I Own an RX-8, and I love it. I have driven a lot of cars in my 34 years of driving including a Corvette and a tricked out Sunbeam Tiger. I went to a BMW dealership to test drive a BMW for charity(they said $1 paid to Susan Komen Cancer for every mile driven) and asked the salesman "do you have anything that handles as good as my RX-8 ?" (since I have read the M3 is about the same and nothing else by BMW is as good in the handling area). The salesman said the M3 was much better and that he had driven an RX-8 to compare, and that every other BMW on the lot (almost) was better than my RX-8.

So here is the million dollar question to those that have or do own a BMW, and have at least had a GOOD test drive of an RX-8, How does it compare to BMW's line ? Which are better in the handing area ?

The 8 handles way better. I was BMW shopping for three weeks and test drove tons of 330's, z3's and Z4's. I considered them all good handlers till i test drove the 8 and BMW became out of the question. Havent driven an M series.

i owned a 2000 323i. my advice, dont get a bmw. bmws are way overrated. theres really nothing special about them except for the badge, and even that isnt much now a days since everyone here in southern ca drives one. and bmws have A LOT of problems, u gonna be at the dealer a lot to get shit fixed. and bmw owners are incredibly arrogant and snobby people.

if he said that he hadn't driven an 8
________
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i'm sure bmw has come a long ways since i've had mine...an '84 325e :P or was it a 324? jeez it's been so long. since then i've had the chance to drive a z3 3.0, z3 1.9?, 530, 330... i'm scheduled for the susan komen drive on nov 4 and will get to swing around in a z4 and a 745 or something like that.

as i recall the z3 handled quite nicely, even the weak ones when they first came out. the current 3-series are actually surprisingly nimble, they *feel* light, and then you look at the speedometer and realize you're actually not going that fast, it just *feels* fast

looks are always going to be subjective...i mean there are people who don't like the looks of the FD... shrug, boggles the mind but as far as handling goes, i've not driven a bmw that handles as well as the rx-8 that isn't to say one doesn't exist. i've not driven a new m3 or z4 yet.

and if you don't plan on keeping stock suspension, i think the rx-8 has more potential as a platform for handling than the bimmers.

I currently own a BMW 3 series Coupe (a lowly 318Ci) and can honestly say that I am really dissapointed with it.

BMW build quality is supposed to be legendary. My car is just over 2 years old, low milage (I do less than 8000 miles/year) and so far:

- had front wishbones replaced.
- been in 3 times for a parking brake fault which still isn't fixed.
- had the brake fluid changed at less than 9,000 miles.
- the passenger door linkage broke and wouldn't open from the outside.
- the rear shocks/suspension just started to get noisy - somethings wrong there too.

And worst of all, in common with many BMW's, there are so many squeeks and rattles, it sounds as if you are driving about with a cage full of angry Chipmunk's....

I'm trading it in for an 8!

I drove a 1999 (e46) 328i and think the RX-8 handles much better. I switched from a 1997 Prelude SH into that car and thought the prelude had better handling as well.

The BMW was nice, but expensive, and VERY costly to maintain.

Much happier with the RX-8.

My M3 handles like a dream, but honestly, the 8 owns it. 5 minutes behind the wheel of my first 8, and I was 4 wheel drifting it around clover-leaf on-ramps. I wouldn't try that in my M3, it pushes a bit, making me a little hesitant to try anything fun on the street. The 8 was perfectly balanced however.

As far as total grip, my M3 'might' be a touch higher ... but only because of significantly fatter tires. As far as balance and feel, the 8 is way ahead.

Why are salesmen so stupid? Why do they think making completely unfounded sweeping statements will help to sell a car?
I would have far more time or respect for a saleman who pointed out the positive aspects of their car, and left you to make up your own mind on which is better. Fools.

I had a '97 328is (E36) and have to say that I loved it. I kept it for 2 and a half years and then traded it in on the RX-8. I put about 24,000 miles on the 328. It drove very nicely, but it's more a sport-luxury sedan than an sports sedan. It handled well, but not as well at the RX-8. It had more low end torque, but less HP. Both are VERY smooth at high speed. I wanted something sportier and less expensive to maintain (BMW maintenance is $$$). Gotta give the BMW service guys points for keeping you coddled....but you end up paying for it! I'll tell you this....I get more looks and attention in the RX-8 than I ever did in the Bimmer. My GF tells me that people are constantly checking me out on the road (I like to keep my eyes on the road rather than on the people in cars around me). Does any of this help?

Originally posted by markfw
asked the salesman "do you have anything that handles as good as my RX-8 ?"
Let me get this straight, you asked the BMW salesman which BMW handled better than an RX-8 and his response was "all of them do". What a surprise.

I own and have owned M3's, M5, X5, 7 searies and even a Z8. They all handle quite well and do somethings better than the RX-8 and perhaps some things not as good. One thing that stands out is the feeling of sure footedness and security you get driving a BMW. I can't say I feel the same way in the RX-8. On the other hand the RX-8 feels light and nimble.

Originally posted by goodyrx8
even a Z8.

GAGA :eek:

Originally posted by markfw
The salesman said the M3 was much better and that he had driven an RX-8 to compare, and that every other BMW on the lot (almost) was better than my RX-8.

Well I'm cancelling my RX8 order immediately. I mean if you can't trust the word of someone who makes 80% of their income on commission from selling BMW's to tell you that BMW's are better than any other car, who can you trust?

Now lets see, which beemer can I get for the same money in the UK. A 520i, wow what a car, so undestictive and absolute bottom of the range. At least I can be just like everyone else driving two inches apart in the outside lane, in a car which is massively overvalued and overrated.

Cheers
---Dave

I forgot to mention that 30 seconds after driving my RX-8 onto the BMW lot, two salesman came over to look at it. I don;t know if you can see my plate number in my Avatar, but it is "04 RX-8", and they were discussing how dumb it would be if that wasn't the car (the rear was toward them where the RX-8 is also, so I don;t know what they were smoking). I wasn't really looking for any input, since from what I read on the forum the average opionion seems to be that the M3 (or is it M6) is about even in handing, and the rest of the beemer line is a little below that to some degree. What I found asounding was his unfounded statement that they were all better ! He says he has driven on, but now that I think about it, I doubt it. (he had to look to confirm what it was???)

Anyway, the concensus appears to continue (on average). I just wanted a confirmation since previous threads weren't quite as focused on my comparison.

Edit: and my fucus was only on handling, not upkeep (high on BMW), power, (BMW M3 is more) and price (BMW is a LOT more) IMO

Well, I have been currently looking at new RX8s and used M3s.

As far as power. No comparison on m3s from 2001 and beyond. The m3 will torch the rx8 (no big suprise) its got around 333HP and tons of torque.

Handling and feel... rx8 feels better in twists in turns IMO, but the m3 isn't too shabby. It (m3) definitely feels heavier. Straight/Highway driving isn't much different. The rx8 has a nimble feel, the m3 more of a "under control" feel.

Price. M3 ..... can you say OUCH! To get one you want (a >2001 model with decent options) is expensive. Somewhere between 10-30 grand more depending on year and options (M3 convertible is the priciest). The rx8 is close to a steal at its price range. The only things that keep it from being that is the slight hp disadvantage to "the other white meat" cars everyone knows about, and fuel economy (MPG). These aren't killers, but it does average out the price a bit.

SMG. This is THE option on the m3 i like. I really wish the rx8 had it. And I don't mean that trip-tronic torque converter crap. Some ppl may be purists, but me, I like the manual decisions without the hassle (f1 style). Turning the M3 SMG to aggressive mode is awesome. Can't beat those shift times. And then you have the options of auto models as well for traffic driving. Hell I'd pay aftermarket prices for that on a RX8!

Finally ..... m3 price.... ouch..:) Can't help but mention that twice.

PS. The price issue aside, I am still looking around for used M3s with the SMG option, mainly because its so dam fun to drive. The rx8 is the next highest on my list. Farther down the list is a stock WRX if i decide to go the cheapest route and still get a decent car with some power (a little basic though).

Originally posted by boarder
SMG. This is THE option on the m3 i like. I really wish the rx8 had it.

RX-8 WILL have it, by the 2006 model year (I don't know if the 05s will have it yet, but definitely in 06). RX-8 will also have a 5 spd auto in 06 to replace the current 4 speed auto, for those who prefer their transmissions real slushy.

Regards,
Gordon

Thats really cool, but .... its not on there now for those of us who need to get a new car relatively soon ! I want it now, and its all about my needs :)

Oh, and any info on where you got that news ? What kind will it be ? How it works ?

Dave

RX8 is lighter better steering wheel feeling, handles not as good as M3, that could be becaue M3 have hotter set up from stock.

I will drive a Bimmer because less people have it. but if just talking about $ to $, rx8 is better bang for the buck.

Hi all;

I'm currently the owner of a '98 BMW M3, looking to buy an RX-8 GT 6MT sometime next year. My previous car was a '95 M3, which I campaigned to Solo II ESP class champion at my local SCCA chapter in 2000. That being said, I know a little about handling.

After a short, but very rewarding test drive in the RX-8 I can confidently say it meets or exceeds the E36 M3 in almost every handling aspect I consider important. It is a very well balanced, superbly tuned car.

There are a few things the E36 M3 does better: transitions and steering feedback. The M3 is slightly better composed during quick transitions. The steering gives a slightly more vivid picture of the contact patches. Other than that, the RX-8 has everything else covered. It is distinctly better balanced under power --the M3 will push hard in the tight stuff unless you have a disciplined right foot. The 8 has better initial turn-in (probably lower polar moment due to lower weight of the Renesis) and its overall cornering speeds are slightly higher.

Compared to other, more contemporary BMWs like the Z4 3.0i and the E46 M3, the 8 still compares very well. The newer M3 is tough to drive smoothly at the limit, flopping between understeer and power-oversteer. The 8 is much easier to balance.

The Z4 is actually a very very fine handling car..and probably a closer match for the 8 than the M3. The 8 has better steering though. Other Bimmers, like the Sport suspensioned 3-Series are close, but not really quite as good. But the New 5 series is a handling champ, believe it or not.

Anyway, the price of entry on the RX8 is much lower than a 330 and you get a lot of sports car goodness for your money. That's why instead of going with another BMW, I'm probably going to get into the 8.


///M-Spec

PS- To the guy with the 323i who about dumped on BMWs: sorry your experience with your Bimmer wasn't up to your expectations, but that's no reason to throw petty insults at other BMW owners.

Originally posted by HKRX8

I will drive a Bimmer because less people have it. but if just talking about $ to $, rx8 is better bang for the buck.

are you joking?

let me clarify

bimmers are nice
but where I live in cali I see tons of them daily

I bought an M Roadster in 2000. Imola Red over Imola Red/Black, the car was my dream and extremely hot. Accerleration was absolutely stunning, power on demand, no need to wind the engine out.

Quality was mediocre at best; body panel fits were not great, interior materials were ok, top leaked constantly and had to be replaced, M badges turned from red to pink (embarassing), stereo not only was awful but rattled...

Handling was good -- car was all engine, brakes and tires -- but not great, sometimes scary.

Got rid of the car when I became the father of triplets -- have dreamed of getting it back ever since. That is until my RX-8 -- better in every way (except acceleration) than my M Roadster for roughly $15k less.

I am extremely satisfied with the RX-8.

I traded in my bmw 2000 328i and i had the premium/sports package. I think the handling on the bmw is great. RX8 is great too, but what i miss about my BMW are the comfort/practicality that it gives me. Like in rx8 the only one touch is to bring down the window down on the drivers side. In the BMW all the windows, including the moonroof is one touch down/up. Also, since in a rotary engine we need to check the oil rather frequently i don't know why the hood wasn't made to be one touch either. Also, i think the key and the alarm should have been combined. Even the 2004 accord has this. I know a lot of people say that the maintenace is expensive on the BMW, i personally never had to pay for any maintance cause i traded it in before the maintenance program was over. The car never gave me any problems and sometimes when i get a loaner car when i do my oil change (which i only have to do every 15,000miles) i get a nicer car than the one i have.

For now i'll enjoy my rx8 though...

eh those are petty little features

I own a 2002 540i and a Ti 8. Although I love both cars, the BMW is still king! The 540i could climb walls if possible!

This is what pisses me off about some of these forums - dumbass, ignorant people who can't be honest even with themselves.

I love my RX8 - 04 Red/Black/6-spd/GT/App/Roty - it's a great car. The shifter-clutch feel is probably the best I have ever driven. I love the way it looks from the front, the flares are awesome. Handles great. Interiors cool. Makes me smile. However, steering and road feel are sadly lacking.

I also have a 2003 M3 6-spd. Anyone who claims that a RX8 will OVERALL out perform an M3 is either an idiot or delusional. They probably have never driven both vehicles. To be fair to the RX8, it should be flattered to be mentioned in the same breath as an M3, and people should take this as a big compliment.

People shouldn't/don't buy BMWs because they are the greatest handling cars/fastest cars/most luxurious cars etc....but they do buy them because they are 'true driving' cars that an enthusiast can appreciate. They offer the best overall driving experience - and they offer something that no other car manufacturer on the planet can quite duplicate. That is FEEL. The combination of balance, handling, steering, control and road-feedback that combine to make what a BMW is all about. I don't have much experience with the 5/7/X5 but all BMWs have that special something, especially the 3.

There is a well known saying within the automative industry that states "There is only one truism in this business. Those who question the ability of the BMW 3 series are either idiots or infidels." Just a thought.

Still love my 8 though.

3 series is definitely overrated and overpriced. Id rather have an A4!

That is not an intelligent comment russel. My brother owns a 330ci 5 speed. This is by far one of the most under rated cars of all time. Handling is top notch, same level as the rx8. Believe it or not, it is also as fast as the rx8. Now, as far as M3's go, I belive with 8ight. My dad owns an 03, 6 speed right now and no car i have ever driven even comes close. He used to have an 02' m3 w/ SMG, but traded it back for his current car. The STick is just more fun to drive than the SMG. All of that aside, I still feel the RX-8 is a great car and am strongly considering getting one of these in May/June, depending on how well I do in school. Pleaes, if any of you have negative comments on the RX-8 that might lead me away from it, please let me know. I dont want to spend thirty grand on something I wont like. Thanks!

sorry, dont know what I was thinking. Replace the word belive with agree. whoops.

I dont' think its fair to compare an rx8 to bmw. I enjoy my rx8 but its doesn't come close to a bmw. You do pay more for a bmw, but you get what you pay for. I would have gotten an m3 over an rx8 but I couldn't afford an m3. Maybe when I'm more financialy secured I can revisit the m3 as an option.

I got an rx8 and i'm having fun with it. Its enjoyable to drive.

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
steering feedback. The steering gives a slightly more vivid picture of the contact patches.

My opinion also. It's unfortunate that the EPAS trades-off some feedback.

BMW's steering feel is the best in the business. But I haven't drive any new porsche's lately. ;)

I traded my BMW 328is Coupe (Nikasil affected) for an RX8 - the BMW was a great car to drive but the RX8 is even better. The RX8's performance, handling, and steering is superb and that awesome redline is something else.

Anyway, I won't be heading back to BMW as they screwed me big time with their Nikasil problem. If you're ever contemplating buying a used BMW - don't! See this link for more info..
Nikasil (http://www.lestac.co.uk/bmw/nikasil.htm)

i owned a bmw in the past....

The BMW has a heavier feel on the turns. It also seems that you can't cut a corner like in the 8. I honestly loved the BMW..... but the Rx8 out handles the BMW ....... hands down!

Thought about a BMW. Based on where I live, I was told by a friend I'd be crazy to buy one:

http://www.geocities.com/anticalgarybmw/MSIE/

Got the 8.

I'm chiming in a little late, but here's my opinion.

I owned a 2000 328i with the Sport package (sportier suspension and 17" wheels). It was a 5-spd manual. That car was fantastic, I can't praise enough BMW's silky smooth inline 6 engine, the whole package made for a VERY sporty 4-door sedan. But that's just it, it was still a sedan and it handled like one.

The RX-8 is overall the best car I've ever owned OR driven! The handling is superb, braking is stellar, the rotary (though it doesn't have the raw torque of the BMW inline 6) is smooth and powerful, and the looks make heads turn!

For comparison, here are some of the other cars I've owned and driven (not the full list):

Owned:
two Saturns
1998.5 Audi A4 1.8T (chipped up to 180hp)

Driven:
1998 Mercedes SLK 230 (185hp supercharged 4-cyl)
2002 Mercedes SLK 32 AMG (349hp supercharged V6)
2003 Infiniti G35 Coupe
2003 Infiniti FX35

I bought a '96 328is new, paid $36K and drove it 5 years. The car was solid and fairly quiet MPG was city 20-22 and hwy 27-31 depending on A/C use etc.

The E36 I believe is more of a benchmark suspension. I remember when the E46 came out and 3 major reviews on the car said suspension was too soft - gone the way of the masses, etc. Anyway, my mindset was that BMW was my brand for life.

When I started shopping for a car in 2001 and then latter this summer I drove a 323 w/standard suspension, 323 w/sport pkg, 328is and a 330i sedan, 528 (used) and 525 (new) - all standard shift and with both suspensions (except for the 328is and used 528)

(I'm older than 25 so they let me drive em!)

anyway,

The BMW's in their base suspension lean quite a bit (I think it is called yaw) and the suspension is truly soft. CONTROLLED but soft. The newer E46 suspension is much softer in its standard form than the standard form E36 - this also confirmed in the pro reviews. The sport suspensions make the cars perform like they should anyway. As far as drive handling is concerned I would have to agree that the RX8 is a better driver. When you start changing lanes, making the curves, and even goind down the highway in a crosswind the RX8 handles beautifully. My 328is was the first car I owned that was truly a challenge to drive in an interstate Hwy crosswind - it really wandered. I loved that car though to drive as I do the 8 but the 8 has way more power and it handles better for sure. It also does not seem as heavy at the wheel as the BMW's. That's about all I can express.

I have owned a 1992 325, a 1992 318c, a 1997 328c a 1997 Z3, and a 1999 328. All were good handling cars for their class. However, in my opinion, they did not handle as well a my (now former) RX8.

i believe yaw refers to rotation about the z/vertical axis. body roll is just body roll. i don't really know how to feel/judge yaw in the car, only heard the magazines mention it here and there. the whole smaller polar moment of inertia PR effects yaw since less inertia means the vehicle turn in/yaws faster and easier. like a miata turns in immediately (a la go-cart) while a heavier vehicle will have lower turn-in response.

i was lucky enough to drive an e46 m3, a 530, and and x5 through work and they all have great steering precision and engines. since we're talking about cars i'll get on the soap box for a while. steering precision/feel and handling are different metrics in my opinion. steering is a result of the rack and pinion design, steering linkage geometry, the hydraulic valve design, etc. questions i ask myself when evaluating cars: is there linear torque build up when steering wheel angle or lateral g' increase, is there a dead spot on-center, any "free play" when steering, how easy is it to make subtle corrections at highway speeds, how much feedback do you get through the wheel.

handling is the result of suspension geometry, CG's, spring and shock tuning, type of tires. etc.

bmw's and miata's have great steering. i was disappointed with the rx8 i test drove because of the on-center dead spot. i was expecting a lot more from the people that designed the miata's steering.

the rx8 definitely feels composed and has agile handling. a very well-rounded car. it feels like a larger miata. steering and engine torque were the shortcomings.

Julian, you seem to be a calculating and analytical person. Here is some information.

The RX 8 and the rotary for that matter, provide a different driving experience and expectation. I have learned this myself in owning one. Revs are MORE important than on a piston engine and the sound is also different (some people shift by ear) and requires a re-training for the driver. These points - revving up and shifting points effect ALL CARS and their performance outcome. On a test drive many people do not come to the experience considering these requirements in the RX8 and try to drive it as they would a "piston based vehicle" and shift early. Naturally the engine to this person would not have any torque.

Now, mind you, if you observe the stated torque specification of 159 foot lbs.@ 5500 RPM it's easy to say that the engine has little torque.

but

there is one point forgotten - High RPM and GEARING to increase that figure.

Paul Frere , a noted sports car officiando, says of the RX8,
"Looking at the engine's performance figures, a maximum torque of 159 ft lbs. seems weak for an engine... but it must be remembered that the rotary revs noticeably faster than comparable piston engines, calling for a much shorter top gear ratio. Calculating the maximum torque available in top gear at the driving wheels, it turns out that it ranges between the figures of a 228 bhp Porsche Boxter and a 260 bhp Boxster S, surely good company."

The Porsche Boxster torque is 192 ft lbs
The Porsche Boxster S torque is 229 ft lbs

The actual torque Frere says is between these two using RPMs and gearing - neither of which are acheived without accessing the RPMS.

Now let's compare BMW specifications

The 325/525 engines have 175 ft lbs @3500 rpm
The 330/530 engines have 214 ft lbs @3500 rpm

These engines provide torque a a relatively low RPM so that a driver would feel the pull at a low speed and "learn" to drive that way. VW/Audi engines are the same way - sacrifice high speed torque for lower speed torque - Take a Passat, or a 325 out on the hwy and go to pass - can't get to the lower RPM for the grunt so you struggle at the torque fall off point to accelerate.

Now, about Physics. The car has perfect weight balance - no BMW has that and a low center of gravity - uniquely acheived by the small engine and overall design. Mazda's structural goal p.42 of the RX8 book was to measureably meet or exceed the M3- in torsional rigidity they equalled, surpassed the M3 in bending stiffness.

Steering? The 5 series was the best driving car I had EVER driven- felt like you were driving on rails or something - better than the 3 series to me - the RX 8 has that feeling to me. I know what you mean about center but that center feel on the 8 is like a notch hole - great.

You see, the issue here is that BMW has been selling fabulous cars (I owned em too) but at a premium price. The RX8 is less luxury but every bit the perfomance and then some of any BMW in its range. I did not bother with going above the 3.3 liter since the next prrogression would allow a Mazda owner to purchase two RX8's for the price of one BMW and that would not be fair to BMW. Really the same is true for motorcycles - Honda Valkyrie or Gold wing is great, but some put their nose up and say give me my BMW cycle as they throw their leg over their mint green painted gas tank with the propeller emblem and ride off in the sunset. You can pay more but greater performance is not guaranteed by nameplate. Just consider BMW/Nikasil.

THIS IS MESSED UP, you guys are comparing a M3 for rx-8

330Ci - RX-8

M3 - MazdaSpeed RX-8

now thats a fair comparasion... and Mazdaspeed will handle better then M3.

Read

I am not comparing just stating the facts.

The RX8 book states that the frame/suspension is equal and superior to the M3 as stated p.42 Yamaguchi.

Not opinion


FACT

ok, I haven't read all the intermediate replies which seem to have taken a tangent onto some kind of religious war. Getting back to the original question without malice or ire "to those that have or do own a BMW, and have at least had a GOOD test drive of an RX-8, How does it compare to BMW's line ? Which are better in the handing area?"

My wife drives a 2000 323; I had a Honda Odyssey, so naturally I wanted to drive the beemer at any opportunity. After getting the '8 I have no desire whatsover to drive the 323, and will find any excuse not to. The wife doesn't drive stick so there is no option to swap cars, thank goodness.

The BMW is a heavy, bloated rattletrap. It feels and drives heavy and has no prestige since every gardener and secretary in town drives one. It's got endless squeaks and rattles, leather is heavy and stiff, layout of dash and controls is not especially inspirational, maintenance is hugely expensive not to mention repairs. I will say the engine is smooth and powerful, but so what. Maybe it's just a question of personality, and the '8 suits me better. It is fun to drive; the 323 is just a ride.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
ok, I haven't read all the intermediate replies which seem to have taken a tangent onto some kind of religious war. Getting back to the original question without malice or ire "to those that have or do own a BMW, and have at least had a GOOD test drive of an RX-8, How does it compare to BMW's line ? Which are better in the handing area?"

Read mine then. Its in the fourth post on PG2.


Originally posted by 8_wannabe
My wife drives a 2000 323; I had a Honda Odyssey, so naturally I wanted to drive the beemer at any opportunity. After getting the '8 I have no desire whatsover to drive the 323, and will find any excuse not to. The wife doesn't drive stick so there is no option to swap cars, thank goodness.

The BMW is a heavy, bloated rattletrap. It feels and drives heavy and has no prestige since every gardener and secretary in town drives one. It's got endless squeaks and rattles, leather is heavy and stiff, layout of dash and controls is not especially inspirational, maintenance is hugely expensive not to mention repairs. I will say the engine is smooth and powerful, but so what. Maybe it's just a question of personality, and the '8 suits me better. It is fun to drive; the 323 is just a ride.


Sorry you don't like your wife's 323i. But using the entry level car to judge the entire BMW brand doesn't make any sense at all. That's like driving me a base, auto 2000 Protoge and then concluding that Mazda don't know how to build a sports car.



///M-Spec

Originally posted by RodsterinFL
The E36 I believe is more of a benchmark suspension. I remember when the E46 came out and 3 major reviews on the car said suspension was too soft - gone the way of the masses, etc. Anyway, my mindset was that BMW was my brand for life.

SNIP

The BMW's in their base suspension lean quite a bit (I think it is called yaw) and the suspension is truly soft. CONTROLLED but soft. The newer E46 suspension is much softer in its standard form than the standard form E36 - this also confirmed in the pro reviews. The sport suspensions make the cars perform like they should anyway.


RodsterinFL, I do agree that the earlier E46s (99-mid '02) did have pretty sorry suspension calibration. Even the sport models had signifigant body roll and didn't inspire confidence like an E36 sport. Bottom line is that they were too soft in jounce and needed stiffer sway bars.

That being said, it should be noted that BMW had some signifigant changes in late '02 that addresses a lot of these issues, and the latest E46s are exactly where they should be. A 330Ci sport w/18" wheel option is an excellent handling car.

But I do agree that the RX-8 is superior to non-M BMWs (ZHP 330 excepted) in almost every area, except perhaps transitional handling. From a pure mechanical grip stand-point, it bests even the M3.


///M-Spec

Thanks Mspec for you replies.

I think we can agree on your last sentence : from a pure non mechanical grip stand point, the RX8 beats the latest M3.

Would like your opinion on something : In another thread, I stated that the FUN factor was higher in the 8. It seems we disagree here, but what surprises me is that so far you are the only one who owns or tested (car mags) an M3 to say it was perfect on the emotional experience.

Could you tell me in which aspect you really think this car is giving more fun than the 8 ?? Don't want to argue there, just that it's interesting.

IMHO, coming from sport motorcycle, I retrieve in the 8 (sound, revs, handling, light?) some of these extraodinary emotions I had.

On the other hand, my experience with the latest M3 (and their salesguys) was deceptive. But I recognize that on a pure efficiency level, the latest M3 are among the best car on the planet. With 911, M5, and some others :)

Stephan

Originally posted by ///M-Spec
Sorry you don't like your wife's 323i. But using the entry level car to judge the entire BMW brand doesn't make any sense at all. That's like driving me a base, auto 2000 Protoge and then concluding that Mazda don't know how to build a sports car.

Who's judging the whole line? The man asked for BMW owners to rate their experience and that's what I did. He can do with the info what he pleases.

Originally posted by Stephan
Would like your opinion on something : In another thread, I stated that the FUN factor was higher in the 8. It seems we disagree here, but what surprises me is that so far you are the only one who owns or tested (car mags) an M3 to say it was perfect on the emotional experience.

Could you tell me in which aspect you really think this car is giving more fun than the 8 ?? Don't want to argue there, just that it's interesting.

Stephan


Stephan;

For the record, I never stated the M3 was more fun to drive than the 8. It does a couple of things better than the 8, but I think overall the 8 is a little better... especially given the pricing difference between the cars.

It's hard to make a conclusion on fun to drive given my short time behind the wheel. I had about 50 minutes in the 8, and conditions permitting, I slid the car around enough to be very impressed with it.

If there's a single character difference I can pin-point between the way BMWs handle and the way an 8 handles, its the feeling of weight. BMWs tend to feel quite substantial and stable, even for their size, and that translates into cornering as well. In some cases it inspires great confidence, in some cases, I find myself waiting for the car to get where I need it to be.

The 8 feels to me like the opposite of that. Its turn-in is more immediate, the chassis a little more fluid. You can link the corners, where as in the M3, you're make a distinct transition into each one. The M3 is about ruthless, brutal efficiency, where as the 8 seems more fluid or ...organic.. for the lack of a better term. Hope that makes sense.


///M-Spec

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Who's judging the whole line? The man asked for BMW owners to rate their experience and that's what I did. He can do with the info what he pleases.

You're right. I did read into your statements, whether you intend it or not. I had confused you with the other 323 owner in this thread.


///M-Spec

Thanks ! Understood your statement now.

And this confirm my driving impressions : You really can think you are on a sport motorcycle on 4 wheels in a 8, while the M3 are more about the traditionnal BMW experience - a lot more about electronic and large tires, less about the structure of the car itself.

And I don't speak about the brake issue still not solved on M3 :)

Stephan

well, I didn't say it the RX8 bible did!

regarding the several comments here "religious war" "I do agree that the mid 99- '02 E46 suspensions were soft"


The point is that the question was raised as to comparison handling of BMW's vs. RX8.

The information I shared in reply are from my personal experiences and from expert reports.

As far as agreeing with me about the E46 ///MSpec, basically BMW models change about every 6 years. So the fact that the E46 was, as you say, softer calibration, as you agreed, but now they have changed is somewhat of an afterthought on BMW's part since the model life is nearly over in a year or so. Therefore, my conclusion on the E46 suspension actually is pretty accurate for the model line as a whole. Perhaps they are beginning to test something for the next iteration - E56?

As far as the newest "sport" models go, sure, they handle well but how much does one have to pay for that extra "sport" designation? When you compare an RX8 to cars which cost SO much more - well, that in itself is a fallacy. The RX8 wins by default. If someone said to me, Pick one, - RX8 GT with $10K cash in the glove box or a BMW 330i sport, I would pick the RX8 any day.

The issue is not to just put down BMW - they handle well. They are a good car. They require lots of money to own and maintain (maint, insurance, etc.) In comparison though as the thread states, by Mazda's specs, the RX8 is every bit of a handler to any of the 3 series cars which just so happen to be BMW's best handlers.

Stephan, Mazda's specifications state that the RX8 is equal to or better than an M3 in "structure itself" this is not my opinion but rather Mazda's own testing results.

///Mspec

BMWs tend to feel quite substantial and stable, even for their size, and that translates into cornering as well. In some cases it inspires great confidence, in some cases, I find myself waiting for the car to get where I need it to be.

This is exactly how I "felt" and similarly described my experience in the seat of the 350Z. Only I said it was heavy feeling and cumbersone IN COMPARISION to the RX8. If I had been unfamiliar with the 8 I would have probably thought the 350Z to be fantastic. It handles well, but...

The fluid feel you mentioned of the 8 is a sign of a better driving car - communication to the car. You said it perfectly of BMW when you said waiting for the car to get where I need it to be! That is why the physics of the RX8 being nearly perfect for performance, make it such a contender to these more expensive cars. Can't beat physics. Now, when the Mazdaspeed 8 comes, I am sure it will surpass the M3 in power as well.

Originally posted by HKRX8

I will drive a Bimmer because less people have it. but if just talking about $ to $, rx8 is better bang for the buck.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

are you joking?
let me clarify

bimmers are nice
but where I live in cali I see tons of them daily

---------------
I am in Cali too, I am not talking about a 323 328 330 525 528 530 E36 M3 etc what so ever and yes even 5406spd I see more often now, at least once per day, and yes u see those trash 1 everyday, everywhere and everyone has either 1 of them even the guy clean the street.

then what are you talking about?

Remember, E36 M3 was voted to be the best handling car in the world in 1997, over Viper, Porsche, Lambo, Farrari, .....Current M3's handling is poor compared to the previous gen's.

FYI
I have a 93 Yellow RX7 with 380HP and a
97 Yellow M3 Coupe

Is anyone here drove the Z3 coupe or the M coupe? It supposed to be the best handler in the bimmer camp. I just wonderin' how they stack up against the 8 as far as handling is concerned.

Originally posted by tschangrx7
Remember, E36 M3 was voted to be the best handling car in the world in 1997, over Viper, Porsche, Lambo, Farrari, .....Current M3's handling is poor compared to the previous gen's.

FYI
I have a 93 Yellow RX7 with 380HP and a
97 Yellow M3 Coupe

Have you test driven the new RX-8 ? If not, please do and reply with your thoughts in comparison. I think if you read thru this thread like I have (I started it) you will find that the "average" opinion is that the RX-8 is about equal to the best BMW has in the handling area. They don't have quite the HP of the M3, but they handle great, driving is fun and relatively affordable.

First of all, I'll say I hate the Z-series BMW's...

Secondly, I'll say that the 3 series is about the best all-around car you 'll find. They seat 4 people easily, you can see out of them, they have good-sized trunks with the option of fully folding rear seats.

On a 1000 mile road trip a few years ago,I put a racing ten speed bike, a duffle full of cycling gear, a body bag-sized duffle full of clothes, an iMac, an espresso machine, and a bunch of small things in one, and I could still see out all the windows. Additionally, they're very classy vehicles.

They drive better than any other sedan. The inline 6 is a classic engine. It's incredibly smooth - just like a rotary,but it makes much better low and mid rev power. And, they get excellent gas mileage - the current 330i gets 30mpg highway. The 6 sounds incredible on the highway; it's like a leonine symphonic snarl.

BMW has mastered suspension design that is comfortable yet gives great, neutral handling. They take pains to achieve 50/50 weight distribution. And, the interiors are beautiful. Someone just needs to take the current design chief, Chris Bangle, and fire his sorry *ss. His designs are ruining BMW.

The RX8 is a totally different beast. It's much lower to the ground, so it's roll motions will feel different, more lateral, if you will. The rotary is also a smooth engine but lacking in low end torque. The RX, in my opinion, is over-styled, a little too look at me, but the overall shape is very pretty. It doesn't need the rotor motifs, or the two tone interior, or the rice-y tail lights. The 3rd gen RX-7 was so purposeful and pretty and it had none of these styling cues.The RX is also at least 300 pounds lighter than a 3 series so it will feel more tossable.

I'll be buying a new car next spring and I can't afford a new 330ci coupe @ $42k. So I'm looking at the Lexus IS300 and the RX-8. My first car was a '84 RX-7 GSL-SE with the 13B. I loved it, and I've always appreciated the rotor motor and Mazda's take on what a sports car should be.

I know the Lexus will be more practical, get better gas mileage, be more reliable, hold its value better, less "look at me", and it's got a silky smooth inline 6 just like the Beemer.

But the RX is really calling me. It's a great car and it's different from all the rest.

I have owned a 325i, 330CI, and most recently a 540i 6 speed BMW. (All gone now). Unlike some posters I had no large scale issues with any car. Of these three the 330CI came closest to the RX8 in terms of flat handling. The 3.3l six and 5.4l V8 are really fine engines. The V8's redline was close to 7000 RPM after Dinan modifications, smooth all the way and could pull hard.

However, for the money the RX8 is really hard to beat. The styling, the engine, the fun. Zoom Zoom...

Rodsterin, I can see we agree on the key issue, but I couldn't help but disagree with a few of your details:


Originally posted by RodsterinFL
well, I didn't say it the RX8 bible did!

Said what?


Originally posted by RodsterinFL
The point is that the question was raised as to comparison handling of BMW's vs. RX8.

A perfectly reasonable thing to ask, but has a built-in fallacy: which BMW? They do not all handle alike. There's a BIG difference between a 325 with all-season tires, no limited slip, on a base suspension and an M3 CSL with Pilot Sport Cups.



Originally posted by RodsterinFL
...the fact that the E46 was, as you say, softer calibration, as you agreed, but now they have changed is somewhat of an afterthought on BMW's part since the model life is nearly over in a year or so.

No, not an afterthought. It was BMW realizing they made an error in judgement and addressing the issue.

The E46 sedan will be replaced in 2005 by the E90 as an '06. Which means the revised suspension will have been offered in the 3-Series for four model years in the sedan, five in the coupe.


Originally posted by RodsterinFL
As far as the newest "sport" models go, sure, they handle well but how much does one have to pay for that extra "sport" designation? When you compare an RX8 to cars which cost SO much more - well, that in itself is a fallacy. The RX8 wins by default. If someone said to me, Pick one, - RX8 GT with $10K cash in the glove box or a BMW 330i sport, I would pick the RX8 any day.

This is pretty much exactly the choice I'm about to make as well. Cost being a factor, the RX-8 is simply a better value than a 330i. This is why after 4 BMWs, I'm going with the 8. Cost being less a factor, I would have chosen a 330i ZHP.



Originally posted by RodsterinFL
The issue is not to just put down BMW - they handle well. They are a good car. They require lots of money to own and maintain (maint, insurance, etc.)

Misconception. A new BMW costs you zero maint. in the first three years of ownership except for tires and wiper blades. BMW pays for everything else.


Originally posted by RodsterinFL
The fluid feel you mentioned of the 8 is a sign of a better driving car - communication to the car.

This is in interesting, if not slightly loaded statement. My choice of the word "fluid" was not to imply superiority, but rather to characterize and contrast the way the 8 handles, as compared to my BMW.

Like I said in my other posts, there are many things the 8 does better than my M3, but there are some things the M3 is still the benchmark.



Originally posted by RodsterinFL
Now, when the Mazdaspeed 8 comes, I am sure it will surpass the M3 in power as well.

I will be surprised if it manages 400+ hp, which is what the M3 will be making by the time the Mazdaspeed RX-8 comes down the pipeline. The normal 8 already has trouble delivering the promised 247. But we'll see..


///M-Spec

While the RX-8 is a great car for the money, the 3-series bimmer has a well-deserved reputation. Let's not forget:

-- According to Car and Driver, here are the 5-60mph times:

330i w/Zhp package: 6.4 seconds
RX-8: 7.5 seconds

While the RX-8 and the 330i have nearly identical 0-60 times, 5-60mph is a much better "real world" performance comparison, since few of us are willing to drop the clutch at 8000rpm as seems to be necessary to hit the sub 6 second 0-60 times.


-- 330i w/zhp package: 21 city / 30 highway


-- Beginning with the 2003 model year, all BMWs include 4 years (not 3) free maintenance.


-- 330i is a true 4 door sedan


Both are great cars!! Enjoy each for what it has to offer.

I have a 2001 325is and just test drove the Rx-8 yesterday. I love my BMW, but the Rx-8 can pump up your adrenalin where the BMW can't. My brother just bought a 350z and I drove that too. The Z has more power but not as good handeling around corners.

Sincerely,

Laguna Niguel

///Mspec

I wrote a lengthy reply to your message at work's end today and the machine froze.

I was trying to figure out what you said.

The RX8 book by Yamaguchi (I referred to as the RX bible) states that the desingers took the recognized benchmark leader cars and strove to meet or exceed their specs. It mentions that the benchmark car for the chassis was the E36 M3 of which they met one and exceeded one of the chassis specs meaning that in chassis design the RX 8 is every bit as good or better than an E36 M3 - the best 3 BMW has to offer.

Also, they chose the E36 over the E46 because the earlier chassis demonstrated a more sporty character. They chose the M3 because that represented the enhanced chassis.

As to your question of which BMW was I referring to - ALL E36/E46 models - 323 through M3.

The Mazda team use several benchamark cars to insure the RX8's competitive place in the market. Naturally the RX8 isn't the power equivalent to the M3 but it isnt $50K either. GO with a 330i and you get closer to RX performance but still $10K more.

I am not saying that the RX beats ALL the cars out there. What I am saying is that the value/performance is exceptional (not just engine but design too)

While the RX-8 is a great car for the money, the 3-series bimmer has a well-deserved reputation. Let's not forget:

Bluemoon, why would Car and Driver use a 5-60 and not a 0-60 time? Because the gearing advantage would be lost. Just about everyine knows that rotaries live on RPM and need it to compete. If you lull one around it has little torque. They also said though the 0-60 was 5.9 seconds. My driving habits have changed and I do rev more than I did with a piston engine.

As a previous BMW owner I know the 3 series BMW is a great car. I just think the RX8 is just as good for a whole lot less money - little less luxury and not a snobby badge appeal - just a great car.

Its like this, I owned a Lexus ES300 and a Millennia S. The Millennia S was a better driving car and WAY CHEAPER than the Lexus but try and tell the brain washed public that and they just laugh in your face and head for the Lexus dealer with a dazed blind look chanting Lexus Lexus Lexus. I had NO trouble with the Millennia mechanics of the car. Lexus? Yup! It is the same situation here with the Mazda and BMW. It is harder to compare due to the vast variations in 3 series models and pricing but nonetheless, looking at the SAME price point, Mazda beats em out.

I would feel so bad if my little rotary blew away the guy in his new M3. He deserves to win with his extra $20K investment. - Even if it is only 1 1/2 car lengths or so ahead. :D

I traded in my 95 M3 to get my RX-8. I loved my M3 but it began to have electrical problems in the dash and rather than take the hit and fix it I decided to get a new car. I test drove an 01 and 03 M3's both were manual 6 speeds. Then I chanced a test drive in the RX-8. The 8 just felt more like a sports car. It does corner very well and is similar to the M3 except that you sit lower and I feel more of a conection with the road. When you hit a corner too hot and the DSC kicks in it is a little bit unerving at first. After I got used to it I have begun to fell more in control. My M3 had more hp and torque. I still love the newer M3's but I had to make the decision between marriage and car payment (my wife forced me to rethink my purchase). I love the car and my monthly payments are about $300 less. Well whatever they are both nice cars and you are lucky if purchase either one :D .

Okay, just got my R&T magazine yesterday with the specs on the '03 M3 then I pulled the Road and Track Mazda RX-8 data sheet of their site - READY?

Acceleration------------------
0-60
M3 RX8
5.0 5.9

Warranty---------------------
same for both

Stopping Distance-----------
60-0
M3 RX8
112 114
brake rating
same for both

Handling-----------------------
Skidpad
M3 RX8
0.87 0.88
Balance
same for both
Speed thru slalom
M3 RX8
68.3 65.4

MPG--------------------------
M3 RX8
16/23 18/24

Interior Noise--------------
M3 RX8
Idle 53 47
1st@maxRPM 84 76
Constant 70mph 75 72


The M3, BMW's ultimate. A wonderful car. As tested $55,815. The M3 will walk away from an RX8 past 65 mph or so - the advantage being torque vs. gearing as on the RX. Yet I cannot help but realize how similar these cars are in handling performance. As I said before, more money ($25K or so) should give you some advantage. Still, you COULD nearly buy your two favorite color RX8's for the same cost!

Originally posted by RodsterinFL

Bluemoon, why would Car and Driver use a 5-60 and not a 0-60 time? Because the gearing advantage would be lost. Just about everyine knows that rotaries live on RPM and need it to compete.

not gearing. clutch slippage. do a couple of drag racing starts and you'll go through your clutch pretty easily.

and one metric you left out, or the magazine did, is top gear roll-on 30-50 or whatever speed difference. the torque of any bmw will kill the rotary. yes, i admit this time the gearing does make a difference because it'll effect what rpm the engine is at at 30mph, but you still have to face the facts. the engine has less torque so you'll have to drive it differently.

i echo rod's statement. the rx8 is more value for your money because you have excellent handling while giving up some power, but you save a ton of money.

top gear roll ---

It does give the figures for the mph attained at each gear at maximum RPM.

The cars are nearly the same - a mph difference or so until about 65 mph - then the Bimmer walks away.

If I may say so, The BMW 3 series is an excellent car. I am just elated to find a car that nearly performs the same for a lot less.

I have a 02 M3 and I went to test drive a RX8 recently b/c my gf needed new car. The car did handle very well, but I think many of you are kidding yourself if you're comparing it to a M3. Yes the M3 does push at the limit and it understeers a bit, but it claws through the corner with authority. The stability gives the driver supreme confidence. The RX8 felt lighter and was easier to toss through the corner, but I can't take corners any faster than the M3. The M3 does take a lot of practice to drive well, especially b/c the torque can kick the tail out quite easily.

For those of you dogging BMW's reliability, read this: J.D Power's 2003 "Long Term Dependability" rated Mazda under industry average while BMW rated higher. See this link for the press release:

http://www.jdpa.com/awards/industry/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=749&CatID=1

Calling BMW crap because of the price is uncalled for. So if a Dodge SRT-4 can outperform the RX8 at 10K less, does that make the RX8 crap? People buy BMWs for the smooth engine, legendary road feel, nice interior and the otherall package. I know some BMW owners that bash other non-BMW cars... didn't know Mazda owners did that too.

That said, I would choose a RX8 over a 323ci any day. I had a 323ci for 3 years and the RX8 owns it on every level.

I'm still doing my research, that's why I'm on this board. The RX8 seems to be a good car overall, but reading about engine failures and 12/13mpg gas mileage isn't helping. :(

most people get way better mileage than that.

I will agree with gemusan and say that 0-60 mph my M3 was more agressive. I do have to agree that the engine is more smooth in the RX-8. I have to disagree with the findings on the warranty. When you buy an M3 the warranty includes a full maintenance agreement. What does this include? How about free maintenance on the vehicle for 5 years ie., oil changes, all fluids, wiper blades, anything at all except the clutch, tires and brakes maybe? I don't know it may even include those. And on my 95 M3 there was a recall on the radiator cap in 2002 and sure enough when I went in to the dealership for maintenance they found the recall and replaced it for me without my even knowing about it. I wonder if Mazda is going to perform the same way? I hope so but this is of course one of the reasons people will go to BMW for their new car purchases.