Latest issue of CR just came out -- compared rx8 to STi, EVO, 350Z and Crossfire. The 8 came in 2nd in overall score to STi, but didn't make the "recommended" list because it's new.

Highs -- Smooth-revving engine, handling, ride, shifter, braking, 4-passenger capacity
Lows -- fuel economy

As a point of comparison, since 350Z seems to be the most popular comparison car on this board:

350 Highs: Acceleration, braking, fuel economy
Lows: Ride, noise, visibility, trunk capacity

Other comparisons:
0-60: rx8 6.7, Z 5.4
Quarter mile: rx8 15.2, Z 14.0

Article also claims that 8 requires premium fuel.

The STi is such an ugly piece of crap and they don't handle as well as the RX-8, I can't believe they would chose the STi over the RX-8. The wing on the STi is useless and ugly unless you use it for having picnics on. Lastly, everyone knows AWD cars don't handle well and the interior in the STi is made of recycled milk cartons. I'm canceling my subscription to Consumer Reports!

That should about sum it up...

Originally posted by IkeWRX
The STi is such an ugly piece of crap and they don't handle as well as the RX-8, I can't believe they would chose the STi over the RX-8. The wing on the STi is useless and ugly unless you use it for having picnics on. Lastly, everyone knows AWD cars don't handle well and the interior in the STi is made of recycled milk cartons. I'm canceling my subscription to Consumer Reports!

That should about sum it up...

I can not beleive this is the IKE I know and love...bashing an sti?

My god, people CAN change;)

ike is using sacarsm

I think its a good review and pretty accourate

Originally posted by IkeWRX
That should about sum it up...

Not nearly! You missed the Blue350Z et al Z lovers replies about how there's no possible way the RX-8 could rank ahead of the 350Z, why just look at the 0-60 and 1/4 mi times, CR doesn't have a clue about testing sports cars, they should stick to washing machines, Mazda must have paid off CR big time!

Hey Ike, how about you and us go find a 350Z forum and brag about how our tarted-up economy cars and wimpy no-torque rotary cars beat the 350Z in that CR test? :P :D :cool:

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
Not nearly! You missed the Blue350Z et al Z lovers replies about how there's no possible way the RX-8 could rank ahead of the 350Z, why just look at the 0-60 and 1/4 mi times, CR doesn't have a clue about testing sports cars, they should stick to washing machines, Mazda must have paid off CR big time!

Hey Ike, how about you and us go find a 350Z forum and brag about how our tarted-up economy cars and wimpy no-torque rotary cars beat the 350Z in that CR test? :P :D :cool:

Regards,
Gordon

What's it worth to you? And keep in mind I can be really annoying, and put up a pretty damn good fight when people try to shoot me down :p

Just got the December 2003 issue. They review the WRX STi, RX-8, Mitsubishi Evo, 350Z and the Crossfire.

They gave the WRX the highest score, but it appears to be because they don't have crash and reliability data on the RX-8.

CR's "Recommended" status evidently cannot be given to a car they haven't crashed and "long term tested".

Only significant bone I had with the article was the statement that rotary engines "emissions aren't as clean" [as piston engines].

I've been trying to find the actual emissions numbers for the RX-8, after reading a great thread authored by Buger. A Road & Track article states that the Renesis engine has "reduce[d] exhaust emmisions to one tenth the amount recorded by the previous generations of Mazda rotaries".

If CR is unfairly slamming the 8 on emissions, its time for some reader feedback!

By the way, did the Crossfire or Z finish last?

Crossfire finished last by a wide margin.

"Although a new model, the Crossfire relies on a 7-yr-old design and can't compete with newer sports-car designs."

Highs: Engine, acceleration, braking, fuel economy
Lows: Ride, steering feel and response, shifter, controls, visibility, interior room

The Crossfire is interesting, but not interesting enough, it appears. They aren't selling at all- there's something like an average 103-day inventory of them at dealers currently.

i thought that the 8 did under 6.0 seconds to 60mph, wat the hell

diff magazines get diff numbers...

anywho, i recall someone emissions testing their rx-8 at inspection and it had 0 emissions. now i dont know for sure, but i think 0 emissions is pretty clean
________
Vermont marijuana dispensaries (http://vermont.dispensaries.org/)

Originally posted by mental pimp
i thought that the 8 did under 6.0 seconds to 60mph, wat the hell

Those were pre production cars and also with a 8k clutch drop, perhaps CR wasn't as hard on it... there's also a lot of other factors that could be involved. But 5.9 is the best time I've ever seen and 6.2-6.4 seems fairly common as well.

Originally posted by mental pimp
i thought that the 8 did under 6.0 seconds to 60mph, wat the hell

You must not be a Consumer Reports reader....

They ALWAYS test starting at idle. They do 'real world' testing, not track testing. It is more like the 5 to 60 times the mags get.

The Australian MOTOR magazine did the Australian model at 6.99 sec for 0-100kmh - I did one later on but I am sure I will go under 6.5 as factory claim is 6.2

Consumer Reports probably didn't turn off traction control and they were probably very easy on the clutch.

Think of your grandma with a racing helmet driving a car; that's CR's style. They are 100% unbiased though. I don't 100% agree with their conclusions at times, but at least no Manufacturer persuades their views.

They tested a Montero and got it to rollover pretty easilly. CR made their views known and provided a tape to anyone who wanted a copy. Mitsubishi threatened to sue them, but CR don't take shit from nobody and stuck to their evaluation.

Gotta love 'em.

-Mr. Wigggles

I'd like to take a look at the new issue, do only subscribers have it so far or is it at the news stands already?

Originally posted by IkeWRX
r is it at the news stands already?
My copy came in the mail, yesterday. Their website doesn't show the December isssue, yet.

Originally posted by mental pimp
i thought that the 8 did under 6.0 seconds to 60mph, wat the hell

CR has no idea how to drive performance cars. I've subscribed for years, and have noticed this time and again.

I agree with Omicron that CR isn't really sensitive to reasons why people buy sports cars. These reviews are a little better than other CR reviews I've read in the past but their main criterion is still very much "practicality."

They don't award a "Recommendation" because they lack sufficient reliability and crash test data to make a decision. Fair enough.

But they also list the RX-8 second to the WRX STi on the basis of overall performance in the tests. This in spite of the fact that, after raving about the handling of the RX-8, they say this about the WRX:

"The Subaru WRX STi combines race-car-like acceleration and handling with the practicality of a four-door five passenger sedan... The trade-off is a stiff ride that is jittery but tolerable. There is also constant noise from the engine, drivetrain, and, particularly, the tires. For $6,500 less, you can buy the 227- hp Impreza WRX sedan or wagon. "

A wagon?

Originally posted by selmeralto
I agree with Omicron that CR isn't really sensitive to reasons why people buy sports cars. These reviews are a little better than other CR reviews I've read in the past but their main criterion is still very much "practicality."

They don't award a "Recommendation" because they lack sufficient reliability and crash test data to make a decision. Fair enough.

But they also list the RX-8 second to the WRX STi on the basis of overall performance in the tests. This in spite of the fact that, after raving about the handling of the RX-8, they say this about the WRX:

"The Subaru WRX STi combines race-car-like acceleration and handling with the practicality of a four-door five passenger sedan... The trade-off is a stiff ride that is jittery but tolerable. There is also constant noise from the engine, drivetrain, and, particularly, the tires. For $6,500 less, you can buy the 227- hp Impreza WRX sedan or wagon. "

A wagon?

Yes, a wagon :) I LOVE the sound of the boxer engine, probably in the same way you guys love the sound of the rotary. With a nice exhaust it rivals the sound of some V8s IMO. and is certainly the sweetest sounding 4 banger I've ever heard.

In fact the current SCCA STX Solo2 and Prosolo champ drives a WRX in wagon form. But I shouldn't say that because everyone knows the the WRX doesn't do well in autox... :p

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Yes, a wagon :)

YEAH, a wagon! Aside from the WRX, think of the Legacy GT-B, or Audi S6 and RS-6, S4, etc. Sporty performance, room to haul your gear and a few of your family or friends. Performance wagons are the real sport utility vehicles - not those stupid dressed-up overpriced trucks that never go offroad anyways! ;)

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
YEAH, a wagon! Aside from the WRX, think of the Legacy GT-B, or Audi S6 and RS-6, S4, etc. Sporty performance, room to haul your gear and a few of your family or friends. Performance wagons are the real sport utility vehicles - not those stupid dressed-up overpriced trucks that never go offroad anyways! ;)

Regards,
Gordon

I really really wish Subaru would bring the STi wagon to the US, I would be all over that. The legacy B4 wagon may be a great alternative, we'll see what they finally decide to put in the US spec for an engine. A wagon in the 11s would be quite the sleeper and with an STi engine and turbo that's not all that much in mods. <drools> Though I think if I end up with an STi it will be prepped for the track with the ocassional trip to the strip. Seems the STi guys are starting to make some great impressions at the track as well.

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41274

Ike

I like the Sti alot. It's one heck of a car. If it was'nt for the dealer mark ups and demand, I'd have one instead of the RX-8. Hopefully next year if I save enough money. :)

Originally posted by The Red One
I like the Sti alot. It's one heck of a car. If it was'nt for the dealer mark ups and demand, I'd have one instead of the RX-8. Hopefully next year if I save enough money. :)

All the dealers in my area are selling them for slightly below MSRP or at MSRP, as are many of the other dealers in the country.

Ike

For some reason I don't like the wagon with the newer front ends. They do look right.
I do like the older style wagons though. A kickass car with a ton of utility.

Yeah, I'm a bugeye guy myself, it made them a little more unique.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
All the dealers in my area are selling them for slightly below MSRP or at MSRP, as are many of the other dealers in the country.

Ike

That's a great deal IkeWRX. :eek:

NY has the most crooked dealers in the whole of USA. My Suby dealer had none for display in their showroom and gave me brochures. I've seen around half a dozen STis on the road now. The blue with gold rims is far the best looking with the black in a close 2nd.

Are you saying that the Sti is not selling well?

Originally posted by The Red One
That's a great deal IkeWRX. :eek:

NY has the most crooked dealers in the whole of USA. My Suby dealer had none for display in their showroom and gave me brochures. I've seen around half a dozen STis on the road now. The blue with gold rims is far the best looking with the black in a close 2nd.

Are you saying that the Sti is not selling well?

Well there aren't that many to sell, I would say demand and sales are pretty close. The dealers that I go to were selling them at MSRP even on prebuy when everyone knew if you didn't get the preorder it could be several months before getting one. They just took a stand that they didn't want to screw anyone over considering many of the people buying them were WRX owners and loyal customers. I was at my Suby dealer the day they came out and one of the owners of the first 3 was from Florida, he flew in just to pick up the car. I guess all the dealers in his area wanted 2-5k over MSRP so a $300 plane ticket didn't seem so bad. Have you seen a white one on the road yet, that is by far my favorite color for the STi. NY, Chicago area, Cali, and Florida seem to be the most common places where over MSRP is most common.

Ike

Consumer Report knows shit about cars, that's all I gotta say.

STI has very good cornering actually and I would be watching out for those on the streets/tracks. It's got cheap interior but it does perform well.

Originally posted by P00Man
diff magazines get diff numbers...

anywho, i recall someone emissions testing their rx-8 at inspection and it had 0 emissions. now i dont know for sure, but i think 0 emissions is pretty clean
That was me... Here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9739) is the thread.

Hey mystrx8,

Did your emissions check include NOx, too?

Consumer Reports isn't 100% unbiased--they are subject to their own biases. CR has been a WRX lover for a while now. It doesn't surprise me that they would praise the STI even more.

Originally posted by MrWigggles
Consumer Reports probably didn't turn off traction control and they were probably very easy on the clutch.

Think of your grandma with a racing helmet driving a car; that's CR's style. They are 100% unbiased though. I don't 100% agree with their conclusions at times, but at least no Manufacturer persuades their views.

They tested a Montero and got it to rollover pretty easilly. CR made their views known and provided a tape to anyone who wanted a copy. Mitsubishi threatened to sue them, but CR don't take shit from nobody and stuck to their evaluation.

Gotta love 'em.

-Mr. Wigggles

Originally posted by newport8
Consumer Reports isn't 100% unbiased--they are subject to their own biases. CR has been a WRX lover for a while now. It doesn't surprise me that they would praise the STI even more.

How would them loving the WRX be a bias, the STi is basicly a WRX that handles better and has more power, it only seems to follow they would love the STi as well, not that it's based on a bias...

Originally posted by Charles Cope
Only significant bone I had with the article was the statement that rotary engines "emissions aren't as clean" [as piston engines].

I've been trying to find the actual emissions numbers for the RX-8, after reading a great thread authored by Buger. A Road & Track article states that the Renesis engine has "reduce[d] exhaust emmisions to one tenth the amount recorded by the previous generations of Mazda rotaries
The RX-8 is very clean indeed, as is any car that meets the latest emissions regulations. Was this intended as a criticism of the RX-8's emissions performance or just an observation that it is harder to get rotaries to pass current regulations?

Perhaps, like many people, they got confused between noxious emissions (aka polution) which are regulated, and CO2 (which is not). But then if they were really talking about CO2 emissions then the word "clean" is not correct (CO2 is not "dirty").

According to edmunds.com, the 8 produces 5.3 - 6.3 pounds of smog-forming pollution per 15000 miles versus 12.3 - 12.9 for the Evo 8 and 12.3 - 12.9 for the Infinity G35.

My family's subscribed to CR since the '50's! Traditionally, they tended to have a rather "practical" bias when rating cars and would routinely downrate sports cars because of their "harsh rides", "noise", and "limited luggage capacity". In the last few years, however, they've rated sports cars as they should be, i.e. on how sporty they are. Yes, they rated the RX-8 second, but take it from a long-time reader - they loved it! Some excerpts:

"The RX-8 is a fun-to-drive sport coupe with a practical twist: two small rear-hinged back doors. It has excellent road manners, delivering both agile handling and the most comfortable ride in the group. The transmission glides from gear to gear, and the engine revs with equal smoothness, although fuel economy is the worst of the group."

"The RX-8 provides good isolation from bumps and impacts, and the highway ride is almost sedanlike. Despite its softer suspension, the RX-8 feels sure-footed, agile, and lithe, even in bumpy corners. The steering is quick and communicative, and it responds quickly to changes of direction. The car was stable and balanced at its limits on both our handling course and through our avoidance maneuver."

"A smooth-revving 238-hp, 1.3-liter rotary engine provides lively acceleration, but the car is not as quick as the STi, Evo or 350Z. The six-speed transmission shifts precisely. Expect only 18mpg overall. Braking performance is excellent."

I agree with Three37ny that Consumer Reports has gotten better at reviewing sports cars. I also feel that the positive comments add a great deal of credibility to the RX-8 amongst the general public.

It's a very crowded car market and this review will go a long way toward establishing the RX-8 as a lasting product.

Originally posted by rabinabo
According to edmunds.com, the 8 produces 5.3 - 6.3 pounds of smog-forming pollution per 15000 miles versus 12.3 - 12.9 for the Evo 8 and 12.3 - 12.9 for the Infinity G35.
Can you provide a link to this? I can't find it.

I don't often read Consumer Reports, but isn't it targetted at people who are concerned with practicality and reliability? There certainly are a lot of magazines that are far "better" at reviewing sports cars, if that means evaluating performance and sex appeal.

It was a pleasure to read the CR article....very positive comments on the RX8, its interior, ride, handling, etc. But, indeed it is hard to give CR much credit for knowing cars when the same issue ranks the Ford Focus about the RX8, EVO, STI, Z, etc...

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

Originally posted by Brian Goodwin
it is hard to give CR much credit for knowing cars when the same issue ranks the Ford Focus about the RX8, EVO, STI, Z, etc...

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

Yes i was almost rofl when I saw the Ford Focus at the top of the list. I love CR, been a subscriber for over 20 years, and although I do believe their unbiased, they're not the gospel.

Originally posted by Brian Goodwin
It was a pleasure to read the CR article....very positive comments on the RX8, its interior, ride, handling, etc. But, indeed it is hard to give CR much credit for knowing cars when the same issue ranks the Ford Focus about the RX8, EVO, STI, Z, etc...

Brian Goodwin
Good-Win Racing (http://www.good-win-racing.com)

I'm still trying to figure that one out myself, the SVT focus is a great little car and all... but c'mon... I guess the large interior and practicality of it won them over.

CR is not always right plain and simple.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, the miss statement about "emissions aren't as clean" needed to be dealt with. So I entered the following on CR's discussion forum..

I'd like to know the data behind the statement regarding the Mazda RX8.. "However it gets lower gas mileage and its emissions aren't as clean [as piston engines]. The mileage I can't argue with but I looked up all the cars in the article for emissions on the EPA site http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/select.htm and the results were...

Mazda RX8 - 8
Chrysler Crossfire - 7
Nissan 350Z - 6
Mishubishi Lancer - 6
Subaru Impreza - 6

Higher score is lower emissions, measured in pounds of pollution per 15,000 miles. The Lancer and Impreza ratings are based on the standard cars, but it appears that this wouldn't make up a 6 pound difference in pollution.! Please advise! Does the RX8 deserve an apology for this overstatement?

Yup, it does. They clearly based that comment on the older rotary engine. If you can push CR to publish an error/apology statement, it'll help the RX-8 in the public's eyes.

Originally posted by Charles Cope
I looked up all the cars in the article for emissions on the EPA site http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/select.htm and the results were...

Mazda RX8 - 8
Chrysler Crossfire - 7
Nissan 350Z - 6
Mishubishi Lancer - 6
Subaru Impreza - 6

Higher score is lower emissions, measured in pounds of pollution per 15,000 miles. Please advise! Does the RX8 deserve an apology for this overstatement?

Charles, excellent find & inquiry back to CR. Please keep us posted of what response you get, if any.

I have subscribed to CR for 17+ years, and do use their testing as a basis for purchases of products. The RX-8 was viewed quite favorably in their review, and will serve to provide more sales for the RX-8 than without the review.

Certainly am glad they approved of my purchase of the RX-8 before I got as chance to hear what they had to say about it.

Reply from CR:

"The comment in the introduction referred to Wankel engines in general and not to the RX-8 in particular. There isn't a single mention of it in the individual RX-8 page. If that's not clear enough, the onus is ours."

I wrote back that it seems that the fact that the RX-8 was the CLEANEST of the group, a correction is in order!

I am a HUGE fan of Consumer Reports, but in this particular case I think their reply is absolutely lame.

I don't think they can really make the claim that they were referring to Wankels in general but not to the RX-8 specifically.

Here is the entire paragraph:
_________________________________

The Mazda RX-8, new for 2004, is a successor to the RX-7 two-seat sports car, which was introduced for 1979 and hasn’t been imported since 1995. It’s essentially a 2+2 coupe (with two front seats and two small rear seats), and it has the added convenience of small rear doors. Like its predecessors, the RX-8 uses a rotary "Wankel" engine, now the only production car to do so. The engine has a pair of three-sided rotors instead of pistons to create compression. It is smaller and lighter than other types of engines and revs exceptionally smoothly. However, it gets lower gas mileage, and its emissions aren’t as clean.
__________________________________


I don't think there is a single reader that would go away thinking they were ONLY referring to Wankel engines on OTHER cars.


Nice catch Charles!


I do think the overall tone of CR's article was very positive though. After all, CR did call out the RX-8 in the Best Of What's New article.

Originally posted by Charles Cope
Reply from CR:

"The comment in the introduction referred to Wankel engines in general and not to the RX-8 in particular. There isn't a single mention of it in the individual RX-8 page. If that's not clear enough, the onus is ours."

I wrote back that it seems that the fact that the RX-8 was the CLEANEST of the group, a correction is in order!

Reply from CR:

"The numbers supplied by the EPA can be somewhat misleading. For instance the 50 state Honda Insight only gets a 6, yet it is a ULEV and gets 51 mpg. We also consider CO2 as a pollutant so by virtue of having the highest fuel consumption in the group, the RX-8 produces the most C02"

Cope's last stand..

I'm not into sword fighting. I think the paragraph in question is misleading. The 2004 RX-8 /new Renesis engine has made considerable improvements over historic pollution numbers. If CR doesn't want to improve the accuracy of their reporting, that's fine.