Here is an article out of my local paper regarding the "black box" recorder that can be found in many Ford and GM vehicles. They are trying to use this information to determine the guilt of a police officer who was driving his personal car and ended up killing one of his passengers.

http://www.tennessean.com/local/archives/03/10/40966684.shtml?Element_ID=40966684

If you own one of the cars on the list, I would suggest you locate the black box and find a way to remove it. That information will be used against you if you are ever in an accident.

it also records all of the info for engine management problems. if you removed it, the engine techs wouldn't be able to figure out what was wrong.

Originally posted by zoom44
it also records all of the info for engine management problems. if you removed it, the engine techs wouldn't be able to figure out what was wrong.


that would defently be problamatic

I'd be interested in hearing more opinions on this issue, as it appears there may be serious talk of making this a requirement in the future. The debate is probably on-going...

It occurs to me that data recorders can be a benefit, just as they have been for other modes of transportation, if executed properly.

Originally posted by tagS60
If you own one of the cars on the list, I would suggest you locate the black box and find a way to remove it. That information will be used against you if you are ever in an accident.

What if the information could be used to show your innocence and somebody elses guilt, and was the only data that swayed either way conclusively?

There's as good a chance that this could be used for you or against you. I don't have a problem with devices like this that would only be used in the event of an accident - what I'm more worried about is the potentially always-on car tracking that's being talked about in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2975216.stm

Cell phone triangulation is already in place (in NA as well I believe).

UK: more CCTV cameras per capita than any other country in the world. It may not be a fascist state, but were it to become one, it would be well-equipped...

It usually also controls the computer that sets off your airbags, and it's tied into Onstar for your GM cars.

The problem is that very few car owners even know that their cars collect this type of information. Further, almost no state have any laws regarding its use. What if your state decided to use this information to issue speeding tickets? What if it was decided that anyone exceeding the speed limit when they got into an accident was automaticly at fault, no matter what the other driver did? What if this information is used to track your whereabouts?

It also raises some other issues:
-What kind of information is recorded?
-Who has access to this info?
-Who do they give, or sell this information to?
-How is this information stored? Is it secure?
-Who owns this information?
-Can the information be retreived remotely? (think OnStar)

Apparently they also experimented with a cockpit voice recorder on some of these black boxes. In Texas, the most common utterance before a fatal crash was "Hey y'all, hold ma beer and watch this!" ;)

Originally posted by eccles
Apparently they also experimented with a cockpit voice recorder on some of these black boxes. In Texas, the most common utterance before a fatal crash was "Hey y'all, hold ma beer and watch this!" ;)

not funny but true

ok its funny

Some OBDIII ECU's also record which seats had occupants and if their seatbelts was fastened in a collision. Think about that one: auto/medical insurance liability and admissibility in a court of law. Data is recorded, reviewable by a manufacturer only for "quality assurance" purposes, but currently inadmissible. Thus far....
:eek:

Originally posted by eccles
Apparently they also experimented with a cockpit voice recorder on some of these black boxes. In Texas, the most common utterance before a fatal crash was "Hey y'all, hold ma beer and watch this!" ;)
Y'all got yourself a little star sticker.
I'm still trying to catch my breath....I know that an accident context is not funny, but the Texan impersonation is flawless.

Hey y'all! have a good night.

Originally posted by tagS60
What if it was decided that anyone exceeding the speed limit when they got into an accident was automaticly at fault, no matter what the other driver did?

Interestingly enough, it was exactly this flawed reasoning in statistics that kept the national speed limit at 55 for so many years...

more big brother

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3178579.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3121652.stm

Now this (http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/ca9/newopinions.nsf/7BD3F8D6A62D994588256DE2005C863B/$file/0215635.pdf?openelement) is scary. Since we're talking about black box invasion of privacy, this link is the legal ruling of an FBI attempt to spy on a car's owner via telematics. Doesn't apply to the Mazda yet since we don't have integrated phone comms, but just wait. In the meantime, who's to say the navigation manufacturer can't tap into the system CPU and see where you've been (whether or not the nav was in use at the time.) I'm something of a privacy nut, and while I have nothing to hide I believe where I go and what I do is no one's business, particularly not the governments. Seems like if they can track, they want to track you.

A summary of the case, which I received from the Electronic Privacy Information Center, is:

"The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that a lower court should not have allowed the FBI to order a telematics company to convert an automobile's navigation system into a wiretapping device. On-board telematics systems use cellular technology to provide location information, data and voice communication, and information about the condition of the vehicle. The systems are used to aid in navigation, or to alert police to an accident or emergency. The Court of Appeals found that the conversion of a telematics device into an eavesdropping system excessively interfered with the car's emergency features."

Sounds like an OnStar system because the spooks were able to listen into in-car conversations. This was overturned not because of invasion of privacy or other civil rights reasons, but because it interfered with the safety features of the car. Pretty shaky grounds because that can probably be overcome.

I see this being used for denial of warranty claims in the future more than anything else.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
I see this being used for denial of warranty claims in the future more than anything else.

Actually, the original reason given for capturing data was for safety purposes. Post-crash data could be analyzed to see how to make cars safer. It would be nice if the data usage were so limited, but it has already gone way beyond that.

Black box data is being sought in civil litigation to prove the owner of the car was at fault, either by the manufacturer as you state to wriggle out of warranty claims, or by injured third parties to show you didn't brake hard enough/soon enough, didn't steer appropriately, etc. It is the "instant replay" making everyone a Monday morning quarterback second-guessing your decision as a driver. I am sure anyone could be found at some degree of fault in any incident, and this is how the data is being used.

Secondly, it is being confiscated by police for criminal investigation against the driver and being used against them in court. I don't know if this requires a search warrant or not, but either way it is happening now.

Rarely, if ever, could the black box data be used for the benefit of the driver; most scenarios have only a downside. This is because it records your actions, but not those of other parties, so it is unknown what degree of fault they have. Unless, of course, their black box data is also taken. For this reason, I would just as soon have my black box removed. I don't know where it is or how to access it, and particularly whether this would damage other automotive functions. I think manufacturers are being intentionally obtuse about this; they don't want rampant black-box removal.

The issue that seems lost here is, I bought the car. It is mine. Every nut, bolt and electron. Mazda did not "retain" ownership of any part of that car (unlike, say, computer software where you license it, but not really own it, which is why you can't legally share or modify software.)

If the car is mine than any data created by or stored in the car is also mine. What right does Mazda or any thind party -- short of a court order -- have to data in the car? I would say none. I haven't seen any major legal fight yet on this front, but it's only a matter of time. It is the encroachment of Big Brother which may not seem like a big deal in tiny steps, but little by little pervades more and more of our lives. there is little, if any, privacy left for us anymore.