Why not?

'Cause it would cost them several thousand dollars per car, which would be added to the sticker price. I'd rather not, myself.

---jps

Originally posted by Sputnik
'Cause it would cost them several thousand dollars per car, which would be added to the sticker price. I'd rather not, myself.

---jps

If Mercedes can include free maintenance on a $25,000 C230 Kompressor, Then why can’t Mazda do the same for the $29,000+ Mazda RX-8?

I find it hard to believe that Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi add thousand of dollars to the sticker price of their cars because of their "free scheduled maintenance" program, Hundreds maybe, but not thousands. The Audi A4 3.0 lists for approx $32,000 dollars, Maintenance included. The A4 is priced in the same range as the Infiniti G35 which does not include maintenance. The same goes for the $25,000 Mercedes 230 Kompressor.

Mercedes can do it because that C230 that base prices at $24,000 should really base price at about $20,000 based on what you actually get in that car.

Personally, I'd rather have them put some of that extra money into the car, rather than into providing me with free oil changes for 3 years.

Originally posted by Jerome81
Mercedes can do it because that C230 that base prices at $24,000 should really base price at about $20,000 based on what you actually get in that car.

Personally, I'd rather have them put some of that extra money into the car, rather than into providing me with free oil changes for 3 years.
I'd say less than that even. You don't get ANYTHING in that C230, even the Mazda6 comes with more.

Originally posted by Jerome81
Personally, I'd rather have them put some of that extra money into the car, rather than into providing me with free oil changes for 3 years.

It's more than oil changes. 15K mi tune up is about $250-$300. 30Kmi tune-up is $500+. Not mention oil changes and the unnecessary fluid checks that they charge you for.

Also, the Equipment level of a Base Mercedes Benz C230, is more than that of any $25K and under Mazda. I put together a list of the standard items on a C230 (via) KBB.com.

Standard Equipment --------

Air Conditioning, Dual-Zone Automatic

Alarm System

Armrest w/Storage

Axle Ratio, 3.46

Battery, 100-Amp.

Brakes, Power F&R Disc

Braking System, Anti-Lock

Cargo Cover

Clock, Digital (Stand Alone)

Console w/Storage

Cup Holders

Defroster, Rear Window

Door Trim Panels, Cloth

Drivetrain, RWD

Engine: 4-Cyl., 16V, SFI, Supercharged, 1.8 Liter

Entry System, Illuminated Keyless Remote Control

Floor Mats

Fog Lights, F&R

Fuel Tank, 16.4 Gal. Cap.

Garage Door Opener

Headlamp Control, Auto

Lights: Daytime Running, Glove Box & Reading

Locking System, Central w/Automatic Door Locks

Mirrors, Dual Heated Power w/Turn Signals & Dual Illuminated Visor Vanity

Moldings, Body Side

Radio, AM/FM Stereo w/Cassette

Restraint System: Dual Front, F&R Head Curtain & Side Impact Air Bag

Seats, Cloth Sport Bucket w/Split Folding Rear

Slip Control, Automatic

Speed Control

Spoiler, Rear

Stability Program, Electronic

Stabilizer Bars, F&R

Steering Wheel, Leather-Wrapped w/Touch Controls

Steering Wheel, Tilt & Telescoping

Steering, Variable Assist Power

Tachometer

Telephone Pre-Wiring, Cellular

Tires, (4) P205/55HR16

Traction Control

Trans., 6-Spd. Manual w/Overdrive

Trip Computer

Trunk Entrapment Release

W/S Wipers, Heated Intermittent

Walk-in-Device

Wheels, Aluminum Alloy

Windows, Power


Which Mazda at $25K has this level of equipment standard? None, prove me wrong.
So if MB can do it, Mazda should be able to. No excuses. I don’t know who told you guys that the C230 didn’t come with anything standard, but they were misguided.

Originally posted by Hercules

I'd say less than that even. You don't get ANYTHING in that C230, even the Mazda6 comes with more.


I just looked at the level of standard equipment for the millenia (sp?). The $29K+ Millenia barely had more standard equipment than the MB C-230 Kompressor. I could not find anything about the Mazda6's standard level of equipment but, the 626, MX-5 and protege' all have lower standard equipment levels than the C230. They should, they cost less.

Because Mercedes, Audi and BMW all have high-end vehicles where they make $10k profit per car or more - they can throw a few bones your way (even on their low end cars). Mazda doesn't.

I doubt it costs more than $1000 over 3 years for those manufacturers that offer free servicing (if the customer had to pay it would be more of course). Those cars that 'decide for you' when servicing is required might only require 2 oil-changes in the first 30k miles (total value $200?).

Originally posted by Spoonie

Also, the Equipment level of a Base Mercedes Benz C230, is more than that of any $25K and under Mazda. I put together a list of the standard items on a C230 (via) KBB.com.

Right....

Did you actually read the list? It's mostly stuff like "Windows", "Tires (4)", "Seats, cloth", "Battery"... etc.

Yeah, I don't know what mazda you could possibly get with a battery and four (yes, 4! :eek: ) tires for under 25k...

There's almost nothing on that list that isn't available standard on the cheapest economy cars like the Neon, Civic, etc.... please tell me that this was some kind of joke...

Check out CarsDirect.com, the c230 starts at $25k and loaded is nearly $33k. The RX-8 is supposedly $26k base and $30k loaded, and will DESTROY the c230 in any race without breaking a sweat... that's where the cost is: PERFORMANCE.

LOL. I was going to make the same point - a long list of nothing for the C230. Didn't Car & Driver once directly compare the $25k C230 to a $25k Hyundai XG300 and say the Hyundai was better?

Show me some REAL items like a CD player (missing) or VSC (missing) or power seats (missing) or auto-dimming mirrors (missing) or Xenon lights (missing) etc.

Spoonie, do you actually think that "free scheduled maintenance" is actally free? Do you think that the automotive companies are providing it out of sheer generousity and kindness? Of course they aren't. They're doing it because they charge more for their cars to cover the costs, and they can use it as a selling point for selling more cars at the higher prices.

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

-Patrick

Since we are paying MSRP, maybe the dealers should provide free maintenance.

Originally posted by m477
There's almost nothing on that list that isn't available standard on the cheapest economy cars like the Neon, Civic, etc.... please tell me that this was some kind of joke....

Does a neon come standard with:

1) Alarm System
2) Armrest
3) Headlamp Control, Auto
4) Garage door opener
5) Mirrors, Dual Heated
6) Traction Control
7) Trans., 6-Spd. Manual w/Overdrive
8) Trip Computer
9) W/S Wipers, Heated Intermittent
10) Walk-in-Device (?)

It doesn't. Thats almost nothing? I dont like the MB230, but you are exagerating a little.

Originally posted by pelucidor
Show me some REAL items like a CD player (missing) or VSC (missing) or power seats (missing) or auto-dimming mirrors (missing) or Xenon lights (missing) etc.

VSC = Traction control. And yes its standard on the C230.

Show me a Mazda or any other car that cost $25K or under that has Xenon lights, Power seats, and Auto-Dimming mirrors standard. Remember, We are talking about standard items, not options.

Originally posted by Hercules

I'd say less than that even. You don't get ANYTHING in that C230, even the Mazda6 comes with more.

Where is the list of mazda6 standard options? So we can compare. Talk is cheap, You posted this before I posted my list of MB230 standard items so you are forgiven. The only item that the 6 will have standard that the MB230 doesn't is probably a CD player.

Originally posted by Spoonie
Which Mazda at $25K has this level of equipment standard? None, prove me wrong.

I'm Waiting...

i think you got em on that one spoonie!

Originally posted by Spoonie
If Mercedes can include free maintenance on a $25,000 C230 Kompressor, Then why can’t Mazda do the same for the $29,000+ Mazda RX-8?

I find it hard to believe that Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, and Audi add thousand of dollars to the sticker price of their cars because of their "free scheduled maintenance" program, Hundreds maybe, but not thousands. The Audi A4 3.0 lists for approx $32,000 dollars, Maintenance included. The A4 is priced in the same range as the Infiniti G35 which does not include maintenance. The same goes for the $25,000 Mercedes 230 Kompressor. You're going to be paying for it one way or another. Whether it's calculated in the sticker price, or afterwards. The amount also depends on what is actually included in "maintenance", and what is considered "wear items".

---jps

Originally posted by Spoonie


I'm Waiting...
Why are you instigating? You looking for a fight or something?

Get lost, you continue to troll.

Originally posted by Hercules

Why are you instigating? You looking for a fight or something?

Get lost, you continue to troll.

That is how you respond when you are defeated? Or if the conversation doesn't go your way? When I am wrong I accept it. You should do the same.

Hey Spoonie, you make some good points. However you have to remember that there is a huge difference between the two car companies. With mercs you tend to get more customer satisfaction perks; which include stuff like maintainance etc.... These perks are essentially what seperate the cars' costs and separate the car companies. Although free regulary maintainance was not included when I bought my car, but whenever I'm in the area of my dealership - I bring in the car for an oil change, check up and they do this for free.

I totally understand what you are saying though, this forum can be a little harsh at times :)

Originally posted by Immi
Hey Spoonie, you make some good points. However you have to remember that there is a huge difference between the two car companies. With mercs you tend to get more customer satisfaction perks; which include stuff like maintainance etc.... These perks are essentially what seperate the cars' costs and separate the car companies. Although free regulary maintainance was not included when I bought my car, but whenever I'm in the area of my dealership - I bring in the car for an oil change, check up and they do this for free.

I totally understand what you are saying though, this forum can be a little harsh at times :)


That is why I think Mazda should have a separate luxury car division, similar to Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus. The Millenia and the 929 would have qualified.

This forum is harsh sometimes. I guess some folks do not like it when you "shake up the establishment". It’s amazing how folks get personal here when you critique the RX-8.

Originally posted by Spoonie


I'm Waiting...

The Mazda6s lists for 20k. It's standard equipment can be found at http://www.edmunds.com/new/2003/mazda/6/s4drsedan30l6cyl5m/standard.html?id=lin0014
Surprising that you couldn't find this yourself, since it was trivial for me. Easier to grandstand here than do a little legwork, I guess.

Anyway, the Mazda6s includes standard a 220 HP 3.0 liter 24-valve DOHC V6 with variable valve timing, traction control ,4-wheel ABS, 8-way adjustable power driver's seat with lumbar support, CD player, cruise control, steering wheel stereo controls, leather steering wheel and shifter, remote alarm, tilt/telescoping steering wheel, fold-down rear seats, and climate control with rear heating ducts.

You want 25k, though? Add the Bose stereo (includes 6-disc in-dash CD), leather package, rear and side curtain airbags, moonroof, and comfort package (heated seats and external mirrors), and you're at 24.5k MSRP, with Edmunds giving the price people are actually paying for that car at $23,090, giving you more features than the mercedes and $2000 in pocket for either the $800 sport package and $1200 in repairs or $2000 in repairs if you would rather.

Originally posted by Spoonie



This forum is harsh sometimes. I guess some folks do not like it when you "shake up the establishment". It’s amazing how folks get personal here when you critique the RX-8.

And critique we must! I think the biggest service this forum provides is helping those of us willing to buy this car make a good decision. Let's hear it all - positive and negative!

BTW, Mercedes to Mazda is waaayy too apples and oranges to make a fair comparison of service programs....IMHO.

Oh, and to get the Bose stereo, sunroof, and leather on the C230 (with less power and cargo and seating capacity than the $23k Mazda6s), you have to add the $3000 premium package, giving you an MSRP of $28,500. Edmunds says that you'll have to pay at least that MSRP, too, and that most people are actually having to pay $200 *more* than MSRP for this car.

Again, do you really think that "free" maintenance is actually free?

TANSTAAFL.

-Patrick

Originally posted by PatrickB
Again, do you really think that "free" maintenance is actually free?

TANSTAAFL.

-Patrick

Not really, I would like for the option of all maintenance to be included with the price of the car.

What does TANSTAAFL stand for?

Originally posted by Spoonie


What does TANSTAAFL stand for?


There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Originally posted by Spoonie


Not really, I would like for the option of all maintenance to be included with the price of the car.



You know, if you asked the dealer, they could probably give you the price on all scheduled maintenance and let you prepay for it. I'm sure they'd be happy to earn interest on $1200 while you put 30k miles on the car, instead of you keeping the money while you use the car and getting that interest yourself...

-Patrick

I think a maintainance package should be included upon purchasing a rx8 - basically because of the history the last rotory powered car left behind in north america and the fact that it is a totally different engine.


Plus it's better for competition.

Originally posted by Immi
I think a maintainance package should be included upon purchasing a rx8 - basically because of the history the last rotory powered car left behind in north america and the fact that it is a totally different engine.


That's not a bad idea at all - requiring people to come in for scheduled maintenance so you can make sure that the oil changes and routine maintenance happen on time for such a new (and unfamiliar) engine in case of any later warranty claims (which killed Mazda on the RX-7) is a good idea.

This thread is getting a little ridiculous. Korean Hyundai junk-mobiles can't compare to Mercedes quality even if you get more for your buck. You can go out and buy a real nice Aiwa stereo with all the bells and whistles but it won't sound anything like a Denon. I do personally think buying the Mercedes in question is a waste of money but there is a middle ground of price and quality. We are talking about two totally different ends of the spectrum comparing Hyundai junk with Mercedes, even if it is the under-powered and cheapest Mercedes. I am willing to place a wager on the car that will last the longest. Safety wasn't part of the discussion either....

Also one thing not considered in this free maintenance is the inconvenience factor. I just finished picking up the VW we own from its free 10K oil change and they didn't finish it in the same day. They had the car for more than 24hrs for an oil change! I would almost not want the free maintenance if I knew it was going to be this inconvenient. They only provided shuttle service for 10 mile radius and the workplace is about 20 so this wasn't of use to me either. The maintenance that is "free" is on the car dealer's schedule and let me tell you; when there is no money involved, they aren't in a hurry to finish your "free" maintenance.

Originally posted by mjgc0

Also one thing not considered in this free maintenance is the inconvenience factor.



And Mazda and Infiniti, which don't provide "free" maintenance *do* provide loaner cars while your car is being serviced.

We did get the loaner car free for the 5K maintenance but it wasn't given for the 10K. Do they offer the free loaner for the WHOLE free maintenance period? It is still an inconvenience unless you live near your dealer and the free loaner car is truly free for the whole free maintenance period. I am not entirely unhappy with VW free maintenance but it is less convenient than me changing the oil or having my regular mechanic do the service during a lunch time. If I had the option to reduce the price of the VW and skip the free maintenance, I would have without a second thought but this is a standard 2.0 4cyl and not a rotary (never owned one) so I can't comment on if the rotaries are likely to need more adjustment/maintenance than others. I suppose others in this forum would know better.

Originally posted by Spoonie


That is how you respond when you are defeated? Or if the conversation doesn't go your way? When I am wrong I accept it. You should do the same. No, I am simply saying that why argue the fact? I might be wrong on the C230 in which case I apologise, but you are here trying to provoking a response that you can argue with, at least in the tone that you've used.

Fact is, MBUSA makes a LOT more money per car than Mazda does per car. Their S classess, E classes, etc give them a huge amount of money with which they can offer free maintenence for the life of a lease or three years.

So I might be wrong but it doesn't matter... I think we need to look at the whole picture here.

Yep. I think the margins on a BMW average at 60%. :eek: Highest in the industry. Free scheduled maintenance for 3 years, though I have mine extended for 4 (major tune up time), as my car is already paid off and I plan to keep it beyond the normal warrantee.

I don't know how much Mazda is making off their cars, but they can't be making very much for the amount of features that they cram in. If you look at a BMW, there are a good amount of standard features, and fair build quality, but really--does better plastic and smarter engineering cost thousands more?

It's like design. All cars have to be designed, but in the end, some end up being more expensive even though the base car is the same. (e.g. PT cruiser and Neon). That little extra money that they spend in design time lets them add a huge extra margin that is pure profit.

Luxury cars are just regular cars built a little better, but they don’t cost a little more, they cost a lot more.

I don't understand why anyone would want to pay for 3 years of maintenance up front when they buy the car. That's really what happens when you get "free" maintenance from the dealer/manufacturer.
First of all, as has already been mentioned they get to get paid up front and earn interest on the extra money you've paid.
Second, they can charge whatever they want and the costs are hidden from you.
Third, what happens if you don't keep the car for 3 years? Even if you plan on keeping it that long, if it gets totalled after a year you've paid for 2 years of service that you can't get back. Fourth, what if you prefer doing the service yourself? Some dealers do provide quality service, but I've dealt with some dealers who I wouldn't let get within 15 feet of my car. Most enthusiasts I know would prefer doing everything themselves. Do you think you'll get full synthetic with the pre-paid (or "free") manufacturers service? I don't think so. How often are the oil changes? I would bet that they're as often as the owners manual says, which on my Miata IIRC is every 5,000 miles under harsh conditions. Even if that's truly all that's necessary, I would rather pay a tiny extra amount to get the oil changed every 3,000 miles. Even if it doesn't protect the engine any better, it gives me some extra piece of mind and it comes in very handy to have full documentation of oil changes more often than recommended when selling a car. Trust me on that one, it pays off in the end if you sell the car.

In other words, I can only see reasons why it's a bad deal for the customer and a good deal for the dealer. Perhaps it's a good marketing gimmic, but for the customer it's a scam as far as I can see.

Where is my thinking wrong?:confused:

Originally posted by Rich
In other words, I can only see reasons why it's a bad deal for the customer and a good deal for the dealer. Perhaps it's a good marketing gimmic, but for the customer it's a scam as far as I can see.

Where is my thinking wrong?:confused:

Well, for higher-end cars, it's a good selling point for most of the public, as its one less thing you have to worry about later. Econmically, I agree that it's not necessarily great for the reasons I mentioned earlier in this thread. It is convenient, however, and most people buying higher-end cars are paying for convenience and comfort, not just performance. It's important to remember that enthusiasts make up only a portion of the sport sedan market, for example, and that joe middle-manager makes up a sizeable portion too. Personally, I'd prefer that if someone's going to offer it, that it be optional so I don't have to pay for it if I don't want.

Unfortunately, with the kid on the way and us already having one small car, I'm probably out of the running for the RX-8. As a result, I've been looking at the Mazda6, VW Passat, Audi A4, Acura TL-S, and the Infiniti G35. Frankly, the A4 is quite appealing, since a loaded 1.8T quattro + with manual transmission is very good for going skiing and for toting a lot of stuff, and it's also a very comfortable car. However, I'm forced to pay for maintenance up front, something that annoys me slightly.

Anyway, food for thought.

-Patrick

Quick breakdown:
1) benefits both manufacturer and consumer.
2) we're still comparing apples to oranges
3) manufacturers are protecting their investments.


Explaination of my convoluted way of thought:

1)
I'm doubting that the "free scheduled maintenance" is free. But odds are, I doubt that they charge you for the full price of the service. So if the manufacturers have a hidden charge of $1000 for this feature, does all the maintenance costs for those 3 years equal the $1000? I might be wrong, but somehow I doubt that. I'm guessing that it would costs the consumer more than that. I'm betting that it's profitable for the manufacturer, AND at the same time, cost saving for the consumer.

2)
As is been pointed out, the margins for the german cars are higher. But then again, compare the prices for their middle entry vehicle. The german cars cost wayyyy more than the mazdas. Heck...we're comparing the cheapest Mercedes to the top line mazdas. Something doesn't seem right there. It's like everyone always comparing the Z to the RX-8, it's not really fair, but it's going to happen.....

3)
I might be totally wrong, but here's another thought as to why the German manufacturers are willing to give "free" maintenance. Isn't there a significantly higher percentage of leasing going on with the german cars? To them, it's like insuring their investments. If I had one with free maintenance, I'd say, why not, it's free. If I had to pay for it, I'd skip as much as I can, because hey, I'm returning it in a few years, so why bother!

Anyways, that's just a few of my opinions on the subject.....

My co-worker mentioned that he had "free" oil changes on his $40,000 US Audit TT.