I was making a left turn and started going through what I thought was going to be a yellow light. All of a sudden the light turns red and I see a big flash of lights (at night) - white, blue, red. I thought I got lit up by a cop, but realized it was a camera.

Of course I was pissed and puzzled at the same time because I thought I was going to make the light easily. I realized the yellow wasn't very long so I went back to time the yellow -- only 1.5 seconds. This compares to other yellows on the same street at intersections without cameras -- from 2.5 to 3 seconds.

Anyone think this is worth fighting in court? I was going to videotape the lights and transfer to a laptop to show the traffic judge.

Time for some research. Back home Down Under, the law requires a certain minimum duration (which varies with the speed limit) for the amber cycle at intersections policed by red light cameras.

dude that sucks man... You gotta wonder if they set it up like that just to trick people into getting ticketed...

My understanding of CA law is that the standard time for yellow is a minimum of 3 seconds. Check the full DMV book for the exact item number and legal wording.

If the law says it's supposed to be longer than what it really is, you should first talk with the prosecuter and let him/her know what you've found and ask for your case to be dismissed - that could save you from having to go to court. It would help if you video tape the intersection (and light) for a few minutes for proof. If you do video tape it, don't alter the video. Let the prosecuter know about the video and bring it with you.

If the video proves you right and the prosecuter won't budge, follow through with the whole court fiasco (plead not guilty, ask for a court date, etc.). Whenever you go to court, bring the tape.

You need to get video of that light BEFORE you contest the ticket. I would fight it.

They *do* set shit like that up just to generate revenue.

The shady part is, some large company offers to put these cams in for free, and then they would take like a 60% cut of ticket proceeds and then give the remainder to the police.. Its like free money for them! Except its never enough and you know... if those yellows were shorter MORE people would get tickets.. and you know these police cruisers are gettin kinda old now...

There are now quite a few documented cases in the US where the red light camera manufacturer, as mentioned above, gets a take of the proceeds rather than full payment up front for their systems, and where the yellow light duration has been illegally shortened. A bit of research should turn up those cases where cities had to throw out tickets issued with the short yellows - then, get some accurate timings (video with stopwatch display on screen?) to prove that the yellow in question is too short, and maybe get a lawyer to help you present. You could also call the newspapers with your research and see if they're interested in a good story about a city ticket scam, and through that invite other recipients to share your legal costs to get these thrown out en masse...

Regards,
Gordon

Why did you run a yellow? Did you creep or stop in the middle of the intersection waiting for an opportunity to turn left?

You should be VERY sure you can beat the ticket before you fight it. For an automated ticket, if you just pay it, no points on your license, because they can't prove who was driving the car. However, if you fight it (and thus essentially admit that you were driving) and lose, you get the points.

Here's the minimum yellow times code section for California:
9-04.5 Yellow Change Intervals

The purpose of the yellow signal indication is to warn traffic approaching the signal that the related green movement is ending or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter and traffic will be required to stop when the red signal is exhibited.


The length of the yellow change interval is dependent upon the speed of approaching traffic. Suggested yellow intervals are shown below are calculated by using the formula as shown in Table 9-1:

Approach Speed Yellow Interval
mph (km/h) (seconds)

25 or less (40 or less) 3.0
30 (48) 3.2
35 (56) 3.6
40 (64) 3.9
45 (72) 4.3
50 (80) 4.7
55 (89) 5.0
60 (97) 5.4
65 (105) 5.8

Originally posted by Rick
Why did you run a yellow? Did you creep or stop in the middle of the intersection waiting for an opportunity to turn left?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always understood that if you enter an intersection on yellow, you are perfectly legal. You can remain there waiting to turn until traffic clears, or you can blow through the intersection on a yellow light. As long as you are past the solid white line while the light is still yellow, I don't think you can be ticketed for squat.

Please note that I don't advocate going thru the intersection late into a yellow - I'm just stating what I thought was the law.

Thanks Kamala. This is about a shortened yellow light triggered below prescribed speed for the road, i.e. stopping/reaction distance is much shorter. Seen it myself, especially when approaching an intersection from downhill where gravity should prevail for a longer yellow, bastard revenue-generating enforcement! Many stoplight cameras have become more relaxed or even removed because they cause more lock-up/skidding/intersection accidents than they prevent. Nothing like a night-time strobe light to blind you when you need to see the most, even past the intersection.

No problem, anything I can do to help.

Originally posted by khoney
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I always understood that if you enter an intersection on yellow, you are perfectly legal. You can remain there waiting to turn until traffic clears,

Nope. Legally, the yellow light means "clear the intersection" - there are two ways to do this - one, if you are close enough to the intersection that to stop would be dangerous or impossible, then proceed through (ie panic braking isn't necessary). Two, if you aren't so close that stopping would be unsafe, then you are to stop. Basically, if the light turns red while you're in the intersection - then you had time to stop and should have done so, and are liable for a running-a-red ticket.

IF you're waiting in the intersection to make a turn - then you're legal as well.

The problem here is that with some of these red light cameras, they've shortened the yellow light duration so much that where you'd normally be able to proceed through the intersection (as in the first case I mentioned above), with the shortened yellow you're now not able to make it and thus get a unreasonable ticket.

Regards,
Gordon

That bites! They haven't allowed them to turn on the cameras around here yet, but they've been installed all over the place. I'll watch for the timing when they do - thanks for the heads up!

Make the left turn only if you have enough space to complete the turn before any oncoming vehicle, bicycle, or pedestrian becomes a hazard. Do not enter an intersection, even when the light is green, unless there is enough space to completely cross before the light turns red. If heavy traffic causes you to block traffic, you can be cited.

Coincidentally, the Californian red light camera system was one of the things examined on last week's "Guts and Bolts" on the History Channel. (Does the History channel show any actual history any more?)

As an expat Aussie, I was interesed in the differences between the CA system and that used back home...

The system used in Oz uses sensors located after the stop line, which are activated 0.5 seconds after the light turns red. If you enter the intersection any later than that, you get a photograph in the mail.

The Californian system uses sensors before the stop line, which are activated when the light turns red. They measure the speed of an approaching vehicle, and use some sort of magic formula to determine whether you're travelling too fast to be able to stop before you reach the stop line. If not, *flash*, your photo's in the mail.

The Australian system seems to me to be a lot less prone to error or legal challenge.

Originally posted by Rick
Do not enter an intersection, even when the light is green, unless there is enough space to completely cross before the light turns red. If heavy traffic causes you to block traffic, you can be cited.

My understanding is different - if you enter an intersection to make a turn, and have to wait for oncoming traffic/pedestrians/whatever to clear before you can complete your turn, then when the light turns red you actually have the right of way to complete your turn before cross-traffic with the green light can proceed.

Regards,
Gordon

Originally posted by Gord96BRG
My understanding is different - if you enter an intersection to make a turn, and have to wait for oncoming traffic/pedestrians/whatever to clear before you can complete your turn, then when the light turns red you actually have the right of way to complete your turn before cross-traffic with the green light can proceed.

Regards,
Gordon Originally posted by Rick
Do not enter an intersection, even when the light is green, unless there is enough space to completely cross before the light turns red. If heavy traffic causes you to block traffic, you can be cited.

I did not write the pharagraph above. It is a quote from the DMV.

Thanks folks. I guess traffic tickets generate just about as much angst as parking tickets.

WaynesOsworld -- not all the camera'd intersections have short yellows. In fact the yellow for going straight is the normal 3 seconds or so. Also the yellow at a camera'd intersection by my office is 3 seconds for both left turn and straight.

I'm going to borrow a friend's video camera and film the yellow at that particular intersection. Then film the camera'd light by my office with the normal duration.

Kamala -- Special thanks for reference to the code section and the times/speed table.

Red light tickets are $271 here in CA so paying it may be an option if I can confirm no points. Not chump change, but may not be worth the trouble fighting it.

Rick -- I kept going when the light turned yellow because if the yellow was of normal duration, I would have been in the intersection. If I had hit my brakes and the light was the normal time, the guy in back of me wouldn't have been very happy and possibly would have hit me. I wasn't barreling down the lane trying to beat the light - I was sitting in a long line about six cars back from the light. I was probably going about 15 miles per hour when I hit the intersection.

It's my understanding that in CA, if the front of your car passes the second line of the crosswalk before the light turns red, you can legally proceed through the intersection.

Originally posted by Rick
Do not enter an intersection, even when the light is green, unless there is enough space to completely cross before the light turns red. If heavy traffic causes you to block traffic, you can be cited. Originally posted by Gord96BRG
My understanding is different - if you enter an intersection to make a turn, and have to wait for oncoming traffic/pedestrians/whatever to clear before you can complete your turn, then when the light turns red you actually have the right of way to complete your turn before cross-traffic with the green light can proceed. These two statements are complimentary, not contradictory. Yes, you can enter the intersection and wait for oncoming traffic and pedestrians before making your left turn, but you cannot enter the intersection if there is not enough space for you to exit in your intended direction(i.e. if the traffic is already banked up in the street to the left in your case).

Originally posted by eccles
These two statements are complimentary, not contradictory. Yes, you can enter the intersection and wait for oncoming traffic and pedestrians before making your left turn, but you cannot enter the intersection if there is not enough space for you to exit in your intended direction(i.e. if the traffic is already banked up in the street to the left in your case).

That makes sense - dman, I hate legalese! ;)

Regards,
Gordon

This rule seems to vary from state to state. For example, the Oct-98 printed edition of the Illinois Driver's Manual "Rules Of The Road" says: "If you enter an intersection when the light is green, you may finish your turn even though the light turns red" (Chapter Three: Traffic Laws - Right-Of-Way).
On the other hand the California Driver Handbook 2002 (external link verified Jul-02) says: "Do not enter an intersection, even when the light is green, unless you can get completely across before the light turns red. If you block the intersection, you can be cited." (Laws And Rules Of The Road - Traffic Control At Intersections; checked Jul-02).