Town rejects 'Shepard in hell' monument


Casper, Wyo., City Council members on Tuesday night
unanimously rejected a request by the notorious anti-gay Rev. Fred Phelps to install a monument saying Matthew Shepard went to hell because he was gay.

The city refused to succumb to lawsuit threats from the preacher, who claims that God hates homosexuals, after a strong outpouring of community opposition to the monument, which had been deemed "revolting" by one gay rights group.

"Mr. Phelps, you are not welcome," said Councilman Paul Bertoglio. "This city will not allow you to place your monument anywhere in our community."

On Oct. 7, 1998, Shepard, a Casper native, was tied to a fence outside Laramie, Wyo., beaten unconscious with a gun and left to die. He died five days later.

Phelps wants to install in a park a six-foot granite monument that would include a bronze plaque with Shepard's image and the words, "Matthew Shepard entered hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's solemn warning."

Phelps, from Topeka, Kan., gained notoriety in 1998, by carrying signs proclaiming "God Hates Fags" outside Shepard's funeral.

At a City Council meeting earlier this month, city leaders listened to four hours of testimony. All opposed Phelps' monument. And on Tuesday night, about 50 people prayed for the council.

"As I look at Phelps' life, I don't see love as his personal agenda," said Pastor Milo Miller of the Highland Park Community Church. "He disguises his real agenda under the cloak of Christ."

Phelps had said that Casper must allow his Scripture-based monument on city grounds because the town already has allowed a Ten Commandments monument, which was donated to the city in the 1960s by the Fraternal Order of Eagles.

The council now must decide whether to take on a lawsuit, move the Ten Commandments monument to private land or create a special area. The council has taken initial steps to create a designated spot for the Ten Commandments.

The Human Rights Campaign (HRC) and the Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation (GLAAD) also strongly condemned Phelps plans.

"Matthew was killed by men who believed that hating people because they are different is something to be glorified. And what fueled them is the same form of bigotry and intolerance fueling Phelps," said Elizabeth Birch, HRC's executive director.

"Phelps' offensive behavior is just another mean-spirited ploy for attention," said Joan M. Garry, GLAAD's executive director. "Having this coincide with the five-year mark of Matt's death makes it even more offensive."

The Matthew Shepard Foundation, founded by Shepard's parents to promote tolerance and understanding, isn't commenting on Phelps, the monument or the controversy.

"We're taking the high road," spokeswoman Sarah McMullen said. "We're going on with our mission."

Phelps has said that national tragedies, including the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the Columbine High School shootings, are God's punishments for the nation's tolerance of GLBT people. Last week, he told the Rocky Mountain News that Casper was "full of gays and gay enablers" and, therefore, condemned to hell

I think if there was a hell he should be going there, not gays.

Man, what a mess! Sounds like those who are fortunate enough to still be alive there need to go find an altar, get down & stay there until they get it back together.

Mr Shepard was killed for being a homosexual. All chances to redeem his soul were taken from him. There's no way that a person's eternal separation from God should be put on display.

what stupidity
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Let me guess... this is the same bigoted asshole that runs godhatesfags.com?

i dont think people chose to be gay, they just are its who they are.This is who i am.

I really, really don't like bigots most of all.

Vince

Originally posted by eclps0
i dont think people chose to be gay, they just are its who they are.This is who i am.

So you're gay?

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Man, what a mess! Sounds like those who are fortunate enough to still be alive there need to go find an altar, get down & stay there until they get it back together.

Mr Shepard was killed for being a homosexual. All chances to redeem his soul were taken from him. There's no way that a person's eternal separation from God should be put on display.

Wait, are you saying that shepard will not go to "heaven" because of his lifestyle? Tell me i am misreading you here...

Originally posted by Superfan
So you're gay?


yes i am but it dosent mean i dont like cars im not like the sterotype of being gay.

i hope people wont act diffrently towards me. If they do maybe i dont belong on this board then.Even though im gay i still love this car race at racetracks ect so it shoulnt change of what people think of me.Also u know how i posted peopel were after me and my car this is why beacuse of peopel liek phelps .

People who discriminate are ignorant.... i know most here will agree so i don't think you should worry eclps0

I'm totally fine with gay people.... unless u hit on me :p :p

damm





LOL just joking

It was very hard to come out of the closet. I just came out to my parents 3 weeks ago. I feel so much better now

Originally posted by eclps0
damm





LOL just joking

It was very hard to come out of the closet. I just came out to my parents 3 weeks ago. I feel so much better now

and how did they handle it?

u have no idea of how scary it is to come out. I was getting ready for the worst to be disowned, but my parents said they love me ether way im still there son.They told me to be careful because theres alot of close minded people in this world.

cool i'm glad they understood.

Thanks

Yeah I can sorta relate, it sux hiding something so personal from the people you love. I got my girlfried (now happily married) pregnent in HS at 17. I didnt tell ANYONE for about 5-6 months(she had go out of state for college). I was totaly freaked when I broke the news to my parents. But like you they didn't disown me, just said we love you and we're here for you if you need us. man. it was SUCH a relief after keeping it to my self for so long.

Originally posted by eccles
Let me guess... this is the same bigoted asshole that runs godhatesfags.com?

One and the same.

And eclps0, I applaud your courage for coming out in this manner, on this forum. You're not the only gay member of this forum -- I was beginning to think I was the only one! ;)

thanks i thought i was the only one 2.i hate when peopel know that your gay and say u dont act it. Im also sick and tired of teh sterotype.


For anyone that was wondering part of the reason why my eclipse got screwed up was beacuse of people that knew i was gay, Adn hated me for it.




Its also nice to know that im not the only one on this board jtimbck2

I've never really thought highly of homosexuality in general; it kind of makes me uncomfortable. I've had a couple of gay friends for awhile, though, and one of them is possibly the nicest person I've ever met (not to say the other one is a jerk or anything). So I can't imagine how this "reverend" decided he was fit to pass judgment on the souls of fellow human beings he doesn't even know.

Hey eclps0, congrats on having the strength to come out. I can kinda relate to the bigotry on a lesser scale... whenever I take a buddy for a ride in the Miata, folks in other cars just seem to look at me differently - they just seem to assume that two guys in a Miata must be gay.

BTW, d'you think this was part of the problem you had with those kids from another school that were harassing you earlier this year?

I would like to think that everyone is welcome here, and everywhere else for that matter. The minister at our church made an interesting comment. Although different religions look at homosexuality differently, our minister is particularly down on righteous religious people who feel they are perfect and judge everyone else. That guy proposing the monument sounds like one of those. Religion (I feel) entails accepting and caring for all people. Christianity is this way; I imagine Judaism is, also. I'm glad we live in a society where people can be what they are. I'm straight and I'm married. Does that make me superior to anyone? Of course not! I'm proud to share this board with all of you nice people.

Originally posted by eccles
Hey eclps0, congrats on having the strength to come out. I can kinda relate to the bigotry on a lesser scale... whenever I take a buddy for a ride in the Miata, folks in other cars just seem to look at me differently - they just seem to assume that two guys in a Miata must be gay.

BTW, d'you think this was part of the problem you had with those kids from another school that were harassing you earlier this year?

yes this is the main reason why they were after my eclipse and why they were after me and my rx-8.

Originally posted by bobm
I would like to think that everyone is welcome here, and everywhere else for that matter. The minister at our church made an interesting comment. Although different religions look at homosexuality differently, our minister is particularly down on righteous religious people who feel they are perfect and judge everyone else. That guy proposing the monument sounds like one of those. Religion (I feel) entails accepting and caring for all people. Christianity is this way; I imagine Judaism is, also. I'm glad we live in a society where people can be what they are. I'm straight and I'm married. Does that make me superior to anyone? Of course not! I'm proud to share this board with all of you nice people. we need more peopel like You in this world. Phelps is in it for his own agenda not a relgoius reason.

This guy is insane he was marching around saying god hates fags during matthew shepards death.

Thanks, eclpsO. You're right -- People like this Phelps usually do have an agenda, and it doesn't involve acceptance or tolerance. I hope life continues to treat you well.

good thing this forum isnt filled with idiots. that phelps guy is a moron. im glad to be a member of a community that will allow someone to share something incredibly personal and not attack them for it, and that is so clearly accepting that someone actually has the confidence to share such a thing. i applaud you all
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Phelps wants to install in a park a six-foot granite monument that would include a bronze plaque with Shepard's image and the words, "Matthew Shepard entered hell October 12, 1998, at age 21 in defiance of God's solemn warning."


Good Morning, Mr. Phelps.

Your mission, if you decide to accept it, is to go f*** yourself.

It all about personal choice. We can choose to believe what's written in the Bible is true, or not. It can't be re-written to suit personal desires.

Originally posted by highspeed8
It all about personal choice. We can choose to believe what's written in the Bible is true, or not. It can't be re-written to suit personal desires.


The problem with the Bible is that there is no "true" translation of what it said originally. I have a relatively new version that is supposed to be a translation closest to the orginal Hebrew, and it never mentions homosexuality. It talks about male prostitutes. BIG difference.

While I'm not getting into a religious debate, here (http://www.melwhite.org/biblesays.html) is a very interesting take on the whole situation, and kinda reflects my views on the whole issue.

I think "Mr." (I won't diginify this moron with an actual respected title) Phelps is a slimeball.

Originally posted by Elara
The problem with the Bible is that there is no "true" translation of what it said originally. I have a relatively new version that is supposed to be a translation closest to the orginal Hebrew, and it never mentions homosexuality. It talks about male prostitutes. BIG difference.

While I'm not getting into a religious debate, here (http://www.melwhite.org/biblesays.html) is a very interesting take on the whole situation, and kinda reflects my views on the whole issue.

I think "Mr." (I won't diginify this moron with an actual respected title) Phelps is a slimeball.

Thank you for this link, that is the most well thought out and supported argument for tolerance from a christian perspective I have seen. (Since I have a BA in religion and one in philosophy, that is saying something. God knows what I would have done if I did not get into law school.)

It is interesting how often people will selectivly pick what should and should not be taken at "face value" in both the bible and othe US constitution, ignoring the fact that a document or dogma MUST be allowed to evolve with society

Something that lead to the chism and reformation in some ways.

Yup. klegg may not be able to spell, but put a few drinks in me and get me off on the bible, and you have one hell of a party!

Things like this disgust me. Phelps is a closed minded idiot. The reality is he would more likely end up in hell than the man who was murdered. God decides your fate on how you act in life, not your preferences.

I believe that sexuality isn’t something a person controls. Therefore it is predetermined and God wouldn't send someone to hell for this.
I also applaud your bravery, eclps0 and jtimbck2.http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/images/smilies/buttrock.gif

Originally posted by highspeed8
It all about personal choice. We can choose to believe what's written in the Bible is true, or not. It can't be re-written to suit personal desires.

The Bible does say homosexuality is a sin. It also says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Also "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

I do not think it is a sin to be homosexual, but I do believe that homosexual acts are sinful. It is not for me to judge and decide who is going to heaven, and who isn't. All of us have sinned, so does that mean none of us will go to heaven? Of course not. "For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Note that it does NOT say "Whosoever believes in Him and is not gay will have everlasting life."

Lying, cheating, stealing, coveting, jealous, adultery are all sins. So perhaps we should make monuments to liars, cheaters, thieves, covetors and adulterers with a plaque saying they are all burning in Hell. And put Mr. Phelps' picture on each one of them.

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." Note that it does NOT say "Whosoever believes in Him and is not gay will have everlasting life."

right on

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
The Bible does say homosexuality is a sin. It also says "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Also "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."....John, chapter 8. And after the scribes and Pharisees departed, being convicted by their own sins, Jesus (the only one there who could have cast the first stone) finally looked up and asked the adulterer, "Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?" She said, "No man, Lord.", and Jesus said "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."
It's my favorite riddle of life. Jesus did have a sense of humor. :) Yet, He was very serious about that event at the same time. Yet, He showed compassion and love for her, and her accusers. All were corrected in their action not by chaste scornfulness or hateful disownment, but out of love, and the loving desire of Jesus that they change the way - the path - that they were presently on. All walked away the better for it, having learned a great lesson in their own.
What would Jesus have said or done with Mr Shepard? Surely He would not have condemned him. Those who condemned (murdered) Mr. Shepard were not Christ-like. And if you are not of Christ, then you are of Satan. And if you support the work of Satan, such as is Phelps, you are of Satan too. There's no middle ground - either you are all the way in, or you are all the way out.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life." A very key verse, thank you for using it here. I would just like to add one more...Proverbs 3:5-6
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct thy paths."
Something Walter Wink should start doing, in my opinion.
- This is my belief. -

Originally posted by klegg
Thank you for this link, that is the most well thought out and supported argument for tolerance from a christian perspective I have seen. (Since I have a BA in religion and one in philosophy, that is saying something. God knows what I would have done if I did not get into law school.)

It is interesting how often people will selectivly pick what should and should not be taken at "face value" in both the bible and othe US constitution, ignoring the fact that a document or dogma MUST be allowed to evolve with society

Something that lead to the chism and reformation in some ways.

Yup. klegg may not be able to spell, but put a few drinks in me and get me off on the bible, and you have one hell of a party!


Glad you like it- I whip that link out every time I have the chance, because I really think it's a great essay, and a great way to refute many so-called bible thumpers like Mr. Phelps (whom I find disgusting). It's actually part of a book by the same name as that essay, edited and compiled by Mr. Walter Wink. I highly recommend it- I pretty much forced my mother and the wife of the pastor of my mother's church to buy a ton of copies for their church library. The only people I have no tolerance for are those with no tolerance themselves. This very issue is, unfortunately, why I no longer attend church very often.

Racer

"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct thy paths."
Something Walter Wink should start doing, in my opinion.
- This is my belief. -"

I am sorry, but what? You can not have it both ways, my friend.
So again I ask you

"Mr Shepard was killed for being a homosexual. All chances to redeem his soul were taken from him. There's no way that a person's eternal separation from God should be put on display."

Is this really what you think? Tell me you are more enlightened then that....

Originally posted by klegg
Is this really what you think? Tell me you are more enlightened then that....

I think this is what Racer is trying to say but did not express too clearly:

1. "Mr Shepard was killed for being a homosexual." True. I think we all agree on that.
2. "All chances to redeem his soul were taken from him." This is true assuming Mr Shepard was not already a Christian. By killing him, he lost any future chance to reconcile with God.
3. "There's no way that a person's eternal separation from God should be put on display." Can't argue with that. In other words, Phelps should pack sand.

At least I hope this is what Racer is trying to say, else he is very unenlightened.

Originally posted by Elara
The only people I have no tolerance for are those with no tolerance themselves. This very issue is, unfortunately, why I no longer attend church very often.


-I hear you 100% Elara. I have yet to find a church locally that I care to attend. Whenever I visit family in Dallas I love attending Cathedral of Hope. Best open minded church I've ever seen. While one could say it is primarily a 'gay' church, it welcomes all people. It is actually the largest 'gay' church in the world. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

www.cathedralofhope.com

eclps0....

Congrats on taking the first few steps in claiming 'your' life from society 'norms'. I came out when I was bout 16. Hardest thing I ever had to do. You made the right choice though. Be yourself, and if someone is too close-minded to accept you for who you are, then you don't need to know them in the first place. The last 8-9 years I've become a competent, confident, and secure man in who I am. I am out to family, friends, and work. There are days you will be faced w/bigotry, but with luck, patience, and faith, you will survive.

Okay, my sappy good wishes are done....We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum news......

Originally posted by eclps0
yes i am but it dosent mean i dont like cars im not like the sterotype of being gay.

hey man, that's really cool of you to say so. coming out at your age, especially publically, and ESPECIALLY the internet (where retard kids use "ghey" as a derrogatory adjective) is something very commendable.

we're all mature adults here, so i doubt you're going to catch the slightest bit of flack about it, but i'd just like to voice my support. :) good on ya son.

edit: having now finished reading the thread, also kudos to jtimbck2 and IWANTMYRX8. :)

yo i gotta write a 7 page essay on gay marriage. need arguments for both sides. can u guys help me out

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
I think this is what Racer is trying to say but did not express too clearly:

1. "Mr Shepard was killed for being a homosexual." True. I think we all agree on that.
2. "All chances to redeem his soul were taken from him." This is true assuming Mr Shepard was not already a Christian. By killing him, he lost any future chance to reconcile with God.
3. "There's no way that a person's eternal separation from God should be put on display." Can't argue with that. In other words, Phelps should pack sand.

At least I hope this is what Racer is trying to say, else he is very unenlightened. Exactly. Thank you for clarifying my original post. I could not have done better myself.

I'm only sorry to have stated item 2 as a matter of fact, rather than a presumtion, which is what it is. Was he consious at all during those 5 days? That concerns me.

Originally posted by IWANTMYRX8
-I hear you 100% Elara. I have yet to find a church locally that I care to attend. Whenever I visit family in Dallas I love attending Cathedral of Hope. Best open minded church I've ever seen. While one could say it is primarily a 'gay' church, it welcomes all people. It is actually the largest 'gay' church in the world. Pretty impressive if you ask me.

www.cathedralofhope.com
Thanks! Nice link. I wish there was something like that near here. It was pretty disheartening to see the church I grew up in a different light after I discovered their thoughts on homosexuality. It's amazing how a group of people who can be so tolerant in many areas become so intolerant of something that shouldn't be any of their business anyway.

And eclps0- in my experience, the stereotype is complete crap. My husband acts more like the gay stereotype than any gay person I know. So just be what you are, and ignore everyone else. (gosh, that sounds cheesy)

from this thread: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12226

"...So... I'm a liquor-loving gay IT Manager whose hairdresser makes twice as much $ per year he does. Which stereotype is that? ..."

Glad to see/"hear" more voices on the forum. :D

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Exactly. Thank you for clarifying my original post. I could not have done better myself.

I'm only sorry to have stated item 2 as a matter of fact, rather than a presumtion, which is what it is. Was he consious at all during those 5 days? That concerns me.

Thank you for clearing that up..I was getting worried there..

You know, it is an interesting thing, killing in gods name....Although I am not a christian in the traditional sense (I sort of think you can get to heaven, even if you do not acccept christ as your personal savior, If you live a moral life) my reading of the bible, and the koran, and the old testament lead me long ago to swear off killing anything..will not even set a mousetrap(drives my wife nuts) If I did not make it, I should not kill it..

Yet the same people who claim to have accepted christ have no qualms about killing...In the name of a god who tells us clearly to "turn the other cheek"

Sometimes I wish I could accept the concept of hell, in a dante sense. Send them to the 9th plane.

Sorry to keep you in suspense all weekend, there, klegg... My church was sponsoring a seminar which started Friday night - thru all day & night yesterday. :D I don't do any bible-thumping. I just know what I believe and I'm not a scholar, but I'm learning more and more from those that are. My pastor has a PHD, teaches at local colleges, is a bishop, blah, blah, blah... To me, it all makes sense, it all comes together, and so I believe it.
Now, I'm gonna stop talking religion & get back to the RX-8...I'm starting to feel like a bible thumper and I know how that seems to those who are being thumped. I got thumped a lot before I got into my religion. Highly aggravating, and so, I just plant a seed here and there. He will provide the increase at the right time. Oh man, there I go again! Over and out!

I've never belived in the whole "exclusivity" of Christianities heaven. I am a very spiritual person and I encorperate much of Christian philosphy into my life as well as other religions. Yet, when it come to the portions of Christianity that claim that heaven can be reached only by following one single path I have trouble accepting that. I believe each portion of the world was approched by God in ways that each culture would understand and accept. Hence budhism, Hinduism, jeudisam, Christianity, etc all come from the same orgin. In this respect any loving and tolorant person can atain the after life in their own way.

Originally posted by Floyd
In this respect any loving and tolorant person can atain the after life in their own way.

Perhaps, but this basically suggests there is no such thing as morality; it's more like every man for himself. If a zealot truly believes he is serving his god by blowing up an airline full of infidels (i.e, Americans), does this really gain him entry into heaven? After all, what is tolerance? Should we have been tolerant of Nazis doing what they believe protected their society? Of course not, so tolerance is a vague term that has limits and must be interpreted within the context of your beliefs.

I believe there are absolutes, and there is right and wrong which is independent of the ebb and flow of societal norms. In other words, adultery is always adultery; lying is always lying; and putting some kinds of "spin" on it doesn't make it right. What society admires cowardice or treason or cheating one's neighbors? None, meaning there are such things as absolutes that transcend human culture.

Despite my earlier tolerant-sounding post, I believe homosexuality is wrong and will always be wrong despite what society or legislators may do. This does not give me the right to judge or condemn homosexuals. Since I, too, have sinned I am no better or worse than them and and I have no greater claim on salvation. My road to salvation is just the same as theirs. It is between me and God, just it was between Mr. Shepard and God and no one else.

I have to laugh at 8-wannabe's comment about Phelps packing sand. Sort of a fitting punishmnent for his narrow-minded bigotry, huh?

I thik the last comment by Matthew's father sums up how having faith, regardless of what religion, can provide. Matthew's parents already lost their son. They didn't want to see 2 more lives taken, regardless of their loss. They understood that these 2 men will face their maker at their own time, and will have to deal with their actions.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew Shepard

News that 21-year-old University of Wyoming student Matthew Shepard had been found lashed to a fence post, beaten and left to die outside Laramie, Wyoming, captivated and horrified the nation when the story broke October 8, 1998.


Over the following weekend candlelight vigils and spontaneous outpourings of grief and rage spread across the country as details of the young man's ordeal emerged and his condition steadily worsened. Shepard's death five days later turned the tragedy into an intensely emotional political battle.


Lesbian and gay civil rights advocates were quick to jump on Laramie, Wyoming, police for announcing that robbery was the motive for the violence. Organizations like the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, the Human Rights Campaign, and the Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation released statements condemning the murder and, more importantly, the social climate of homophobia that led to it. These condemnations included linking the anti-gay rhetoric of the Christian Right for contributing to a violent anti-gay atmosphere.


Shepard's death in the pre-dawn hours of Monday, October 12, pushed the gay and lesbian community and its leaders into a new round of activism and protest. Thousands joined vigils in cities and towns across the country demanding the immediate passage the Federal Hate Crimes Prevention Act.


The first of two trials in the murder of Matthew Shepard came to a premature end when Russell Henderson copped a guilty plea in an attempt to spare himself the death sentence. Aaron McKinney's trial promised to be a long and unpleasant affair, given the defense's plan to present a gay panic offense.


But Judge Barton Voigt disallowed it, ruling its nearest precendents in Wyoming law (temporary insanity and diminished capacity) were banned by state statute. Denied the chance to present the bulk of their defense, MCKinney's attorneys rested and after little more than 10 hours of deliberation, the jury found Aaron McKinney guilty of felony murder, second-degree murder, kidnapping and robbery.


State prosecutors wanted to pursue the death penalty, but Judy and Dennis Shepard intervened, showing mercy to the person who showed their son none. In a statement to the court, Dennis Shepard said, in part: "You robbed me of something very precious and I will never forgive you for that. Mr. McKinney, I give you life in the memory of one who no longer lives. May you have a long life and may you thank Matthew every day for it."
In a statement to the court, Dennis Shepard said, in part: "You robbed me of something very precious and I will never forgive you for that. Mr. McKinney, I give you life in the memory of one who no longer lives. May you have a long life and may you thank Matthew every day for it."

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Perhaps, but this basically suggests there is no such thing as morality; it's more like every man for himself. If a zealot truly believes he is serving his god by blowing up an airline full of infidels (i.e, Americans), does this really gain him entry into heaven? After all, what is tolerance? Should we have been tolerant of Nazis doing what they believe protected their society? Of course not, so tolerance is a vague term that has limits and must be interpreted within the context of your beliefs.

I believe there are absolutes, and there is right and wrong which is independent of the ebb and flow of societal norms. In other words, adultery is always adultery; lying is always lying; and putting some kinds of "spin" on it doesn't make it right. What society admires cowardice or treason or cheating one's neighbors? None, meaning there are such things as absolutes that transcend human culture.

Despite my earlier tolerant-sounding post, I believe homosexuality is wrong and will always be wrong despite what society or legislators may do. This does not give me the right to judge or condemn homosexuals. Since I, too, have sinned I am no better or worse than them and and I have no greater claim on salvation. My road to salvation is just the same as theirs. It is between me and God, just it was between Mr. Shepard and God and no one else.

Actually, You miss his point, I think.

All of the religions he cited, except the eastern beliefs, are based on the same thing, the same moral basis as embodied in the ten commandments...Even the muslims accept such figures as jesus and moses as of divine nature, although classified as prophets.

Now, the Eastern religions stress spiritual purity , self examination and constant improvement..The basic dogma is very much the same as the judeo/christian beliefs..

So, the basic moral structure is the same for all. I have never been able to find anything in the bible or the koran that would block a jew from the muslim heaven, or vice vers...Allah or Jehovah, they are clearly talking about the same "big guy" and I do not think members of either clergy would disagree...between the big three, the diffrence is accepting christ as your personal savor or not, and not a diffrence in the core moral holdings...

I think that was the point here . A moral member of any of those relegions can find their way home..as oppposed to a so called "moral" satanist, were the belief structure runs against those basic tenents...

Boy this is heavy stuff...I really live for this kind of open and non confrontational discussion..Everyone here has handled a emotionally charged issue with a lot of class and quite rationally..

Remember the Greek bible calls god "logos"" which is the greek word for both "God" and "Thought". For the Greeks, they were one and the same...food for thought.(bad pun, I know)

thank you klegg... I was going to post a reply to 8's response but you did it for me :) I do think that absoluts exist and that any truley self examining person could distance them selves from dogmatic beliefs long enough to truley tell right from wrong. This is infact something that is born deep within us all(belive it or not it is).

I wish more than anything that there was an accurate holy scripture left in this modern world but with all the centuries that Catholosism had to invent the "King James " version of the bible,I can't help but take it as more than a religious press relese. Anything I find in the scriptures that seems to serve ONLY the christian religion I take with a grain of salt as it could have easily been added during the most decadent years of the Catholic curch.(not that 99% of the bible holds valuable life lessons for anyone on this Earth)

I hate to offend others or chalenge beliefs but I think that by listening to others and trying to understand them as if they were ourselves is the only way we can come to appricate every one for who and what they truly are.

btw Klegg I truly appricate your ciation from grek theology on logos.....I couldn't agree more on God and thought being of the same construction. I feel the God is a much more abstract esence then many have an ability to understand.

I also apricate that so many can have a calm and thoughtful discusion on such a mature topic. This truley speaks volumes about the matruity of the audience on this forum

I tried to attach a song that I think has give me my most acurate feeling of what "God" may be. Near the end of the song is one of the mosty insiteful references to what God may be that i have heard in a long time. Unfortunatly i dont think mp3 is a supported file type on the forum so i didnt work. For waht its worth neutural milk hotel said " God is a place where some holy spectiacl lies...when we break we'll wait for our merical...God is a Place where we will wait for the rest of our lives"

Thanks all for listening : )

To Floyd/Klegg -- My previous comment was not intended to be a comparison of world religions. I was reacting to the final sentence in Floyd's post, "any loving and tolorant person can attain the after life in their own way." This is basically an argument that there is no such thing as religion, it is only a state of mind. I will not argue here that Christianity is "right" and all other religions are "wrong" but I do believe that divine grace and intercession is needed for imperfect humans to enter heaven. You can't do it on your own. That being the case, the Deity has a perfect right to make His own "rules" as to how this grace is granted. This is exactly the opposite of Floyd's contention that each of us will do it in our own way. You both missed the essence of what I was trying to say.

I had a very good weekend of what a remeber from it untill this afternoon. First My friends and i that are all gay live in Ft lauderdale. My freinds and I decided to go clubing and get bombed so we drove to tampa on saturday morning and rented a room in a hotel). While we were walking around at mall in tampa there were two guys that kept following us saying (F***ing fagots,ect)Basicaly alot of gay bashing. Well it started getting intresting when i was outside by my self for a quick smoke(helps releve stress) and one of the kids rammed there sholder into my chest and walked away calling me a Fuc*ing fag. After this i happened the two kids got a whole bunch of there friends and kept passing us when we were in a store. waiting for us to come out.(to make a long story Short we called the cops and got them kicked out of the mall and escorted back to there cars.)

I don't understand this apparent need to think that there is a power higher than ourselves that determines what is right and wrong. The monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judiasm and Islam) all sprang from the same well. Passed down orally until it was written, then translated, then assumed to be divinely inspired "truth". Buddhism, Hinduism and other eastern religions teach remarkably the same doctrin in terms of social actions. (Only Islam seems out of step by teaching to "take no Jews or Christians as friends" and it is better to leave the safety of your homes to fight and kill unbelievers, etc.). My point is, personal responsiblity and doing the "right" thing can come without intersession of some deity that will reward or punish us.

Also, there is a big difference between spirituality and religion. More harm has been done in the name of religion than good through out history.

As for Rev. Phelps, he is mentally ill and gets attention due to his religious affiliation (although Robertson and Falwell seem to say the same things). It seems inconsistent for Christianity to preach love and compassion, except for certain people.

I'm not convinced being gay is a "choice". More and more medical research is indicating that the propensity to be gay is genetically programed (www.nytimes.com/2003/10/25/opinion/25KRIS.html?th=-&pagewanted=print&position=).

Why be judgemental? What people do in the privacy of their own homes is no body's business and surely does not justify condemnation. Those that hate gays are ignorant, hypocritical, intolerant and counterproductive. Why can't we all just get along?

I am not religious, nor am I homosexual. I don't understand homosexuality, nor do I want to. That being said, I have no reason to hate anyone for being gay, nor would I ever do anything against someone because they are gay. Everyone in this country should have the right to live their life as they see fit. I don't have to like it, but I can tolerate it.

Originally posted by LesPaul
I don't understand this apparent need to think that there is a power higher than ourselves that determines what is right and wrong.

I've been following this thread, but haven't dared say this. I read in the Economist this morning that 54% of Americans believe that you can only be a moral person if you believe in God (and this should probably be qualified to include only monotheists, i.e., no Hindus or ancient Greeks allowed). Is the argument that you only have incentive to do the right thing if you are afraid of going to hell? Nonsense. I have a very strong sense of morality and ethics and am happy to leave the notion of God to others.

As you say, an inordinant amount of hatred and killing has been perpetrated in the name of God.

eclps0:

Sorry about how your day wound up. I would guess those were teen guys trying to be cool and impress each other by picking on those they viewed as different or weak. I was that age once, but I hope I was never that cruel to anyone. I do look back and regret some mean things I did. Most people as they get older develop some sensitivity and maturity. Others don't, unfortunately. Knowing those guys are way in the wrong doesn't lessen the emotional pain when something like that happens. I do think, however, that society as a whole is more understanding than when I was in high school in the seventies. Funny how you can have dozens of positive events in your day, but the really bad one is the one that'll keep popping into your head. So sorry.

Originally posted by bobm
eclps0:

Sorry about how your day wound up. I would guess those were teen guys trying to be cool and impress each other by picking on those they viewed as different or weak. I was that age once, but I hope I was never that cruel to anyone. I do look back and regret some mean things I did. Most people as they get older develop some sensitivity and maturity. Others don't, unfortunately. Knowing those guys are way in the wrong doesn't lessen the emotional pain when something like that happens. I do think, however, that society as a whole is more understanding than when I was in high school in the seventies. Funny how you can have dozens of positive events in your day, but the really bad one is the one that'll keep popping into your head. So sorry.


Thank you i know theres alot of cruel peopel, im used to gay bashing i just ignore them.Even though there are cruel people in this this world there are more caring and open minded people. Which includes everybody on this board i cant beleve how understanding and polite u guys are to me and about this topic. i really think this was my best post i have ever had.


p.s
Thanks to all of you guys.


:D :D

You go girl ;)

RotaryStalker

"If my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and pray, seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will heal the land."
That's a quote (I hope - written by memory) from the bible, yes, but it's really a rule to live by. The Bible is a guide for how to live here on earth - in this life. (There are no Bibles in heaven, there is no regilion in heaven. You've either gotten there, or not.) That's just one of many that I could have quoted on the matter. You cannot enter the kingdom of God "all puffed-up". You must enter as a child. To God, your righeousness is but a filthy rag. Everyone.

I'm your typical white guy, born & raised in PA, in an upper-middle class neighborhood where there were no black families & my highschool had just about none. My ancestry is German, French, Austrian, Italian, uh, you know - european. So, you might say I'm a thoroughbred white guy. My religious upbringing was in a Luthern church, and I went to sunday school and the regular service, usually singing in a choir. After leaving home and gaining my freedom from parentage, I was right there with y'all. No church. They were nothing but a bunch of biggots who cared only about how much money I was putting in the plate. I could worship God away from church in my own way - in the mountains - wherever, even in my bed. Besides, I was not not real sure if I wanted to believe all that stuff in the Bible. I was really theorizing that it was actually an interplanetary visitation. It all fit quite well.

My second marriage is to a black woman. I have since found out the black culture. My two sons from my first marriage have also. Except for my sister and brother, who live far away, I don't have people from my life previous to my second marriage. They don't care to keep in touch and I have stopped trying.

Her family is now my family (huge!). Her church is now my church. I've never ever gone to a black church. It's a trip! I am now a trustee in a black church. Everyone treats me and my boys in such a loving way. I honestly forget that they are black and I am white, and I truly believe that it works the other way too. Honestly! I hope it doesn't get burned-down.

My wife has accepted her calling into the ministry two years ago after being president of the gospel choir for some 18 years or so and practically a lifetime of going to this church.

Her first sermon was based on the above quote from the Bible. She has since given at least a dozen sermons, in our church, other churches, prisons (man, those guys are for real, and wow, can they sing!), homeless shelters,...

LIfe is good now. Real good. Couldn't be better.

I have come to re-learn the Bible and my religion. I was living in a fake religion, not really knowing much when I thought I knew a whole lot. What I did know was just scratch-the-surface stuff. I see that mentality a lot in the younger people. It's unfortunate but true, but thankfully, there are some that are really getting the word as well. I can see my youth in those younger people who are not getting it. They like me will gain their freedom from parentage, and fade away. It's a known thing though, that, should they survive the world, they will return in due time, like I did. The seed was planted after all.

So, after all that, I'm trying to say one thing, and I think I know what I'm talking about:

You people who call yourselves gay and you other people that hate relgions of God. I know now how society can treat people who don't fit the norm. I know! I know. Come to my church. Worship my God.

edit: I've just spent the last 2 hours writing this & I'm gonna feel like crap tomorrow at work because of it. I've just read it and I'm dismayed about how quickly one can breeze over what it has to say. I've left out tons of thoughts from each paragraph in order to keep it tolerably short. Oh well...

Racer X-8 wrote: "If my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and pray, seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will heal the land."
That's a quote (I hope - written by memory) from the bible, yes, but it's really a rule to live by. The Bible is a guide for how to live here on earth - in this life. (There are no Bibles in heaven, there is no regilion in heaven. You've either gotten there, or not.) That's just one of many that I could have quoted on the matter. You cannot enter the kingdom of God "all puffed-up". You must enter as a child. To God, your righeousness is but a filthy rag. Everyone."

I respect your right to believe that, but once you've tasted the apple of knowledge (history of regligions, world religions) you may understand why I believe your statement is pure fiction. Following a religion is just like being superstitious: you believe because you want to or are afraid not to, not because of any proof or logical thought process.

"Come to my church. Worship my God." I'm sure your invitation is based in kindness and hospitality, but I can find no valid reason to worship anything. Especially a god that permits children to starve the world over, allows horrible sickness on innocents, or otherwise sits and watches misery, suffering and pain go unrepaired. If there is a god he is mean or impotent.

8_wannabe wrote: I do believe that divine grace and intercession is needed for imperfect humans to enter heaven. You can't do it on your own. That being the case, the Deity has a perfect right to make His own "rules" as to how this grace is granted. This is exactly the opposite of Floyd's contention that each of us will do it in our own way. You both missed the essence of what I was trying to say.

this was not exactly what I was getting at. I was simply trying to point out that one must not nessicarily devote his/herself to a particullar religion to gain entrance into heaven as long as he/she is devoted to God him self.

Even someone who has never know ANY holy scripture but realizes/revels in the devine order which construces the world around us has as good of a chance at meeting their creator as anyone else.

Hayseed wrote: I've been following this thread, but haven't dared say this. I read in the Economist this morning that 54% of Americans believe that you can only be a moral person if you believe in God (and this should probably be qualified to include only monotheists, i.e., no Hindus or ancient Greeks allowed). Is the argument that you only have incentive to do the right thing if you are afraid of going to hell? Nonsense. I have a very strong sense of morality and ethics and am happy to leave the notion of God to others.

I completly agree that a person who does not nessicarily believe in God can be a very moral person and find it sad that so many do not think it possible. However, no matter how moral a person may live their life I can not believe that they will reach a higher plane of existance upon their death. For this to take place one must recognize the existance of God's realm or their is no way for him to bring you home. Kind of a you have to believe for it to exist kind of thing.

Racer X-8 wrote: "If my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and pray, seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will heal the land."
That's a quote (I hope - written by memory) from the bible, yes, but it's really a rule to live by. The Bible is a guide for how to live here on earth - in this life. (There are no Bibles in heaven, there is no regilion in heaven. You've either gotten there, or not.) That's just one of many that I could have quoted on the matter. You cannot enter the kingdom of God "all puffed-up". You must enter as a child. To God, your righeousness is but a filthy rag. Everyone.

I agree that this quote is a very good guide but it in no way says that one must belong to a congregation or such to be a part of this. I consider to be "called" (spiritualy)by the name of God but I am not nessicarily a "Christ"ian. Any single line of text has seveal ways to read it, this is why it is hard to think that all of these 2000+ year old texts even closely resemble their origional texts. But I agree completely that one can not be "all puffed up" or arogant in their beliefs. Humility is on of the moust under-rated personality traits. In the end we all know nothing and only by being open to all ways and ideas can we hope to learn enough to follow God in such a way that he will reward us. Only then will any of us learn how little we truly know.

"...they will reach a higher plane of existance upon their death. For this to take place one must recognize the existance of God's realm or their is no way for him to bring you home"

Buddha would disagree and wrote 600 years before the birth of Christ that one can be "awakened" without supreme help.

As much as I want to believe, there is no proof of anything happening after death. Perhaps it is better to take personal responsibility for one's life, do good and make the best of this life, because that's all there is. Wishful thinking or blindly following dogma may waste your life.

I find it ironic that intelligent people would put more thought and skepticism into selecting a car, or an option on a car, than they would when it comes to accepting fables from an ancient text written in the middle-east thousands of years ago. Why not apply that same scrutiny to these myths, stories and legends?

Originally posted by eclps0
yes i am but it dosent mean i dont like cars im not like the sterotype of being gay.

Hey hey hey.. Slow down there killer.. I'm not gay but one of my very good friends is.. Race, religion, sexual pref, none of that matters. It's wether yor're a good person or not.

What can I say, except...Wow!! I agree with most that have applauded how we can all have our own opinions and voice them at the same time on this forum, without fear of attack. There have been many interesting views/religious (or lack there of) beliefs and comments made. Personally, I am thankful that we all appear to have the grace and dignity not to condemn anyone else here for their sexual orientation, religioius beliefs, backgrounds, etc. I am assuming those that do have an issue with this are keeping away from the thread..lol.

I wanted to make a comment in refernce to Racer-X8's post. Perhaps I am misreading his post. I agree his intentions are good and heartfelt. But I want to make something clear, at least in my case. As previously stated, I am a gay male. This does not mean that I hate religions of God. I was raised Christian/Presbyterian. I attended regularly until I was around 14 or so. This is the time that I realized who I really was inside. It also happened to be the time that I became quite rebelious. I didn't believe that a 'God" would exist and make man in his own image, yet then tell me that I am a sinner for who I love. This feeling of betrayal/disbelief increased after my grandfather passed of a very painful cancer. I could not understand how a God could exist and let horrific things happen in the world. Thus, I considered myself completely atheist for several years.

Recently, within the past few years, I have begun to question things in the world. While I am a stern believer in science, I question many things in the world. I went back to my roots of the presbyterian church as when I grew up. I was faced with the same condemnations as before. That was until I found the Cathedral of Hope. (As mentioned in my previous thread). I try to get up to Dallas as often as I can, which I am sure is still not enough. I have not "accepted Christ as my personal Savior" as of yet. But I do believe there is "something" out there. If that something is Christ, I do not know yet. Is it Buddha? I do not know yet. Is it one of the numberous other religious "icons" out there? I do not know. But I know that I am searching for it. I can only hope I will find the answer. Wether it be in a dy, a month, a year, or 10 years. I will find it.

My long, drawn-out point is this. Regardless of your beliefs, I feel that if you are honest with yourself and those around you, you have done well in life. Regadless of wether or not you have a religious belief, or which belief you follow if you do follow one.

BTW---Maybe we should open up a new catagory in the forum...

Things that have absolutely nothing to do w/the 8 and stir up controversy, yet can still be discussed like adults....

lol
:cool:

Originally posted by IWANTMYRX8
BTW---Maybe we should open up a new catagory in the forum...

Things that have absolutely nothing to do w/the 8 and stir up controversy, yet can still be discussed like adults....

lol
:cool:

That's called the Lounge, and you're in it, ;) :D

I agree that this has been a remarkably well behaved thread that started expressing support for a young person expressing himself and became a healthy discussion of religion. It's been said that one should avoid topics of religion and politics yet those may be some of the most important subject to discuss in an open and nonjudgemental way.

In many other countries, we could not have this discussion. We are exercising our freedom. That's why it is so important to keep religion separate from state. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, but when you force your religious views on other through law, that is injustice (Taliban, Euthinasia, abortion choice, are a few examples).

Originally posted by LesPaul
"...they will reach a higher plane of existance upon their death. For this to take place one must recognize the existance of God's realm or their is no way for him to bring you home"

Buddha would disagree and wrote 600 years before the birth of Christ that one can be "awakened" without supreme help.

As much as I want to believe, there is no proof of anything happening after death. Perhaps it is better to take personal responsibility for one's life, do good and make the best of this life, because that's all there is. Wishful thinking or blindly following dogma may waste your life.

I find it ironic that intelligent people would put more thought and skepticism into selecting a car, or an option on a car, than they would when it comes to accepting fables from an ancient text written in the middle-east thousands of years ago. Why not apply that same scrutiny to these myths, stories and legends?

Poet, attorney, car enthusiast, theologian, philosopher, musician.....I love this man! (In a platonic way):D

By the way, to add one of my posts before, there are also other greek words for god, Theos, and logo can also be used for the word "word".

You know, the childrens crusade should put to rest any notion of a god who tracks what is going on here...to quote al pacino, "he is an absentee landlord"

Also, I would urge everyone to read ellen pagels
'gnostic gospels" Which outlines the archeological finds at the town of nag-hamade, including an early version of the bible with gospels from mary and thomas.

The exclusion now is most signiificant, as you will see...

Originally posted by LesPaul
[BAs much as I want to believe, there is no proof of anything happening after death. Perhaps it is better to take personal responsibility for one's life, do good and make the best of this life, because that's all there is. Wishful thinking or blindly following dogma may waste your life.
[/B]

you're right there is no proof of anything happening after death other than religious beliefs but the good news is that there is no proof that nothing happens after death either.

I have always been a believer of the laws of physics. The law of conservation of energy sates that energy can neither be created or destroyed.

So, if a person believes that they are driven by an internal energy source (called by many a soul) something has got to happen to that energy once its vehicle expires...right?

This is definitely an interesting thread.
eclpsO, I wanted to take the time to tell you I love you.When was the last time a straight dude told you that:especially one who doesn't know you? If you were here I'd give you a hug brother.
If the ignorant dude that is stirring up all this mess were truly in Christ , he'd probably have a different attitude toward you and to others who think like you.
My deal is this: I live for Christ because he died for me. He's totally real dude. I encourage you to check out the book 'More than a carpenter' amongst other interesting literature on the topic.
One other thing young man (I'm not that old myself-just turned 34) take your time with any kind of sexuallity.Seek wisdom in life, and healthy fun: you're old enough to make some educated choices in these areas.
Don't mean to sound preachy. Peace,Paul.

How many times did I just use the word dude?

Originally posted by LesPaul
"...they will reach a higher plane of existance upon their death. For this to take place one must recognize the existance of God's realm or their is no way for him to bring you home"

Buddha would disagree and wrote 600 years before the birth of Christ that one can be "awakened" without supreme help.
... Why wait until you die to reach a higher plane of existence? Once you have truly accepted Jesus, you are a new person, with an eternal life. David called the passing from this life to the next "the shadow of death". He knew that his spirit was immortal, and that the passing over from this life to the next was but a shadow, not really death.
Buddha might disagree, but he is dead, one of those myths, stories and legends. He was a false god, an idol. My God is alive and well and living within me, without me and everywhere, now, from the beginning of time to the end of time. It's a matter of fact. "If my people who are called by My name shall humble themselves and pray, seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will heal the land." Try it for real. If you are for real about it, He will let you know for real that He is for real about it. But, don't just take my word for it, please!

Just as God and the holy trinity is for real, the evil one, the persecutor, the antichrist does also exist, and he is busy. I acnowledge that you have noted some of his works. he has been busy with you too, I'm afraid. Doh! he's been busy with all of us! You only know it though when you aren't going in his direction. Like two cars, if going in the same direction, they hardly ever meet-up, if heading in opposite directions, (!!!) If he knows he has you, he'll leave you alone.
I like the way you take world situations and place it in the lap of God, for Him to answer to. God works and doesn't work thru his people. It's a pretty bad time that we are in now. Not too many of His people believe in Him. So things like charity and love don't get top billing over greed and and uncaring and hate.

Really, though, world religion? I've been asked tougher questions by my sons. You try to insult me and render my religion a fallacy by telling me that I'm "unenlightened", that I need to catch up on all the junk that you've been feeding on. Jesus will let you just keep on keeping on the path that you are on. He gives you all the slack you want. You go, boy. Keep on looking, but don't call me the fool. Some people find out the hard way, some people don't find out at all. It's a very narrow path, and you're not on it. And you are not the only one here, not by a long shot. You definitely have lots of company. This is not hatred, this is my defense of my God, the only real, true and living God. And it's a warning call to you. Get real before it's too late. If you die like this, you will truly be dead. For people like you, I hope for the days of tribulation to come before you die. At least then you might be convinced and believe before you die. I dunno. I guess some people gotta go to hell, be cast into the lake of fire. That's for real too. You lemme know what I'm missing after you get there, y'heah!

Racer X-8 I never called you a fool or tried to imply that you are. But you are too dismissive of knowledge. The "junk" I'm feeding on is as legitimate as your new testament. How can you dismiss the wisdom of half the world? Buddha never claimed to be a god. He is not an idol yet you dismiss him without knowing his message. Confucius is followed by millions. How arrogant you are to call all that junk without knowing anything about it.

I understand you don't want to be challenged. I wish there was a book with all the answers delivered to me by god. I wouldn't need to take personal responsibililty and think for myself. It absolves me of my responsibilities. Unfortunately, there is no such book.

You say "It's a matter of fact." I'm sorry to say that it is definitely not. It is a matter of personal choice to believe (there is no proof or even logic to the "died for our sins" routine. The cannibalistic rituals of wine and bread have their roots in pagan god-eating. There's nothing new here.)

Please understand, I am not being judgemental and I wish you happiness and peace, but your beliefs are not fact. You cannot prove any of it. You believe because of your faith. You should avoid arrogance in believing that yours is the only truth.

I'm not worried about hell or a lake of fire or other myths and fictions used to keep the masses in line by the clergy. There is no proof that we are anything but biological life forms that die and rot. We need to do the best we can to be good and kind and helpful in this world: the one we know about (unless you are into string-theory).

I was raised Roman Catholic and studied all the "junk" I could get my hands on and came to my conclusions based upon reason and fact and comparisons. Since I bit from the apple of knowledge I have been cast out of the safe, happy world of faith. I have no regrets.

i cant believe the response this tread is having. Now for religion, i don't believe in god at all. Why u ask because alot has happened to me in my life that are very personal. Now just because i don't beleve in god I'm not a bad person. I am still spiritual, but not religious. I believe in fate but i also believe that i have the power to change my fate it all comes down to choices my choice is to not believe in god. Now that i made my choices i will walk down that road and face my fate its is who i am and what i want.

Originally posted by LesPaul
I'm not worried about hell or a lake of fire or other myths and fictions used to keep the masses in line by the clergy. There is no proof that we are anything but biological life forms that die and rot. We need to do the best we can to be good and kind and helpful in this world: the one we know about (unless you are into string-theory).

we may just die and rot but there is no proof we dont live on either. thats where faith comes in. thats why the after life is a mystery. you're too hung up on logic and proof. you'll never find the answers that way. you're an aetheist. it's the choice you made. we all pretty much have to make a choice about the existence of God.

klegg wrote: "Also, I would urge everyone to read ellen pagels
'gnostic gospels" Which outlines the archeological finds at the town of nag-hamade, including an early version of the bible with gospels from mary and thomas.

The exclusion now is most signiificant, as you will see..."


klegg, care to elaborate? You have my curiousity peaked.

Kleg will probably reply that the dead sea scrolls and other documents seem to indicate that there are many gospels that were excluded from inclusion in the new testament by the early church. Why some gospels were included as divinely inspired and others burried is open to debate. The gospel according to Mary indicates that she was the thirteenth disciple but was marginalized and slandered by a male-dominated church that was usurping the pagan women-dominated religions that came before christianity. Dan Brown's books, the DeVinci Code and Angels and Demons speculate on this information.

RX-GR8 wrote: "you're too hung up on logic and proof". I agree. That's my point. People believe things because of "faith" and I have no objections to that. But "faith" alone is not enough to prove anything or to make it fact. Someones faith is their own personal business but it should not be imposed on others through laws or social pressure. Believe what you want but don't force it on me.

The church held as "truth" the idea that the universe revolves around the earth. Faith teaches that it is fact. We know otherwise so this is but one example of how faith leads people astray. It wasn't until 1984 that the Holy See officially acknowledged that the earth revolves around the sun. If they can be wrong about such a "fact", it is difficult to accept the other "facts" that their faith leads them to believe.

Originally posted by LesPaul
Racer X-8 I never called you a fool or tried to imply that you are... How arrogant you are to call all that junk without knowing anything about it... You've been trying to tell me more than once that I don't know anything about other ideologies, and that I'm arrogant, but not a fool.
What am I supposed to say? Thank you for not calling me a fool? Go ahead, you've just been beating around the bush.

I've been around for a while, long enough to know what to believe and what not to believe. I've just gone back to the same religion that my parents brought me up in. That doesn't mean that I haven't checked into others, and the possibility of none at all.

I wish you well too. If I didn't, I wouldn't have been concerned about you. I don't like the thought of my fellow forum member buddies going to hell. Man, that sounds terrible. Ha! I guess that's because it is.

Religion, i don't believe in god at all. Why u ask because alot has happened to me in my life that are very personal. Now just because i don't beleve in god I'm not a bad person. I am still spiritual, but not religious. I believe in fate but i also believe that i have the power to change my fate it all comes down to choices my choice is to not believe in god. Now that i made my choices i will walk down that road and face my fate its is who i am and what i want.

Originally posted by LesPaul
Kleg will probably reply that the dead sea scrolls and other documents seem to indicate that there are many gospels that were excluded from inclusion in the new testament by the early church. Why some gospels were included as divinely inspired and others burried is open to debate. The gospel according to Mary indicates that she was the thirteenth disciple but was marginalized and slandered by a male-dominated church that was usurping the pagan women-dominated religions that came before christianity. Dan Brown's books, the DeVinci Code and Angels and Demons speculate on this information.

RX-GR8 wrote: "you're too hung up on logic and proof". I agree. That's my point. People believe things because of "faith" and I have no objections to that. But "faith" alone is not enough to prove anything or to make it fact. Someones faith is their own personal business but it should not be imposed on others through laws or social pressure. Believe what you want but don't force it on me.

The church held as "truth" the idea that the universe revolves around the earth. Faith teaches that it is fact. We know otherwise so this is but one example of how faith leads people astray. It wasn't until 1984 that the Holy See officially acknowledged that the earth revolves around the sun. If they can be wrong about such a "fact", it is difficult to accept the other "facts" that their faith leads them to believe.

You are exactly right. Sorry I was not here to jump in, but really, you say it better than I could anyway.

I am typing fast at work, so my spelling will be worse then the norm. Sorry.

Now racer x-8, please calm down. Les is known for not taking personal attacks, and he is not doing so now. He is simply detailing his point of view, as we all have been doing.

Your way works for you, his for him (wow thats bad grammer!)

Religion and politics always stir up strong emotions....so lets stay calm and keep our heads.....that is what christ would do, anyway. Also, remember you are to love the "sinner" which does not envolve a "lake of fire" threat.

Les is absolutely right that the bible has been selectivly edited for thousands of years, and we have no way of knowing what the original word was.

we also know that the roman chatholic church has added little perks as the years have gone..

Indulgences, transmutation theory to name two.

lets also remeber that the papel bedroom at the vatican still has erotic wood carvings, from a time when the pope was not concerned about celebacy.

now, this is not ment as a bash on any one relegion, hell, my father is roman catholic (my mother is a jew, we celebrated both relegions, it is a loooong story) they all have fun things like this in the past, the point is , man has currupted the word to the point that the original message is obfuscated (this, I spell right)

Now, just hear me out about that lake of fire thing.

Why punsih someone?
1) to show the error of their ways, like rubbing a pups nose in an accident.

2) to set an example for others, as a deterrent.

3) to protect soceity. (death penalty)

Now, once your in hell, you can not get out, So 1 is gone.

we can not visit hell, or put "hades TV" on cable, and last I checked, satan does not have a "scared straight" program, so 2 is out.

3 is not relevent, cuse you only get there if you are dead.

So why would a all loving, all merciful god send people to a painful hell?

Could we really picture christ, who told us to "turn the other cheek" who loved all men, even sinners, even prostitutes, sending anyone there?

how about everyone who lived B.C. are they there?

How about the unbaptised baby? Can we relly accept that the most inn9ocent of people could be sent there? remember, saint augastine said "the road to hell is lined with the skulls of unbaptised babys" Do we really think this? Do you want to tell a mother who just lost a baby this?

If it is true, do you really want to worship that type of god?

Is seems that the very essence of divinity must be diffrent then what you think. God can not be perfect, and be sadistic or cruel.

Really, this whole fire a nd brimestone thing really got in to church docterine from good old dante. The inferno is a violent hell, ment to scare a violent people. certainly the concept of hell, and evil has evolved as man has. compare the inferno to victorian england. What scared them was "jekell and hyde"(I know, spelling) how the proper, logical doctor could turn into an emotionl sex beast. Or dracula, which is really about oral sex, if you think about it. victorians were sexualy repressed remember.

50 years later, the corruption of children was the fear (lord of the flies) I could go on for hours, but the point is made. Things change, depending who you are talking to.

perhaps gods nature is something else. perhaps we are more than gods children, perhaps we are all a small part of divinity. the pre chiristian Greeks called this the "spermatic theory of nlogos" All of us collectivly make up and enpower god, just like the human body is made up of diffrent organs which together form a whole.

Perhaps what sets us apart from other living things, besides a opposable thumb, is the ability pick between right and wrong.

Or, as neitsche said, perhaps man created god to blame their misfortunes on. If life was random, would it not be unbearable?

Frankly racer, you should look at ceramicseals posts. Again I am not trying to mock you or what you believe. I do not pretend to know the right answer for everyone, nor do I think there is only one "right way" to think. I just think ceramicseal clearly gets what christ was telling us. You could do worse then to follow his example. Just something to think about.

Originally posted by klegg
Or, as neitsche said, perhaps man created god to blame their misfortunes on. If life was random, would it not be unbearable?


neitsche also said all men are fools.

Yes he did. Perhaps one of the most brilliant men of the last 200 years. Well, before he went nuts!

My favorite "that which does not kill me makes me stronger"

Well, I hope you are aware that your questions that you pose are all answered. The answers are all logical and you already have heard them. You have already decided to discard them as fabricated visions from sources that are less than reputable, concieved for reasons other than devine, not inspired by anyone more worthy than a pope, not by God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

I can't disprove that which you have already proven otherwise for yourself. Why go on with this?

I'll see you guys elsewhere in the forum. No hard feelings.

Umm Was He Gay?

Your Link:

http://mindprod.com/ggloss/wasjesusgay.html

Makes you wonder doesn't it ....?

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Well, I hope you are aware that your questions that you pose are all answered. The answers are all logical and you already have heard them. You have already decided to discard them as fabricated visions from sources that are less than reputable, concieved for reasons other than devine, not inspired by anyone more worthy than a pope, not by God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

I can't disprove that which you have already proven otherwise for yourself. Why go on with this?

I'll see you guys elsewhere in the forum. No hard feelings.

Its fine for you to believe in a given set of predictions of what our destinies are, but its heresay to the nth degree to try to intimidate everyone through the threat of eternal suffering to have your same beliefs. Have you ever personally communicated and were answered clearly by God?? So why would this "loving God" punish one so severely for not having the skill to decipher one heresay (christian, muslim, etc.) from another?

To say (with a smile often) that "you are going to hell" because you think diferently than me is a symbol of arrogance and is quite condesending to say the least.

Personally, I suspect something, God or even some other force, created everything (via the laws of science and nature), but I don't claim to be so arrogant to somehow believe that a fictional explanation (at a minimum based off of heresay) is going to satisfy my demands for a coherent answer to such an important question.

Well, I guess this has run its course. I've enjoyed it. It is easy to have these kinds of conversations with like-minded people but it can get dicey when we disagree. Racer X-8, no hard feelings, I hope.

I'll leave you with some "junk":

"Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn't learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn't learn a little, at least we didn't get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn't die; so, let us all be thankful" Buddha

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one getting burned." Buddha

"Words have the power to both destroy and heal. When words are both true and kind, they can change our world. "Buddha

"Ignorance is the night of the mind, but a night without moon and star." Confusius

"Study the past if you would define the future." Confusius

"Humility is the jewel of Knowledge" Vidya Hindu

" Truth always triumphs; untruth is never vanquished" Upanishad Hindu

"Be kind to those who are helpless and suffering" Bhavtihavi Hindu

"Some men are heterosexual, some men are homosexual, and some men don't think of sex at all. They become lawyers." Woody Allen

Originally posted by LesPaul

"Some men are heterosexual, some men are homosexual, and some men don't think of sex at all. They become lawyers." Woody Allen

ROFLMAO

Thought you might get a kick out of that one, Klegg.

Originally posted by LesPaul
Some men are heterosexual, some men are homosexual, and some men don't think of sex at all. They become lawyers." Woody Allen

Some men marry their teenage, adopted daughters living in their house. :)

Lespaul wrote: Buddha would disagree and wrote 600 years before the birth of Christ that one can be "awakened" without supreme help.

Actualy i feel that buddah would agree that to be part of the spirtual you must first acknowledge its existence. This is what I was trying to say

Originally posted by LesPaul
I understand you don't want to be challenged. I wish there was a book with all the answers delivered to me by god. I wouldn't need to take personal responsibililty and think for myself. It absolves me of my responsibilities. Unfortunately, there is no such book.... Luke 2
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.

I wonder if there were any lawyers there too? I guess not.

Originally posted by LesPaul
You say "It's a matter of fact." I'm sorry to say that it is definitely not. It is a matter of personal choice to believe (there is no proof or even logic to the "died for our sins" routine. The cannibalistic rituals of wine and bread have their roots in pagan god-eating. There's nothing new here.)...

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

I'm totally astounded that you have not found the proof or logic to the "died for our sins" routine. The prophets talked about His coming all through the old testament, then it's all over the place in the new testament...here's one of a zillion for you to chew on...

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

You know the definition of "mediator", don't you?

And where did you pick up that junk about the last supper? OMG!!!

Originally posted by revhappy
Some men marry their teenage, adopted daughters living in their house. :)

funny woody's best movie Manhattan was about him dating this 17 year old girl and then telling her to find someone her own age then later trying to reconcile with her and she blows him off. i guess maybe some how he had to change the ending in real life.

Originally posted by LesPaul
Please understand, I am not being judgemental and I wish you happiness and peace, but your beliefs are not fact. You cannot prove any of it. You believe because of your faith. You should avoid arrogance in believing that yours is the only truth.
....

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(Whole Chapter: John 14 In context: John 14:5-7)

You know what He meant there, don't you? Aint but one way to get to heaven - thru J.C. If you don't accept J.C., you don't get to heaven. He's the way. He's the truth. He's the life (eternal, you know - in heaven). Life here on earth as we know it is but a blink of an eye, compared to an eternity in heaven - or hell. Choose you this day whom ye will serve.

Am I being arrogant? Am I believing that mine is the only truth? Dern straight!

i was at a funeral once and the priest giving the eulogy said "heaven is not a destination its a relationship" so when people say "eternity in heaven" do they mean a state of mind or physically(soul or whatever manifistation of embodiment) you're actually in a "place" called heaven?

Originally posted by LesPaul
I'm not worried about hell or a lake of fire or other myths and fictions used to keep the masses in line by the clergy. There is no proof that we are anything but biological life forms that die and rot. We need to do the best we can to be good and kind and helpful in this world: the one we know about (unless you are into string-theory).

I was raised Roman Catholic and studied all the "junk" I could get my hands on and came to my conclusions based upon reason and fact and comparisons. Since I bit from the apple of knowledge I have been cast out of the safe, happy world of faith. I have no regrets.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
(Whole Chapter: Revelation 21 In context: Revelation 21:7-9)

Homosexuals, read ye this...(hey, I'm getting good at this!)
Leviticus 18:22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
(Whole Chapter: Leviticus 18 In context: Leviticus 18:21-23)

(I don't know of anywhere in the Bible that says there's an option of just rotting away in your grave for eternity. Sorry.)

I guess a quote from my pastor won't blow your skirts up too high (for the best, perhaps), but here it is...
"Being good may keep you out of jail, but being good won't keep you out of hell. You must accept J.C. to be born again" Now, if you're like I was, the term "born again" surely did rub me the wrong way. Then I found out what that means...

John 3
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So, that's being "born again". The term doesn't bother me now that I know where it came from.

I suppose it was the southern baptists that added those verses to the bible though...oh well.

Originally posted by RX-GR8
i was at a funeral once and the priest giving the eulogy said "heaven is not a destination its a relationship" so when people say "eternity in heaven" do they mean a state of mind or physically(soul or whatever manifistation of embodiment) you're actually in a "place" called heaven?
Luke 16
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Good question. I've recalled this here though. You can see that the rich man in verse 23 could recognize Abraham and Lazarus, after all three had already died. (Abraham's bosom was one compartment in hell, which was like the best place to be, since Jesus wasn't crucified yet and the gates of heaven were not opened yet. When J.C. was crucified, he went to hell to free Abraham's bosom & also to tell other people in hell "the good news", since they knew Him not. He gave everyone throughout "hell" a chance to repent and to receive eternal life. "Death hath no victory, where is thy sting!" Then He appeared in the garden to Mary. He was one busy guy, having just been crucified and all. He had His agenda though.) Whoa! Somebody stop me!

OK, so something else here, when you go to New Jeruselem (Revelations, chapter 21 - just went over that tonight in bible study - how timely!), you're supposed to recieve "A new body", which is gonna last for eternity, not of flesh & blood. This will be your new body to house your spirit, which is the same spirit that you now posses.

If you want to read one cool book of the bible, I would highly recommend Revelations. It's the last book and it talks about John's vision of the future as revealed by Jesus himself, while John was imprisoned on the isle of Patmus, some 65 years after the crucifiction. It hasn't happened yet to this day. We wouldn't be here if it did. It reads like a sci-fi story, except it's for real!!! Well, for some of us it is.

edit: Hmmm. I just re-read your post & missed that relationship thing. I think he meant that God is the father and by you accepting His Son, J.C., you receive an inheritance to the kingdom of God. That's why we are "brothers" and "sisters" in Christ. Christ becomes our brother in a way of speaking. However, J.C., being on the same level as God, being one of the Holy Trinity, you know, it's hard for me to call Him my brother! Let's se here now...

Matthew 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
(Whole Chapter: Matthew 25 In context: Matthew 25:33-35)

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 6 In context: 1 Corinthians 6:8-10)

1 Corinthians 6:10
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 6 In context: 1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
(Whole Chapter: 1 Corinthians 15 In context: 1 Corinthians 15:49-51)

Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
(Whole Chapter: Galatians 5 In context: Galatians 5:20-22)

Ephesians 5:5
For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
(Whole Chapter: Ephesians 5 In context: Ephesians 5:4-6)

You know those people who seem to think that if they speak up more often and talk louder, more people will agree with their opinions?

But wait -- he's quoting a bunch of random passages from the (gasp!) King James Version of the bible. Well that changes everything -- I believe! I believe!!

Racer RX-8, let me tell you a bit about myself. I grew up in a Southern Baptist home, literally -- my father is a retired Southern Baptist preacher. I grew up going to Sunday school, morning services, and evening services every Sunday and prayer meeting every Wednesday. I believed everything you believe about God, heaven, and hell. I "accepted Jesus as my personal savior" at a young age.

I grew up in a very loving home, but I was sheltered & naive. I didn't know what "gay" or "faggot" meant (though I did know it was about the most mean and derogatory insult junior high kids hurled at one another, especially at me).

Then in my freshman year of college, I found out what it meant -- I realized that I was one of those abhorred, hated, sinners, and was damned to hell for it. But how could this be? I was a born-again, baptised, Christian. I was a preacher's son. But based on everything the Southern Baptist faith and others like it teach, I was an "abomination".

I tried to reconcile all of that for another couple of years; but my heart wasn't in it. I simply couldn't continue in the faith that despised me and condemned me because of WHO I AM.

Racer RX-8, I'm not attacking your faith or your beliefs -- not yours, or anyone else's. It's clear that you strongly believe what you believe. But you're declaring your beliefs as fact and quoting passages from a 17th century translation of 2,000 year old writings as proof. And you're expecting everyone within earshot to accept those "facts" and "proofs".

Maybe it's time to let this discussion rest. I'm sure we all have other things to talk about, and nobody ever wins an argument about religion or politics.

"Sorry if I got all over your toes. I was aiming at your heart."

Another one of my pastor's favorites...

Maybe your heart will be back into it some day in the future. You know how it works, so I won't bore you with those good old one-liners.

I have a VERY close family member who has not been heterosexual since I've known her. I love her, always have and she's really one of my favorite family members. She knows that, and she also knows my opinions concerning her sexual preference. A lot of the family has let her know in the same way. And we all love her and care for her every needs. And we pray for her, not like a bunch of zealots or anything, but she is in our prayers. We also pray for our own understanding. I hope you one day return to church & reconcile. All those people are simply going thru a process of trying to understand, yet standing on their beliefs at the same time. A person can't discard a portion of the word willy-nilly just out of convenience. You know that.

Now, about this 17th century translation...blah...blah...blah...
Who wrote Genesis, and when was he born?

The bible, as I'm sure you are aware, was written by devine inspiration - from the first edition to the last. There are a lot of different translations popping up all over lately, but that's just in keeping with changes in the current languages. There are/have been too many people around to let some bad translation or inappropriate addendums get the Bible all off its original context.

Now, I'll leave you with some words of wisdom:

"He who rides on dolphin, does so on porpoise." Confusius

:)

Racer, you are just quoting one source and claiming that that proves your argument. You believe those words are divinely inspired truth. I think they are interesting texts written by wise men, like the writings of other great thinkers.

Since you note that you have studied other religions and the history of human thought, you will know the providence of the bible (oral traditions, written, translated, edited). Not the word of god. Just stories from the middle east at a distant time from a distant and different culture. If you want to use it to guide your life, fine. But if you really think about it, study it, challenge the dogma of the clergy, it all falls apart.

You say: "A person can't discard a portion of the word willy-nilly just out of convenience. You know that." Yet that is what you do when you dismiss the other world religions that are followed by millions of people, or scientific writers and thinkers.

I was deeply involved with the church, I learned, and I will not be back. You assume the correct path will lead to Jesus eventually, or I'll go to hell. I've come to the conclusion that eventually as evolution continues, people become more educated, more information is available on the web and elsewhere that we will, as a species, outgrow our need for gods and face reality without superstition and dogma.

I'm sorry if that sounds rude or implies you don't have broad knowledge.

If the bible is infalible truth, why is it that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John have a different version of the resurection? Different people present, the cave open in one when they arrive, in another an angel moves the stone. Which one is truth and which three are in error?

RACER X, come on guy, give the anger a rest.

No one is bashing you, we are simply putting out diffrent ideas

Your posts are getting more and more hostile, and yes, I get the company you are putting us in (For the record, I have not been a "whoremonger" since I got married. Of course, there was that period when I played guiter in a rock cover band in collage...):)

Insulting someone who has not insulted you is not a good way to get your point across....surley jesus would not approve!

I really think this may have run its course, and I really do not want this to get into personal attacks.....You are coming down on Les for things I said, I think....while I did not mean to sound like I was bashing anyone, the tone of my posts was not as innoccuous as Les..and I feel I may have insulted you. That was not my intent.

I enjoy talking about this stuff, due to my own life experiance...you know my parents are of mixed faith..
I turned from my mothers faith the day a rabbi made a pass at here, in temple, knowing she was married.

So, I went to a catholic high school.

I saw the best and the worst things about organized relegion in my time there

I have been assalted because of the perception I was not catholic. I was the target of a priest and nun who called me a "christ killer"


When I graduated I was given a star of david which our school principle, a goodly nun, had brought back from a trip to isreal...She told me I was her "second favorite jew" I did not have the heart to tell her that I was lost to organized religion forever.

I think if you take a deep breath, you would have to agree it is hard to think of god the way you seem too, in a world were alter boys are treated like food at a buffet table by pedo priests...
who do their work in the name of god..

I know, the only real answer for the questions many of us pose is "you must have faith"

I think of the children who are marked for life, and the things I have seen, and that simply is not acceptable to myself, or Les I think.


let me give you one more quote from the stoic philosopher Epictetus

it answers the question of why man has two ears..
.
"nature has givin to people one tongue and but two ears, that we may hear twice as much as we speak"

Again, I urge you to look at ceramicseals post....he is a christian that gets what the message is and the way it should be handled..your method will just turn people off...

That's quite a life story, klegg. I agree that RacerX is starting to go over the top a bit. I am a born-again Christian, I believe the statements of faith that RacerX has said (I'll say that guardedly; I haven't read every line of his every post, but I do believe what the Bible says is true). However, I do not feel compelled to ram this down people's throats. That is a sure turn-off. I am responsible to be true to my faith, to share it when I feel it is appropriate; I am not responsible for how it is received by the listener. That is the job of the Holy Spirit, not me.

In response to the story about your principal, "When I graduated I was given a star of david which our school principle, a goodly nun, had brought back from a trip to isreal...She told me I was her "second favorite jew" I did not have the heart to tell her that I was lost to organized religion forever."

I think her message and intent were badly misinterpreted. Of course, I don't know her and I wasn't there. Although you were or are a Christian, she was acknowledging your Jewish heritage which remains a part of you regardless of your chosen faith. It was very touching for her to bring back a Star of David for you; this is not to denigrate your Christian beliefs as anyone who belongs to "Jews for Jesus" can attest. And being her second-favorite Jew is no small compliment considering her favorite, of course, is Jesus. You are in good company. I think she really meant well but wasn't sensitive you how it sounded to you.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
It was very touching for her to bring back a Star of David for you; this is not to denigrate your Christian beliefs as anyone who belongs to "Jews for Jesus" can attest. And being her second-favorite Jew is no small compliment considering her favorite, of course, is Jesus. You are in good company. I think she really meant well but wasn't sensitive you how it sounded to you.

There already is a name for "Jews for Jesus" - Christians!

I wasn't feeling hostile. As for "whoremonger", if you're refering to my quoting of Revelation 21:8, the key word there is "unbelieving". And, yes, the whoremonger thing is definitely a part of my past as well. I'm forever struggling to keep it in the past too. :) That one's a toughie for me. But, no, that was not what I was refering to. Honest.

I've had trouble with this thread, winding up feeling quite defensive, yes, about christianity. Last night, it just hit me to just be cool about your and Les's comments and views and opinions. I was answering to one of Les's posts with the counter-views that came to my mind. And having fun with a new online biblical reference site too (in case you haven't been able to tell :) It rocks!)
I'm sorry to come off looking like - whatever. I've never had such a long debate on this topic, especially on the internet. You're right, it's hard to know the spirit of the writer, the underlying animosity between the lines. This isn't working anymore, if it ever was at all really.

You guys had a real bad past. klegg, LesPaul jtimbck2. Yes, I do feel bad about that & can only hope that those deep wounds can eventually heal.

Peace!

edit: Ouch! Et tu, 8_wannabe. Then fall Racer!

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
That's quite a life story, klegg. I agree that RacerX is starting to go over the top a bit. I am a born-again Christian, I believe the statements of faith that RacerX has said (I'll say that guardedly; I haven't read every line of his every post, but I do believe what the Bible says is true). However, I do not feel compelled to ram this down people's throats. That is a sure turn-off. I am responsible to be true to my faith, to share it when I feel it is appropriate; I am not responsible for how it is received by the listener. That is the job of the Holy Spirit, not me.

In response to the story about your principal, "When I graduated I was given a star of david which our school principle, a goodly nun, had brought back from a trip to isreal...She told me I was her "second favorite jew" I did not have the heart to tell her that I was lost to organized religion forever."

I think her message and intent were badly misinterpreted. Of course, I don't know her and I wasn't there. Although you were or are a Christian, she was acknowledging your Jewish heritage which remains a part of you regardless of your chosen faith. It was very touching for her to bring back a Star of David for you; this is not to denigrate your Christian beliefs as anyone who belongs to "Jews for Jesus" can attest. And being her second-favorite Jew is no small compliment considering her favorite, of course, is Jesus. You are in good company. I think she really meant well but wasn't sensitive you how it sounded to you.


She was the only good thing about the school....I did not take offense at all by her actions, I was flattered. and touched...my point was that there are good and bad points to organized religion...shown by her tolerance, and the other nuns and priests intolerance.

As to the jews for jesus thing, I never considered myself a jew(just a 1/2 jew) in a religious sense, but I did participate in my mothers services, as I did for my father..it is unfortunate that bigots do not stop to ask what you think...it is enough to have the genes. You know, up until the 1800s, the focus was on conversion, being of another faith was a choice, so you saw things like the inquesition(wow, spelling) in the 1800, a german doctor published a book holding that to be a jew was genetic, not a choice, so conversion was never an option..

This set the stage for the genocide of WWII.

Yup, a jew trapped in a catholics body....my whole life I have contemplated a sect change....

I thought we were done several pages ago. I'm glad that you can allow me to think differently than you do. I suspect that if we met, we could be friends. I have many friends of many faiths and we get into this stuff all the time. If you could see my eyes you would understand that I am not trying to mock you or hurt you. If you could see my eyes you'd see honest inquisitiveness and an eagerness to learn until the day I die. I know I can learn from you. Perhaps you can print this discussion and use it as an opportunity to learn with your church groups.

These are very complex ideas for we mere mortals to understand. Perhaps we are unable to truly understand. After 20 years as a fully committed Christian, I understand your position because I was there, Racer. I then was exposed to unimaginable horror and misery and god and I have not spoken since.

I think the answers to the universal questions lie in String Theory, Physics and concepts that we are now only becoming aware of.

If Jesus gives you peace, by all means embrace him and I wish you well.

Originally posted by klegg
Yup, a jew trapped in a catholics body....my whole life I have contemplated a sect change....

ROFLMAO. Good thing you have a sense of humor about it.

WOW!

WOW! WHAT A THREAD! i'm gone for a few days and look what you guys get into! bravo all of you for keeping the discussion rational and without any childish bickering. eclipso good on you for coming out i commend you.

on the religious side of this discussion maybe those that have been quoting scripture can help me out. the is a verse or 2 i have read in the Bible that goes something like "those that have been given the law and follow the law will get to heaven, those that have been given the law but dont follow it wont. but those that have not been given the law but live as if they had will get to heaven" I'm paraphrasing of course but if someone could quote the actual verse that would be a big help.

Originally posted by zoom44
there is a verse or 2 i have read in the Bible that goes something like "those that have been given the law and follow the law will get to heaven, those that have been given the law but dont follow it wont. but those that have not been given the law but live as if they had will get to heaven" I'm paraphrasing of course but if someone could quote the actual verse that would be a big help.

That would make a nice and convenient loophole if there really were such a verse, but I've never come across anything like that. RacerX, you're using some kinda online Bible search tool, what about it?

I believe zoom44 is referring to a passage in Romans that says
'who show the work of the law written in their hearts,their consience also bearing witness,and between themselves their thoughts accusing or excusing them'
This was in reference to God's judgement of men in relation to the jewish law. He (the writer-Paul) is expressing that a Gentile or non Jew may not have grown up in the law but may live respectful of such.Therefore being a part of a certain organistion or heritage or school of thought is totally of no consequence.
Funny how things haven't changed; just the actors in the play.
Love to all, Paul.

excellent ceramicseal thank you! so on to my point. earlier someone said they didn't think getting to heaven or whatever higher plain you believe, was a matter of being a christian, a jew, catholic,a buddist or whatever, but it was really about how you lived your life. i think that passage from romans would support that idea.

Originally posted by zoom44
excellent ceramicseal thank you! so on to my point. earlier someone said they didn't think getting to heaven or whatever higher plain you believe, was a matter of being a christian, a jew, catholic,a buddist or whatever, but it was really about how you lived your life. i think that passage from romans would support that idea.

Yes thank you ceramicseal..

I was the one who put that out...I think it is the message, not the organizations ,that is the key...the problem is trying to get through thousands of years of mans additions and editing.

well said klegg. sorry i didn't remember it was you, this is a very long thread :)

FWIW, there's a petition against Phelps' proposed monument at petitiononline.com (http://www.petitiononline.com/mrphelps/petition.html). 76581 signatures so far.

I was raised Catholic, entered seminary to studied for the Catholic priesthood, left seminary, then left Catholicism, then left Christianity. I respect anyone's right to believe as they choose, provide they do not legislate any of their religious morals into law.

There are three arguments I would like to make. I can't make the claim that Jesus never did exist. But I can and do claim that the non-Christian historical evidence of Jesus is very, very slim. So how do we know that the prophecy about the savior being born in Jerusalem is true? We have to believe in the Bible. How do we know the prophecy that he will die and rise again came true? We have to believe the Bible. How do we know that Mary was a virgin when Jesus was conceived? We have to believe the Bible. Why do we have to believe the Bible? Because the prophecies about Jesus all came true? But wait... if we need to believe the Bible to believe the prophecies, and we need to believe the prophecies to believe the Bible, then we are using circular reasoning.

As an example, let's say I declared that I am god. How do I know I am god? I know because I said so. How can I say so? Because I am god. There's no way for you to prove me wrong --- but there's also no way I can prove that I am right. The same goes for the Bible. If you choose to believe, that is your faith and your choice. You cannot argue from logic or proof, only faith.

Second, the Bible is literally full of orders from God for genocide, slaughter, and rape. God was angered at the world and wiped out all but a few people and animals with the flood. God killed every firstborn Egyptian son. God ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and even the livestock of many cities in the Promised Land. In some other cities, everyone was killed except for the young virgin women, who were divided up among the men of Israel as slaves. Whenever the Israelites lost their faith, God had invaders slaughter them, destroy their cities, and make them slaves. The Israelites were God's chosen people, His chosen among the world. Why would a loving God love the Israelites more than anyone else? Does this sound like a God worthy of your love? Not to me it doesn't.

Third, as was described very well in some of the links, literal interpretation of all Biblical law is a very foolish idea. Leviticus condemns sex between men. It also demands the sacrifice of animals on certain holidays, the execution of adulterers, and the execution of disobedient children. There are rules for buying and selling slaves, too. Jesus Himself condemned divorce in the Gospels. If you're going to state that the gays are damned and will suffer God's wrath, then to really follow the Bible you should work just as hard to pass laws for capital punishment for extramarital sex and the buying and selling of Mexicans and Canadians. You should also advocate the execution of people who remarry after divorce and set up altars to slit the throats of goats and sheep on the appointed holidays. Women should not be permitted to speak in public, either. You must believe the Earth is flat and it is approximately 6000 years old, too.

:) *pats Family Guy on back*

Originally posted by Family Guy
I respect anyone's right to believe as they choose, provide they do not legislate any of their religious morals into law. [/i]

as a former Catholic, i can relate. strangely, i feel exactly the same way (the whole post). that's quite the journey you've made there, my friend: i'm glad it didn't take me so long to come to my conclusion.

Originally posted by wakeech
:) *pats Family Guy on back*

as a former Catholic, i can relate. strangely, i feel exactly the same way (the whole post). that's quite the journey you've made there, my friend: i'm glad it didn't take me so long to come to my conclusion.

Thanks. :)

I had a really difficult time when I lost my faith, and I'm still in a spirited (but much to my surprise, diplomatic and non-violent) argument with my family about it.

Originally posted by FamilyGuy
Thanks. :)

I had a really difficult time when I lost my faith, and I'm still in a spirited (but much to my surprise, diplomatic and non-violent) argument with my family about it.

it was, uh, 3 days ago that i finally admitted it to my mom (after a good 4.5 years being an atheist), but still "in the closet" with dad.

Originally posted by FamilyGuy
Thanks. :)

I had a really difficult time when I lost my faith, and I'm still in a spirited (but much to my surprise, diplomatic and non-violent) argument with my family about it.

Very well said, I wish you had been part of the thread from the begining.

If the religious right had their way, the entire last paragraph of your post WOULD BE LAW in the US! After all, for the fundementalists, youou can not pick and choose...

Oh my, I guess I'm alone.But that's okay.
FamilyGuy, I feel for you; and politely I put some of the blame on the Church of Rome.The walk of a catholic can be quite confusing.
However the walk with Christ need not be an ignorant, blind faith journey.
I'd like to,if I can adress some of your asessments.
First I think some might be surprised at the caliber of some of the unrelated,un-biased individuals who made account of the existence of this unusual character.Do some research on the historian Josephus who lived during that time. His accounts of events at that time are highly regarded and respected.He was not a follower of Christ in any form or fashion but he does make mention of him and his followers.A lot of people used to question the accuracy of the apostle Luke but as time has transpired archealogical finds have eliminated doubts amongst many a scholar.Look at a quote from his account "Nowin the fifteenth year of the reign of TiberiusCaesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and Herod was tetrarch of Galilee,and his brother Phillip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene....."
His level of detail is incredible.This sort of detail leaves one open to extreme scrutiny.Luke has passed the test time and time again.
To your second point, you've lumped a lot of things together I'm assuming to suggest that the God of the Bible is harsh and unjust.In my opinion a lot of it comes down to context.He has never changed;He has always abhored sin.He has, however,dealt with it in different ways on different occasions with good reason.As for him encouraging rape;that's news to me.Being a chosen people (Jews) does not make one better than others and with that, as you have observed yourself, comes great responsibility and occasionally suffering.If God has demonstrated any special love for the Jewish people I would attribute it to the fact that his Son was to come through them.
On your third point, what is 'Biblical Law'? Again you've heaped a bunch of things together that don't necessarily belong.A lot of the Laws that you are refering to pertained to those people at that time.Christ made some interesting clarifications of the laws that they were bound to including a statement on divorce that you just mentioned, during what is known as the sermon on the mount.He took the time to show the heart of the law vs the warpage they were teaching(often for political gain)
BTW the saying an eye for an eye relates to fair punishments. So any society seeking to use the Bible as some sort of guide for judicial matters would obviously want to take these things in context.
These are my opinions, and I offer them again in love.

Ceramicseal,
Just to repeat my main point, I respect your right to believe as you wish. I just disagree with you.

If you check here (http://www.skepticfiles.org/moretext/josephus.htm), there is sufficient reason to believe that the Jesus account in Josephus' writings was fabricated - possibly by the Church father Eusebius. Also, Josephus did not mention Jesus' resurrection, only that he was a respected wise man crucified by Pilate. There have been thousands of respected wise men who were not the Son of God, so I consider it a big leap of faith to take Josephus' word as evidence that Jesus was divine.

The accuracy of the historical details of Luke's Gospel is irrelevant to the accuracy of his depiction of Jesus. To use an example, let's say I wrote a book claiming I am a god and then mentioned the war on Iraq, Michael Jackson's trial, the primary elections for the 2004 US Presidential election, and a list of TV shows in complete detail. If someone read my book in 2000 years and found archaeological evidence that what I said about present day events was correct, that still is not evidence that I am a god.

Rape in the Bible: Judges 21:10-24 the men of the tribe of Benjamin kidnap the women of another nation to be their wives - rape. Numbers 31:7-18 the Israelites kill every man, child, and women who is not a virgin among the Midianites but Moses instructs them to keep the virgins for themselves - rape. Deuteronomy 20:10-14 instructions which state that the Israelites may keep the women of any town they conquer as spoils of war - rape. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 if a man rapes a woman, he must pay her father a fine and then marry her. A woman who is raped must marry her attacker... does that sound right to you?

I should have clarified my position on "God's Chosen People". I did not mean that God was more lenient in his judgement of the Jews. He definitely was not. Every time they turned from him, he had them slaughtered like cattle and sold into slavery. I meant that God had no sympathy for other people. The Jews eradicated all other groups living in Canaan when they entered, at God's command. How can rape and genocide possibly be justified in any way?

Jesus' statements at the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere in the Gospels supersede the Old Testament. I understand that, and I am glad that is how you believe. Note, however, that almost all of the Bible passages used to justify Christian condemnation of homosexuality are drawn from the Old Testament laws that Jesus supersedes. The New Testament passages condemning homosexuality are in the letters of Paul, but Paul also forbids women from speaking during services and condemns slaves that desire freedom (all in Corinthians 1, and in other Epistles). He also says it is bad to interact with non-Christians (in Corinthians 2 and other Epistles). Paul forbids women from teaching or wearing jewelry too (Timothy 1). So anyone who wants to absolutely follow the Bible, even just the New Testament, has a lot of unusual rules to follow.

[Edited for clarity]

A lot of people used to question the accuracy of the apostle Luke

I question the accuracy of Luke being an Apostle.

Originally posted by rxeightr
I question the accuracy of Luke being an Apostle.

Heh - I don't know how I missed that one.

Originally posted by FamilyGuy


Second, the Bible is literally full of orders from God for genocide, slaughter, and rape. God was angered at the world and wiped out all but a few people and animals with the flood. God killed every firstborn Egyptian son. God ordered the Israelites to kill every man, woman, child, and even the livestock of many cities in the Promised Land. In some other cities, everyone was killed except for the young virgin women, who were divided up among the men of Israel as slaves. Whenever the Israelites lost their faith, God had invaders slaughter them, destroy their cities, and make them slaves. The Israelites were God's chosen people, His chosen among the world. Why would a loving God love the Israelites more than anyone else? Does this sound like a God worthy of your love? Not to me it doesn't.



Thank you, Family Guy. After being sent to Christian schools and raised in the Christian faith, I abandoned it for the very reasons you mention above. Why on earth would I want to worship a deity as cruel, sadistic, temperamental, and vindictive as the one described in the Bible? I must add to the list of God-committed sins above the trials of Job (a faithful servant of a capricious God) and the hideous torture of Jesus Christ himself -- scourged, crowned with thorns, nailed to a cross, and stabbed with a spear... and then left to hang and slowly die from infection, blood loss, and thirst. How charming an image! Why do Catholics proudly display grotesque depictions of this horror in their homes and churches? It's nauseating. Don't even get me started on what Holy Communion is actually supposed to represent.

I have several devoutly Christian friends... all intelligent professionals in science-based careers. I've asked them to explain to me why I should worship and love a God who commits such deplorable acts, and I have never gotten an answer. So... I choose to remain pointedly agnostic. I have no fear of dying, even though I'm sure that once I'm dead, there is nothing (heaven or hell) waiting for me on "the other side".

If (as all my Christian friends tell me) animals don't have souls, I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway. Just cremate me, sprinkle my ashes in the ocean over a gorgeous tropical coral reef, and let my atoms be recycled rather than confined in a hermetically sealed box underground. Uggh.

And don't bury my in my RX-8! Let it go to someone else who will appreciate and enjoy it. :)

Originally posted by Aratinga
And don't bury my in my RX-8! Let it go to someone else who will appreciate and enjoy it. :)

Someone like me! :D

(Not that I'm in a hurry for you to die or anything.)


I would like to think that A God exists, but I doubt that any human religion has anything right about God's nature.

the only good reason to be gay if u were born with something of a girl is inside of u, if u turn gay that is bad, people become gay by their sorroundings as a child, no they shouldnt go to hell but again homosexuality brought many diseases in this world

if a gay hit on me ill knock his teeth out

one of the signs of judement day in islam is Homosexuality, wat do u guys think?

Originally posted by mental pimp
the only good reason to be gay if u were born with something of a girl is inside of u, if u turn gay that is bad, people become gay by their sorroundings as a child, no they shouldnt go to hell but again homosexuality brought many diseases in this world

if a gay hit on me ill knock his teeth out

Great...We were having a civilized discussion about this matter, and now this. Granted, the discussion turned more into religious beliefs and not so much on comments from the initial post. But is was still decent and adult in nature. Now this comment/post.

First off, here we go with common misconceptions. Diseases? I assume you are primarily referring to the HIV and AIDS Virus? Weel, got news for you. It is not a "gay disease" or a "gay plague". That was the thinking in the early-mid 80's when it was first discovered. This horrid virus attacks people from all walks of life. Not just homosexuals. It is spread by all forms of sex, homosexual and heterosexual. It is spread by drug use involving unclean needles. It was spread by blood transfusions, until the last several years when better screening took place in later 80's early 90's. It is passed from a mother to her unborn child. It is spread by unintentional contact. And so on. So don't try to use a sterotype that the homosexual population speads disease. It is a horrible disease that affects all. As far as other diseases, I would assume you could only be referring to the slew of other STD's, of which affect all of the population as well.

As far as why a person is homosexual, that is one of the oldest debates there is. Nobody knows. Some scientists/researchers say it is due to their surroundings growing up. Others believe it is part of the genetic makeup and cannot be altered. There are numberous beliefs in this matter.

And why does every homophobic man think that homosexual men wants to "hit on them"? I don't think I will ever understand that thinking. And in the unlikely event that happened, it is good to know you are mentally ready to handle that. (insert sarcastic look here). Geez, what is with people this days.

well thanks for clearing that up, and a guy would get pissed if got hit on by a gay guy

Originally posted by mental pimp
well thanks for clearing that up, and a guy would get pissed if got hit on by a gay guy

Let's say some really ugly chick with no teeth, skin tumors, and a butt the size of Kansas tried to hit on you. Would you punch her lights out because the thought of having sex with her makes you feel sick? Probably not. So why do you think it's okay to attack a guy if he hits on you?

i wouldnt hit girls, but some people just go crazy if a guy hits on them , im predicting that i might also get mad if i get hit on by a guy

dont think i hate gays or something, so please dont bring that crap up

Originally posted by mental pimp
dont think i hate gays or something, so please dont bring that crap up

so why would you get mad if a guy hit on you? personally i would think it's ok and politely tell the person i am married just as i would if a heterosexual woman hit on me.

cause, theres something called not liking gay and hating gays, i dont like them becuase of child molestation that is happening today

Folks, don't try debating with the Pimp. This thread was going fine and showed a lot of mutual respect in what is a difficult subject. One schmuck can't derail it unless we let him. Please ignore him and carry on the otherwise intelligent dialog we've seen in this thread.

Originally posted by mental pimp
dont think i hate gays or something, so please dont bring that crap up

So I guess it's OK for any girl you might hit on to get pissed off and knock all your teeth out if she doesn't appreciate your advances? That's EXACTLY the same thing.

Obviously you do have serious issues with gays if you could even write the crap you posted - to everyone else reading this (with a modicum of intelligence and maturity), it's quite apparent that you have issues with your own sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't contemplate such a violent reaction (that means - you're secretly worried that you might be gay).

Best of luck sorting that out.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by mental pimp
cause, theres something called not liking gay and hating gays, i dont like them becuase of child molestation that is happening today

Gays don't molest children, pedophiles do. Do you dislike ALL heterosexuals because adult men molest young girls? There's a far greater percentage of pedophile straight people than pedophile gay people.

Re your earlier ignorant comment about spreading disease - AIDS is almost exclusively a heterosexual disease in Africa, where it's impact is destroying the continent. I guess there's another good reason (in your twisted world) to hate heterosexuals - based on the reasons you've posted so far for disliking gays, you should actually dislike us heteros much more.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by mental pimp
cause, theres something called not liking gay and hating gays, i dont like them becuase of child molestation that is happening today
So all gay people are child molesters now? Correct me if im wrong, but many of the child abuse crimes were carried out by heterosexual men, not Gay people.
Just beacause they have different sexual interests does not automatically mean the are paedophiles.

Gord, he hates gays because he hates gays. He doesn't need a reason, but if the reason he says doesn't work he'll come up with another. There's no debating with hatred; it's not like all of a sudden he's gonna say, "You know what, I guess I was wrong about this gay thing." Just ignore him and let's get this thread back to more constructive dialog.

umm so ur saying that i hate gays now, so theres either u like gays or u hate gays, there is no option for not liking wat they are doing????? and not all gays are child molestors but if a guy molests a 10yr kid he is homosexual

so gays dont bring STDS to this world?

No, viruses and bacteria cause STDs. Some of these are transmitted by unprotected sex acts. So, if it's the gays fault, who are they spreading them to? Other gays. Again, the percentage of the population that can be considered homosexual is around 3%. So, who is spreading STDs in the other 97% of the population? Heterosexuals. Just how are the gay people to blame for STDs in 97% of the population? Don't even think to pretend that STDs aren't epidemic in the hetero population, they are far more an issue than in the gay community.

Once again, you haven't got a clue - even the slightest bit of thought would have led you to that analysis yourself. Why don't you stop making an idiot of yourself in public and learn something before mouthing off with crap like that?

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by mental pimp
so gays dont bring STDS to this world?

Didn't this guy's sig used to say he was 15? Maybe that's the problem. Too much testosterone coursing through his system -- doesn't allow room for brain cells. Mental pimple more like it. :D

He used to say he was a prostitute and that his pimp was out of business. Same difference, he's just a little muddled. Pimple; I like it. That's his new name.

yea thats very old, pimple, i think Fritts called me that

I agree we should not even bother responding to his comments anymore. But, I am curious. Here's a question for you Mental. How old are you really? It appears from your comments/posts that you are no more than 16-18yoa. Maybe less. That might explain your homophobia and comments that have no merit to them. I must admit, when I was in my teens I made comments that were not based on facts, merely personal opinions that I had made before I had any life experiences to compare them to.

If you are a teenager, nothing wrong with that. Perhaps when you become a young man and start living in the real world and gaining real life experience your opinions will change. Or at the very least be based on more than just what you here in school or see on tv. I can only wish you the best in learning who you really are, and learning not to judge others based merely on preconcieved notions that society has somehow implanted in you.

That's all. I'm done for now. :)

im less than 16 and more than 14, u guys are so nice , let me dance for u

Originally posted by mental pimp
if a gay hit on me ill knock his teeth out

so if you hit on a female (assuming you are hetero) and she doesn't feel attracted to you, it's OK by your logic for her to kick out your teeth (and maybe stomp your testicles for good measure.)

i've been hit on by men before, and my response is a polite response "thanks for the compliment, but i like girls." no one has ever pushed when i've politely (or humourously) declined.

Ecto, he'll grow out of it or his mom will monitor his Internet habits more closely in the future. Either way, ignore him and he'll go away.

not all people are the same , do dont expect me to be nice if that happens to me

Anybody here into beastiality?

no but i like the beastie boys.

LOL! No, no, no! ;)

Originally posted by mental pimp
not all people are the same , do dont expect me to be nice if that happens to me

I asked you this same question earlier, and you ignored it - now you've been asked again:so if you hit on a female (assuming you are hetero) and she doesn't feel attracted to you, it's OK by your logic for her to kick out your teeth (and maybe stomp your testicles for good measure.)

If you're still here in this discussion, then you're obligated to answer rather than just stay hiding behind your prejudice and hatred - do you think it's OK for a girl to knock your teeth in if you hit on her and she doesn't like you hitting on her?

I love the mental picture of you handing her a bat, then saying "hey babe, want to go out? If not, you get a full swing at my face, because I believe that's a fair and appropriate response".

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Anybody here into beastiality?

You scare me sometimes Racer.....lol

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
I asked you this same question earlier, and you ignored it - now you've been asked again:

If you're still here in this discussion, then you're obligated to answer rather than just stay hiding behind your prejudice and hatred - do you think it's OK for a girl to knock your teeth in if you hit on her and she doesn't like you hitting on her?

I love the mental picture of you handing her a bat, then saying "hey babe, want to go out? If not, you get a full swing at my face, because I believe that's a fair and appropriate response".

Regards,
Gordon

no wouldnt she wouldnt have to kick my ass because, its a normal thing to ask a oposite sex out, again i dont hate gays but i dont like the idea of two men having sex

Originally posted by mental pimp
no wouldnt she wouldnt have to kick my ass because, its a normal thing to ask a oposite sex out, again i dont hate gays but i dont like the idea of two men having sex


think . If it bothers you so much just dont about gays having sex then.

thats it no more, now shut up

Originally posted by eclps0
think . If it bothers you so much just dont about gays having sex then.

ok, i was giving my opinions and these animals came at me calling me homphobic, wat the hell is their problem?

I really hate when people say gay people brought aids that is (don't mind my French) bullshit. Monkeys brought aids to the world, and when people think all gay people have aids thats also false. The gay community is miniscule compared to heterosexual people so there are more straight people with aids then there are gay. Im not saying there alot of gays with aids but its more common with heterosexuals. I really don't take the aids issue well at all i have had a cousin kill himself because he had sex with someone that has hiv, A cousin die from aids,also before i came out my x girlfriends step dad has aids and his in very bad shape.

Originally posted by mental pimp
ok, i was giving my opinions and these animals came at me calling me homphobic, wat the hell is their problem?

LOL if you were i don't think u would be talking to me now. I know plenty people that don't mind if your gay but they don't want you to talk about anything sexual. Which is perfectly understandable.

Well, we've gotten this one to #10 for all-time most viewed thread in the lounge. Woooo! #9 ain't all that far away either.

If y'all take a stab at answering my last querry, I'm sure we'll take it to the top! Yee hah! :D

OKay Mental. It's understandable that you don't care to think about gay men having sex. I don't blame you. I don't like thinking about heterosexual sex....lol. But, do you find it erotic watching 2 women together? There are many heterosexual men in the general population that enjoy/fantasize about watching and/or being together with 2 women. Last time I checked, Lesbians are still homosexual as well. Assuming you don't mind that, why is it okay for women to be together but not men.

(By the way. You may want to pick up a copy of USA Today Newspaper tommorrow morning (tues). Might find an interesting ad in there from HRC-Human Rights Campaign)

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Anybody here into beastiality?

I dated a beastily girl once:)

Originally posted by IWANTMYRX8
OKay Mental. It's understandable that you don't care to think about gay men having sex. I don't blame you. I don't like thinking about heterosexual sex....lol. But, do you find it erotic watching 2 women together? There are many heterosexual men in the general population that enjoy/fantasize about watching and/or being together with 2 women. Last time I checked, Lesbians are still homosexual as well. Assuming you don't mind that, why is it okay for women to be together but not men.

(By the way. You may want to pick up a copy of USA Today Newspaper tommorrow morning (tues). Might find an interesting ad in there from HRC-Human Rights Campaign)



hmmmmmm (drools) two women.........

Aw klegg. Really? Was it cuz she wanted you real bad & you didn't have the heart to let her down?

Reminds me of a girl in 8th grade. She agreed to meet me somewhere and get drunk (my terms). Time drug on however and it never happened. Poor thing...

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Aw klegg. Really? Was it cuz she wanted you real bad & you didn't have the heart to let her down?

Reminds me of a girl in 8th grade. She agreed to meet me somewhere and get drunk (my terms). Time drug on however and it never happened. Poor thing...

No, she looked like the rear end of a mule!!! You have heard af a "butta" face? She was a Butta everything..but I was young, and she thought I was perfect.....God what was I thinking?

Originally posted by klegg
hmmmmmm (drools) two women......... Yeah boy!

Anybody that likes a little pojida can't be all that bad! :D :p :D ;)

Anyone who thinks this thread has outlived its purpose say "Aye!"

Aw man. And just when me and klegg got to doin' some male bonding...

ok, like almost every guy in this earth i would enjoy to see 2 women, but i wouldnt enjoy to see 2 men having sex, both things are wrong, but yea u do have a point, wat can i say?

and klegg, im still waiting for ur feedback from my PM

but again and i repeat, i do not hate gays, i get hated on a lot by being arab , i should know how much it would hurt to be hated on if ur gay so i dont hate on anybody, the only people i hate in this world is Sharon and his Israeli army and i have a darn good reason to

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Anyone who thinks this thread has outlived its purpose say "Aye!"

Ditto. I think all the positive view swapping has ended. But, I think alot was accomplished/shared over the last few weeks. Overall, a good thread. I agree it's time to probably let it die now though. :(

kill it!!!!

Click on "Report" and tell the moderators. I've been reporting this thread for a couple days now, I guess you need to make a lot of noise to get their attention.

To my longest thread yet. Well just want to ay there are very open minded and caring peopel on this board. Im happy to be a member on this forum.

Aw, we can be meaningful some more... really. :(

Hurry up somebody!

Hey Eclps0...Reference my earlier post bout 'USA Today' paper. Make sure you pick one up in the morning. We, (meaning members of Human Rights Campaign), raised enough money to place a full page add in tommorrow's issue reference equal rights. It is the first of many ads to come in several national papers. If your not already a member, consider visiting their website. Would be a good thing to get involved in, especially at your age since you are obviosly already interested in "our" community, (ref the post that started it this whole thread).

Here is the email I was recently sent..Rather lengthy....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Robert,

Wow. We're overwhelmed. And inspired, humbled, speechless,
excited...the list goes on. When we asked for your support last
week to help fund our ad series beginning with the ad in USA
TODAY, we never expected such amazing generosity and enthusiasm. We're deeply honored by your commitment to educate America about our lives and families. Thank you. Are you ready for the results? Here they are:

You contributed over $150,000. That's right - over 3,100
activists donated an unprecedented $155,297 to be exact. So, of
course we're able to run the ad in USA TODAY! Look for it
tomorrow (Tuesday). Cut it out. Hang it on your wall. Please,
take pride in it. You made it possible.

What happens next? Well, we have a window of opportunity unlike any we've ever experienced, and it just makes sense to keep up the momentum. We'll be educating our legislators, working with the media to better tell our stories, and activating citizens across the country to support marriage equality. Key to these efforts is to continue to build this marriage campaign fund that you've started and to place ads in more mainstream newspapers across the country.

First up? Your generosity means we'll be able to place ads in
the New York Times (national edition) and the Boston Globe
within the next few weeks--and there will be more after that. If
you haven't pitched in yet, now is your chance to help make
history. Click here to make a contribution:
https://secure.ga3.org/03/thanks_hrc/ni7au4C61Gjzq

We already know that the fight against the radical right's
constitutional amendment will be long and difficult. Their
hurtful words are already filling up the airwaves and Internet.
Please watch your e-mail box for ways you can continue to fight.
And of course, there's always more to do (beyond what you've
already done) right now:

:: We've put all of the ads for this campaign into one place!
Take a look at the whole series at the HRC Ad Center:
http://www.hrcactioncenter.org/ct/b7au4C61WQAh//

Originally posted by Racer X-8
Aw, we can be meaningful some more... really. :(

Hurry up somebody!

ok we've talked abput the existence of God in this thread. some believe some dont. so what exactly is the purpose of our short existence on this earth? can we answer that question only by proving there is a God or not?

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Click on "Report" and tell the moderators. I've been reporting this thread for a couple days now, I guess you need to make a lot of noise to get their attention.

with all due respect why? if you dont like the thread ignore it.

Originally posted by klegg
No, she looked like the rear end of a mule!!! You have heard af a "butta" face? She was a Butta everything..but I was young, and she thought I was perfect.....God what was I thinking? As the old line goes: "I've never gone to bed with an ugly woman, but I've sure woken up with a few!" :p

Originally posted by RX-GR8
with all due respect why? if you dont like the thread ignore it.
Well, when it looked like the discussion was tending towards sex with animals that's when it seem a little over the top to me. Anyway, the moderators must feel as you do, since here y'all still are. this really was a good and constructive discussion for awhile, too bad it got off on a tangent.

Ah, a nibble! I'll take that as a bite.

I was inquiring as to whether or not any of us had pet gerbles, or were intimate with their pit bull. Yes. What, in 2003, is still considered to be "over the top"? If it's considered by you to indeed be over the top, how are you to react to / treat / respect someone that is indulging in your self-defined over-the-top sexual activities?

RX-GR8, without a God and a life in the hereafter, the purpose of our short existence on this earth becomes moot.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Well, when it looked like the discussion was tending towards sex with animals that's when it seem a little over the top to me. Anyway, the moderators must feel as you do, since here y'all still are. this really was a good and constructive discussion for awhile, too bad it got off on a tangent.

ok point taken. perhaps we can get the discussion back inline.

Originally posted by mental pimp
ok, like almost every guy in this earth i would enjoy to see 2 women, but i wouldnt enjoy to see 2 men having sex, both things are wrong, but yea u do have a point, wat can i say?

and klegg, im still waiting for ur feedback from my PM

I read it, and do not have anything else to add.. I did look over your links, they do seem slanted a bit, but it is a good start to getting all the info you can.

Originally posted by Racer X-8
RX-GR8, without a God and a life in the hereafter, the purpose of our short existence on this earth becomes moot.

ah yes, the old struggle for the substantiation of athiestic existance... maybe there is no reason?? maybe the best things we can do in life is benefit others, and try to provide a better life for those that come after us??

c'mon Racer, you can't tell me that the only reason you ever do anything is because God said so...

Originally posted by wakeech
ah yes, the old struggle for the substantiation of athiestic existance... maybe there is no reason?? maybe the best things we can do in life is benefit others, and try to provide a better life for those that come after us??

c'mon Racer, you can't tell me that the only reason you ever do anything is because God said so...

Wow, well said!! Finding meaning in a meaningless world....My boy, I think you are ready to read some nietsche!! May I suggest "beyond good an evil" and of course, "thus spoke zarathustra"

Originally posted by RX-GR8
so what exactly is the purpose of our short existence on this earth?

Well, to be clinically biological about it, the "purpose" of each individual's existence is to ensure the continued survival of the species -- by having sex. The more the better. :) The theory says that, since sexual reproduction results in a beneficial blending of genetic material that results in genetically diverse and unique offspring, individuals of a species are evolutionarily "hard-wired" with a drive to copulate -- thereby guaranteeing the next generation sufficient genetic diversity to be able to survive ever-changing selective pressures.

So quit arguing about it and get to it, ladies and gentlemen! And whomever you choose to engage in such activity with is fine by me, as long as it's consensual (which definitely rules out the bestiality angle, at least in my book). :D

Originally posted by Aratinga
quit arguing about it and get to it, ladies and gentlemen!:D

i concur. :cool:

Originally posted by wakeech
ah yes, the old struggle for the substantiation of athiestic existance... maybe there is no reason?? maybe the best things we can do in life is benefit others, and try to provide a better life for those that come after us??

c'mon Racer, you can't tell me that the only reason you ever do anything is because God said so... I like your answer too. Very nice. It's a good answer to the question that RX-GR8 asked, and it stands by itself, so I'm gonna leave it alone.

In answer to your question to me, NO. I wish I were that obeying. Alas, I have been given the freedom to do as I wish, like all of us, and there are lots of times that I surely don't do what He says, many times without even realizing it. Thankfully, like Mr. Shepard and Mr. Phelps, the deal is that you don't have to be perfect, you just have to believe. A cousin of mine died yeterday after a year of stomach cancer. He reconciled with God months ago. If it was for real (only he and God really knew), he's doing ok now.

Actually, the point is moot since, if God didn't exist, it is my belief that I (we) wouldn't have come into existance.

Oh yeah, I was in a big hurry to go to - you guesed it - church. I forgot to tell Aratinga - ding! You got it baby! Hit the nail right on the head! :D

And for what it's worth, you wrote "If (as all my Christian friends tell me) animals don't have souls, I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway.", I must disagree with your friends. There are many references in the bible that describe birds and "everything that has breath" following what God desires. How could that be if they don't have souls?

Your pup seems to be looking very stangely at me tonight though, like she's mad at me or something..... hmmmm..... :D

Originally posted by Aratinga
Thank you, Family Guy. After being sent to Christian schools and raised in the Christian faith, I abandoned it for the very reasons you mention above. Why on earth would I want to worship a deity as cruel, sadistic, temperamental, and vindictive as the one described in the Bible? I must add to the list of God-committed sins above the trials of Job (a faithful servant of a capricious God) and the hideous torture of Jesus Christ himself -- scourged, crowned with thorns, nailed to a cross, and stabbed with a spear... and then left to hang and slowly die from infection, blood loss, and thirst. How charming an image! Why do Catholics proudly display grotesque depictions of this horror in their homes and churches? It's nauseating. Don't even get me started on what Holy Communion is actually supposed to represent.

I have several devoutly Christian friends... all intelligent professionals in science-based careers. I've asked them to explain to me why I should worship and love a God who commits such deplorable acts, and I have never gotten an answer. So... I choose to remain pointedly agnostic. I have no fear of dying, even though I'm sure that once I'm dead, there is nothing (heaven or hell) waiting for me on "the other side".

If (as all my Christian friends tell me) animals don't have souls, I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway. Just cremate me, sprinkle my ashes in the ocean over a gorgeous tropical coral reef, and let my atoms be recycled rather than confined in a hermetically sealed box underground. Uggh.

And don't bury my in my RX-8! Let it go to someone else who will appreciate and enjoy it. :)


I must admit I agree with most of what you say, while this post has digressed there was a very nice discussion going on at one point. Your post made me weepy, which is a difficult thing to do. But some of the thing you said just struck a nerve.

I watched my mother whither away into nothing from breast cancer that had spread to her skeletal structure. I watched her suffer for 4 years when she was only supposed to have lived for 12-18 months when initially diagnosed. Many people during troubled times will turn to god, however I saw the cruelty in this world and mine and my mothers life, and turned away from god moreso than I had previously. My highly doubting there was a god in the christian sense would turn from doubt into believing there was no possible way there was a god as viewed by christian beliefs. A large part of christianity seems to be based on scare tactics and I won't be bullied. If by slim chance there is a god as christianity views him, I don't want to have anything to do with him.

I believe in myself and my own strength to make it through tough situations. I don't know what happens when you die, and frankly neither do christians, however I'm not going to fool myself into believing in a fable that just sounds like a good situation (I.E. Heaven) in order to make myself feel better about a loved one passing away or about my own immortality. I'll roll with the punches and be happy with the unknowing of what happens when we die; mystery surpasses blind faiith any day of the week for me.

I could go on but I don't want to go into too much of a diatribe on religious beliefs. The reason why your post struck a nerve is... Years prior to my mothers passing we had formed a company together to make marine fishfood that was spun off from our love of reefs and reef aquariums. She had always dreamed of going diving on a coral reef, but by the time she was ready to realize her dream she was too ill to consider it. Shortly after her death some members of my family and I took a trip and released her ashes over a coral reef. Will she ever know what we did for her, I doubt it. But I can't think of any place of the face of the earth she would rather be, whether she's aware of it or not.

Ike

Originally posted by IkeWRX
I watched my mother whither away into nothing from breast cancer that had spread to her skeletal structure. I watched her suffer for 4 years when she was only supposed to have lived for 12-18 months when initially diagnosed. Many people during troubled times will turn to god, however I saw the cruelty in this world and mine and my mothers life, and turned away from god moreso than I had previously. My highly doubting there was a god in the christian sense would turn from doubt into believing there was no possible way there was a god as viewed by christian beliefs. A large part of christianity seems to be based on scare tactics and I won't be bullied. If by slim chance there is a god as christianity views him, I don't want to have anything to do with him.

I believe in myself and my own strength to make it through tough situations. I don't know what happens when you die, and frankly neither do christians, however I'm not going to fool myself into believing in a fable that just sounds like a good situation (I.E. Heaven) in order to make myself feel better about a loved one passing away or about my own immortality. I'll roll with the punches and be happy with the unknowing of what happens when we die; mystery surpasses blind faiith any day of the week for me.

I could go on but I don't want to go into too much of a diatribe on religious beliefs. The reason why your post struck a nerve is... Years prior to my mothers passing we had formed a company together to make marine fishfood that was spun off from our love of reefs and reef aquariums. She had always dreamed of going diving on a coral reef, but by the time she was ready to realize her dream she was too ill to consider it. Shortly after her death some members of my family and I took a trip and released her ashes over a coral reef. Will she ever know what we did for her, I doubt it. But I can't think of any place of the face of the earth she would rather be, whether she's aware of it or not.

Ike

hey IKE welcome back, now be good. :) i too had similar feelings to yours after my mother-in-law passed away after 2 years of suffering from cancer that had spread from her kidney to her liver to her bones. my wife and i had only gotten married 2 years before. we were due to have a child born and we prayed that he would get to see his grandmother but our prayers went unanswered. she died a few weeks before he was born. that was rough then at 18 months of age our son was diagnosed with mild autism. i prayed that he would be healthy when he was born never even thinking about autism. my prayers went unanswered. but now he's 3 and in pre-school and puts a smile on my face every time i am with him and i wouldnt change a thing. and for some reason, although i have had 8 years of Catholic school, i am not very relgious though i consider myself spiritual, i choose to believe their is a God and this is what he had planned for my wife and i. so i take it a day at a time thats all i can do.

Originally posted by RX-GR8
hey IKE welcome back, now be good. :) i too had similar feelings to yours after my mother-in-law passed away after 2 years of suffering from cancer that had spread from her kidney to her liver to her bones. my wife and i had only gotten married 2 years before. we were due to have a child born and we prayed that he would get to see his grandmother but our prayers went unanswered. she died a few weeks before he was born. that was rough then at 18 months of age our son was diagnosed with mild autism. i prayed that he would be healthy when he was born never even thinking about autism. my prayers went unanswered. but now he's 3 and in pre-school and puts a smile on my face every time i am with him and i wouldnt change a thing. and for some reason, although i have had 8 years of Catholic school, i am not very relgious though i consider myself spiritual, i choose to believe their is a God and this is what he had planned for my wife and i. so i take it a day at a time thats all i can do.

I hope this doesn't come of as cold hearted because that certainly isn't my intent. But why not just look at it through a scientific explanation rather than placing responsibility on god. Whether the outcome be good or bad I just don't understand why people need to thank or curse god for their situation. Sometimes you just get a rough break, bad luck, goodluck whatever. Whats so difficult about just taking it for what it is rather than placing the responsibility on a higher being and making the situation out of your control.

In orther words, why not just be happy for yourself that you were able to make a bad situation into a good one rather than pass it off as this is what god planned

We make choices in our life and there are consequences we have to deal with as a result of those choices. It may not be the easiest way to live, but I've never been one for taking the easy road.

Ike

like i said i take it a day at a time and deal with it the best i can.

Originally posted by RX-GR8
like i said i take it a day at a time and deal with it the best i can.

Kind of skirts my question, but I can't fault your sentiment :)

i'll meet you half way. i believe in God. but i came to the conclusion that i had to deal with these life issues on my own. didnt blame God or curse Him. He didnt intercede, i was hoping He would. no biggie.

For those of you who lost a loved one, you have my condolences. I lost my grandfather to cancer recently.

This is where I am particularly annoyed at religions. People have been praying for God's help against disease, pain, and suffering for thousands of years. The rabies vaccine was discovered through research. The smallpox vaccine also was discovered through research. We know now that malaria is usually spread by mosquitos and the bubonic plague was spread by fleas and ticks from rats and mice. Headway has been made into curing cancer, heart disease, and AIDs, even if full cures are years or decades away.

Has prayer ever done open heart surgery, kidney transplants, removed tumors, provided vaccines, helped spread infection, created antibiotics, relieved pain like an anesthetic, or corrected poor vision? No.

Now, a believer can argue that God sent the scientists and physicians that gave us our cures and conducted the research. I dispute that for two reasons. First, there is no way to prove or disprove that God caused those things to happen. Second, and more importantly, religion has historically done very little to advance the cause of science. Do Catholicism, other forms of Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, or Islam hold up life as a medical researcher or scientist as a superior way to do God's work? No. For thousands of years, any scientific research that contradicted official religious teaching was condemned as heresy and the researcher was often exiled or executed. Now science and medical research is tolerated but not heavily supported.

I believe the people that create cures for cancer, heart disease, and AIDS will have done more to end human suffering than any group of religious figures in the history of the world.

Why do u exist? Why are you alive at this time? What is your purpose in your present lifetime?

I exist to help people in trouble or need. I live to show people that not all gay people are like the stereotype that follows them.MY presence in this time is to help people with problems and offer entertainment.

Originally posted by Racer X-8
I like your answer too. Very nice. It's a good answer to the question that RX-GR8 asked, and it stands by itself, so I'm gonna leave it alone.

In answer to your question to me, NO. I wish I were that obeying. Alas, I have been given the freedom to do as I wish, like all of us, and there are lots of times that I surely don't do what He says, many times without even realizing it. Thankfully, like Mr. Shepard and Mr. Phelps, the deal is that you don't have to be perfect, you just have to believe. A cousin of mine died yeterday after a year of stomach cancer. He reconciled with God months ago. If it was for real (only he and God really knew), he's doing ok now.

Actually, the point is moot since, if God didn't exist, it is my belief that I (we) wouldn't have come into existance.

The feedom to make a choice is the key to it all, I think. Since we alone on the planet have the ability to both understand and pick between right and wrong as a idea, not a reflex, that understanding must be the defining aspect of man.

Sorry for your loss.

eclpsO,
my hat's off to you.Even though I personally don't condone the gay lifestyle I'm impressed by your heart and apparent sincerity.
By the way, what's the meaning behind 'General Jew'?