silly??? You still don't have any understanding of the RX-8 issues - it's nice that you have rotary experience, but the RX-8 is different. Why not try to understand the differences before you start (continue) preaching to us anymore?

Regards,
Gordon

MazdaManiac

11-30-2003, 11:45 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
1. Both statements can't be true at the same time. While you said the the knock ratings of the 91 octane gas vary among different manufacturers, how can you generalize the Japanese gas has the same knock resistance as the US gas while the US gas vary among themselves already. Tell me where the logic is.

Never said any such thing. I said:

Originally posted by Maniac
Well, by our rating methods, we don't have 100 octane. However, we do have the same octane as the Japanese.
In Japan, they only use the RON number for the AKI. In North America, we use an average of the RON and MON numbers for AKI. Typical premium fuel has a RON of 100 and a MON of 84.
100 + 84 /2 = 92
92 octane is typical premium fuel.
In other words - North American 92 octane is equivalent to Japanese 100 octane because it is rated differently.

That is OCTANE not KNOCK RESISTANCE. Try again.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
2. I clearly stated that the a/f will be the same regarless of altitude on assumptions that the ECU will compensate for altitude correctly. My response was based on your statement that the engine is less likely to knock at high altitude. You said that youself, not me. I fully understand the igntion timing vs manifold pressure issue. You left that out in your very first statement. Not me.

So, you assumed that the ECU will will compensate for BARO, but it was too far of a reach for you to realize that you aren't the only one to understand that ignition timing is controled by the ECU as a response to the same subset of sensors? Incomprehensible.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Maybe before you make any statement, you should include all the other background info and assumptions.

Uh, yeah. See above.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Besides that, you forgot that the the rx8 does use a MAP sensor that monitors manifold pressure.

No, it doesn't. It uses a MAF sensor. A MAP sensor measures pressure. A MAF sensor measures flow.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
The fuel and ignition maps are not pressure vs rpm but air flow meter voltage vs rpm.

That is correct. So why did you say MAP instead of MAF above?
Because:

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
It's unlikely that the ECU will self-correct for ignition timing if it does not monitor the manifold pressure.

...you don't understand the difference.

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
You can say that the ECU will compensate for igntion timing by absolute ATM pressure sensor but very unlikely. I can tell you why if you don't agree.

Because it also has BARO and IAT to compare to RPM and MAF? I don't know. Maybe a guess? (that was sarcasm - I know it doesn't translate)

Absolute flow and manifold pressure are not the same thing. The ECU will compute the density of the intake charge (density is what it really needs to know) based on the measurement from the airflow meter as referenced to the IAT, TPS and BARO sensor.
Manifold pressure isn't of any particular use in a sub-atmospheric engine, especially if the BARO sensor is present.

emack

11-30-2003, 11:49 PM

Man, sometimes its good to be just plain ignorant about all this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MazdaManiac

11-30-2003, 11:55 PM

Originally posted by emack
Man, sometimes its good to be just plain ignorant about all this stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Indeed!
Were se3pmaniac only able to feel similarly! :p

Gord96BRG

12-01-2003, 12:13 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
1. ...I would like to know how he determines that and by what device. Just like if I tell you I tune this ECU to a very safe a/f, would you like to know how I determines the a/f? A wideband o2? stock o2? exhaust temp? I am merely asking what the device he is using. Please don't misquote me.

Canzoomer has written about his wideband tuning, I told you that canzoomer used a wideband sensor in his exhaust system for tuning, yet you still ignore that and talk about you using a wideband O2 sensor like it's something mysterious. Get over it! You're not the only one, it's being done by canzoomer already. We've told you this, it's documented in multiple threads.

2. Mazda does tune the a/f to a safe margin and most car manufacturers too. Remember warranty? They simply do that to reduce chance of warranty claim. If you simply think it's just for the cat, you are too naive.

Right here, you're displaying a complete lack of knowledge about the RX-8. Do you have any idea or knowledge of the rated horsepower issue? Do you know that the engine was originally rated by Mazda for North America at 247 hp? THAT was their warranty safe, a/f to a safe margin, tuning. Do you know that the engine was de-tuned at port by an ECU flash to an announced rating of 238 hp (but strongly suspected by many to be more like 225 hp or so)? It would seem that you are completely ignorant (and the word means unaware, without knowledge of) of the reasons for Mazda de-tuning the engine. I guess you didn't know that they've officially acknowledged that the de-tuning was specifically for catalytic converter longevity, and canzoomers own testing has confirmed the likelyhood of that.

3. I have rotary experience and I also have a rx8. What makes you think I have no idea about a rx8? Rotary is a rotary. When you say this renesis motor is a complete different animal, that's very naive of you. My finidng on the a/f is different than carzoomer's but let's not bring that in right now.

Since you're obviously unaware of the horsepower rating issues and the reasons for the de-tuning (and probably unaware of the dyno testing controversies too, right?), then it's pretty safe to say that you don't even know what canzoomer is trying to achieve, that you don't know WHY the RX-8 a/f ratios are waaaaay too rich, and so on. THAT is what makes me say that you have no idea about how the RX-8 is tuned from the factory (or should we say, from the port)!!!! Because you have exhibited over and over in this thread that you don't. I'm not guessing, just stating what you have made obvious.

But, instead of actually reading and trying to understand what is going on and why the canzoomer ecu mod exists, you're too busy trying to show us how much you know. It's not working, what you're showing us is that you can't be bothered to learn what this RX-8 community already knows, you just want to show off and be a big shot favouring us with your knowledge from the RX-7 world. A rotary ISN'T just a rotary - the RX-8 has different control systems, different factory ECU, different and new emissions control requirements (including cat converter life). YOU should not presume that what applied to RX-7s automatically applies to RX-8s.

Regards,
Gordon

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 01:05 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
The rest are just questions.

1. How does he determine there is no knocking when he tuned the car. What kind of device did he use. I asked this because according my experience, sometimes a rotary engine will not blow right away with detonation. If a car still runs after a dyno session, that does not necessary means there is no knocking on the dyno.

By monitoring the knock sensor and logging.

2. Will he be able to provide target a/f and ignition timing tables for people to evaluate.

We are providing the pre-programmed A/F on the Stage1 kit, and this plus ignition on Stage2. We are not about to hand over our tuning maps for free. Other tunre do not either, so this is not unusual. It is these maps that comprise a major part of the work we have done.

3. Why does he emphasizes that he tuned the car at 3000 ft altitude. What's his implication behind that.

You are reading a bit too much into that. It is simply a fact of our geography that we are at 3,000 foot altitude.
We are also in a location where we see radical temperature changes and extremes.
The main context where I mention the altitude in at least a couple of cases is where I was asked what our raw baseline dyno horsepower readings were, and I pointed out that the altitude costs us about 10HP compared to sea level.
It also makes the mixture different than sea level.
The dyno we use (Mustang) is equipped with a baromtric sensor, so that it can provide both raw data and adjusted for the current air pressure.
When i have stated that the improvement for power output is around 20-25HP, we take into account the air pressure, temperature, and so on.
Another example of this is testing outdoors with a GTech Pro Comp.
We see a 6-7HP improvement in power out put when testing at 35F as compared to similar tests at 75F.

4. When he said the ECU mod monitors the stock O2, what does that mean? Will the ECU mod unit correct the injection duty cycle based on the stock 2 feed back even at full throttle.

It can and does.

5. Will there be custom tuned ecu based on people's need

Perhaps, later, for a fee.

6. Will there be a tunable unit available that people can tune the ECU mod unit with a laptop

Yes. Also later. For now we are not trying to bite off toomuch at one time. We are focusing on the Stage1, getting it out in volume, and supporting it. In another week or so we will be putting a lot more time into Stage2, which is our more radical tune setup. In this we will be paying more attention to more responsive knock sensing, as we will be approaching that threshold. With Stage1 we are well away from the settings that could produce that.
Bear in mind that the stock RX-8 can run on 87 octane knock free.
With our Stage1 we recommend using at least 89 octane, preferably 91.
With Stage2, it will REQUIRE 91 or higher.

7. Will there be any written statement to guarantee the safe use of the unit

We wil gurantee that the unit has been tested on several otherwise stock RX-8's plus on two with exhaust upgrades.
That is one of the last steps we are no working on , just to make sure there are no surprises.
We can not guarantee that the user will not do something else to blow up their car, nor can we guarantee engines, as there have been enough stock ones that have broken to make that approach foolhardy. For example if somebody buys a tank of 87 or lower octane and runs the hell out of their car, we can not guarantee that something bad might happen.
OTOH, the Renesis can survive some knock or ping, so anyone with a bit of common sense who hears that should back off immediately and find the source of the problem.
We do say that used and installed as recommended it will not cause an engine failure, and we will guarantee that.
In other words our warranty is limited to the application of our product.

8. When he said he has been told by other rotary shops that it's safe to tune rotary at 14.1 a/f, who are those shops? I would like to talk to them and share info. Even shops in Japan is ok. I have friends speaking Japanese.

Sorry, but that is getting a bit past the point of this discussion.
If you want to call me and talk about this I would be more than happy. 780-456-1510 9-5 Mountain Time zone.
I would very much appreciate if you woul do this, as a lot can be discussed and explained a lot better than in this fashion.
We are not running a 14:1 mix in WOT conditions on Stage1.
We are running around 13.2 to 13:4 at 6,000rpm and higher.
14:1 WOULD necessitate running 91 octane or higher ALL the time, and that is not the goal.
When you say "safe" I mean that it ha been done successfully.
It is also highly dependant on ignition timing. A comobination of too lean and too much advance will increase temperatures. That can cause detonation to occur more readily.

Think of the bright side. If his answers please me who is probably the most anal one on this board, he can please anyone else. :)

I do not mind anal.
I DO mind bluntly insulting comments.
We are certainly not claiming to be perfect, but we have put and will continue to put a LOT of work into this, and I will not accept somebody coming along and slamming us with no good reason.
I do not feel that I have said or done anything to give you cause to insult me.

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 01:10 AM

1. So octane rating is not corrleated to knock resistance in any ways? So higher octane rating does not necessary mean higher knock resistance? octane = (RON+MON)/2. MON is clearly part of the equation. I guess we are just wasting money buying racing gas which has higher octane rating. It does not necessary offers any knock resistance.

2. I mean the rx8 does NOT use the MAP sensor. A simple typo which you can tell from the rest of my statement. Don't play games.

3. MAF along with BAR or ATM, and intake temp sensor can dertermine how much mass/time is going into the motor but that does not mean it can also dertermine the right igntion timing from there. You are still ignoring the fact that a thiner desity air will require less knock resistance. So you are saying the absolute mass/time and rpm is enough to dertermine the right ignition timing? Please tell me how ECU is construction a ignition map based on RPM, Bar, Intake Temp, and air flow.

4. A lot of older cars use manifold pressure (MAP) and Bar/ATM sensor together. I heard some cars do have all 3.

Originally posted by Maniac
Never said any such thing. I said:

That is OCTANE not KNOCK RESISTANCE. Try again.

So, you assumed that the ECU will will compensate for BARO, but it was too far of a reach for you to realize that you aren't the only one to understand that ignition timing is controled by the ECU as a response to the same subset of sensors? Incomprehensible.

Uh, yeah. See above.

No, it doesn't. It uses a MAF sensor. A MAP sensor measures pressure. A MAF sensor measures flow.

That is correct. So why did you say MAP instead of MAF above?
Because:

...you don't understand the difference.

Because it also has BARO and IAT to compare to RPM and MAF? I don't know. Maybe a guess? (that was sarcasm - I know it doesn't translate)

Absolute flow and manifold pressure are not the same thing. The ECU will compute the density of the intake charge (density is what it really needs to know) based on the measurement from the airflow meter as referenced to the IAT, TPS and BARO sensor.
Manifold pressure isn't of any particular use in a sub-atmospheric engine, especially if the BARO sensor is present.

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 01:18 AM

Gordan:

You are misunderstanding me big time. I am not questioning how he got his a/f ratio. I am questioning how he determines there was no knock. I use that example merely for why I need to know what he uses to determine there is no knock and by what device to see if the dertermination is valid. Got it?

As far as the HP issue, I am fully aware of that. My car got 187 rwhp and I datalog the a/f.

A rotary is a rotary. That statement stands true. All the other factors are peripheral. It's like I use a different ECU to tune the same car but the final goal is the same.

I am not showing off how much I know. I am just sharing. If you want to take it the wrong way, it's your call.

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Canzoomer has written about his wideband tuning, [b]I told you that canzoomer used a wideband sensor in his exhaust system for tuning, yet you still ignore that and talk about you using a wideband O2 sensor like it's something mysterious. Get over it! You're not the only one, it's being done by canzoomer already. We've told you this, it's documented in multiple threads.

Right here, you're displaying a complete lack of knowledge about the RX-8. Do you have any idea or knowledge of the rated horsepower issue? Do you know that the engine was originally rated by Mazda for North America at 247 hp? THAT was their warranty safe, a/f to a safe margin, tuning. Do you know that the engine was de-tuned at port by an ECU flash to an announced rating of 238 hp (but strongly suspected by many to be more like 225 hp or so)? It would seem that you are completely ignorant (and the word means unaware, without knowledge of) of the reasons for Mazda de-tuning the engine. I guess you didn't know that they've officially acknowledged that the de-tuning was specifically for catalytic converter longevity, and canzoomers own testing has confirmed the likelyhood of that.

[B]

Since you're obviously unaware of the horsepower rating issues and the reasons for the de-tuning (and probably unaware of the dyno testing controversies too, right?), then it's pretty safe to say that you don't even know what canzoomer is trying to achieve, that you don't know WHY the RX-8 a/f ratios are waaaaay too rich, and so on. THAT is what makes me say that you have no idea about how the RX-8 is tuned from the factory (or should we say, from the port)!!!! Because you have exhibited over and over in this thread that you don't. I'm not guessing, just stating what you have made obvious.

But, instead of actually reading and trying to understand what is going on and why the canzoomer ecu mod exists, you're too busy trying to show us how much you know. It's not working, what you're showing us is that you can't be bothered to learn what this RX-8 community already knows, you just want to show off and be a big shot favouring us with your knowledge from the RX-7 world. A rotary ISN'T just a rotary - the RX-8 has different control systems, different factory ECU, different and new emissions control requirements (including cat converter life). YOU should not presume that what applied to RX-7s automatically applies to RX-8s.

Regards,
Gordon

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 01:29 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
1. So octane rating is not corrleated to knock resistance in any ways? So higher octane rating does not necessary mean higher knock resistance? octane = (RON+MON)/2. MON is clearly part of the equation. I guess we are just wasting money buying racing gas which has higher octane rating. It does not necessary offers any knock resistance.

2. I mean the rx8 does NOT use the MAP sensor. A simple typo which you can tell from the rest of my statement. Don't play games.

3. MAF along with BAR or ATM, and intake temp sensor can dertermine how much mass/time is going into the motor but that does not mean it can also dertermine the right igntion timing from there. You are still ignoring the fact that a thiner desity air will require less knock resistance. So you are saying the absolute mass/time and rpm is enough to dertermine the right ignition timing? Please tell me how ECU is construction a ignition map based on RPM, Bar, Intake Temp, and air flow.

4. A lot of older cars use manifold pressure (MAP) and Bar/ATM sensor together. I heard some cars do have all 3.

1) No. You are distorting things a bit.
What was said is that in N.America the combined index ratings are deetermined by a different formula than what is used in many locations overseas.
For example in Japan they use RON rating, while here they use the combimed index.
Since you are now quoting the method used, you apparently have been reading up a bit on this.
Higher octane levels will allow one to run a leaner micture with less chance of detonation/knock/pinging.
They do NOT guarantee higher power levels, as the octane anti-knock index rating may be achieved with additives that make less specific power than gasoline.
For example the addition of ethanol raises the anti-knock index, but reduces the power available in the fuel.

It IS a waste of time and money to buy a higher octane rated fuel than you need, however.
You need high enopugh to prevent knock. Anything higher does not gain you anything, other than higher cost.
IF you run a higher anti-knock index fule, and IF it is made that way by the use of additives that are the same or higher potential energy, then you CAN lean your mixture, and thereby make more power.
Simply using higher octane fuel than needed IS a waste of money.

2) I do not know what you refer to by "games"
The RX-8 uses a MAF, not a MAP, and an O2 ( 2 actually)

3) WE ARE NOT ADJUSTING IGNIOTION TIMING ON THE STAGE1 KIT!!!

There, is that CLEAR NOW?

On Stage2 we will be.
Yes, it is affected by the BAR sensor too.

4) Yes, some older cars did do that.
Perhaps some still do.
So??

I fail to get the point of your statement. Is it some form of question?

MazdaManiac

12-01-2003, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by canzoomer

I fail to get the point of your statement. Is it some form of question?
I think he was trying to beat on my head, not yours Maurice.:)

MazdaManiac

12-01-2003, 01:38 AM

Gasoline engines of all types are driven by the same process - combustion.

Combustion is the rapid release of energy from a fuel - in this case gasoline.
A finite quantity of gasoline contains an equally finite amount of energy, which can be released by combining it with a specific quantity of oxygen at an absolute ratio.
1 kilogram of gasoline contains 43 megajoules of energy that can be released via oxygen at a ratio of 1:15.179 (a ratio referred to as "stoichiomentric"). That is about 41,700 BTUs. Plenty.
The trick with an internal combustion engine (ICE), whether it be rotary or other wise, is to control that combustion in space and time.
We do this by causing the combustion process to occur in the combustion chamber at a precise time and OVER a precise quantity of time to convert that heat into torque.
To effect this level of control, we must take a fixed quantity of space (about 650 ml in the case of the 13b-MSP), fill it with a quantity of gas and air as proscribed by the above ratio, compress it to a precise degree and ignite it at precisely the right time as to cause the maximum pressure increase resultant from that combustion to occur at the time of maximum delta for the combustion chamber's swept cyclic volume (that is to say at the precise moment that the combustion chamber is starting to get bigger again after it just got done getting smaller to compress the charge).
The beauty of this process is that it can occur completely independent of any change in factors in the outside world - temperature, pressure, altitude, pollution, humidity, whatever - as long as we can be
assured that these conditions inside the combustion chamber are constant.

The problem is, we can't.

Because the process of getting a fixed volume of O2 into the combustion chamber at a proscribed density (meaning temperature via Avagadro) is complicated by the fact that this air is supplied by the available atmosphere, we are straddled with the effects of varying density on the combustion charge.
What that means is we must compensate for the volatility of gasoline as it responds to the varying charge densities. At differing charge densities, the amount of energy necessary to start the combustion process and the time it takes to complete the combustion process changes in a not so linear fashion.
So, what we do is vary the amount of fuel we add and ignite the process on a adjustable schedule based on what information we can obtain about the conditions of the air going into our ICE.
What we measure in the case of the RX-8 to know these conditions are these:

Air Flow
Intake Air Temperature
Barometric Pressure
Coolant Temperature
Throttle Position
Eccentric Shaft Position

By computing all of these measurements together, the engine control unit (ECU - sometimes called PCM for powertrain control module) can determine APPROXIMATELY the density of the air charge in the combustion chamber at any given time. It is a shame, really, that there is no way to measure the density directly or we could forgo all of this.
Two factors that can't be measured by the above methods are important to the whole equation as well.
First is volumetric efficiency (VE) or the amount of air, as a percentage of maximum, that the engine actually ingests as a result of the physics of mass and inertia. This number is fixed to some degree and changes at different RPM.
The other is the latent temperature of the actual combustion chamber as a result of the combustion cycles that proceed the cycle under scrutiny at that moment. This changes as a result of RPM as well, but it is also tied to 'load' or the increase of RPM over time as a proportion to charge density.
What that leaves us with is a very crude measurement of the total charge density.
How do we compensate for that?
By conservative 'hedging' on the bet that is ignition timing through advancement and retardation of the onset of the spark and by introducing elements into the gasoline that seek to stabilize its volatility. That is what octane is for and how much it affects the combustion process is measured by various methods including, but not limited to, Research Octane (RON), Motor Octane (MON) and the Anti Knock Index (AKI - and average of the RON and MON numbers). Unfortunately for the average motorist, many other ingredients are added to the fuel we use to affect its environmental impact that are not directly computed into the AKI. Ingredients are added to lower the boiling point and vapor point, reduce the hydrophilic nature of gas and reduce the amount of oxides of nitrogen after the combustion process. Many, if not most, of these ingredients change the combustion process in ways that may not be consistent from sample to sample. They also alter the total energy content of the fuel itself by volume.

As it has been mentioned previously in this thread, having the ignition process starting at the wrong time (especially too soon) is a bad thing and can (especially in the case of the rotary ICE) quickly destroy a motor. So what is done, more often than not, is to err on the side of safety and bracket the combustion process with extra fuel and start the ignition with a slightly delayed spark (or, rather, a less advanced spark since the spark event will usually occur several degrees of eccentric shaft revolution before the point at which we want maximum combustion chamber pressure). What this does is lower the temperature of the intake charge and insure that the combustion process is slower and later than optimal and never faster or sooner. Raising the AKI of the fuel used will accomplish the same thing but since the manufacturer of the vehicle can't insure that the fuel used will always have the proper AKI to achieve this or won't contain additives that adversly affect the ignition onset, they don't depend on their octane recommendation alone.
What is done by "tuners" then, is to take into account this margin of error and dial some of it out for more power which can be achieved by charge composition that is closer to optimal. To achieve this, they depend on the operator to use fuel that takes up the slack in AKI and remove some of this extra fuel and spark retardation.
Really, that is all there is to it. How good a tuner can be is dependant on his or her ability and knowledge with respect to the events within the combustion chamber in question. Unfortunately, that knowledge usually comes at the price of some blown-up motors. However...

With regards to Canzoomer's box.

The EPA mandated that the catalytic converter on vehicles manufactured in 2004 on must conform to a standard that requires that said converter is still functioning at 120,000 miles. That is TWICE for which RX-8 was designed. It is speculated, and what seems to be borne out in testing is, that Mazda decided that the best way to achieve this is by keeping the catalytic converter at somewhat lower temperatures than what were experienced when the RX-8 was at maximum tune. They did this by ensuring that there was so much surplus fuel in the combustion process that a quantity of it was still available to act as a coolant for the catalytic converter after it was expelled from the combustion process. This is a lot of fuel and its net effect on the ratio of air to fuel in the charge is to place it closer to 11:1 at some points in the RPM band. This is actually very close to the point at which ignition can't actually occur. What this means to power output should be obvious. It is interesting to note that previous rotary engines from Mazda ran extremely rich for other reasons and were also able to operate a catalytic converter correctly over its rated lifetime - a fact that seems at odds with what most of us believe to be an unhealthy thing for catalytic converter. It is generally accepted that raw fuel poisons the catalytic. But I digress.
What Canzoomer is attempting to do is trade some of this converter longevity for power in much the same way the average tuner trades in on the AKI for the same. In the case of the "Stage II" kit, he is asking the end user to forgo the converter completely since it will not survive the exhaust gas temperatures that are produced at the resultant air/fuel ratios.
This isn't even venturing into the realm of real "tuning" since we are not trading any AKI for power yet and are operating at A/F ratios that are still below stoichiometric.
Whether the 13b-MSP requires more fuel than stoich to avoid premature ignition of the intake charge (auto-ignition) or not is not really going to be known until someone actually grenades an engine this way. So, to keep things safe, A/F ratios will probably be kept in the 13:1 range while under load to provide some of that protection that was afforded by Mazda.
With regards to exhaust gas temperature (EGT), the heat present after combustion must also be controlled for the longevity of the motor (specifically the ports and manifold) and is a good indicator of combustion efficiency along with a direct measurement of the A/F ratios via an oxygen sensor.
Interestingly enough, retarding the ignition timing usually increases EGT, so it is likely that ignition timing on the 13b-MSP is probably still close to optimal with all of this extra fuel.

If anyone would like to see any other details of this process laid out, let me know.

compaddict

12-01-2003, 01:40 AM

se3pmaniac:

How about a big THANK YOU to Maurice for answering your questions?

Your not much into the whole "please" and "thank you" thing are you?

Just a thought.

Vince

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 01:44 AM

More questions if you don't mind.

1. For knock reading. How is it compared to stock reading. Will you be able to share the before and after knock reading log.

2. I personally think your main selling point is the unit, not the map itself althought it's defintely a plus. By sharing the map, people can't really duplicate it if you are only laying it out as rpm vs air flow sensor vs a/f. You don't have to include the injector duty cycle so no one can copy it. I am not interested in the injetor duty cycle anyways. Or to make your life easier, you can just include a dyno sheet with rpm vs a/f under 1/4 throttle, 1/2 throttle, 3/4 throttle and full throttle.

3. I agree with you on lean + much advancing timing = blown motor. That's my number 1 concern. I think I read it somewhere that you said you advance the timing by a lot. How much is a lot over the stock ignition map. Did you change both the trailing and leading timing? I guess you don't want to give out the timing map but please give some kind of rough estimate.

4. I am not here to insult you. My first post is kind of harsh. I apologize. I just need the technical info and that's it. I already said good luck on the sales and we will see what happens in a couple of weeks from the last thread directing to you and I will say it again.

If you can share the a/f, knock, timing info, that's great. If not, that's ok too. I will give it a rest for now. :)

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 01:49 AM

None of them are really related to your unit or directing them to you. Just having fun with Maniac. :)

I know all those you said. I never said high octane fuel will increase power. Higher octane fuel are more slow buring. Stock has one MAF, two o2. 2nd o2 is for checking if the cat is working.

Originally posted by canzoomer
1) No. You are distorting things a bit.
What was said is that in N.America the combined index ratings are deetermined by a different formula than what is used in many locations overseas.
For example in Japan they use RON rating, while here they use the combimed index.
Since you are now quoting the method used, you apparently have been reading up a bit on this.
Higher octane levels will allow one to run a leaner micture with less chance of detonation/knock/pinging.
They do NOT guarantee higher power levels, as the octane anti-knock index rating may be achieved with additives that make less specific power than gasoline.
For example the addition of ethanol raises the anti-knock index, but reduces the power available in the fuel.

It IS a waste of time and money to buy a higher octane rated fuel than you need, however.
You need high enopugh to prevent knock. Anything higher does not gain you anything, other than higher cost.
IF you run a higher anti-knock index fule, and IF it is made that way by the use of additives that are the same or higher potential energy, then you CAN lean your mixture, and thereby make more power.
Simply using higher octane fuel than needed IS a waste of money.

2) I do not know what you refer to by "games"
The RX-8 uses a MAF, not a MAP, and an O2 ( 2 actually)

3) WE ARE NOT ADJUSTING IGNIOTION TIMING ON THE STAGE1 KIT!!!

There, is that CLEAR NOW?

On Stage2 we will be.
Yes, it is affected by the BAR sensor too.

4) Yes, some older cars did do that.
Perhaps some still do.
So??

I fail to get the point of your statement. Is it some form of question?

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 01:55 AM

Oh no, I am not trying to beat on your head. How can you improve by just agreeing with each other, right?? Don't tell me that you think no one is benefitting from all those info. :)

Originally posted by Maniac
I think he was trying to beat on my head, not yours Maurice.:)

MazdaManiac

12-01-2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Oh no, I am not trying to beat on your head. How can you improve by just agreeing with each other, right?? Don't tell me that you think no one is benefitting from all those info. :)

For sure. If we just wanted to argue for arguments sake, we would do it through PMs. This is for the embetterment of ALL RX-8ophiles.:D

akrx8

12-01-2003, 02:01 AM

im just a innocent bystander with 17 years as a professional technician and im not about to get into to this argument but as i sit back and read all these posts it reads like se3pmanic still has not took the time to read up on this.im sitting here thinking wtf hes worying about advancing ignition timing when we all new 2 months ago that this stage 1 kit did no such thing.also from these posts it also sounds like he knew nothing about the us port reflash for the cat to meet the 120000 mile life that has also been well documented months ago entill gordon pointed this out a few posts back.
im not here to offened you in anyway but just from reading these this is how it reads and im sure this is how it looks to most every one else thats not posting here.im sure you know alot about tuning rotarys and im also sure that zoomer,yaw and others also no alot and will argue till the end of time that there way is better,safer,faster.im bettig you have a fast highly tuned rotary but to that there is someone else with even a faster better tuned car and this is what its all about.:cool:

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
More questions if you don't mind.

2. I personally think your main selling point is the unit, not the map itself althought it's defintely a plus.

The unit, as a PLUG IN device, with no requirement for people to DO tuning. Stage1 was not designed as some kind of "ultimate weapon". It was designed to be a simple, easy to install, safe andinexpensive device to allow us RX-8 owners to get what we originally thought we were buying. To wit, 247HP or better, or about 205-210 rear wheel horsepower.
Havbing said that, we are ALSO working on Stage2.
This is for those who want to go "a bit further".

In the case of the Stage2 kit, some of your questions are more relevant, as we start to implement ignition timing and leaner mixtures.
We also are producing exhasut gas temperatures that preclude the use of the stock catalaytic converter.
It is also pretty well a given that a decent performance exhaust system will be used.
This IS a "tuner kit" and we will be doing customizations, and version for people who want specific tuning for specific equipment configurations. Obviously we could not cover EVERY variant, but simpler choices like exhaust system, intake type, and so on.

We did SOME TESTS with ignition advance. The highest we tried was around 2.5 degrees, along with leaner fuel/air.
We had no detonation, but we DID melt some coil packs.

More testing is underway.

Thanks for the civil words. Please feel free to email me off list if you would like more specifics ..

maurice@harddata.com

Lock & Load

12-01-2003, 03:47 AM

MAURICE

Pheeewww .

After reading all your 28 pages once again and then re examining your answers with se3pmaniac , i know feel once again relieved that i am doing the right thing with my stage1 kit , i will be totally stoked if we here in australia manage a 205- 210 at the rear wheels horse power , upon reading that the ignition timing has not been altered on the stage 1 kit , i am anxiously awaiting my kit .

So please stop wasting your precious time on forum baiting (equivelent to intellectual masturbating ) and please i want my stage 1 asap .

ps : i have one f$%#ken huge headeache , but i have become a (PARROTT )rotary would be expert .with a sore head .

michael

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 06:24 AM

I have read about that reflashed rom thing for the cat. I can't comment on it. My personal dynoing with the rx8 with a/f datalogging does not show the same result as canzoomer's but there might be many factors behind that so I am not going to discuss here. I can only say the result is different but I don't know why.

If you think I am here to brag about how fast my car is, that's not the case. There are many people that have faster rotaries.

Originally posted by akrx8
im just a innocent bystander with 17 years as a professional technician and im not about to get into to this argument but as i sit back and read all these posts it reads like se3pmanic still has not took the time to read up on this.im sitting here thinking wtf hes worying about advancing ignition timing when we all new 2 months ago that this stage 1 kit did no such thing.also from these posts it also sounds like he knew nothing about the us port reflash for the cat to meet the 120000 mile life that has also been well documented months ago entill gordon pointed this out a few posts back.
im not here to offened you in anyway but just from reading these this is how it reads and im sure this is how it looks to most every one else thats not posting here.im sure you know alot about tuning rotarys and im also sure that zoomer,yaw and others also no alot and will argue till the end of time that there way is better,safer,faster.im bettig you have a fast highly tuned rotary but to that there is someone else with even a faster better tuned car and this is what its all about.:cool:

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 06:32 AM

Yeah, I know it's a plug in unit and that's why I said you are not going to run into more risk of losing profit posting your target a/f table but the decision is yours.

I seriously saw some post that said you are advancing the timing by a lot and that was causing my worries. 2 degree more isn't too bad. Your issue with coil is extremely strange. I have heard of coil melting due to strong igntion amplifiers but by simply advancing the timing, that's unheard of so far.

Originally posted by canzoomer
The unit, as a PLUG IN device, with no requirement for people to DO tuning. Stage1 was not designed as some kind of "ultimate weapon". It was designed to be a simple, easy to install, safe andinexpensive device to allow us RX-8 owners to get what we originally thought we were buying. To wit, 247HP or better, or about 205-210 rear wheel horsepower.
Havbing said that, we are ALSO working on Stage2.
This is for those who want to go "a bit further".

In the case of the Stage2 kit, some of your questions are more relevant, as we start to implement ignition timing and leaner mixtures.
We also are producing exhasut gas temperatures that preclude the use of the stock catalaytic converter.
It is also pretty well a given that a decent performance exhaust system will be used.
This IS a "tuner kit" and we will be doing customizations, and version for people who want specific tuning for specific equipment configurations. Obviously we could not cover EVERY variant, but simpler choices like exhaust system, intake type, and so on.

We did SOME TESTS with ignition advance. The highest we tried was around 2.5 degrees, along with leaner fuel/air.
We had no detonation, but we DID melt some coil packs.

More testing is underway.

Thanks for the civil words. Please feel free to email me off list if you would like more specifics ..

maurice@harddata.com

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 08:26 AM

This one is for Jeff on his length explanation on combustion.

My previous question toward you was regarding the technical aspect of how a ECU will determine the correct ignition timing based on all those sensors. The ECU will have 3 sets of maps

air flow sensor voltage vs rpm to determine injection duty cycle
air flow sensor voltage vs rpm to determine leading ignition
air flow sensor voltage vs rpm to determine traing ignition timing

On top of that, you will also have Barametric pressure, intake temp, and coolant temp. The injection map can be compensated easily by air temp, barometric pressure, and air flow sensor since P (V/t)= (n/t) RT where t equals time, P = ATM pressure, (V/t) = air volume flowing rate, T = temperature, and (n/t) is the mass flowing rate. The a/f ratio can be compensated correctly because n/t and injection duty cycle have a correlation.

On the contray, n/t does not have a direct correlation with ignition timing. So I don't think you can correctly compensate ignition timing just based on feed back from barometric sensor and intake sensor unless you have another set of 3D map that has the barometric pressure vs rpm vs ignition timing correction. I don't know if the stock ECU has this set of map. I know they do have a map for intake temp ignition timing compensation and coolant temp ignition compensation.

This is not a flame. Just a healthy discussion.

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 08:45 AM

Maurice:

I have read the complete thread and saw that some more general info such as future ECU upgrade, tunable ECU, etc were mentioned but the more advance technical issues that I asked were not mentioned in that thread. I also found a some other things that you might be able to clarify and answer.

1. On one post, you mentioned that if a ECU is reflashed, your Unit will still work the same because it does not use the stock signal. I am not clear on that. That post was in the beginning of the thread. So is your Unit not a piggy back that intercepts the stock signal?

2. Another member has the same concern on the o2 feed back. I hope you can explain further how you can make the ecu to run a closed loop at full throttle that ECU will try to achieve the target a/f. This is a very powerful feature. I don't think the stock o2 sensor is wideband so it will not give you the correct a/f reading. If you can incorporate a wideband that makes the car to run closed loop at high load condition and makes the unit programmable, it will be a very powerful ecu to be used in the force induction department.

3. Why are you going to incorporate APEX Super AFC II for the switchable map application when Super AFC II can be used by itself to modify the air flow sensor signal?

Looking forward to your answers.

shift_zoom8

12-01-2003, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
I have read about that reflashed rom thing for the cat. I can't comment on it. My personal dynoing with the rx8 with a/f datalogging does not show the same result as canzoomer's but there might be many factors behind that so I am not going to discuss here. I can only say the result is different but I don't know why.

If you think I am here to brag about how fast my car is, that's not the case. There are many people that have faster rotaries.

Se3pmaniac, I don't think you're here to brag. I don't have any technical background in engines but, being trained in science, I do have background in extracting patterns. I think all that semantics derived from taking things DELIBERATELY out of context might be...uh... a deliberate tool to DISTRACT from your true motive. I think your motive may be to extract information from Canzoomer- in essence to piggyback off him- so you don't have to start from scratch or so at least you have a goal to beat with your own ECU product.

I think you may not simply be the overzealous Cal Poly San Luis Obispo engineering grad. I think you may very well be the manipulative, overzealous Cal Poly SLO grad trying to piggyback off the Caltech grad. You should be an MBA who hires Canzoomer and others.

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 09:02 AM

I am sorry that you feel that way but it's not that simple. Just by knowing how his piggy back works does not make it easier to make another piggy back and that's not my motive. If I really want to copy his product without starting from scratch, I can simply just buy one and try to reverse engineer it. But reverse engineering is not as simple as you think. The info I asked will not help the reverse engineering process.

There are many fuel computers out on the market. You can clearly know how it works and how it modifies the signal just by looking at the wiring. So if I really want to copy his product, I can just buy one, compare with the stock ecu wiring and determine from there. Knowing the schametic is just part of it. There are many things involved and be honest with you, I am not capable of doing it.

My motive is just simple, I have a science background so if I am buying something, I want to know how it modifies the signal and how it processes the signal so I can determine if I feel safe using it.

All the info I asked can be obtained if I buy the unit so I am not asking some trade secret that the end users are not supposed to know. But to sve myself trouble, I asked about the info I need before I purchase to see if it's suitable for my need.

He always has the option of releasing the info before sale or not. I can't force him and I am not forcing him. I NEVER said if Canzoomer doesn't do xxx, that means he is full of crap. I already said if he doesn't want to release the info, he doesn't have to.

If he is a caltec grad, he should know a lot more on how to protect his own product. You don't have to worry about it.

Originally posted by shift_zoom8
Se3pmaniac, I don't think you're here to brag. I don't have any technical background in engines but, being trained in science, I do have background in extracting patterns. I think all that semantics derived from taking things DELIBERATELY out of context might be...uh... a deliberate tool to DISTRACT from your true motive. I think your motive may be to extract information from Canzoomer- in essence to piggyback off him- so you don't have to start from scratch or so at least you have a goal to beat with your own ECU product.

I think you may not simply be the overzealous Cal Poly San Luis Obispo engineering grad. I think you may very well be the manipulative, overzealous Cal Poly SLO grad trying to piggyback off the Caltech grad. You should be an MBA who hires Canzoomer and others.

shift_zoom8

12-01-2003, 09:09 AM

I hope that's true. So you really are the Cal Poly SLO student!!!

Ok, so you're no piggyback. But you must agree you have a personality problem?

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 09:19 AM

I am not from Cal Poly and where I graduated does not concern you.

I don't agree I have a personality problem and you don't have to attack me like that.

At least all my posts have technical info, your personal attack serves no purpose here.

I am more than happy to argue with you on technical stuff. If you want to play personal attack game, I guess I will just let you win since I am not interested. Calling me names does not make you superior. It just shows that you have nothing to offer and obviously you don't.

On top of that, even (((IF))) I am really making a piggyback for the rx8, it's not going to be better if the Carzoomer's does what he says. You have to understand that a piggyback system mainly modifes the signal and then send it back to the stock ecu. Stock ecu is still doing all the stuff to make the engine run. As long as his ecu mod can translate the signal accurately and then send it back to the ecu, you just can't make a better one unless you add more feature to it such as making it programmable by hand held controller or laptop, data logging, incoporate with a wideband o2 sensor, etc. But what he is doing does not fall into those catagories. His main concern is to extract HP from the complete stock or mildly modifed car. All the other features I mention will be necessary if you plan to force induce the engine.

There is limitation on a piggyback sytem and the limitation comes from the stock ecu. That's why I personally prefer a stand alone and I have said that already. (((IF))) I am going to make a piggyback, I am going to tune it more conservatively and that will not yield as much power as the Canzoomer one. I will tune the a/f to around 12.7 at most. Please note that Canzoomer is able to tune the a/f to any level as well if you ask him to.

That should answer your concern.

Originally posted by shift_zoom8
I hope that's true. So you really are the Cal Poly SLO student!!!

Ok, so you're no piggyback. But you must agree you have a personality problem?

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Yeah, I know it's a plug in unit and that's why I said you are not going to run into more risk of losing profit posting your target a/f table but the decision is yours.

I seriously saw some post that said you are advancing the timing by a lot and that was causing my worries. 2 degree more isn't too bad. Your issue with coil is extremely strange. I have heard of coil melting due to strong igntion amplifiers but by simply advancing the timing, that's unheard of so far.

One of the things we are checking is that the dwell and charge time on the coilpacks may require different settings for higher advance settings..

I will post more on that as I find out more conclusive data.

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Maurice:

1. On one post, you mentioned that if a ECU is reflashed, your Unit will still work the same because it does not use the stock signal. I am not clear on that. That post was in the beginning of the thread. So is your Unit not a piggy back that intercepts the stock signal?

On some of the earlier postings we are still at a stage where we considered a static map, with no O2 feedback.
We since have the RX-8's MAF and O2 sync worked out, so we are using both. We intercept the MAF and adjust in the conventional fashion, thereby adjusting the fuel duty cycle timing and interval.

2. Another member has the same concern on the o2 feed back. I hope you can explain further how you can make the ecu to run a closed loop at full throttle that ECU will try to achieve the target a/f. This is a very powerful feature. I don't think the stock o2 sensor is wideband so it will not give you the correct a/f reading. If you can incorporate a wideband that makes the car to run closed loop at high load condition and makes the unit programmable, it will be a very powerful ecu to be used in the force induction department.

The stock O2 is not a broadband, but as we are keeping the ratio within it's bandwidth, it is still valid.
The rather ironic part is that the stock ECU settings frequently take the mixture out of the bandwidth region of the O2, thereby rendering it incapable of providing useful data to the ECU. I feel that this is because Mazda originally designed the whole system to work within the bandwidth, but then re-tuned for emissions and fell out of band.
We could have used a wideband, but how many people would entertaain the cost of adding a bung to their exhaust, adding a $300 broadband sensor, etc..

If you look at a dyno curve for the stock ECU tuned settings you can see that over 6,000rpm the curve "jitters" very badly. I think that this is due to the fact that it is in a feedback loop with the O2 sensor falling out of band. The ecu is re-adjusting the fuel to compensate, then falling out of band, then re-adjusting, over and over and over.. The frequency of the jitters is constant, so this is effectively measuring the feedback cycle time of the sensor and ECU as a subsystem. The one good thing we get out of this is knowing the stock ECU's response time, which is about 4-6 times per second.
Our control unit has frequency resolution of better than 10 times per second, so we know that we are using a device that responds at least as fast as the systems it controls. I am happy about that as we are not going to be in a position where we are not able to respond fast enough.

3. Why are you going to incorporate APEX Super AFC II for the switchable map application when Super AFC II can be used by itself to modify the air flow sensor signal?

If I understand you correctly, you are asking why we would use the A'PEXi AFC II AND our unit together instead of JUST the AFC II ?
The short answer is we hope not to have to do this.
We designed our mapping parameters to be compatible with the A'PEXi, so when they can control the MAF and the ignition, we should be able to just port our maps over.
At present the main problem with using existing A/F and ignition tools is that none of them have yet been updated to be capable of recognizing the MAF in the RX-8 OR the ignition parameters.
For proper ignition control when adding advance it is prefereable to change the intrval between the trailing and leading plugs on demand. Neither Greddy, Apexi, or others yet support this.
This is why we had to do some customization.
However, by the spring we are hopeful that this software functionality will appear on the A'PEXi units.

RXhusker

12-01-2003, 03:35 PM

Canzoomer -- thanks for your prompt response to all of the "technical" questions!

My questions are not quite so technical:

1. Will you be posting Stage 1 dyno results soon?

2. Will you update us on your findings of the Stage 1 with the aftermarket exhast?

Thanks!

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
I don't agree I have a personality problem and you don't have to attack me like that.

I agree. While I feel some of your earlier posts were rather rude and offensive, you seem to have overcome that, and i have no issues with addressing your questions.
However that slo does not make it "open season" on you either.
People need to remember tht a pair of wrongs is no better than one!

On top of that, even (((IF))) I am really making a piggyback for the rx8, it's not going to be better if the Carzoomer's does what he says. You have to understand that a piggyback system mainly modifes the signal and then send it back to the stock ecu. Stock ecu is still doing all the stuff to make the engine run. As long as his ecu mod can translate the signal accurately and then send it back to the ecu, you just can't make a better one unless you add more feature to it such as making it programmable by hand held controller or laptop, data logging, incoporate with a wideband o2 sensor, etc. But what he is doing does not fall into those catagories. His main concern is to extract HP from the complete stock or mildly modifed car. All the other features I mention will be necessary if you plan to force induce the engine.

The other part you do not mention is that whatever the tuning tool is, it has to be capable of working with the sensors and controls on the car. In the case of the RX-8 the MAF is an entirely new unit, and the O2 is as well.
If you want to add ignition control, you also run into unique issues.
Frankly, we could publish every single technical detail and sourcing for every part on our units today, and it would still be impossible to provide the same thing at a better price.
You could possibly hack up some existing controller to do it, but without the MAF control program it would be weak at best.
Add to that the fact that we are shipping in a true "plug in" device, wich does not require one to hack the wiring, and we feel that we are safe, at least for a while!

There is limitation on a piggyback sytem and the limitation comes from the stock ecu. That's why I personally prefer a stand alone and I have said that already. (((IF))) I am going to make a piggyback, I am going to tune it more conservatively and that will not yield as much power as the Canzoomer one. I will tune the a/f to around 12.7 at most. Please note that Canzoomer is able to tune the a/f to any level as well if you ask him to.

True. The BEST solution is to reverse engineer the ECU and do your own, or at least to re-map the stock ECU.
Unfortunately the stock ECU is a complicated bitch, which would be a rather large job to reverse engineer.
Last I heard the guys over in Japan working on it had so far figured out how to re-program the rpm limit code.

What makes the whole works even more of a rough ride is that the ECU not only controls the engine, it runs the steering, brakes, traction control, headlights, and darned near everything on the car.
To build a replacement would be a vast project, and to hack the original entails the risk of accidentally altering the response or functionality of some other part of the controls that could be potentially lethal.

Imagine that whole "drive by wire" steering variable assist power failing at highway speeds?

No thanks, I want to stay the hell away from that kettle of fish!

canzoomer

12-01-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by RXhusker
Canzoomer -- thanks for your prompt response to all of the "technical" questions!

My questions are not quite so technical:

1. Will you be posting Stage 1 dyno results soon?

2. Will you update us on your findings of the Stage 1 with the aftermarket exhast?

Thanks!

Yes.
Yes.

Final results, based on what we are shipping, will be posted as soon as we are finished and satisfied.
This will be in the next week I beleive.

shift_zoom8

12-01-2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
I am not from Cal Poly and where I graduated does not concern you.

I don't agree I have a personality problem and you don't have to attack me like that.

At least all my posts have technical info, your personal attack serves no purpose here.

I am more than happy to argue with you on technical stuff. If you want to play personal attack game, I guess I will just let you win since I am not interested. Calling me names does not make you superior. It just shows that you have nothing to offer and obviously you don't.

You are quite a character. You choose to read my words at face value and take affront but you fail to read YOUR OWN words veridically, instead choosing to create implausible explanations in ad-hoc fashion when others complain about you. Your behavior shows a CLEAR genuine inconsistency that is qualitatively different from the courtroom "logical arguments" you've employed on others based on semantics games and taking their words out of context.

Did you know the human brain is designed to be egocentric?

Allow me to amend one of your statements above. You meant to say: "At least all my [personal attack] posts have technical information." So let me get this straight, if I can provide technical information like you do, then personal attacks would be ok? Again, your logic doesn't fly.

I'll be straightforward. If you and I went to the same college at the same time and took the same courses, you COULD NOT beat me in one single course, whether it's literature, history, economics, math, genetics, or engineering. Your ego gets the better of you. It's a male ego thing, like guys have with sports. You did it to Canzoomer. This time I do it to you. Only can you analyze what's behind this, behave accordingly, and pass MY test by turning the egocentric lens outward?

MazdaManiac

12-01-2003, 03:52 PM

Whoa, there!

se3pmaniac and I were just having a little fun. There is no need to just sit around bashing each other directly. At least, save that for PM.
Even though I found him to be abrasive initially and I wanted to take him to task for his illogical arguments and ad hominem attacks, the fact is he raised EXCELLENT questions and seems to have found a less agressive way to voice himself.
I'm sure that we all have ways of "making an entrance" as it were and that was se3pmaniac's way.
Lets get on with it.:)

Gyro

12-01-2003, 03:54 PM

Very interesting about the stock O2 sensor.

My question is.......If the first group pf cars (mine included) received a reflash in port...why wasn't a new O2 sensor, one that actually reads the richer mixtures the engine now produces, included in the port modification.

Or even if they were not prepared for that (no new O2 sensors immediatly available).....the latest production cars could be fitted with a wider band O2 sensor. This would (according to what Canzoomer theorizes) solve the problem of the ECU going into that loop to adjust A/F ratio due to O2 sensor out of band.

This would appear to be an important part of the "retune" all of our RX8's got in the first group. The computer looping and getting new data 4-6 times/second seems like hack to me.....compared to a constant stream like a O2 sensor would provide.

compaddict

12-01-2003, 03:55 PM

Relax and look at the good information that we gleened.

Vince

shift_zoom8

12-01-2003, 04:11 PM

Oh so everything is ok now? COOL! And even the humor is being interpreted correctly now...I think.

MazdaManiac

12-01-2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by shift_zoom8
Oh so everything is ok now? COOL! And even the humor is being interpreted correctly now...I think.

Well, the real drawback of the internet and forums like this is the complete lack of inflection and body language.
This same thread in the back of a bar on Copenhagen with a Carslburg in hand would be an entirely different thing.

Omicron

12-01-2003, 04:40 PM

Ok, everybody shake hands, hug if you want to, and we'll all sing a nice course of Koombaya. :)

I agree with Maniac that Se3pManiac (Wait! Could they be brothers? Naaah...) started a bit agressively on this forum, but has since tempered his approach. No need to continue the reverse jabs at this point. Canzoomer has also said it's all in the past too, and this is HIS forum.

If we can ignore all the name calling, there is some very good info contained in this thread. Let's keep it this way from now on. Thanks...

rx8 - smooth!

12-01-2003, 05:13 PM

Canzoomer (Maurice)

Thank you for dealing with the issues raised in this thread

1) Calmly and in an unemotional manner.

2) By demonstrating a very good grasp of the issues involved.

3) Helping me and I am sure many others to expand their understanding of the machines that they are driving.

I for one now feel confident that your modification is a carefully considered and appropriate way to increase the power of our cars to around the level that Mazda originally targetted.

Congratulations put me down for an order!

Lock & Load

12-01-2003, 05:32 PM

Yeah guys enough of the mental masturbation , trying to impress each other with unnecessary comments will not get our rx8 running ,faster better or smoother , so lets all get our collective knowledge together and work as a team to improve the rx8 .

AS kamal an indian singer would say (WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MEAN )

Make love and faster cars not war .

michael

shift_zoom8

12-01-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by Maniac
Well, the real drawback of the internet and forums like this is the complete lack of inflection and body language.
This same thread in the back of a bar on Copenhagen with a Carslburg in hand would be an entirely different thing.

Are you kidding, maniac!!! LOL. Do NOT give se3pmaniac the beer! Alcohol temporarily deactivates or attenuates activation in the prefrontal cortex, a region believed to be the seat of self-control and regulatory (including emotional) behavior. Egos and unadulterated abrasiveness may actually get worse with a Carlsburg in hand. Maybe throw some beta adrenergic receptor antagonists (i.e., beta blockers) into se3pmaniac's Carlsburg!

Hey, se3pmaniac, we're trying to help you!!! And that's a friendly thing. I even apologize to you formally right now. You have important things to talk about that can benefit everyone here. It's just sometimes your presentation can provoke on the personal level. And I usually respond to that kind of thing with cryptic humor that is easily missed leaving only the caustic element to be felt, which doesn't help the matter.

Look, I will even make a concession to you with regard to the academic thing. I jogged and search and I think I found a class in which you MIGHT be able to beat me: PVL applications in automotive engineering.

In case you're wondering, PVL = pure Vulcan logic. Are you laughing right about now?

shift_zoom8

12-01-2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Lock & Load
Yeah guys enough of the mental masturbation , trying to impress each other with unnecessary comments will not get our rx8 running ,faster better or smoother , so lets all get our collective knowledge together and work as a team to improve the rx8 .

AS kamal an indian singer would say (WHY ARE PEOPLE SO MEAN )

Make love and faster cars not war .

michael

With regard to unnecessary comments used to impress, why cite Kamal, an Indian singer? LOL.

Ok, that's enough out of me. I'm just joking, you know that, right?

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 08:05 PM

You think this has something to do with ego? If that's your intrepretation, I can't do anything about it.

Originally posted by shift_zoom8
You are quite a character. You choose to read my words at face value and take affront but you fail to read YOUR OWN words veridically, instead choosing to create implausible explanations in ad-hoc fashion when others complain about you. Your behavior shows a CLEAR genuine inconsistency that is qualitatively different from the courtroom "logical arguments" you've employed on others based on semantics games and taking their words out of context.

Did you know the human brain is designed to be egocentric?

Allow me to amend one of your statements above. You meant to say: "At least all my [personal attack] posts have technical information." So let me get this straight, if I can provide technical information like you do, then personal attacks would be ok? Again, your logic doesn't fly.

I'll be straightforward. If you and I went to the same college at the same time and took the same courses, you COULD NOT beat me in one single course, whether it's literature, history, economics, math, genetics, or engineering. Your ego gets the better of you. It's a male ego thing, like guys have with sports. You did it to Canzoomer. This time I do it to you. Only can you analyze what's behind this, behave accordingly, and pass MY test by turning the egocentric lens outward?

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 08:29 PM

That's very interesting on the o2 sensor. I do not know it runs in closed loop under full throttle.

On the Super AFCII, I was wondering why can't you just use yours to store two sets of maps or even multiple, instead of incorporating the super AFC II into your unit.

Originally posted by canzoomer
On some of the earlier postings we are still at a stage where we considered a static map, with no O2 feedback.
We since have the RX-8's MAF and O2 sync worked out, so we are using both. We intercept the MAF and adjust in the conventional fashion, thereby adjusting the fuel duty cycle timing and interval.

The stock O2 is not a broadband, but as we are keeping the ratio within it's bandwidth, it is still valid.
The rather ironic part is that the stock ECU settings frequently take the mixture out of the bandwidth region of the O2, thereby rendering it incapable of providing useful data to the ECU. I feel that this is because Mazda originally designed the whole system to work within the bandwidth, but then re-tuned for emissions and fell out of band.
We could have used a wideband, but how many people would entertaain the cost of adding a bung to their exhaust, adding a $300 broadband sensor, etc..

If you look at a dyno curve for the stock ECU tuned settings you can see that over 6,000rpm the curve "jitters" very badly. I think that this is due to the fact that it is in a feedback loop with the O2 sensor falling out of band. The ecu is re-adjusting the fuel to compensate, then falling out of band, then re-adjusting, over and over and over.. The frequency of the jitters is constant, so this is effectively measuring the feedback cycle time of the sensor and ECU as a subsystem. The one good thing we get out of this is knowing the stock ECU's response time, which is about 4-6 times per second.
Our control unit has frequency resolution of better than 10 times per second, so we know that we are using a device that responds at least as fast as the systems it controls. I am happy about that as we are not going to be in a position where we are not able to respond fast enough.

If I understand you correctly, you are asking why we would use the A'PEXi AFC II AND our unit together instead of JUST the AFC II ?
The short answer is we hope not to have to do this.
We designed our mapping parameters to be compatible with the A'PEXi, so when they can control the MAF and the ignition, we should be able to just port our maps over.
At present the main problem with using existing A/F and ignition tools is that none of them have yet been updated to be capable of recognizing the MAF in the RX-8 OR the ignition parameters.
For proper ignition control when adding advance it is prefereable to change the intrval between the trailing and leading plugs on demand. Neither Greddy, Apexi, or others yet support this.
This is why we had to do some customization.
However, by the spring we are hopeful that this software functionality will appear on the A'PEXi units.

se3pmaniac

12-01-2003, 08:54 PM

Thank you for your concern. I will talk to my girlfriend to see if I really need any help since she has a master degree in psych. Maybe I do. I just don't know. Maybe she is crazy too and that's why we are together.

Maybe I miss the humor but what's up with your beating me in every class? What does that have to do with anything? When I was in school, my department was rated top 3 in the nation. Using academic background to emphasize authority is just pointless. On top of that, your academic background or even my academic background has nothing to do this thread. But since you keep bringing it up, I will share it with you.

Even if you can beat me in every class, maybe I just spend too much time playing with rotaries and I don't like to study. :D

Originally posted by shift_zoom8
Are you kidding, maniac!!! LOL. Do NOT give se3pmaniac the beer! Alcohol temporarily deactivates or attenuates activation in the prefrontal cortex, a region believed to be the seat of self-control and regulatory (including emotional) behavior. Egos and unadulterated abrasiveness may actually get worse with a Carlsburg in hand. Maybe throw some beta adrenergic receptor antagonists (i.e., beta blockers) into se3pmaniac's Carlsburg!

Hey, se3pmaniac, we're trying to help you!!! And that's a friendly thing. I even apologize to you formally right now. You have important things to talk about that can benefit everyone here. It's just sometimes your presentation can provoke on the personal level. And I usually respond to that kind of thing with cryptic humor that is easily missed leaving only the caustic element to be felt, which doesn't help the matter.

Look, I will even make a concession to you with regard to the academic thing. I jogged and search and I think I found a class in which you MIGHT be able to beat me: PVL applications in automotive engineering.

In case you're wondering, PVL = pure Vulcan logic. Are you laughing right about now?

canzoomer

12-02-2003, 02:33 AM

Originally posted by Gyro
Very interesting about the stock O2 sensor.

My question is.......If the first group pf cars (mine included) received a reflash in port...why wasn't a new O2 sensor, one that actually reads the richer mixtures the engine now produces, included in the port modification.

While i was not there at the time, so i can only guess, themore obvious reasons strike me as :
This is only a temporary fix so we can ship the cars, and we will work it out later under a TSB
There is no readily available part that will also fit.
Just too damned smart for their own good

And, my personal favourite:
Evil conspiracy.

Or even if they were not prepared for that (no new O2 sensors immediately available).....the latest production cars could be fitted with a wider band O2 sensor. This would (according to what Canzoomer theorizes) solve the problem of the ECU going into that loop to adjust A/F ratio due to O2 sensor out of band.

Not much gain for a lot of cost, and the worst part would be admitting that they shipped us a crude hack to get by with.
Too much pride and not enough common sense in my opinion.
Everybody screws up, it is human nature, but some companies sure seem loathe to admit it once in a while.

What should have been stated as:
"We made a mistake and the advertised horspower was stated too high"
Became:
"Because we are always looking for ongoing improvement in the vehicles we produce.."

I find that a LOT more offensive than the statements Mr. se3pmaniac made. At least he has the grace to say he is sorry because he went overboard a bit.

This would appear to be an important part of the "retune" all of our RX8's got in the first group. The computer looping and getting new data 4-6 times/second seems like hack to me.....compared to a constant stream like a O2 sensor would provide.

Yup, that is how I see it too.
Quick and dirty fix to a problem, then instead of following up with the proper answer, just deny all and run for cover.

canzoomer

12-02-2003, 03:06 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
That's very interesting on the o2 sensor. I do not know it runs in closed loop under full throttle.

On the Super AFCII, I was wondering why can't you just use yours to store two sets of maps or even multiple, instead of incorporating the super AFC II into your unit.

I found it hard to believe until I understood why.
It was designed to do things differently than the way they tuned it.

On the SAFC II there is a lot of ROM space and a lot of things to smooth transitions.
On our device there is less ROM, less stuff, and a WAY lower price tag.

The AFC II is a cool box.
But will never hit the $500 class with a tune and the install fitments like we have packaged.

BTW, thanks a BIG bunch for mentioning the J&S stuff a few days ago. One of the things I am doing soon is getting Adam at RX7 Specialties to rework my motor with better apex seals, so it is more knock resistant.
I had a good chat with him tonight, and he too brought up J&S in that context.

Last time I looked at their stuff was about 2 years ago, and while it worked to retard timing on knock conditions, it was pretty crude back then.

They have certainly made some big strides!

One thing I wanted to try for Stage2 and beyond tuning is to have a good integrated knock control, and separate control of the advance on leading and trailing plugs, different variable advance for lead and trail, and the ability to shut down the trailing ones at high rpm/WOT conditions.
Problem was "Where to get a device to do all this for me?"

This way I can play with lean mix and heavy advance with less risk of blowing things up in testing.

While trailing plugs do a lot for complete combustion and low rpm smoothness, they impose a risk at high rpm WOT where the trailing plug can act as a glowplug and trigger sever knock. In the worst case scenario one could potentially get pre-ignition when the apex seal passes the trailing plug and it acts as a glowplug, triggering ignition about 30 degrees too soon. That not only would hammer apex seals, but could potentially take out a main bearing as well.

I wanted to be able to try turning off the trailing plugs when needed for some tests.

Seems their new 1004-4CH Ultrasafeguard can do just this.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html

I think i will hurt my credit card tomorrow morning!

BTW, for those inclined to read some really outstanding tech talk on detonation and preigntion, check this out:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/tech.html
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/

Thanks se3p!

Hmm, is that like "C3PO"

You droid boy, you..

shift_zoom8

12-02-2003, 04:10 AM

Originally posted by se3pmaniac
Thank you for your concern. I will talk to my girlfriend to see if I really need any help since she has a master degree in psych. Maybe I do. I just don't know. Maybe she is crazy too and that's why we are together.

Maybe I miss the humor but what's up with your beating me in every class? What does that have to do with anything? When I was in school, my department was rated top 3 in the nation. Using academic background to emphasize authority is just pointless. On top of that, your academic background or even my academic background has nothing to do this thread. But since you keep bringing it up, I will share it with you.

Even if you can beat me in every class, maybe I just spend too much time playing with rotaries and I don't like to study. :D

I refuse to respond. No way.

Just keep talking to Canzoomer. And show him some due respect like a good boy.

se3pmaniac

12-02-2003, 11:55 AM

I don't know what Mazda is doing by using a regular narrow band o2 sensor to run a closed loop under full throttle. They should have gone with a wideband sensor. You can buy one for $300-350 with the control unit, sensor, analog output and monitor. If mazda makes it, it's probably going to cost them no more than $100.

On the J&S knock sensor, I have been using it for about 4 years. I don't know if they have a new version for the rotary but on the website, it looks like the same one I got. There are a few things I don't like about it.

1. It only retards the leading ignition.
2. It only comes with only one knock sensor

So why is retarding only the leading ignition bad? If the leading timing is retarded too much, the trailing plug will fire first. And that's like having pre-ignition. This is one of the reasons why I asked you about the timing split and if your ignition box tuned for both leading and trailng timing. The J&S knock sensor has two settings for max retard timing, 10 or 20. On my car, I set it to be 10 max and on my APEX Power FC, I set the timing split to be more than 10 so even if the J&S is retards the leading timing at max, the trailing plug will not fire first.

From experience, the rotor that has no knock sensor always gets blown first. They should make the unit to come with two knock sensors, one for each rotor.

I don't know if they have made any improvement on the current unit. You might want to ask them about that.

If you want to cut off the trailing ignition, maybe you can design a cut off switch box that has rpm and throttle input and just cut the trailing ignition from the ignitor. Or the simple way will be running a cooler plug. Or simply disconnect the plug wires on the dyno?

SE3P is the chassis code for RX8. There is no special meaning. :)

Originally posted by canzoomer
I found it hard to believe until I understood why.
It was designed to do things differently than the way they tuned it.

On the SAFC II there is a lot of ROM space and a lot of things to smooth transitions.
On our device there is less ROM, less stuff, and a WAY lower price tag.

The AFC II is a cool box.
But will never hit the $500 class with a tune and the install fitments like we have packaged.

BTW, thanks a BIG bunch for mentioning the J&S stuff a few days ago. One of the things I am doing soon is getting Adam at RX7 Specialties to rework my motor with better apex seals, so it is more knock resistant.
I had a good chat with him tonight, and he too brought up J&S in that context.

Last time I looked at their stuff was about 2 years ago, and while it worked to retard timing on knock conditions, it was pretty crude back then.

They have certainly made some big strides!

One thing I wanted to try for Stage2 and beyond tuning is to have a good integrated knock control, and separate control of the advance on leading and trailing plugs, different variable advance for lead and trail, and the ability to shut down the trailing ones at high rpm/WOT conditions.
Problem was "Where to get a device to do all this for me?"

This way I can play with lean mix and heavy advance with less risk of blowing things up in testing.

While trailing plugs do a lot for complete combustion and low rpm smoothness, they impose a risk at high rpm WOT where the trailing plug can act as a glowplug and trigger sever knock. In the worst case scenario one could potentially get pre-ignition when the apex seal passes the trailing plug and it acts as a glowplug, triggering ignition about 30 degrees too soon. That not only would hammer apex seals, but could potentially take out a main bearing as well.

I wanted to be able to try turning off the trailing plugs when needed for some tests.

Seems their new 1004-4CH Ultrasafeguard can do just this.

http://www.jandssafeguard.com/safeguard.html

I think i will hurt my credit card tomorrow morning!

BTW, for those inclined to read some really outstanding tech talk on detonation and preigntion, check this out:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/tech.html
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Engine/Detonation/

Thanks se3p!

Hmm, is that like "C3PO"

You droid boy, you..

se3pmaniac

12-02-2003, 12:25 PM

haha. :) why do you refuse to response?

I am a super nice guy filled with ideas. I am here to share. I might have appeared in a harsh and unpleansant way but you can't deny my contribution to this thread. Ever since I come on this forum, you probalby know a lot more about rx8, rotary engine, and general automotive info.

Argument is just part of life. Sometimes exchanging info results in arguments but if you get something out of it, it's worth it, at least for me.

Do I hate Maniac? No, I think he probably knows about cars more than 99% of the people on the forum. I only play with rotary, if it's piston specific, I am sure he knows more than I do.

Do I hate Carzoomer? No, I think what he is doing is great.

Do I hate Gordan? No, he misunderstands me sometimes but it's no big deal.

Do I hate those people here who thinks I am "the bad guy". No, overtime you will find out I have a lot to share.

The bottomline is that I don't hold grudge against anyone here.

BTW, I am no one's good boy, not even my mom's :D

Originally posted by shift_zoom8
I refuse to respond. No way.

Just keep talking to Canzoomer. And show him some due respect like a good boy.

Sanguine_Dark

12-02-2003, 09:25 PM

Hey all. I'm new to the forum and far from a technician or engineer. Just a new rx8 owner / enthusiast. I have some questions about this product because of course I would like more power out of the car (which is already incredible as it is).

I'm interested in this product but would like to know how a product like this would affect a turbo system if at all. If this is a dumb question or I missed it in another thread, please point me in the right direction.

Thanx in advance.

canzoomer

12-03-2003, 05:39 AM

Originally posted by Sanguine_Dark
Hey all. I'm new to the forum and far from a technician or engineer. Just a new rx8 owner / enthusiast. I have some questions about this product because of course I would like more power out of the car (which is already incredible as it is).

I'm interested in this product but would like to know how a product like this would affect a turbo system if at all. If this is a dumb question or I missed it in another thread, please point me in the right direction.

Thanx in advance.
A turbo or supercharged tune is an entirely different animal.
Non-boosted tuning involves an intake with zero to negative pressure levels in the intake tract.

Boosted involves negative, zero and POSITIVE pressure.

Lots more complex, lots different.

We will be working on these, once we can get our hands on some turbo or SC kits to test on.

energie

12-03-2003, 10:39 PM

canzoomer, please count me in for the stage I kit, the one that doesn't any cutting and can be restored to stock form.

better gas mileage? more hp? why not?!

islandsoon

12-05-2003, 11:11 AM

Canzoomer...

When you ran the comparison run in the Borla exhaust car, how noticeable was the decel popping after the CZ mod was in place? Better or the same as the Borla with stock fuel programing? My Rx8 has stock exhaust yet and I can't get my 'social director to okay the aftermarket exhaust due to the decel popping! At least she is okay with the fuel piggy back program purchase...

Thanks,
Tom

shift_zoom8

12-05-2003, 06:37 PM

Buy your "social director" a new dress or coat.

islandsoon

12-05-2003, 07:58 PM

If only it were so easy sigh.....

canzoomer

12-06-2003, 02:05 AM

Originally posted by islandsoon
Canzoomer...

When you ran the comparison run in the Borla exhaust car, how noticeable was the decel popping after the CZ mod was in place? Better or the same as the Borla with stock fuel programing? My Rx8 has stock exhaust yet and I can't get my 'social director to okay the aftermarket exhaust due to the decel popping! At least she is okay with the fuel piggy back program purchase...

Thanks,
Tom
Best to ask The Doctor, aka StealthTL as it is his car with the Borla on it.

I only got to drive it a short while, mainly to see that it was running OK.
He has been putting lots of time on it lately I hear.

RXhusker

12-06-2003, 11:02 AM

The popping or burbling seems to have significantly reduced as the exhaust has seasoned -- I have had the Borla on for several months and it doesn't seem to burble nearly as much as it did for the first 500 or so miles -- my wife doesn't mind it at all (and she is a very conservative Volvo driver!)

Originally posted by islandsoon
Canzoomer...

When you ran the comparison run in the Borla exhaust car, how noticeable was the decel popping after the CZ mod was in place? Better or the same as the Borla with stock fuel programing? My Rx8 has stock exhaust yet and I can't get my 'social director to okay the aftermarket exhaust due to the decel popping! At least she is okay with the fuel piggy back program purchase...

Thanks,
Tom

Sanguine_Dark

12-08-2003, 03:06 PM

Canzoomer,

Here's another question for you.

Will the Stage 1 ECU work with an aftermarket catback exhaust?
How about a midpipe + catback exhaust
lastly what about the various intakes that are out there (such as the Rotary Extreme one).

Thanx for the insights as always.

doccable

12-08-2003, 09:22 PM

CZ-
Haven't had a chance to fully read this entire thread, but I have a question that may not have been asked yet... the modification proposed here involves adjusting the A/F ratio....have you any data, (even theoretical), about what is going to happen when this modification is done to a vehicle that resides and plays at 7200' above sea level? Then again maybe the computer will compensate for it all on its own.
Update: (Now that I have gone back and read the entire thread, a bit daunting with 12+ pages to go through), I realize that I more or less answered my own question, but am still interested in learning what Maurice as well as other forum posters have to say on this subject.....
-Doc

MazdaManiac

12-08-2003, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by doccable
CZ- Haven't had a chance to fully read this entire thread...a vehicle that resides and plays at 7200' above sea level...

Don't be indolent, read the rest of the thread.

canzoomer

12-09-2003, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by Sanguine_Dark
Canzoomer,

Here's another question for you.

Will the Stage 1 ECU work with an aftermarket catback exhaust?
How about a midpipe + catback exhaust
lastly what about the various intakes that are out there (such as the Rotary Extreme one).

Thanx for the insights as always.

Seems to work very well with the Borla catback.
We have one on a car here in Edmonton driven by StealthTL and he likes it.
I have driven it and mine with no catback, and his is definitely stronger.

I have not tested any intakes.
Frankly I am a bit shy of these as i do not think there is that much to be gained on intake side, especially as compred to exhaust, tuning, and so on. Mazda did a pretty decent job on the intake.

canzoomer

12-09-2003, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by doccable
CZ-
Haven't had a chance to fully read this entire thread, but I have a question that may not have been asked yet... the modification proposed here involves adjusting the A/F ratio....have you any data, (even theoretical), about what is going to happen when this modification is done to a vehicle that resides and plays at 7200' above sea level? Then again maybe the computer will compensate for it all on its own.
Update: (Now that I have gone back and read the entire thread, a bit daunting with 12+ pages to go through), I realize that I more or less answered my own question, but am still interested in learning what Maurice as well as other forum posters have to say on this subject.....
-Doc
7,200 altitude is tough.
You get a lot less power as the air density is so low.

The car has a barometric pressure sensor, and adjusts the mixture based on it, so safety is not problem.

That adjustment is in the base ECU map, and we do not override that except as an increment factor.

Still, you will get a lot less hp than at sea level.

BTW, CanZoomer aka Maurice..

Sanguine_Dark

12-09-2003, 01:30 AM

Canzoomer,

Thanx for patience with my questions (I'm ever so slow sometimes). I haven't seen too much in the way of intake mods that looked very appealing as of yet. My main interest will be in seeing how your ECU will operate with a high flow cat or a test pipe since it works with a aftermarket catback exhaust. As an aside does anyone know what kind of gains StealthTL is getting from the stage 1 with a borla exhaust?

guy321

12-09-2003, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by canzoomer
Seems to work very well with the Borla catback.
We have one on a car here in Edmonton driven by StealthTL and he likes it.
I have driven it and mine with no catback, and his is definitely stronger.

I have not tested any intakes.
Frankly I am a bit shy of these as i do not think there is that much to be gained on intake side, especially as compred to exhaust, tuning, and so on. Mazda did a pretty decent job on the intake.

You have not tested with intakes and dont think they will add any gain. However, do you think they will cause any problems in conjunction with Stage 1 and the Borla exhaust?

I already have both and plan on getting atleast an "after" dyno after Stage I is installed.

DeNile'

12-09-2003, 11:17 AM

MAKE SOMETHING FOR THE AUTO!!!! WE NEED THE D@MN POWER MORE!!!!!!!

mikeb

12-09-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by DeNile'
MAKE SOMETHING FOR THE AUTO!!!! WE NEED THE D@MN POWER MORE!!!!!!!

I agree--but that only makes two of us
the demand isn't high enough

But, I would have it already if auto had one:D

FastRX8

12-09-2003, 03:47 PM

hallo canzoomer
I am from Germany and settigs and gasoline may be different.
Is your system working in the same way and gains like in Amerika
we have 231 hp.
second
rotaryextrem.com is working on cooling the intaketemerature and offering aditional ram air(showing a chart of more then 14hps without ramair gain on a dyno and some gain over the wole range of rpms). Is this an aditional possibility to your tuning package 1?Ore are we taking things to far?
is it possible to order your Package in Germany?
I would also like to put the answer and the essence we need to know in the german forum as there is also an interrest even so the cars just arriving here.

Axel Germany Köln

canzoomer

12-10-2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by guy321
You have not tested with intakes and dont think they will add any gain. However, do you think they will cause any problems in conjunction with Stage 1 and the Borla exhaust?

I already have both and plan on getting atleast an "after" dyno after Stage I is installed.
Frankly, I think different intake will have little effect if it incorporates any useful kind of filter.

However that is ONLY my opinion, and I have no test results to back it up.

Once some come on the mrket that look well thought out I may test, but I doubt that will be anytime soon..

Who knows, maybe I am wrong. It certainly would be good news if I am!

As a general rule anything that improves air flow capacity will likely work well with our kits, as we use theairflow sensed by the MAF, and adjust to suit.

canzoomer

12-10-2003, 02:03 AM

Originally posted by FastRX8
hallo canzoomer
I am from Germany and settigs and gasoline may be different.
Is your system working in the same way and gains like in Amerika
we have 231 hp.
second
rotaryextrem.com is working on cooling the intaketemerature and offering aditional ram air(showing a chart of more then 14hps without ramair gain on a dyno and some gain over the wole range of rpms). Is this an aditional possibility to your tuning package 1?Ore are we taking things to far?
is it possible to order your Package in Germany?
Axel Germany Köln
OK, in order:
1) I have no access to the ECU tune used on your cars in Germany. I suspect it is similar to over here, where Mazda claims 238hp, but I can not directly verify it.
If somebody could hook up a broadband sensor to their exhaust, before the cat, and log some results of mixture versus rpm at full throttle we could pretty easily tell if it is the same.
If somebodyis interested in doing this email me and I can provide details. In general a kit like this with sensor and metereing device with logging capability costs around $500 USD.

2) In general anything that improves airflow will work well with our kit. We adjust fuel based on the airflow detected by the MAF, so more air will be accounted for.

3) We can ship anywhere Fedex or DHL deliver.

Hope this all makes sense!

JimW

12-11-2003, 05:39 PM

Hello: canzoomer, I am reading this with great interest, and although I do not have and RX8 as of yet, this mod has caused me to consider this car in a different light. what name brand upgrades do you recommend with the ecu trick? and although I like the additional power I cant stand a loud car, can you recommend something that is catless yet is quiet such as a resonator ? Is the car obnoxiously loud without the cat or is it tolerable to the neighbors. also has anyone timed the car with these mods, I'm interested to find out, and last question, I heard that Mazda programed the ECU to run rich for 20,000 miles (break-in) and that it's supposed to lean out thereafter, is there any credibility to this and if so will your ECU trick cause the car to run cautiously lean at that point. sorry about the long post,. Thanks, Jim W.

Omicron

12-12-2003, 11:23 AM

I can field a couple of these questions, Jim.

It's been noted repeatedly throughout the forum that intake and exhaust mods yield minimal gains, 3-5 HP each if that, regardless of what the manufacturers claim. Mazda did a pretty good job with the factory intake and exhaust, so you could just leave them stock and still reap the benefits of Canzoomer's ECU piggyback mod.

That being said, I can tell you that I have both a Borla exhaust and the Rotary Extreme Intake, and neither one make the car appreciably louder. The Borla is much deeper and fuller sounding, and no louder at cruise. At full throttle, it is a bit louder, but mostly deeper. The intake is definitely louder at full throttle, but not otherwise. Neither one of these mods will piss off your neighbors or make you car sound like some rice-mobile and both sound GREAT! :D

Finally, it's been rumored that there is some 20,000 mile "switch" to the ECU a/f mixture, but that's all that is - a rumor. The same rumors have said it kicks in at 2,000 or 5,000 or 7,500 or 10,000 or 15,000 miles. Regardless, even if there is such programming in the ECU, the Canzoomer mod will not be affected, as it intercepts the a/f info from the ECU and sends out it's own a/f info instead.

Hope this helps.

RX-8 friend

12-12-2003, 12:30 PM

Also, as posted by doc, the Borla and ECU mod combination seem to give a bonus in output HP, according to the butt dyno (which is why we feel the need to make further measurements - we need to understand why). Perhaps the stock ECU is somehow "holding back" the aftermarket exhausts. Once the data is in, we can speculate further.

QuantumTheory08

12-12-2003, 02:31 PM

.....that took some time to read.

canzoomer: I am patiently waiting to order....just as you have been very patient in this thread - impressive.

...this reminds me of gold being refined by fire! Heat it up til it melts, then remove the sleg from the top and view the beautiful mirror qualities of pure gold; you'd have to see it to understand what I'm talking about.

Thank you, canzoomer and the rest of you for all your input and thoroughness.

-jcs-

tommy12g

12-12-2003, 09:23 PM

Update?

JimW

12-12-2003, 11:10 PM

Thank You, Omicron. I was afraid to say rice-mobile without offending anybody, and it's O.K. that kids do this, it's just not my thing, to have a car (pardon the expression), sound like a bad fart! Do you have a cat on your Borla system, and if you keep a cat on will the mod still produce the same output with stage 2, I know it will already shorten the lifespan to 1/2 from the earlier posts, but it might still be worth it so you won't get hit with a fine if your caught catless. Thanks and I'm pretty much dead set on this car, just for the sheer fun factor alone!

success07

12-13-2003, 01:45 AM

Holy crap that was alot reading! I don't think I read anything that long the whole 9 years I was in college! It just took me over an hour and a half to go through this whole thing! (including my response) Some things I had to read more than once due to the advanced technical jargon you smart guys were throwing down. "Hooked on Phonics" didn't work as well for me as my parents might have hoped it would. I feel that I need to replenish my electrolites with some Gatorade. iye corumba!

Just a little humor for an otherwise intense thread. Though it did tend to settle down toward the end.

I'm really glad to see that this kind of discussion can be held here because there is alot of knowledge out there the be shared through alot of experienced individuals. Those of us that don't have that knowledge but are enthusiasts, share in your passion to really see what this renesis rotary engine can do when tweaked a little bit. I personally want to learn more. Of course that means I'll have to take the time to read everything; BUT in the end I will truely be the one who benefits here. Along with all the others in my same boat.

So I say thank you to all of you that take the time to put this stuff together. Good stuff though from all parties envolved. 'Canzoomer' I applaud your tenacity in trying to provide all of us as well as yourself with better performance. I believe that I will look into ordering the Stage 1 very soon, if in fact there are some still available.

I look forward to future threads. Time to turn in, it's 1:43am and the little lady has been asleep for a few hours. Quitely I sneak myself back into the bedroom..........ooops, kicked the cat, damn, now shes awake!

Omicron

12-13-2003, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by JimW
Thank You, Omicron. I was afraid to say rice-mobile without offending anybody, and it's O.K. that kids do this, it's just not my thing, to have a car (pardon the expression), sound like a bad fart! Do you have a cat on your Borla system, and if you keep a cat on will the mod still produce the same output with stage 2, I know it will already shorten the lifespan to 1/2 from the earlier posts, but it might still be worth it so you won't get hit with a fine if your caught catless. Thanks and I'm pretty much dead set on this car, just for the sheer fun factor alone! Happy to help.

Right now, I have the Borla and the stock cat. I will be adding the Stage I mod to this, which is safe for the stock cat. When Maurice comes out with the Stage II kit, I will be replacing the stock cat with one from Random Technologies that will handle the extra heat. It's still in development but will be out soon. Stage II with the stock cat will produce close to the same HP gain, but will burn out the stock cat prematurely. I'm not willing to do this, as I may need it again to pass emissions when my car is due to be tested in 4 years. (In my state, new cars are emissions exempt for 4 years :D ) I suspect my car will pass emissions even then with the Stage II and Random cat, but if it doesn't I can just unplug the ECU mod and put the stock cat back on.

The RX-8's an awesome car, even without mods.

RX-8 friend

12-13-2003, 01:19 PM

Was riding in Canzoomer's last night (to car wash, then to garage for more work on stage 1 mounting details). With him driving, it can get a little scary ;) . Heavy foot, if you know what I mean. It's close to my 3rd gen with the stage 1. Got to go back over there now, to do more work. Don't want you guys to lynch me ;) .

loco4rx8

12-13-2003, 02:39 PM

This thread really has me drooling. :D

JimW

12-13-2003, 04:58 PM

First of all I just have to say that all of you are great bunch of people, this is the best forum I have been associated with due to the friendly and helpful nature of it's members. Secondly: due to canzoomers hard work and dedication and also his willingness to share his mod for and exceptional price, has helped me decide to purchase this car, I ordered a titanium GT with aero, Thankfully at the S plan price. Omnicrom: I will be ordering soon, and although my state" Florida", discontinued emissions testing, I like the idea of the random tech cat, I don't want the cat to fail eventually causing a blockadge of exhaust ( not good), this is when things can really start to heat up, + I don't want to contribute to the destruction of the environment. Anyway I can't wait, this is the most fun of all the cars that I considered, G35 6 M.T. sedan, Acura Tl ( to much $) and Saab 93 aero. The other cars were more practical for room, but none matched the price ( S Plan) and sheer fun factor. I will keep in touch soon. Take care, Jim W.

Omicron

12-13-2003, 05:10 PM

Hey Jim - CONGRATS!!!!!!! :D :D :D When do you take delivery?

I'm an S-plan kinda guy too. Well, sorta... when I got my '8 in early October, no dealerships were offering the S-plan, so I split the diff with the dealership and got about $1400 off MSRP.

Oh, and if you ARE planning on getting the Random cat, you might as well get the Stage II mod as well - it's good for more like +40 WHP. :D

JimW

12-13-2003, 09:28 PM

hey, it sounds like you got pretty close to the S plan price anyway, isn't it great! I am getting delivery Mon. I'll break the car in nice and easy and then have fun, hopefully by then you guys should have everything worked out and the Random Tech cat will be ready. do you know what the diameters of the cat and Borla are? I know theres not much room! 40 + W.H.P. is outstanding, I'm sure you can feel a big difference on the butt dyno with that!

Omicron

12-14-2003, 12:55 AM

Monday??? Wow, that's FAST for a car you ordered. I would bet they found the one you wanted at another nearby dealership.

Borla cat-back pipe (from the cat to the muffler) is 3 inches in diameter, not sure about the cat itself. Check with Xavier296 in this thread, he's working with Random Technologies for Canzoomer, and might know the dimensions of the cat: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16228

FastRX8

12-14-2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by Omicron
I can field a couple of these questions, Jim.

It's been noted repeatedly throughout the forum that intake and exhaust mods yield minimal gains, 3-5 HP each if that, regardless of what the manufacturers claim. Mazda did a pretty good job with the factory intake and exhaust, so you could just leave them stock and still reap the benefits of Canzoomer's ECU piggyback mod.

That being said, I can tell you that I have both a Borla exhaust and the Rotary Extreme Intake, and neither one make the car appreciably louder. The Borla is much deeper and fuller sounding, and no louder at cruise. At full throttle, it is a bit louder, but mostly deeper. The intake is definitely louder at full throttle, but not otherwise. Neither one of these mods will piss off your neighbors or make you car sound like some rice-mobile and both sound GREAT! :D

Hope this helps.

Hallo omicron,
Thanks for your report.
My english is not first class, thats why I am asking.
Are you saying the Rotaryextreme intake is not totally fullfilling your expectation?
Are you saying the gain of tourgh is hartly to be felt.
Would you buy it again.
I am not interrestet in different piping.
Ho does it affect the max speed?
Tanks
Axel

Omicron

12-14-2003, 03:01 PM

Hi Axel -

No, I am not saying the RE CAI doesn't fulfill my expectations. In fact, I am quite happy with it, and my "butt dyno" tells me it definitely makes a difference. I cannot say exactly how much of a difference, but there definitely is one. I plan to get the car professionally dyno'd as soon as I can... probably sometime in January, if not sooner.

I quoted the above 3-5 HP gain numbers based on what people on the board who have dyno'd their cars have reported for aftermarket exhaust systems. As far as I know, no one has dyno-tested the Rotary Extreme CAI besides the manufacturer, who claims somewhere between 10-15 HP gain.

IMHO, I think the RE CAI is money well spent. Stay tuned to the "Mazdaspeed/Aftermarket Performance" section of the board for my dyno results sometime soon. Hope this helps.

canzoomer

12-14-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Omicron
Hi Axel -

In fact, I am quite happy with it, and my "butt dyno" tells me it definitely makes a difference. I cannot say exactly how much of a difference, but there definitely is one. I plan to get the car professionally dyno'd as soon as I can... probably sometime in January, if not sooner.

As a general rule of thumb a "butt dyno" will provide a discernible difference at around 10hp change.

Of course sound is a huge psychological modifier factor.

Generally if it sound louder, it "feels" faster.

If you put in good earplugs and test with and without it, and you actually feel a change then the 10-15hp claim may be true..

Xavier296

12-14-2003, 06:08 PM

The Random Tech mid-pipe and cat has 3 inch inlet and outlet, replacing the stock cat that has about 2.6 inch inlet and 2.75 outlet. There is no resonator on the Random setup. One plus to this is that the pipe is MUCH farther away from the heat shields, curing the problem with heat in the drink holder and console area. Haven't had chance to test the "butt dyno" yet, but a real dyno run next week should answer some questions. Willing to answer any questions, just PM. No price yet, delivery date around mid January.

FastRX8

12-15-2003, 03:21 PM

Thanks Omicron
Question for canzoomer:
We in Germany in our Forum are discussing your stage 1 product.
It feels like one has to test in in our cars and see if its the same gain like in Amerika.
THE Rx8 is just released in Germany so everything will just start.
I get my RX8 in Feb. and would like to test your tuning stage 1.
In our Forum some people want to order it to.
So my Question is :when would it be possible to have a kit with switch in Germany?
Do you have an Dynochart?
By the way I am going to put this in the forum.
Thanks
Axel

SunDiver

12-15-2003, 03:33 PM

I too would like to try this on my UK model RX-8. I'm due to collect the car first week of January. It's a 231hp UK model. I have both a wideband and laptop datalogging facilities. I've done a lot of tuning in the past on my MX-5 (Miata in the US) - it runs a turbo and makes around 250hp / 230lbft at the 'wheel. I'd certainly be interested in giving it a go on the UK model. As to marrying it with a Borla, I could try that too; years ago my first MX-5 modification was to swap out the OEM exhaust for a Borla.

When it's available, I'd certainly be interested in buying one to see how things go on a UK model. Also happy to supply ECU wiring information and WB data if required.

All the best

RX-8 friend

12-15-2003, 06:26 PM

Right now the prototypes are the only ones out. They require "some fitting". The final version should be ready soon (fits completely in ECU box - no wires to run - unplug stock - plug in Stage I).

We are working on a mod. to allow dynoing without triggering the ABS and upsetting the ECU (putting the car in limp mode). This problem occurs even with traction control turned off. Have done it in "hack mode", now trying a more elegant method. Once that is working, dyno results will be possible. This mod. may be required to drag race the car, as a good burnout will trigger limp mode.

More on this later.

4thGen

12-15-2003, 09:13 PM

With all this talk about the Random Tech cat, I think most people are forgetting how illegal it is to replace a cat. Supposedly one will fail a visual inspection if he replaces the stock cat (although I'm not sure how a shop could confirm the Random Tech cat is not OEM). Does anyone know of a way of replacing the stock cat and getting away with it?

RX-8 friend

12-16-2003, 12:06 PM

The Random Tech cat I saw was pretty shiny! It would fail visual for sure ;) . If you put stock looking heat shields around it you might pass.

TiRX8

12-16-2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by Omicron
Say WHAT??!!??

Are you saying that ALL dyno tests done to the car up to this point, by other vendors and such, were with the car in LIMP MODE?

Let's be clear here - this is critical. If you are correct, and can prove it, then all the HP numbers that have been bandied about up till now, such as 188 WHP being the "real" number the car puts out, are WRONG, and the actual is much higher. The lower numbers were generated because the car was on a dyno, and went into limp mode as a result. Is that what you're saying?

Also, are you saying that even if the car is not on the dyno, one good burnout will cause the car to go into limp mode and drastically cut power??? If that's the case, then every test that's been done up to now will be giving wrong performance numbers. Car & Driver, Road & Track, Autoweek, etc, etc - all WOULD have gotten better 0-60 times if the burnouts they did to maximize those times hadn't put the ECU into limp mode. In other words, without this limp mode thing, the car would have gotten better 0-60 times... right?

See what I mean? Heavy stuff. Please clarify. Thanks. Canzoomer found a way to "trick" the ECU in order to get accurate readings. That's why he claims the current 238hp is inaccurate and that it is closer to 225hp.

MazdaManiac

12-16-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by TiRX8
Canzoomer found a way to "trick" the ECU in order to get accurate readings. That's why he claims the current 238hp is inaccurate and that it is closer to 225hp.

Why did you move your response over to here?
Just curious.

93rdcurrent

12-18-2003, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by 4thGen
With all this talk about the Random Tech cat, I think most people are forgetting how illegal it is to replace a cat. Supposedly one will fail a visual inspection if he replaces the stock cat (although I'm not sure how a shop could confirm the Random Tech cat is not OEM). Does anyone know of a way of replacing the stock cat and getting away with it?

You can legally replace the stock cat if it was damaged, like say by a screw driver and hammer, on accident while repairing the something or other under the car... This accidentally happened to my '91 Toyota MR2 Turbo. Someone in engineering had the crazy idea to put a Corolla cat in it which required the tubing to be reduced in diameter before and after the cat. An accidental hit with the screwdriver and hammer and wallah, NEEDS a new one and now aftermarket is ok. Just as an FYI we opened it up to 3" diameter to allow more breathing and less backflow pressure to the stage II Turbonetics upgrade. he he...

RX8 fever

12-19-2003, 05:43 AM

"Originally posted by hogcar
Answer the question where are the results??? I figured
I should post over here so you would STOP telling me
about all of the missed posts that I need to read.
I need to start selling a mystery product and get several
testimonials of support, then I could accept a ton of
orders and collect the money before posting real world
results. Racing Beat had a Mazda rx8 well before they
were being sold. Don't you think they have the r&d to
develop these products or could it be that there is no
free lunch and that their reputation would be hurt
if they sold products that were not as advertised? "

"Hogcar, this sounds suspiciously like a troll post. If you have legitimate questions, you'd be better served to ask them politely, instead of coming out swinging.

Sorry to say this, but if you want info on this mod, you need to read the histories. There is far too much info to summarize it all for you because you "demand" it.

As for your results question, just a few posts up it was stated clearly that Canzoomer's dyno results will be posted soon. If you want to wait for them, please do so.

If on the other hand you are trolling and looking for a fight, then you can consider this a polite warning. Thanks."

__________________
- Omicron -

Hogcar is right. He is not thrashing the board. I also read all the threads and it doesnt do anything to take away the uncertainty.
People are asking questions to Canzoomer's (price increase,testing etc) and he doesnt respond. Well he just responded to a question about where the piggyback connects to, but he doesnt want to answer anything else.
It is not about trolls, is about consumers tired of being taken advantage of. If there is a price for a product, you must know exactly what you are paying for. It is not enough only by comments of few people who had tested the unit with Him

Omicron

12-19-2003, 07:05 PM

He most certainly does respond: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16692&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

FastRX8

12-21-2003, 05:45 PM

Hallo Canzoomer,
Here an other question from the german Forum
Is your tunig 1.Stage working in the same way as in Amerikan cars, or do we need to first put the lambda-sonde in front of the catalisator and send you the results for different programming of your device, or will your settings work in europfean car simmilar?
It appears that between two rx 8 the accuracys of factorysettings could differ a lot.
You can see it in the different fueleconemys and performances in test and writings in the forum, is that so?, and how does this affect your modifications? does not every car needs a individual setting to have max results, or is this not of much importance?
Thanks
Axel
Thanks for
answering my Questions via e-mail:)

TeKP

12-28-2003, 11:06 AM

With all the talk about the cat not being able to handle the heat if you advance the timing or having its life shortened by leaning the air to fuel ratio, I have a question. What happens when you burn up the cat. Does it actually restrict airflow and slow the car down or does it just no longer clean up the exhaust properly.

Omicron

12-28-2003, 12:24 PM

As far as I know, it just doesn't clean up the emissions properly.

MazdaManiac

12-28-2003, 08:11 PM

QuantumTheory08

12-28-2003, 09:49 PM

...Maniac,

Ceramics "melt" at much higher temps than metals. The "catalyst" in the ceramic is what is destroyed by the heat, not the ceramic part.

Anyone else want to comment on this?

MazdaManiac

12-28-2003, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by QuantumTheory08
...Maniac,

Ceramics "melt" at much higher temps than metals. The "catalyst" in the ceramic is what is destroyed by the heat, not the ceramic part.

Anyone else want to comment on this?

Perhaps.

Ever see inside a catalytic converter that has failed this way?
I have.
The substrate melts and fuses into an irregular, impassible glob.
I'm sure the palladium and such goes way before that point, but it leaves the converter as vapor.
All catalytic converters will fail that way over time, but it is exacerbated by high post combustion EGTs.

Omicron

12-29-2003, 12:34 AM

I stand corrected. :)

241Commuter

12-29-2003, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by TeKP
With all the talk about the cat not being able to handle the heat if you advance the timing or having its life shortened by leaning the air to fuel ratio, I have a question. What happens when you burn up the cat. Does it actually restrict airflow and slow the car down or does it just no longer clean up the exhaust properly.

I've never seen the inside of a cat so I'll take the word of the above comments that stuff melts and flow-through becomes restricted. What I have observed on my '83 Bronco was that the engine overheated no matter how much servicing I did to the cooling system. The problem was corrected when I had the cat replaced. The muffler guy diagnosed the problem by banging on the cat and detecting a rattle which he said was the catalyst broken into briquets. There was only 80,000 miles on the Bronco when I had that problem.

RX-8 friend

12-29-2003, 01:08 PM

Different cats. fail in different ways. The newer styles are harder to plug. The ceramic doesn't melt, per say, it cracks from the extra high heat and cooling extremes. At least the ones I've seen did. Sometimes it's funny (if you don't have to pay for it). The 3rd gen 7 pre-cat (in the downpipe) would fail and the pieces would fall into the main cat and plug it. Designed to fail?

The previously mentioned Random Tech "jewellery cat" has no ceramic at all. It's a metal spiral coated with the catylist. Appearantly the metal spreads the heat better so the catylist is more efficient and the metal can handle the temp. extremes better. Different cats. are now also designed to do different jobs. One takes care of hydrocarbons, one NOx, one CO, and combinations of these. That's why many cars have more than one. Also most cars have a small cat very close to the exhaust port of the engine (called a "pre-cat"). These are there to take care of startup emissions. They are small and close to the heat source, so heat up to working temps. faster. So far as I know, nobody checks that these are working, but I wouldn't be surprised if Calif. starts soon. Up to now it's been a "visual confirmation" check.

So if you manufacture cats. are you running a "cat house"? ;)

TeKP

12-29-2003, 01:33 PM

Does the rx-8 have one of these pre-cats?

labrat1123

01-01-2004, 01:47 AM

Couple of things...

1. Wouldn't I want to use a mid-pipe with an O2 bung to retain the O2 sensor w/ the Stage 2 instead of using the "fooler"? (Irregardless of the narrowband/wideband issue with the stock sensor)

2. I remember an interview w/ one of the Import Drag guys, maybe Abel Ibarra, saying they had switched to the Iridium(sp?) spark plugs because of the glowplug/preignition problem. Anyone else using these plugs?

MazdaManiac

01-01-2004, 03:39 AM

Originally posted by labrat1123
2. I remember an interview w/ one of the Import Drag guys, maybe Abel Ibarra, saying they had switched to the Iridium(sp?) spark plugs because of the glowplug/preignition problem. Anyone else using these plugs?

All of us are.
Iridium plugs are a stock part on the RX-8.

IZoomZoomI

01-03-2004, 11:47 PM

can the unit be link to apexi piggy back unit?

StealthTL

01-04-2004, 12:46 AM

You are correct, Mr. Labrat - your mid-pipe would have an O2 bung, but the '8 uses before & after O2 sensors, the fooler would be needed for the 'after' sensor.

S

devious12

01-06-2004, 11:15 PM

Please email me with any information on how I can purchase this kit. devious121212@yahoo.com Thanks

devious12

01-06-2004, 11:25 PM

Do you have more info on where to place an order for the stage II kit? Thanks

AndyPearce

01-09-2004, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by SunDiver
I too would like to try this on my UK model RX-8. I'm due to collect the car first week of January. It's a 231hp UK model. I have both a wideband and laptop datalogging facilities. I've done a lot of tuning in the past on my MX-5 (Miata in the US) - it runs a turbo and makes around 250hp / 230lbft at the 'wheel. I'd certainly be interested in giving it a go on the UK model. As to marrying it with a Borla, I could try that too; years ago my first MX-5 modification was to swap out the OEM exhaust for a Borla.

When it's available, I'd certainly be interested in buying one to see how things go on a UK model. Also happy to supply ECU wiring information and WB data if required.

All the best

Any update on this, has anyone supplied Canzoomer with the appropriate data to determine if this mod will work with the UK/Europe ECU?

I imagine it will as it seems to be bringing it closer to the ECU map of the Japanese RX8 (well the figures suggest so to a complete novice like me!)

canzoomer

01-10-2004, 02:53 PM

We have recently shipped test units to users / tuners in Australia, the UK, and Germany.

I have received wide band sensor readings from users in Australia and the UK.

What we have seen so far is that the tuning maps there are similar or identical to what we see here.

Once we get some feedback from these people in actual use of our kits we will then be able to definitively post more info on this.

canzoomer

01-10-2004, 02:58 PM

Regarding O2 foolers:

A friend here in Alberta is running a midpipe with a Random Tech cat, and the O2 sensors install in bungs, and has had no issues.

Random also built and installed test units in cars in the Atlanta area and they too see no problem, and have not had to use O2 foolers.

With a Random 700099 high flow cat in a custom mid-pipe, high temperature resistant cat in your mid pipe you do not seem to need an O2 fooler, the flow is better, and performance gains are noticeable, ASSUMING YOU HAVE INSTALLED a TUNING to allow the engine to use proper fuel/air mixtures.

As for longevity of this cat, the oldest examples are now months in use, and have encountered no problem so far.

RX-jimenez

01-11-2004, 12:17 AM

i want to make it simple, with the stage 1 is easier if i have to take it back to the dealership for any warranty?? and what about the sensor is receving from the tires while is spinning faster? is allready upgraded? that mean too that i can use the exhaust and the intake with the stage 1 rigth??

canzoomer

01-11-2004, 01:22 AM

Originally posted by RX-jimenez
i want to make it simple, with the stage 1 is easier if i have to take it back to the dealership for any warranty?? and what about the sensor is receving from the tires while is spinning faster? is allready upgraded? that mean too that i can use the exhaust and the intake with the stage 1 rigth??

Our kits bolt in, with no permanent modifications. You can remove it and take it right back to the way it was before.

You can also leave it in, turn it off, and there is no sign it is there.

To find it they would have to remove the ECU box cover.

And there is no normal service reason for doing that.

About to post a thread on installation method.
Lots of pics.

Take a look and you will see what is involved.

WHealy

01-11-2004, 01:26 AM

Maurice,

Good to see you posting again. I trust that's a good sign. As in light nearing the end of the tunnel. Hope all continues to go well.

RX-Nut

01-11-2004, 01:51 AM

Sorry, I got a probably a dumb question.. but these threads are HUGE and couldnt find an answer..

Where is the ECU located on the car anyway? And with this plugin box, is it somewhere you can easily get to, as you say?

Guess I should wait for the pics eh.. heh

canzoomer

01-11-2004, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by RX-Nut
Sorry, I got a probably a dumb question.. but these threads are HUGE and couldnt find an answer..

Where is the ECU located on the car anyway? And with this plugin box, is it somewhere you can easily get to, as you say?

Guess I should wait for the pics eh.. heh

I just posted instructions with pics in a new thread here.

The ECU box is at the very front, under the hood, on the passenger side.
It is the black plastic box next to the battery, closest to the right.

MadJoker

01-12-2004, 08:42 PM

found this about octane, hope it helps

http://www.btinternet.com/~madmole/Reference/RONMONPON.html

Madjoker

canzoomer

01-12-2004, 11:51 PM

Good, but we have done the whole fuel/octane/additives thing to death a couple of months back.

Another good link:
http://www.cheresources.com/greengas.shtml

MadJoker

01-14-2004, 12:03 AM

Yeah I read and was lost in all of that :eek:

Madjoker

Krashoper

01-14-2004, 01:18 AM

canzoomer.

ECU is basically a remaping of Fuel/Air/ignition? since each exhaust systems has it on performance characteristic. would the maping of the ECU base on the type of the aftermarket exhaust improve the performance more?

your input will great appreciate. thanks.

som

canzoomer

01-14-2004, 04:27 AM

Originally posted by Krashoper
canzoomer.

ECU is basically a remaping of Fuel/Air/ignition? since each exhaust systems has it on performance characteristic. would the maping of the ECU base on the type of the aftermarket exhaust improve the performance more?

your input will great appreciate. thanks.

som
Our Stage1 device over-rides the ECU to adjust the fuel/air mixtures.
The Stage2 adds ignition advance over-rides and a more aggrressive mixture level.

In general the way it works is based on data it collects from the MAF (air flow sensor) throttle positon sensor, O2 sensor.

If you improve air flow by using a better flowing exhaust system, for example, it properly compensates for the air flow rate and adds the appropriate mixture level of fuel.

As it is a piggy back it does not directly control the fuel injection duty cycle.
Here is basically how it works:
We run a stock engine at various throttle, rpm, and other sensor data ranges, and measure the mixture level that the ECU adjusts the air/fuel mix to.
We enter a setting for a series of points, separated by 100rpm intervals, to add or take away fuel from the mix provided by the ECU's control of the fuel injection system.

The way we do this is by telling the ECU that it is getting more or less air as measured by the MAF, and the ECU responds with the the actual changes to mixture by djusting the fuel injection duty cycle.

Let's say at 1/2 throttle, 5,000rpm we have observed that the ECU is running 10% too rich a mixture level.
We then feed the ECU a modified signal from the MAF that tells the ECU that is its getting less air intake as detected by the MAF than is real.
The ECU reacts by cutting the amount of fuel to match the new "faked" air input level.
We then re-test, and confirm that under this condition we now have the correct mixture, or adjust further until we have that "dialed in"
Then we do the same at the next rpm level, then at the next throttle position level, and so on.
It is a 2 dimensional grid of throttle and air flow measurements, with adjustment levels for each point on that grid.
Now, we add the readings from the exhaust O2 sensor to calibrate the emissions levels of hydrocarbons.
So it becomes a 3D grid of adjustments.

Our computer measures the sensor conditions 50 times per second, and adjusts the readings sent to the ECU each tme, by looking up the correct point in the grid maps and sending the necessary compensations to the ECU MAF input signals.

Ideal mixture levels produce the most power.
Technically speaking the most efficient burn level is aroud 14.6:1 mixture levels. When you are cruising with partial throttle that is what we make it do.

When you open up the throttle we make it a bit richer, as at mostly open or WOT throttle conditions this 14.6 mix would produce "knocking" or "pinging" which is when the mixture explodes instead of evenly burning.
We enrich the micture to about 13.2:1 at full throttle level to prevent that risk.

One may set it more agressively, perhaps to a 13.7:1 mix, and get more power, but then one needs to make sure the fuel is at the proper, higher octane levels, and there is still an increased level of risk of detontation.

At a 13.7:1 mix at full throttle one gets about 45hp gained over stock.
At 13.2:1 one gains about 20-25hp

We are providing the latter in Stage1.
A good safe map that will not knock, even if you use less than optimal gas, or are running at harsher atmospheric conditions.

The stock tuen on an RX-8 runs mixture levels as rich as more than 10:1 at WOT. this is why it loses power. It is like driving around with the choke stuck on.

Stage2 uses the more aggressive maps, and adds a few degrees of ignition advance to make more power.
One HAS to use at least 91 octane fuel to run safely.

However as we gain on power, the exhaust gas temperatures get higher, so one can not use a stock cat with Stage2, as the heat would strip the coatings off the cat's ceramic bricks, rendering it useless and damaged.
With Stage1 we stay in the safe range of temperatures.
Still it may reduce cat life, to say 50,000 miles, instead of the 120,000 the new EPA2 regulations require.

By tuning and adjusting these "maps" we produce a set that forces the ECU to provide the preferred corrected mixture levels.

So it definitely works with other aftermarket performance items to make them work properly.

If an improved exhasut results in more air flow, the maps tell the ECU to provide the correct fuel levels for that rate of airflow and throttle opening.