OK folks, you all know me as one of the biggest proponents of the RX-8. So, with a heavy heart, over the past couple of weeks, I've come to accept 2 things:
a) The RX-8 will likely be over $40k Canadian when it comes out (not that it won't be worth every penny)
b) Money will be tight for me for the next year or two

I'm 90% sure that I won't be able to afford an RX-8 in the first year of production. So, I'm considering alternatives, and I'd like the excellent advice of the people on this forum.
As some of you have read, I had a chance to extensively drive a Mazdaspeed Protege this weekend. It was a phenomenal car, and an eye-opener of how good a FWD chassis can be (even though I will never concede that FWD is better than RWD). This car would be perfect if it was RWD, but for under $30000 (or even $40000) you can't find a RWD sport sedan, period. Before everyone shouts "used BMW 3-series" or "used Lexus IS300", I don't want to inherit a BMW with problems (which for my new under-$30000 price limit, it would likely have) and the IS300 only started coming with a stick-shift for 2002, and this year is still very pricey used.
So, my criteria are:
-Excellent handling (something you could take to the track in stock form)
-Enthusiastic engine
-Decent room for 4
-Under $30000 (preferably well under)
-OK for commuting
-Warranty! (After this last car I now own, I will *never* buy a car without a warranty ever again.)

I've narrowed it down to a few finalists, and I want to know what you, dear reader, would pick.
1. Mazdaspeed Protege, $26995 with no options available. I know where there are a small handful not spoken for, so if I jump on them right now, I can get one of the "spicy orange" cars. Or, I could wait and get the 2003.5 version in a few months, which is coming in titanium or yellow (colour uncomfirmed).

http://www.canadiandriver.com/roadtest/images/03ms_protege-1.jpg

2. Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V, $24900, includes "sport package" with ABS, folding rear seat, 300W stereo system, sunroof. Not a limited edition car, so I could buy anytime at my leisure, but the shift action is vague, the rear suspension is a bit "old school" and unsophisticated (beam axle!), and the interior isn't as nice as the Protege.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/images/02sentra_se-r8-1.jpg

3. Ford Focus SVT, not sure what the price is with the heavy discounts Ford is offering. A suspension on par with the Protege, zingy engine, good feeling 6-speed tranny. Not a fan of the tall driving position, and I'd prefer if the whole package was on the sedan instead of the hatchback for ease of access to the back seat (and I prefer the sedan styling)

http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/images/02focus_svt6-1.jpg

So, of these three cars, what would you pick in order, and why? Any advice is appreciated, especially those with some seat time in #'s 2 and 3. And if there is any other cars you think I should consider, by all means, tell me!

For track use, the Mazdaspeed destroys the other two cars. I've a friend who has access to press cars, is an amateur racer (and a very good one) and he has driven all three. By far he preferred the Mazdaspeed. He said the SVT wasn't up to snuff for being pushed hard on a track and the SE-R is simply rubbish, a real step back from the early 90s SE-Rs.

If you're going to go FWD, go with the best.

Why not try a Z, though, if the RX-8 ends up being a bit out of reach for a 250 hp model, a lightly optioned Z should do the job...

Not enough seats in the Z for Grimace.

Hmm, of those three I'd definitely go for the Mazdaspeed Protege as well. I sat in one at SevenStock and was pretty darned impressed with the interior for a car that inexpensive. The shifter seemed too low but otherwise the driving position was excellent. Lots of room in the back, too. And the orange version looks very good (not a fan of the updated look of the gray one).

I'd still try to swing an RX-8 though. ;)

Chances are I won't be able to afford one for a while either (and might not even be able to buy one new at all before they stop making them) but I'm still here, still dreaming. :)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the Focus had something like 7 major recalls since it's been released?

Also, if you decide to get the Protege, I think the 2003 version is better looking than the 2003.5, I really don't like the new wing.

Don't forget that new Neon.. though I personally don't like it, it could be a consideration :)

If it had to be new, I'll put my vote in for the Protege, as well. However, if you're willing to go slightly used AND get a good deal, I might consider trying to find the last model year (in North America) Integra type r. You might be able to get one with a year or two left on the warranty and they are known for outstanding reliability. Not to mention they are pretty much the undisputed king for FWD performance and handling.

MazdaSpeed is the choice for me. The Ford is, well, a Frod. The Niss is Amiss. The Mazda is refined, handles well, and looks great. Great shifter, seats and space inside.

get a WRX, thats the prefect car for ur criteria

Have you thought about the Acura RSX (new or used or even an older Integra) or for less money and power a Toyota Celica? both at or under 25K (US) ;)


EDIT: although those two are NOT RWD. Still, nice when your driving through some snow (so I hear) ;)

Ok, I'll be the first to contribute to the "Get Grimace His RX-8" fund.... Let's see...I have $.42 in my pocket. It's all yours Grim!!! :D

Originally posted by m477
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the Focus had something like 7 major recalls since it's been released?

Yeah, and reading "Consumer Reports" they have it as a great car except for it's reliability record - worse than adverage - rated poor!

Well if you are considering the SVT Focus consider the cougar.

Similar Duratec power a little heavier but much prettier in my opinion you can get a 2003 for about 18000 and the numbers are comporable to an SVT Focus.

Ive had mine for almost 4 years now and havent had a single problem. Room for 4 and had great cargo room. A very slept on car which is a great value. Thats why i got one :)

How about a 1994 or 1995 mid-engined Toyota MR2? They also offered a turbo version. They might cost anywhere around $12,000 to $16,000 (US)

WRX

I'm in the same boat as you...if the RX-8 is too much I'll probably look at the WRX.

I'm a big Mazda fan and I like the MS Protege, but the FS engine is nothing special (even with turbos). I'd wait until they make one off of the new 2.3L engine. Oh, and I'm not a fan of the Orange colour...too flashy for me. And what the hell did they do to the 2003.5 model??? That spoiler is horrid! The new front is so-so.

Hey I guess misery loves company right?

I am in the exact same boat as with Grimace and you others, the price is the crucial aspect to this car. Waiting in the wings though I have the WRX (obvious), the new Mazda 6 (looks good inside and out) and the Acura TSX.

For those of you who don't know, the Acura TSX is basically the Euro Accord brought over here in Acura guise. It is meant to replace the 4 door integra. The stats are 6-speed ~220hp.

So those are my alternates, if Casey does in fact strike out at bat.

Ford Focus or civic SiR (the new one)

I was just about to start a thread titled: Reversal of Fortune.

My wife (who handles our finances) tells me that my $34k car next September when my IS300 lease expires might well be a $20k car due to some unexpected expenses for the new house we are building.

I also have been mulling my options should this calamity manifest. For the first time ever I picked up a copy of Sports Compact Car because they had a review of 8 drivers vehicles below $20k (US dollars). The results were:

1. Dodge Neon SRT-4
2. MazdaSpeed Protege
3. Mini Cooper S
3. Ford SVT Focus
5. Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec-V
6. Hyandai Tiburon V6
7. Volkswagon GTi 1.8t
8. Honda Civic Si

The full review is at http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0301scc_under20gs/
The mag let the hideous Neon win purely on it's brute power but the Protege was incredibly close and they said some amazing things about it's overall behavior (you should definitely read the review). I was also surprised by a 'tuner' mag being so scathing about the new Honda Civic Si.

My top choices at $20k would be the Mazda MPS and the Mini Cooper S (because I look like Mr Bean). If I can scrape to $24k I will probably get the Mazda 6s (having already looked at a V6 Accord) and at $28 it will have to be a base RX-8 6-speed. I must say I am impressed that Mazda seems to have longer warranties than Toyota/Honda - a deciding factor as I will probably be buying the car instead of leasing.

Okay, I'm going to get ready to duck and run from all of the flames after saying this...

What about a Mustang V6? I think they're ugly, but the base model is $17000 US with four seats and a reasonable, if not exciting, engine.

I've never driven or ridden in one, though, so I couldn't tell you how it handles and what the 'fun factor' is, or isn't.

WRX herc

Originally posted by FamilyGuy
Okay, I'm going to get ready to duck and run from all of the flames after saying this...

What about a Mustang V6? I think they're ugly, but the base model is $17000 US with four seats and a reasonable, if not exciting, engine.

I've never driven or ridden in one, though, so I couldn't tell you how it handles and what the 'fun factor' is, or isn't.

I have driven base model Mustangs coutesy of Hertz and Budget. Possibly the worst steering feel I've ever experienced in any car. On the highway I would turn the wheel to move across a lane, and wait, and wait, and then the car would ponderously move lanes. It was no fun in any way whatsoever, and sells purely on image (some people like the styling). Of course the better equipped Mustangs are probably a vast improvement (I hope).

WRX or the Mazda in Titanium. Don't even think about the Focus.. recalls and reliability problems galore. A fellow Prelude owner's boyfriend had one and it caught on fire on a hwy due to a not done recall and burned to a crisp. Bye bye car. Sentra is ok but the rear suspension, beam axle?!.. enough said.
Otherwise RSX-S.. Or Civic SiR with a 200hp K20a motor like in Europe/Japan. I can't believe Honda is screwing NA again and not bringing that care here.. :mad:
Neon is too "immature boy racer" to me and imo it will not be reliable.

Originally posted by FamilyGuy
...What about a Mustang V6?... If you've ever driven one, you'd know what a dog they are. I'm not anti-Mustang or other V8 sports car, they have an appeal all their own. But the V6 Mustang gives up most of what makes the Mustang GT fun.

I read the reviews in SCC about those cars too. Not that the Neon SRT won't have some HP, but it seems to me like a "ringer" was sent for testing (it's happened before, and it'll happen again).

But even with the HP difference that SCC measured, I would go with the MPS. I'd rather give up power for handling and feel, but that's my opinion.

---jps

Geez Grim, I was reading all of these replies, and there it was, almost hidden: Mazda 6!

I think even fully loaded it must be pretty close to your price criteria. Take a little less, I am sure it will be under thirty.

If your choice must be one of the three you listed, however, I would have to say Protege. Nissan: too "cheapie" on materials, and generally not solid enough, and the Ford, well, I think it has all been written in previous replies.

Mazda 6 or Protege.:D

Thanks for all the great responses guys! I feel better knowing I'm not the only one hit in the pocketbook recently, although I wouldn't wish this on anyone else. Its heart breaking to type this and look at that beautiful RX-8 at the top of the webpage... :( For those of you that get the '8, will you let us buff it every once in a while?

RotorMotor, send the cheque to me. :D

4 seats are an absolute must, so the MR2 and 350Z are out. Besides, in Canada, the 350Z starts at over $40k, so why not hold out for the RX-8?

The Focus HAS had a lot of recalls - 11 I think - but most only affect a handfull of cars. It is concerning though. But I look at it this way: the reliability of the turbo Protege is an unknown. At least I know the troublespots of the SVT (and the Spec V for that matter). :)

The Neon SRT hasn't been confirmed if it is coming to Canada or not. I'm a little gunshy of Neons though. They aren't the most reliable, and build quality is so-so. They don't have the most subtle of bodykits either (and I think that is what bothers me most).

Integra Type R's sound like a hoot to drive, and the Mazdaspeed as been said to have the same willingness as the old R to have its tail help out in cornering. But I've never seen one for sale (they must get snatched up pretty damn quick). Any idea what used prices are like? If its significantly less than the Mazdaspeed, I'll check into it.

The WRX is $34995 with zero options. Get a set or two of tires (snow and summer, since the stock tires suck for both) and rims, and we're quickly approaching $40000. I've looked at used ones, and the cheapest I've found is $31995 for cars with 24000-36000 kms. I love WRX's, but they are a bit out of reach, unless I can find somewhere willing to give me a good deal on one before the re-design this spring.

The RSX is $32000 for the Type S. The Premium version is $27000, but for that price, I think the Mazdaspeed is a better bargain. The Celica GTS runs in the same price bracket, but doesn't come with ABS, moonroof, and some other stuff standard... dip into the pocketbook again... Both nice cars though.

The Cougar is a bit tight in the backseat, and here they cost as much as a Mazdaspeed Protege or SVT ($27000). A bit pricey.

WankelWannabe- not sure I can wait until the "Mazdaspeed 3" comes out for 2004 or 2005. Well, I can wait, but my current car can't. Its due for retirement next year (unless it takes an early retirement without my consent...)

tullguylehigh - I've been following the rumours about the TSX for around 6 months now. Definately an interesting alternative. However, I think this one will start above $30k, and be skewed more towards the luxury side of the spectrum (like the 3.2 TL). Why can't we have the Euro Accord Type R?

As for the Mazda6, I'm still waiting for finalized Canadian prices and option packages. Its a hell of a sedan, and I think would be great with the 5-speed, 4-banger, and the sport package. I'm guesstimating price to be about on-par with the Protege, so I'll have to drive both back to back to see which one feels better.

Mustang V6 - while its RWD, there isn't any chassis magic. Its just got too porky (3500 lbs) and soft.

Ok, now for the update. I called the Mazda dealer that I know has Mazdaspeed Protege's coming in for a quote. Right now they have a deal going where I will get $1950 off the $27000 price (first 3 payments covered by Mazda, plus a Graduate Program discount). That puts the price close to the Spec V, so there is no point in settling for the Spec V when the Protege is a superior car. This discount also makes the SVT look expensive, so its out. That leaves the Integra Type R or the Mazda6.

Stay tuned! I only have until Jan. 3 to make up my mind, or the deal on the Protege's is over. Then my choices will be Type R, Mazda6, TSX (maybe), or 2003.5 Titanium MS Protege, or still look for used WRX.

Grim the SVT is coming out 03 with the ZX5 platform so that might just be another choice. price I think would be only $200 US more than the current SVT.

Hey Grim-

Just a couple of suggestions, mainly pertaining to the Integra Type R. DO NOT GET IT!!!

A friend of mine at work has an Acura Integra and came across someone who he got to know who had an Integra Type R. To put it plainly, these cars are stolen like you wouldn't believe.

The JDM parts are often sold off separately and the engine finds a home inside of a Civic hatchback. I have heard stories about people following Type R's home, about suspicious people oogling the parked cars, and other, more dangerous things. Plainly put, you'd be better off avoiding a car such as this. The stress of wondering if you will wake up to it sitting the driveway or not tends to overshadow the driving pleasure, in my opinion.

...how about the Mini Cooper S. I know it's got a bizarre dashboard, but it is supposed to be incredibly fun to drive. My first choice would still be the Mazda Protege however.

Originally posted by tallguylehigh
Hey Grim-

Just a couple of suggestions, mainly pertaining to the Integra Type R. DO NOT GET IT!!!

A friend of mine at work has an Acura Integra and came across someone who he got to know who had an Integra Type R. To put it plainly, these cars are stolen like you wouldn't believe.

The JDM parts are often sold off separately and the engine finds a home inside of a Civic hatchback. I have heard stories about people following Type R's home, about suspicious people oogling the parked cars, and other, more dangerous things. Plainly put, you'd be better off avoiding a car such as this. The stress of wondering if you will wake up to it sitting the driveway or not tends to overshadow the driving pleasure, in my opinion.

Although car theft is prominent every where you go - grimace is from canada, and I'm pretty sure we have alot more regulations as far as used car sales go. Not only that, I'm sure Grim is intelligent enough to 'look' into the history of probable purchases - and wouldn't let your above idea be something that excludes a possible car.

i still say the civic siR is a good buy - test drive that!!

Originally posted by pelucidor
...how about the Mini Cooper S. I know it's got a bizarre dashboard, but it is supposed to be incredibly fun to drive. My first choice would still be the Mazda Protege however.

Does anyone know if the Mini can be bought for under the MSRP yet? I was also thinking abot it if as a posible choice for myself or the Protege 5 ...

Originally posted by Grimace ... The RSX is $32000 for the Type S. The Premium version is $27000, but for that price, I think the Mazdaspeed is a better bargain. ...

As for the Mazda6, I'm still waiting for finalized Canadian prices and option packages. Its a hell of a sedan, and I think would be great with the 5-speed, 4-banger, and the sport package. I'm guesstimating price to be about on-par with the Protege, so I'll have to drive both back to back to see which one feels better.

I'm not sure how much prices differ from the States, but, this last summer, I almost bought an RSX (Not the Type-S) with cloth seats and a rear wing for $250 over dealer invoice which brought the price to be under $21,000 (not including tax or plates) but I decided to hold off and wait for the RX-8 ... (IMHO, the one thing that I liked about the Celica over the RSX was the Celica had a better EPA gas milage rating and had a larger rear trunk but the RSX has standard what the Celica has listed as options - like ABS breaks and side airbags - which, here in Texas the Toyota dealerships told me I was never ever going to be able find on any of their cars even though it's listed as an option) So here I am today, still waiting ...

Yes, still dreaming and waiting for the RX-8 ... but now money has become very tight so it looks like even a $28,000+ car might even be out of my range :( I'm also wondering about the Mazda 6 prices and waiting for the hatchback version ... or I might be thinking of the Protege 5 ...

Normally, for myself, I've always have bought my cars (I keep them for about 13+ years), but I'm starting to think about leasing for a few years than trading up to the RX-8 ... :confused:

Good luck, again and keep us informed

I am not a huge fan of it, but a GTi seems like a good idea.

Originally posted by said7
Well if you are considering the SVT Focus consider the cougar.

Similar Duratec power a little heavier but much prettier in my opinion you can get a 2003 for about 18000 and the numbers are comporable to an SVT Focus.

Ive had mine for almost 4 years now and havent had a single problem. Room for 4 and had great cargo room. A very slept on car which is a great value. Thats why i got one :)

There are no 2003 Cougars.....production ended in August 2002 to make way for the new Mazda6.

Spining Ncnratr - good point on the 5-door SVT. I looked up Canadian MSRP on the current 3-door SVT, and its $27k and some change. But my friend insists that you can get a large discount on SVT's right now, since they aren't selling quite as well as expected. If these discounts actually exist, and they bring the price down to $25000 or less, I'll have to test drive this car to compare it to the MS Protege.

tallguylehigh - a good point on the Type R. Of course, I think the MS Protege would also be a theft target (but not to the same extent). I know the regular Civics and Integras are expensive to insure because of this, so I can imagine the Type R would be pricey too. I'll check into this.

pelucidor - I have indeed checked out the Mini's. I live about 2 minutes away from the Toronto Mini dealer. :D Been by a few times. A Cooper S is just a hair under $30000, and has quite a few options even at that price level. Even if I got no options/accessories, I'd be paying about $75/month more than the MS Protege (why do I keep comparing all the suggestions to this car? :) ) Plus the backseat is really tight. Still a firecracker of a car though for those who can swing it.

bwayout - Good luck to you too (and everyone else who is in the same financial situation). Keep me informed of the different vehicles you consider too. The P5 is a really nice car, handling and cargo space abound, and its really nicely styled. The RSX is good too, bulletproof Acura reliability (ignore those 5-speed automatic recalls ;) ).

cueball1029 - the GTi has gotten pricey over the years. A base GTi is $26330, plus $600 for 17" wheels. I haven't heard good things about the drive-by-wire throttle either, and there have been some issues with the window regulators, etc. (I lurk at VW Vortex). I'll try one out though, and see if the suspension is really as mushy as everyone says. Just doesn't seem like much of a bargain.
Now, if it were $24000, that'd be a different story.


So, what are the other people who realize they can't afford the RX-8 (right away) thinking of getting instead?

How about the 2003 Acura TSX based on the Japanese Accord? Too large/expensive?

Like electronics, those who get the first ones are going to pay a premium for it. Save those pennies and by Fall 2003 sales will likely level off. Prime time to strike if you can extend driving the current car, unless you absolutely positively have to have a sporty compact now, Grimmy. :)

Originally posted by Grimace
So, what are the other people who realize they can't afford the RX-8 (right away) thinking of getting instead?

Well, if I can't afford an RX-8 right away I'll probably keep my Corolla and buy an older RX-7. I've always wanted an RX-7 for as long as I can remember...1st, 2nd, or 3rd gen, it doesn't matter, I think they are all sexy!

Toad: Not really worried about high demand driving the price up on the RX-8. Its illegal to charge more than MSRP in Canada anyway. Its just that my financial situation has changed a bit, enough to not be able to afford a $40k + car within the next year. I *will* still get an RX-8 in the future though, maybe a 2005 or a used 2004 or something.

Quick_lude - too many unknowns with the TSX right now. Its pretty much all speculation about what drivetrain, transmission, etc. we'll get. And what the final weight will be, and other specs like that. I'm still following its development though. Maybe it will turn into a crackerjack of a sport sedan. Then again, maybe it will be watered down for North America. Time will tell.

Grimace,
I'm really sorry you won't be able to get the rx8 (for a couple of years at least), your posts as an owner would have been very interesting!

Anyway, based on what you have said, I think you got a few choices. Low-end sports sedans, sporty coupes/hatchbacks and sport compact cars.

The obvious low-end sports car is the WRX. On cars.com doing a quick search, I saw a bunch ranging between $17,000 - $25,000 US $. I would be careful, since that boxter engine needs to be broken in gently. Its a good car, if you are comfortable with its looks, but not my personal cup of tea. Very good off the line acceleration (albeit with a bit of turbo lag), grippy handling (but not light and tossable and too much body roll for my liking) and great for those canadian winters! I don't like the gear box, its way too notchy. The interior is plain, but i don't care too much(as long as its not cheesy!). For whatever reason, I just don't think the engine will be as strong as long as some NA powerplants, but that's just a gut feeling.


The new sports coupes/hatchbacks I'd even consider would be the RSX-S and the Celica GTS. The RSX-S has a great gear box...nice smooth acceleration, but enough of a peak above 6000 RPM or so to make it somewhat entertaining. Good steering and pretty sharp to turn. Pretty light and tossable. Classy interior and rear visibility is not bad for a hatchback. All in all a good car, but I agree..its price is not justified as new. I saw a few Used between $19,000-$23,000 on cars.com. Keep in mind, the RSX- Type R MAY come hear for the RSX's 3rd model year, so if you could wait, you MAY get it for around say $27K (US). I believe this would be the best overall performing car in your price range. EVO test drove it on their site. Here is a link:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/front_bannerad.php?kwd=front_evo_homepage

I don't think you would have to worry too much about theft from the RSX-S or future RSX-R.

The Celica GTS has incredibly sharp steering, great road feel and a high reving engine that is fun (but very peaky), but in the end a bit dissappointing in that it needs to rev higher to have a respectable high power band. It is very light and tossable... I don't like the gear box as its easy to misshift and its notchy. Rear visibility is horrible! Interior, while having a lot of plastic, is kinda cool, kinda like a futuristic race car! Its definitely a car with so much potential, but has some serious flaws. Like the RSX-S, I wouldn't buy it new, but it can be had for a reasonable price since its been around since the 2000 MY. It can be had for around $15,000 - $23,000 US$.

As mentioned, by a previous poster the Type R integra is probobly the best FWD car available currently. I almost bought one used last year, and drove it really hard (at the owner's request!). Phenominal cornerning limits, very light and nimble (but not as much as the celica gts). I was taking turns at speeds unbeleivable to me!. The steering feel was not as good as the celica...and did feel a little rubbery. The engine is extremely peaky, but does have an adequate power band (albeit high in RPMS). However, the peakiness of this engine is what really makes the car fun....its like a turbo kicking in at 6000 RPM. This car would be the biggest adrenaline rush of the ones listed here. It is hardcrore...with the sound deadening material gone...you can hear the road....i mean really hear it! I was quoted 25% higher insurance for the type r vs. the celica gts/rsx-s.


If you want to go cheaper, you could always go with a late 90s eclipse gts...210 HP (i think) AWD. Never driven it, but i hear was one of the top sport coupes at the time.


The sport compact car segment seems to have a lot of decent choices. I agree with the others that the new neon and the mazdaspeed protege are tops there. From what i have read this car comes close to the ITR in handling, but i dont know about in terms of adrenaline rush. The new neon, while being fun for a little while, would be unacceptable w/o a lsd. I'd still drive the svt and even the mps protege, they are both good performing cars in this group that you may like better subjectively.

In the end I think you need to ask yourself the question, "Am i willing to pay $X amount more for a new/more expensive car that still isn't what i wanted originally?" The answer will lead you to the one you choose that still falls within your acceptable parameters.

PS: If you do decide to go used, I'm sure many educated board members would be happy to test drive cars that aren't close by for you!

The link in my post got messed up..here it is again.


http://www.evo.co.uk/

Ok, well that link got you to the homepage, its under "Driven" - "Archives" "Honda Integra - Type R"

Grim,
Sorry to hear about your change of plans and situation. Good luck in findings, and with your current car holding up. Hope you stay around in whatever you choose to do, your a great asset(sp?) to this site.

Strider-

Originally posted by Grimace
So, what are the other people who realize they can't afford the RX-8 (right away) thinking of getting instead? Probably nothing. I'll keep dumping money into my MR2 from time to time, but I really hope to be able to buy a new RX-8 before they stop producing them.

Originally posted by Strider
Grim,
Sorry to hear about your change of plans and situation. Good luck in findings, and with your current car holding up. Hope you stay around in whatever you choose to do, your a great asset(sp?) to this site.

Strider-

Don't worry, you won't be able to get rid of me THAT easily. :)
I'll still be posting just as much. Gotta see what problems you guys have in your first year. ;) j/k

Originally posted by revhappy
Ok, well that link got you to the homepage, its under "Driven" - "Archives" "Honda Integra - Type R"

Cool, thanks!
I read it. Sounds like an awesome car! Too bad it'll never come to Canada. If it did, the Type S is $32000, so I imagine the Type R would be creeping towards the high $30's. I'm checking used prices on the Type S right now.
Priced out used WRX's. Cheapest I found was $31995. Still a high demand for these I guess.
Not interested in the Eclipse/Talon line. I've driven a few used ones, and they just didn't do anything for me. Most are driven HARD by their owner as well, and reliability of the driveline is questionable at best.

Gimmy, the jan. issue of SCC did a comparo of 7 diff. sport compacts. the mazdaspeed protege came in second (although they said it was real close) and the dodge srt4 came in first. you should read that before you make a decision. alot of good info and insights on the varioue cars they tested.

Good point about SCC magazine's comparo. You'd think someone else whould have suggested that by now...

Yes, it's a great issue. Only reason the SRT-4 won the comparo was because it had 227hp. here (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0301scc_under20gs/) is the article.

I'm facing this sad decision as well. I can attest to the quality and reliability of the Protege. When my '91 300ZX died, I inherited my wife's '96 Protege DX. It has been flawlessly reliable, and has a very solid body, no creaks or rattles, even at nearly 160K miles. But a base model Protege, with a 4-speed auto and mushy suspension is absolutely no fun, and has seriously turned me off to the Protege line entirely. The suspension on the Mazdaspeed is a dealer installed option on all current models of Protege (not listed on the website though), so if you really wanted to save some money for your future RX-8 purchase, this might be worth looking into. Mazda is really proud of the extra 40hp on the Mazdaspeed, and it just isn't worth the price difference to me, even if I could face another Protege. I have to second revhappy's assessment of the RSX-S and the Celica GTS, these are both great cars. If the RSX-S were available used, it would be my first choice. However, I think I'll save several thousand dollars, and try to find a nice slightly-used Celica GTS.

The suspension on the Mazdaspeed is a dealer installed option on all current models of Protege
Actually the MS Protege is delivered complete to the dealer. There are Mazdaspeed accessories that will allow you to build and accessorize like the Mazdaspeed Protege however.

I was in a similar predicament last year. I didn't think my car would last and I couldn't bear (though i could have afforded) to buy a new car that I wasn't happy with (rsx-s, celica gts or any of the RX8s closest competitors available at the time). Luckily, after a more thorough examination of my car (and my driving habits), I had more life in it than I initially thought! I still may be in that situation, if the RX8 dissappoints (and if the S2000/rsx-type r (if available) - my alternative choices are not up to expectations). It looks like you have narrowed it down to the Mazdaspeed Protege, RSX-S and Celica GTS (and Ford Focus SVT too?) plus an outside chance for the WRX and ITR.

I came to the same conclusion as etherdruid that a used celica gts was the best choice. The RSX-S, while a better overall car, was just too expensive used compared to the celica gts and the ITR (those that were being priced fairly - many were being offered at ridiculous prices). Since the ITR was more rare, the celica gts was a more practical alternative (along with the significantly lower insurance rate). I figured i could put up with the celica's shortcomings for a couple of years! Then again the Mazdaspeed Protege was not available then.

Today, it would be a more difficult decision. The RSX-S probobly has the best straight line performance with the celica gts and the mzs protege following. However, i don't think the differences will be that big. Handling, should be interesting...all handle well, but based on reviews, the mzs protege looks the best. However, handling is subjective. Since I've never driven a mzs protege, I'm guessing the celica GTS may feel a little more light, nimble and tossable (due to its shorter length and lighter weight), but the mzs protege sounds like its got better grip, more balance and higher limits (especially with the lsd). I can bet that the mzs has a better shifter and better low-end power and a wider power band than the celica GTS. I'd love to compare the gearbox in the MZS Protege and the RSX-S(the RSX-S was very good when I drove it on my test drives, but the MZS Protege's sounds very good too). The RSX-S, with its I-VTEC engine has power and torque curves similar in shape to the RX8...so its got a good mid and high range power band....while the mzs protege looks like itd be a bit better on the low-end, but not have the high-end...peak power of the other two cars.

In terms of looks, I like the celica and rsx better (but thats subjective anyway) mainly because of the MZS Protege's wing and my preference for hatchbacks. In the end, it looks to me that the MZS Protege is the better car because its better tuned for the enthusiast. In addition, it seems like it does nearly everything very well. All three cars, take somewhat different paths, so someone COULD prefer the approach of one vs. the others. However, I'd have to test drive the MZS Protege to confirm this. Now is it worth $6,000 - $7,000 more than a used celica GTS? I'm not too sure, but I guess it depends on the person.

Originally posted by zoom44
Gimmy, the jan. issue of SCC did a comparo of 7 diff. sport compacts. the mazdaspeed protege came in second (although they said it was real close) and the dodge srt4 came in first. you should read that before you make a decision. alot of good info and insights on the varioue cars they tested.

Thanks Zoom44 (and Toadman for the link), just read the online version of the article.
I agree with most of what they said. My choice would still be the MS Protege out of the cars they tested. Just for interest sake for our Canadian readers, here is the MSRP of the cars they tested:
1. Dodge SRT - not announced yet
2. MS Protege - $26995
3 (tie). Mini Cooper S - $29950
Ford Focus SVT - $27240
4. Sentra SE-R Spec V - $22000 (although, to be fair, add $2900 for ABS...)
5. Tiburon (GS-R model for Canada) - $28795
6. VW Golf GTi - $26330 (add $600 for 17" wheels/performance tires)
7. Honda Civic SiR - $25550

I agree with what Toadman said though - the only reason the SRT won the comparison is its power, and some have suggested it was a specially prepped car (the engine was extremely strong - more WHP than BHP... hmmmm....)

Did a search on Integra's on www.autotrader.ca . I think those cars are out... do a quick search. There are a ton of Integra theft recoveries missing seats, engine, transmission, body parts, etc. Like every third listing! I knew these cars were a popular car for theft and that's why insurance is so high, but man! Never figured it was that bad.

Just read the Car and Driver review of the Mazdaspeed Protege. While likeing it overall, several of the reviewers complained of torque steer. I didn't see any such complaints in the Edmunds or Sports Compact Car reviews, but I would give it a pretty hard test drive to see if there is any truth to it.

Just read the Car and Driver review of the Mazdaspeed Protege. While likeing it overall, several of the reviewers complained of torque steer. Heh... Well it is FWD of course, even with a LSD. ;)

Don't worry, you won't be able to get rid of me THAT easily.

Worth a shot. j/k

From what it looks like on the Canadian side of pricing it's take our price add around 20-30% "markup" (due to difference in currency) and your good to go, am I correct on this?

not really... the price level difference is a major factor, but you'd quickly find that multiplying the US price by the exchange rate, the prices in Canada (in general) are much lower... this is because the demand for new automobiles in Canada is far lower than it is in the US, and correspondingly the prices must be lower (in real terms) to clear the market.

During my drive of the Mazdaspeed Protege, I didn't notice any torque steer, but I wasn't doing any drop-clutch launches. I DID accelerate hard through 1st-2nd-3rd gear from a stop but I didn't experience any torque steer. If I was driving the car blindfolded (not adviseable... ;) ) I wouldn't have been able to tell if the car was FWD or RWD.

Anyway, yeah, us Canuks have it good with car pricing. What is the Mazdaspeed Protege going for in the US, just under $20k? It lists for $26995 here (and I can get it for $25k even). If it were priced just according to the exchange, the Canadian price would be over $30k.
Mazda in particular prices their vehicles quite inexpensively in Canada compared to the US. Which is good for us. :)

Well, last Friday, I was #4 in a 6 car accident and mine was the only car that had to be towed away... :(

So now it looks like I'm getting a 2003 Protege5 ... and plan on trading up to the RX-8 in a couple of years hopfully!

Sorry to hear about your accident Bwayout,

Have you thought about using the insurance money to buy a used car for now so you can have a bigger down payment for the RX-8? I've always felt that I could only justify the expense of a new car if I kept it for a long time. If you buy a new car only to sell it in a couple of years, you lose a lot more money in depreciation.

Wow bwayout, that sucks. I was #3 in a 5-car pile-up, and mine was the worst of the cars that didn't have to be towed away.
But I'll re-iterate what Buger said. Can you get a real beater car to get you by until the 8 comes out?

The answer to the question won't be found on here. It will be found when you go and test drive the cars at the dealers. Go out and drive every one on your list, and maybe a couple that are not. You never know.

That said, I thoroughly enjoyed the 18 months I spent in a VW GTI 1.8T. Not the best for racing around cones, but probably the best for everyday driving. It's quick, comfortable, handles well enough, and reminds me more of an Audi than a VW. If I do not like the test drive of my RX-8 when it comes in, I am going down the street to the VW dealer and getting another one. I kinda miss mine...

Originally posted by Buger
Sorry to hear about your accident Bwayout,

Have you thought about using the insurance money to buy a used car for now so you can have a bigger down payment for the RX-8? I've always felt that I could only justify the expense of a new car if I kept it for a long time. If you buy a new car only to sell it in a couple of years, you lose a lot more money in depreciation.

Haven't heard from my insurance yet. I'm not expecting a lot of money from them - my 1990 Probe would have been 13 years old this June and had 228636 miles on it ...

You and Grimace are right about getting something older and cheaper for the short term! I went looking at cars last weekend an saw a nice 2001 Civic coupe but the deal with Mazda offering 0 down with 0% made it cheeper to get the Mazda Protege5 ... but I'm still looking around
;)

I'd love to get an old MX6 or MX3 but there are none around ...

Thanks for the reality check :D