****UPDATE - I HAVE THE CONFIRMED '09 RATIOS, AND THEY ARE DIFFERENT. 3RD is 1.536, and 6TH is .787... so, good news for cruising, bad news for 3-4 rev drop. They should have just changed 6th. I will updated these charts accordingly, but another time. Cocktails are calling!****

I figured I'd start a new thread because my gear chart got buried pages deep within the misinformation of the other thread.

The 'strengthened' transmission, is acutally the MX-5 transmission. I saw a new RX-8 version of it when I was in the Mazda Tech center in Irvine last month. This is 100% confirmed. Completely different transmission, with slightly different ratios than the current Aisin box.

Provided the ratios don't change from the MX-5 transmission, the following should be a very accurate gear chart showing the differences between an '04-'08 car and the '09 R3. I omitted 1st gear from this, but first is significantly shorter, so it will run out sooner.

I'll work to verify that the ratios aren't going to change. We hope to have a test-mule transmission here to play with in a month or so, and when we do I'll let everyone know how it holds up.


Car (1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th FD)
04-'08' RX-8 (3.760 - 2.269 - 1.645 - 1.187 - 1.000 - 0.843 - 4.440)
09' RX-8 R3 (3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 - 0.832 - 4.770)

Revs @60, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 8391.9 / 3rd - 6084.1 / 4th - 4390.1 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3117.9
Revs @60, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 8807.4 / 3rd - 6391.2 / 4th -4586.9 / 5th - 3897.1 / 6th - 3242.4


Speed @Redline, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 63.6 / 3rd - 87.8 / 4th - 121.6 / 5th - 144.4 / 6th - 171.3
Speed @Redline, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 60.6 / 3rd - 83.6 / 4th - 116.4 / 5th - 137.0 / 6th - 164.7


Rev drop, '04-'07 RX-8 - 2nd to 3rd - 6746.7 / 3rd to 4th - 6715.0 / 4th to 5th - 7839.9 / 5th to 6th - 7845.0
Rev drop, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd to 3rd - 6885.3 / 3rd to 4th - 6809.6 / 4th to 5th - 8061.4 / 5th to 6th - 7894.2

so does this mean the car will accelerate significantly faster in 1 and 2 gears?

or might be slower ( due to the more shifitings you will have to do )

should give noticeable better acceleration at exit of a turn on a road course, where shifting points matter less than getting better entry/exit speeds.

hell, even in a 1/4 drag race i think the new gear ratio will get faster trap speed.

the MX-5 transmission is considered a very good trans, correct? Or is just considered good when compared to the POS Aisin in the 8?

I still don't like the fact that the 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th shifts have about the same rev drop. In my opinion a 4th that drops the revs to about 7200 would be ideal from a performance point of view.

The current Aisin unit is not a bad transmission from a shifting point of view, it's just fragile.

the MX-5 transmission is considered a very good trans, correct? Or is just considered good when compared to the POS Aisin in the 8?


i'm sorry. POS how? it's been praised almost universally? do you mean in terms of the widespread gear grinding or what? i love the transmission and it hasn't done me wrong, though 4th and occasionally 5th now are starting to grind under hard acceleration. balls.

the MX-5 transmission is considered a very good trans, correct? Or is just considered good when compared to the POS Aisin in the 8?

The MX-5 guys like their 5 speed better than their 6 speed. I say we take the S2000 unit and call it a day!

the MX-5 transmission is considered a very good trans, correct? Or is just considered good when compared to the POS Aisin in the 8?

well the previous generation miata's transmission was deemed good enough that the 6speed version was dropped into the RX-8. i dont know anyone whos ever called it a pos. as stated it can be fragile but its a very good tranny

I don't like the fact that the revs in 6th @ 60 actually went up. That will be even worse for gas mileage.

Lionzoo - that's what I was wondering. the 5 speed mx-5 trans seems to be well liked by owners, but I honestly know nothing about the 6 mt.

i'm sorry. POS how? it's been praised almost universally? do you mean in terms of the widespread gear grinding or what? i love the transmission and it hasn't done me wrong, though 4th and occasionally 5th now are starting to grind under hard acceleration. balls.

sounds like you answered your own question.

but like lionzoo said - it's fragile. somewhat lost in the engine replacement madness is the fact that there have been some tranny replacements as well.

:doh:

ok, so I guess I know plenty about the 6mt, then - thanks zoom.

thought the 5 speed mx-5 was not Aisin.

the MX-5 transmission is considered a very good trans, correct? Or is just considered good when compared to the POS Aisin in the 8?

The Aisin in the 99 to 05 MX5 is considered indestructable whereas the 06 Mazda NC Miata 6 speed has been less than stellar. I hope that they are considerably improved if the 09 RX8 6 speed turns out to be family to that box.

The Aisin in the RX8 is not a bad box but it isn't forgiving to errors in operation, especially grinding of gears, improper clutch engagement etc.

Paul.

I have to agree with what rotarygod previously speculated in another thread that the current tranny's woes stem mostly from rpm issues. Miatas seem to have no issue with transmission reliability and keep in mind the Mazdaspeed Miata has more peak torque than our cars.

Mazda made one change between the MSM tranny and the RX-8 tranny: they changed the 4th gear ratio from a 1.26 to a 1.19 for the RX-8. Why? The original 1.26 ratio would help with the 4th gear complaints...

The Aisin in the 99 to 05 MX5 is considered indestructable whereas the 06 Mazda NC Miata 6 speed has been less than stellar. I hope that they are considerably improved if the 09 RX8 6 speed turns out to be family to that box.

The Aisin in the RX8 is not a bad box but it isn't forgiving to errors in operation, especially grinding of gears, improper clutch engagement etc.

Paul.

Ahhh. Thanks Paul. Obviously I wasn't paying enough attention over the last year & a half, as I knew the 5 speed was held in high regard.

No issues with mine (except the smell of redline fluid all the damn time) - so I will rescind my POS comment. Somewhat. Fragile isn't exactly a term one likes to hear regularly associated with the trans. Maybe POS goes too far . . . or maybe the smell is just making me bitter.

will the new trans bolt right up?

will the new ring and pinion bolt right up?

has thisbeen discussed already? prolly

I rebuild all the gearboxes for our race team, and I've personally rebuilt dozens of each of the boxes in question. I have some insight into each version.

1. Venerable Miata (and 1st gen RX7) 5-speed. This box is nearly bullet proof, even in forced induction applications. Has been upgraded throughout the years, including helical reverse and dual-cone 2nd gear synchro in '94. Curiously, in '99, the retaining rings that keep the gears from 'overthrowing' were removed from the shift rods. PPF mounts from the passenger side.

2. MX-5 (2006+) 5-speed. This is a new version of the same venerable 5-speed box - exactly the same internals, and intermediate case, with a new bellhousing and tail shaft. This trans adds dual-cone synchros for 3rd and 1st, I think... it's been a while since I've been in one. This is the box that's so highly regarded by MX-5'ers, but it caused us nothing but problems when we tried to race them in the MX-5 Cup. The cases were twisting, and 3rd or 4th would regularly shear off. There was heavy evidence of the case twist. I don't think any of this would be a problem in a street application. PPF mounts from the driver's side.

3. Aisin 6-speed for '99-'05 Miata/Miata Turbo. Generally regarded as bulletproof, not raced as widespread as the RX-8 - but raced enough to know it's a good box. As noted above, has a better 4th gear ratio than in the RX-8. PPF mounts from the passenger side.

4. Aisin 6-speed for '04-'08 RX-8. Generally good reputation for street use, but very fragile for racing use. Big problems with 3rd/4th being overthrown and losing their shift-keys detent balls. Very poor metal quality for both steel and aluminum parts. Quick wear on shift hub slider teeth and matching gear teeth - causing grinding. Doesn't last very long in race use. We've made some upgraded parts that make them last better (one recently finished the NASA 25hr race,) but still a compromised design. At best, our fixes only extend the inevitable demise. PPF mounts on the driver's side.

5. '06+ MX-5 (and '09+ RX-8) 6-speed. Single case, or toploader design (much stiffer structure than the mult-part caes on the other designs.) Very large gears, much bigger than the other gearboxes. Dual cone synchros on all but 5th, 6th and Reverse. The weakest link on this gearbox is the 3/4 shift fork. It's weak metal, and breaks quite easily. We have made a billet replacement for racing use, and I hope that the new RX-8 box has an upgraded part. We've passed on everything we learn to Mazda, they are acutely aware of this issue. There is an adjustment for 3/4th shift throw, and this being mal-adjusted is the cause of most complaints from street users - the dealers can't do anything about it, because it's not in the shop manual... we've worked with Mazda, and it should be added. There are also three plastic bushings that break when the trans gets to racing temperatures. Finally, the 3/4 shift hub is prone to cracking under racing use. The gears are very durable, and the teeth on the hubs/gears stay sharp even after two seasons of racing. MOST of this gearbox is bulletproof, and Mazda is aware of the weak links... I'm sure they have integrated some of these fixes into the RX-8 version of the gearbox, knowing the weight/hp increase that it will need to hold. I can only assume that they delayed putting it into the RX-8 until they learned as much as possible about it. I would confidently say this is the best gearbox of the bunch. PPF is mounted on the [i]driver's[i] side of the case.

Sharp readers will note that on both the 5-speed and the Aisin box, in the Miata application the gearbox is trouble-free, and the RX-8 and MX-5 applications of those same boxes, they don't hold up as well. REALLY sharp readers will notice that the PPF mounts on opposite sides in each case... making me believe that's too much of a coincidence. I think the side it's mounted on makes all the difference in how the tranny will last.

Overall, I'd be happy they went to this box... it should be much better than the current one, especially for street and autox/occasional track use.

As soon as we get one here to play with (hopefully very soon,) I'll let you guys know if the improvements made it in there, and how it holds up for us on the track.

I have to agree with what rotarygod previously speculated in another thread that the current tranny's woes stem mostly from rpm issues. Miatas seem to have no issue with transmission reliability and keep in mind the Mazdaspeed Miata has more peak torque than our cars.

Mazda made one change between the MSM tranny and the RX-8 tranny: they changed the 4th gear ratio from a 1.26 to a 1.19 for the RX-8. Why? The original 1.26 ratio would help with the 4th gear complaints...

hey I made a thread on this!
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=132539

I'm looking forward to when the details are confirmed.

the MX-5 transmission is considered a very good trans, correct? Or is just considered good when compared to the POS Aisin in the 8?

I thought the 8's tranny is fantastic. Smooth and sure. In contrast the MX5's 6-cog is terrible. No way as good as its 5spd brother.

I thought the 8's tranny is fantastic. Smooth and sure. In contrast the MX5's 6-cog is terrible. No way as good as its 5spd brother.

Read my breakdown above - this is my experience with racing a building these boxes, not the opinions you heard over on miata.net. Take the time to read my breakdown above, and learn about each trans. The biggest complaints you hear about MX-5 6-speeds is due to an adjustment procedure missing from the shop manual...

See here:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=237737

I rebuild all the gearboxes for our race team, and I've personally rebuilt dozens of each of the boxes in question. I have some insight into each version.

1. Venerable Miata (and 1st gen RX7) 5-speed. This box is nearly bullet proof, even in forced induction applications. Has been upgraded throughout the years, including helical reverse and dual-cone 2nd gear synchro in '94. Curiously, in '99, the retaining rings that keep the gears from 'overthrowing' were removed from the shift rods. PPF mounts from the passenger side.

2. MX-5 (2006+) 5-speed. This is a new version of the same venerable 5-speed box - exactly the same internals, and intermediate case, with a new bellhousing and tail shaft. This trans adds dual-cone synchros for 3rd and 1st, I think... it's been a while since I've been in one. This is the box that's so highly regarded by MX-5'ers, but it caused us nothing but problems when we tried to race them in the MX-5 Cup. The cases were twisting, and 3rd or 4th would regularly shear off. There was heavy evidence of the case twist. I don't think any of this would be a problem in a street application. PPF mounts from the driver's side.

3. Aisin 6-speed for '99-'05 Miata/Miata Turbo. Generally regarded as bulletproof, not raced as widespread as the RX-8 - but raced enough to know it's a good box. As noted above, has a better 4th gear ratio than in the RX-8. PPF mounts from the passenger side.

4. Aisin 6-speed for '04-'08 RX-8. Generally good reputation for street use, but very fragile for racing use. Big problems with 3rd/4th being overthrown and losing their shift-keys detent balls. Very poor metal quality for both steel and aluminum parts. Quick wear on shift hub slider teeth and matching gear teeth - causing grinding. Doesn't last very long in race use. We've made some upgraded parts that make them last better (one recently finished the NASA 25hr race,) but still a compromised design. At best, our fixes only extend the inevitable demise. PPF mounts on the driver's side.

5. '06+ MX-5 (and '09+ RX-8) 6-speed. Single case, or toploader design (much stiffer structure than the mult-part caes on the other designs.) Very large gears, much bigger than the other gearboxes. Dual cone synchros on all but 5th, 6th and Reverse. The weakest link on this gearbox is the 3/4 shift fork. It's weak metal, and breaks quite easily. We have made a billet replacement for racing use, and I hope that the new RX-8 box has an upgraded part. We've passed on everything we learn to Mazda, they are acutely aware of this issue. There is an adjustment for 3/4th shift throw, and this being mal-adjusted is the cause of most complaints from street users - the dealers can't do anything about it, because it's not in the shop manual... we've worked with Mazda, and it should be added. There are also three plastic bushings that break when the trans gets to racing temperatures. Finally, the 3/4 shift hub is prone to cracking under racing use. The gears are very durable, and the teeth on the hubs/gears stay sharp even after two seasons of racing. MOST of this gearbox is bulletproof, and Mazda is aware of the weak links... I'm sure they have integrated some of these fixes into the RX-8 version of the gearbox, knowing the weight/hp increase that it will need to hold. I can only assume that they delayed putting it into the RX-8 until they learned as much as possible about it. I would confidently say this is the best gearbox of the bunch. PPF is mounted on the [i]driver's[i] side of the case.

Sharp readers will note that on both the 5-speed and the Aisin box, in the Miata application the gearbox is trouble-free, and the RX-8 and MX-5 applications of those same boxes, they don't hold up as well. REALLY sharp readers will notice that the PPF mounts on opposite sides in each case... making me believe that's too much of a coincidence. I think the side it's mounted on makes all the difference in how the tranny will last.

Overall, I'd be happy they went to this box... it should be much better than the current one, especially for street and autox/occasional track use.

As soon as we get one here to play with (hopefully very soon,) I'll let you guys know if the improvements made it in there, and how it holds up for us on the track.

Very interesting info Jason. It's odd that most people have problems on the 3-4 shift, but my gearbox is crunchy when cold on the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts unless I take care to shift very slowly. I really wish there was some way to put in a S2000 gearbox.

Jason

Great info thanks , can i pick your gearbox brain :) and ask your candid opinion on the new clucthless Dual fully automated systems like the Audi / VW Dsg and the newly soon to be released Evo X TC SST .

Do you see this style box ever going in to a rotary engined car ? Possibly the new 16 X , If Mazda ever get around to actually making it .

Cheers
Michael

Jason,

thanks for a lot of great info. The early Miata went through even more synchro changes than you mentioned. It gained dual cones in 94 and again in 96 to my memory.

Quote: Sharp readers will note that on both the 5-speed and the Aisin box, in the Miata application the gearbox is trouble-free, and the RX-8 and MX-5 applications of those same boxes, they don't hold up as well. REALLY sharp readers will notice that the PPF mounts on opposite sides in each case... making me believe that's too much of a coincidence. I think the side it's mounted on makes all the difference in how the tranny will last.

The PPF is of course positioned in relation to exhaust position, are you saying that torsional forces are at work differently depending on the side the PPF is placed on?

Here's a controversal statement: Rotaries are harder on gearboxes than piston engines of equal power and even similar power curves.

Seal.

One other data point is that the Porsche 911 (997) uses Aisin gearboxes now (except in the GT models and Turbo)

Can we move this to the tech section? It will be hard to find in the future.

Plus some readers may miss this.

oh its a moving:) off to tech we go:)

Hmm, if these are the definite gear ratios,

I can tell you that 1st gear is a PITA(for daily drive) with the FEED gear. And with the multiplication its going to get, its going to be even more of a pita.

Yes, it gives it a lot more get up and go, but 1st gear goes by so quickly in daily driving, I usually shift in the first 10 or 30 feet (due in no small part to how loud my midpipe gets at 5K+)

Performance is great though, glad Mazda took the suggestions of the people that did the final drive install

I rebuild all the gearboxes for our race team, and I've personally rebuilt dozens of each of the boxes in question. I have some insight into each version.
. . .
As soon as we get one here to play with (hopefully very soon,) I'll let you guys know if the improvements made it in there, and how it holds up for us on the track.
Awesome - thanks for the knowledge Jason.

I thought the 8's tranny is fantastic. Smooth and sure. In contrast the MX5's 6-cog is terrible. No way as good as its 5spd brother.

POS comment rescinded. ;) I like the feel of the tranny and have no issues w/mine. Just a little concerned/irritated by some aspects of it, like the constant smell and frequently noted "fragility" and grinding. All of which feeds my fears of post warranty days w/the 8.

Jason, thank you for all your input.

What exactly do you mean by "overthrowing" a gear?

Great info , Thanks Jason :) :) :)

Now I wonder can I just drop my "old" 6 sp Aisin gear box for the newer Aisin 6 sp box.

Fantastic post. Well, terrible in that now I will be fretting about my gearbox every time I drive her hard....but great info.

I too would like to know what "overthrowing" a gear means....in reagrd to the comment about third gear above. Thanks!

Again Jason,

thanks for the great info and confirmation of the trans type in the 09 car. You are an asset to this forum for sure. Share some more when you have time.

Seal.

wonder who will be the first to 'upgrade' to this transmission. Wonder if the turbo guys will be eyeing these... (as a substitute for the 3rd gen Trannys they're so fond of now)

wonder who will be the first to 'upgrade'

i dont know but ill bet ABBID will be the first to break one :lol2: :lol2: :lol2: :lol: :lol:

When I say 'overthrowing' the gear, I mean pushing the shift hub past where it needs to be to engage the gear. I'm not sure why, but both 3rd and 4th gear on the RX-8 Aisin box are without a 'fence' to keep the hub from going too far. The shift hub slider teeth are what drives the car, and there are matching teeth on the gear itself. When you shift into a gear, you engage the hub (splined to the shaft) to the gear (free spinning on the shaft.) Most gears have a raised flange on the hub-teeth to 'catch' the hub slider and keep it from going too far. Curiously, neither 3rd or 4th in the Aisin box have this flange.

I just built two MX-5 boxes today - and it was a great reminder of how much better it is. Very stout gearbox. And the great thing is that it's not an outsourced Aisin box, it's all Mazda. It's a very nicely designed box. As I said, it has a few flaws, but Mazda is aware of them, and fixing them.

I'll keep this up to date with everything we find out... I know that '09 tranny is still sitting in the tech center at Irvine. Hopefully they will send it to us to test! We'll have the tech notes on the '09 soon too, and that should have the ratios so we can confirm that. Interestingly, the project leader for the car doesn't even know if the ratios are the same yet! :) I'll report back as I get more info!

It will be great if we can drop the current 6sp and use this new one instead.

oh its a moving:) off to tech we go:)

wee!

I may not be the first one to get the tranny but I'll keep my eye on it.

All depends upon my DD and the new sports cars comming out.

At some point I need to stop modding the 8 and concentrate on saving for a new sports car.

Of course I will keep the 8 as a track only car.

Dibs on a new box once i can get it from my dealer or anyone else that can deliver it to my door :)

Dibs on a new box once i can get it from my dealer or anyone else that can deliver it to my door :)

so you can break it ? :lol: :lol: :lol:

The PPF is of course positioned in relation to exhaust position, are you saying that torsional forces are at work differently depending on the side the PPF is placed on?

Here's a controversal statement: Rotaries are harder on gearboxes than piston engines of equal power and even similar power curves.

Seal.

The side the PPF on does change how the torque of the engine is transferred into the transmission case. The twisting of the case in one direction might not cause a problem, but you twist it in the other direction and it will.

Rotaries are definitely harder on gearboxes due to temperature... but the failures that are occurring in RX-8 gearboxes have nothing to do with temp. Also, many have mentioned that 'RPM' could be a factor... again, higher RPM simply means higher heat, and heat isn't killing these things.

The side the PPF on does change how the torque of the engine is transferred into the transmission case. The twisting of the case in one direction might not cause a problem, but you twist it in the other direction and it will.

Rotaries are definitely harder on gearboxes due to temperature... but the failures that are occurring in RX-8 gearboxes have nothing to do with temp. Also, many have mentioned that 'RPM' could be a factor... again, higher RPM simply means higher heat, and heat isn't killing these things.

because it suck :)

Lets just hope that the new box in the 09 version can be use in our 8. I really want some *bullet proof* boxes like the old 5 sp that the rx7 has.

Thanks for the great info. Jason. I too will be interested to find out if the new box will swap with our '04-'08 MTs. Of course that would mean a new combination of gear ratios since we'd have the 4.47 final drive with the '09 gear ratios. Probably not in our favor performance wise since we'd have overall taller gear ratios.

Thanks for the great info. Jason. I too will be interested to find out if the new box will swap with our '04-'08 MTs. Of course that would mean a new combination of gear ratios since we'd have the 4.47 final drive with the '09 gear ratios. Probably not in our favor performance wise since we'd have overall taller gear ratios.

If the ratios are about what we predict them to be, in other words about that of the NC's gearbox, this new gearbox with a 4.444 won't have a huge difference in performance from that of the current box. That makes a swap an attractive proposition if it turns out to be more robust and you're willing to spend the money.

If I pirate this from the OPs post and add in the swap option:



Car (1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th FD)
04-'08' RX-8 (3.760 - 2.269 - 1.645 - 1.187 - 1.000 - 0.843 - 4.440)
09' RX-8 R3 (3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 - 0.832 - 4.770)
09 RX8 gearbox in 04-08 chassis/final drive -(3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 -0.832 - 4.440)

Revs @60, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 8391.9 / 3rd - 6084.1 / 4th - 4390.1 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3117.9
Revs @60, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 8807.4 / 3rd - 6391.2 / 4th -4586.9 / 5th - 3897.1 / 6th - 3242.4

09 in 04-08 RX-8 Rrevs @60- 2nd - 8358 / 3rd - 6065 / 4th - 4353 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3077

All in all not a big change RPM difference wise. I don't have a feel for what that would translate to in acceleration numbers.

Revs @60, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 8391.9 / 3rd - 6084.1 / 4th - 4390.1 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3117.9
Revs @60, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 8807.4 / 3rd - 6391.2 / 4th -4586.9 / 5th - 3897.1 / 6th - 3242.4




3100 rpms at 60mph makes for shitty highway fuel economy on a rotary when driven at average highways speeds (75mph). The 09's economy is really gonna go to shit now with these more rev happy ratios. Mazda needs to re-think the 5th and 6th gear ratios as there is no need for anyone to be doing heavy acceleration on these two gears. These engines have a bad enough reputation for fuel economy as it is. My Fc and Fd run at 3,000 rpm at 75mph and get 27mpg on the highway.

Rotaries are definitely harder on gearboxes due to temperature... but the failures that are occurring in RX-8 gearboxes have nothing to do with temp. Also, many have mentioned that 'RPM' could be a factor... again, higher RPM simply means higher heat, and heat isn't killing these things.

Funny you say this.

Was at Le-Mans in 2002 with the Auto-exe team covering them for an Aussie motoring mag.

Anyway, the team entered two cars. Same chassis, same gearbox.

2lt turbo engine in one, 26B-PP engine in the other.

Similar power from both (26B was choked via a 48mm intake restrictor)

26B version snapped the main shaft on the box on lap-5

2lt turbo version did the complete 24-hr race. No box trouble at all.

Rick Engman suggested at the time, "Rotaries have high Snap-Torque" & can break boxes much easier. We should have upgraded the box in hindsight"

You know boxes behind rotaries Jason. Is this true..........???

Jason,

Great info, thanks for your insights. I'm surprised that the new '09 6th gearing would continue to be so tall, I hope gas mileage doesn't suffer over long trips. I guess Mazda figured they would rather just have the extra zip and said gas mileage be damned. Who knows maybe the found a way to keep mileage the same.

Funny you say this.

Was at Le-Mans in 2002 with the Auto-exe team covering them for an Aussie motoring mag.

Anyway, the team entered two cars. Same chassis, same gearbox.

2lt turbo engine in one, 26B-PP engine in the other.

Similar power from both (26B was choked via a 48mm intake restrictor)

26B version snapped the main shaft on the box on lap-5

2lt turbo version did the complete 24-hr race. No box trouble at all.

Rick Engman suggested at the time, "Rotaries have high Snap-Torque" & can break boxes much easier. We should have upgraded the box in hindsight"

You know boxes behind rotaries Jason. Is this true..........???

Funny you should say that, because I made my original controversial statement based on a conversation between Rick Engman and Dr Francesco Iannetti regarding the pulses generated by a rotary compared to a piston powered car in terms of power being sent to the box as observed with an oscilloscope.

The other reason I think you may see more failures on rotary run gearboxes IS rpm related and was explained to me by David Haskell of Speedsource: No matter how good a synchro box is you need to take your time to shift. At elevated rpms the situation is worsened for impatient drivers. There are more driver caused AISIN RX8 failures than manufacture faults despite the excellent, thorough and professional asessment provided by Jason.

Seal.

I hear what David is saying about RPMs, but it has more to do with RPM drop... a high revving engine that drops to a slow RPM in the next gear will have a harder time than a very small rev drop. The AISIN box had some pretty big rev drops. But many of the problems we see on T3 and Koni Challenge boxes are from the design weaknesses.

Anyway, update... I have the '09 ratios confirmed:

1st
3.815

2nd
2.260

3rd
1.536

4th
1.177

5th
1.000

6th
0.787

Reverse
3.603

Final Drive
4.777

I will update the gear charts and repost sometime over the weekend... unless someone beats me to it! :)

Thanks for your contributions Jason!

Thanks for the info!

I'm in no way quoting David. I'm very fortunate to have him as a friend. I quizzed him on what they do and what can be done over two years ago. I won't go into the details of his prep but the most important and basic thing to me (That would apply across the board, rotary or piston) is speed shifting is a recipe for disaster in a synchro box. Since they've had various drivers in their cars over the years it was obvious that some drivers were much worse than others on the equipment. I'm in full agreement with your assessment by the way.

We can't thank you enough for your contribution Jason. Very good to see those ratios, especially the overdrive.

Seal.

i am pleased to see that 4th got a bump, while 6th (and 3rd) remain effectively the same.

the bump to 5th I don't know what to think - the old 'top speed' was at the top of 5th, right?

So now either:
A) top speed will be lower (at the top of the new 5th)
or
B) top speed will be in 6th somewhere.

Not that i really care about "top speed"; I'd actually prefer more acceleration in 5th between the two choices, but now the quoted drag limited figure in the magazines might go down - i wonder what people will think?

regarding the bump to 1st and 2nd:
any ideas on what that will do to the 0-60 time? (stock VS stock)
- I guess it is OK for NA cars, but my hunch is it will be too much if you add any real power to the car.

whats important here is we get a cruising rpm in 6th gear at 70mph that is the same as the old car, so we shouldn't see a loss of hwy mileage.

Jason, thank you for the data and secret8gent, thank you for the charts!

All of the changes look good to me! Shorter 2nd is nice, that should help out with lower speeds in 2nd. 3rd gear is almost identical, which is also fine.

4th now looks to be nicer/more usable on the hwy (and so is 5th).

Guys, make sure you post this information elsewhere on the site... I don't have the time to correct everyone who whines about the 4.77, and now that there's effectively no change in 6th gear, someone should mention that whenever someone _does_ whine. So, spread the word. Thanks!

before knowing the actual ratios in this new box there was a concern that 6th gear with the 4.77 rear would produce a decline in mpg.

not sure if someone else asked this... and forgive me for the possible "dumb question", but

Is the ring and pinion on the 09 the same as the 04-08? In other words, can I update my current R&P on my 04 with an 09 R&P and get the 4.77 final drive ratio?

Going out on a limb, Id have to say yes.

Seal.

so a mass produced 4.77 gear with mass produced prices that fits? This should be interesting for STU applications (Baggy, if you read this... this is an allowable update right?)

Looks like my trans is going to be replaced...makes me wonder if I'll get the updated version...

Looks like my trans is going to be replaced...makes me wonder if I'll get the updated version...

what is no for 1,000,000 dollars, alex..

but i am glad you are getting a new one!

beers :beer:

Looks like my trans is going to be replaced...makes me wonder if I'll get the updated version...

with those gear ratios and you blowing satans hairdryer, i would hope not. our current tranny ratios arent exactly FI friendly and the new one is even worse IMO

not sure if someone else asked this... and forgive me for the possible "dumb question", but

Is the ring and pinion on the 09 the same as the 04-08? In other words, can I update my current R&P on my 04 with an 09 R&P and get the 4.77 final drive ratio?

I wonder who will be the first to venture this direction. I will be EXTREMELY happy if it indeed works!!!

Was just searching for some info on what gear oil to use in the transmission. We bolted a 6 speed to our 12a bridged 1st gen this year, and have started having some issues with it after about 6 races. We were using just some syn. 80-90, but with the 7.25" clutch, I think the issues are more about the speed drop of the transmission relative to the motor (what Jason was talking about). We are on our way to Spokane for a double race and are going to try some Redline 75-90ns (wanted the 140 but couldn't find it locally). Took it for a lap up the street and it felt really notchy, but it was cold. Hope it helps. We have a cooler on the trans and it runs a consistant 180, just not happy with the shifting.
Chek us out at retroracingteam.com

I wonder who will be the first to venture this direction. I will be EXTREMELY happy if it indeed works!!!

Yep, at least probably much cheaper than the FEED's 4.777 gearing set :)

Was just searching for some info on what gear oil to use in the transmission. We bolted a 6 speed to our 12a bridged 1st gen this year, and have started having some issues with it after about 6 races. We were using just some syn. 80-90, but with the 7.25" clutch, I think the issues are more about the speed drop of the transmission relative to the motor (what Jason was talking about). We are on our way to Spokane for a double race and are going to try some Redline 75-90ns (wanted the 140 but couldn't find it locally). Took it for a lap up the street and it felt really notchy, but it was cold. Hope it helps. We have a cooler on the trans and it runs a consistant 180, just not happy with the shifting.
Chek us out at retroracingteam.com

jeff,

what transmission are you talking about? as this thread is about the 09 transmission..

making sure everyone is on the same page.. if you want info on the redline ns oil. you might search teamrx8. he has posted a bit of info on it..

and good luck!

beers :beer:

So if I'm in the market for an 08 or 09 RX8 for a daily driver with track toy privileges, perhaps I should hold out for the 09 because: 1) stronger transmission all around, 2) 4.77 final drive for a little better in town grunt?

Thoughts?

I don't like the fact that the revs in 6th @ 60 actually went up. That will be even worse for gas mileage.

will the new trans bolt right up?

will the new ring and pinion bolt right up?

has thisbeen discussed already? prolly

Great info , Thanks Jason :) :) :)

Now I wonder can I just drop my "old" 6 sp Aisin gear box for the newer Aisin 6 sp box.

If I pirate this from the OPs post and add in the swap option:



Car (1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th FD)
04-'08' RX-8 (3.760 - 2.269 - 1.645 - 1.187 - 1.000 - 0.843 - 4.440)
09' RX-8 R3 (3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 - 0.832 - 4.770)
09 RX8 gearbox in 04-08 chassis/final drive -(3.815 - 2.260 - 1.640 - 1.177 - 1.000 -0.832 - 4.440)

Revs @60, '04-'08 RX-8 - 2nd - 8391.9 / 3rd - 6084.1 / 4th - 4390.1 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3117.9
Revs @60, '09 RX-8 R3 - 2nd - 8807.4 / 3rd - 6391.2 / 4th -4586.9 / 5th - 3897.1 / 6th - 3242.4

09 in 04-08 RX-8 Rrevs @60- 2nd - 8358 / 3rd - 6065 / 4th - 4353 / 5th - 3698.5 / 6th - 3077

All in all not a big change RPM difference wise. I don't have a feel for what that would translate to in acceleration numbers.

3100 rpms at 60mph makes for shitty highway fuel economy on a rotary when driven at average highways speeds (75mph). The 09's economy is really gonna go to shit now with these more rev happy ratios. Mazda needs to re-think the 5th and 6th gear ratios as there is no need for anyone to be doing heavy acceleration on these two gears. These engines have a bad enough reputation for fuel economy as it is. My Fc and Fd run at 3,000 rpm at 75mph and get 27mpg on the highway.

I'm intrigued by the possibility of a more robust transmission, along with the prospect of a slightly taller 6th speed for use in my 2004; but, I'd hoped for a top gear ratio closer to what the autos have, so unless my transmission grenades out of warranty, I don't think this is going to be the panacea I'd hoped for.

Tangent: does anyone build RX-8 6 speed manual boxes with custom ratios?

http://revo-tune.jp/info/article.php?subaction=showfull&id=1185940257&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&

you tell me, my Nipponese is bad.

http://revo-tune.jp/info/article.php?subaction=showfull&id=1185940257&archive=&start_from=&ucat=1&

you tell me, my Nipponese is bad.

what do you want me to tell you ? :)

Hmm I see they sell this 5.125 rear diff gear ... this is good for NA ... but once you go turbo/Sc this will be completely useless.

one is seals for rotor

other 2 is the gear ratio change.

Damn 5.125!!!!!!

Also, biggest upside to mazda oe FD is keeping my 100k warranty on my tranny that will eventually lose the 4th gear syncro.

I'd love to throw in the 5.125 and lose all possible highway mileage though lol
Out of curiosity, know any way of ordering?

just hand japanparts that link and tell them you want it. lol

oh man, 5.125 would go by quick.

just hand japanparts that link and tell them you want it. lol

oh man, 5.125 would go by quick.

Consider it handed:)

At around US$2,500 for the 5.125:1 Part; I doubt there will be many takers...

The FEED 4.77:1 crownwheel and pinion set is here:

http://www.japanparts.com/db/partslist.php?dealer=6&car=93&middlesmall=&maker=116&volkey=226-009-021

226-009-021 and runs around US$700 ( with our RX8CLUB discount applied ) + Freight

One of our best selling RX8 Parts; we've shipped these to several countries, and ( of course ) these are for the *earlier* Models, not the '09!

GW
JapanpartsLLC

you can get the 5.12 gears here in the US for around $1400

oh hey, i posted that not for the rear end, but to respond to his 'custom ratios' question.

Yep, who the HELL will buy that , not for 2500 bux lol !

I will consider that 4.777 gear when I reach 60-70 K miles, by then it should be a good time to take it down and replace some worn out stuff inside plus this new gear :)

After reading some of this thread from the start it is interesting some 09 RX-8 owners are having 6th gear issues where there has been a change albeit (part number) to the sixth gear ONLY around November 08.

So far mine is OK at 4200 KMS

After reading some of this thread from the start it is interesting some 09 RX-8 owners are having 6th gear issues where there has been a change albeit (part number) to the sixth gear ONLY around November 08.

So far mine is OK at 4200 KMS

it is a know, yet not seen much issue..

beers :beer:

Good Morning Folks.

I'm new here (been lurking a while), and found this thread interesting. I thought I'd try to do a few calculations and play around with a spreadsheet to see what kind of numbers I came up with, but it seems I'm having a few problems. My numbers are not coming up with the same that OP came up with. Please take a look at my calcs and see if you can see my mistake.

225/45R18s

225mm Tread width = a 101.25mm sidewall = a 3.98622" sidewall
Rim Diameter of 18" added = 21.98622" diameter
Circumf = 2*PI*10.99311 = 69.07175"
Inches per mile = 93360 so 93360/69.07175 = 917.307 Revolutions per mile on the tires.

Now if I have my formula correct its:

((Engine RPM / Gear Ratio / Final Drive) * 60 Minutes ) / Revs per Mile

or.. using my 06' RX8 in 6th gear...

((2750 / 0.843 / 4.440 ) * 60) / 917.307 = 48.05722 MPH

I only used this RPM because that is what RPM I run at 55MPH. Obviously I have the formula screwed somewhere. Help please?

JRT

OK.. Figured it out. When I added in the sidewall, I only added it in once. Its the Rim Diam + Sidewall width x 2 for the wheel diameter.

Once corrected, it changed to a 25.9722 diameter, and a 81.59483 Circumfrence.

Plug in the 776.5198 Revolutions per mile and the whole thing comes out a LOT better.

55 MPH comes out to 2664.247 RPM.

Hi Jason, any updates so far about the 09' transmission?

Here is a thread to be moved...to the correct forum.

Over 31,000 and NO Issues..

Here is a thread to be moved...to the correct forum.

Over 31,000 and NO Issues..

Nice. :Peace:

Here is a thread to be moved...to the correct forum.

Over 31,000 and NO Issues..

Powerz !!!