Pettit Super Charger Owners [Archive] - Page 21

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 03:17 PM

Ran into a minor problem, think I know what happened, need some other (more experienced and knowledgeable) minds to give their opinion:

Took my car out for first time in two month to check it and make sure everything was a 'go' for a nice weekend of driving. Started and idled in garage for 15 min, pulled out, happy, happy, happy, drove two miles up the road, turned around in a parking lot to come home, car stalled. Restarted it, headed home, about a mile down the road the car began to drastically slow and stumble; then there was a enormous explosion under the hood which damned near blew the hood off (no joke). Immediately pushed in the clutch, which stuck on the floor, threw it in neutral, where the shift lever stayed (wouldn't go into another gear), and coasted of the road. Ended my drive with a flatbed tow.

Only other thing to add is that I had disconnected the battery, and the DSC light was on ("slippery road surface", not "DSC OFF").

Let the questions begin.

Kane

04-26-2009, 03:23 PM

What was the underhood damage from the "explosion"?

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 03:30 PM

A couple things, completely blew the boot that connects the blower to UIM. Question is, why?

Kane

04-26-2009, 03:37 PM

Are you injecting WM?

Sounds sorta like a manifold backfire (NOS style) - but I dunno why that would happen unless you had WM maybe...

Can we get pics?

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 03:46 PM

Are you injecting WM?

Sounds sorta like a manifold backfire (NOS style) - but I dunno why that would happen unless you had WM maybe...

Can we get pics?

No w/m yet. Pics will follow, but won't show much information. Not trying to be elusive here, really interested in the thought process a problem like this might elicit in others. I think I know what happened, but I could very well be wrong.

Kane

04-26-2009, 04:01 PM

I dunno man.

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 04:08 PM

Fair enough. Mahalo plenty.

Brettus

04-26-2009, 04:11 PM

well it seems that you got a whole lot of unburt fuel in your UIM - but how ?

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 05:10 PM

well it seems that you got a whole lot of unburt fuel in your UIM - but how ?

Good question; I'm not sure the unburnt fuel was necessarily *only* in the UIM. Next bit of information: I had just installed Pettit's boost-up pulley and 09 injectors. And yes, the injectors were fully seated in the fuel rail, and I checked extensively for leaks before and after I fired it up for the first time after the changeover. I also pulled the room fuse and did the reset procedure for the ECU, during and after which I confirmed that there were no fuel leaks from the rail or the quick connectors. BTW, I think this was doomed to happen whether I changed the injectors or not. Next question, and don't forget the DSC.

Kane

04-26-2009, 05:12 PM

Was your Jet Air hose disconnected?

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 05:20 PM

Good thought; no. Had a checklist of disassembly/assembly. All hoses and connectors were taped and numbered. Ditto injector connectors.

Kane

04-26-2009, 05:25 PM

So what is your thoughts on it?

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 05:29 PM

So what is your thoughts on it?

I'm not sure my thoughts are reliable. I was hoping to get some objective input, so I don't want to lead anyone elses' process too much. I'll add this: 2004 car with stock exhaust. S/C installed 18 mos ago, run about 2000 trouble free and ecstatic miles since then.

Brettus

04-26-2009, 05:45 PM

I think you have to look at the recently installed injectors - calibration is probably way off and they could be dumping fuel

Do you have an AFR guage ?

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 05:50 PM

Kane

04-26-2009, 05:54 PM

Slammed throttle shut on ya.... but still wierd that it was in the mani and not the exhaust.... somehow you got reversion?

Brettus

04-26-2009, 06:00 PM

Again, remember the DSC thought the car was on a slippery surface.

DSC light always comes on when you disconnect the battery - red herring IMO

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 06:03 PM

Slammed throttle shut on ya.... but still wierd that it was in the mani and not the exhaust.... somehow you got reversion?

Clogged cat? I don't think the backfire was due to fuel in the UIM; doesn't make sense. I think it started in the exhaust.

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 06:05 PM

DSC light always comes on when you disconnect the battery - red hearing IMO

Agree. Question: How does DSC limit power?

olddragger

04-26-2009, 06:18 PM

Brettus

04-26-2009, 06:33 PM

Could be wrong but i always thought the dsc limits power by closing the throttle and applying the brakes .....

Still think DSC is a red herring anyways ....

endowdly

04-26-2009, 06:35 PM

This thread and the current discussion is 10 x better than any Agatha Christie who-done-it. I'm following along intently.:yumyum:

Moon Assad

04-26-2009, 07:49 PM

Moon Assad

04-26-2009, 08:02 PM

Just talked to Cam, he said it might be as minor as your clutch exploding. Lets hope.

Moon Assad

04-26-2009, 08:21 PM

I have an EFI Dude; as soon as I can I'll post some graphs, but the lamdas looked good. Something else bothered me, though, and that was the retarded timing, as much as 20 degrees. Again, remember the DSC thought the car was on a slippery surface.

Yeh, I think Cams rite, it was your clutch cooking id imagine, it would explain the DSC and also since it was slipping so bad it probly overheated then blew. I hope to god that its the only problem.

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 09:16 PM

why would the dsc think you were on a slippery surface? If you activate the dsc somehow it will retard timing(it will also pull timing during a fuel starvation situation) to pull power to control the traction. Large injectors+ wrong timing=boom? because fuel buildup then the spark came on? Carburetor engines used to do it all the time--blow back--when the timing got wacko.
Now why was the clutch stuck on the floor? Did you blow the clutch? If you blew it and the car was still in gear--was the pcm reading that the tires where slipping and retard the timing on you?
olddragger

Denny, I may have blown the clutch, but I wasn't doing anything remotely abusive at the time. I was doing 40-45 mph in 3rd gear on neutral throttle. I've never done anything to abuse the clutch; no drags, no racing, no stupid shit. The PCM was on from when I went left the garage since I had the battery disconnected. Up until the explosion, which was in the intake manifold, there was no problem with the clutch or transmission, car shifted smoothly, clutch was normal. After, the clutch stayed on the floor, I think the explosion damaged the clutch cylinder, and, of course, without ground and tranny speed sync, no wonder I couldn't slide it into gear. The entire episode lasted 10, 15 seconds tops, from OK to No-K. I'll know a little more in a couple days

Why did the DSC think I was on a slippery surface? No clue. The battery was disconnected when I changed the injectors, and when I hooked it back up, I had the DSC light.

BTW, I want to make it clear, this is not a Pettit problem. It's either my bad or a Mazda bad, but I don't see it as being a problem with the S/C system.

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 09:26 PM

Just a thought, you mentioned a clogged cat. Greg had somthing happen to him when his Cat clogged but not as drastic (boost spike and loss of power. Maybe since you have the bigger crank pully on it was intensified to the point of causing more damage and the point of the timming being so far off, you said -20 rite. It might have fired the motor over backwords instantly. It might have caused damage to your tranny, clutch and probly motor also since it wont start up or even go into gear. Dosnt sound good at all.

I don't think the 09 injectors are that big of a mismatch for this setup, especially with the larger pulley. I've beaten myself already thinking I didn't get the injectors in the rail properly, but dammit I triple checked them before, during, and after re-installing the fuel rail, and then rechecked them after I did the ECU room fuse/idle reset, and there were no leaks. None. The car idled perfectly, ran through the gears well, but when I got on the gas in 3rd at 6k, it fell flat on its face, owing, I thought, to the DSC being active. Then I see 20 degrees of timing retard with large TPS values and figure that's the DSC at work; trouble is, at those points, the lamba is stil within ranges, so fuel is still being delivered, but not burned completely. After I realized the DSC or something was holding it back, I didn't try to romp on it any more, just wanted to get a feel for how the car was running. Took a total of three miles for it to grind to a dead halt.

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 09:29 PM

Yeh, I think Cams rite, it was your clutch cooking id imagine, it would explain the DSC and also since it was slipping so bad it probly overheated then blew. I hope to god that its the only problem.

He may be right, I haven't considered the clutch up to this point, but a clutch blowing up makes a different sound than an intake backfire, and doesn't bow the hood up 6 inches. Usually there is a little trail of tinkly parts left behind, and I checked, that wasn't the case either. I'm fairly sure whatever happened happened inside the motor/exhaust. The question is, what.

Rote8

04-26-2009, 09:29 PM

A couple things, completely blew the boot that connects the blower to UIM. Question is, why?

Plugged cat, and a broken Apex seal?
It sounds like fuel was being sprayed and did not go into the engine, then a spark hit the mixture.
Another thought: "Vacuum" tap comes loose, boost pushes air and fuel out (the stumble), then boom.

Are you sure your fuel injectors were wired correctly?

You were not running NOS; were you? :uhh:

zenrx8

04-26-2009, 09:49 PM

Plugged cat, and a broken Apex seal?
It sounds like fuel was being sprayed and did not go into the engine, then a spark hit the mixture.
Another thought: "Vacuum" tap comes loose, boost pushes air and fuel out (the stumble), then boom.

Are you sure your fuel injectors were wired correctly?

You were not running NOS; were you? :uhh:

First, No NOS.

Second, absolutely positive the injectors were wired correctly; I numbered the connectors before I pulled the injectors from the rail, even numbered the rail to correspond. I suppose it is possible that the vaccuum tap cam loose, I honestly doubt it. Also, I'm confused about that one; if the tap cam loose, how did fuel come out? The tap is on the inner aspect of the UIM, the injectors deliver fuel below the LIM; if the tap did come loose, the car would run like crap for sure as it leaned out, but I didn't get a CEL before the big bang. Apex seals, can't honestly rule that out yet, but the car only has 24.500 miles.

I'm pretty sure the fuel went into the engine; it's what happened after that I'm trying to verify. Next questions?

endowdly

04-26-2009, 09:51 PM

You were not running NOS; were you? :uhh:

NOS isn't flammable. So unless the detonation was from over pressure in the rotor housings (which doesn't seem like it was) I don't think it was NOS--as in a leak of NOS out of the system or what not.

It could have accelerated a small fuel leak if they were both present in the intake... but I don't know how they would both end up there? :scratchhe

Rote8

04-26-2009, 10:09 PM

First, No NOS.

Second, absolutely positive the injectors were wired correctly; I numbered the connectors before I pulled the injectors from the rail, even numbered the rail to correspond. I suppose it is possible that the vacuum tap cam loose, I honestly doubt it. Also, I'm confused about that one; if the tap cam loose, how did fuel come out?

Boost pressure can push out of a vacuum tap, if that tap is below the injectors, like the two on the passengers side of the lower intake down low, or the one on the bottom of the lower intake that connects via a short vacuum hose, below those two visible ones.....

The tap is on the inner aspect of the UIM, the injectors deliver fuel below the LIM; if the tap did come loose, the car would run like crap for sure as it leaned out, but I didn't get a CEL before the big bang. Apex seals, can't honestly rule that out yet, but the car only has 24.500 miles.

I'm pretty sure the fuel went into the engine; it's what happened after that I'm trying to verify. Next questions?

Any leak from the lower intake (below the injectors) could leak air and fuel under boost.

OTOH: Cam is usually right on anything Mazda.

Rotr8

04-26-2009, 10:24 PM

zenrx8

04-27-2009, 06:29 AM

I think Denny's ideas sound resonable,,,
And of course Moon mentioned what happened to me but that was at 120mph and I hear a big bang, a huge plum of smoke shoot out the exhaust and a boost spike of 15psi (again 5th gear moderate pull at 120mph), but it sounds like you were just cruisin at a safe speed,,,,
You said the car was sitting for a while????
I wonder if that had anything to do with it along the theories of fuel build up,,,,

Were you in between shifts? what rpms were you at?...

Denny is thinking along the same lines as I have been; spent all weekend watching Rolex Series race at VIR watching the '8s when that process occurred to me. The most obvious answer is that I screwed something up, but the fact that I was so careful about make certain everything was installed properly kept nagging at me, and if I hadn't seated an injector in a rail properly, I should have noticed or smelled it when I idled the car. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

The car had been sitting about 2 months - usual bad winter weather. I wasn't between shifts, was cruising steady throttle about 40 mph, maybe 3K rpm.. Yes, I agree a LIM leak would allow fuel to leak out, it's the only other place, funny it would choose to show up now, who know. The LIM has never been off.

I don't know if the car having sat for a while had much to do with any fuel build up. After I installed the injectors, I did an ECU reset by letting the car sit and idle until up to operating temp, then holding at 2K, 3K, and 4K rpm for 10 seconds each, the shut it down. It idled smoothly as always during the reset, and I checked for leaks, loose hoses. There were no leaks, no smell of raw gas, either in the engine bay or from the exhaust. I did the reset in the garage, so I got a goo sniff:eyetwitch.

Here's one other issue: recently there had been some discussion about the potential dangers of a clogged cat. I had begun to suspect that my stock cat might be going; the car didn't seem to have quite the punch I remembered when the S/C was first installed, but it didn't throw any codes so I kind of back burnered the thought. So now I leave with new injectors and a larger pulley and questionable cat; throw in 20 degrees of ignition retard thanks to the DSC and there's the potential for a lot of unburnt fuel to make it to the cat; I think that's why the car stalled when I turned around in a parking lot; the cat was starting to get hot and plugged. Just a little farther down the road and the cat loses a piece and obstructs; raw fuel ignites and blows back; that with the blower pushing, albeit at very low boost, and bang, there goes the boot connecting the blower and the UIM. Beyond that, I'm not sure. Hell, not even sure about that. The only thing I do know for certain is that the injectors were in tight and there were no fuel leaks when I left home, but 3 miles later, bam.

Any further diagnosis will have to wait 'til Moon makes it up here; she'll sit until then. And yeah, I plan on calling Cam too, and let me say again, this problem is either my fault or a problem with my car, not with any Pettit gear.

Rotr8

04-27-2009, 07:25 AM

I think more consideration needs to paid attention to the ABS,,, Especially since you said it went AWALL just before and after the incident....
WE all had to cut the outer bracket of the ABS system,,,, and this is really way out in left field but what if something jarred loose an electrical connection, this partnering with re routing the fuel lines, I wonder if somehow you had open current which somehow ignited a fuel line,,,
Way out in left field but who knows....

marsredr100

04-27-2009, 07:36 AM

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/doorcombo/Old_computer.jpg

Bittersweet news Zen,

I ran all written data last night on my state-of-the-art computer and here is your car diagnosis. You have a clogged catalytic converter and a broken clutch disk. Exhaust gases where not able to escape at optimum “speed/flow” hence stalling/catastrophically reducing the engine revolutions per minute RPM while the car was in gear. Therefore, luckily your clutch disk became the weakest link between the flywheel and the drive train. BTW, I’m just writing exactly what the computer monitor says since my Polaroid camera does not have the capability to focus past 1X. :eyetwitch

endowdly

04-27-2009, 07:39 AM

The one thing I would like to add deals with combustion. You said there was an explosion? A large explosion. That means that either you had a lot of back pressure or a lot of fuel ignite.

If the cause of the boom was a fuel leak igniting, the only thing that would cause an explosion like that is vapor--not liquid--gasoline. So the fuel must have been able to vaporize or pool in one spot before it could have been combusted. I think it would take either a fairly large amount of vapor to explode in the manner you described, or a very small amount in a highly pressurized location.

I think it rules out fuel lines.

endowdly

04-27-2009, 07:42 AM

^^

...that seems to fit to me.

JMKuco

04-27-2009, 08:52 AM

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/doorcombo/Old_computer.jpg

:worship:

california style

04-27-2009, 09:45 AM

the good thing is you are ok, zen! Hope you get to the root of it....

Bastage

04-27-2009, 10:23 AM

I had an incident with a clogged cat this past summer, but all my car would do is intermittently stumble/stall for no reason that was apparent at the time. After a week of this, I decided to take off the cat pipe. Immediately after removing the cat pipe I could hear that something was loose inside.

Looking inside of it, I noticed a huge chunk of catalyst material was loose and was just the correct diameter to prevent it from moving out of the end of the pipe. I immediately took a long screwdriver and hammer to it, and have not experienced the problem since.

My suggestion is that you jack the car up and take off the mid-pipe and see what you have.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 03:02 PM

Well, I failed to mention the the 09s come with only 1 bracket holding the ABS unit.

zenrx8

04-27-2009, 03:12 PM

zenrx8

04-27-2009, 03:14 PM

zenrx8

04-27-2009, 03:15 PM

Brettus

04-27-2009, 03:17 PM

The only time a clutch explodes is under excessive load - so I'm picking it is nothing to do with the clutch and everything to do with the recently installed injectors ........................

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 03:30 PM

Ill put my money on the CAT cause it blew the coupler from the intake to the I/C. I bet theres a cork in the CAT.

Brettus

04-27-2009, 03:42 PM

/\ how does a backfire in the exhaust find its way into the UIM ?

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 04:09 PM

Ill put my money on the CAT cause it blew the coupler from the intake to the I/C. I bet theres a cork in the CAT.

If you meant exactly what you wrote, you, sir, are a moron.

If you are trying to make a funny, you failed at that as well.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 04:13 PM

/\ how does a backfire in the exhaust find its way into the UIM ?

If its got no outlet because the CAT is clogged it will blow a flame back through the engine across the overlap when both ports are open using whats open on the intake side as the exaust. If the engine intake cant suck the fuel into the engine it will reflux into the intake (BOOM) the ignition of fuel will find the path of least resistance wich was the coupler.

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 04:14 PM

If its got no outlet because the CAT is clogged it will blow a flame back through the engine across the overlap when both ports are open using whats open on the intake side as the exaust. If the engine intake cant suck the fuel into the engine it will reflux into the intake (BOOM) the ignition of fuel will find the path of least resistance wich was the coupler.

Um, no

There is no overlap. Try again.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 04:16 PM

Ok, what do you think happened.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 04:23 PM

Set up an RX8 rotor in a housing you will see that when the rotor is at bottom dead center there is very little but some overlap. Dont try starting a shit storm, im trying to explain what happened, if you have an opinion why not state it.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 04:33 PM

If you look into the history of this thread you will see that when Greg clogged his CAT it spiked the boost to I think he said 15 or 16 psi. If you add fuel into that issue and it ignited some how the same thing would have happened.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 04:39 PM

Another possibility is that since the exhaust wasn't totally pushed out of the engine it carried to the intake port causing it to ignite.

joff

04-27-2009, 04:46 PM

Um, no

There is no overlap. Try again.

Oh no, not this again.

Moon is right.

There is a clearance volume thats carried over from exhaust to intake even if the port timing does not overlap. If the cat is clogged (effectively a motor with no exhaust port) -- the entire exploded charge will re-compress into the clearance volume and spit back out the intake as soon as the intake port opens.

Rote8

04-27-2009, 04:52 PM

I got a thought:
Something in the lower intake, intake port, or the rotor itself, got hot.
(could be from a plugged cat, or no oil injection, or something that had fallen in the lower intake)
With our fine factory temperature gauge, we would probably not know this.

When whatever it was finally reached the ignition temperature of the air fuel mix, BOOM.

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 05:00 PM

That was quite an example of post count increasing there moon.

This speculation is only minimally supported by the example of "overlap" and completely unsupported by any previous example of a clogged cat. Look them up. A clogged cat generally just results in stumbling and loss of power. The SC side of the story throws an interesting, but ultimately misdirecting, aspect into the mix. Besides, what you are describing would have to happen instantaneously between exhaust cycles, otherwise it would have happened on the previous cycle, which leads to the same argument ad nauseum, thus invalidating it.

This certainly sounds like a classic example of a backfire. A real backfire and not what is typically called such (post ignition)

You dont need the cat to be clogged for this. Just fuel, air and a preignition ignition source.

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 05:01 PM

Bastage

04-27-2009, 05:05 PM

Um, no

There is no overlap. Try again.

Jeff, is that you? :scratchhe

joff

04-27-2009, 05:16 PM

Renesis specs have exhaust port closing 3 degrees BTDC and intake port opening 3 degrees ATDC. Theres 6 degrees there with no ports open there. (no overlap)

Reference: http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Content/Site301/SmartProducts/RotaryEnginesTe_00000001985.pdf

13B-REW (FD RX7 engine) and other peripheral port rotarys on the other hand do have significant overlap. Unless its been ported or changed recently, I can't understand how any RX8 motors could have overlap.

Brettus

04-27-2009, 05:36 PM

Jeff, is that you? :scratchhe

hah - good spotting Bastage :lol:

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 05:50 PM

Jeff, is that you? :scratchhe

No, but I appretiate the commentary.

I admit I was feeling like stirring the pot and I apologize.

marsredr100

04-27-2009, 06:29 PM

No, but I appretiate the commentary.

I admit I was feeling like stirring the pot and I apologize.

Apology accepted but just remember to…

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm205/doorcombo/respect_my_authority.jpg

:eyetwitch

joff

04-27-2009, 06:42 PM

You dont need the cat to be clogged for this. Just fuel, air and a preignition ignition source.

By preignition source you mean something like hotter, higher pressure carry-over gas in the clearance volume from a clogged cat? I don't think a clogged cat is as ridiculous a reason for this as you think it is. Moon and Cam may not read forums as much as you but do have a lot of relevant experience.

This is where a turbo is nice: with potentially clogged cat there, backpressure will rise, turbine looses power to generate boost and you know something's wrong in advance. If you get preignition while the intake port is open, the pressure goes backward through all sorts of IC/tubing volume back through a compressor that will gladly flow air backwards.

On a NA car, there is also a path from intake ports back to atmosphere through the throttle. Clogged cat probably just bogs things down there as NA power is very sensitive to backpressure. It also takes a very significant preignition to cause any intake tract damage due to 1) being NA, and 2) having an opened throttle body to atmosphere.

On a positive displacement SC, pressure builds between blower and intake and (IIRC) bypass valve is a type that seats harder as pressure rises -- so no relief there. This would seem to make things worse. Positive displace SC will not flow air backwards as it cannot stall due to being belt-driven. Manifold preignition pressure can rise more catastrophically here. Plus, we have less intake volume and its all cast aluminum!

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 07:31 PM

If you look closly you can see the ports still open. Yes, im proving to you that what you said is WRONG, buy the way you ow me 50 miles worth of gas) that the ports do overlap. I have the gear inplace in the rotor so also add a few thousants (that was probly miss spelled but I dont give a dam). In these pictures you can see a very slight overlap. And if you dont think a flame can pass over that area if the exaust is plugged you need to leave these cars to the pros.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 07:33 PM

Ow, almost forgot here they are. there is also a pic of a 09 motor.

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 07:51 PM

I think you could show overlap by just placing a rotor on a side iron. Oh, look...

carbonRX8

04-27-2009, 08:10 PM

By preignition source you mean something like hotter, higher pressure carry-over gas in the clearance volume from a clogged cat? No. How did all that high pressure hot charge get in there if the cat was clogged? If the cat was clogged enough that you were not getting any flow, how did you get any flow in the first place? It is chicken and egg and therefore cant be the explaination. And besides, it is not clogged at the manifold, there is lots of volume to expand into and cool. It would have to be absolutely completely clogged at the manifold. So far, that hasn't happened.

This is where a turbo is nice: with potentially clogged cat there, backpressure will rise, turbine looses power to generate boost and you know something's wrong in advance. Ok If you get preignition while the intake port is open, the pressure goes backward through all sorts of IC/tubing volume back through a compressor that will gladly flow air backwards. While I agree that the situation is different, this never happens. Ever.

On a positive displacement SC, pressure builds between blower and intake and (IIRC) bypass valve is a type that seats harder as pressure rises -- so no relief there. This would seem to make things worse. Positive displace SC will not flow air backwards as it cannot stall due to being belt-driven. Manifold preignition pressure can rise more catastrophically here. Plus, we have less intake volume and its all cast aluminum!

Again, while you do a fine job of highlighting one of the downsides of a clutch-less belt-driven SC, this does not require backflow of exhaust gas to cause a backfire. What is more likely is some higher temps leading to some ignition source in the intake. If that is indeed what happened.

Moon Assad

04-27-2009, 08:31 PM

How to experiment with combustion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpAJOPzKK-M

joff

04-27-2009, 09:30 PM

No. How did all that high pressure hot charge get in there if the cat was clogged? If the cat was clogged enough that you were not getting any flow, how did you get any flow in the first place? It is chicken and egg and therefore cant be the explaination. And besides, it is not clogged at the manifold, there is lots of volume to expand into and cool. It would have to be absolutely completely clogged at the manifold. So far, that hasn't happened.

Ok, whats the exhaust gas temp of a FI rotary at WOT? 1400C a few inches from the manifold maybe? How about if the tuning is off -- perhaps severely retarded by 20degs due to DSC hiccup? Probably even hotter than 1400C then.

Okay, now -- with 1400C measured in the manifold, how about the exhaust gas inside the clearance volume of the rotor tub? Double hotter.

Now, consider that the autoignition point of gasoline is 280C.

What happens when the intake port opens and vaporized fuel starts mixing with remnant >1400C exhaust gases? Surprisingly enough, most of the time nothing catastrophic happens. You might wonder how a motor can avoid autoignition at all -- in reality its a very delicate system -- you depend on a combination of the motor running at an ice-cold (in comparison) 100C and the latent heat of fuel vaporization to keep away preignition each and every cycle. You do not need a 100% clogged cat to upset things -- in reality it doesn't take much. Just running the motor a measly 15C hotter (measly in comparison to combustion temps) can cause autoignition and detonation.

Any rise in backpressure in the exhaust gives rise to more intake charge heating. At some point, you pass the safe threshold and pre-ignite or detonate.

Ok While I agree that the situation is different, this never happens. Ever.

Please tell us the credentials you have and corpus of testing you've done to speak with such authority without needing explain. I hope its nothing along the lines of all the forum posting and reading on the interwebs you do.

Rotr8

04-27-2009, 09:47 PM

Before I went FI, and the reason I ended up getting the RP supercat, my factory cat actually blew up, and my car caught on fire, at the time I was cruising around at about 35mph, came to a stop didnt have any Halon or anything,, Anyway the fire went out on its own after melting the 02 sensor cableand half of the goo holding the heat shield on the car, and shorting the whole sensor. Went to the shop(dealer), core temp was 1680 couldnt touch the damn thing for a whole day, amber red for about 4 hrs...
Anyway sitting there wonder WTF to do the flames went all the way up to the engine bay and at about the hieght of the LIM,,,
What about an electrical fire, that might explain the wierd DSC readings too... Just a feask of nature or like round here those damn squirrels that like to crawl into engine bays and like to chew on the fire blanket, and other wires....

olddragger

04-27-2009, 10:08 PM

i cant believe you guys have never seen a s.c blow at the strip.
? is why did it happen? Right?
Seems to me a sudden clogging of the cat at partial throttle --he was going slow remember--would have been symptomatic before the blow? Clogged cat---yep I can understand that. But other stuff could have happened too---and this pcm WILL pull timing--at least with a fuel starvation episode it will--have it on the efi data logger.
OD

Rote8

04-27-2009, 10:17 PM

<Eddie Murphy voice>
It was the old banana in the tail pipe trick. (http://www.videosift.com/video/Beverly-Hills-Cop-Banana-in-the-Tailpipe-Scene)

zenrx8

04-28-2009, 06:26 AM

<Eddie Murphy voice>
It was the old banana in the tail pipe trick. (http://www.videosift.com/video/Beverly-Hills-Cop-Banana-in-the-Tailpipe-Scene)

Funny you should mention that.

I had the window open and there was a very, very strong odor of daiquiris in the air...

The question I now have to ask myself is: exactly how did you know that? I'll be needing to see your grocery receipts for the last two weeks, please;)

endowdly

04-28-2009, 06:29 AM

I thought daiquiris were made with strawberry?

california style

04-28-2009, 06:58 AM

not banana daiquiris

carbonRX8

04-28-2009, 07:17 AM

I just gotta ask. When you hooked up the battery, did you turn the wheel lock-to-lock to recal the sps?

The DSC light can come on for a lot of reasons. That is the most common one, but there are others completely unrelated to anything in the driveline. For instance, unhooking the baro sensor will call up a dsc error.

endowdly

04-28-2009, 07:23 AM

not banana daiquiris

:Eyecrazy:

I didn't now those existed. Should've figured though. Doh.

olddragger

04-28-2009, 11:09 AM

Phil's 8

04-28-2009, 11:27 AM

I can not offer anything not already suggested but am going to be very interested in the out come so be sure and post what is found. I don't have a cat so I am hoping it is a cat related problem.

joff

04-28-2009, 11:58 AM

The DSC light can come on for a lot of reasons. That is the most common one, but there are others completely unrelated to anything in the driveline. For instance, unhooking the baro sensor will call up a dsc error.

Um, no.

Try again.

DSC does not have anything to do with baro. I've disconnected my baro sensor before -- all I got was a CEL.

What, do you hypothesize, has the BARO sensor to do with DSC? (This should be interesting...)

Rotr8

04-28-2009, 12:22 PM

man just like good ole times in this thread,,,
Good Stuff...

Moon Assad

04-28-2009, 01:54 PM

you know come to think of it he may not have even been in a "boost" mode?
light cruise at low rpm/load?
I think the dsc was on but I seem too remember that the car was driven--turned off and restarted so that probably reset the pcm/dsc.
OD

Keep in mind when the intake flashed the buypass valve would have slamed shut raising the boost preasure even higher then the energy generated buy the flame. It was mentioned before that with a belt driven supercharger it wouldnt have had any place to go but out the coupler.

Charles R. Hill

04-28-2009, 02:14 PM

Phil's 8

04-28-2009, 02:31 PM

man just like good ole times in this thread,,,
Good Stuff...
You know, as bad as some were I kinda miss them also. Lets hope this starts a little interaction. I learned more during the disagreements than in the quiet times.

JMKuco

04-28-2009, 04:29 PM

Hi,

just finishing soon my pettit install !!

what kind of fluid do I put in the intercooler ???

thanks :)

Phil's 8

04-28-2009, 04:36 PM

man just like good ole times in this thread,,,
Good Stuff...

Hi,

just finishing soon my pettit install !!

what kind of fluid do I put in the intercooler ???

thanks :)
Water with a bottle of water weter is what I used. You are going to town on the install - how about some pics.

endowdly

04-28-2009, 04:37 PM

I'm learning from all of the discussion too. I've been through this thread a lot getting ready for the eventual Pettit SC I will be installing hopefully this fall.

endowdly

04-28-2009, 04:39 PM

Water with a bottle of water weter is what I used. You are going to town on the install - how about some pics.

I read Water Weter does nothing special. I read some engineering reports on it and it does nothing to help cooling. It's a gimick. I have to skiddadle right now, but when I get back tonight I'll try to dig up the paper.

joff

04-28-2009, 05:01 PM

I think he meant the MAF sensor.
I bet you're right, cause, they're like so similar and stuff. I mean, well, they're both colored black and all, how can Mazda expect people to know the difference. :lol:

Just be careful like carbonRX8 and don't forget to keep that there BARO sensor connected, cause your stuff blows up if you don't. You need super duper clutched pulley supercharger to survive the malfunction you get from misbehaving BARO sensors, yo. :eyetwitch

I read Water Weter does nothing special. I read some engineering reports on it and it does nothing to help cooling. It's a gimick. I have to skiddadle right now, but when I get back tonight I'll try to dig up the paper

Water Wetter is mostly a fancy soap that keeps vapor bubbles small when coolant systems are operated near their boiling points. It will do about nothing beneficial on a small IC setup where temperatures are much below boiling. The lube and anti-corrosion additives may be of benefit though. I personally run straight distilled water with Prestone anti-corrosion additive.

Charles R. Hill

04-28-2009, 05:10 PM

Is there sarcasm in your post, Jesse?

shazy

04-28-2009, 05:20 PM

Is there sarcasm in your post, Jesse?

Holy crap, what happened to all your posts. 2 days ago I saw you at 43xx posts, now you are down to a measly 3700 posts...

Charles R. Hill

04-28-2009, 05:27 PM

If I had my way it would be lower than that.

Let's get back on-topic/point, shall we? We have an engine to diagnose.

rotarenvy

04-28-2009, 05:32 PM

I don't think the 09 injectors are that big of a mismatch for this setup, especially with the larger pulley. I've beaten myself already thinking I didn't get the injectors in the rail properly, but dammit I triple checked them before, during, and after re-installing the fuel rail, and then rechecked them after I did the ECU room fuse/idle reset, and there were no leaks. None. The car idled perfectly, ran through the gears well, but when I got on the gas in 3rd at 6k, it fell flat on its face, owing, I thought, to the DSC being active. Then I see 20 degrees of timing retard with large TPS values and figure that's the DSC at work; trouble is, at those points, the lamba is stil within ranges, so fuel is still being delivered, but not burned completely. After I realized the DSC or something was holding it back, I didn't try to romp on it any more, just wanted to get a feel for how the car was running. Took a total of three miles for it to grind to a dead halt.

what happens if the APV doesn't open due to carbon or some other malfunction? you would be injecting into the runners of a closed or semi closed port. carbon could be glowing near the port opening causing ignition...

Moon Assad

04-28-2009, 05:43 PM

I cant say it enough CATS are bad, sorry Greg, I didnt mean kittys but it is a deffinat heat restriction causing uneeded stresses on your motor, more stress then I care to list. The less stuff you need to worrie about the better. Of corse im not telling you to modify any of your emissions stuff, you shouldnt buy law.

Brettus

04-28-2009, 05:43 PM

what happens if the APV doesn't open due to carbon or some other malfunction? you would be injecting into the runners of a closed or semi closed port. carbon could be glowing near the port opening causing ignition...

no injectors on those ports ......

endowdly

04-28-2009, 07:06 PM

!!! The Truth About WaterWetter (R) !!!

So I mentioned earlier I would find the engineering paper on why WaterWetter by Red Line Oil is bad to use. I can't find it. Instead I'll substitute a couple of reviews and a really good chemical analysis that basically outlines the fact that WaterWetter causes build up in silicone and plastic tubing and corrodes metal, which was in the engineering evaluation. That paper also did a thermal evaluation on the product and declared it did increase water's thermal capacity and helped carry away heat from the engine. But it was a marginal (almost negligible) improvement. Where WatterWetter supposedly shines, according to that paper, is it helps reduce hot spots on cylinder heads. Well... we don't have those things in our car, and I would think thermal dissipation in a rotary engine is much more even due to the fluid movement of the combustion chamber. So the gains are negligible and the product has potential to corrode parts, seals, housings, and gunk up tubes. Hm. Pick your poison, I guess.

Links
Water Wetter Review (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/redline-waterwetter%C2%AE-review/)
Chemical Analysis of WaterWetter (http://www.wizdforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2338)

Rote8

04-28-2009, 07:12 PM

Hi,

just finishing soon my pettit install !!
what kind of fluid do I put in the intercooler ???
thanks :)

If there is any chance of a freeze, use some anti-freeze with that water.
If there is no chance of a freeze, go with distilled water and some Redline water wetter.

Moon Assad

04-28-2009, 07:31 PM

Thats why I recomend engine ice.

http://www.engineice.cc/

Spend the extra few bucks, it make it well worth the corrosion inhibeters that it contains.

olddragger

04-28-2009, 08:16 PM

Moon Assad

04-28-2009, 08:49 PM

Just imagine when you pull an engine appart and look in the water jacket, usaully you find some corroded spots. Ive pulled 2 engines appart that have run the stuff and you never see anything but a brand new looking water jacket, the gaskets look new also and thats on the jetski motor wich was run in salt water most of its life, what killed that motor was getting stuck in sand and continuing to run it to get it off the sand bar. The motor had around 70 hours (2 seasons) on it. If you ever get a chance stick your finger in some and you will find it very slick, that id say is a seal saver also. Man youd think im a salesman for the company but im not. I just reccomend it. I run it in everything I own from jetski to quad, I ran it in my 8 and plan on changing my 09 over to it when I get the time and add the coolers.

Phil's 8

04-28-2009, 09:56 PM

Well at least no one knocked the actual distilled water. I use the additave for the lubracating properties but what the hell plain distilled water will work. I still want to see the pics of the install.

endowdly

04-29-2009, 12:13 AM

on a non pressurized system water wetter will foam like a drunk epileptic. Use DEI --no foaming and it turn the water a pretty purple.
Rotary's without heat spots? I would love to have one of those. SMILE
stand corrected on the lack of boost theory--thx Moon.
It will be interesting--wish we had vavlves then this ? would be easy to answer. Its the low rpm low speed thing that gets me.
OD

I honestly don't know much about the thermal dissipation of the rotary. I was just making an educated assumption based on the fact that combustion isn't occuring on the same rotor face continuously in the same chamber... if that made sense. Basically the three rotor faces will share combustion in the same chamber per cycle where as one piston head will take all combustion pressures and heat in the same cylinder per cycle, I figured the lapse will allow more even cooling. But thanks for clearing that up, dragger.

Everything I read on WaterWetter just leads me to believe it's evil stuff. I think I'll post that post as a thread somewhere just so everyone else is aware.

Now, this Engine Ice stuff, I've never heard of that. I saw it in FF4 but I thought it was some fictional brand. How's it work?

Oh! And we got a little side tracked on the Engine diagnosis, didn't we? Any more ideas?

joff

04-29-2009, 01:39 AM

I got an itch to build something out of fiberglass recently and built a IC reservoir that goes inside the front bumper. Was getting frustrated with pump lossage of prime so wanted pump mounted lower. Other nice side effects is increased space, reservoir out of hot engine bay, larger capacity, and partially plugging up the recirculation swirl oldragger says might develop with the RB Revi Ram air duct.

138015138016138018138019

joff

04-29-2009, 01:43 AM

Also ended up brazing a couple tees out of copper tubing to replace the stock plastic ones.

Mounted pump right below bumper bar where its nice and cool.

138021138022138023138024

Easy_E1

04-29-2009, 02:12 AM

That looks nice. You should market them.

california style

04-29-2009, 05:05 AM

looks very cool (hoho). How do you tell if its full or not tho!

At least our current one you can see the coolant levels and wether the pump is running or not, from the coolant churn....

Rotr8

04-29-2009, 07:43 AM

Wow Joff, thats really sweet put some miles on it and let us know what your result are,, Im definately interested...

JMKuco

04-29-2009, 08:25 AM

Phil's 8

04-29-2009, 08:49 AM

looks very cool (hoho). How do you tell if its full or not tho!

At least our current one you can see the coolant levels and wether the pump is running or not, from the coolant churn....
Mine is no longer visible to see if the pump is running and I can only see a shadow of the level (heat stress). I am awaiting the delivery of a Moroso tank like ODs.

Joff, your tank looks nice. I considered making my own but decided not to (too lazy). I like your idea of a new location.

joff

04-29-2009, 11:38 AM

Jiff, your tank looks nice. I considered making my own but decided not to (too lazy). I like your idea of a new location.

Thanks.

If I had to do it again, I wouldn't have built it out of fiberglass. A much simpler reservoir would have been to take some 3" PVC tubing, cap them, put some barb fittings in and mount it across the bumper bar. That'd give plenty of volume too. There's really no need to do what I did by molding the reservoir to the profile of the area, but I kind of wanted to an excuse to experiment with fiberglass.

Rotr8

04-29-2009, 11:43 AM

Thats a great idea,, that will be my next cooling mod,, I did take delvery of Cams new secondary rads Friday, I just didnt want to post pics til all theories with Zens car had been exhausted, Ill post them tonite...

Moon Assad

04-29-2009, 01:19 PM

OK, some picts.

but I am kind of lost with the pdf file, I think their is two version of the kit...
let me explain :

On the page 28, it is said to cut the air temp sensor wires and to connect them to the new manifold air temp sensor…what sensor ?
I looked for it a long long time and I think it is not for my kit as my air filter connector is not the same then on the pdf file … mine has a place to plug the normal sensor… :banghead:
can you please confirm that I do not have to cut anything ??

by the way, what should I do with the purge control vavle ?? I did not see where it is plugged next ?

thank you :spank:

That should have been removed since the Flash, ignor the cutting of the wirers from the MAF sensor plug. As for the purge control valve it should hook to the bottom back 1/4 hose of the blower (intake side). Run the other output of the purge valve to the what seems like the fuel return but vents the gas tank. Its not critical wich hose goes were on the purge control valve.

olddragger

04-29-2009, 06:37 PM

endow--true but doent forget that we carry a flame front for 270 degrees versus 90 on a recip. rotary runs hotter (including rotary faces) than a recip. There are variations.
OD

olddragger

04-29-2009, 06:47 PM

that is a cool tank man--really nice work. Really nice. talented guy that likes to tinker!
Now what keeps the tank from loosing prime is that the return fitting area INSIDE the tank must be submerged. Otherwise at some point you can loose prime. Just run a tube in there so the return flow is submerged. Phil the Moroso tank has that. The Moroso tank holds more that 3.5 qts. How about almost 6 qts!! No kidding. It does keep temps down a little longer. it also has bigger hose fittings.
OD

california style

04-29-2009, 08:05 PM

what's this moroso tank? Pics?

Rotr8

04-29-2009, 08:20 PM

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/6804/radiator2200161.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

Rotr8

04-29-2009, 08:28 PM

And while we're on the subject of cooling,,,
here are pics of the secondary rads that Cam will be making an initial batch of ten and further more upon interests,,,,
Cam has been running this setup on his car for the last 8 months or so and is satisfied to the point to bring it to the public,,,

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/5607/cimg1402.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/2494/cimg1403.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/8229/cimg1404.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/2900/cimg1405.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/3042/cimg1406.jpg (http://www.imagehosting.com/)

olddragger

04-29-2009, 08:35 PM

is that trick or what? Yall need these--keeps the temps well under control.
OD

california style

04-30-2009, 04:15 AM

That moroso tank is cool. Is it a standard part you can get?

Phil's 8

04-30-2009, 07:30 AM

That moroso tank is cool. Is it a standard part you can get?
Yup, available thru BHR or from Summit Racing. I got mine from BHR he was a little less expensive than Summit. Since my radiator overflow reservoir is also deteriorating I ordered one of those from Moroso (thru BHR).

JMKuco

04-30-2009, 10:36 AM

That should have been removed since the Flash, ignor the cutting of the wirers from the MAF sensor plug. As for the purge control valve it should hook to the bottom back 1/4 hose of the blower (intake side). Run the other output of the purge valve to the what seems like the fuel return but vents the gas tank. Its not critical wich hose goes were on the purge control valve.

OK for the MAF : Done :)

now for the purge control valve, not sure yet I have found every thing...

Can you please look at the following picts and help me finishing my installation.
the pict 01 et 04 are to confirm if it is good or not.
the others are interogation I have about those parts :uhh:

after that I think I am done !!! :lol2:

olddragger

04-30-2009, 11:45 AM

ok --of the top of my head---your brake booster line is correct--pic #1
pic # 2 is the purge? I cant remember about that one
pic 3 the by pass valve has to have a good vacuum source WITHOUT a check valve in the line. Vacuum source also needs to be after the s.c.
pic # 4 the vacuum source off the upper intake manifold is the one I used to supply the vacuum tank --one with all the solonoids on it. I think--i either did that or that was the one I used to supply the by pass valve--will have to look tonight after work--damn old brain.
pic # 5 yep both those pointer spots need vacuum!
Wheres the square shaped vacuum tank you cut off the oem manifold?
Almost done --!!!!
Careful on the 1st crank--turning on all the elctricals at once after they have been down a while can blow a fuse.
OD

Moon Assad

04-30-2009, 01:45 PM

Purge is 1/4 hose from small fitting on the back of the blower. Run through valve then to the return look a like near the fuel supply under the brake booster wich used to run into the intake. The buypass valve sees both boost / Vac, T the check valve in the direction that holds preasure to the Vac tank. The best spot ive found is the fitting under the intake. If you want to have a boost gauge use one of the outer runner hose plugs to tie into.

Rote8

05-01-2009, 07:38 AM

Here is my take, and I hope to have made my response mistake proof:
Picture 1 is perfect, as long as the one way valve is in the correct direction, and allows vacuum to go to the brake booster. (If your brake pedal is hard to press, it's backwards)

Picture 2 -
The Rubber part comes off, a rubber hose from picture 5 connects the metal pipe the hose you have in your hand connects to in picture 2.
This hose you have in your hand connects to the carbon canister vapor purge, as our 8 does not have a normal fuel return.

Picture 3 -
That one way valve goes to the vacuum box you have connects to the bottom frame of picture 4.
Make sure the one way valve is in the correct direction, so only vacuum goes to the vacuum accumulator/distribution pod.

Picture 4 -
Lower frame is the source for purge vacuum, upper frame is the vacuum accumulator/distribution control box.
That may well work, it is a new thought, we currently use it for the source vacuum for picture 5.(the purge valve, which connects to the source of the hose in picture 2.
(Moon, any thoughts on using a tee, to run the vacuum accumulator and the purge from here?)

Picture 5 -
Fuel tank vapor purge valve.

Moon, please check the above for accuracy, and see if there is any way to take it wrong.

olddragger

05-01-2009, 10:47 AM

whats the vertic on Zenrx8's car--anyone heard?
OD

Moon Assad

05-01-2009, 11:54 AM

Negitive ghost rider, the purge valve goes to the back of the blower like ive said 2 times already.

carbonRX8

05-03-2009, 01:29 AM

Um, no.

Try again.

DSC does not have anything to do with baro. I've disconnected my baro sensor before -- all I got was a CEL.

What, do you hypothesize, has the BARO sensor to do with DSC? (This should be interesting...)

STFU dumass. Try some reading lessons. Now you are just stirring shit. Hell, I was trying to help.

I didn't say that DSC had anything to do with the baro sensor. I said that if you disconnect the battery, disconnect the baro sensor and then restart, you will have a DSC error (and a cel). I have done it and would be happy to demonstrate for you. But that has NOTHING to do with this issue. If you bothered to read, I was suggesting, using this as an example, that the dsc error was not involved with the problem at hand. Jebuz.

Do I need to type more slowly so that you can get what I am saying?

Here.

He disconnected the battery.

He reconnected the battery.

THe DSC was lit.

No suggestion from him that he turned lock-to-lock to reset.

Poster complained that the DSC error was involved in the issue.

I asked if the poster bothered to reset the steering angle sensor.

I gave an example of how unrelated issues can result in DSC errors.

You jumped in ass first blathering to start an arguement.

I showed you how much FAIL was in your post.

joff

05-03-2009, 05:18 PM

STFU dumass. Try some reading lessons. Now you are just stirring shit. Hell, I was trying to help.

I didn't say that DSC had anything to do with the baro sensor. I said that if you disconnect the battery, disconnect the baro sensor and then restart, you will have a DSC error (and a cel). I have done it and would be happy to demonstrate for you. But that has NOTHING to do with this issue. If you bothered to read, I was suggesting, using this as an example, that the dsc error was not involved with the problem at hand. Jebuz.

Do I need to type more slowly so that you can get what I am saying?

Here.

He disconnected the battery.

He reconnected the battery.

THe DSC was lit.

No suggestion from him that he turned lock-to-lock to reset.

Poster complained that the DSC error was involved in the issue.

I asked if the poster bothered to reset the steering angle sensor.

I gave an example of how unrelated issues can result in DSC errors.

You jumped in ass first blathering to start an arguement.

I showed you how much FAIL was in your post.

Well, I knew this was going to be interesting! :lol: I know you were typing slower because you thought it would help explain your point, but I shouldn't have to tell you that unlike verbal communication typing slower just makes it take longer to post -- this comment you're responding to is like 3 pages back, you need to type faster not slower dude.

You're right though, I was trying to stir up shit with a certain known shit-stirrer called carbonRX8. Wanted to turn the tables on you, give you a taste of your own medicine, and put you on the defensive after reading these posts of yours:

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2991066&postcount=5075
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2991081&postcount=5077

I even tried to use some of your words and phrases exactly -- minus the blatant insults (to Moon) and adolescent usage of the word "fail".

Oh, and so I can get this straight -- you weren't even actually referring to the MAF sensor, it was the BARO sensor that you think caused your DSC light.

Moon Assad

05-03-2009, 07:38 PM

olddragger

05-04-2009, 12:10 PM

Ok-----back to some interesting stuff.
I had a track weekend this pass w/e. Ambient temps 88--89.
Long write up later--but some quick hints:
1- if you tracking with this kit --do install an oil catch can(like Cam/Moon have already suggested) my little crankcase breather set up worked , but i could have used a catch can for a very small amount of oil.
2- coolant temps during a hard ran 30 min session--no higher than 195F. oil the same AND charge air temps with the water meth never over 125F!!! i had to swap my nozzoles arounf so that the 100 nozzle was on the upper intake side and the 75 was before the s.c.--other wise i would get a lot of condensation on the s/c intake!!!!
3- when you are pushing this much w/m through the system (i was using 1 1/2 gallons a day) take the nozzles out once a day and clean them--gunk can build up.
Max rpm is around 7.5--anything more = slower times, more heat and less gas milage.
4- the 09 pump = NO FUEL STARVATION --even down to 4 clicks from empty!! This is VERY significant!!
5- pre mix to 1 oz a gallon--since i am turning less rpms the omp is not putting out as much--i only used almost a quart of oil the entire w/e.
As far as performance---lets say this--the rx8 is gaining respect on the track hehehe. I pulled and passed a well driven Lotus, a fairly well driven GT 3 Porsche (non ceramic brake type) and a poorly driven track devil set up Mustang (new supercharged version with track exhaust and tires etc--he couldnt pull me on the front enough to get rid of me and i finally got em!! Rest of them 350's, S2's, 911's, M3's (they were tough) etc were no trouble. I could talk all day about it!
olddragger

My hood--the rear lip flex's like a wave between 130-135.

Moon Assad

05-04-2009, 10:42 PM

Nice

Brettus

05-04-2009, 10:57 PM

Rotr8

05-04-2009, 11:14 PM

My hood--the rear lip flex's like a wave between 130-135.

Whats this all about Denny???

Moon Assad

05-04-2009, 11:32 PM

My hood--the rear lip flex's like a wave between 130-135.

Whats this all about Denny???

gotta be areo dynamics.

JMKuco

05-05-2009, 10:47 AM

Just want to say That I finished the installation !! :lol:

I didn't give a run yet because of a poor weather...as the rx8 is not a boat :eyetwitch

but what a feeling ! and the sound is awsome !!!

attached to hoose connection I did (thanks to Cam for the drawing) :)

now I've got to see what can I do to have more whp :spank:

---
But I do not know why, on the idle position (gear) the RPM fall at 500RPM and then the engine stop ! is it because of the PCM ?!:squint:

olddragger

05-05-2009, 11:45 AM

congrats dude!! be careful at first and watch your gauges--you do have a/f gauge --right?
Take it easy at 1st--watch your temps, make sure ALL your hoses are on tight(my 1st test drive allowed me to use a pine tree stick to plug off a vacuum hose that had come off--so i could get home!) ALWAYS bring your oil up to temp before you put a load on it or go past 3 K.
Its going to be a ride and it will take a little time to sort out and learn to drive it as it is now a differant car.!!!

http://picasaweb.google.com/stknowhere/DarksideMay2009#5331774370567404690
after you get your car settled--this is what you can kill on the track when it is driven by the average driver.
no kidding. I did it this past w/e--and it was not slow.

yep at 130+ needs some aero work and you need MUCH stiffer springs to be able to brake like an rx8! below 125 no problem with aero or anything while having just slightly stiffer springs (konis on of course)
I am impressed with the 09 pump---seriously.
I am impressed with the moroso a/w tank--seriously.
I am VERY impressed with a secondary radiator set up--EVERYONE LIVING IN THE SOUTH SHOULD HAVE THIS!!!! NO EXCUSES__YOU HAVE SPENT SERIOUS MONEY AND TIME ON YOUR CAR____DO THIS!!!!
I am impressed with the water meth system---ALSO DO THIS---i had no misfires on the track and everyone else did(RX8's and there were 8 of them there. Course i am only going up to 7.5 K:) I am running the oem coils.
i actually had other drivers coming up to me afterward (that i didnt know saying DAMN--this 8 is fast and its beatiful to watch-- once the chassis settles--it just GOES. These guys were driving Subarus WRX'sSTI's, S2's, M3's and a couple corvettes and porsche's.
8's rep has been bumped up a notch in the SE track community.
They saw my track temps an also said---- DAMN !
if anyone wants to set this car and kit up for the road course--contact me--i have learned a lot.
olddragger
olddragger

JMKuco

05-05-2009, 03:05 PM

Thanks,

so much things to do again :D

I have a porsch club I need to defeat because since the beggining they all want me to buy a porsch !!!

Moon Assad

05-05-2009, 04:43 PM

Well, I just got back from going to the store and back while logging a bone stock 09. At cruse the temps were 185, when I put my foot in it it climbed to 202. Its only 92 here. Im parking my car till I get the coolers on. Its the first time that ive used the logger, nice simple software, the way it should be. I dont like these drastic changes in temps, it should stay under 200 for 1 and the cooling should stay the same, I have a log from another 90 degree day and it climbed to 212. Not good, thats to close to the edge for me. Greg, have you had any chance to instal the coolers or are you waiting for me to get there. If you can id do it if I were you before I get up there. Id highly reccomend it. Its getting hot.

california style

05-05-2009, 07:59 PM

good stuff OD, it sopunds liek you had a blast.

I'm sure I asked you before about the 09 fuel pump, but how easy is it to retrofit??
I think you said you had a thread about it, but I couldn't find it, or I couldn't understand it!

Also how much is the 09 fuel pump?

olddragger

05-05-2009, 10:46 PM

fellow rx8 guys at the track on this same day were hitting 220F with their coolant--some never learn--i have talked and talked and shown hard data. Still no one is interested. I just dont understand it. They will spend money on water pumps and thermostats (which only help a little ) but not this. Doesnt make sense.

the 09 pump basically needs 3 things to install:
1- the connector from the fuel level sending unit etc is a little different--so that has to be fixed--slight rewire--no prob
2- the tank venturi line has to be cut ( the 09 pump uses a bigger line and the connector will not fit) and fitted to the pump with submersible gas hose using just regular hose clamps. remember this line does not have a lot of pressure on it.
3- the entire pump assembly has to be rotated approx 90 degrees when it is installed so the fuel hose that goes to the injectors will line up ok and not have any binding (have to be careful with the venturi and wiring when you do this--its not a prob--just dont do it without watching these 2 things.
Once you get this kit on the car, get it dialed in, and you are comfortable running it without watching gauges a lot--you will be a force that any stock bodied daily driven car needs to watch for. You still wont pull ALL of them on the straight, but they will be surprised when they dont pull you SO much and when the braking and twisters come around--there you are--eating their ass!! Before --that pull away distance was too much to make up.
http://www.somniplex.com/gallery/d/103477-1/IMG_0590.JPG
http://www.somniplex.com/gallery/d/103474-1/IMG_0589.JPG
http://www.somniplex.com/gallery/d/103546-1/IMG_0618.JPG
http://www.somniplex.com/gallery/d/103612-1/IMG_0642.JPG
http://www.somniplex.com/gallery/d/104533-1/IMG_1003.JPG
http://www.somniplex.com/gallery/d/105085-1/IMG_9904.JPG
the last 3 pics kinda shows the ground i made up on this little lotus in less than 1 mile of track and 5 turns.
olddragger

Brettus

05-06-2009, 01:44 AM

Rote8

05-06-2009, 04:46 AM

Just want to say That I finished the installation !! :lol:
~~
---
But I do not know why, on the idle position (gear) the RPM fall at 500RPM and then the engine stop ! is it because of the PCM ?!:squint:

Uh, you DID flash the stock ECU?
The Pettit S/C flash will keep the idle at about 1200 rpm and provides a safe tune to keep from going lean and causing engine damage.
Do not drive or even rev the car hard if you are not tuned (flashed or Int-X) for the supercharger.

california style

05-06-2009, 05:28 AM

OD what wheels / tyres are you running? they look proper fatties!

JMKuco

05-06-2009, 08:28 AM

Uh, you DID flash the stock ECU?
The Pettit S/C flash will keep the idle at about 1200 rpm and provides a safe tune to keep from going lean and causing engine damage.
Do not drive or even rev the car hard if you are not tuned (flashed or Int-X) for the supercharger.

I did the flash before I install the kit.
I give a testdrive yesterday, the car is awsome ! but I think I can get more of it :)

But the engine always stop if RPM is lower then 1000/1500.

So I think I have to do an other flash....

find attached the error code I get everytime it stoped.

here is what I found about that :
P0171 Adaptive Fuel Trim Too Lean (Bank 1)

* Vehicle driven low on fuel or until it ran out of fuel
* One or more injectors restricted or pressure regulator has failed
* Fuel delivery system supplying too much or too little fuel during cruise or idle periods (e.g., faulty fuel pump, or dirty fuel filter)
* Air leaks after the MAF sensor, or air leaks in the PCV system
* Air leaks at the EGR gasket, or at the EGR valve diaphragm
* Exhaust leaks before or near where the front HO2S is mounted
* HO2S is contaminated, deteriorated or it has failed
* Fuel control sensor is out of calibration (i.e., ECT, IAT or MAP)
* Base engine "mechanical" fault affecting one or more cylinders

Engine running in closed loop at cruise speed for 2 minutes, and the PCM detected the A/F ratio remained leaner than the fuel correction limit in memory for 10 seconds during the Fuel System Monitor test.
This code sets in 2 Trip(s).

need advice please :s

Moon Assad

05-06-2009, 11:55 AM

I did the flash before I install the kit.
I give a testdrive yesterday, the car is awsome ! but I think I can get more of it :)

But the engine always stop if RPM is lower then 1000/1500.

So I think I have to do an other flash....

find attached the error code I get everytime it stoped.

here is what I found about that :
P0171 Adaptive Fuel Trim Too Lean (Bank 1)

* Vehicle driven low on fuel or until it ran out of fuel
* One or more injectors restricted or pressure regulator has failed
* Fuel delivery system supplying too much or too little fuel during cruise or idle periods (e.g., faulty fuel pump, or dirty fuel filter)
* Air leaks after the MAF sensor, or air leaks in the PCV system
* Air leaks at the EGR gasket, or at the EGR valve diaphragm
* Exhaust leaks before or near where the front HO2S is mounted
* HO2S is contaminated, deteriorated or it has failed
* Fuel control sensor is out of calibration (i.e., ECT, IAT or MAP)
* Base engine "mechanical" fault affecting one or more cylinders

Engine running in closed loop at cruise speed for 2 minutes, and the PCM detected the A/F ratio remained leaner than the fuel correction limit in memory for 10 seconds during the Fuel System Monitor test.
This code sets in 2 Trip(s).

need advice please :s

Well, stop driving your car. You need to do some trouble shooting, look at your data. Im busy moving so ill point you in the rite direction, there is the ever preasant Cat problem, how many miles on car???cat?? then its off to the fuel pump (Check filter). Check everything you did and dont keep driving your car till you find the problem, you will now if its the problem, also check you OMP line!!!!

olddragger

05-06-2009, 12:30 PM

I am running the 18 inch 9.5s with 275/35 nto1's--cant wait to get back on 17's and a 245 hoosier.

Yea Dude DONT drive the car. cant read your attachment?
too lean means air leak somewhere or a fuel supply problem. check your plugs and see if any difference between the rotors, trouble shoot all intake connections and vacuum lines(loose vacuum line may be causing your idle problem)
my 1st guess would be a vacuum line somewhere---then if they are all ok--then a fuel supply problem.
You are using the Pettit's maf pipe--right?
Get an a/f gauge SOON.
Trouble shoot and dont get discourged --major mods almost never work right on the 1st crank.
olddragger

Rote8

05-06-2009, 01:08 PM

Ok-----back to some interesting stuff.
~
My hood--the rear lip flex's like a wave between 130-135.

You need more voltage to the Flux-Capacitor; it should start at 88 Mph.

:uhh:

olddragger

05-06-2009, 04:14 PM

I am beginning to wonder if we should redline at 7.5 K and get rid of the apv's
Thoughts?
OD

Brettus

05-06-2009, 04:44 PM

/\ agree about the lower redline - I rarely go over 8000 (with turbo) . Like I said in your other thread - tune your pulley for max SC output at 8000 and lower your redline to that and you will get better results all round ...

The APV's however do provide much more flow in the 6500 and above range , and seeing as you still spend a lot of your time above 6500 you still need them .

JMKuco

05-06-2009, 05:41 PM

Well, stop driving your car. You need to do some trouble shooting, look at your data. Im busy moving so ill point you in the rite direction, there is the ever preasant Cat problem, how many miles on car???cat?? then its off to the fuel pump (Check filter). Check everything you did and dont keep driving your car till you find the problem, you will now if its the problem, also check you OMP line!!!!
my car has 35000km (+- 21 745miles). my cat is a reamemiya and has less then 10 000miles.

I'll check the fuel filter ... what is OMP :spank:?

I think it is a fuel probleme because it smells a lot when it is parked !

To be honest, since the flash (before I install every thing), my car was unable to remain on the idle position... I think an error might have occured...
My efidude stopped working after I flash the car... so I am waiting the new one to logg some data... but think it might comes from the flash...is it possible ?:icon_no2:

Rotr8

05-06-2009, 05:46 PM

I am beginning to wonder if we should redline at 7.5 K and get rid of the apv's
Thoughts?
OD

/\ agree about the lower redline - I rarely go over 8000 (with turbo) . Like I said in your other thread - tune your pulley for max SC output at 8000 and lower your redline to that and you will get better results all round ...

The APV's however do provide much more flow in the 6500 and above range , and seeing as you still spend a lot of your time above 6500 you still need them .

Aggreed, I rarely go over 8300 ever,,,

Brettus

05-06-2009, 05:50 PM

/\ whippled wankel LOL

olddragger

05-06-2009, 07:59 PM

7.5 K for me. Anything higher slows me down. + much easier on everything. 1.3 K difference between closed and open apv's doesnt sound like a lot?

JMK --your car will smell richer after the install. it has to have lower a/f's --so more gas smell.
what kind of a/f's are you seeing?
olddragger

Rote8

05-06-2009, 10:46 PM

But the 9K rpm beep sounds so good....
/Likes my massive MAF readings too.
//Even if the car is not in forward motion.
///Need new tires again....

Brettus

05-07-2009, 12:04 AM

1.3 K difference between closed and open apv's doesnt sound like a lot?

olddragger

you have got to be kidding - in full throttle acc. through the gears you would spend 40% of the time in that rev range ....

JMKuco

05-07-2009, 11:41 AM

JMK --your car will smell richer after the install. it has to have lower a/f's --so more gas smell.
what kind of a/f's are you seeing?
olddragger

it is more in the lean section...

Rote8

05-07-2009, 11:56 AM

it is more in the lean section...

You never answered the most important question:
Did you re-flash the stock ECU; or what are you using for the REQUIRED fuel injection changes?
If you have not made any ECU changes, do not even start the engine.

joff

05-07-2009, 12:23 PM

here is what I found about that :
P0171 Adaptive Fuel Trim Too Lean (Bank 1)

You will get this exact CEL (at least I did) if you attempt to idle with the stock ECU tune.

The SC + I/C + UIM seems to kill low RPM air velocity and the injectors don't atomize as efficiently as stock anymore. It needs more fuel at the low MAF readings to compensate. The ECU reads lean because the fuel squirted didn't all combust and there is lots of O2 left over.

olddragger

05-07-2009, 12:40 PM

Brettus---beg to differ.. i spend more time from 4.7K to 6.7K.
Casual observation on track:
coming out of turn 9 at roebling road is = for me approx 106--108 mph in 5 gear. I cant come out in 4th as that is getting to close to the redline factor and it is not nearly as smooth of an acclearation. this turn opens to the main straight--almost 3/4 mile long maybe?
Now if i leave the car in 5th I notice a steady state of speed gain. If I short shift to 6th at approx 6.5 to 6.7 K then my rate of speed gain is noticibly faster--the numbers on the speedometer are going by at a faster rate---easy to tell the differance. if i wait to 7.5K to shift to 6th I have a slower entry speed approaching the turn at the end of the straight.
I am not slow and the MAF on my car is pulling 305 at 7.7K. But --i guess it is the torque that is pulling me faster in 6th? I dont know--but I do know its faster to short shift.
Guess this is one of those times that therory and real time results are different?
olddragger

JMKuco

05-07-2009, 03:34 PM

You never answered the most important question:
Did you re-flash the stock ECU; or what are you using for the REQUIRED fuel injection changes?
If you have not made any ECU changes, do not even start the engine.

For now I did not do any fuel injection changes... will come soon :wiggle:

but I did the re-flash like pettit told me...but what I said is that something might have happen because when I plug the efi programmer to my computer to "change his personnality into a logger" :eyetwitch the Efi stop working.

so I sent it to pettit...and i am waiting for my new one... I parked my car in my house and keep waiting.
Yesterday I control the ose and everything looked good...
the only problem I have is the idle that does not exist... :icon_no2:

Rote8

05-07-2009, 04:23 PM

For now I did not do any fuel injection changes... will come soon :wiggle:

but I did the re-flash like pettit told me...but what I said is that something might have happen because when I plug the efi programmer to my computer to "change his personnality into a logger" :eyetwitch the Efi stop working.

so I sent it to pettit...and i am waiting for my new one... I parked my car in my house and keep waiting.
Yesterday I control the ose and everything looked good...
the only problem I have is the idle that does not exist... :icon_no2:

Ah, Your car is not yet flashed.
Do not start the car, wait for the correct flash from Pettit.

Please call Pettit as soon as possible (if you have not already done that), I am sure Cam will help you.

The reason your car will not idle is the stock Mazda flash does not take the blower into account at idle.
Driving the car in this condition causes severe engine damage, because of lean air fuel ratios under boost.

Pettit normally flashes the ECU before installing the blower.

JMKuco

05-07-2009, 04:31 PM

fellow rx8 guys at the track on this same day were hitting 220F with their coolant--some never learn--i have talked and talked and shown hard data. Still no one is interested. I just dont understand it. They will spend money on water pumps and thermostats (which only help a little ) but not this. Doesnt make sense.

the 09 pump basically needs 3 things to install:
1- the connector from the fuel level sending unit etc is a little different--so that has to be fixed--slight rewire--no prob
2- the tank venturi line has to be cut ( the 09 pump uses a bigger line and the connector will not fit) and fitted to the pump with submersible gas hose using just regular hose clamps. remember this line does not have a lot of pressure on it.
3- the entire pump assembly has to be rotated approx 90 degrees when it is installed so the fuel hose that goes to the injectors will line up ok and not have any binding (have to be careful with the venturi and wiring when you do this--its not a prob--just dont do it without watching these 2 things.
Once you get this kit on the car, get it dialed in, and you are comfortable running it without watching gauges a lot--you will be a force that any stock bodied daily driven car needs to watch for. You still wont pull ALL of them on the straight, but they will be surprised when they dont pull you SO much and when the braking and twisters come around--there you are--eating their ass!! Before --that pull away distance was too much to make up. .
olddragger
don't you have some picts of the installation.... :wiggle:

JMKuco

05-07-2009, 04:36 PM

Ah, Your car is not yet flashed.
Do not start the car, wait for the correct flash from Pettit.

Please call Pettit as soon as possible (if you have not already done that), I am sure Cam will help you.

The reason your car will not idle is the stock Mazda flash does not take the blower into account at idle.
Driving the car in this condition causes severe engine damage, because of lean air fuel ratios under boost.

Pettit normally flashes the ECU before installing the blower.

Ok thanks,

I did drive the car, but I won't do it agin since I do not have the correct flash

Moon Assad

05-07-2009, 06:55 PM

Good, keep in mind if it dosnt idle somthing is wrong, dont drive it till it idles perfect then go from there. Guess you got a dud Dude, lol. Keep in mind everyone, never plug and unplug the dude till your car is off, take the key out to be sure.

Rote8

05-07-2009, 07:01 PM

Ok thanks,

I did drive the car, but I won't do it agin since I do not have the correct flash

Reading through your posts, it seems you changed the programmer to a logger; you need to program the ECU first, it should have came loaded with a flash and ready to go as a programmer.

Make sure the battery is fully charged or on a battery charger.
Turn the key to "on" (as far as it will go, without the start position)
Firmly plug the programmer into the ODB2 port.
"Wait the longest 2 minutes of your life"

You will see the programmer dongle LED turn red and keep flashing during the 2 minute programming.
Do not remove the dongle until the LED turns green again.
Remove the dongle after it turns green.
Turn the key off.
Start the car and you should have a CEL from the ECU being disconnected during the flash, remove the battery cables for a few minutes to clear the CEL.

Now turn the programmer to a logger; before you accidentally flash the ECU again some time.

Connect the battery and go drive.

california style

05-08-2009, 04:17 AM

using the efidude can be tricky sometimes when transforming between logger and programmer. You need to make sure it is set up right.

Sometimes its best to change it to a logger , then to a programemr to make sure its inthe right mode. once its a programmer then load up the token and the flash. Then reflash, then return to logger.

If in doubt, bail out, transform to logger and try again. Also I found it best to load flashes manually rather than with the wizard, which seemed to get stuck and not load properly sometimes.

Brettus

05-08-2009, 05:07 PM

You forgot to add - always be aware what mode your reflash tool is in when you plug it into the port . Hence the reason I now own a tow rope ......

Rote8

05-08-2009, 07:26 PM

You forgot to add - always be aware what mode your reflash tool is in when you plug it into the port . Hence the reason I now own a tow rope ......

^^^^ This :D:

dannobre

05-08-2009, 08:25 PM

You forgot to add - always be aware what mode your reflash tool is in when you plug it into the port . Hence the reason I now own a tow rope ......

Me too...The ECU doesn't like it when it's confused :(

Rote8

05-10-2009, 03:10 PM

I always had leaks with the nylon methanol lines, here is my solution.
AN -6 to the pump, and AN -4 to the intake.

:naughty:

/Yeah, it's time to wire tie my stereo wires too.

olddragger

05-10-2009, 10:27 PM

pretty but will those aluminum connectors get ate up by the methanol?

I have discovered we need a minimum of 52 sq inches of air filter. anyone know how many we have?
olddragger

dannobre

05-10-2009, 10:47 PM

You should really use brass fittings..they won't corrode and leak like the aluminum ones...although if the anodization is intact they aren't that bad

I'm a bit concerned about you mounting that pump in the trunk though :( If there is a leak..you will get a trunk full of methanol vapor very fast......and one spark and......well you get it.

There is a good spot to mount it under the floor behind the passenger wheel well.....

endowdly

05-10-2009, 11:02 PM

Sorry to bother, but can someone clarify the water meth use for me? I under stand it is used to cool boost air temps, correct?

Where is it injected, is it recycled (from the photo ^^^ it doesn't look like it), and when should a water meth system be used?

Thx
R

Rote8

05-11-2009, 08:03 AM

pretty but will those aluminum connectors get ate up by the methanol?

I have discovered we need a minimum of 52 sq inches of air filter. anyone know how many we have?
olddragger

One air filter?
:lol:

I have no idea, but it is a K&N filter, K&N would know.

You should really use brass fittings..they won't corrode and leak like the aluminum ones...although if the anodization is intact they aren't that bad

I'm a bit concerned about you mounting that pump in the trunk though :( If there is a leak..you will get a trunk full of methanol vapor very fast......and one spark and......well you get it.

There is a good spot to mount it under the floor behind the passenger wheel well.....

It is 50/50 water-methanol now, much safer.

Sorry to bother, but can someone clarify the water meth use for me? I under stand it is used to cool boost air temps, correct?

Where is it injected, is it recycled (from the photo ^^^ it doesn't look like it), and when should a water meth system be used?

Thx
R

The water-methanol mix is not "recycled"
The octane increase is nice:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines))
In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

olddragger

05-11-2009, 08:35 AM

yea--agreed 50/50 w/m is really non combustible to open flame--i have mine in the truck also.Have the 1+gallon tank--in road racing the 1-2 quart is not big enough.

I use w/m anytime i put a near full to full load on the car.

A leak could cause a mess through--Dan is right about that and I may double tube the tank to pump connection--thanks dan:)

Amend to the size of air filter we need IT IS 61 SQ INCHES--this is after consult with K&N---currently we have approx mid 40's so high rpm demands are lacking. Have you ever wondered why Racing Beat Revi intake had such a big filter in it? Maybe this is why Juan once changed to the more open weave type(non daily use Blitz I believe) he gained some up top power. Currently i am looking for something that will fit. I wonder how the APex i filter would do?
Feedback?
olddragger

endowdly

05-11-2009, 10:59 AM

JMKuco

05-11-2009, 12:19 PM

OK !
I finaly receive my new Efidude (I live far away :))
I sent a mail to cam to know if I re-flash the PCM with the old files they sent me or if I wait for some new files ...

waiting for news....

Rote8

05-11-2009, 12:58 PM

The water-methanol mix is not "recycled"
The octane increase is nice:
http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems.com/a11/116+-Octane-With-Water-Injection!/article_info.html

Great article!

Thanks for the clarification. Sounds pretty wicked, actually.

How much will a 2 quart jug last you and how much does it cost per fill of water-meth?

R

I was paying $50+ for 4 gallons of Snow Performance brand "Boost-Juice" (50/50 water-methanol). :banghead:
Now I have purchased a 5 gallon can of VP Racing's M1 straight methanol (for 51 dollars) and mix it 50/50 with distilled water from the grocery store. :)

Others, here on the forum, mix the VP Racing M5 (methanol with a small amount of nitromethane and some upper engine lube)

I can run through a quart in a 25 mile city drive, or use hardly any on the highway.
It's all in the way you hold your right foot

endowdly

05-11-2009, 02:08 PM

hmm... :yesnod:

Rote8

05-11-2009, 04:17 PM

~

A leak could cause a mess through--Dan is right about that and I may double tube the tank to pump connection--thanks dan:)

That is exactly why I went to braided lines with AN connectors.

Amend to the size of air filter we need IT IS 61 SQ INCHES--this is after consult with K&N---currently we have approx mid 40's so high rpm demands are lacking. Have you ever wondered why Racing Beat Revi intake had such a big filter in it? Maybe this is why Juan once changed to the more open weave type(non daily use Blitz I believe) he gained some up top power. Currently i am looking for something that will fit. I wonder how the APex i filter would do?
Feedback?
olddragger

I saw a photo of a non-boosted 8 with two K&N filters arranged into a "tee" on this forum.

olddragger

05-11-2009, 06:13 PM

w/m --i use windsheild washer fluid -20F blue color and 2 bottles of heet . cost about $4 a gallon that way and easily available.
Pay attention to the air filter thingy here.
OD

Rote8

05-11-2009, 07:22 PM

w/m --i use windsheild washer fluid -20F blue color and 2 bottles of heet ~
OD

Which HEET (http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/heet/products.aspx) product?

olddragger

05-12-2009, 08:07 AM

JMKuco

05-12-2009, 09:37 AM

Once again if you want another 10 hp up top --get a bigger air filter!!
olddragger

you get more hp by simply changing the K&N air filter for a bigger one ? :eyetwitch

JMKuco

05-12-2009, 09:39 AM

:banghead: I have a hard time reaching Cam !

I received my new EfiDude but I do not know if they have to send me new datas to flash the car or do I use the old ones ? :confused:

endowdly

05-12-2009, 10:15 AM

you get more hp by simply changing the K&N air filter for a bigger one ? :eyetwitch

More air... more combustion... more HP!

Rote8

05-12-2009, 04:27 PM

yellow bottle only--dont use the red one--if you want more than 50/50 w/m concentration just add 3 bottles.
if you have to get the snow stuff shipped that is whats kills ya. Summit racing is about 40 min from home and i can get it at $32 a case--but its no different than what i use.
the m5 stuff--i am not sure the pump seals can take that for long--snow advises not to use it.

I found new pump seals for ten dollars.
(I was running straight methanol w 40% nitro; ask me about frozen intakes!)

Once again if you want another 10 hp up top --get a bigger air filter!!
olddragger

Do you have any idea what filter model(s)?

Update:

Just ordered
K&N - RE-0950 3.5 in (intake dia) 6 in (base dia) 4.625 in (end dia) 6 in (length) 1.75 in (base plate length)
I'll let you know if it fits!

Update 2:
The K&N RE-0950 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=KNN-RE-0950&N=700+115&autoview=sku) fits!
It barely goes into place, once in place, it fits exactly.
It will fit better without the stock plastic tray (Pettit kit retained) that went under the OEM airbox.
Mine was "forced" into place with the plastic tray still installed; once in place, it fits good.

olddragger

05-13-2009, 05:57 PM

nope looking at different models myself .Some folks maf may not like the change either.
where is everyone?
OD

rotarenvy

05-13-2009, 06:22 PM

I have discovered we need a minimum of 52 sq inches of air filter. anyone know how many we have?
olddragger

how did you work this one out? there is the old pressure drop test. see how much the pressure drops across the filter less is better.

for the approximate area:
measure the depth of a pleat on the air filter x2 x number of folds x the height of the filter.

olddragger

05-14-2009, 11:51 AM

K& n provides a formula
if i remember correctly it goes like this

cu in's x rpm
----------------
20. something

now the cu in thing has to be figued "differently" for the rotary engine--its about the amount of air you are moving not the actual cu in--so we are at approx 2.3 liter which is about 168 cu in?
anyway they said we need approx and at LEAST 61 sq inches of filter. I really dont know how to figue the cone filters sq ins--it just not big enough. I can est of maybe 40's?
rote -- old buddy you have some air restriction going on by the close proximitys of the fuse box etc and your out side airflow into the engine bay is pretty much restricted--isnt it?
change out that oem airbox mount thingy and make some room.
ever get your dwell times changed?
olddragger

Rotr8

05-14-2009, 12:25 PM

Rotr8

05-14-2009, 12:28 PM

nope looking at different models myself .Some folks maf may not like the change either.where is everyone?
OD

And what do you mean by that???
Please ellaborate

Rote8

05-14-2009, 06:04 PM

So whos gonna dive in and try and adapt the AEM CAI to the MAF pipe... The filter that comes with it is far larger than the one we have...
Hows bout it Denny wanna take a try???
I have the K&N drycharger 'sock' on my filter now and above 7K rpm you can hear it slapping the skin of the sock around on the filter, diffintely seems to be pulling more air than it can handle...
When I brought the whole CAI thing up a while back, everyone was screaming" you dont want to do that, blah blah blah",, for the life of me cant understand why not?

I think the AEM is too small diameter, you will run rich.
Our MAF tube is 3.5 inches in diameter; I am guessing that a CAI tube about 4 inches in diameter from the Pettit MAF all the way to a 4 inch diameter filter flange would be about right.

I see a hack saw in my future.... :uhh:

Salamanth

05-14-2009, 06:58 PM

I think the AEM is too small diameter, you will run rich.
Our MAF tube is 3.5 inches in diameter; I am guessing that a CAI tube about 4 inches in diameter from the Pettit MAF all the way to a 4 inch diameter filter flange would be about right.

I see a hack saw in my future.... :uhh:

The AEM MAF housing, intake or filter is too small diameter?

The Pettit housing is *supposed* to be stock diameter, from what I read. AEM MAF housing is as close to stock as any aftermarket intake out there... try running a 4" diameter pipe up to the 3.5" MAF housing and I bet you'll have some issues with turbulence. I don't even understand how the stock Pettit setup works well since the filter is so crazy close to the MAF... :Eyecrazy:

olddragger

05-14-2009, 07:05 PM

Rote8

05-14-2009, 08:06 PM

do NOT change the maf tube!! I~

No way will I change the MAF tube; I was going to stay with the Pettit MAF, but from there forward I intend to adapt up from the 3.5" of the Pettit MAF to a 4" pipe and run the 4" pipe out to the front like a Mazdaspeed intake, but on steroids.

Yes, logging is the second thing to do after any change. (first thing is a ROOM fuse pull)
:uhh:

I think the over rich condition of most stock RX8 CAIs (when used on the Pettit kit) is because the blower pulls much more air than what the CAI is designed for.

I plan to mock up the CAI with PVC next weekend and replace my "tray" under the coils and air filter.

LOL:
I found a filter I like. (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=41-1400) for my CAI project; think it has enough filter area?

california style

05-15-2009, 03:57 AM

I found a filter I like. (http://www.knfilters.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=41-1400) for my CAI project; think it has enough filter area?

jeez, if surface area is so important to K&N why does their products not tell you the filter surface area!

Rote8

05-15-2009, 05:04 AM

It was suggested to not use 4 inch pipe, because necking it down in front of the MAF makes turbulence; Hmm 3.5 airflow vs 4 inch airflow vs turbulence....

Rotr8

05-15-2009, 07:19 AM

No way will I change the MAF tube; I was going to stay with the Pettit MAF, but from there forward I intend to adapt up from the 3.5" of the Pettit MAF to a 4" pipe and run the 4" pipe out to the front like a Mazdaspeed intake, but on steroids.

Umm thats what I just asked !!!

Rotr8

05-15-2009, 07:21 AM

what about a 3.5" pipe(from MAF forward obvoiusly) down to the arear where the AEM/MS sit...

Phil's 8

05-15-2009, 08:11 AM

I see that Fluid is adversising that they have a used Pettit s/c for sale. I was unaware that any one has given theirs up. I would be interested to know who's it is.

endowdly

05-15-2009, 09:21 AM

...I heard it was from a whole car he bought and ripped the Pettit off to replace it with a Hymee...

I asked him how much he wanted for it. He's asking $5000 for the complete CS kit which has 5 k miles. I then said I had a full exhaust already and he said $4700 for just the kit.

...this reminds me, I forgot to tell him I'd be better off buying a new one from Cam...

Rotr8

05-15-2009, 10:28 AM

I heard he's selling the car too...

Phil's 8

05-15-2009, 11:53 AM

So I take it that no one knows who's 8 was sold with the Pettit s/c? As far as I have been able figure, this is the first one up for resale. There are a few older owners that we have not heard from in quite a while.

Salamanth

05-15-2009, 03:57 PM

do NOT change the maf tube!! I repeat Do not!!!
also --word of warning here---anytime you change anything on the intake whether it is a cold air supply--new type filter etc--ALWAYS do some data logging before you run it hard. Check the a/f's. Some maf's do not like change!!!! Some will develop excessive long term trims, some will actually run leaner---i have had that happen----some will have wildly fluctuating a/f's--i have had that happen also. I have not found the right one for my car yet. I am probably preaching to the choir here --but wanted to throw that out.
I just tried a new one--looked good per a/f meter--best i could tell --until i did a 30mpg to 80 mph 3nd gear run and logged per efi dude. after looking at the file its coming off. I barely made it into the 12's under boost and at 7.5K!! Thats with the water meth running!! The efi dude monitors the most important a/f --the one that the computer talks too. My innovate a/f was also not showing any low 12's or any 11's during the little run--but it happens so fast. But on the road during normal driving she was reading right--you know low 14's cruising drops in the 13's etc during light acceleration or above 3.8K.
JUST BE CAREFUL.
olddragger

Are you sure you aren't running into turbulence issues from the closeness of the filter element to the MAF using the default pettit setup?

It's been *widely* reported that the RX-8 MAF is extremely sensitive to turbulence in airflow, and I can only imagine with that short a distance between the filter and MAF, it must be seeing a lot of turbulence.

I'm not very familiar with the pettit setup (Rotr8 is the only one near me, and I doubt he wants me playing with his :lol2:), but are you guys running screens before your MAF to even out the airflow?

I would love to try replacing the pettit intake completely with the AEM intake... the only reason it should cause issues is if the Pettit MAF housing is not stock sized and the EFI dude reflash is scaling the MAF readings. (Not proposing someone try this, but I can't see why it should matter unless pettit added some sort of special sauce to a round 3.5" tube that makes it special...)

--------------------*added*---------------------------

Got to thinking about it and I can't see any reason why a 3.5" intake would be harmful as opposed to a 4". It's all about intake air velocity. Obviously you have less resistance if you run the same amount of air through a larger pipe, but the restrictive element is probably the air filter and not the pipe (as olddragger is indirectly saying). I would propose someone try a hacked up AEM intake fitted directly to the pettit MAF housing with a larger K&N filter fitted to it. Not sure how much room remains in the bumper with the intercooler in there...

*muses*

olddragger

05-15-2009, 04:26 PM

in speaking with Cam--he advises no screens, no velocity pipes(aka racing beats) etc. The maf is tuned for the pipe and the filter where it is now. Any changes at your on risk.
Filters? He said stick with K&N, size should not matter as far as the tune is concerned--he is familar with flow patterns etc of the k&N's. A bigger filter that is maf friendly may help a little up top. I am going to try the K&N RF-1033.
Now cold air is ok if it is delivered to the filter--Juan tried a true cai once and had to abandon it because of abberant a/f's readings.
here is a formula for getting the surface area of a cone
get the surface area of the base --surface area of the base is equal to pie R2 , the lateral surface area is = to pieRslant height of the cone --add the 2 and that is the surface area.
Some one want to try?
olddragger

Rote8

05-15-2009, 04:43 PM

~

I would propose someone try a hacked up AEM intake fitted directly to the pettit MAF housing with a larger K&N filter fitted to it. Not sure how much room remains in the bumper with the intercooler in there...

*muses*

The AEM is 3 inches in diameter :icon_no2:

olddragger

05-15-2009, 09:08 PM

new info with Rotary God's help

Thanks RG--I wasnt aware of the boost addition, but in just consulting with K&N I found out that some of use are using filters that are approx 50sq inch of filtering area. That is not enough for a non FI renesis engine turning just 8K.
Some folks are trying to tune and I am not sure if this aspect of the system has been considered.
In consulting with K&N they gave this info also to work with---
"Use the formula below to compute the minimum size filter required for your particular application. The usable portion of the filter is called the EFFECTIVE FILTERING AREA which is determined by multiplying the diameter of the filter times Pi (3.1416) times the height of the air filter in inches, then subtracting .75-inch. We subtract .75-inch to compensate for the rubber seals on each end of the element and the filter material near them since very little air flows through this area.
A=(CID X RPM) / 20,839
A = effective filtering area
CID = cubic inch displacement
RPM = revolutions per minute at maximum power
Example: A 350 CID Chevy engine with a horsepower peak at 5,500 rpm.
A=(350 X 5500) / 20,839 = 92.4 square inches "

Now remembering that the rotary engine moves air like an engine that is over 2 L I used 2.3 liter as the effective size for the formula.
---So
140.35 cubic inches x 9000/20,839== 60.61 square inches of filtration. Round it to 61.

Looks like Racing Beat and their Revi intake meets that requirement? But us FI boys that i have seen are not! Most that i have seen are using the K&N 6 inch cone shaped with a 3.5 inch inlet and a 5.75 base and 4.5 inch top with 6 inchs long. Now figuring out the sq inches of a cone shaped filter is a little harder BUT my best est is in the 50's.
now just running a 9 lb boost and running your formula that comes out to a 98 square inches of air filter. I have not seen an fi rx8 with that big of a filter. We have work to do.
Appreciate the help dude.
olddragger
__________________

Salamanth

05-16-2009, 02:38 AM

The AEM is 3 inches in diameter :icon_no2:

Someone made a prior comment before stating that the Pettit MAF housing was stock size. As I said, I do not have a pettit system and I'm not super familiar with the particulars.

So the pettit flash has the MAF readings scaled to match the new housing diameter, interesting...

JMKuco

05-16-2009, 08:06 AM

Hi !!!

I have still no idle, the car tuns off.
I sent an efi log to Cam and Dian (Efidde team) and I am still waiting.
meanwhile I was by my side wandering what can be the reason...
- is it possible it comes from the sparks..they are brand new (from pettit), but maybe a didn't put them in the correct position...
- I checked my engine and I remember I didn't do the next picture red connection ; can it comes from theire ?

:banghead:

or else the car looks to run good ...no CEL again...for now :banghead:

olddragger

05-16-2009, 08:25 AM

pettit has its own maf tube as you know--it is relativly oem size--but the oem tube is not circular--its actually slightly oblong/oval shaped(racing beat had this same issue) Racing beat maf tube is actually larger than Pettits. every maf is custom tuned to the pipe it sets in. even the lenght can make a differance.

JMK --man i dont know what is going on with your car. even with the stock tune the car should idle. Mine did -when i swapped over from the int x to the pettit flash--before the flash but the int x out of the car--Cam had me crank it--didnt rev it!!---and the car cranked fine and idled fine.
Start basic troubleshooting---i am not familer with the diagram you posted but it looks like a vacum line going through the TB? Thats not essential.
Can you crank the car and hold the rpms--say at 1500? Will it do that?
Check all coils and harness's, double check fuel injection harness to insure the right plug is to the right injector.
check the electrical connectors i the maf--if they are not good my car will not idle!
send us pics of you vacuum line hook ups? Wiring maybe? dunno--just trying to help anyway i can.
olddragger

shinka213

05-16-2009, 10:04 AM

yeah....i saw that used SC for sale...
some people seem to think that's a good price...not me...
i would not pay $5 for a used SC...

also, it seems like "mums" the word on who's it was... :lol2:

endowdly

05-16-2009, 11:14 AM

^ My thought exactly. Not worth it.

california style

05-16-2009, 07:11 PM

JMKuco

05-17-2009, 01:49 PM

when you did the reflash did you leave the car to adjust and find idle?

You need to leave it running for a good 5 minutes while the computer sorts itself out adjusting to new loadings and so on? Does it run badly then stall, or just cut out straight away?

I did the reflash before installing the kit.
The car worked well after but with the same probleme then now : no idle...meaning run badly on the idle then stall.

EfiDude Team told me that it is normal as the flash is for a supercharged rx8.
So I did the install, but it changes nothing, if I turn on my car it runs badly then stall.

To keep the idle position, I have to put a very slow pression pression on the accelerator pedal to keep the RPM around 1200RPM.... so I think the probleme just comes from the flash... I am waiting for Cam's answer to know what to do ...

olddragger

05-17-2009, 02:19 PM

normal idle is 1100-1200rpm with the sc kit installed and the flash running the computer
olddragger

Rote8

05-17-2009, 06:44 PM

I did the reflash before installing the kit.
The car worked well after but with the same probleme then now : no idle...meaning run badly on the idle then stall.

EfiDude Team told me that it is normal as the flash is for a supercharged rx8.
So I did the install, but it changes nothing, if I turn on my car it runs badly then stall.

To keep the idle position, I have to put a very slow pression pression on the accelerator pedal to keep the RPM around 1200RPM.... so I think the probleme just comes from the flash... I am waiting for Cam's answer to know what to do ...

It sounds like it did not get flashed.
Usually a failed flash means a bricked ECU, not a bad idle.

I would just remove the ECU and FedEx it to Cam and let him flash it.