Originally posted by Omicron
High flow cat and muffler would net you some performance gains, regardless of whether you had nothing, CZ Stage 1 or 2. Some vendors are claiming up to 20 WHP improvements from a midpipe & muffler... a high flow cat + muffler will come close to these numbers.

Both mods work better with better exhaust flow, but Stage 2 requires the new cat, as exhaust temps exceed what the stock cat can handle.

To some degree.
I have doubts about those claims.

If you add more air flow to a stock ECU tune it responds with more fuel. That is about thelast thing we want!

Originally posted by canzoomer
To some degree.
I have doubts about those claims.

If you add more air flow to a stock ECU tune it responds with more fuel. That is about thelast thing we want!

Understanable academically, especially when combine with your tuning experience with the 8. RB also said something similar at first, however, I seem to recall them singing another tune as work really got underway in that direction.

"Intake - We have spent considerable time and effort in evaluating the stock intake system on the RX-8. Although we held some early reservations that a simple "open element filter" intake configuration would produce additional power, our initial testing has shown some promise with this type of intake. But, one negative aspect of this configuration is the extremely loud intake sound that they can produce. Our first experience with one of these aftermarket systems produced an ear-piercing +90db reading (at the driver's seat) at approximately 6000-7000 RPM!"

I am figuring that they are refering to the gain K&N system or something similar as reports here have been that it is LOUD.

What I'd like to see are dyno figures from a car with the RE intake, CZ Stage 1, high temp/flow cat and a cat back exhaust. I'd like to compare those figures to CZ's Stage 1 figures on a stock car...

Canzoomer, i have a question regarding the cat for stage 1, since it wears out early and we don't know how early, how can we tell when it has worn out. I am sure we all love our rx8's but i doubt nebody who has ur kit has 50k miles on their car yet, which is what i believe what the old CA law was for. I was just wondering so i don't damage my engine. Sorry if this has been asked i just read this whole post in one sitting and that's a lot of data.

Stage 1 will not have any effect on the stock exhaust system and cat .
Its only in stage 2 that the temperatures are higher in the exhaust that the stock exhaust and cat can handle thats when you need to change the exhaust .
michael

Originally posted by Rotarian_SC
Canzoomer, i have a question regarding the cat for stage 1, since it wears out early and we don't know how early, how can we tell when it has worn out. I am sure we all love our rx8's but i doubt nebody who has ur kit has 50k miles on their car yet, which is what i believe what the old CA law was for. I was just wondering so i don't damage my engine. Sorry if this has been asked i just read this whole post in one sitting and that's a lot of data.

OK, here is what will likely happen:
We believe the original design and tuning was for a car that had to meet the old regulations that required the catalytic converter to last at least 50,000 miles.
The new EPA2 regulations require the cats to last 120,000 miles.

Mazda re-tuned the cars and made the fuel mixture much richer at higher rpm range.

In comparison between a tune that is stock versus one with the added power levels in Stage1 we saw the exhaust gas temperatures at a peak of 1610F in stock and 1650F with our tune.

Any amount of higher temps will diminish the cat life to some degree. How much can only be told over time, as you allude to above. It will not be likely to make a big difference until you get to around 1750F or higher. We see this kind of a temperature with a more extreme tuning level, with much leaner mixtures.
In our Stage2 map that we wille shipping, we see EGT's up to 1800F peak, and 1760f sustained at high rpm, wide open throttle runs.

That will certainly damage a cat as it will strip the coatings off the catalytic converter elements.

So, to recap:
Stage 1, possibly slightly diminished life.
Stage 2: Remove the stock cat, or kill it.

None of this will risk damaging your engine, or anything else, except the cat in the more extreme tuning parameters.

It is a possibility that the stock cat will not last as long with Stage1 compared to stock.

Let's do some math here.
The current fuel consumption is averaging about 16mpg for the more spirited drivers here.
The Stage1 tune will likely save you about 1mpg in this case.
Let's say you do 12,000 to 15,000 miles per year.
That is about 8-10 years for 120,00 miles.

At 16mpg you will burn about 938 galons of gas a year.
With stage 1 you will save about 55 gallons a year.
At $1.50 to $2.00 a gallon that adds up to about $85 to $110 a year.
Over 5 years that is about $425 to $550 of gas savings.
A new cat from Mazda costs about $1,100
So, if we shorten cat life by half ( 9 years down to 4.5 years) it will cost you about an extra $550 to $675 in replacement cat at 4.5 years.
About $125 a year for 4.5 years use.

That is about the worst case scenario.

I know this way premature in asking but.... How can you tell if your cat has gone bad?

....you may see he or she wearing more leather products.

There may be a nicotine stain on the paw and a new, different crowd your cat hangs around with; be aware of these suttle hints in changed behavior.
:p

......I think in most cases, the cat stops doing it's job in removing nitrogen-oxygen and carbon-oxygen radicals from it's exhaust (they show up on a smog check). Extreme cases are: it melts and is rattling around in there or increased back pressure (decreased performance output).
:D :D :D

Wouldn't the o2 sensor detect it and throw a check engine light?

Originally posted by RX-Nut
I know this way premature in asking but.... How can you tell if your cat has gone bad?

You can not without instrumentation.

The ways it can be diagnosed are:

1) Failure to function. If you go for an emissions test and it fails.

2) Exhaust CO levels are too high. The O2 sensors before and after the cat may cause a fault condition, showing up on the dash as a "check engine". This is less precise, as I have seen cases where people removed the cat and did NOT get the check engine in some cars.
Still, in theory it should happen.

3) By measuring exhaust gas temperatures before and after it.
The cat uses some residual fuel in the exhaust gases to "power" it's process. As a result the temperature after thecat is typically 30F to 50F hotter after the cat.



That is how we monitor a cat for testing.
Insert two threaded bungs, before and after the cat.
Insert pyrometer probes into the bungs.
Hook these up to gauges, warm up the car and drive it.
Observe the EGT's

Originally posted by adrian-1
Wouldn't the o2 sensor detect it and throw a check engine light?

That's true.

So, does a failed cat cause no problems with the car, other than a failed emissions test? In other words, could one drive around forever (until they have to have an emissions test) with a bad cat and not know it with no ill effects to the car?

Yep. A cat is purely for emissions. I think it is possible for it mess up your exhaust flow.. I'd like to hear if it is true. When the crap blows out the back of the cat can't that cause some restriction in the system? I've heard stories of cats being overheated and glowing particles coming out of the exhaust pipes.

Older design cats. would plug up when they failed. That could harm the engine, but anyone who has experienced it would tell you those who damaged their engines from this are idiots. Reason is you get a huge loss of power. If you notice this and do nothing, then you are an idiot, by definition ;) .

Hmmm, glowing particles, and from other threads, flames. I guess the RX-8 is not USFS approved. ;)

....I'm still sticking to "watching" cat behavior and nicotine stains as early signs of trouble.

Originally posted by ranger4277
I've heard stories of cats being overheated and glowing particles coming out of the exhaust pipes.

i watched a girlfreind's mother's car burn down to nothing from a pluged up and overheated cat., about 5 minutes after i helped carry groceries from the car into the house. it started when the cat got so hot that the interior carpet lit up and there went the whole car.

is too early to be worrie about that right????

Has anyone ever tried or marketed a pre-cat pipe that had cooling fins or hundreds of cooling "spikes" designed to reduce exhaust temps to non-damaging levels? The fins or spikes would probably need to be asymmetric to conform to space restrictions and air flow characteristics and possibly have to intrude into the exhaust flow to be effective. Such a device would be costly but perhaps would allow us unwashed masses to install a Stage 2 or extend cat life with a Stage 1, making for some cost recovery.

The problem with cooling the exhaust is difficult to accomplish.

Here's why:

A catalytic converter requires the exhaust gases to be at a specific minimum temperature for it to work. Around 1200F to 1625F

Below that it does not work. This is why there is warm-up time before an emissions test.
With the new EPA2 spec for testing that warmup time is 5 minutes or less.

If you add cooling, to reduce maximum temperatures for WOT runs, then you cool the exhaust down too much for normal driving, and the cat will not work.

One possible method of coolig exhaust to correct temps is to use water injection the the header. When the temps reach a certain level it injects water in a mist.
This is a complicated and expensive procedure.
You need:
Water reservoir.
Injection pump.
Piping.
Pyrometers to measure temps.
Electronic selenoids to turn it on and off.
A control device with logic to manage it all.

A pretty complex and expensive proposition.

And there are down sides, such as the water causing corrosion in the exhaust system.
If you run out of water you can ruin your cat.

In general, if you run a tune level that creates high exhaust temps, you have no chance of meeting emissions specs.

Modern cats will not plug and overheat like some of the older designs, so if you do cause a cat failure, it will not melt the catalyst bricks and cause a fire, or plug the exhaust. It will simply stop working. And that is a $1,200 repair to replace the cat.

OTOH, the cat is in a bolt-in midpipe in the RX-8, so prepping for a test is easy.

If you live in a jursidiction that does on-road spot check inspections, however this will not help you.

California , for example..

Florida though, is a whole different kettle of fish :D

How about taking the stock midpipe with cat and remove everything inside then reinstall the empty shell?

Destroying and emptying the cat has been done but what you guys should keep in mind is that tampering with emissions equipment in such a manner has serious consequences in states or countys where emissions are enforced. So don't get caught. I prefer to go with a high flow and high temp cat. If you go this route make sure that you run your engine to atleast 4500 rpms for 5 min before an emissions test. Don't wait in line for 45 min and just go up and do your run. Pay attention to the person ahead of you and get your car up to temp before making your run for emissions. If your cat doesn't get up to temp it won't work.

Good point 93rdcurrent, Plus I don't think your going to loose that much power having a high flow cat vrs a staight pipe or hollowed out cat (meow). In any case it's definitely not worth getting caught and in having one, while it still might not pass EPA standards, your still preventing some harmful material from damaging the environment!

Originally posted by neit_jnf
How about taking the stock midpipe with cat and remove everything inside then reinstall the empty shell?

That is one expensive shell!
Jurisdictions that do spot checks also require real tests at least annually..

Now if you could find on at a wreckers..

Originally posted by 93rdcurrent
Destroying and emptying the cat has been done but what you guys should keep in mind is that tampering with emissions equipment in such a manner has serious consequences in states or countys where emissions are enforced. So don't get caught...
Darned right.
Laws say $2,500 fine to the individual caught tampering, and $25,000 to a shop caught doing it!

Ouch!!

Oh, yeah, it's a FEDERAL LAW!

Canzoomer - how do you mark up packages for shipping to the UK? I need to know so I can work out import tax / VAT payable on entry etc.

They work the import duty based on the type of item being imported and then the VAT is based on (item price + shipping + import duty) x 17.5% (Ouch!)

Isn't it

( item price + shipping ) * 21% ?

VAT and Automotive Parts Import Tax (3.5%) are separate payments - in that VAT isn't charged on the import duty? Could be wrong, little difference of course, but there you go.

Canadian Prices
$785 + $36 = £317 * 1.21 = £384 all in to the UK?

But buy it in US dollars
$500 + $25 = £270 * 1.21 = £327 all in to the UK?

Anyways, that's my understanding...?

Originally posted by AndyPearce
Canzoomer - how do you mark up packages for shipping to the UK? I need to know so I can work out import tax / VAT payable on entry etc.

They work the import duty based on the type of item being imported and then the VAT is based on (item price + shipping + import duty) x 17.5% (Ouch!)
The provided Commercial Invoice states value of goods as $786 Canadian $ for export to UK. ( for single unit).

Shipping by Fedex Air (insured) is valued at $52 CAD$

Equivalent values stated in pounds is 324 and 21.43

On bulk orders we would state the value at the wholesale raw materials cost factor which is less ( and private information for the use of the customer so it is not stated here).

As far as duty goes the unit IS a computer, and is a zero rated item for duty under Universal Tariff Code 8471.00
You are still liable for VAT charges, however.

For calculation for value you might want to refer to this page:
http://www.hmce.gov.uk/business/importing/faqs.htm#Q How do I calculate the value of my goods at import?

I've been on the Customs and Excise website and they say it would be (assuming it's classified as an automotive part and we group buy some and assume $35 for shipping;

(($500 + $35) * 3.5%) * 17.5% = $650 which is approx £357.

As if by magic, I just had confirmation through of the import tax which is indeed 3.5% on motor parts.

Also, a page I just found suggests the VAT is added after the Import Tax (and thus we are taxed twice.. nice).


By my calculations, that puts the price at:

$500 + $25 = £288 * 1.035 = £298 *1.175 = £351


-andy-

Thanks Canzoomer - you replied while I was typing up my response.

Given your figures and the poorer UK / Can exchange rate, even without import duty it works out as

£406 inc VAT. It may be cheaper for us to ship it to someone in the States who can put the US dollar price on it first!

Originally posted by AndyPearce
Thanks Canzoomer - you replied while I was typing up my response.

Given your figures and the poorer UK / Can exchange rate, even without import duty it works out as

£406 inc VAT. It may be cheaper for us to ship it to someone in the States who can put the US dollar price on it first!

We can declare the value in any currency you prefer.
Weakness or strength of currencies has no effect, however.

Based on:
http://www.xe.com/ucc

One CAD$ converted to U.S.Dollars is $0.749554 USD$
One CAD$ converted to UK Pounds is 0.4136GBP

$0.749554 USD converted to GBP is: .413603 GBP

The correct tariff code for the unit is a COMPUTER.
Not an auto accessory or part.
The fact that one commonly uses it in a car does not alter the fact that it is a digital computer, with input and output ports.

To see the tarriff class we use review:
UTC code 8471.10:

Description: Analogue or Hybrid Automatic Data Processing Machines

http://www.foreign-trade.com/reference/hscode.cfm?code=8471

or for more detail:
http://dataweb.usitc.gov/scripts/tariff/0400c84.pdf

Page 77 of the PDF:
8471
8471.10
Automatic data processing machines and units thereof;
magnetic or optical readers, machines for transcribing
data onto data media in coded form and machines for
processing such data, not elsewhere specified or included:
8471.10.00 00 Analog or hybrid automatic data processing machines . .

Originally posted by canzoomer
A catalytic converter requires the exhaust gases to be at a specific minimum temperature for it to work. Around 1200F to 1625F

Below that it does not work.

I read in Car and Driver that the exhaust from a turbo Renesis is too cool for catalytic conversion so it is doubtful mazda would ever produce a turbo Renesis. Does ne1 know if this is true?

Maurice - I hope that you're still awake!!

If anyone else has any input I would greatly appreciate it as well.

I drove my 8 this evening for the first time in a week, though I did run it this past Thursday just to give the engine some running time in this cold weather.

My concern is this; the check engine light came on this evening and it did not turn off even after I turned the car off and restarted it, checked/ tightened the gas cap, etc. I let it warm up and then took on a 30 min drive. The acceleration was jumpy/ spotty at best, where I've become accustomed to the smooth reving rotary, up to 6500rpm where the Stage 1 kicked in (normally it hits at 5k). Prior to this the car was idling with a putter if you will. It has actually started to do this more often in the past couple weeks. It seems as if it's missing or the engine/ system is just off somehow. The water and oil levels are ok and everything else seems to be in proper order.

I tried to read as much as possible through this thread and others regarding the Stage 1 but I didn't come across anything other than what's posted in this thread about the 'cat' going bad causing the 'check engine light' to come on. I have about 1950 miles on my 8 so I wouldn't think that would be it.

I'm not an engine guy so any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.

Did u turn off the CZ mod and try it and c if accleration was jumpy and the light was still on?

Originally posted by success07
Maurice - I hope that you're still awake!!
I drove my 8 this evening for the first time in a week, though I did run it this past Thursday just to give the engine some running time in this cold weather.

My concern is this; the check engine light came on this evening and it did not turn off even after I turned the car off and restarted it, checked/ tightened the gas cap, etc. I let it warm up and then took on a 30 min drive. The acceleration was jumpy/ spotty at best, where I've become accustomed to the smooth reving rotary, up to 6500rpm where the Stage 1 kicked in (normally it hits at 5k). Prior to this the car was idling with a putter if you will.

Open the cover of the ECU box, and slide the switch on the side of the unit back and forth a few times, and return it to the normal ON position ( to the rear).
Disconnect the battery ground for a few minutes to clear the "check engine"

Try it. Take a 5 minute normal driving run, then use some throttle and see what happens. I suspect the switch might have vibrated and slid to the partially on, partially off position. If so, and this fixes it, tape it to the on position and let me know please.

Thanks guy.

I was one of the first to receive a Stage 1 and they didn't come with the switch.

I just received a PM that thought it could be bad gas. Which is entirely possible but I just filled up w/ 92 Octane last Friday so I've been putting in the best octane that is avaiable.

Any other ideas? Thanks again in advance.

Other than switch or gas, there is little else that comes to mind offhand.

Perhaps try the battery trick, it could be something upset the ECU.
Thebattery disconnect for a few minutes will reset it to original state.

Originally posted by canzoomer
Darned right.
Laws say $2,500 fine to the individual caught tampering, and $25,000 to a shop caught doing it!

Ouch!!

Oh, yeah, it's a FEDERAL LAW!

But hasn't it been mentioned already that swapping your cat for a high flow/high temp cat before 5 years or without having a damaged one is considered "tampering" and thus you'd be fined anyway. The key here may be the "damaged"... opps my screwdriver went right through it when I was putting on my cat-back system...;)

Originally posted by Rotarian_SC
I read in Car and Driver that the exhaust from a turbo Renesis is too cool for catalytic conversion so it is doubtful mazda would ever produce a turbo Renesis. Does ne1 know if this is true?

EXCELLENT!! Thanks for posting this question, because all along I knew I read that somewhere as well but could not remember where.

I've read that and heard from the dealer here in Japan (which are owned by the manufacturer... NOT independent/franchise) that turbos are on the way out because of poor gas mileage and emissions. So my doubts on a turbo rotary are pretty high. Everyone on the forum has been talking about high temp and problems with the high compresion and six port engine, however... maybe the problem is the opposite... low exhaust temps for the cat...

I'll do the battery trick this afternoon but If it turns out to be bad gas, how do I get rid of it all? I have about 3/4 of a tank left.

I doubt it's the gas, but if you want to get it out ASAP you could siphon the gas out.

BTW canzoomer, is there any warranty for Stage 1? Let's say if it had a bad solder joint inside box? It could be the case here if disconnecting/ connecting the battery doesn't work for success07.

Success07, if the check engine light comes back on, I would try removing Stage 1 and disconnect/ connect the battery again. Then if the check engine light doesn't reappear it has to be a problem w/ Stage 1. If it does reappear, take it in to the dealer and have them diagnose it (may be something unrelated to Stage1) plus the Stage 1 unit will already be out and you won't have to worry about the dealership finding it.

Anyone else have ideas?

Oh yeah, here's how to siphon gas......
http://www.misterfixit.com/siphon.htm

Originally posted by adrian-1
I doubt it's the gas, but if you want to get it out ASAP you could siphon the gas out.

BTW canzoomer, is there any warranty for Stage 1? Let's say if it had a bad solder joint inside box? It could be the case here if disconnecting/ connecting the battery doesn't work for success07.

Success07, if the check engine light comes back on, I would try removing Stage 1 and disconnect/ connect the battery again. Then if the check engine light doesn't reappear it has to be a problem w/ Stage 1. If it does reappear, take it in to the dealer and have them diagnose it (may be something unrelated to Stage1) plus the Stage 1 unit will already be out and you won't have to worry about the dealership finding it.

Anyone else have ideas?

Sounds like a plan to me... that's about what I thought of when I read success07's post. Work on narrowing it down as much as you can and after that if things are still FUBAR, then off to the dealer.

Where did you buy the 92 Octane gas from? BP? Shell? Mobile? Competition Brand X? If it's Shell or Mobile, I'd rule out gas... Water in the gas tank... hmm... had a run in with that on my bike before.

Originally posted by Japan8


I've read that and heard from the dealer here in Japan (which are owned by the manufacturer... NOT independent/franchise) that turbos are on the way out because of poor gas mileage and emissions. So my doubts on a turbo rotary are pretty high. Everyone on the forum has been talking about high temp and problems with the high compresion and six port engine, however... maybe the problem is the opposite... low exhaust temps for the cat...

Too cool?
No way.

The stock tuned RX-8 makes up to 1600F at the intake of the cat.
This is the highest EGT i have ever observed on a stock setup.

Biggest change needed would be to reduce initial comprssion ratio from 10:1 to about 9:1 or slightly higher.
Otherwise the amount of boost possible would be pretty small.

And the question of fuel economy and emissions is valid.

Originally posted by adrian-1

BTW canzoomer, is there any warranty for Stage 1? Let's say if it had a bad solder joint inside box? It could be the case here if disconnecting/ connecting the battery doesn't work for success07.

Success07, if the check engine light comes back on, I would try removing Stage 1 and disconnect/ connect the battery again. Then if the check engine light doesn't reappear it has to be a problem w/ Stage 1. If it does reappear, take it in to the dealer and have them diagnose it (may be something unrelated to Stage1) plus the Stage 1 unit will already be out and you won't have to worry about the dealership finding it.


Our warranty is pretty simple:
If it is broken we will fix it.
Send it back and we will test and repair it.
While we are at it we will install the switch too.
And the label.

I agree that the removal and then running is the best way to check if it is gas or something else. Always disconnect the battery, so as to restore the ECU to original settings.

Restore the car back to original, check connections, run it to see how it behaves.

If this clears up the problem send us back the unit to fix.

Thanks.

Quote from Car and Driver

"In turn, this modification yielded lower fuel consumption and produced cleaner exhaust emissions. In the process Mazda made the naturally aspirated 13B twin-rotor Renesis engine about as powerful (at a provisional 247 horsepower) as the previous-generation turbo motor. One of the tweaks is a 30-percent increase in port size. Other additions are a variable-volume intake system and an electronic throttle. The rest is Mazda magic.
But before you start mentally calculating how much more power a turbo version of the Renesis engine will punch out, we have to tell you that relatively cool exhaust gas from turbocharged rotary motors prevents efficient catalytic conversion, making it unlikely we'll see one soon, if ever.

But never say never. Hey, they brought back the rotary, didn't they?"

Can be found at http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=1790

Could be true, but even the experts have off days. Personally i would trust what an informed person from this site would say about a rotary engine more than Car and Driver though.

Ok, I think all is fine now. I disconnected/ reconnected the battery and the "check engine light" went off. It also quit puttering while at idle. I took the car down to the car wash, which is a 1/2 mi. down the road and let it run the whole time while I washed it. I drove back and put her back in the garage for safe keeping. :) I didn't jump on the gas at all to see if the Stage 1 would kick in but everything else seemed to be fine so I didn't bother.

I will report back if anything changes and I truly appreciate everyones help with this matter. You know who you are, Thank you.

Originally posted by canzoomer
Too cool?
No way.

The stock tuned RX-8 makes up to 1600F at the intake of the cat.
This is the highest EGT i have ever observed on a stock setup.

Biggest change needed would be to reduce initial comprssion ratio from 10:1 to about 9:1 or slightly higher.
Otherwise the amount of boost possible would be pretty small.

And the question of fuel economy and emissions is valid.

No no... you are thinking of a N/A Renesis. As I have not owned a turbocharged car, my knowledge here is merely academic, however... as I am understanding it, adding the turbo to the exhaust system is seeing the the post-turbo exhaust gasses being much cooler than before. Or perhaps the problem is only at start-up. This makes more sense to me... as the turbo would be cold at startup as well and make for one more thing (the cat AND a turbo) that will be heated at startup. As the turbo is obviously ahead of the cat, it soaks up the heat until it reaches normal operating temp at which point it'd give off heat. So until the heat exchange has reached this point, the cat is receiving cooler exhaust than when run N/A and thus takes longer to heat up. The time to this point is beyond what EPAII requires for the cat to heat up and work proper thus... "...relatively cool exhaust gas from turbocharged rotary motors prevents efficient catalytic conversion..." being mentioned in the article. Or am I way off here?

success07... glad to hear your baby is running better now. Keep an eye on things and let us know if you have any more problems.

Originally posted by canzoomer
The mapping we use is taking the input from more than the MAF.
We also monitor O2.
We set based on the readings from these, from which we adjust the tune map.


As for knock sensor output, if one is using a map that makes for a knock condition, one is running way too close to the limits to start with. If you are at the point where knock happens, a sensor will not help you.
None of them respond fast enough to offer any real protection in the long run, and will not do anything to prevent it from happening again.

IF the knock sensor is set off, the ECU will go into a fault state, and will have to be cleared of the fault before it will return to normal ECU settings.




So is what mdw3333 is seeing a knock or not? He reports that he did not get a CEL.

Originally posted by canzoomer
No, I really do not think so.
For example I ran about 650km completely stock just before the engine went.
Also, it did not "blow".
It threw a check engine light, then stumblred and deteriorated.
Mazda told me that the failure was due to an oil injection fault.


I had an oil injection system failure on my RX4 back in 1975. It caused one of the apex seals on each rotor to wear down to the point where one of them became dislodged and one shot down the tailpipe and I took it back 4 times after they replaced the engine to find the rattle. Interestingly, it still ran, very poorly, but it ran.

Canzoomer,

This is my first post BTW...LOL! :rock:

Anyways, I am interested in the Stage 1 big time but I need some answers first before I consider it.

1) Do you need a chip replacement if you purchase mods like an intake after the install of the CZ?

2) Are there any pros or cons on purchasing a high flow cat with this setup? Can I use a High flow cat with the stage II (In Florida...No emissions tests)?

3) Is there a website I can go to order this? I am about 2 months away from ordering it.

EDIT:

4) I have a 2005 Rx-8 and I heard the 8 has a smart ECU that typically takes any changes you make in the Piggy Back System and reverts it to stock. Is this not the case with your unit?

5) What happens if we need to take the car in for warrantee and they reflash the stock ECU? Do we need to send you the CZ so you can update its ROM chip?

I appreciate any information you can give me...Thanks!!

1. Do you need a chip replacement if you purchase mods like an intake after the install of the CZ?
No, maybe u wanna to adjust ur map to again or retune.

2) Are there any pros or cons on purchasing a high flow cat with this setup? Can I use a High flow cat with the stage II (In Florida...No emissions tests)?
There is not stage I or 2 different interm of the circuit board. the different is tunning map. Pros might be couple extra whp, some high flow cat able withstand higher heat than stock unit.

3. Is there a website I can go to order this? I am about 2 months away from ordering it.
goto google, and search for canzoomer. u will have a web site to order it. or find the used unit on this forum/ebay

I am no canzoomer, i am just cz unit owner myself

1. Do you need a chip replacement if you purchase mods like an intake after the install of the CZ?
No, maybe u wanna to adjust ur map to again or retune.

2) Are there any pros or cons on purchasing a high flow cat with this setup? Can I use a High flow cat with the stage II (In Florida...No emissions tests)?
There is not stage I or 2 different interm of the circuit board. the different is tunning map. Pros might be couple extra whp, some high flow cat able withstand higher heat than stock unit.

3. Is there a website I can go to order this? I am about 2 months away from ordering it.
goto google, and search for canzoomer. u will have a web site to order it. or find the used unit on this forum/ebay

I am no canzoomer, i am just cz unit owner myself

I figured it would need to be retuned but I was wondering what CanZoomer's policy was for retuning (I should have said that). I.E. would he charge us for it or only charge the shipping and handling fees...ETC.

As far as the CAt is concerned I guess I was worried about future upgrades. So if I had a high flow would it work with Can's Stage II ECU which will obviously increase exhaust temperature...I guess it would also depend on the High FLow Cats temp range.

Anyways thanks for the great info!

i was thinking of buying the stage 1 kit th unit is 500 usd is there anything else u need to buy with that raise the cost

Ok, this is the list of wat i hav to tune the cz

1. CZ (the stage I and Stage II is the same thing, just different map to load it in)
2. the canscan, or the Hymee sCANalyser (coz rx8 got wide band for A/F reading)

Alot of reading/search on this forum about cz tunning, tune on street in a safe environment and safe speed

Or u can always goto dyno tune by urself or professional

there is other choice other than CZ unit for ecu tunning like interceptor

Ok, this is the list of wat i hav to tune the cz

1. CZ (the stage I and Stage II is the same thing, just different map to load it in)
2. the canscan, or the Hymee sCANalyser (coz rx8 got wide band for A/F reading)

Alot of reading/search on this forum about cz tunning, tune on street in a safe environment and safe speed

Or u can always goto dyno tune by urself or professional

there is other choice other than CZ unit for ecu tunning like interceptor


And for my final question...

Are CanZoomer's claims of 25 wheel HP for stage 1 and 55 wheel HP for stage II true and does anyone have a dyno sheet?

Everyone I've talked to so far has told me that its total crap and that those projected figures sound more like an FI application.

The ultimate tune for a NA would be more like +20 RWHP for a daily driver. I'm currently hovering around this number: http://www.nemesis8.com/dyno/

I made 194 hp w the high flow cat, revi (w/o the ram) and cz tunning (W N-flash).

Nemesis, U got torque (13 lbs/ft) and hp than mine (6 Hp)

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1149840&postcount=168

My tunning used to be 13.6 for A/F all the way, but now I tuned it down to 13.2 for 7700 rpm above, and 13.5 from 6200 - 7600 rpm.

I wondered is it because of the light weight pulley and flywheel (?)

nemesis can u pm me your na afr and ingion tune setup i like to see what afr and ingion (miss spell) i can use your set up as a base and see if my car acts with it then go from there

The ultimate tune for a NA would be more like +20 RWHP for a daily driver. I'm currently hovering around this number: http://www.nemesis8.com/dyno/

???

I now have more questions...LOL!! How did you manage 20 wHP? Is that ECU + additional Mods like an intake and exhaust?

So are you telling me that in order to get that much power I will need ECU + Exhaust + intake...Etc.? Basically what mods did you have during that Dyno run?

Also is this using the original CanZoomer maps or did you modify those maps yourself?

BTW...I have limited knowledge when it comes to tuning so please explain a little about what you did. This is my first rotary engine.

Thanks guys! :newbie: :pfanndina

My 7th and 8th run was with the CZ and pulleys added since last year's run.

My map is still only for fuel. It's not complete. I have changed only the cells only for 70-100% throttle and 6200 RPM on up. I don't have the timing changed yet. I need to get my wideband installed this week, so that I have two sensors to data log my AFR.

I have every bolt on short of the header, which may never happen after reading the header threads. I think the lightened flywheel helps down low, and the lightened and underdriven pulleys help up high.

My ECU is pulling timing, so soon I will add back what I need to get a full 30 degrees back. I'm also going to tune for 13.2 to 13.5 AFR or .90 to .92 Lambda.

nemesis can u pm me your na afr and ingion tune setup i like to see what afr and ingion (miss spell) i can use your set up as a base and see if my car acts with it then go from thereI will when I have them complete. Give me about two more weeks :)

Nem,

the future mod.. the weight reduction. :)

Yes - I'm working that next.

Check these two graphs out. I looked up the Interceptor-X and used the same correction factors for a comparison. Mine will get better with timing and a more consistent AFR. My current map is only for fuel at 6200 up and 70% throttle and up. No timing has been added back in. When I get my wideband hooked up, I will tweak this map for 5500 up and add back the timing to get 30 degrees from 6800 on up.

Interceptor on swoope's car:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68469&stc=1
CZ on nemesis8's car:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68660&stc=1

My 7th and 8th run was with the CZ and pulleys added since last year's run.

My map is still only for fuel. It's not complete. I have changed only the cells only for 70-100% throttle and 6200 RPM on up. I don't have the timing changed yet. I need to get my wideband installed this week, so that I have two sensors to data log my AFR.

I have every bolt on short of the header, which may never happen after reading the header threads. I think the lightened flywheel helps down low, and the lightened and underdriven pulleys help up high.

My ECU is pulling timing, so soon I will add back what I need to get a full 30 degrees back. I'm also going to tune for 13.2 to 13.5 AFR or .90 to .92 Lambda.

What do you expect your power to be once your done?

BTW...Thanks for all the info!

An SAE Corrected value above 200 at the wheels

well for that header it was obx even though it looked liked a 1k jp header it wont be the same. re headr i dont really like. the headers im between getting is the feed and rmagic there design differs then re.

Nem
How much mantinance work with the CZ and our learning ecu? In time does the ecu finally overwrite the CZ?
Olddragger
OD, it's a pretty simple item to tune. You basically pull certain data logs from a CANscan device for throttle, rpm, advance, and afr while doing a WOT run from 4K to redline on a track in third gear. Then you import the comma separated log file into a custom Excel spreadsheet to view your data log in graph format. From that you look where you need to pull fuel based on what you find. You will also be able to track your ignition and see if you need to add back what the ECU pulls.

As for the ECU fighting back, just remember what Maurice told us:

"Some of you who are tuning have posted that the car ECU "learns" a long term fuel trim and adjusts against the tuning. You are right!
BUT: The car checks AFR when it is in closed loop mode. That is below 70% throttle, and below the closed loop/open loop transition rpm. So, what IS the transition rpm?
By measurement:
1st gear: 6,200rpm
2nd gear: 5,500rpm
3rd gear: 4,800rpm
4th gear and up - same as 3rd.

So, some lessons to derive from this:
1) Tune above transition point ( 6,200) and do NOT touch the fuel/air below 6,200 unless it is only 5% or less.
2) If you want to tune down to 5,500 avoid full throttle in 1st gear below 6,200
3) If you want it tune more, and want to get around the "learned" long term trims, simply disconnect the battery ground if the ECU "learns" a fuel trim.
This returns the car to default fuel/air settings. Of course it will "learn" again, so this is not a long term solution. I installed a replacement battery ground post that has a 1/4 turn knob to disconnect. This allows for quick and easy resets.

Also, regarding weather and temperatures:
If you tune in cold weather the air is denser. When you run at a higher temp the air is less dense. That means the mixture will be a bit different. Humidity will also affect it. The car has a barometric pressure sensor as well, so it does compensate for altitude and air pressure change due to weather, however it does not have a means for detecting humidity. My advice, if doing fairly aggressive maps is to do a set for both cold/dry conditions and for warm/wet ones. Save them and use as needed."

So....I thought the Stage 1 was designed to be "pre-tuned" ? Now people are talking about tuning them, is that optional, or does it have to be tuned itself after install? I'm kind of technically....slow, and I have no idea how I would go about this, if I were to buy one.

It is pretuned conservatively to be safe with every 8, since tuning parameters are different for each car. People continue to tune so that their map fits exactly with their application. I believe Stage 2 is tuned more agressively, but still too modest for some people's standards.

will stage1 or stage2 work on a 2006 6speed mt
i am in turkey and just bougt the car so i am not sure if it has the same with american one

stage 1 stage 2 stage 3 stage 4.....

Ugg - look, there are no more stages if you ask me. You have to tune the map for your car period. If you tune it for the most HP, then you are likely going to fry the OEM cat, so get a high heat high flow cat midpipe while you are at it.

So it's pretty safe to say that its NOT "plug and play"? I'd have to tune it myself to my car's specific tune? I'm pretty mechanically um, slow, with the rotary, and have never worked on the computer at all....not a good buy for me? Opinions?

It IS plug and play, but without your own tuning your power gain won't be very much, so in that case your purchase would not be worth it. The goal is to tune aggressive enough so that you have a decent power gain, but not too much as to cause pinging or significantly reduce the life of the cat.

AS for plug and play do you tune it with a laptop?

Yes

stage 1 sounds good more info and pics would be good though. i am looking to keep the dealership from voiding my warranty though is it easy to spot or can i hide it.

Its a piggyback so you can kinda hide it ;)