http://www.finishlineperformance.com/pdf/rx8/bulletin/01-014-08-1924.pdf

I wonder if that spray can is actually Seafoam's Deep Creep...

http://www.seafoamsales.com/images/Deep-Creep-small.jpg

thanks kevin- just saw that. will be adding the pdf to teh sticky thread in just a moment.

its a pretty thorough procedure for diagnosing any power stumble of loss of power issue.


notice its for 04-08 so they are still seeing some issues with newer models or they just want to get it covered prior to the 09 changes

You can move, edit delete this if you want. Makes me wonder about doing a Seafoam cleaning like Jeff mentioned.

The new calibration also has slightly different ignition timing as I noted elsewhere.

I believe they will be retarding the timing.

Wow, and I was just thinking of looking up the thread and cleaning with Sea Foam myself.

Why would one not want to put a T fitting on two hoses and clean both ports at the same time?

Good thing to note is:

They do not want you to drive more than 45mph and accelerate quiclky.

Must be to prevent Sea Foam creep into the Cat canverter, thus destroying on prematurely ending its life real soon.

What is really amazing is the whole procedure does what we have been saying for two years.

I just posted in the Aussy forum two days ago that we were doing the same thing in the states. Mis-diagnoises and then an engine replacement.

Does this scare anyone else but me?

"Poor rotor sealing of rotor chambers due to worn apex seals. This may be caused by lack of metering oil lubrication during high ambient air temperature conditions."

Worst case scenario if they've become worn. But no self respectin' RX8 clubber, especially a Rotary god, would let it get that far (e.g. pre-mix in harsh environments and/or the 'emission recall' flash and an occasional de-carbonizing fuel additive*). No worries.

* http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUpTechGas.htm

* http://www.gumout.com/products.asp?products=1_4

Does this scare anyone else but me?

"Poor rotor sealing of rotor chambers due to worn apex seals. This may be caused by lack of metering oil lubrication during high ambient air temperature conditions."

I believe they will be retarding the timing.

No, they advanced the trailing timing.

They reduced the timing split to 5° across the board except at maximum load and heavy load at very low RPM, where it is 10° - 15°.
It used to be 15° - 20° in most of those same ranges.
They probably could have gone all the way to 0° in the mid-throttle spots. I'm not sure why they didn't, other than to permit the use of crappy gas.

Does this scare anyone else but me?

"Poor rotor sealing of rotor chambers due to worn apex seals. This may be caused by lack of metering oil lubrication during high ambient air temperature conditions."

Yes it does. I thought the along the same lines as Zoom: problem still NOT solved. There was also mention of poor lube during start up - which scares me even more. Possibly explaining why we've seen plenty of engine replacements in areas that are not deserts??

. . . notice its for 04-08 so they are still seeing some issues with newer models or they just want to get it covered prior to the 09 changes

will we all be getting letters in the mail for this recall?

^ It's not a recall, it's Technical Service Bulletin. You have to complain of "loss of power" to have the TSB applied to your car.

Bulletin MSP16 is pretty clear that it applies to EVERY 04-08 car within the VIN range. The other two are symptom dependent.

Well, at least we have a formalized procedure for de-carbonizing the engine :)

I assume

"...revised PCM calibration is available which increases
metering oil lubrication during high ambient air temperature conditions."

refers to the flash applied with the previous recall, since it isn't directly referenced otherwise?

refers to the flash applied with the previous recall, since it isn't directly referenced otherwise?

No. That was "T".
The new one is "U" or "V", depending on where you live.

We have to look at it as the exotic it is and hope they keep taking care of us because we Love the Rotary! There is so much to learn yet! D I...cant wait for the next thing... I bought my first one in '71 and have not had to pay for a engine yet.

I'm confused.. Is there now a new updated pcm reflash for all models? I got my '05 reflashed to "G" on Jan 3. Is my car protected? Is this basically an official mazda thumbs up for premixing?

Edit: Nevermind. I should be upgraded to H it seems like in the tsb. Guess I'll be "upgrading" my pcm. Still may start premixing anyway, though. Thanks

For those wondering:

2004
M/T - All N3Z2-18-881U SW-N3Z2EU000 - U flash
A/T - All N3Z1-18-881V SW-N3Z1EV000 - V flash
2005
M/T - Calif. N3ZD-18-881H SW-N3ZDEH000 - H flash
A/T - Calif. N3ZC-18-881J SW-N3ZCEJ000 - J flash
M/T - Fed. N3ZB-18-881H SW-N3ZBEH000 - H flash
A/T - Fed. N3ZA-18-881J SW-N3ZAEJ000 - J flash
2006-2008
M/T - Calif. N3M1-18-881K SW-N3M1EK000 - K flash
A/T - Calif. N3M2-18-881M SW-N3M2EM000 - M flash
M/T - Fed. N3M5-18-881K SW-N3M5EK000 - K flash
A/T - Fed. N3M6-18-881M SW-N3M6EM000 - M flash

Wow, and I was just thinking of looking up the thread and cleaning with Sea Foam myself.

Why would one not want to put a T fitting on two hoses and clean both ports at the same time?

Good thing to note is:

They do not want you to drive more than 45mph and accelerate quiclky.

Must be to prevent Sea Foam creep into the Cat canverter, thus destroying on prematurely ending its life real soon.

What is really amazing is the whole procedure does what we have been saying for two years.

I just posted in the Aussy forum two days ago that we were doing the same thing in the states. Mis-diagnoises and then an engine replacement.


was posting this curiousity in the other issues&problem thread. didn't get much help tho...
i did do the test-drive procedure, but need to double check if i followed the right steps. but did keep under 3k rpm for 20 mins city drive, brought up to 8k rpm. idle for 1min and see if idle speed drops under 700...

this was stated somewhere in the 2nd bulletin 01-014-08 iirc. and its for actual customer complaint on lack of power. i'd only quickly ran this procedure... but i think i'll feel much safer when i get the new revised flash. i must've been lucky cause i've premixed since the first mile its been in my belonging.

btw, its good someone actually made a new thread on this. i wasn't getting much info or help on this subject in the older threads. keep coming with the feed-backs and comments.

Bulletin MSP16 is pretty clear that it applies to EVERY 04-08 car within the VIN range. The other two are symptom dependent.

*so catch me on this if i'm wrong peoples:
-so that means 01-013-08 SHOULD be set and updated with the pcm reflash for model cars 2004-08. (mine being the "K" flash for '07 6mt)
-whereas 01-014-08 is for testing procedures for customers who brings their car in that are experiencing problems... where they will do carbon removal; test drive procedure; and sensor volt tests... and engine replacements for these tests are dependent on results???

so yeah... my car may not be the worst due to my premixing. either way, it seems like some kinda long break-in procedure. and i'm still very eager for the flash as i've been wondering why my dip stick hasn't been moving much.

No. That was "T".
The new one is "U" or "V", depending on where you live.

Edit, nevermind I didn't realize there was more than one bulletin.

So what if I never to to Mazda for "regular maintenance or repair"... Can I just call to get the MSP reflash?

Don't need the U flash with the AP unit!

:)
:)

Don't need the U flash with the AP unit!

:)
:)

That's true.
Not everyone wants that option, but it is a good one - especially if you are off warranty or don't have a useful dealership nearby.

...especially if you are off warranty or don't have a useful dealership nearby.

This is my situation, I'll be ordering an AP in the next couple of weeks.

Is this basically an official mazda thumbs up for premixing? Where do you get that? The TSBs explain—in great detail—what needs to be done. In fact, in one of them, a specific engine cleaner is mentioned, along with incredibly specific instructions on how it's to be used. In the 35 pages of the three new TSBs, do you see the word "premix" mentioned? Even once?

A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.

That tells me something.

1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.

They might have thought of that 5 years ago.

Poor sealing of rotor chambers due to worn apex seals. This may be caused by lack of metering of oil lubrication during high ambient air conditions.

How much more of an admission of culpability do you expect from Mazda?

Where do you get that? The TSBs explain—in great detail—what needs to be done. In fact, in one of them, a specific engine cleaner is mentioned, along with incredibly specific instructions on how it's to be used. In the 35 pages of the three new TSBs, do you see the word "premix" mentioned? Even once?

A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.

That tells me something.

Mazda will never directly say anything about premixes, cuz its not part of their job. its up to the end-user to do it at their own risk, just like 5w20/30/40 thing.

I think Mazda's TSB support RG's earlier idea about what is going on with our Renesis. Not enough lube results in early death of Apex seals. Look at those Apex seals from expo's engine, it looks freaking nasty for a 110K NA rotary engine.

This is like what the 3rd or 4th time that Mazda increased the OMP's injection rate for Renesis, what does that tell us ? They are still trying.

Mazda knows best about making Rotary, I guess so. But does Mazda knows all ? I doubt it.

I look around forums all over the world and I got into these conclusion :
1. In Japan, they dont even have as many *new* flashes as us, most people use at least 0w35 (yeah I know weird)
2. If you use 5w20 in Japan for Rotary, regardless of generation, people will think you're crazy.
3. Almost all rotaries in Japan use Full Synthetic oil.
4. Almost all of them premix.

I had my 2005 6MT flashed to "H" and it does run better than before. The 4-7k range feels much better and idle stability has improved. I wont make any "Butt Dyno" claims. I will however be going to the dyno soom and am optomistic.:eyetwitch

Where do you get that? The TSBs explain—in great detail—what needs to be done. In fact, in one of them, a specific engine cleaner is mentioned, along with incredibly specific instructions on how it's to be used. In the 35 pages of the three new TSBs, do you see the word "premix" mentioned? Even once?

A few facts:
1) Mazda wants your engine to last as long as possible. Having to replace your engine is bad. Bad for you. Bad for Mazda.
2) If there are things that can be done to help make your engine last longer, Mazda will make those things known. Even if they're an inconvenience. Like having to drag your car to the dealer for a new flash.
3) If the new TSBs wanted you to premix, they would use the word "premix" somewhere in the 35 pages. At least once, if not several times. (That's how language works.) What's more, Mazda would explain, in tedious detail—and with multiple illustrations—what to premix with, how to premix, and when to premix. Yet there's no mention of premix in 35 pages. Not one mention.

That tells me something.

Others have given their opinion on your specific points, however I will mention 1 thing.

Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.

-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --

Even if Mazda knew/knows/discovered that premixing is the best option for 2004 to 2008 Renesis engines, they wouldn't mention it because of that fact. People cant be bothered with such complications.

So they do what they can, reflash with more oil pumping through the OMP, redesign the engine, water pump, oil pump, more oil injectors etc...

Everyone is right, those TSB's are the best we'll get to Mazda admitting the engine needs more lubrication, and for us the best option is premixing.

Others have given their opinion on your specific points, however I will mention 1 thing.

Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.

-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --

Even if Mazda knew/knows/discovered that premixing is the best option for 2004 to 2008 Renesis engines, they wouldn't mention it because of that fact. People cant be bothered with such complications.

So they do what they can, reflash with more oil pumping through the OMP, redesign the engine, water pump, oil pump, more oil injectors etc...

Everyone is right, those TSB's are the best we'll get to Mazda admitting the engine needs more lubrication, and for us the best option is premixing.

Just to expand on this point, at miata.net a common complaint against the RX-8 is the need to check and possibly add oil, even though the oil is injected through design and not because of bad sealing. Yet, some supposed car guys can't be bothered to check their oil, and if they can't, I really wonder what that means for the rest of the population. Keep in mind there's not enough rotorheads out there to be the sole source of support for this engine. If the need to check and add oil is already bringing the RX-8's reputation down, then telling people they need to premix would basically be signing the death warrant of the rotary.

I'm a new rotary owner and I am premixing with Idemitsu. I had never even heard of doing this before, but it does not bother me one bit. I love the car and realize it is unique and requires special attention. Based on what I've read, you'd have to be in denial to not premix. I toss in about 4oz per tank when the light comes on, and so far average about 210 mile range, hard driving.

I'll be switching to 10w30 at 3000 miles.

Based on what I've read, you'd have to be in denial to not premix I thought about premixing. But when I emailed Idemitsu about it, they said I shouldn't do it for a stock, non-raced car.

I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.

I'm not saying premix is bad; I just don't believe it's necessary for an owner who regularly checks oil level, has a bone stock car, doesn't race, and changes oil every few months.

I think only a tiny percentage of 8 owners premix. If premixing were, in fact, necessary for normal engine life, the 8's reliability rating would clearly suffer in long-term road tests (Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com) and in Consumer Reports. But its reliability is generally rated "average" compared to all other cars. (Road & Track rated reliability excellent, as I recall.)

I thought about premixing. But when I emailed Idemitsu about it, they said I shouldn't do it for a stock, non-raced car.

I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.

I'm not saying premix is bad; I just don't believe it's necessary for an owner who regularly checks oil level, has a bone stock, doesn't race, and changes oil every few months.

I think only a tiny percentage of 8 owners premix. If premixing were, in fact, necessary for normal engine life, the 8's reliability rating would clearly suffer in long-term road tests (Car and Driver, Road & Track, edmunds.com) and in Consumer Reports. But its reliability is generally rated "average" compared to all other cars. (Road & Track rated reliability excellent, as I recall.)

depends on how you define *average*

To most people, as long as the car can go 100K miles, thats *average/acceptable*

To me : I need at least 200K.

and for me, Dealership is the last place I will go for "tips"

If you want to keep your engine for 100K, you dont really have to premix, but for 200K, Im sure premix is a must.

I reported the K flash update for the '07 car way back in December 2007. They just made this into a TSB NOW?

Read my posting on the ECU sticky.

Instead of Sea Foam I'm wondering about using this stuff... Also anyone think we can get the engine cleaner over the counter?
http://www.re-amemiya.co.jp/hi_power_jet_g/

http://www.re-amemiya.co.jp/hi_power_jet_g/pic/hi_power_jet_g_1.jpg

I just got the flash update!
got my pads changed this morning to!

i switched to royal purple 5w-30
yep yep hopefully my car will feel a little smoother and idle a little better

anyone get the new updated flash??? any comments on how the car felt?

I got the flash back in January 2008.... no difference in feel.

I got the MSP-16 yesterday. All the power is back. Idle is stable again. The car sounds slightly different and winds up to 8K very smoothly. I'm anticipating oil consumption to increase. I was adding about 1/2 quart every thousand miles.

How much more of an admission of culpability do you expect from Mazda?


I want a full confession. A dishonorable discharge and Hari Kary by the top elite.

Then 5,000 bucks off the new 16x for being a loyal customer.

What! :uhh:

How about more kindness at the dealership and no questions asked concerning your car when you take it in for repair regardless of modifications added.

Now that would buy some loyalty!

got the recall done. however, no sticker affixed under the hood indicating flash was done. will try back MNAO for status on if the msp16 was actually performed like stated in the repair order.

how the car feels?: it feels more torquey around mid-range and has some balls when pulling above 7k rpms now. and also even with the weather starting to warm up here in so-cal, the oil temps has stayed low and under 200 even in traffic (RB autometer gauge) it does peep above 200 degrees but thats only a short period and not as high as i've seen before. the temps has obviously came down more that i can notice the difference.
will see if any MPGs improve...

i'm still not convinced on premixing at the high rates some people are doing in here on top of a functioning MOP. Lets face it, the rotary engine normally looses compression and fails for either seal wear or carbon-lock. Over premixing just trades one failure mode for the other.

I prefer something like an oz of FPplus in my tank... adds some lubricity and melts away carbon at the same time. Best of both worlds IMO.

Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.

-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --

That's certainly part of it. The average consumer would begin wondering why there is a Weed-Whacker engine in the car. :lol2: And, even with OMP, I'm sure they want the oil consumption as low as possible so that consumers don't view it as a maintenance hog. It wasn't all that long ago that drivers expected to add oil to their cars regularly. Not anymore. That makes the rotary odd in that respect.

Another equally important factor is emissions. I believe this is why they have struggled with the OMP programming. Most likely they could have better performance and longevity had they been more generous with the oil from the beginning. But oil has to pass through the engine and exhaust. Longer hydrocarbon chains, harder to completely oxidize. End result is particulates -- increased emissions. And you can see that these increases in oil delivery have been very careful. Even this latest talks about an increase *at startup*, and also only under "high" ambient air temperatures. In other words, the increases are carefully targetted. During most normal driving, oil rate stays the same.

That's certainly part of it. The average consumer would begin wondering why there is a Weed-Whacker engine in the car. :lol2: And, even with OMP, I'm sure they want the oil consumption as low as possible so that consumers don't view it as a maintenance hog. It wasn't all that long ago that drivers expected to add oil to their cars regularly. Not anymore. That makes the rotary odd in that respect.

Another equally important factor is emissions. I believe this is why they have struggled with the OMP programming. Most likely they could have better performance and longevity had they been more generous with the oil from the beginning. But oil has to pass through the engine and exhaust. Longer hydrocarbon chains, harder to completely oxidize. End result is particulates -- increased emissions. And you can see that these increases in oil delivery have been very careful. Even this latest talks about an increase *at startup*, and also only under "high" ambient air temperatures. In other words, the increases are carefully targetted. During most normal driving, oil rate stays the same.

and its funny that some people think Mazda never mention the word of *premix* so we never need it ... uh huh ...

People are fuxking lazy as hell at all times, lets just say Mazda finally has the balls to make a tank just for *premix only*(no more engine oil for lube), then start telling buyers that *Hey, you have to add 1 quart of 2 cycle premix into this tank when the warning light is on ...*

What will happen to Rotary ? Im pretty sure it will be gone in the first year cuz no one will buy it.

I know I dont have to eat veggy to stay alive, but if I want to live longer, I need to have some everyday.

Being out of warranty with an '04, am I stuck having to pay for this repair? Especially since it was literally just announced for all models...

Well I got the MSP16 reflash today just to be on the safe side and I didn't realize I was missing so much power?!!? :Eyecrazy: I just thought that was the way the car accellerated. The engine sounds sooo much smoother and getting the up the RPMS is a lot easier. Since this is my daily driver and I can notice a big difference. I just wish I had video of the RPM before and after but like I said I didn't think there was anything wrong with my car so I didn't think much of it.
I was just wondering about this engine cleaning because they did not do it. Do I need it? They recommended it but they wanted to charge me like $176.00. I usually use top tier gas mostly Shell and I redline like every other day or so.

Well I got the MSP16 reflash today just to be on the safe side and I didn't realize I was missing so much power?!!? :Eyecrazy: I just thought that was the way the car accellerated. The engine sounds sooo much smoother and getting the up the RPMS is a lot easier. Since this is my daily driver and I can notice a big difference. I just wish I had video of the RPM before and after but like I said I didn't think there was anything wrong with my car so I didn't think much of it.
I was just wondering about this engine cleaning because they did not do it. Do I need it? They recommended it but they wanted to charge me like $176.00. I usually use top tier gas mostly Shell and I redline like every other day or so.

Engine cleaning? Doesn't exist in the maintenance section of the owner's manual. Sounds like a fancy dealer ripoff for adding fuel system cleaner to your gas tank (something like BG44K, Lucas UCL, Redline SI-1, Techron concentrate, etc.). I wouldn't worry about that "service."

I love my new flash as well, definitely seems to accelerate better (merging on the freeway I was at 90 sooner than I thought, car pulled nicely in 3rd and 4th). Although, my gas gauge moved down about 2-3 ticks after only about 14 miles. I love this car! :)

Mazda will never mention premixing for 1 reason and 1 reason alone.

-- People do not expect to have to go to such trouble to maintain a car. --


Actually, it is a different reason...

Mazda cannot advise you to do anything that would make the car perform outside of that cars model year emmisions standards.

Adding any premix containing oil WILL make the combustion and eventual exhaust not clean enough to meet these standards - why do you think they are so frugal with the OMP oil injection rates in the first place.

Mazda knows that premixing would help engine longevity, their not stupid, they just legally can't tell you do do it!

Engine cleaning? Doesn't exist in the maintenance section of the owner's manual. Sounds like a fancy dealer ripoff for adding fuel system cleaner to your gas tank (something like BG44K, Lucas UCL, Redline SI-1, Techron concentrate, etc.). I wouldn't worry about that "service."
:)

It exists in the TSB, and is not a fuel additive.

Some of you may just be experiencing better accelleration because your trims were probably reset. When I pull my ROOM fuse, I get a good pick-up for the next few days.

It exists in the TSB, and is not a fuel additive.

True, although not in MSP16 TSB, I forgot that older models need the other TSB (Engine Lack of Power, 01-014/08) as well.

is there anyway to tell what flash is on the car? I just picked my car up from the dealer for a engine light and they said it was reflashed. I was looking through the invoice and don't see anything. It was throwing the p0420 code but they just reset and said bring it back it if comes on again, then they will fix it. Car seemed to be running slightly better below half throttle, seemed slightly leaner and smoother.

you need a scanner like hymee's to read the flash level

How much is the HYMEE ?

http://www.mazdaparts.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=A0000-1151625265

279.95

Some of you may just be experiencing better accelleration because your trims were probably reset. When I pull my ROOM fuse, I get a good pick-up for the next few days.


What are these trims and what does the room fuse do? I tried to search for it but nothing came up.

Fuel trims....
read this to give you an better idea:
http://racingbeat.com/PCM.htm

one would think this amounts to a public confession of sorts.
olddragger

Not if they don't actually make it public. IIRC, the good folks at Rosenthal have had to put up with plenty of crap from Mazda for posting these TSBs in the first place. They don't really want them to be public knowledge, and we still make up a very small percentage of 8 owners.

^^ Could be thought of that way, and to add to this, the changes in the '09 engine to verify the MOP problems over the years.

Fuel trims....
read this to give you an better idea:
http://racingbeat.com/PCM.htm

Thanks!:)

Got the updated flash under powertrain today. No difference thus far.

EDIT: Startup when cold seems smoother.

Got the updated flash under powertrain today. No difference thus far.

The local dealer here said I wasn't covered under the extended powertrain warranty (57xxx mi)... but they did the flash at no charge. Felt a bit better in the mid/high range, but it always does after a reset.

The local dealer here said I wasn't covered under the extended powertrain warranty (57xxx mi)... but they did the flash at no charge. Felt a bit better in the mid/high range, but it always does after a reset.

All 04s should still be under powertrain unless they're over 60k miles. When I initially asked when the flash came out I was told that I'd have to pay the labor, but the service manager and I get along so I just called and had it scheduled when he was there. I'd understand if they didn't want to do the other two TSBs under powertrain, but I don't see any reason why they can't update the software. It's 0.3 hours and helps ensure that they won't need to do an engine replacement heh.

All 04s should still be under powertrain unless they're over 60k miles. When I initially asked when the flash came out I was told that I'd have to pay the labor, but the service manager and I get along so I just called and had it scheduled when he was there. I'd understand if they didn't want to do the other two TSBs under powertrain, but I don't see any reason why they can't update the software. It's 0.3 hours and helps ensure that they won't need to do an engine replacement heh.

Yeah, I meant to say that he wasn't going to cover this TSB under the extended PT warranty. He said it was only for mechanical engine and trans issues.

Yeah, I meant to say that he wasn't going to cover this TSB under the extended PT warranty. He said it was only for mechanical engine and trans issues.

Anything emissions related should be covered 8/80 by Fed law. I would think the cat and or a re-flash would fall under emissions.

All 04s should still be under powertrain unless they're over 60k miles. When I initially asked when the flash came out I was told that I'd have to pay the labor, but the service manager and I get along so I just called and had it scheduled when he was there. I'd understand if they didn't want to do the other two TSBs under powertrain, but I don't see any reason why they can't update the software. It's 0.3 hours and helps ensure that they won't need to do an engine replacement heh.

I'm out of warranty too, mine was handled as a recall.

Anything emissions related should be covered 8/80 by Fed law. I would think the cat and or a re-flash would fall under emissions.

you are correct

Anything emissions related should be covered 8/80 by Fed law. I would think the cat and or a re-flash would fall under emissions.

Good point. Luckily, I didn't have to push the issue. The service manager was probably being a salesman so I'd come back in the future.

I also asked the guys at Wayne Mazda, the largest Mazda dealer in the country. They also said I shouldn't premix, and that the engines with problems were mostly '04s and/or engines that had been modded, or their owners had used the wrong oil, not changed the oil on schedule, or had let the oil level get too low.


The service manager at Wayne also believes that compression of 7.9 @ 320RPM is just dandy... :icon_no2: Is it so hard to read the FSM?

As for Mazda, they only need your engine to last for 60k miles then bon voyage...

so how often should the engine cleaner be done?

Of course u can do it as often as you want, u will just throw all the money down the hole.

Do it only if u have problem, or maybe every 20-30 K miles. I know I will do it to mine every 20-30 K miles.

Just plan on changing your oil immediately afterwards.
I'd suggest using your idle vacuum as a gauge.
If you do the procedure and your vacuum immediately goes up, you are done.
If it doesn't, do it a second time.
If it still doesn't go up, your compression issues aren't carbon-related.

Interesting - I assume this is fine if your car has less than 60,000 miles, as it is an engine issue. I prefer it done what it is really hot outside, so this summer is my last chance. I just have to get a real battery before that - the lousy one I got out of one of the numerous TSBs will die for sure after the first rotor procedure :)
My catalyst was changed once a year since the car was new anyway, so this procedure would not make it much worse than that I think. But if you care about your catalyst, do not do this cleaning too often.

PS How will the engine start after the 1 hour soaking when the whole oil film is washed away and the spark plugs are soaked wet? If you do it yourself, I suggest to remove the spark plugs and drain most of the dirty cleaner after the 1 hour soaking - dry and reinstall the plugs, then try to start the car (be prepared to jump started with another vehicle, just in case).

I'm assuming the cleaner is supposed to pull the carbon deposits away from the metal, and carry them away when it is blown out the exhaust as you start the engine. Letting it dry would likely defeat the purpose...

Im gonna buy a can and do it myself as soon as its out (waiting for tommy to sell them)

Lets just hope that it does not cost too much.

I had this done on my Jeep Liberty a few years ago. It definitely cleans house!

I ordered mine already hehehehehehehehehe .....

I had this done on my Jeep Liberty a few years ago. It definitely cleans house!I've used both Sefoam and Mazda's engine cleaner (was given a free bottle) on my Miata before. I think it helps de-carbon, especially if you let it sit in the cylinders overnight, but I've also just used water as well--some say it does just as good a job. Don't know if that's advisable on a rotary but it would emiminate concerns about the effect of the seafoam on the cat, I suppose.

Just plan on changing your oil immediately afterwards.
I'd suggest using your idle vacuum as a gauge.
If you do the procedure and your vacuum immediately goes up, you are done.
If it doesn't, do it a second time.
If it still doesn't go up, your compression issues aren't carbon-related.

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by "using your idle vacuum as a gauge" - how do you measure the amount of vacuum??

tks, :dunce:


EDIT: also - which method is best: water treatment, seafoam, or this mazda cleaner (which I assume is the same as seafoam)?

PS How will the engine start after the 1 hour soaking when the whole oil film is washed away and the spark plugs are soaked wet? If you do it yourself, I suggest to remove the spark plugs and drain most of the dirty cleaner after the 1 hour soaking - dry and reinstall the plugs, then try to start the car (be prepared to jump started with another vehicle, just in case).

Mine started just fine. The Seafoam apparently has enough body to effect a compression seal. At least in these amounts. You will need a healthy battery though, if you follow the Mazda recipe. That's 40 seconds of cranking plus whatever it takes to start the car.

What was meant was to use the change in vacuum pressure at idle to gauge how well the cleaning process removed carbon. Carbon deposits cause additional airflow constriction and therefore lowers vacuum pressure (Boyles' Law; related to venturi action; a gas's volume is inversely proportional to the applied pressure) and in turn an abnormally high idle rpm to compensate. If all goes well you should notice a return to normal idle rpm.

Seafoam or Mazda's similar product is preferred if significant carbon build up.

Pardon my ignorance, but what do you mean by "using your idle vacuum as a gauge" - how do you measure the amount of vacuum??

tks, :dunce:


EDIT: also - which method is best: water treatment, seafoam, or this mazda cleaner (which I assume is the same as seafoam)?

I get the idea, just unsure on how to actively monitor vacuum.

So it's just a matter of eyes & ears on the RPM, with no true "measurement"?

Forum Vendor Rosenthal Mazda just posted the newly available manifold (vacuum) test kit. But otherwise, yes, just a shade tree mechanic's feel for where the rpm is and should be.

thanks. I did see Tommy's mention of the vacuum & cleaning kit being available on his site for this morning. I'll check there, too.

Do you actually have a [suspected carbon buildup induced] loss of power, or are you just being proactive?

If the latter, just use say STP gas treatment every once in awhile (or seafoam in the tank), redline frequently, a quality detergent gasoline e.g. Mobil, and you'll be fine.

Keep in mind that the "loss of power" prescribed treatment is fairly severe, potentially shortening the life of your catalytic converter, and therefore should not be done if not necessary.

Proactive. I hadn't decided to do any of this, but want to understand it well enough to consider it, and do it if I think it's necessary. Shell gas - always. Premix (only recently.)

Mostly my prevention consists of an intentional 16-18 mpg driving style. ;)

As Homer would say ..... I like your style! :)

btw: here's some food for thought; Mother Nature compensates for flow restrictions by simply increasing the flow rate (again, venturi). Why is it then that when a highway reduces from three lanes to two we don't simply do the same? Me and my '8 certainly try, but my [apparently] non-engineer fellow motorists just don't seem to oblige.

Mother Nature is not inconvienced by the little things. Stupidity, for instance. ;)

I ordered everything this morning, the cleaner, the tester, and 4 coils :)

Hmm, Im part of the proactive group too. I dont care if the CAT fails. I can always go back to dealership and tell them to replace it, or just get some aftermarket CAT.

Proactive. I hadn't decided to do any of this, but want to understand it well enough to consider it, and do it if I think it's necessary. Shell gas - always. Premix (only recently.)

Mostly my prevention consists of an intentional 16-18 mpg driving style. ;)

Without premix, I get 18mpg highway :crying:

As Homer would say ..... I like your style! :)

btw: here's some food for thought; Mother Nature compensates for flow restrictions by simply increasing the flow rate (again, venturi). Why is it then that when a highway reduces from three lanes to two we don't simply do the same? Me and my '8 certainly try, but my [apparently] non-engineer fellow motorists just don't seem to oblige.

Unfortunately you are not legally allowed to bump the car in front of you to encourage them to speed up, otherwise we could creeate the same effect :rock:

This reminds me - I heard of a recent research paper about the formation of traffic jams and "harmonic resonance" in the traffic flow (think, when some *** blips his brakes for no reason, and you see the "wave" of brake lights propagate back). Anyone heard anything about this?

This reminds me - I heard of a recent research paper about the formation of traffic jams and "harmonic resonance" in the traffic flow (think, when some *** blips his brakes for no reason, and you see the "wave" of brake lights propagate back). Anyone heard anything about this?


http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html

Got my car back today-Decarb'd, Flashed, and looks like I got new plugs too. It lists:
1 0000-77-A86 ZOOM ENG CLNR
2 N3Y2-18-110 SPARK PLUG
2 0000-18-N3Y1 SPARK PLUG

It also lists the Flash.

I just spent 100 bucks and put new ones in about 6000 miles ago... Oh well, free is free and I am at 58,700 so the plugs could have been charged to me as a wear item. As for performance, I had no time to really drive it much, but idle seemed slightly improved. I will post more tommorow once I ring her out.

http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/amateur/traffic/traffic1.html

Lol.. I'm talking about real science :lol2:

BTW, this reminded me - the other day I was driving down the turnpike and a state trooper was blocking traffic by zig zagging across all 3 lanes of the highway. He created a traffic jam then just left down an exit ramp. WTF?? :spank: :spank:

You guys better stop talking about the new flash gives ya better feeling and stuff !!!!!!

I will flash my car b4 my warranty runs out, just not now, Im still trying to make my RB Flash money's worth.

^ When you do that, it'll be interesting to see how this latest flash compares to the RB flash.

^ When you do that, it'll be interesting to see how this latest flash compares to the RB flash.

The new Mazda flash will inject some more oil b4 the gas comes out. Plus it advance the timming a little bit at startup.

RB Flash is based on Mazda's flash, what RB did was they *lean* the whole RPM range to get more power.

Mazda's flash is like what 14.7:1 ? I forgot.

I dunno ... I got my flash like hmm a year ago ? I WANT TO MAKE MY MONEYS WORTH ! ARGH !

NYC, just askin-why ditch the RB Flash? I wouldn't if I had it already, I'd just keep premixin like I've always done. I think a lot of people are getting more ummphh because of the trims being reset. My car only runs a correction factor of less than 1-2%, (according to the tech who pulled the trim values for me) and I still notice much improved accelleration (esp in 3rd gear) after pulling the ROOM fuse.

The new Mazda flash will inject some more oil b4 the gas comes out.
Good point...

NYC, just askin-why ditch the RB Flash? I wouldn't if I had it already, I'd just keep premixin like I've always done. I think a lot of people are getting more ummphh because of the trims being reset. My car only runs a correction factor of less than 1-2%, (according to the tech who pulled the trim values for me) and I still notice much improved accelleration (esp in 3rd gear) after pulling the ROOM fuse.

Well, I think I will do the MSP16 b4 my bumper to bumper warranty expires, so Mazda will not have any excuse to deny my Powertrain warranty down the road.

My car pulls really strong, even b4 I did RB flash(well of course even stronger with RB flash).

Will see what happens later.

Good point...

Well, I premix so I dont really care about that. :)

but its always good to have more lube.

but its always good to have more lube.


HAHAHA! How true....

HAHAHA! How true....

... What have you been thinking LOL !!!!

I dunno ... I got my flash like hmm a year ago ? I WANT TO MAKE MY MONEYS WORTH ! ARGH !

You can always get an AccessPORT and save the RB flash to the unit and then do whatever.

Am I covered by this TSB if I am off warranty? I do notice some miniscule loss of power in warmer weather.

You can always get an AccessPORT and save the RB flash to the unit and then do whatever.

Well, AccessPORT is not out yet is it ?

Am I covered by this TSB? I do notice some miniscule loss of power in warmer weather.

ALMOST ALL RX-8 are covered, its just that "do u have to pay for it or not"

If u're still in bumper to bumper warranty then just go in , tell them u had powerloss issue last summer, and tell them to do MSP16.

if u're out, no biggie, 2 hours of labor should be more than enough to do the flash and cleaning. (Plus the part, 20 dollar cleaner ?)

I just don't have the equipment to do the flash. I have no freaking clue how to do it in fact.

I just don't have the equipment to do the flash. I have no freaking clue how to do it in fact.

why dont u just bring it into Mazda dealer?

yeah u race I know, who cares? if u dont have any warranty left (or voided), just pay them labor and that 20 maybe 30 dollar can of cleaner. big deal :)

Well, AccessPORT is not out yet is it ?

Are you kidding me? I've been selling them since February!

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=140117

You can always get an AccessPORT and save the RB flash to the unit and then do whatever.

You can use the accessport to simply store the map that you had on your vehicle? Without loading the AP map into the PCM?

Are you kidding me? I've been selling them since February!

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=140117

god damn it, my bad, I always forgot to read that thread :(

700 bux ... jesus, if I knew this earlier I would of bought this first instead of the Autoexe under brace ...

hmm, shit so much money to spend ... I will get it as soon as I have the cash :)

You can use the accessport to simply store the map that you had on your vehicle? Without loading the AP map into the PCM?

No, you load an AP map when you store the map that is on the AP.
But you can load the most current OE map. It comes with the AP.

god damn it, my bad, I always forgot to read that thread :(

700 bux ... jesus, if I knew this earlier I would of bought this first instead of the Autoexe under brace ...

hmm, shit so much money to spend ... I will get it as soon as I have the cash :)

tard!!!!

stop hating, start reading!!!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :banghead:

beers :beer:

tard!!!!

stop hating, start reading!!!!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :banghead:

beers :beer:

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Some of you may just be experiencing better accelleration because your trims were probably reset. When I pull my ROOM fuse, I get a good pick-up for the next few days.

its been a week and I'm still feeling the power... should it take this long? It could be that my 8's flash was out of date in the first place so it's just playing catch up.
Never the less it feels like a whole new car now.:lol:

its been a week and I'm still feeling the power... should it take this long? It could be that my 8's flash was out of date in the first place so it's just playing catch up.
Never the less it feels like a whole new car now.:lol:

becuz they cleaned ur engine.

Got my flash done. Ive noticed slight changes.. for one my car starts up right away! yeah! also the gas smell is gone for the most part..

why dont u just bring it into Mazda dealer?

yeah u race I know, who cares? if u dont have any warranty left (or voided), just pay them labor and that 20 maybe 30 dollar can of cleaner. big deal :)

The local Mazda dealer's a cock. Last time I was gonna pay him for a stupid spark plug swap, they tried charging me $300. WTF? I did it myself for 80 bux. They were saying the plugs themselves cost $120 total too.

The local Mazda dealer's a cock. Last time I was gonna pay him for a stupid spark plug swap, they tried charging me $300. WTF? I did it myself for 80 bux. They were saying the plugs themselves cost $120 total too.

Think of this, I got a Brand new Exedy Clutch, Pressure Plate, Clutch Alignment tool, Throwout bearing and a packet of grease for 170 bux on Ebay, Mazda sells the same thing for over 400. Its the same clutch but with Mazda's name cost more than double.

Thats how Mazda make money.

they want to charge you 120 bux for plugs, thats pretty typical, but 180 bux for labor? Get the fuxk outa here, I dont even need to take my wheel off and I can swap all 4 plug in less than an hour.

Its like that, thats probably why dealership hates me.

Or You can get MM's AccessPORT and load the newest map yourself. Yes Its expensive, but AccessPORT itself is worth the price.

Its raining all day here, but further driving seems to support a general increase in smoothness (attribute that to carbon removal), but no serious umphh. Maybe a slight increase in the intesity of port actuations, but nothing that is major. Since mine got new plugs along with the decarb and flash, I really can't say what helped more.

Well im a new 04 rx8 owner that i bought a couple days ago from a ford dealership, they did not have the equip or know how on the flash msp16, so i came home from another state with the car and called my local mazda dealer and have an appt for tomorrow morn at 10:30am for them to apply the msp16 to my car at no charge as the car is still under warranty till 8-27-08.
The car only has 19k orig miles on it and is in near mint condition.
I did goto carfacts when i furst gotit and it had 16 entries but they wanted 24.95 for the detail of those entries so i said i will wait and ask the dealer when i take it to them, so i called this morn and set up the appt for the reflash and he asked for the vin to make sure it was one of the ones that would need the flash of msp16, and of course it is, so while i had him on the phone while my car info was on his pc screen i asked him about the 16 entries i seen on carfax and he said it was towed 2x,s for flooding in late 04 and some other minor issues.
I want to get a more detailed printout when i take it in tomorrow and he will do it for me hehe.
Anyway as i said im new to rotaries so i honestly dunno if my car is ruuning as it should or not, it idles arond 700rpm and is maybe a little rough on the idle, it seems to start ok from a cold start also.
Also it is a little sluggesh from s dead start even with near full throttle up and until the rpm,s reach 4k and then it literally just about throws you way into the seat and yur immediatly doing 90mph lol.
As i said i dunno whats normal or not but i just love the way it drives.
I will reply back here to this thread with my results if any or no differences after the flash of my car when i get back.

Is there any special things i should say to them or ask for while its still under warranty?

^ bad dealership, bad! How could a Ford dealer tell you they couldn't check? BS.

Anyway, check the Rosenthal site (finishlineperformance.com) and download the recalls. Make sure those have been done. I think it's 3 for the 04 8, but I'm not 100% sure on that since I have an 05. They should be listed on the carfax, and your dealer can tell you either way, so it's not too big a deal. If there's a recall (note: not tsb, but recall) that was not done you should report the ford place you bought it from. There's no excuse for that, as ford has access to all the info anyway.

The power is all in the 6-9k range, so that sounds normal.

^ bad dealership, bad! How could a Ford dealer tell you they couldn't check? BS.

Anyway, check the Rosenthal site (finishlineperformance.com) and download the recalls. Make sure those have been done. I think it's 3 for the 04 8, but I'm not 100% sure on that since I have an 05. They should be listed on the carfax, and your dealer can tell you either way, so it's not too big a deal. If there's a recall (note: not tsb, but recall) that was not done you should report the ford place you bought it from. There's no excuse for that, as ford has access to all the info anyway.

The power is all in the 6-9k range, so that sounds normal.

If its 04 and never did any recalls, there should be 3.

Anyway, as soon as the OP gets to the dealership, tell them to do MSP16, and most important is the Engine no start TSB, which should give u a new faster spinning starter (about 300rpm+/-) and a new battery.

MSP16 will cover the 4206f recall flash, so just MSP16 will be fine.

Take some time and read all TSB. most of the applies to 04.

If its 04 and never did any recalls, there should be 3.

Anyway, as soon as the OP gets to the dealership, tell them to do MSP16, and most important is the Engine no start TSB, which should give u a new faster spinning starter (about 300rpm+/-) and a new battery.

MSP16 will cover the 4206f recall flash, so just MSP16 will be fine.

Take some time and read all TSB. most of the applies to 04.

Kewl thanks guys,,, so you say they should be giving me a new starter and new battery?:crazy:

TSBs are not necessarily free. They are covered on vehicles that have complaints about the particular issue for that TSB. ie - if you have the problem they should cover it. Recalls by law should have been checked and completed before the dealer sold you the car.

got this done today. it feels smoother, but i'll let you know in the coming few days. i havent driven it enough to really guage a difference. my dealer treated this as a recall and gave me no hassle.

EDIT: 2005 6MT. 10k miles (its a baby) the last flash was the emission recall flash.

What year is your car and what was your previous flash?

Kewl thanks guys,,, so you say they should be giving me a new starter and new battery?:crazy:

Yes sir.

Tell them *it took years b4 my car can start, starter seems to be slow, or maybe weak battery?*

The above trick will work ONLY if they never did the TSB b4

I did goto carfacts when i furst gotit and it had 16 entries but they wanted 24.95 for the detail of those entries so i said i will wait...

Congrats on the new purchase.

However, being too cheap to spend $25 when buying a new car - especially when there are 16 entries??? :dunce:

:rofl: someone had to say it! lawdy knows that was the first thing I thought.

If its 04 and never did any recalls, there should be 3.

.

4-

1. Transmission Vibration Dampner
2. Control arm check for part that can break
3. Install blanket over fuel tank so idiots that rev it forever while sitting still dont catch the car on fire. also a flash that cuts teh revs if it revs in neutral too long

4. The last one for the Vacuum check/replace engine stuff

I just got a notice in the mail stating the new flash is a recall.

I called the dealer and they insist it is a recall not a TSB

I did a heavy seafoam enima Friday night, still pulling a less than desirable 15 in/hg vacuum @ 850 rpm idle :sad: haven't located a local rotary compression tool yet for the final analysis

I just got a notice in the mail stating the new flash is a recall.

I called the dealer and they insist it is a recall not a TSB


What? are you serious? I guess I will un-install the AP tune before I go in and get this done. One thing nice about the AP is that I will always have my custom tune with me.

I just got a notice in the mail stating the new flash is a recall.

I called the dealer and they insist it is a recall not a TSB

What? are you serious? I guess I will un-install the AP tune before I go in and get this done. One thing nice about the AP is that I will always have my custom tune with me.

I never got any mail.

Hmm, the TSB never said its recall, its just *if they come in, update it* kind of thing :(

fwiw:

WARRANTY INFORMATION
NOTE:
• This warranty information applies only to verified customer complaints on vehicles eligible for warranty
repair. Refer to the Warranty Wizard for warranty term information.
• Additional diagnostic time cannot be claimed for this repair.

My card is pink and it says I have a recall out standing. The service writer insists its this and it is not a TSB.

It looks like I will have to take it in so I'm on record of getting it done.

Need to make sure my warrenty is covered.

A friend of mine just had his rotor crack at 90k and got a new motor so...............

I'm going to play along and get it done.

Can you scan it or take a photo? We're all curious.

I was told it's a TSB, but they did it for free since it fell under the emissions warranty coverage which goes up to 80k.

I did notice that my car wasn't a huge fan of the reflash at first once it was done. The first two times I started the car when trying to leave the dealership it died. After that for the first 30 miles or so when I'd push the clutch in it'd try to do the same thing. After that it's been fine, though. Another local RX-8 that had the reflash done did the same thing.

I just checked my profile at Mazdausa.com. It says there is a recall for the car that I don't recall seeing there 3/26/08 when I entered in some maintenance I'd done.

"There is a recall concerning: * RX-8 - Engine Lack Of Power"

There is no further information.

I just checked my profile at Mazdausa.com. It says there is a recall for the car that I don't recall seeing there 3/26/08 when I entered in some maintenance I'd done.

"There is a recall concerning: * RX-8 - Engine Lack Of Power"

There is no further information.
It's probably the update to the PCM. Just take it to the dealer, they will reflash the computer.

I Only Have 750 Miles On My Car But I Made An Appointment To Have The Car Re-flashed Monday. That Rotor Seal Failure Part Had Me Concerned!

I just checked my profile at Mazdausa.com. It says there is a recall for the car that I don't recall seeing there 3/26/08 when I entered in some maintenance I'd done.

"There is a recall concerning: * RX-8 - Engine Lack Of Power"

There is no further information.

Hmm ... I just checked mine I have the same thing ...

Well if its really a *recall*, then Mazda should've send a recall notice to ALL of us.

but nope, nothing from Mazda, its been what 2-3 weeks since the *Suppose to be TSB* came out ?

If you go to the service bulletins at Rosenthal and open the MSP-16 bulletin, it specifically states that any 8 produced between April 10, 2003 through November 9, 2007 is affected. The MSP is to be performed whenever an 8 is brought in for routine servicing or with a lack of power complaint. I guess that eventually anyone in the applicable VIN range will be getting a postcard. On the other hand, you can always go in for an oil change and request the MSP and it is not a chargeable cost to the owner.

Give it time. 2-3 weeks for a mailed recall notice is short.

Also, as I've said, unless it's already hot where you are, this is NOT something that must be done immediately:

"Some 2004-2008 RX-8 vehicles may experience a lack of engine power and/or low/rough engine idle speed in high ambient temperatures. A revised PCM calibration is available which increases metering oil lubrication amount during engine start and changes ignition timing control during high ambient temperature conditions."

I live in So Cal. I just had my 2005 done 45 min ago. My car is one of those lucky one that does not giving much troubles. I do drive the crap out of it though! Initial observation compare to prior is not much different. I will find out more in a couple of days if this new flash will help since the weather forecast that So Cal will be hot in the next day or so up to 90F, they said.

Also, as I've said, unless it's already hot where you are, this is NOT something that must be done immediately:

"Some 2004-2008 RX-8 vehicles may experience a lack of engine power and/or low/rough engine idle speed in high ambient temperatures. A revised PCM calibration is available which increases metering oil lubrication amount during engine start and changes ignition timing control during high ambient temperature conditions."

More like Mazda is trying to band aid the problem. to prevent more Apex seals from wrapping.

meh, I premix, I dont really care about this "recall/update"

I wait b4 my warranty expires.

Its good they are forcing the issue but a recall loose bad for resale.

I probably should complain of lak of power and get the TSB cleaning done.

Can I teust them to do it correctly without frying the CAT?

Any damage done may not be seen for months or years depending upon how much you drive.

As far as I know any recall notice is going to come to you directly from Mazda, not your local dealer. So either their records show you missed some previously issued recall, or they are confused about this latest msp.

As far as I know any recall notice is going to come to you directly from Mazda, not your local dealer. So either their records show you missed some previously issued recall, or they are confused about this latest msp.

No, no. I checked on the Mazda web site, and the engine lack of power MSP from 3/14 is a recall. I think that the dealer is probably being proactive in trying to get the car in. Good on the dealer.

yea when I called in a few days ago about other issues, they told me theres a new recall I need to have taken care of as well........ good job stealership??

Question (I have searched and will search more, but I'm pressed for time right now since I'm waiting for a call back from the dealership): should the 2nd "Lack of Power" TSB (014/08 - with the de-carb service, etc.) be done if the car is experiecing lack of power and is it covered by the 60000 mile powertrain warranty? I can't see why it shouldn't be, but my car is a the dealership right now and all they will do is the MSP16 TSB and are refusing to do the other.

Question (I have searched and will search more, but I'm pressed for time right now since I'm waiting for a call back from the dealership): should the 2nd "Lack of Power" TSB (014/08 - with the de-carb service, etc.) be done if the car is experiecing lack of power and is it covered by the 60000 mile powertrain warranty? I can't see why it shouldn't be, but my car is a the dealership right now and all they will do is the MSP16 TSB and are refusing to do the other.

MSP16 covers the engine cleaning part, IF THE CUSTOMER COMPLAINS ABOUT THE LACK OF POWER.

MSP16 covers the engine cleaning part, IF THE CUSTOMER COMPLAINS ABOUT THE LACK OF POWER.

Thanks. From what I read, the MSP16 bulletin (013/08) only covers the PCM reflash. It seems we were miscommunicating and the dealer says that they they have done the other bulletin (014/08), so I'll have to see how this takes care of the problem.

Question (I have searched and will search more, but I'm pressed for time right now since I'm waiting for a call back from the dealership): should the 2nd "Lack of Power" TSB (014/08 - with the de-carb service, etc.) be done if the car is experiecing lack of power and is it covered by the 60000 mile powertrain warranty? I can't see why it shouldn't be, but my car is a the dealership right now and all they will do is the MSP16 TSB and are refusing to do the other.
MSP16 covers the engine cleaning part, IF THE CUSTOMER COMPLAINS ABOUT THE LACK OF POWER.
My local dealer interprets the TSB to mean that the flash should be done first and then if the problem persists the decarbon process wil be done.

I just got back from my dealer, and my favorite service master tech Wayne, who by the way is leaving to start his career in massage! He will be sorely missed.

All I had done was the Zoom Power decarb - that was it. We measured my vacuum at 19-20 inches of mercury! w00t - I have a solid engine after 66,000 miles.

mine was a white card :dunno:

trying to get the "engine lack of power" done tomorrow. had power loss for the 2nd time yesterday - super hot here in austin, a lot of traffic, had severe power loss and miac sounds; let 'em rest o/n and all day today, just went for a brisk drive and it was normal, no noise, great power. def related to ambient temp, the 1st time it happened to me it was super hot too.

i looked at my "owners" page on mazda.com like that other guy and mine says that i'm due for the "engine lack of power" recall/tsb. i'll post back if/when i get it done...

oh - '04, 49k, run 87 gas, manual, no issues up til this...

I never have Loss of power. well except when it misfire (but its just becuz my HKS racing plugs was foul + coils getting old)

Its all good now :) and I start using Mid-grade gas (89) for my last 3 tanks. works fine.

well---i took some of the stuff mazda uses for this service(bought a can from the dealer parts man--good guys) and I sprayed a rotor that i had sitting out that was carboned up pretty good and let it set overnight. I positioned the rotor so that the cleaner would stay on the face and not drain off. i actually filled the depression of the rotor with the stuff
i also did the same with another rotor but used wd 40.
When you spray the mazda stuff it initially foams up and adheres to the surface. Course the wg 40 doesnt.
Conclusion ---no real difference in cleaning power. neither even came close to fully cleaning the rotor face with hard wiping with a shop cloth. Both did clean some but what was left was hard, very hard carbon deposit, that heat(as in running it in an engine) would not have helped to get it off.
it would take multiple cleanings to do that.
my thoughts are that the cleaning is for the seals/springs ONLY , where the carbon is not so thick and if that is the case then frequent cleanings should be done.
olddragger

I'd add that mutliple applications should use a catless midpipe.

I'd recommend unbolting the cat or mid pipe loose from the manifold, pull them apart so that there's a gap between them, and then put something underneath on the floor to catch what comes out

I did this and a ton of liquid poured out, except that I didn't put anything underneath and it all ran out onto the concrete floor :banghead:

I managed to get the flanges about 1" apart and left it that way upon restart rather than pull the whole cat pipe assembly out. I can see how it would otherwise damage a cat. All that liquid would have been flooded the cat and then probably ignited and/or smoked for days afterward had I not let it run out. Most of what did burn off escaped between the gapped flanges with the resulting smoke pouring out from the front area of the car, though some of the smoke still found it's way through the exhaust and out the tips lightly as some of it still managed to pulse it's way through the cat. I'm pretty confident that it didn't cause any problem with the cat doing it this way since the majority escaped out the gapped flanges.

update: took my car in today for "engine lack of power" serv bulletin. couldn't do it, too busy; but here's what he had to say:

first, he wanted me to pay for it (49k, out of warranty in january) b/c even tho i have the ext power train warranty, "the service bulletin isn't a power train issue necessarily". i said bs, the sb came out in march, so it shouldn't be my fault mazda fixes the glitch AFTER my warranty is up. he agreed.

then, after asking more info about my power loss issue, HE brought up engine replacement! so i have an appt next next monday to get a full once over (compression, cat, 40-50 mile test drive by a tech, etc) to see if i need a full engine replacement. i'll let u know when i hear back about it.

i was always hoping i wouldn't need an eng replacement, even tho it's under warranty, b/c i wanted my baby to be on it's original forever, but hey, if they fix it for free, i guess i'll take it!!

EDIT: very important question though -- does anyone know if the reman'd engines FIX the power loss issue??! i.e. water in the taillights, got them replaced with new, "fixed" taillights, so i don't have that issue anymore. but w/ regard to the engine, have they FIXED the problem, or is this a temporary fix, and possibly in another 40 or 50k, i might have the same issue with the reman??? the reman warranty is only 1 year, right?

i have 27k miles on a reman motor. all is well..

beers :beer:


update: took my car in today for "engine lack of power" serv bulletin. couldn't do it, too busy; but here's what he had to say:

first, he wanted me to pay for it (49k, out of warranty in january) b/c even tho i have the ext power train warranty, "the service bulletin isn't a power train issue necessarily". i said bs, the sb came out in march, so it shouldn't be my fault mazda fixes the glitch AFTER my warranty is up. he agreed.

then, after asking more info about my power loss issue, HE brought up engine replacement! so i have an appt next next monday to get a full once over (compression, cat, 40-50 mile test drive by a tech, etc) to see if i need a full engine replacement. i'll let u know when i hear back about it.

i was always hoping i wouldn't need an eng replacement, even tho it's under warranty, b/c i wanted my baby to be on it's original forever, but hey, if they fix it for free, i guess i'll take it!!

EDIT: very important question though -- does anyone know if the reman'd engines FIX the power loss issue??! i.e. water in the taillights, got them replaced with new, "fixed" taillights, so i don't have that issue anymore. but w/ regard to the engine, have they FIXED the problem, or is this a temporary fix, and possibly in another 40 or 50k, i might have the same issue with the reman??? the reman warranty is only 1 year, right?

i have 27k miles on a reman motor. all is well..

beers :beer:

that's good news!! do u remember/know if they specifically said/acknowledged that the reman indeed corrected the issue? i'm excited, getting a new engine with less than 1 yr on my ext warranty ... let's hope they don't screw me!

The real fix is the center oil injector on the '09. So I will be pre-mixing for the first time ever till the next rotary.

^ +1.

S

oh nooooo, pre-mixing is baaaad, baaaad .... :rolleyes:

that's good news!! do u remember/know if they specifically said/acknowledged that the reman indeed corrected the issue? i'm excited, getting a new engine with less than 1 yr on my ext warranty ... let's hope they don't screw me!

premixing stopped the issue with the first engine.. but the damage was done... with the new motor i continue to premix..

not a lot, but enough to be safe..

beers :beer:

Thanks. From what I read, the MSP16 bulletin (013/08) only covers the PCM reflash. It seems we were miscommunicating and the dealer says that they they have done the other bulletin (014/08), so I'll have to see how this takes care of the problem.

Ok, this TSB states that Mazda should perform this procedure on cars they have in their inventory. I don't think it requires a "complaint". Best I can gather from reading this reflash affects startup oil injection (it increases it) and also affects timing as a function of temperature (retards at high temps).

I had this done, and I did so on the basis Mazda wanted it done on the cars dealerships have in their inventory.

My car did not produce huge amounts of the so called "white cloud of doom". Does that mean I had very little carbon? Or we did not let it sit long enough before starting it?

I had my taillights done today and the MSP is listed as a recall on the paperwork.

Damn good question. I think Mazda thought they had the problem of engine failure identified when they did the engine replacement recall with the flash at that time. Obviously that did not do the trick, they are hoping this next flash will help but the real solution is in the 09 with the 3rd oil injector plug. This flash is a patch that Mazda is hoping will keep the engine running for the life of the car or at least through the warranty. Only time will tell.

update:

EDIT: very important question though -- does anyone know if the reman'd engines FIX the power loss issue??! i.e. water in the taillights, got them replaced with new, "fixed" taillights, so i don't have that issue anymore. but w/ regard to the engine, have they FIXED the problem, or is this a temporary fix, and possibly in another 40 or 50k, i might have the same issue with the reman??? the reman warranty is only 1 year, right?

got news for ya--the 3nd injector alone does not solve our problems.
olddragger

This recall, IMHO, is one of the best things Mazda could have done. The increased oil gives us better lubrication to prevent permanent damage. The added carbon buildup due to this additional lubrication can be easily removed using a $20 can of cleaner and an hour of time, giving us a cheap, simple, quick fix that any DIYer can do. All this while allowing us the peace of mind to know that we don't have to rev the sh$# out of the engine(as fun as it is) to remove carbon, causing more wear.. A can of cleaner is cheap.. The process is pretty simple..

Thanks, Mazda!

got news for ya--the 3nd injector alone does not solve our problems.
olddragger Uhh… what problems? I've never had a car more reliable.

Unless you have an 09 that is, then again you still may end up with carbon issues. Only time will tell my friend.

got news for ya--the 3nd injector alone does not solve our problems.
olddragger

Tell you the truth having a car that needs an enema every few years is not my idea of a good solution. I wonder why the RX-7 were not as susceptible to this as the 8s?

This recall, IMHO, is one of the best things Mazda could have done. The increased oil gives us better lubrication to prevent permanent damage. The added carbon buildup due to this additional lubrication can be easily removed using a $20 can of cleaner and an hour of time, giving us a cheap, simple, quick fix that any DIYer can do. All this while allowing us the peace of mind to know that we don't have to rev the sh$# out of the engine(as fun as it is) to remove carbon, causing more wear.. A can of cleaner is cheap.. The process is pretty simple..

Thanks, Mazda!

Tell you the truth having a car that needs an enema every few years is not my idea of a good solution. I wonder why the RX-7 were not as susceptible to this as the 8s?


Because Rx7 was never as wide spread as Rx8 today.

This *Mazda fix* is not really a fix, they're just trying to *see if this will make the problem "less" likely to appear*.

this is what the 4-5th time that Mazda "increased" the OMP rate. its still not enough.

Premix is the *only way* to do this. We know, Mazda knows. But too bad Mazda cant tell people to premix, too many legal issues(and sales might drop dead).

So just premix. or just pray & hope nothing will go wrong.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Because Rx7 was never as wide spread as Rx8 today.

This *Mazda fix* is not really a fix, they're just trying to *see if this will make the problem "less" likely to appear*.

this is what the 4-5th time that Mazda "increased" the OMP rate. its still not enough.

Premix is the *only way* to do this. We know, Mazda knows. But too bad Mazda cant tell people to premix, too many legal issues(and sales might drop dead).

So just premix. or just pray & hope nothing will go wrong.

Yep. +1

MSP16 covers the engine cleaning part, IF THE CUSTOMER COMPLAINS ABOUT THE LACK OF POWER.

really? I complained about lack of power, and didnt mention MSP16 at all. The service tech was the one who immediately said, "good timing, theres a new recall just for that!" Then when I get my car back all they did was reflash the ECU and suggest I do an "induction flush" for 119.95?

really? I complained about lack of power, and didnt mention MSP16 at all. The service tech was the one who immediately said, "good timing, theres a new recall just for that!" Then when I get my car back all they did was reflash the ECU and suggest I do an "induction flush" for 119.95?

If u're still under warranty, that means they tried to rip u off.

Actually, they did rip u off, since they suppose to do the cleaning under warranty.

Well, Just follow my DIY and u will be *SET* in no time. the cleaner cost only 20 bux + a few bux shipping (if thats all u buy)

If u're still under warranty, that means they tried to rip u off.

Actually, they did rip u off, since they suppose to do the cleaning under warranty.

Well, Just follow my DIY and u will be *SET* in no time. the cleaner cost only 20 bux + a few bux shipping (if thats all u buy)

thanks! reading through your diy now!!

I thought that the combine RX-7 sales far out numbered RX-8 sales. I agree with you observation on the oil and as pointed out so does Mazda with the addition of the 3rd oiler.

Because Rx7 was never as wide spread as Rx8 today.

This *Mazda fix* is not really a fix, they're just trying to *see if this will make the problem "less" likely to appear*.

this is what the 4-5th time that Mazda "increased" the OMP rate. its still not enough.

Premix is the *only way* to do this. We know, Mazda knows. But too bad Mazda cant tell people to premix, too many legal issues(and sales might drop dead).

So just premix. or just pray & hope nothing will go wrong.

I thought that the combine RX-7 sales far out numbered RX-8 sales. I agree with you observation on the oil and as pointed out so does Mazda with the addition of the 3rd oiler.

if u talk about the world wide sales then yeah I guess.

but if its just US sales .... *sweat*

the rx8 is a tough car--it is realiable --didnt mean otherwise. it is only when an owner wants it running at its peak ALL the time, or is trying to squeeze a little more out of it, or is tracking etc that certain things become evident.
We forget that centrifulgul (spelling!) force is a major factor in keeping the seals in place and functioning. So the higher rpm you can consistanly mantain the better(as far as the seals and performance is concerned)--however that is not very practical in everyday driving. Heat and gas milage are 2 things that come to mind. Doesnt your car run much better after surviving a track w/e? There is a reason for that. So a 3nd injector does not solve all this. It is good, the electrical mop is good but the "fix" is not there yet.
olddragger

the rx8 is a tough car--it is realiable --didnt mean otherwise. it is only when an owner wants it running at its peak ALL the time, or is trying to squeeze a little more out of it, or is tracking etc that certain things become evident.
We forget that centrifulgul (spelling!) force is a major factor in keeping the seals in place and functioning. So the higher rpm you can consistanly mantain the better(as far as the seals and performance is concerned)--however that is not very practical in everyday driving. Heat and gas milage are 2 things that come to mind. Doesnt your car run much better after surviving a track w/e? There is a reason for that. So a 3nd injector does not solve all this. It is good, the electrical mop is good but the "fix" is not there yet.
olddragger

PREMIX !

PREMIX !

so your engine can die of carbon lock instead of seal wear... :eyetwitch

so your engine can die of carbon lock instead of seal wear... :eyetwitch

u do know that carbon is a by product that came from the Gasoline me and u use everyday right ? -_-

and you do know the more oil you put in the gas, the more carbon you will get (unless your using something like MM oil)... actually i know you do since i believe it was you that posted how horrible your spark plugs looked after a few hundred miles...

and carbon has killed more of our engines then seal wear...

and you do know the more oil you put in the gas, the more carbon you will get (unless your using something like MM oil)... actually i know you do since i believe it was you that posted how horrible your spark plugs looked after a few hundred miles...

and carbon has killed more of our engines then seal wear...

those plugs were racing plugs, its *meant* to foul under street driving conditions.

Plus our *pig rich* fuel mixture ...

I went back to the way I premix, which is about 8oz-12oz now. I just *look* at the plugs couple days ago when I do the tranny fluid swap from RP Maxgear to Redline's MT-90. my plugs looks fine for now. it has about 800 miles on them (the foul HKS plugs had about 1K miles, but its already like crap)

Only time will tell tho.

I just called Tustin Mazda about doing this procedure and they said it would take 20 to 30 minutes. After looking over the service bulletin i saw that step 12 said to let the cleaner soak for at least an hour. After that there is a lot of testing that needs to be done while the engine is idling and driving. There is also a test drive procedure. I called and asked how it could be done so quickly when some steps take so long. The guy told me that the cleaner only needs to be left there for an hour if you have a k&n intake or filter. Also, i asked about the test drive with the sensor hooked up to the car and he said this was unnecessary and i can just drive it normally. Should i take my car there for this service or is this guy a complete crackhead?

The guy told me that the cleaner only needs to be left there for an hour if you have a k&n intake or filter. Also, i asked about the test drive with the sensor hooked up to the car and he said this was unnecessary and i can just drive it normally. Should i take my car there for this service or is this guy a complete crackhead?

Crackhead. Perfect example of a tech who wants to get by with as little work as possible. I wouldn't trust them to air up my tires.

I just called Tustin Mazda about doing this procedure and they said it would take 20 to 30 minutes. After looking over the service bulletin i saw that step 12 said to let the cleaner soak for at least an hour. After that there is a lot of testing that needs to be done while the engine is idling and driving. There is also a test drive procedure. I called and asked how it could be done so quickly when some steps take so long. The guy told me that the cleaner only needs to be left there for an hour if you have a k&n intake or filter. Also, i asked about the test drive with the sensor hooked up to the car and he said this was unnecessary and i can just drive it normally. Should i take my car there for this service or is this guy a complete crackhead?

only an hour when its using K&N intake or filter?

I almost faint when I Saw that line. These ppl are really full of Crap.

U dont have to do the test drive if u're sure ur car has no problem. I have the testing tools, but never use it. One day I will, just not yet.

Do it urself, just follow my DIY, is not hard. u dont even need to jack ur car up :)

Normally i do most work myself but this seems like a lot of work. Also if the dealership is doing it for free shouldnt i just take it in?

If you have a good service department that you trust, then sure. But the bonehead who told you a K&N intake or filter somehow altered the time it takes for cleaner to work and the importance of his mandated procedure is a huge red flag. I wouldn't trust them.

That sucks cuz this is the closest dealership to me. Anyone know any good sevice departments in the OC, near UCI if possible?

update: just took my car in this morning, at 8am, to get a full test to see if the engine needs replacing. i posted a while back, but i had my 2nd lack-of-power issue, took it in to get the tsb, and he said let's do a full check and contact mnao to see if you need a new engine. hopefully i'll hear back tomorrow. he said it would def take o/n. i miss my 8!!

That sucks cuz this is the closest dealership to me. Anyone know any good sevice departments in the OC, near UCI if possible?

Beach Mazda in HB or Tustin.

the rx8 is a tough car--it is realiable --didnt mean otherwise. it is only when an owner wants it running at its peak ALL the time, or is trying to squeeze a little more out of it, or is tracking etc that certain things become evident.
We forget that centrifulgul (spelling!) force is a major factor in keeping the seals in place and functioning. So the higher rpm you can consistanly mantain the better(as far as the seals and performance is concerned)--however that is not very practical in everyday driving. Heat and gas milage are 2 things that come to mind. Doesnt your car run much better after surviving a track w/e? There is a reason for that. So a 3nd injector does not solve all this. It is good, the electrical mop is good but the "fix" is not there yet.
olddragger

You forget................

They redesigned the Rotor to be more oval.

You forget................

They redesigned the Rotor to be more oval.You're talking about the future 16X? The 3rd injector will be available in a couple of months in the 2009 RX-8.

In testing the carbon removal properties of Seafoam, Mazd's stuff, Carb cleaner, and ATF. This is a casual test with an old rotor that has a lot of carbon on it---just applied the stuff and let it sit for an hr---the advanced auto carb cleaner won. Take it for what it is worth.
olddragger

In testing the carbon removal properties of Seafoam, Mazd's stuff, Carb cleaner, and ATF. This is a casual test with an old rotor that has a lot of carbon on it---just applied the stuff and let it sit for an hr---the advanced auto carb cleaner won. Take it for what it is worth.
olddragger

Did you do compression test?

huh?
OD

well my idle vacuum came up slightly after some run in, still lower than I'd like; 17 in/hg

haven't been able to locate a rotary compression tool anywhere except at the stealership and I won't even drive into their lot, let alone touch my RX-8

guess I may have to spring for one of the lower cost digital testers

huh?
OD


Sorry disregard that question.

Team ---call Mazcare--he got one from somewhere.
olddragger

unfortunately we're on opposite sides of the country now

ADVICE

just got a call back from mazda (dealership, not na). they talked to na, and na said that the dealership needs to replace the spark plugs and de-carb FIRST ... THEN do the compression test, and if the numbers are low, put in a re-man.

na said if the comp #s are still low after the de-carb, they will replace the motor and pay for the intial de-carb/spark plugs. if the comp #s are good/better after that, they will not replace the motor, obviously, but I will have to pay for the de-carb/plugs! guy said that'll run about $360. fyi - i'm in my 5th year, only have powertrain warranty left.

so i guess i could clean it out myself, for a fraction of the cost, but i don't think na would "allow" that, saying a certified dealer has to clean it. so i'm between a rock and hard place - don't do it, risk the power loss again, or do it, but risk having to pay $360 in the event that it DOES help my engine. i guess that's not too high, but i'm broke, so it sounds terrible.

the only thing i can think of is to wait it out a bit. i've had 2 power loss's inside 10 months, but i have about 10 more months of powertrain left, so i could wait it out and milk this last year, then take it back in if/when it happens again.

comments? advice? can anyone tell me about the likelihood that the de-carb process will correct the issue??

That sounds shady. Call MNAO and confirm that nonsense. Basically the dealer (and very possibly NA) is saying that despite your complaint that the TSB is supposed to cover, they want you to pay? That's kind of F-d up.


EDIT: Seems like a compression test now would show if you need either. And if the numbers are low and the de-carb clears it up then it was absolutely necessary. If still low you get a new engine. Either scenario seems like the work is warranted and should be covered by the TSB.

yeah, it seemed weird to me too. i asked and he has YET to even do a compression test, so they'll have no way of knowing if it's "better", just if it's good enough to not warrant a re-man.

also, b/c i'm out of warranty, other than powertrain, he told me up front when i first asked that i would have to pay for the tsb, i said bs, but it's probably stemming from that...

That sounds shady. Call MNAO and confirm that nonsense. Basically the dealer (and very possibly NA) is saying that despite your complaint that the TSB is supposed to cover, they want you to pay? That's kind of F-d up.


EDIT: Seems like a compression test now would show if you need either. And if the numbers are low and the de-carb clears it up then it was absolutely necessary. If still low you get a new engine. Either scenario seems like the work is warranted and should be covered by the TSB.

Yeah, you know if there is a low compression test then anything necessary to fix that should be covered by the power train warranty. That seems right to me. Normally, a TSB would have to paid for by the customer, but if you have low compression and you are still under the powertrain warranty, I think that you should have that covered under the extended warranty. I'd argue it.

^^but should the initial compression test be covered? they haven't even done that, na is just telling them to to a de-carb first and (possibly) charge me. i guess i'll find na's # online and call them -- doesn't help i'm out of town right now...

Yup - it really should be covered under P-T warranty. The only reason I can come up with for them to pull this is to prevent people from just saying "power loss" and getting a free cleaning. But even if that's the case it should be a test first that you pay for if it's normal. So you would pay for the test only, no cleaning b/c it would be deemed unnecessary by some measurable means.

There's a chance that the cleaning makes it better, but w/o knowing how bad it is before the test how the f8ck can they then say it wasn't necessary and make you pay?? Did I mention that is sounds shady?? :suspect:

yeah, it seemed weird to me too. i asked and he has YET to even do a compression test, so they'll have no way of knowing if it's "better", just if it's good enough to not warrant a re-man.

also, b/c i'm out of warranty, other than powertrain, he told me up front when i first asked that i would have to pay for the tsb, i said bs, but it's probably stemming from that...They were supposed to have done a compression check today already. Are they now refusing to do this or are they still going to do this today prior to any TSB that they want to charge you for? Definitely call MNAO and ask them if their position is that they only honor their powertrain warranty if maintenance is done by Mazda dealers. Ask for that in writing. I'm not a lawyer but that sounds wrong to me.

yeah, i'll try to call na today.

i don't know - they SHOULD have already done a compression test, they had my car for 2 days already. it sounds like they just took my original complaint (power loss) and just called na directly and said 'what do you want us to do?'

this seems like a COMPLETE waste of time if they don't do a compression test FIRST, to see if my power loss was a fluke or a serious problem...

^ It doesn't sound like that is the issue. They're willing to cover the re-man, but only if the compression is bad after the cleaning.

The story really sounds more like a stealership game, rather than MNAO. You should ask the service manager who they spoke w/a MNAO and then try to talk to that person. Try to clear it up by going through the dealer rep first. But you should absolutely confirm that MNAO really said what the dealer said they said - by talking to MNAO yourself.

Man, that's a lot of 'saids' in one sentence. :eyetwitch

anyone have that number handy? or is this correct, the "customer assistance center" 1-800-222-5500

^ It doesn't sound like that is the issue. They're willing to cover the re-man, but only if the compression is bad after the cleaning.

The story really sounds more like a stealership game, rather than MNAO. You should ask the service manager who they spoke w/a MNAO and then try to talk to that person. Try to clear it up by going through the dealer rep first. But you should absolutely confirm that MNAO really said what the dealer said they said - by talking to MNAO yourself.

Man, that's a lot of 'saids' in one sentence. :eyetwitch


that was a lot of "saids" haha.

good idea. i just think they'd do a compression test first and say 'oh, it's good, just an ambient heat issues, here's ur tsb and keep an eye on it' OR ' whoa, low compression numbers, but we think a de-carb will help, so we'll try that then do another compression test'.

that was a lot of "saids" haha.

good idea. i just think they'd do a compression test first and say 'oh, it's good, just an ambient heat issues, here's ur tsb and keep an eye on it' OR ' whoa, low compression numbers, but we think a de-carb will help, so we'll try that then do another compression test'.


Keep us informed as to what happens.

It is an interesting question since you fall into that small 10,000 mile window where the extended warranty still covers, but the bumper to bumper is over. For me, I have no warranty left, and I am not looking forward to the day that this happens to me.

I will. I'm at a work seminar so it'll be hard for me to call this week. Hopefully i can call later today, or tomorrow during lunch. but i'll definitely post what's going on, not only to help everyone else, but to VENT. ^%$^%&#&!!!


side question: say worst case they won't listen to me, and want me to possibly pay out for that and i refuse ... i'll read up on it but is the de-carb something i can do myself? i could de-carb myself to save money, maybe check my spark plugs myself too, coils even. and maybe even pay for a compression test myself -- all of which should be cheaper than the dealer's $360 fee. Like i said, i still have about 10 months on my p/t warranty, so if that's helps, great, if it doesn't, i could wait it out for 8-10 months and if it happens again, i'm not worse off than i am now ... just thinking "out loud"...

You can do the procedure on your own. You can also buy the official Mazda cleaner and testing kit from Tommy.

Plugs should run ~$20 each and can be done on your own as well. I'm not sure about coils.

There are DIY threads on plugs and de-carb. My guess is there's one for coils, too.

The whole thing just screams dealer scam to me, though. You can ask them to do the compression test first even if you have to pay. It should be less than $200.

yeah, it seemed weird to me too. i asked and he has YET to even do a compression test, so they'll have no way of knowing if it's "better", just if it's good enough to not warrant a re-man.

also, b/c i'm out of warranty, other than powertrain, he told me up front when i first asked that i would have to pay for the tsb, i said bs, but it's probably stemming from that...


So this fellow feels that the engine is not part of the powertrain? :icon_no2:

You can do the decarb and change the plugs yourself. They still owe you a compression check as part of the basic diagnostic they said they would do as part of investigating your warranty claim.

So this fellow feels that the engine is not part of the powertrain? :icon_no2:

the more i think about it, the shadier it seems! he's (they?) saying the de-carb process is not covered ... but it should be because of my complaint of power loss. it's documented at 2 different dealerships now. it's not like i just showed up and say, 'de-carb this bad boy and give me a new engine too.'

anyway, i guess i'll call na directly and take it up w/ them. i told the dealer to just wait until i call him back.

i'm real tempted to just pull the car from them, do the de-carb, plugs, etc. myself, and wait it out, maybe that'll solve the issue -- maybe try to get a compression test too.

They still owe you a compression check as part of the basic diagnostic they said they would do as part of investigating your warranty claim.

I agree - I think they're trying to weasel out of THAT. f@ckers!! thanks for the input guys, i'll post tonight if i get a chance to call, or tomorrow morning if not.

I will. I'm at a work seminar so it'll be hard for me to call this week. Hopefully i can call later today, or tomorrow during lunch. but i'll definitely post what's going on, not only to help everyone else, but to VENT. ^%$^%&#&!!!


side question: say worst case they won't listen to me, and want me to possibly pay out for that and i refuse ... i'll read up on it but is the de-carb something i can do myself? i could de-carb myself to save money, maybe check my spark plugs myself too, coils even. and maybe even pay for a compression test myself -- all of which should be cheaper than the dealer's $360 fee. Like i said, i still have about 10 months on my p/t warranty, so if that's helps, great, if it doesn't, i could wait it out for 8-10 months and if it happens again, i'm not worse off than i am now ... just thinking "out loud"...

Check the Tech section of the forum and don't forget the DIY subsection. There are a couple of threads about decarbing at home, and it doesn't sound that complicated only time consuming.

Plugs are easy to change, but you have to shop around a little. Around $20 is the right price. I got my last set for $12 a plug from WorldPac. Again there is a DIY in the Tech section, but if you pull the driver's front wheel off and put the car on a jackstand, the whole thing becomes pretty self explanatory.

Coils are also easy to yank (make sure you go one at a time or label the plug wires to avoid confusion.) IMHO though, if you don't have a misfire CEL, I think that the wires are better to replace with Racing Beat wires for an improvement.

Being on a budget, I would do the decarb, then the plugs right after, and see if you have an improvement. If it doesn't seem right, then I would look at the more expensive wires then coils.

Best of luck.

...and see if you have an improvement. If it doesn't seem right, then I would look at the more expensive wires then coils.

Best of luck.

Thanks for all the input.

My concern is that my 2 power loss incidents were about 9 or 10 months apart, so if i were to pull my car from the dealer on monday (when i get back in town), and do all those things myself, it might "seem" fine, but then again it always seems fine other than those 2 days. so i won't "know" if it's fine unless i go back and PAY for a compression test. i'm trying to get a hold of na to make THEM pay for a compression test now...instead of making me pay for the damn de-carb process. arg...:banghead:

The only way you will feel comfortable at this point is to get a compression check. Whay you can do when you get some free time after your work obligations slow a little bit is to call around and get competitive bids for a compression test. Don't forget to include independant shops who specialize in Mazda Wankels. I think that you are going to have to pay for that, and it will tell you what to do. If it is bad, then take it to the dealer and tell them you have a bad compression test, and that you expect all work to be covered under the powertrain warranty because of the bad test. If it is good, then try a tune up yourself. Best of luck.

I just came from haviong the latest re-flash done. The car seems to run Much much better! and sooooo smooth now like it does run on double-cream.
The small blips in the idle have dissapeared (only hapened occasionally) and it seems to pull into the higher revs much easier (almost effortless).
Big difference in my car.

Turns out their is a recall still outstanding on her where they'll check the plugs, starter and something else he mentioned that I forgot. Says it is all covered if anything needs replaced.
I was happy one week ago when I first got her, but now that damm grin is back which I can't get rid of.

I just came from haviong the latest re-flash done. The car seems to run Much much better! and sooooo smooth now like it does run on double-cream.
The small blips in the idle have dissapeared (only hapened occasionally) and it seems to pull into the higher revs much easier (almost effortless).
Big difference in my car.

Turns out their is a recall still outstanding on her where they'll check the plugs, starter and something else he mentioned that I forgot. Says it is all covered if anything needs replaced.
I was happy one week ago when I first got her, but now that damm grin is back which I can't get rid of.



Did everyone look at their receipts and see what exactly was done to their car you might have got the de-carbon "TSB" done?

there's a de-carb tsb?? i wasn't aware of that ... and they're STILL trying to get ME to pay for the de-carb?? wow...

update: call in to the dealer to get mnao info, waiting on him to call back...

days at shop (with nothing accomplished): 4

WTF?? Seriously? I was assuming you knew about the de-carb TSB the whole time. :lol:

There are 3 TSBs listed one right after the other - linked here (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/store/pages.php?pageid=11). One is the MSP 'recall' for the reflash and one for 'power loss' and one for 'crank - no start' - I forgot which calls for the de-carb procedure.

That would be why we were telling you it seemed like they were totally trying to scam you.

^^ oh, well i know about those ... sorry. i didn't read through them, so i didn't realize the de-carb was part of the process. it's not so much a "de-carb" tsb as it is a <insert other title here> tsb that involves the de-carb process...

anyway, you're both right, it's in there, so now there's REALLY no reason why i would/should pay for that ... so the scam continues.

they still haven't called me back!!

small possible caveat ... i'm only in the p/t warranty now ... maybe they're thinking i don't qaulify for the tsb w/o paying for it. dumb if you ask me, it's not my fault the tsb came out in march, 2 months after my normal warranty expired! could be the difference between "tsb" and "recall" ... tsb's are voluntary?? although, if i have the known problem, they should fix it for free, period.

small possible caveat ... i'm only in the p/t warranty now ... maybe they're thinking i don't qaulify for the tsb w/o paying for it. dumb if you ask me, it's not my fault the tsb came out in march, 2 months after my normal warranty expired! could be the difference between "tsb" and "recall" ... tsb's are voluntary?? although, if i have the known problem, they should fix it for free, period.Loss of power is definitley part of the powertrain warranty, but some dealers (eg, Flemington Mazda in NJ) will only do the TSB if they actually verify the loss of power symptom. Are there other service departments in your area?

Just 1 question...

I got my pink notice from the dealership today stating that this is indeed a recall. My car is a 2007 GT. I'm going to do it no matter what, but I only have 11k miles on the car so I'm going to 'opt out' of the decarb. Just want the flash.

Here's the real question for everyone (I read all 10 pages and didn't see a distinct answer): Is the RB flash still better, with actual power gains (7.8HP according to them) than this new Mazda flash? If so, I'll have this flash done under warranty then send m ECU to Racing Beat to get THEIR flash. -OR- is this new flash similar to the RB flash with a higher OMP rate? I premix, so I don't care about that. Just wondering if which flash is better and if the RB flash is still worth the $300 now.

Looking for any and all opinions...

Just 1 question...

I got my pink notice from the dealership today stating that this is indeed a recall. My car is a 2007 GT. I'm going to do it no matter what, but I only have 11k miles on the car so I'm going to 'opt out' of the decarb. Just want the flash.

Here's the real question for everyone (I read all 10 pages and didn't see a distinct answer): Is the RB flash still better, with actual power gains (7.8HP according to them) than this new Mazda flash? If so, I'll have this flash done under warranty then send m ECU to Racing Beat to get THEIR flash. -OR- is this new flash similar to the RB flash with a higher OMP rate? I premix, so I don't care about that. Just wondering if which flash is better and if the RB flash is still worth the $300 now.

Looking for any and all opinions...

What RB Flash does is it will lean out the mixture in the upper RPM range to get more power.

OEM Flash has been known to be pig rich to meet emission standard (prolong the life of the Catalyst Converter)

I have RB Flash (based on last recall flash) and I love the fact that it keeps pulling till redline. I got a yellow card in mail tell me to go do the recall. Im thinking.

I would ask RB if they've updated their flash to keep up with newer OMP settings from Mazda. I would suspect that RB's hp gains based on a leaner fuel mixture would be unrelated to improved OMP settings from Mazda. I doubt Mazda's new flash was designed to increase hp in any way.

BTW, you don' need to opt out of the decarb since it's part of a separate TSB, not part of the recall.

Good idea, I'll ask RB what they think.

I'm opting out of the carbon cleaning because I only have 11k miles on the car. Don't like having unnecessary work done.

Good idea, I'll ask RB what they think.

I'm opting out of the carbon cleaning because I only have 11k miles on the car. Don't like having unnecessary work done.What I'm trying to say is you don't need to opt out of the decarb since the decarb is not part of the recall. It is part of a completely separate TSB to fix (confirmed) complaints of (specific kinds of) loss of power.

Read RB's page for information guys ... all your questions has been answered there long time ago ...

Read RB's page for information guys ... all your questions has been answered there long time ago ...As of 9/06: "Mazda USA has issued an emissions related recall for RX-8’s that were produced up to June 1, 2006. (It is our understanding that cars in dealer’s inventories from June 1, 2006 through August 2006 were updated at the dealership.) This recall involves a reflash of the PCM and replacement of the spark plugs. In California, and other selected states, you are REQUIRED to have this emission recall performed prior to renewal of your registration. If you are considering having your PCM reflashed by Racing Beat, FIRST have your unit updated by Mazda. This process will 1) allow you to renew your registrations, and 2) update the system records with Mazda.

After Mazda services your car, Racing Beat can reflash your PCM. Our reflash programs are based on the most current versions offered by Mazda, and you can be assured that your performance upgrade will be based upon the most current program that is being offered for your specific model year. If you have already had your PCM reflashed by Racing Beat, contact us regarding a complimentary reflash of your unit after you undertake the emissions recall. If you have any questions regarding this update, please contact us and we will be glad to answer your questions."

I still don't see any harm in checking with RB to make sure that their flash has been updated since last month's new Mazda flash.

Our reflash programs are based on the most current versions offered by Mazda, and you can be assured that your performance upgrade will be based upon the most current program that is being offered for your specific model year.

.........

.........nycgps, I just quoted that RB statement from Sept 06. Do you know how long it takes RB to update their flash when a new Mazda flash comes out? I would expect they might take some time to evaluate a new factory flash, but I don't know, and still don't see how it can hurt to ask RB. I have found them to be very helpful.

nycgps, I just quoted that RB statement from Sept 06. Do you know how long it takes RB to update their flash when a new Mazda flash comes out? I would expect they might take some time to evaluate a new factory flash, but I don't know, and still don't see how it can hurt to ask RB. I have found them to be very helpful.

it doesnt hurt to ask, but someone already gave that answer here long time ago.

I cant remember his name but he did asked the same question as you. and RB reply him saying that their flashes will always based on the newest one from Mazda.

I mean you can just send them an email and ask. it doesnt hurt, I just dont want you to waste your time.

Loss of power is definitley part of the powertrain warranty, but some dealers (eg, Flemington Mazda in NJ) will only do the TSB if they actually verify the loss of power symptom. Are there other service departments in your area?

yes - i've left 2 v-mails with this dealer and have not heard back. if i don't hear back from him my monday afternoon i'm just going to go pull my car from them and take it somewhere else!!

got a hold of na today - very nice lady on the phone, at least so far! she said she didn't have record of the dealer trying to contact them about my car!! great, so that means they're retarded, or the dealer was trying to scam $360!!! (remember the dealer told me that na said I had to get the de-carb/sparks done!!). She is going to call the dealer to get the story, and supposed to call me back today...

Find some other dealer - the one your car is at obviously can't be trusted.

There are plenty of members in TX, someone has to be in your area. Find out what dealerships around you don't suck - there should be some mention of it in your regional section (Gulf, I think?)

well, they might not be shady afterall. i'll explain later.

quick question tho b/c i'm about to call them...anyone know what the compression test SHOULD cost, just in case they try to rip me off...$100? i feel like i've seen a number thrown out before but i'm not sure...

oh, do dealers keep testing results on file? b/c the original dealer that i took the 1st power loss to (it's a different dealer than now) did a compression test and said that it was "good" ... but i never saw the numbers. should they have that on file if i call them?