I attempted to trade in my RX-8 yesterday and got completely low balled on it. They wanted to give me $12,000. Kelly blue book is between $15,800 and $16,500 as my car is in between good and excellent condition. They graded it as a sport model even though it is a grand touring edition. When the dealer pulled out his little black book he pointed out that it did not show any additional money for the package. Obviously I walked away. He claims he his going to make some calls tomorrow to see if he can find some other takers that might pay more for the car ( probably just a sales tactic to see if I will call then back in a day or two).

My question : The dealership claims they don't use KBB anymore cause they loose money. They use black book. I've seen this appraisal before online and every car I've put in comes out a grand or two under KBB. Is this car appraisal system just some "dealer friendly" system to low ball trades ?

Thanks !

yes they usually use the little black book in their desk, I've seen it. and the value are *usually* much lower than kbb

KBB value is not that accurate these days.

Sell it outright. Dealers always offer $2g-3$g less than bluebook. Even on Hondas. They have nothing to lose by doing so. That's why they are refered to as stealers. They will turn around and list your car, on thier lot as a grand touring 8 for $19000. Don't trade unless your desperate and really want to get rid of the car now. I'm not a car salesman but have bought alot of cars. If you trade you will leave thousands on the table and they are happy to take it. Yes they all lowball trades. They want profit. They are not fair appraisers. Does not matter what model or brand or shape the car is in.

I attempted to trade in my RX-8 yesterday and got completely low balled on it. They wanted to give me $12,000. Kelly blue book is between $15,800 and $16,500 as my car is in between good and excellent condition. They graded it as a sport model even though it is a grand touring edition. When the dealer pulled out his little black book he pointed out that it did not show any additional money for the package. Obviously I walked away. He claims he his going to make some calls tomorrow to see if he can find some other takers that might pay more for the car ( probably just a sales tactic to see if I will call then back in a day or two).

My question : The dealership claims they don't use KBB anymore cause they loose money. They use black book. I've seen this appraisal before online and every car I've put in comes out a grand or two under KBB. Is this car appraisal system just some "dealer friendly" system to low ball trades ?

Thanks !


FYI black book usually makes vehicles worth more money, im not going to burst your bubble about what your 8 is worth *its def worth more than 12 depending on condition tires etc.*
unfortunately that rx8 is a VERY soft car, it depreciates quick, and most buyers are not interested in the rotary motor and the extra aspects that come with ownership.

therefor imo i would say the dealer sees the car as something they would rather take in at a low enough number that they can quickly resell it to another dealer or, take it to the auction so that they never have to deal with it again.

Dealing with trades is a difficult part of doing a car sale as you clearly saw. The amount they give you for the trade really doesn't matter as long as the dealership knows they can sell the car. Typically the easiest method to negotiate a trade is to try and get a wash where you would break even. Still, used cars for dealerships in my experience make much more profit than new cars.

I sold Mazdas for a little while and it was always better to do a used car deal cause Mazda's don't have a lot of markup. Maybe $2,500 from invoice.

Depending on how many dealers there are for whatever vehicle your looking for, sometimes you can play them off each other if it's done right. Often a dealership won't give you numbers if you are going to take them someplace else. If they don't accept KBB then perhaps you can find adds or prices for RX8's with similar packages and show what they are charging.

If you see your year and package going for $18,000 then clearly $14k - $15k should be possible. The ideal would be to give you $12,000 and then they sell it for $18,000.

Other solutions would be for them to come down on the cost of the purchase vehicle. You can usually take from "one pocket or the other" but not both.

If you are firm on the cost of your trade stick by your guns. The trap people get into is buying a car all in one day. If you take your time and let them come to you, you might be surprised on what deals can be made.

Also, being that it's still early in the month they are less willing to struggle to get deals. Mazda would give the dealership a set amount of new cars that had to be moved for a bonus. If we made or exceeded that number we got so much $$ per car sold which was extra $ for the dealership. If they are hungry the might deal with you to make some extra on the back end.

I hope some of this helps. It's a dog and pony show. The better you "play" the more money you save.

Thanks for the replies. I really think that they are just testing me. If the deal really wasn't in the ball park, they most likely would have just said no and I would have been on my way. The sales manager claimed he was going to make some calls on Monday to see if he could get in contact with someone that might be willing to pay more for it. I don't see a dealer even going out of there way with a story like that if they weren't thinking of more negotiations.

When I bought my wifes car 6 months ago, I walked away from the deal and the next day the dealer acted as though god was smiling down on me because they were able to get the bank to drop down 3% on the finance charges putting me in the payment I wanted.

I guess I'll wait and see if the dealer calls tomorrow.....

First of all your subject line made me laugh ... that's an oxymoron if there ever was one.

I worked in the car biz for about a year - the "black book" is another published car price guide like KBB.

The thing to remember is that dealers buy at wholesale, sell at retail - if you're looking at KBB's site and are not looking at "trade in value" but retail value, you'll be disappointed.

Personally, I'd sell it outright - list it on eBay Motors and it'll be gone within 7 days and most likely at a price higher than you expect. Put a reserve on it at the lowest price you'd take, pay the $10 to list it and have at it. I help others sell their cars on eBay. If you want me to do it for you, I could help you and can put together a kickass listing for you.

Also check out Carmax, I've heard they offer a pretty fair price, at least more than the trade in offer from the dealer, and its no hassle for you. I think the offer they make is in writing and good for 7 days or so. Could be a quick alternative to trade-in.

Also check out Carmax, I've heard they offer a pretty fair price, at least more than the trade in offer from the dealer, and its no hassle for you. I think the offer they make is in writing and good for 7 days or so. Could be a quick alternative to trade-in.

Carmax uses the same black book as the dealers. They also will half that price if they detect any sign that the car was in any kind of accident and repaired. They do a very thorough inspection and can tell.

Best way to buy a new car and negotiate a trade is by internet. Edmonds offers a site that will submit what your looking for to all the dealers who carry it in your area. You will get responses within a week. I tell them all to sharpen thier pencils because they bid against each other. I go with the low bid then work from there. I never admit a trade until I have chosen a dealer with lowest bid. Then and only then, when they know I'm going to buy do I tell them I have to sell my present car first. You would be surprised how much they are willing to compete to get your business even with a trade. They know you have been contacted by other dealers. They know it's an internet deal. They know I can walk. I do not devulge what the competitor dealers offered. It drives them crazy and they won't leave you alone. They want to sell you a car. They know you will buy from the one who wants your business most. It all works in your favor. You only need a computer and a phone. Takes the nonscense out of buying a car.

I attempted to trade in my RX-8 yesterday and got completely low balled on it. They wanted to give me $12,000. Kelly blue book is between $15,800 and $16,500 as my car is in between good and excellent condition. They graded it as a sport model even though it is a grand touring edition. When the dealer pulled out his little black book he pointed out that it did not show any additional money for the package. Obviously I walked away. He claims he his going to make some calls tomorrow to see if he can find some other takers that might pay more for the car ( probably just a sales tactic to see if I will call then back in a day or two).

My question : The dealership claims they don't use KBB anymore cause they loose money. They use black book. I've seen this appraisal before online and every car I've put in comes out a grand or two under KBB. Is this car appraisal system just some "dealer friendly" system to low ball trades ?

Thanks !

Never fear, Renesis07 is here!!! :) Im a car salesman. Heres the deal, what youre seeing when u look in KBB is resale value! Trade in is much lower on every vehicle. Thats the way it is. Most dealers use NADA which is significantly lower than KBB. And unless your 8 has 15K miles and has no scratches or cracks in the leather, they will usually always book it at average. About 3 months ago, it was about 13,750 for average trade in. Demand 15,000 and youll probably get it. As ive explained before, theres ACV ( actual cash value) Dealerships can "overallow" out the salesmans commission to give you more money when the cash value is still low. Example. If they give you 15,000 for the trade and its ACV is 12,000, that 3K comes out of the salesmans commission; thats overallowing. Now, what it sounds like theyre trying to do to you is make money off your trade. Example, if they show you 12,000 for trade and its ACV is worth 14,000, thats 2,000 profit to the dealership! I hope this made sense.

Never fear, Renesis07 is here!!! :) Im a car salesman. Heres the deal, what youre seeing when u look in KBB is resale value! Trade in is much lower on every vehicle. Thats the way it is. Most dealers use NADA which is significantly lower than KBB. And unless your 8 has 15K miles and has no scratches or cracks in the leather, they will usually always book it at average. About 3 months ago, it was about 13,750 for average trade in. Demand 15,000 and youll probably get it. As ive explained before, theres ACV ( actual cash value) Dealerships can "overallow" out the salesmans commission to give you more money when the cash value is still low. Example. If they give you 15,000 for the trade and its ACV is 12,000, that 3K comes out of the salesmans commission; thats overallowing. Now, what it sounds like theyre trying to do to you is make money off your trade. Example, if they show you 12,000 for trade and its ACV is worth 14,000, thats 2,000 profit to the dealership! I hope this made sense.

That does make sense but I must clarify that I am not looking at resale value with KBB. I am looking at trade in value.

My biggest concern is that when they ran the VIN it came up as a sport and offered me $12,000. When I told them it was a GT they would not take it into consideration and offer me more. We are talking quite a few upgrades here. When I asked why he showed me the little black book he had and said that upgrades did not raise the value at all.

what year is you car and how many miles??

That does make sense but I must clarify that I am not looking at resale value with KBB. I am looking at trade in value.

My biggest concern is that when they ran the VIN it came up as a sport and offered me $12,000. When I told them it was a GT they would not take it into consideration and offer me more. We are talking quite a few upgrades here. When I asked why he showed me the little black book he had and said that upgrades did not raise the value at all.

If you live near a large city use the net. You will get 4-5 dealers contacting you for your dollar. The dealer your dealing with sounds like a dud. Move on. There are dealers willing to work with you. find them. It's a competitive business. Make them work for you. They will if they know your wise to the game.

SELL IT YOURSELF. You're foolish to trade it, unless there's a problem you're trying to hide or pawn off on someone else. You will ALWAYS get more money because you're selling at retail not a wholesale. Pretty damn simple principle.

BTW, you're positive it's a GT? A GT has leather, Bose sound, 18" wheels with stability/DSC, HID, moonroof, the works. You missing any of those items?

FYI, if you insist on trading it - rather than getting hung up on what your trade allowance is, worry only about the total amount you need to pay to get the new car - at the end of the day, that's the only thing that matters. Go in there knowing the number you want to buy the car at, and the number you want to sell yours at - that's the "minimum" difference you can probably get - and from there, your ability to get to that number is entirely based upon your ability to negotiate. If the car you want is $34K and you think they would sell it for $30K and you think your car is worth $15K, then you are solving for a difference number of $15K. Again, it's the only number that matters. How the dealer manipulates the numbers to get to that is inconsequential.

Then, the next thing you want to do is shop financing, based upon the difference number, so you know from a few financing sources, what a payment on that amount would be. Therefore, you don't have to sweat being a "payment buyer". Know the financing terms (percentage and term) required to get that payment, and do a simple division - a $300 payment on a $15,000 note means that 30 divided by 15 yields that every $20 of payment buys you $1000 of car AT THOSE TERMS. If the dealer's payment is beating that, then get the terms to see why. Chances are if you turn into a payment buyer, you'll get a much longer term than what you wanted, or a high rate, and wind up paying far more in the long run than you should have.

The seven P's apply here - Prior Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance - know the score before you go. Know how much your car is worth from several sources, know how much you could likely sell it for yourself, know what your buying power is in terms of financing, and finally have your difference calculated to get you to the payment you want.

Go in that prepared, and you will hold the majority of the cards in the negotiation. AT that point, you can simply walk out of the stealership if they can't hit your terms.

^^ Very true, because if they dropped the price of their vehicle a shitload but didnt budge on your trade, that could still be a good deal. Or would you have rather had them keep the price the same and give you crazy trade in, either way its the same! Look, dealerships are going to make their cut so just figure out what you wanna spend and get there and dont focus on one aspect of the deal (ie trade, cost, monthy payment, etc) theyre going to make it somewhere. Just try not to get royally screwed!!! And besides, if this dealership wont work with you, screw them and go somewhere else!!!! Im sure theres other dealerships in florida

I attempted to trade in my RX-8 yesterday and got completely low balled on it. They wanted to give me $12,000. Kelly blue book is between $15,800 and $16,500 as my car is in between good and excellent condition. They graded it as a sport model even though it is a grand touring edition. When the dealer pulled out his little black book he pointed out that it did not show any additional money for the package. Obviously I walked away. He claims he his going to make some calls tomorrow to see if he can find some other takers that might pay more for the car ( probably just a sales tactic to see if I will call then back in a day or two).

My question : The dealership claims they don't use KBB anymore cause they loose money. They use black book. I've seen this appraisal before online and every car I've put in comes out a grand or two under KBB. Is this car appraisal system just some "dealer friendly" system to low ball trades ?

Thanks !

KBB is worthless when tradeing in, the dealer goes by what a recent car of the same make, model, trim sold at the latest dealer auction.

^^ Very true, because if they dropped the price of their vehicle a shitload but didnt budge on your trade, that could still be a good deal. Or would you have rather had them keep the price the same and give you crazy trade in, either way its the same! theres other dealerships in florida


I was thinking the same. If they did'nt drop the new vehicle price a shitload only to make it up on the trade he should walk. Fair pricing is what you want. If you see the overall deal is not fair by market standards , tell them and walk. Don't argue with them. That would only empower them.

what year is you car and how many miles??

'04
42,500 miles

Has Leather, 18" rims (and tires with roughly 9,000 miles on them, moonroof, 9 Bose speakers, heated seats etc... I'm 100% sure it's a GT.

Wow, threads like this drive me crazy. For some reason people feel they should be able to buy a new car for wholesale and sell a used car for retail, not the other way around. Well guess what, there are these really big buildings that cost OODLES of money, and therefore it doesn't work that way. Dealers make money, albeit through smaller profit margins then any business I know(save for grocery stores, and GAS, both of which are HIGH volume retail). So let me guess, you already beat them down to a zero profit deal on the car your buyuing, with a smile on your face...
KBB is the biggest source of confusion on the market. See the thing is, some consumers are convinved it has any bearing whatsoever on anything. It is by far the worst guide of value. Funnier then that is that you used exce;;ent and good. Those terms are reserved for retail units. A trade in will never be more then a fair car. If you have NO scratches, new tires and breaks, a full detail and a full tank of gas, then maybe you'll get closer to a good trade in number, of course thi sis assuming that you have NOMAL(10-14k/yr) miles. KBB puts basically no value in miles, which in the real world are usually more important then Model year. So in conclusion, unless Mr Kelly is opening his checkbook, what do you care he says your car is worth. Why don't you worry abotu people actually willing to buy your car.
Black book is a much more regularly updated and correctly adjusted guide. I'm not sure if there is an add for GT or not, but I can tell you why he won't give you any more money for it... because it doesn't matter. These cars sell for the same number at the auction no matter how they are equipped, except for the autos which normally no sale, or eventually sell for 80% of a comparable stick,. The day I went to the sale they had 17 rx-8s. 5 were auto's, 4 didn't even get bid on. The other one sold for $2k less then any of the sticks, and was clearly in better shape then a couple, all of which sold. Differences in colors and conditions weighed significantly more then optons that day, for example an '04 w/ 29k loaded up with nav, sold for less then one with 13k in a base model, that is odd. That is the Rx8.
Let';s add to all of this, the fact that it's December. HOw easy do you suppose it will be for him to sell that sports car in the middle of the winter. Sounds to me like he'll be wholesaling the car. Maybe that's why he gave you a wholesale number, because he didn't want to lose money buying yoru car, that he doesn't want. Man, what a horrible thing to do? I don't understand people.
Ok, so i guess you should take it elsewhere. Carmax pays great money, because they rip[ everyone off at the other end. They will sell the car for an absurd ammount of money, so they are able to give top wholesale dollars for retail ready cars.
Top dollar comes from selling it on your own, well until you factor in all of the costs in doing so. Start off with an ad, a good detail and add to that a good safety inspection and replacement of some parts,. Then factor in dealing with people and taking time off of work for test drives. Then you have the tire kickers that waste your time, everyone wants a discount and most peoples financing falls through. Sounds fun, maybe it's worth it for you.

Forgive me if I'm worng but this sounds like a spade.... sounds like you have a not so nice car, with high miles, aqnd some soon to be failing parts- that's why you are getting rid of it. I bet you also negotiated the other car down to zero profit and are complaining because you are not being overpaid for yoru crap that noone wants. This is a common thought for people to have. Afterall, they paid a LOT of their money and "took care of" their car.

"But KBB said my 200k mile Mercedes 230 was worth $9k"
"Would you for any reason EVER buy this car fro $9k?"
"Oh god no, that's why I want you too... I'll buy this almost new one with no mileage for a little more...."

A spade is a spade.

'04
42,500 miles

Has Leather, 18" rims (and tires with roughly 9,000 miles on them, moonroof, 9 Bose speakers, heated seats etc... I'm 100% sure it's a GT.


Sounds like a $13,995 kind of retail car. Maybe start at $14,995. I'm talking retail, detailed, everything fixed, dents dings scratches, stains, all shakes and rattles, inspected if your state has it. I hope its a good color(read less likely to offend) not yellow or Nordic Green...
$14k for the car, you are now the shark you began to coi
BTW, the funny [part in all of this... if you get someoen to give you over $14k for the car, you are now the shark you began this thread by complaining about.

Just to try and avoid a flame war here - I think the OP's issue was not so much that he is trying to get one over on the man - but that he doesn't UNDERSTAND where the magic numbers come from in the first place. That is why most people hate buying a car - because they never REALLY know what kind of deal they got - they just hope that they didn't get screwed too much. This is why car salesmen are feared and loathed - the process is too confrontational.

Revvittupp has about the only real answers in this thread.

I was born in to the car business. And what he said makes almost perfect sense.





Question for the OP . . . What would you pay for your car? To buy the same RX8 you own right now . . .how much would you pay?
The dealer wants to buy it from you for $12k, + the $2k in recon + Misc , they are in to it for $14k or over. Now they want a profit margin so that you, the consumer, can 'haggle' a better deal out of them and feal good about yourself. And if you cant 'haggle' $2k out of them, you wont buy.

SO . . .

$14k +$2k 'haggle' + $2k (conservative)profit the dealer wants = $18,000

Would you consider buying your current car if it was marked at $18,000 on the dealers lot?

Just to try and avoid a flame war here - I think the OP's issue was not so much that he is trying to get one over on the man - but that he doesn't UNDERSTAND where the magic numbers come from in the first place. That is why most people hate buying a car - because they never REALLY know what kind of deal they got - they just hope that they didn't get screwed too much. This is why car salesmen are feared and loathed - the process is too confrontational.


The value is based on what they go for at the dealer auctions. Each area will have different cars that hold value beter in certain markets. A Subaru in socal aint worth the paper the title is printed on, but in the Colorado mountains, they hold value better than any honda

I agree rglbegl - I know how the game is to be played; but I see daily the confusion and drama of this process.

I have helped like 3 people get cars over here; because you can order through the factory and avoid all this crap - and I tell you; it is MUCH easier and less annoying that going to the dealership.

I was just trying to mention that not all consumers are trying to screw the big bad dealerships... or vice versa for that matter.

I was just trying to mention that not all consumers are trying to screw the big bad dealerships... or vice versa for that matter.

I know not all consumers are trying to screw the dealership.

But


Let it be known ; EVERY dealership is trying to screw you. Period.

Best way to buy a new car and negotiate a trade is by internet. Edmonds offers a site that will submit what your looking for to all the dealers who carry it in your area. You will get responses within a week. I tell them all to sharpen thier pencils because they bid against each other. I go with the low bid then work from there. I never admit a trade until I have chosen a dealer with lowest bid. Then and only then, when they know I'm going to buy do I tell them I have to sell my present car first. You would be surprised how much they are willing to compete to get your business even with a trade. They know you have been contacted by other dealers. They know it's an internet deal. They know I can walk. I do not devulge what the competitor dealers offered. It drives them crazy and they won't leave you alone. They want to sell you a car. They know you will buy from the one who wants your business most. It all works in your favor. You only need a computer and a phone. Takes the nonscense out of buying a car.

Where is this located on Edmunds.com? I can't seem to find it.

I know there used to be a website called mycar.com that worked like what you are describing where several dealers bid against each other to give you the lowest price possible on the car you want. I actually used this service to get a price for my 8 but the site no longer exists.

I know not all consumers are trying to screw the dealership.

But


Let it be known ; EVERY dealership is trying to screw you. Period.

If by screw, you mean get every single penny of profit possible, then you are correct. If by screw, you mean maliciously meaning ill will, then you are not correct. IF by screw you mean making money hand over fist, you would not be correct. The average SALES dept has very little black ink each month by the time everything is said and done. A sales departments number one priority is to provede the parts and service departments with future customers, and profit second. I know of stoers that feel that if they aren't in the red each month, they are missing sales and thus PUSH FOR IT. These stores LOSE money on an operational basis of the sales department, thogh these stores are typically VERY high volume glorified service shops.

All the confusion in the car business is, that they are making a WHOLE LOT LESS then you think, and that it costs a WHOLE LOT MORE to do so. Unless people are still confused about the insanae ammounts of money made in EVERY service department.

Where is this located on Edmunds.com? I can't seem to find it.

I know there used to be a website called mycar.com that worked like what you are describing where several dealers bid against each other to give you the lowest price possible on the car you want. I actually used this service to get a price for my 8 but the site no longer exists.


Never mind...I found it, but it will still be a game doing it this way, because it only allows you to chose make and model. You can't really tell them trimline/options so instead of emailing you with a quote, they will call you and ask what options you are looking for and they will not give you a price. Instead they will try to sucker you into going to the dealership to look at what they have on hand.

Where is this located on Edmunds.com? I can't seem to find it.

I know there used to be a website called mycar.com that worked like what you are describing where several dealers bid against each other to give you the lowest price possible on the car you want. I actually used this service to get a price for my 8 but the site no longer exists.


It's on the front home page, of edmonds .com upper left square. It says GET A FREE PRICE QUOTE. enter make, model and zip. It will give you all the dealers in your area. You choose which ones you want to contact you with a quote. It works, pick the lowest deal and start diolog by phone or in person. The only problem is they will all be calling you trying to talk you over to thier dealership. You have to just say no and pick the best deal for you. Dealers are much more receptive to you when you shop by the net. Often the new car manager or a sales specialist will contact you. They become very competitive and you stay in control.:)

Never mind...I found it, but it will still be a game doing it this way, because it only allows you to chose make and model. You can't really tell them trimline/options so instead of emailing you with a quote, they will call you and ask what options you are looking for and they will not give you a price. Instead they will try to sucker you into going to the dealership to look at what they have on hand.

No I think it gets more detailed once you get to the survey.

Wow, threads like this drive me crazy. For some reason people feel they should be able to buy a new car for wholesale and sell a used car for retail, not the other way around. Well guess what, there are these really big buildings that cost OODLES of money, and therefore it doesn't work that way. Dealers make money, albeit through smaller profit margins then any business I know(save for grocery stores, and GAS, both of which are HIGH volume retail). So let me guess, you already beat them down to a zero profit deal on the car your buyuing, with a smile on your face...
KBB is the biggest source of confusion on the market. See the thing is, some consumers are convinved it has any bearing whatsoever on anything. It is by far the worst guide of value. Funnier then that is that you used exce;;ent and good. Those terms are reserved for retail units. A trade in will never be more then a fair car. If you have NO scratches, new tires and breaks, a full detail and a full tank of gas, then maybe you'll get closer to a good trade in number, of course thi sis assuming that you have NOMAL(10-14k/yr) miles. KBB puts basically no value in miles, which in the real world are usually more important then Model year. So in conclusion, unless Mr Kelly is opening his checkbook, what do you care he says your car is worth. Why don't you worry abotu people actually willing to buy your car.
Black book is a much more regularly updated and correctly adjusted guide. I'm not sure if there is an add for GT or not, but I can tell you why he won't give you any more money for it... because it doesn't matter. These cars sell for the same number at the auction no matter how they are equipped, except for the autos which normally no sale, or eventually sell for 80% of a comparable stick,. The day I went to the sale they had 17 rx-8s. 5 were auto's, 4 didn't even get bid on. The other one sold for $2k less then any of the sticks, and was clearly in better shape then a couple, all of which sold. Differences in colors and conditions weighed significantly more then optons that day, for example an '04 w/ 29k loaded up with nav, sold for less then one with 13k in a base model, that is odd. That is the Rx8.
Let';s add to all of this, the fact that it's December. HOw easy do you suppose it will be for him to sell that sports car in the middle of the winter. Sounds to me like he'll be wholesaling the car. Maybe that's why he gave you a wholesale number, because he didn't want to lose money buying yoru car, that he doesn't want. Man, what a horrible thing to do? I don't understand people.
Ok, so i guess you should take it elsewhere. Carmax pays great money, because they rip[ everyone off at the other end. They will sell the car for an absurd ammount of money, so they are able to give top wholesale dollars for retail ready cars.
Top dollar comes from selling it on your own, well until you factor in all of the costs in doing so. Start off with an ad, a good detail and add to that a good safety inspection and replacement of some parts,. Then factor in dealing with people and taking time off of work for test drives. Then you have the tire kickers that waste your time, everyone wants a discount and most peoples financing falls through. Sounds fun, maybe it's worth it for you.

Forgive me if I'm worng but this sounds like a spade.... sounds like you have a not so nice car, with high miles, aqnd some soon to be failing parts- that's why you are getting rid of it. I bet you also negotiated the other car down to zero profit and are complaining because you are not being overpaid for yoru crap that noone wants. This is a common thought for people to have. Afterall, they paid a LOT of their money and "took care of" their car.

"But KBB said my 200k mile Mercedes 230 was worth $9k"
"Would you for any reason EVER buy this car fro $9k?"
"Oh god no, that's why I want you too... I'll buy this almost new one with no mileage for a little more...."

A spade is a spade.

Rev - I'm not trying to nickel and dime the dealer at all. Please don't misunderstand the reasoning for my original post. As with alot of posts, questions get asked and before you know it, the post is headed in a different direction.

In previous car buying experiences, I've gotten NADA value (this is years ago). When I did I was told by a dealer, "No sir, KBB is what we use it is much more accurate". Since then, this is what I've used for information. Now apparently there is something new. The bottom line is that there has to be a tool out there for people to do there research from. How are people that are not in the automotive industry supposed to know how much there car is worth ? Am I supposed to take a dealers word for it ? I don't think so. My dealer is using black book. I'd never even heard of it before. That's why I asked about it. I also asked about the GT package because I do not and probably never will understand why my car is not worth any more money than a compairable sport pkg car.

This dealership has a huge used lot. I know they do alot of used buisness. They currently have 1 RX-8 on the lot. It's a 2005 Shinaka edition. Automatic, with 38,000 miles. They are asking $20,000 for it. Mine is a year older with 4,200 miles more on it with completely compairable options(its also red). Like I said, I was offered $12,000 for it and looking at the one on there lot, I would imagine they would sticker mine at around $18,000.

Now, I do not regret my post. I've learned alot. People have replied and I got some good feedback. My original questions were answered and for that I thank all !!!!! :beer05: :)

Sell it on eBay. You'll get more than a trade.
Not all dealers are ripp-offs. Dealer who own and operate themselves have less overhead/employee cost and give you better deals. I got my car from such dealer. Well they sold it to me at cost but for other people I imagine they would try to profit about $2,500 on it.

Once again, ladies, the only number that makes a difference IS the DIFFERENCE.

And the DIFFERENCE number is how much you pay in the spread between the price of the new car and the allowance of your car.

When I sold cars, you could easily categorize people into basically three or four buckets.

The payment buyer only gave a shit about payment - easiest prey on the lot - didn't matter what you bought his car for or what you sold your car to him for - if the payment worked, you were money.

The allowance buyer only cared what you were giving him on the trade - so you showed him an high trade allowance and held the line on the new car, keeping the difference where we wanted it.

The discount buyer only cared how much you were discounting the new car - you could give him shit on the trade if he felt like he had you over the barrel on the new one - these guys we'd give them $1000 off invoice and make it on the trade allowance.

And there's the Homework buyer - this is a guy that knew the score - knew what his trade was actually worth in real money to a wholesale buyer, knew our cost structure on the car, had his financing hacked, etc. You loved getting these guys because they weren't yankin' your chain at all - they were there to buy the car and you could reason with them - you let me make a fair profit, you get a nice deal, we all win. And they always would agree to that and listen to reason.

I'd categorize the OP here as an allowance buyer.

Stew

Rev - I'm not trying to nickel and dime the dealer at all. Please don't misunderstand the reasoning for my original post. As with alot of posts, questions get asked and before you know it, the post is headed in a different direction.

In previous car buying experiences, I've gotten NADA value (this is years ago). When I did I was told by a dealer, "No sir, KBB is what we use it is much more accurate". Since then, this is what I've used for information. Now apparently there is something new. The bottom line is that there has to be a tool out there for people to do there research from. How are people that are not in the automotive industry supposed to know how much there car is worth ? Am I supposed to take a dealers word for it ? I don't think so. My dealer is using black book. I'd never even heard of it before. That's why I asked about it. I also asked about the GT package because I do not and probably never will understand why my car is not worth any more money than a compairable sport pkg car.

This dealership has a huge used lot. I know they do alot of used buisness. They currently have 1 RX-8 on the lot. It's a 2005 Shinaka edition. Automatic, with 38,000 miles. They are asking $20,000 for it. Mine is a year older with 4,200 miles more on it with completely compairable options(its also red). Like I said, I was offered $12,000 for it and looking at the one on there lot, I would imagine they would sticker mine at around $18,000.

Now, I do not regret my post. I've learned alot. People have replied and I got some good feedback. My original questions were answered and for that I thank all !!!!! :beer05: :)


Here's where your logic is soft, Sportrider:

1) Year older and another "decade" higher in miles - in the 40's vs in the 30's. That "decade" of mileage is worth $2K to $3K right there in what someone might pay. Also, yours is an '04 - first year of production - always lower in trade than later years, no matter the car. If yours is an automatic, it's totally used car poison. Take the $12K and run.

2) He's got a $20K price tag on that Shinka, which means you can probably negotiate him down to $18.5 or even $17.5. He probably bought it for $15.5 to $16K. Why on the planet would he give you $18K for yours?

3) His initial offer of $12K for yours is a lowball, for sure, just to see if you'll stick and are real. There are too many morons out there looking to do a used car upgrade. You're clearly real.

You need to go in there, not get cranked on what the hell they are offering you (don't be an allowance buyer here). I'd try to solve for a $5000 difference price. That means to get there, they'll need to set yours in at around $13K and sell theirs for $18K. I'll bet they do it.

But don't waste your energy on caring about what they are "allowing" you - at the end of the day, it's the difference that counts. What are you willing to pay out more to have that Shinka? If it's $2k, you're smoking your socks. If it's $4K, it's worth trying to negotiate but that's still a stretch. If it's $5K, then you're more in the ballpark.

Understand?

And there's the Homework buyer - this is a guy that knew the score - knew what his trade was actually worth in real money to a wholesale buyer, knew our cost structure on the car, had his financing hacked, etc. You loved getting these guys because they weren't yankin' your chain at all - they were there to buy the car and you could reason with them - you let me make a fair profit, you get a nice deal, we all win. And they always would agree to that and listen to reason.

Stew


You described me to a tee. I am always aware they have to make a profit too. But I let them know I will not have my time wasted and I know what the Value is of the new as well as the trade if I have one. They respect me for it and really do try to help and sell me a car in a fair way. It also helps that I'm an experienced personality and reasonable. Well,:uhh: maybe not on the forum but at the dealers. I'm in my upper 50s

Thanks Stew, Just to clear things up, I'm not interested in the Shinaka. I was only using it as a reference. Some others had mentioned what other 8's were going for in my area.

Not much to add other than I really enjoyed reading this debate. I really think people don't understand the true value of their car. Personal value is much higher than marketable value. Full KBB trade in, is about $13,900 based on the info given, and KBB is a lot higher than the NADA guide. The $12,000 trade in offer is very reasonable. I would want more too, but it would depend on the overall deal you're making on the new car. I think you have all the info you need now to make an informed decision. And I applaud those of you that posted here with very informative paragraphs.

Rev -
The bottom line is that there has to be a tool out there for people to do there research from. How are people that are not in the automotive industry supposed to know how much there car is worth ? :beer05: :)


Plenty of tools out there. Call the bank, they will tell you what your car is worth because they base loans on it. Also check the classifieds, see what like cars are selling for. Print out "sell it your self" value from edmonds and Kelly and show it to them. Edmonds also lists the average selling prices of new car models in your area. Car trader is another source for pricing like cars. Be prepared and take your time. Conatact as many dealers as you can(internet helps here) If They don't really want your trade they will lowball you to discourage a trade. If you have a good trade find a dealer who wants the car and you as a customer. Don't sit down and start dealing right away on a car you like. Shop around but make short visits to the dealer you think is good and show your interest, communicate, ask questions. Narrow it down till it feels right. Once a dealer knows and likes you they will try harder to help. They want your business.

I'm not sure if there is an add for GT or not, but I can tell you why he won't give you any more money for it... because it doesn't matter. These cars sell for the same number at the auction no matter how they are equipped, except for the autos which normally no sale, or eventually sell for 80% of a comparable stick,. The day I went to the sale they had 17 rx-8s. 5 were auto's, 4 didn't even get bid on. The other one sold for $2k less then any of the sticks, and was clearly in better shape then a couple, all of which sold. Differences in colors and conditions weighed significantly more then optons that day, for example an '04 w/ 29k loaded up with nav, sold for less then one with 13k in a base model, that is odd. That is the Rx8.
If you take new MSRPs of a base 8 and a GT, there's probably $4500 difference. Why then doesn't the significantly higher priced model not retain a higher resale? Are you saying that the RX-8 is just this way, or are many cars like this (e.g. loaded Lexus LS460 vs a base model)?

Also, isn't it true that pretty much all auction cars are average crap - scratches, swirls, dings, not sparkling interior (probably describes over 90% of the cars on the road, right?)- and if someone has, let's say, a mint '06 Shinka with less than 10,000 miles they shouldn't really settle for "avg" black book figures? Hell, it makes you think that a car like that shouldn't even be brought to any dealer seeking a decent trade number because realistically no dealer has enough wiggle room (according to what you and other salesmen/managers have written in this thread) to sell him a new '08 model X for $400 under invoice and offer him top dollar on the '06 that's virtually showroom new.

Also wondering, what happens to the "no sale" cars - RX-8s or otherwise...relisted for a later date, or literally given away (i.e. auto '05 25K miles sold for $11K??)

Good input from you and couple others, by the way.

That's what auctions are for.

...easiest prey on the lot...

Prey - that kind of sums up the attitude, doesn't it.

Not necessarily all car salesmen, I've met (and dealt with) enough straight shooters. But I've also met enough who consider customers to be prey. I've probably heard more blatant lies from car salesmen than I've heard incompetent answers from Radio Shack clerks.

Ken

What one pays for any car might not be what the car is really worth.
You buy a car for more than its really worth, then year/years later you try to sell it and you are offered a bit less.

You wonder why you lost so much. Well, you did not do your homework when you bought it. Anyone, including dealers, will sell you a car for lots more than its worth if you so desire/ you suck in you doing your homework.

The '06 Shinka I bought for $19,750 in Oct 07(at a small town car dealer) was:

bought in April 07 for $27K (carmax) and traded in on August 07 for $17K (Ford Dealer)

Did I get a good deal?

who really knows? I am not selling anytime soon. paid cash so plan keeping it for a few years.

I normally keep my cars for at least 10 years min.

1. You might have paid too much for your car
2. Dealer will not pay you top dollar compared to what it retails for. His job is to make money/ie profit, not to give you top dollar for yours.
So he will not give you WHAT IT'S WORTH TO YOU BUT WHAT IT'S WORTH TO HIM. He is in the business to make a profit/not to give ppl what the car can be sold for.
If you want that top price then sell it yourself. His time is worth money. You do the work of selling the car/you make the difference in monies.

You seem to be a person who buys from dealers, ie you pay top dollar for a car and get bottom dollar when u sell to the dealer.
That's life. You don't like that, then don't play the game.
Sell the car yourself, buy from credit union/web/ etc.
There are so many other ways to buy a new car besides going directly to a dealer.

If you take new MSRPs of a base 8 and a GT, there's probably $4500 difference. Why then doesn't the significantly higher priced model not retain a higher resale? Are you saying that the RX-8 is just this way, or are many cars like this (e.g. loaded Lexus LS460 vs a base model)?

Also, isn't it true that pretty much all auction cars are average crap - scratches, swirls, dings, not sparkling interior (probably describes over 90% of the cars on the road, right?)- and if someone has, let's say, a mint '06 Shinka with less than 10,000 miles they shouldn't really settle for "avg" black book figures? Hell, it makes you think that a car like that shouldn't even be brought to any dealer seeking a decent trade number because realistically no dealer has enough wiggle room (according to what you and other salesmen/managers have written in this thread) to sell him a new '08 model X for $400 under invoice and offer him top dollar on the '06 that's virtually showroom new.

To the OP, to put this all in one post. I apologize, I was a bit snappy. I guess that is because there is such an ENOURMOUS wealth of info all over the place right in front of you, the internet. Really, the best place to look is to backwards calculate from retail. Start at autotrader. Look at a car with the same year, and similar miles and options start there. There are some key options like stick in an RX8 or a premium package on a beemer, these are basically necessities. Make sure you have the same must haves as the cars you are looking at. Look fora good range, from the pie in the sky figures that will never sell, to the certified units. Look at the lowest price on the page. Why? Because if you were buying, that's where you would start.

Now this answers some of the above post as well. What would it take for you to be able to offer whatever these cars that are for sale have. Does your state have an annual or lifetime inspection? Does the car have a warranty? DOes the dealer provide financing? Is your car CLEAN(no dents, burns, scratches, dirt)? And most importantly, hwo much value do you put in to your time and effort into selling the car. Do you have payments? HOw long will it take you to sell it? How much will you spend to advertise it? Dealers, who are professionals at what they do spend around $500 to sell a car in 90 days. Can you do better? Would you expect someone to ask for a discount? What would you say if they asked?

OK, sorry for the post hijack, onto this post.

ON the wholesale market, it's all about supply and demand. There are a lot of auto's on the market(not an enthusiast buyer). No one wants them. Thus htey are CHEAP independant of options. Once a car has a stick, most of the rest doesn't matter that much to prospective buyers. A lot of us like to play around and mod up the car. If anythign, a base stick has the highest potential, as it's the lightest. There are a lot of GT's out there and less of the cloth sticks. Therefore, what matters most, wholesale -wise is mileage, condition and model year, not so much the options. Sunroofs(Touring) will probably bring a couple hundred extra, as will leather, but that's about it, and only if the buyer wants them. All cars will have pockets like this, where most options are worthless, but some are big bucks, as its what people want. Navigation, rear seat DVD's and the like usually keep some value, in some cars leather and a sunroof are basically manditory. Heated seats on a leather car are assumed, and leather without heaters is usually a no buy up here in MD, or if purchased you are looking a full thousand below where you would buy the car at.

No, not all auction cars are crap. They come from a pool of lease turn-ins and trades. So if you trade a real nice car into a Mercedes Dealership on a SL500, they will likely sell yoiur trade at an auction, as their customers probably aren't looking for an 8. Are there a fair share of crappy cars, sure you have to know what you are looking at. A dealer is honestly looking mostly trhough the little stuff though. Paintless Dent Repair, interior subcontractors, bumper guys, trim painters and detail guys work wonders. Some dealers detail nice trades before the sale. Perception is reality. If a car looks real nice, it will elicit higher bids. At the same respect, if someone isn't really looking for that car that day, they will try and buy it cheap.

Cars that don't sell, do so becuase they were unable to elicit a minimum or floor price. Some dealers are online during auction and can have the auctioneer barter with the highest bidder, other times they are cahrged, and given the opportunity to run through next week, or take it home. I actually bought my car under floor, in post negotiations. Usually that means you get a good deal.


If you really want top dollar for your car, work for it. Clean it up, stop driving it, make sure all dents and scratches are fixed, have all inspections up to date, make sure it has good tires and brakes. Make sure the windssheild is not cracked or chipped. Sell it within factory warranty and have all TSB's up to date. If all this applys to you, offer it at a very solid price, advertise it in a few places and ahndle the phoen traffic. Sometimes it's easy, sometimes it's hard. Someitme's you'll get 16 year olds that think they can afford a $200 car payment on an $18k car, and other times the first person that calls you will bring a cashiers check in the full ammount.

If you want the convenience of not cleaning your car, leaving bad tires and a cracked windsheild, paying it off, including negative equity, selling you a new car and calling it a day, expect a wholesale number.

Stewy has been dead on as well this thread.

When did people decide that car dealers should not be able to profit from their business. I may be a little biased, but people rarely get as fired up as when they are buying a car. People will do anything to a car dealer. We buy a lot of cars from people that are not as the people described. There is a certain degree of risk that the dealer assumes, not to mention the buildings and employees and cars and fixed expenses. I think that people kinda forget all that stuff when they are shopping around. Sorry about the rant there.
If you want a trade value I would look at Manheim Market report. Manheim operates auctions all over the USA and shows individual and average sale prices at auction.
That way you can see what cars are really bringing and what dealers are paying for them. These are real numbers from real sales from all over the country. KBB and NADA are great guides, but manheim has real sales to back it up.

Your insurance co can also price your car since they do the pay out if it got totalled or stolen.

I got the value of my car off edmonds (Whats your car worth link to autotrader). I have a 2004 GT MT 26000 miles. Clean trade-in is $15650. Clean retail is $18175. If I traded at a dealer I would expect around $13000 cause that's what they do. If I sold outright I would ask $16000. Of course I might cave and go less. Depends on the response I get. I would sell in earley summer when the demand is higher for sportscars

Selling it private is the only way to go. Black book is what dealers use for trade in and similar to what the car would fetch at an auction which is nowhere near trade in much less private. I got a few offers to trade in my 05 Sport for 15-16K and ended up selling it private for 18.

Yup, Black book is the dealers trade- in not the cars's real worth. Dealers have to figure in prep, advertizing, lot space and time, salespeople and time, and general over head and still make a $1000 profit when they sell your trade. Black book is generally $1500 to $2000 less than true blue book value. True bluebook is what most people will sell thier car for outright with a little padding for negotiation. Buyers feels good if they can talk you down a few hundred from asking price. I only trade cars If dealers come close to blue book and I got the new car deal i wanted or I think there's something wrong with the car and not worth blue book. It makes econcomical sense to sell outright if your car is clean and mileage is average for it's age. All it takes is one weekend and an ad in the local classifeds. You will save thousands.

Keep in mind if you do trade what you get for the trade is deducted from the new car price and that price will be what you pay sales tax on. With that and what the dealer offered me for my last trade on a new car, brought my trade close to blue book. It should be considered when trading in a car.

Depending on your inequity, you should be able to talk them to 12500-13 if you're lucky. But 12 is reasonable.

When did people decide that car dealers should not be able to profit from their business. I may be a little biased, but people rarely get as fired up as when they are buying a car. People will do anything to a car dealer.

Comes from the perception that car dealers will do anything to their customers. That goes back a long way. The whole negotiation process leaves people with a very bad taste. The price dickering crap is a big reason why I keep cars a very long time.

It used to be even worse, until federal law required that dealers at least disclose a list price. Remember the days before stickers?

Buying my RX-8 was a pleasure because it was S-Plan. No negotiation. I knew I was getting a decent deal. Maybe not rock bottom, but decent. And the dealer was making a fair profit. We could both relax and enjoy the car.

Ken

Comes from the perception that car dealers will do anything to their customers. That goes back a long way. The whole negotiation process leaves people with a very bad taste. The price dickering crap is a big reason why I keep cars a very long time.

It used to be even worse, until federal law required that dealers at least disclose a list price. Remember the days before stickers?

Buying my RX-8 was a pleasure because it was S-Plan. No negotiation. I knew I was getting a decent deal. Maybe not rock bottom, but decent. And the dealer was making a fair profit. We could both relax and enjoy the car.

Ken

the happiest customers are the ones that don't negotiate, just buy the car on the first pencil. Customers that negotiate always feel like they're getting ripped off! Thats coming from a salesman! :)

the happiest customers are the ones that don't negotiate, just buy the car on the first pencil. Customers that negotiate always feel like they're getting ripped off! Thats coming from a salesman! :)

as a buyer (not seller). I always negotiate period. happy with price or not. why pass a good opportunity to pay even less for the sticker if they are willing to play with the numbers? 19k for a 2005 I would pay.. but would be happier if they would let it go for 17.5-18k. why not?

the happiest customers are the ones that don't negotiate, just buy the car on the first pencil. Customers that negotiate always feel like they're getting ripped off! Thats coming from a salesman! :)


Ha,ha,HA :lol: :spank:

as a buyer (not seller). I always negotiate period. happy with price or not. why pass a good opportunity to pay even less for the sticker if they are willing to play with the numbers? 19k for a 2005 I would pay.. but would be happier if they would let it go for 17.5-18k. why not?

Oh hell yea, I negotiate for everything! But point being is theres always people that no matter how much the dealer budges and trys to earn their business, theyrr still dissatified!! Alot of times dealers will take a loss of money just to get rid of a unit and the buyers are still not satisfied!!!

Great thread. In the end it's probably always worth more to you than you can sell it for.

Great thread. In the end it's probably always worth more to you than you can sell it for.

whats that supposed to mean? Were u trying to make a funny?

Oh hell yea, I negotiate for everything! But point being is theres always people that no matter how much the dealer budges and trys to earn their business, theyrr still dissatified!! Alot of times dealers will take a loss of money just to get rid of a unit and the buyers are still not satisfied!!!

gotcha :icon_tup:

Depending on your inequity, you should be able to talk them to 12500-13 if you're lucky. But 12 is reasonable.


Only if it were a sport. He says it's a GT and that the Vin is comming up sport. They should have offered him around $13000 if it's a GT. He could probably talk that up to $13,500. There is a price difference between the GT and Sport in trade value.

Sportrider, find out why your Vin says Sport and get it changed to GT if That's what you have.

whats that supposed to mean? Were u trying to make a funny?

I think that's one the truest statements out here ...

Your car is only worth:

... what someone is going to be willing to pay for it.

Which generally speaking ...

... is always far less than what you think it's worth.

13000-14000 if they overallow on the trade. Dealerships usually won't put alot of money into a car that isn't at high demand. Most dealers look on theyre computers to auctions to see what theyre going for and offer u that then overallow a grand to make the customer happy

the happiest customers are the ones that don't negotiate, just buy the car on the first pencil. Customers that negotiate always feel like they're getting ripped off! Thats coming from a salesman! :)

Ignorance is bliss.

Uncertainty is hell.

I've been happiest in deals where I did not dicker over price. Besides my S-Plan RX-8, I've bought a couple of cars that I knew were going for sticker. When I bought a VW Rabbit in the middle of a fuel crisis, the price was the price. But the salesman put his energy into finding one that was the color I wanted and had the equipment I wanted. Great experience, super dealership.

On deals where negotiation was involved...

o Had a Toyota salesman tell me what my wife wanted was not available at all. Real story was he wanted to sell something he had in stock, rather than do a factory order.

o Had a Honda salesman tell me another dealer's price was low because that dealer was selling grey market cars smuggled in through Peurto Rico, and did not meet US safety and emissions standards.

o After buying a Honda, had to endure the salesman and acting sales manager do their shtick about how much trouble they were going to be in when the boss found out how little they us sold the car for.

o "What would it take to put you in this car today..."

Always walked away from negotiations counting my fingers, not sure if I reall still had all of them.

Ken

Originally Posted by mike73737
Great thread. In the end it's probably always worth more to you than you can sell it for.


whats that supposed to mean? Were u trying to make a funny?


I think he means sellers remorse. Alot of guys here express that when they move on from thier beloved 8. It's a nice car.

yea I get what he was saying, sometimes its tough to accept that these 04's are only worth 11-14k. I sometimes can't believe it, I mean they were 30k 4 years ago and look new but hey, thats supply and demand!

Yup, Black book is the dealers trade- in not the cars's real worth. Dealers have to figure in prep, advertizing, lot space and time, salespeople and time, and general over head and still make a $1000 profit when they sell your trade. Black book is generally $1500 to $2000 less than true blue book value. True bluebook is what most people will sell thier car for outright with a little padding for negotiation. Buyers feels good if they can talk you down a few hundred from asking price. I only trade cars If dealers come close to blue book and I got the new car deal i wanted or I think there's something wrong with the car and not worth blue book. It makes econcomical sense to sell outright if your car is clean and mileage is average for it's age. All it takes is one weekend and an ad in the local classifeds. You will save thousands.

Keep in mind if you do trade what you get for the trade is deducted from the new car price and that price will be what you pay sales tax on. With that and what the dealer offered me for my last trade on a new car, brought my trade close to blue book. It should be considered when trading in a car.

Blah, Blah, blah... you had me at "true bluebook".... there is only one book you should really be concerned with and that is a checkbook. A car is WORTH exactly what someoen will pay for it, end of discussion.
As for the second part of your comment, that is state based. In Md they tax the sale price, but PA they tax the difference. Check with yoru state, or I found on Edmunds the other day a state by state breakdown of tax laws.

Blah, Blah, blah... you had me at "true bluebook".... there is only one book you should really be concerned with and that is a checkbook. A car is WORTH exactly what someoen will pay for it, end of discussion.
As for the second part of your comment, that is state based. In Md they tax the sale price, but PA they tax the difference. Check with yoru state, or I found on Edmunds the other day a state by state breakdown of tax laws.
Resale value is worth what someone will pay for it, trade in is a different figure thogh, thats what evryone needs to understand

Only if it were a sport. He says it's a GT and that the Vin is comming up sport. They should have offered him around $13000 if it's a GT. He could probably talk that up to $13,500. There is a price difference between the GT and Sport in trade value.

Sportrider, find out why your Vin says Sport and get it changed to GT if That's what you have.

This isn't really the case for 04 RX8's. It's basically stick or auto, followed by condition and miles. Options are Way BACK ON THE LIST when trying to decide a true value of one of these cars. It's just how it is.
I hope those that have had the GT package have enjoyed it while they had it, cause that's about all the value you will be getting from it. On the newer ones it tends to matter a bit more.

Resale value is worth what someone will pay for it, trade in is a different figure thogh, thats what evryone needs to understand

And all I am saying, is unless someone is willign to buy your car, what's it matter what they tell you it's worth. The only book I listen to is a check book. And yes, there si a COST to the simplicity of a trade, it should be obvious. If YOU put the work into advertising, cleaning up and meeting buyers, you will get a higher price. Isn't that obvious though?

true, options that add value are moonroof, leather, and navigation. Other than that its auto or 6spd.

And all I am saying, is unless someone is willign to buy your car, what's it matter what they tell you it's worth. The only book I listen to is a check book. And yes, there si a COST to the simplicity of a trade, it should be obvious. If YOU put the work into advertising, cleaning up and meeting buyers, you will get a higher price. Isn't that obvious though?

youd think itd be obvious but for some reason people dont get it! :)

Blah, Blah, blah... you had me at "true bluebook".... there is only one book you should really be concerned with and that is a checkbook. A car is WORTH exactly what someoen will pay for it, end of discussion.
As for the second part of your comment, that is state based. In Md they tax the sale price, but PA they tax the difference. Check with yoru state, or I found on Edmunds the other day a state by state breakdown of tax laws.

The car is worth what you let someone buy it for. I would not sell to someone who can't afford it.

Move to Wisconsin. Sportrider would save $1000 in sales tax if he traded on a $30,000 car.

I wasn't speaking about affording, I was speaking about will. If someone is willing and able to buy your car, that is a true cash offer of value. If soemone says your car is worth x, ask them to buy it. If they say no, there word is meaningless. Credit Unions don't have lots of cars, as far as I know, KBB has never bought a car before...

No, because his current car isn't titled there. Thus he hasn't paid taxes to Wisconsin on that car already, and therefore would be liable for the entire sale price, but good try.

everyone needs to forget that KBB exists, that book is never used by dealers and often creates confusion like whats in this thread. Half the time dealers don't even look in a 'book'! They look at the manheim auctions to see what cars are going for, which in this case is 11-14k pending on at,mt and miles, how shiny your wax job is is irrelevant!! Don't believe me, befriend another salesman and he'll tell ya too

This isn't really the case for 04 RX8's. It's basically stick or auto, followed by condition and miles. Options are Way BACK ON THE LIST when trying to decide a true value of one of these cars. It's just how it is.
I hope those that have had the GT package have enjoyed it while they had it, cause that's about all the value you will be getting from it. On the newer ones it tends to matter a bit more.


Autotrader lists the 04 GT $1500 more than the Sport for trade in value. Sorry but it's true.

I have an 04. It's in excellent shape. Had all the tsb's recalls done including the compression test, which it passed. Far as I'm concerned it's the same build as an 06 or 07. I have all the paper work. I can prove the cars reliability. That is another reason to sell outright. People like to check out the original owner, see how he maintained the car. The seller can answer any questions a dealer on trade could not answer personally. They will trust me more than a dealer who knows nothing about the car. I've never had trouble selling a car outright and always get 2 or 3g over dealer black book. Trading in is easy and no hassle but you pay the price for doing so. It is an expensive convenience.:rant:

No, because his current car isn't titled there. Thus he hasn't paid taxes to Wisconsin on that car already, and therefore would be liable for the entire sale price, but good try.

I said it is something to consider when trading on a new car. It's up to you to find out your state tax laws. It may apply for others as it did for me in Wisconsin. Comprede?:squint:

All of this points to why I am SO GLAD I leased my RX-8.

October 7, 2008, I hand the keys to Mazda and say "Thanks. Was fun. Not my problem now."

Stew, How much is the lease costing u?
Total not including insurance/gas,etc.

whats that supposed to mean? Were u trying to make a funny?

Wow, didn't think that would be controversial. No, I mean, and I'm talking about me and my opinion... that my car is worth more to me (fun to drive, etc) than it is to someone else (financially.) I'll drive this car until it's 10 years old because what I could get for it in dollars won't equal what I get out of it in enjoyment.

Make more sense?

yea I get what he was saying, sometimes its tough to accept that these 04's are only worth 11-14k. I sometimes can't believe it, I mean they were 30k 4 years ago and look new but hey, thats supply and demand!

It may be hard to believe, but it's not like you buy a sports car because you think it will appreciate (for the most part - granted there are some exceptions)

If you want to buy something that will be worth something in 4 years try stocks.

All of this points to why I am SO GLAD I leased my RX-8.

October 7, 2008, I hand the keys to Mazda and say "Thanks. Was fun. Not my problem now."


yes but you will pay out of the butt for the convenience of leasing. It's cheaper to own these days. And did you know you will pay for every little scratch ding, chip, exterior and interior that they can find and they will deduct it from your lease deposit. You will pay. Yes you will.:eyetwitch

Wow, didn't think that would be controversial. No, I mean, and I'm talking about me and my opinion... that my car is worth more to me (fun to drive, etc) than it is to someone else (financially.) I'll drive this car until it's 10 years old because what I could get for it in dollars won't equal what I get out of it in enjoyment.

Make more sense?

Yea my bad dude, at first it sounded like a smart ass comment but I was on my whole rant so I caught it shortly after. Im just trying to give everyone an insight at what these cars are going for trade wise. This should help people looking at 2004's. Dealerships all own these cars around an average of 11,500 dollars then ask 15-17,500 as the starting price. Im just here on the inside selling cars telling everyone the secrets that they shouldnt know, lol.

Wow, didn't think that would be controversial. No, I mean, and I'm talking about me and my opinion... that my car is worth more to me (fun to drive, etc) than it is to someone else (financially.) I'll drive this car until it's 10 years old because what I could get for it in dollars won't equal what I get out of it in enjoyment.

Make more sense?


That's how I feel. By the time I get rid of it resale will be the same as any other car that sold new in it's day and price range. 10 years should do it.:)

yes but you will pay out of the butt for the convenience of leasing. It's cheaper to own these days. And did you know you will pay for every little scratch ding, chip, exterior and interior that they can find and they will deduct it from your lease deposit. You will pay. Yes you will.:eyetwitch


No again, no treally. Turning in leases these days aren't so bad. Make sure the tires have 3/32's, make sure hte windsheild isn't cracked or noticably chipped, make sure there are no HUGE dents and dings. I jsut turned in my Jeep recently without a jack, a piece of trim in the back was broken, my front left fenderliner was tore up, my front left tire was cupped, I had a cigarette burn in the back seat,there was slack in the drivetrain, it was filthy and there were scratches all over it. My excess wear and tear bill was $0.00.

You don't necissarily pay out the butt for leasing, it depends on where you hit the depreciation curve. For example, my most recent lease was on a $32k sticker Grand Cherokee. Putting no money downa dn rolling $2700 negative in, I paid $368 a month for 39 months, and got rid of it for free. At the time, it was worth about $11k. My buyout price was $16, 600. If I had originally bought it, my original loan amt was about $26k. So, it would have cost me $15k to buy it cash, less depreciation. By leasing it, counting interest, I spent over $500 less. This is in addition to fact that I had 39 months on which to pay that smaller ammount of money. Does it alwyas work out ideally like this, NO. Does it usually work out close, YES. If you are going to get a new car every few years, and can concede the fact that you will have a payment, you will win by leasing. And before I here the high mileage BS, it's still works up to around 25k/yr as long as you design the lease right up front, and factor in how fast yoru car will depreciate.
If you plan to drive a car forever until it's wheels fall off, by all means, don't lease.

Yea my bad dude, at first it sounded like a smart ass comment but I was on my whole rant so I caught it shortly after. Im just trying to give everyone an insight at what these cars are going for trade wise. This should help people looking at 2004's. Dealerships all own these cars around an average of 11,500 dollars then ask 15-17,500 as the starting price. Im just here on the inside selling cars telling everyone the secrets that they shouldnt know, lol.

Quit being a snake. We already know that. The only reason car salesmen are not rich is because the dealers keep throwing thier money back into capital. Dealerships, I swear, they just keep getting bigger and bigger with more volume and many of the owners have multiple mega dealerships. Even thier kids have dealerships and they are only 18 years old. It's big business.

Ever hear of a SERVICE DEPT or a PARTS department, and those PARTS that your mechanic can't buy at napa?

No again, no treally. Turning in leases these days aren't so bad. Make sure the tires have 3/32's, make sure hte windsheild isn't cracked or noticably chipped, make sure there are no HUGE dents and dings. I jsut turned in my Jeep recently without a jack, a piece of trim in the back was broken, my front left fenderliner was tore up, my front left tire was cupped, I had a cigarette burn in the back seat,there was slack in the drivetrain, it was filthy and there were scratches all over it. My excess wear and tear bill was $0.00.

You don't necissarily pay out the butt for leasing, it depends on where you hit the depreciation curve. For example, my most recent lease was on a $32k sticker Grand Cherokee. Putting no money downa dn rolling $2700 negative in, I paid $368 a month for 39 months, and got rid of it for free. At the time, it was worth about $11k. My buyout price was $16, 600. If I had originally bought it, my original loan amt was about $26k. So, it would have cost me $15k to buy it cash, less depreciation. By leasing it, counting interest, I spent over $500 less. This is in addition to fact that I had 39 months on which to pay that smaller ammount of money. Does it alwyas work out ideally like this, NO. Does it usually work out close, YES. If you are going to get a new car every few years, and can concede the fact that you will have a payment, you will win by leasing. And before I here the high mileage BS, it's still works up to around 25k/yr as long as you design the lease right up front, and factor in how fast yoru car will depreciate.
If you plan to drive a car forever until it's wheels fall off, by all means, don't lease.

True, unless you have some hotshot dealer that tries to be a hard ass about it :) I returned a Jeep liberty renegade that was wrecked (but repaired) front plastic bumper had tears and scratches in it and a flat spare and I didnt pay a dime

It seems rather weird to me that in the last 10 years dealerships have literally exploded in size and quantity..

They seriously rival Walmart supercenters in size, and they're always upgrading and building new ones near the freeways..

My nearest Hummer dealer is gigantic and has this hilly dirt track setup, and there's even a Hummer bolted to the roof of the place.

No again, no treally. Turning in leases these days aren't so bad. Make sure the tires have 3/32's, make sure hte windsheild isn't cracked or noticably chipped, make sure there are no HUGE dents and dings. I jsut turned in my Jeep recently without a jack, a piece of trim in the back was broken, my front left fenderliner was tore up, my front left tire was cupped, I had a cigarette burn in the back seat,there was slack in the drivetrain, it was filthy and there were scratches all over it. My excess wear and tear bill was $0.00.

You don't necissarily pay out the butt for leasing, it depends on where you hit the depreciation curve. For example, my most recent lease was on a $32k sticker Grand Cherokee. Putting no money downa dn rolling $2700 negative in, I paid $368 a month for 39 months, and got rid of it for free. At the time, it was worth about $11k. My buyout price was $16, 600. If I had originally bought it, my original loan amt was about $26k. So, it would have cost me $15k to buy it cash, less depreciation. By leasing it, counting interest, I spent over $500 less. This is in addition to fact that I had 39 months on which to pay that smaller ammount of money. Does it alwyas work out ideally like this, NO. Does it usually work out close, YES. If you are going to get a new car every few years, and can concede the fact that you will have a payment, you will win by leasing. And before I here the high mileage BS, it's still works up to around 25k/yr as long as you design the lease right up front, and factor in how fast yoru car will depreciate.
If you plan to drive a car forever until it's wheels fall off, by all means, don't lease.

ok then, don't lease a Honda. They charged me an arm and a leg for a slight burnhole in the seat. Then they tried to charge me the other arm and a leg for a slight dent in the bumber which was already there before I leased. It was a used second hand lease by the way. A Honda promotion for fleet cars. It sucked and I got bored with the car after 2mos. It was an accord. i ended the lease early. My bad,

Quit being a snake. We already know that. The only reason car salesmen are not rich is because the dealers keep throwing thier money back into capital. Dealerships, I swear, they just keep getting bigger and bigger with more volume and many of the owners have multiple mega dealerships. Even thier kids have dealerships and they are only 18 years old. It's big business.

How am I being a snake by logging on to this website and telling people if theyre getting a good deal or not and looking up trade in, etc.:squint: Wow, sorry for being a snake everyone, guess I shouldnt have tried to help people out. Like it benefits me in any possible way if someone buys an 04 for 18 grand, whatever dude.

How am I being a snake by logging on to this website and telling people if theyre getting a good deal or not and looking up trade in, etc.:squint: Wow, sorry for being a snake everyone, guess I shouldnt have tried to help people out. Like it benefits me in any possible way if someone buys an 04 for 18 grand, whatever dude.


Give us break. What do you sell a clean 04 GT MT Rx8 for on the lot? Don't tell me your dealership doesn't ask high retail. I won't believe you. You have'nt said anything different than what I've said and I said it first. I'm the one helping others. I don't have to be a car salesman to know whats going on.

Quit being a snake. We already know that. The only reason car salesmen are not rich is because the dealers keep throwing thier money back into capital. Dealerships, I swear, they just keep getting bigger and bigger with more volume and many of the owners have multiple mega dealerships. Even thier kids have dealerships and they are only 18 years old. It's big business.
Oh and btw, Im not doing to bad for being a car salesman either, My family owns 3 car dealerships in california and Im a lead salesman In one the biggest dealership in Iowa, so I appreciate your opinion and your know it all attitude but quite honestly that was a false assessment of me and the dealership.

You have the same problem as most of my customers, you think you know everything.

Give us break. What do you sell a clean 04 GT MT Rx8 for on the lot? Don't tell me your dealership doesn't ask high retail. I won't believe you. You have'nt said anything different than what I've said and I said it first. I'm the one helping others. I don't have to be a car salesman to know whats going on.

We have an 04 AT for 16,995/ another 04 AT for 15,995/ and an 05 MT for about 19,995 all starting prices. But heres the kicker, the dealer will probably sell them to you for alot cheaper if you negotiate:Eyecrazy: Crazy concept huh

Give us break. What do you sell a clean 04 GT MT Rx8 for on the lot? Don't tell me your dealership doesn't ask high retail. I won't believe you. You have'nt said anything different than what I've said and I said it first. I'm the one helping others. I don't have to be a car salesman to know whats going on.
True, but I am a carsalesman and I know EXACTLY whats going on and if this is a pride thing because I repeated something you said than my bad, but dont sit here and call me a snake for explaining to people how it works, because unlike you, some people dont get it so I was trying to explain to them. BTW read the title of the thread and look at my occupation, Gee my bad for telling everyone how a dealership works since Im at one every day:eyetwitch

True, but I am a carsalesman and I know EXACTLY whats going on and if this is a pride thing because I repeated something you said than my bad, but dont sit here and call me a snake for explaining to people how it works, because unlike you, some people dont get it so I was trying to explain to them. BTW read the title of the thread and look at my occupation, Gee my bad for telling everyone how a dealership works since Im at one every day:eyetwitch

C,mon, you don't think we see through this. You told us very little. Try telling them that auction prices are only for registered dealers. Tell them that they can not come on your lot and buy an rx8 for auction prices. Tell them you trade by aution prices but sell at full retail. Tell them no private seller will sell his car(any car) at auction prices unless it's stolen or missing an engine. Tell us how dealers have two separate sets of rules when buying and selling. Tell us how much more profit dealers make than private sellers selling the same car. Tell us how private sellers will always undercut a dealers price by thousands. Tell them aution prices do not set public selling prices. TELL THEM. Your family is not hurting. Some day you will be a dealership owner and so will your son or daughter. Big bussiness.

C,mon, you don't think we see through this. You told us very little. Try telling them that auction prices are only for registered dealers. Tell them that they can not come on your lot and buy an rx8 for auction prices. Tell them you trade by aution prices but sell at full retail. Tell them no private seller will sell his car(any car) at auction prices unless it's stolen or missing an engine. Tell us how dealers have two separate sets of rules when buying and selling. Tell us how much more profit dealers make than private sellers selling the same car. Tell us how private sellers will always undercut a dealers price by thousands. Tell them aution prices do not set public selling prices. TELL THEM. Your family is not hurting. Some day you will be a dealership owner and so will your son or daughter. Big bussiness.

ummm.....so you must have had a bad experience with a dealership huh?? You honestly have no idea what your talking about. Read the 4 pages and Ive actually said quite a bit about ACV and trade in. Yes Dealers have seperate auction prices, which are also what they base trade value on, and yes there is a different retail price, thats how they make profit. My family is NOT hurting nor am I. The money that goes into capitol has nothing to do with commission either you moron. Dealer vehicles are more money because they were actually inspected, detailed, and sold by comissioned salesman. Theres alot more to selling a car than you ignorant ass knows! Its not that easy! And so you know, if a unit is old age and the dealership wants to let it go, they WILL sell it for what they got in it! Not all dealers are crooks!! Nor am I so why dont you reread this entire thread and educate yourself before you embaress yourself further...

C,mon, you don't think we see through this. You told us very little. Try telling them that auction prices are only for registered dealers. Tell them that they can not come on your lot and buy an rx8 for auction prices. Tell them you trade by aution prices but sell at full retail. Tell them no private seller will sell his car(any car) at auction prices unless it's stolen or missing an engine. Tell us how dealers have two separate sets of rules when buying and selling. Tell us how much more profit dealers make than private sellers selling the same car. Tell us how private sellers will always undercut a dealers price by thousands. Tell them aution prices do not set public selling prices. TELL THEM. Your family is not hurting. Some day you will be a dealership owner and so will your son or daughter. Big bussiness.


First of all, let me take a wild stab and say that you are not under 40. If you are, you've listened to your father too long. Most of what I have read from you in this thread is a very outdated version of beat the car guy.... the business isn't liek that anymore.

Of course auction prices are for dealers only, and with good rason. The avst majority of people wouldn't know what to look for or what to pay on the spot.
Of course delaers buy cars at low prices and sell them at higher ones, should that be strange to anyone?

Private sellers profit more as they never put the same reconditioning into a car that a dealer does.

No most often private sellers will not sell their cars at auction prices, and they shouldn't if they go through the effort of reconditioning, advertising and selling the car. If they want to dump a car for cash on the spot, they will likely sell it at a wholesale type price.

Private sellers will often undercut dealers by thousands, and provide a sub-par product at that point. Know of many private sellers that offer reliable warranties? How about financing? At least detail the car, and make sure the Pads, Rotors, Tires and glass are all good? Touch up all scratches and dents? How about have a good selection? Proivide a proffessional walkthrough going over features and options? Safety features? Pay your trade off? Take trades at all?


Here is the end all? Don't think youa re getting value form what a dealer provides? Buy it on your own, noone is forcing to do so, but guess what, most people still do. Sell your car on your own, guess what it's a free market. To make all entities known as dealers out to be crooks becuase they turn a profit is a joke.

What is it that you do? What is your occupation?

ummm.....so you must have had a bad experience with a dealership huh?? You honestly have no idea what your talking about. Read the 4 pages and Ive actually said quite a bit about ACV and trade in. Yes Dealers have seperate auction prices, which are also what they base trade value on, and yes there is a different retail price, thats how they make profit. My family is NOT hurting nor am I. The money that goes into capitol has nothing to do with commission either you moron. Dealer vehicles are more money because they were actually inspected, detailed, and sold by comissioned salesman. Theres alot more to selling a car than you ignorant ass knows! Its not that easy! And so you know, if a unit is old age and the dealership wants to let it go, they WILL sell it for what they got in it! Not all dealers are crooks!! Nor am I so why dont you reread this entire thread and educate yourself before you embaress yourself further...


Naw, I did'nt embarrass myself. And there you go always the salesman. You don't know me but I can feel you. You softened up alittle but still stuck your pride on me. Again you said nothing constructive That this "know it all" does not already know and already said. Good day.

First of all, let me take a wild stab and say that you are not under 40. If you are, you've listened to your father too long. Most of what I have read from you in this thread is a very outdated version of beat the car guy.... the business isn't liek that anymore.

Of course auction prices are for dealers only, and with good rason. The avst majority of people wouldn't know what to look for or what to pay on the spot.
Of course delaers buy cars at low prices and sell them at higher ones, should that be strange to anyone?

Private sellers profit more as they never put the same reconditioning into a car that a dealer does.

No most often private sellers will not sell their cars at auction prices, and they shouldn't if they go through the effort of reconditioning, advertising and selling the car. If they want to dump a car for cash on the spot, they will likely sell it at a wholesale type price.

Private sellers will often undercut dealers by thousands, and provide a sub-par product at that point. Know of many private sellers that offer reliable warranties? How about financing? At least detail the car, and make sure the Pads, Rotors, Tires and glass are all good? Touch up all scratches and dents? How about have a good selection? Proivide a proffessional walkthrough going over features and options? Safety features? Pay your trade off? Take trades at all?


Here is the end all? Don't think youa re getting value form what a dealer provides? Buy it on your own, noone is forcing to do so, but guess what, most people still do. Sell your car on your own, guess what it's a free market. To make all entities known as dealers out to be crooks becuase they turn a profit is a joke.

What is it that you do? What is your occupation?

LEARN TO READ. Your obviously responding to one post. You know what starts arguements? People who don't read and make wild assumptions on one post. Live and learn sonny.

LEARN TO READ. Your obviously responding to one post. You know what starts arguements? People who don't read and make wild assumptions on one post. Live and learn sonny.

NO, WHAT STARTS ARGUEMENTS ARE IGNORANT ASSHOLES LIKE YOURSELF! Hows that for softening up! What are u trying to prove here, what are u trying to accomplish!? That you can out wit a salesman?! What ARE you trying to prove here?

LEARN TO READ. Your obviously responding to one post. You know what starts arguements? People who don't read and make wild assumptions on one post. Live and learn sonny.

NO I'm responding to this entire thread worth of yoiur mindless babble. You are not helping anyoen here with your antiquated outdated tactics. I am seriously asking what it is that you do for a career. I am 99% certain that whatever it is you do, the owner of your companies profit margins are no less then 4 times what a dealer makes on the sale of cars. If you own your own business in any way, youa re likely cahrging your clients around 20 times the profit margin that a dealer does on cars. For every $20k in gross sales a dealer is LUCKY to make $1k. MOst dealerships up and down every street are writing their sales department financial statements in red ink.

I am discussing the VALUE inserted by the dealer, and the cost to the buyer. You are sharing NOTHING relevant to the discussion. Myself and the Renesis guy have done a pretty thourough job of how to assertain used car value in a variety of forms. All you have done is spread blatant falcies and wild speculation. THe informationa dn takes you have provided in this thread should be taken as worthless to all readers.

And yes I am prepared for your snide- salesman remark to that. "Of course they don't wnat us to know this..."

Naw, I did'nt embarrass myself. And there you go always the salesman. You don't know me but I can feel you. You softened up alittle but still stuck your pride on me. Again you said nothing constructive That this "know it all" does not already know and already said. Good day.

AHHH, so you ARE pissed because I said something you said. Thats it isnt it, you dont like what Im saying because I have the credential of being a salesman. See I can feel you out too, now I said something you dont know. Good day to you too:icon_no2:

ok then, don't lease a Honda. They charged me an arm and a leg for a slight burnhole in the seat. Then they tried to charge me the other arm and a leg for a slight dent in the bumber which was already there before I leased. It was a used second hand lease by the way. A Honda promotion for fleet cars. It sucked and I got bored with the car after 2mos. It was an accord. i ended the lease early. My bad,

oops I missed this one. You didn't lease this car through HONDA. Honda provides for 3 occurrences up to $500 each, for free.

AHHH, so you ARE pissed because I said something you said. Thats it isnt it, you dont like what Im saying because I have the credential of being a salesman. See I can feel you out too, now I said something you dont know. Good day to you too:icon_no2:


You two should team up and start a dealership together. You got something in common. ME, the customer. Hope ya'all feel better now.

C,mon, you don't think we see through this. You told us very little. Try telling them that auction prices are only for registered dealers. Tell them that they can not come on your lot and buy an rx8 for auction prices. Tell them you trade by aution prices but sell at full retail. Tell them no private seller will sell his car(any car) at auction prices unless it's stolen or missing an engine. Tell us how dealers have two separate sets of rules when buying and selling. Tell us how much more profit dealers make than private sellers selling the same car. Tell us how private sellers will always undercut a dealers price by thousands. Tell them aution prices do not set public selling prices. TELL THEM. Your family is not hurting. Some day you will be a dealership owner and so will your son or daughter. Big bussiness.

WTF - who pissed in your corn flakes??? Sounds like a car salesman slept with your wife, then took your daughter to Vegas and pimped her out. Sounds very personal. lol :lol:

Calm down, or you might not enjoy driving that RX8 anymore. Take a long drive along a deserted curvy road and let it out. :)

WTF - who pissed in your corn flakes??? Sounds like a car salesman slept with your wife, then took your daughter to Vegas and pimped her out. Sounds very personal. lol :lol:

Calm down, or you might not enjoy driving that RX8 anymore. Take a long drive along a deserted curvy road and let it out. :)

No nothing personal with me anyway. But thanks for the fantasy. Got to go to the auction now. bye

You dont really think the dealer will give you anywhere near the "book" value for your car, do you? They are in the business of making money not breaking even. Sell it privately or you're going to take a beating.

Here's some reading...

http://www.carbuyingtips.com/

Wow, this thread turned into a flame fest real quick!! At least the first 3 pages had some good info!! :)

No nothing personal with me anyway. But thanks for the fantasy. Got to go to the auction now. bye

Wow man, what is your deal? Im to the point where Im not even pissed, this is just getting funny:lol:

Wow man, what is your deal? Im to the point where Im not even pissed, this is just getting funny:lol:

Yes, but the joke was on you. I'm glad your a sport. I respect that.:)

Ive noticed a funny trend with KBB. I call it the 2g rule. Take whatever crap shoot price KBB tells you for trade in value and immediatly knock $2000 off that. Go to the dealership and I will bet they offer you that amount give or take $100.

People have to realize there is not alot of markup in most cars today. Honda Fit's only have $400 markup in them. Most mid size sedans are around $2000. Hell even a $60,000 Escalade might only have $4,000 if its loaded. The car business is not what it use to be because the major automakers do not have as big a slice of the pie as they did 20 years ago. It's much more competitive.

My biggest piece of advice is dont be affraid of the salesman. He wants to sell you a car, its what he woke up for. And if you do your homework you should easily be able to go in with a resonable price in mind. Just watch your ass in the finance office, thats where you will lose it.

Yes, but the joke was on you. I'm glad your a sport. I respect that.:)

What joke, wtf are you talking about?

Yes, but the joke was on you. I'm glad your a sport. I respect that.:)

How is the joke on him? Your the one that got made a fool by two young whipper-snappers while you looked liek the old codgery grandpa that lost his mind. Just admit you were in over your head and knew not of what you spoke, and maybe we'll keep the laughing down.

How is the joke on him? Your the one that got made a fool by two young whipper-snappers while you looked liek the old codgery grandpa that lost his mind. Just admit you were in over your head and knew not of what you spoke, and maybe we'll keep the laughing down.

Guess hes ran out of crap to say! :lol:

Ive noticed a funny trend with KBB. I call it the 2g rule. Take whatever crap shoot price KBB tells you for trade in value and immediatly knock $2000 off that. Go to the dealership and I will bet they offer you that amount give or take $100.



Yes and no... KBB is really jsut that poor that there isn't5 really a way to justify it... First off, there is no such thing as excellent. I will find something wrong with yoru car. Few cars are good, most are FAIR. Secondly, if you drove 20k a year or over, plan to subtract about 25% of the value, becuase your car is no retailable in any manner really. Next, multiply it by about 85%. It really depends on which parts will need to be replaced, and how much time will be spent on reconditioning the exterior.

Play a game, check a 200 model year car with 20k miles and 999k miles, the difference is a joke.

Since KBB is so universal, I used to likr to pencil my trade appraisals on them. Take KBB fair, circle it. Appraise car and get real wholesale value. Decide what I will be allowing on the car at that point. Look at trade appraisal, see where I deducted, and write repair costs and instances down to subtract until I get to my planned allowance. Sometimes I backwards calculated things for my purpose, but the thoguht was to give validity to what someone is saying, while explaining it was wrong. Kind of riding the wave into the shore, to wash back to sea, rather then crashing into it. At the same time, it was a fairly frank way of allowing people to look behind the scenes. It's not like a car is traded at $16k, washed and taken up front and sold for $22k. That's not what goes into making a car retail ready at a reputable lot.