Uh oh,
The tuning problem, that would not be long term fuel trims, would it?
No one can find why I am building such huge LTFTs.

I see a compression test in my future, or I will always wonder.

Can you make 300 RWHP with bad seals?
No not now. I would consider a compression test as a normal tuning procedure now that I see what can happen. My fuel trims are know by Jeff (Mazda Maniac) and not really by me. He does my tuning. My problem was that it happened so slowly and so evenly you would have also blamed it on tuning or something else closely related. My compression loss is almost flat across the combustion range 50psi.

now if I can just remember how i got those pics to cross over:uhh:

Glad yall liked that:)
I am not through with it yet and yep it is labor intensive. The vdi area looks one heck of a lot better than oem AND yall havent seen what I have done to the other sides of it --hehe. When I swap out I will also have a heat barrier gasket going on. Remember a bunch of little things carefully done can result in a pretty good result. keep in mind that total cross sectional area on a intake runner is very important and the shape of the runner leading to the intake port is very important. Also --you would not believe how thick the aluminum is on this baby.
Not ready yet to do anyone elses. Maybe at some point. Stay tuned.

Moon that is really good work man, Grassroot stuff yet advanced. Something about making it yourself isnt it?

Phil do the decarb (very heavily 1st) x fingers for ya friend. There are some things that can help with cooling this baby but you have probably read them all. jeff is very much aware.
OD

the lost of compression is either carbon buildup or just flat wore out. end of story. and since it is across the board it is probably not carbon---but you never know.
with leaky seals i dont think i would have the s/c belt on?
OD

the lost of compression is either carbon buildup or just flat wore out. end of story.

Well, not exactly. "Wore out" would indicate a condition where parts that normally wear did so at an accelerated rate.
In Phils case, its likely that he distorted something by overheating it - maybe repeatedly. Not really "wear".

Uh oh,
The tuning problem, that would not be long term fuel trims, would it?
No one can find why I am building such huge LTFTs.

No. In Phil's case, it was a gradual degradation of his idle as the thing got hot and a general lack of power.

Can you make 300 RWHP with bad seals?

That depends on what you mean by "bad seals".


with leaky seals i dont think i would have the s/c belt on?


With seals that are just "leaking" - or in Phil's case, warped/bent or riding in deformed housings or against scored irons - boost will just make up for the lost compression. Can't hurt the motor. It will just keep it from being sluggish.

Yea I do have a tendency to over generalized, i define wore out as just not working right. Sort of like me sometimes:)
I certainly can see how the boost would help with the output. I thought at this point the less demand on the engine the better. He has a rebuildable engine now, hope it doesnt turn into a non rebuildable one.
OD

In any case when something isnt rite you shouldnt keep driving it, If you havent taken it apart to see what the problem is for sure. Dont make any estimates because you never now. It could meen the difference between needing new housings, rotors, even needing machining of the rotor or not. Thats why they say tow your car if you nitice a problem.

In any case when something isnt rite you shouldnt keep driving it, If you havent taken it apart to see what the problem is for sure. Dont make any estimates because you never now. It could meen the difference between needing new housings, rotors, even needing machining of the rotor or not. Thats why they say tow your car if you nitice a problem.

Nah. His car developed this problem gradually. The likelihood of a catastrophic failure at this point is low.
Furthermore, we have such an abundance of parts at our disposal right now that we can take care of whatever might arise.
If there is any scoring (which there might be), it isn't going to be made and "worse" by driving it - those parts are already toast.

In any case when something isnt rite you shouldnt keep driving it, If you havent taken it apart to see what the problem is for sure. Dont make any estimates because you never now. It could meen the difference between needing new housings, rotors, even needing machining of the rotor or not. Thats why they say tow your car if you nitice a problem.
Thank you for your concern Moon. I don't think it could get worse than it is now. They have new everything ready for the rebuild. We even have a contingency for a thrashed engine (I hope it does not come to that).

With seals that are just "leaking" - or in Phil's case, warped/bent or riding in deformed housings or against scored irons - boost will just make up for the lost compression. Can't hurt the motor. It will just keep it from being sluggish.


I just can't stop building huge long term fuel trims. and the car dies if you let off too fast when you are on it. (say HARD 9K burst, let off, immediately clutch in and let engine idle)
This only started when I got rid of my Cat.
I just had to go with a 3 inch exhaust all the way back from the exhaust manifold......

It's also NOT changing, it is worse after pulling the ROOM fuse.

My thoughts:
exhaust just too large???
bad MAF sensor?
intake leak?

Then there is always:
Bad compression?

That is why I ask if the car can make over 300RWHP with a "bad" engine.

I plan on a compression check soon to settle my mind on this last issue.

If it is bad, I plan on buying a second engine to rebuild, or buying housings, rotors and E-shaft.

I wanna build a cermet one, one day....

Norm

Is dumping the CAT the only thing you did?

Is dumping the CAT the only thing you did?

What made the change; Mazsport midpipe and Racing Beat REV8.

Yeah, I have since added methanol, but without any drivability changes.
The sudden let off killing it, after a hard run, it's been there ever since the exhaust change.

It feels almost like a lightened fly wheel.

Don't get me wrong, the car is perfectly drivable, you just need to remember to let off slow if you get on it very hard.

I would be shocked if it did have low compression, but with all the current talk of tuning problems becoming bad motors.....
Paranoia maybe.

Still, a simple compression check can tell the facts, regardless of my paranoia....

PS: Maybe I should have used Mazda sand to clean it, not Honda sand.
(I loved that story)

anything from a vacuum leak to a potato in your exhaust pipe.
would not happen to have the a/c on do ya? just a thought.
time to do the check sheet?
olddragger

anything from a vacuum leak to a potato in your exhaust pipe.
would not happen to have the a/c on do ya? just a thought.
time to do the check sheet?
olddragger

<Eddie Murphy voice>
I'm not gonna fall for the potato in the tail pipe.



A/C off helps some, when the IAT goes down it is the most help.
With the methanol, I can run IATs below ambient temps.

I have searched, tested, sprayed and everything else I can think of to test for an intake leak.

OT - This has nothing to do with anything:

Rote8: do you know who this Rote8 is?:
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2379731&postcount=182

I'm trying to figure out how there could be two people on the forum with the same screen name.
The above-quoted "Rote8" is, apparently, banned since they have no info.

OT - This has nothing to do with anything:

Rote8: do you know who this Rote8 is?:
http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=2379731&postcount=182

I'm trying to figure out how there could be two people on the forum with the same screen name.
The above-quoted "Rote8" is, apparently, banned since they have no info.

Banned?
I thought the forum was just slow sometimes.:uhh:

There are some nice people that have been banned on occasion - don't hold that against them.

<nervous>
Hello?
Anyone?

<nervous>
Hello?
Anyone?

What's wrong?

What's wrong?


Didn't hear anything from anyone in a while.....
:uhh:

Didn't hear anything from anyone in a while.....
:uhh:
They are all saving it up for the "big bang" that's sure to come.......:)

Phil, sorry to hear about your problems; you've had your fair share with the INT-X.
Ironic it should show up after you get the flash. The best I can tell you is htat now's the time for you and Jeff to start new - good luck.

<Eddie Murphy voice>
I'm not gonna fall for the potato in the tail pipe.



A/C off helps some, when the IAT goes down it is the most help.
With the methanol, I can run IATs below ambient temps.

I have searched, tested, sprayed and everything else I can think of to test for an intake leak.

Where are your injections points for the alky?

Ironic it should show up after you get the flash.

Well, once all the other impediments were out of the way, it was easier to see what the base behavior was.

Well, once all the other impediments were out of the way, it was easier to see what the base behavior was.

Now if we could just accomplish the same thing with you. Maybe dock a ScanTool up your ass.

Where are your injections points for the alky?

I have one 175ml nozzle about an inch past the inter-cooler, spraying down vertically.
(I know, it should be spraying up, but it wets the I/C this way...)
Still too lazy to install the other nozzle on the intake side.....

I do have the dual nozzle kit and a 60 ml nozzle.
At this point I have quite a nozzle assortment: :)
60, 100, 175, 275. (The 175 is installed)

I am assuming you are using the "shut-off" solenoid on the nozzle in the picture? If not, siphoning could be taking place, especially during deceleration.

I am assuming you are using the "shut-off" solenoid on the nozzle in the picture? If not, siphoning could be taking place, especially during deceleration.


Yes, I do have the solenoid, it's on the firewall beside the windshield washer tank.
:)

Update: look to the immediate left of the tape measure in my picture, the solenoid can be seen in the picture.....

I also have the 2.5 gallon tank in the trunk.....

I thought you might have but I wanted to make sure. The next thing would be to reset your e-shaft profile.

I thought you might have but I wanted to make sure. The next thing would be to reset your e-shaft profile.


The brake pedal dance?
My car runs badly until it builds trims....

Yep. May not help but it won't hurt to do it.

when you say you re building trims of 7 at what load, rpm and speed does this occur
OD

Hey guys. Are you buying your water/meth anywhere other than Snow??

Hey guys. Are you buying your water/meth anywhere other than Snow??

Walgreen's. Sometimes the gas station. Wherever it is on sale.

Okay, i'll bite. Where in Walgreens??

I think he's talking about how some windshield washer fluids contain 50% methanol (HEET makes one too that I think they sell at Walgreens). You can also use HEET gas-line antifreeze (I think that stuff is 99% methanol) and mix it with distilled water.

I use the cheap stuff. I think its 5% - 10% or so (depending on where you live), premixed with distilled.
$1.30 a gallon.

Here I am buying RC Car fuel for 28 dollars....
77% methanol, 33% nitromethane.


:)
/I want M5 from VP Racing fuels.

Complete waste of money.

Until you are running 12:1 compression and 20+ PSI of boost with 20° or more of advance, you don't need anything like that.
The "fuel value" of the methanol is a complete waste - you are better off just tuning a bit more rich.
The cooling value *might* be useful since you guys are using a BBQ to compress your air, but probably not.
The water is really doing most of the work. The meth is added benefit.
Any power increases you see above what water alone gives you could be created by just running more fuel (and timing).

Complete waste of money.

Until you are running 12:1 compression and 20+ PSI of boost with 20° or more of advance, you don't need anything like that.
The "fuel value" of the methanol is a complete waste - you are better off just tuning a bit more rich.
The cooling value *might* be useful since you guys are using a BBQ to compress your air, but probably not.
The water is really doing most of the work. The meth is added benefit.
Any power increases you see above what water alone gives you could be created by just running more fuel (and timing).

That's it, I can go to BubaLou's for Psycho sauce to inject....
:)

If gas goes much higher I may convert to methanol.....

About the heat on a Pettit S/C:
Before I had methanol, I could still lay my hand on the S/C outlet after running it hard.
Can you do that with a turbo?

/don't hate me; Just stating a fact.....

About the heat on a Pettit S/C:
Before I had methanol, I could still lay my hand on the S/C outlet after running it hard.
Can you do that with a turbo?

/don't hate me; Just stating a fact.....

On the cold side? Yes. Easily. It only gets up to whatever the temp is in the engine bay. That is the equivalent part to your S/C outlet plenum.
Can you lay your hand on your exhaust manifold? No?
Same goes for the hot side of the turbo.
Oh, wait. I can lay my hand on that too. Copper-impregnated heat cloth FTW.

It all depends on where you live, though.
I can't even touch Phil's hood after a hard run.

BTW - the air coming out of my intercooler is ambient. How about yours?

MM why are you not watching Top Gear?

MM why are you not watching Top Gear?

1) I'm busy stripping the clear coat off of my rims and polishing them
2) I DVR it for later viewing
3) I already got it on BitTorrent

new wheels? or same wheels?

BTW - the air coming out of my intercooler is ambient. How about yours?

Oh snap! :lol: :lol:

new wheels? or same wheels?

Same. They were just getting a bit ratty, so I stripped them and polished them.
They look brand new now.
I also had the tires flipped (since I can't rotate them with the staggered fitment).

Oh snap! :lol: :lol:

Well, he didn't understand the fundamentals of what he was insinuating, so I redirected him.

Fact is, the output of the twin-screw is an order of magnitude hotter than the turbo and it only goes up as the RPMs rise, unlike the turbo where it stays the same no matter what.
Then, the A/W gets soaked and heats it even more in the mid-range, so you need the water/meth just to get back to where you started.

:bluesuit:

i just wanna express how much i love the interwebs

well at least now with the w/m system we can go below ambiet if we want. matter of fact if anyone with a spercharger wanted to, you could set up a system where an intercooler would not be needed---period.:)
Phil was getting that hot huh? damn.
olddragger

On the cold side? Yes. Easily. It only gets up to whatever the temp is in the engine bay. That is the equivalent part to your S/C outlet plenum.
Can you lay your hand on your exhaust manifold? No?
Same goes for the hot side of the turbo.
Oh, wait. I can lay my hand on that too. Copper-impregnated heat cloth FTW.


So you needed to cool the exhaust from the blow-torch/hair dryer?
:)


It all depends on where you live, though.
I can't even touch Phil's hood after a hard run.


Florida is hot, and humid 97/97 is the normal these days.


BTW - the air coming out of my intercooler is ambient. How about yours?

If I have been on it, about 10 to 30 degrees below ambient; that's pretty good considering you and I both have been running methanol.

The really fun thing is we can argue over turbo vs S/C for years.....
/and never solve a thing.
:)

PS: Ask your girlfriend which is the superior sex.....:uhh:

BTW - the air coming out of my intercooler is ambient. How about yours?

Are you claiming 100% intercooler efficiency with just an air to air setup?

Or 100% with meth injection also incorporated?

MM's got an Air/Blood Intercooler. He just hooks it up directly to his mechanical heart so his cold blood can circulate through it efficiently. :lol:

Are you claiming 100% intercooler efficiency with just an air to air setup?

Or 100% with meth injection also incorporated?

you can take meth out of the picture altogether... rather i think he's alluding to the compressor efficiency which the SC guy dont have. it's made up for in other areas i suppose, but then the argument about soaking your A/W interheater will start....

IIRC, i think i saw somewhere way back, that with that turbo you could hammer it all day long and keep charge temps ~10 degrees above ambient. that was just on air-air intercooler........ efficiency ftmfw

I get below ambient with just washer fluid.
You guys are over-thinking it a bit.

you can take meth out of the picture altogether... rather i think he's alluding to the compressor efficiency which the SC guy dont have. it's made up for in other areas i suppose, but then the argument about soaking your A/W interheater will start....

IIRC, i think i saw somewhere way back, that with that turbo you could hammer it all day long and keep charge temps ~10 degrees above ambient. that was just on air-air intercooler........ efficiency ftmfw

You're off a little...compressor efficiency has nothing to do with an assertion that an air to air unit is 100% efficient. There is no such thing as a 100% efficient air to air ic - standalone - you must have water spray, meth, ice, etc...something auxiliary to gain 100% efficiency and return charge temps to ambient.

As for the second paragraph, not really related at all.

I get below ambient with just washer fluid.
You guys are over-thinking it a bit.

So in other words it's not just from air to air alone. If Pettit owners are returning their temps to ambient with auxiliary injection also, where's the issue? Seems to me both sides are able to achieve ~100% return in cooling...sounds like a wash to me. Only thing that comes to mind is the threshold before the air to water system heat soaks.

You're off a little...compressor efficiency has nothing to do with an assertion that an air to air unit is 100% efficient. There is no such thing as a 100% efficient air to air ic - standalone - you must have water spray, meth, ice, etc...something auxiliary to gain 100% efficiency and return charge temps to ambient.

As for the second paragraph, not really related at all.

i wasnt trying to even consider intercooler efficiency... of course its not 100%... i was just pointing out that even with an efficient intercooler it takes an efficient compressor to keep charge temps that low w/o injection....

the second statement was really all i was trying to say.


So in other words it's not just from air to air alone. If Pettit owners are returning their temps to ambient with auxiliary injection also, where's the issue? Seems to me both sides are able to achieve ~100% return in cooling...sounds like a wash to me. Only thing that comes to mind is the threshold before the air to water system heat soaks.

again, my second statement... he gets just below ambient with washer fluid. with NO injection he was seeing only ~10 degrees above ambient(iirc)

what do the other guys see for charge temps w/o injection of any kind? and how long does that last before heat-soak of the A/W heater.

i think i actually agree with what you're saying, i just didnt present my thoughts well and they were slightly misunderstood for it :)

So in other words it's not just from air to air alone. If Pettit owners are returning their temps to ambient with auxiliary injection also, where's the issue? S

Price!

Price!

Come on, you always do better than that:lol: ...everyone's wallet and perspectives are completely different...while we're at it, though, we should all agree from this point forward that the sunrise is always more beautiful on Tuesdays than any other day of the week...

Who's with me...Tuesday's sunrises???

My point is that all of these expensive mixes do nothing that a jug of water and a bit more fuel in the tune can't accomplish in this application.

/Popcorn FTW

/Popcorn FTW


That's not popcorn - its detonation.

I saw 106-108F temps today just cruising at 40-55mph, with temps going up to the 130's after parking the car to go into a store and pick up some lunch. It got back down to normal cruising temps after cruising about 5 miles. Ambient temps were 95F, and I had the meth off. With the meth on and on a day like today, I can get the AITs down to the 80's. AITs are not much of a problem down here unless you're stuck in traffic on a hot day, but I would think that there's no practical way to avoid that. With the meth though it would be pretty easy to get them back down below ambient given the opportunity. I think the humidity down here makes the hot temps a little more bearable, since it eases the transfer of heat from the radiators to the air.

I saw 106-108F temps today just cruising at 40-55mph, with temps going up to the 130's after parking the car to go into a store and pick up some lunch. It got back down to normal cruising temps after cruising about 5 miles. Ambient temps were 95F, and I had the meth off. With the meth on and on a day like today, I can get the AITs down to the 80's. AITs are not much of a problem down here unless you're stuck in traffic on a hot day, but I would think that there's no practical way to avoid that. With the meth though it would be pretty easy to get them back down below ambient given the opportunity. I think the humidity down here makes the hot temps a little more bearable, since it eases the transfer of heat from the radiators to the air.
the cool temps you have with the water saturation, it has got to cooling- It's only 115 here today with 6% humidity. If you take that up percentages you would be over heating also.

Its a chilly 107°F here today.
I got in the car ans started it cold. The sCANalyzer said my IATs were 121°F and my coolant was 150°F by the time the starter motor stopped spinning!
Once I got moving, the IATs dropped to just above ambient and stayed there.
I drove 8 miles. The coolant got to 221°F and the IATs averaged 117°.
My intercooler inlet was 170° and the outlet was 107°F (ambient) after a 3-gear boosted run before stopping at the car wash.

My water/meth nozzle is after the IAT sensor.

Its a chilly 107°F here today.
I got in the car ans started it cold. The sCANalyzer said my IATs were 121°F and my coolant was 150°F by the time the starter motor stopped spinning!
Once I got moving, the IATs dropped to just above ambient and stayed there.
I drove 8 miles. The coolant got to 221°F and the IATs averaged 117°.
My intercooler inlet was 170° and the outlet was 107°F (ambient) after a 3-gear boosted run before stopping at the car wash.

My water/meth nozzle is after the IAT sensor.
My god you must be haveing the monsoons to get the temp that low. You can leave your jacket when you come here next week.

221F, holly crap batman :FIREdevil

221F, holly crap batman :FIREdevil

That's average. Most RX-8s around here will hit that under certain conditions.
I used to hit 230°F pretty regularly (before the aux rad).
Do a search. There are quite a few RX-8s out here that see 240°+ daily this time of year.
The highest freeze-frame I've hear of was just shy of 300°F, right before she blew.

Remember, we have no water in our air, so the rad does very little. Its all auto-regulation by the motor itself.
Typically, the coolant temp is the ambient times 2 plus 2° for each degree over 100°F ambient.

Its a chilly 107°F here today.
I got in the car ans started it cold. The sCANalyzer said my IATs were 121°F and my coolant was 150°F by the time the starter motor stopped spinning!
Once I got moving, the IATs dropped to just above ambient and stayed there.
I drove 8 miles. The coolant got to 221°F and the IATs averaged 117°.
My intercooler inlet was 170° and the outlet was 107°F (ambient) after a 3-gear boosted run before stopping at the car wash.

My water/meth nozzle is after the IAT sensor.

So your IATs are still averaging about 10 degrese above ambient when you're running hard? That's what I'm seeing down here too (with no meth). I've never had a problem with my intercooler heating up the charge, I ALWAYS get cooler temps at the AIT sensor than I get at the MAF, and even with this heat they're anywhere from 20-40 degrees cooler, and this includes driving in bad traffic (stop-and-go) etc.

Sounds like MM (and Arizona in general) needs a misting water spray nozzle in front of the radiator.....
Another product for Black Hills Racing?

Sounds like MM (and Arizona in general) needs a misting water spray nozzle in front of the radiator.....
Another product for Black Hills Racing?

As stated several times here and elsewhere, that doesn't work.

I've misted as much as a full gallon of water (all at once!) through the rad with no effect whatsoever.

Don't underestimate the volume of water that goes through a rad at speed in a place with 30% humidity.
You guys in FL (with your 75% - 100% humidity) pass dozens of gallons through your rad at speed.

As stated several times here and elsewhere, that doesn't work.

I've misted as much as a full gallon of water (all at once!) through the rad with no effect whatsoever.

Don't underestimate the volume of water that goes through a rad at speed in a place with 30% humidity.
You guys in FL (with your 75% - 100% humidity) pass dozens of gallons through your rad at speed.

Evap will cool; the question is how much water can you carry to spray your radiator. (the RX8 tow along tanker?)
On the plus side, if it catches on, the desert will turn green along the roads from all the water sprayed on radiators....

:)

Evap will cool; the question is how much water can you carry to spray your radiator. (the RX8 tow along tanker?)
On the plus side, if it catches on, the desert will turn green along the roads from all the water sprayed on radiators....

:)

Well, a gllon (at 7 pounds) did nothing.
I suspect that you could probably get that one-time effect with about 4 gallons of water (almost 30 pounds).
So, the question becomes - does it make sense to lug around 30 pounds of water to lower the coolant temperatures a single time?

Once again, scale, economics and physics render another suggestion moot.

special needs in mm's environment that is true. its damn harsh. most pro guys on track shut it down(cooling laps) if coolant gets to 235. even recips dont like those temps for long. ask the off road guys.
Jeff my iat is measured at the upper intake junction. the highest i have ever seen on the street is in the 130's without meth. course power that you can feel does go down some after about 120f or so.
the meth does bring more octane into the picture:) dont forget that.
yall ever measure the lower intake temps? wonder about front versus back rotor? it may surprise you.
currently i am looking into supplementing my cooling system. it is my 1st summer with fi. i am too close to the edge for me at 205 street(highest) to 225 on track at 90 ambient. stay tuned.
jeff and them may end up having to do some pretty significant work to get the temps under control,since the heat and low humidity is about as harsh as of an environment has you can dump on a rotory
you are going to need at least 3 cubic inches per hp cooling AND you are going to have to increase oil cooling capacity. look to the diesels for help?
olddrgger

the meth does bring more octane into the picture:) dont forget that.

Actually, no. Since the stoichiometric ratio for meth is double that of gasoline, its octane doesn't really contribute - especially at the ratios achieved by just injecting it with water at the rates that the injection system delivers.
The effective octane changes, but the water does that.
Remember - the meth (what little of it there is) is trying to speed up combustion. Its the water that is slowing it down.
Its the cooling effect that does much of the work, but the quench of water slowing the flame front is what prevents autoignition.

yall ever measure the lower intake temps? wonder about front versus back rotor? it may surprise you.

Yes. The lower intake will get damn hot in the OE configuration - on the outside.
A thermocouple lowered into the airstream (through the service port) shows little difference in the temp of the air going through there once it gets up to operating mass (above 80 g/sec or so). The heat of the LIM is only an issue at low-speed operation.
It is a pretty dense piece of aluminum and it acts like a heatsink for the engine block.
The rear rotor gets much warmer, but that is mostly due to the way coolant and oil flow through the motor.
That said, it still pays to sheild it (like everything else).

yes that lower intake is about 1/4 inch thick---everywhere. low speed is what will heat soak for sure. once the air velocity increases it doesnt have a chance to heat up. phenolic spacer is on the way i hear.
while it is true that water does boost octane--so does methanol. at a 50/50 blend we are injecting as much meth as water. On this i will have to disagree with you, thank God we are not tuning for max water meth gains.
oldragger

y
while it is true that water does boost octane--so does methanol. at a 50/50 blend we are injecting as much meth as water. On this i will have to disagree with you,


And, as I pointed out, you are not injecting enough meth to take advantage of its native octane in any appreciable way.
You would have to pump in twice as much meth as gasoline to get the octane advantage.
You are ONLY benefiting from the AKI effect of lower AITs, which can be greater with meth than water at those ratios.
You would still be better off richening-up the lambda target.
Its cheaper, will make more power and is more controllable and precise.

and give much less gas milage? what lambda whould you suggest for the s.c. setup?
OD

and give much less gas milage?


You care about gas mileage in boost?
So you are saying you would rather inject "x" quantity of $20 "boost juice" into a dry manifold instead of the same quantity of $5 gasoline directly into the intake ports?!?

what lambda whould you suggest for the s.c. setup?
OD

.97 at idle, 1.0 - 1.05 at light throttle cruise, .98 at anything more than cruise in vacuum, .91 at the threshold of boost (which is a moving target based on RPM/load, so your flash tuner better know the proper airflow rates) and .79 - .83 on load/boost.

i like to watch the little numbers move:)
OD

I have a cool running fi rx8
OD

Any word on what's happening when the supply of the Autorotor's dries up?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Any word on what's happening when the supply of the Autorotor's dries up?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Huh?
I did not know they were wet. :)
Is there an issue with Autorotor; are they doing the American bank thing? :rant:

I thought that was brought up earlier. Lysholm (the "new" owners of Autorotor at the time) discontinued it <Opcon was the parent company for both Lysholm and Autorotor, with the Lysholm units being marketed in the US under the Whipple brand, and the Autorotors used by Kenne Bell>. I recall there were 5 units left in the US, or something like that. Happy to stand corrected if need be.

Cheers,
Hymee.

I thought that was brought up earlier. Lysholm (the "new" owners of Autorotor at the time) discontinued it <Opcon was the parent company for both Lysholm and Autorotor, with the Lysholm units being marketed in the US under the Whipple brand, and the Autorotors used by Kenne Bell>. I recall there were 5 units left in the US, or something like that. Happy to stand corrected if need be.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Bummer, they might as well have done the bank thing....
Does this mean the end of your S/C designs?
Any thoughts on using a Lysholm?

A 12 to 14 PSI RX8 would be awesome.

Bummer, they might as well have done the bank thing....
Does this mean the end of your S/C designs?
Any thoughts on using a Lysholm?

A 12 to 14 PSI RX8 would be awesome.

Lysholm units are a little larger in displacement vs. the autorotor counterparts - like .1-.2 L. They also will have a little more parasitic drag and are equipped with different size bearings.

Kenne Bell claims the Autorotor has stronger bearings and was more robust. An engineer at Opcon told me the direct opposite and that Lysholm was the better unit. My .02, there's probably no appreciable difference in durability between the two.

Does this mean the end of your S/C designs?


Other way around. It means a production change for the Pettit system.

I thought this potential change was mentioned a few pages back already....?
BTW, BHR has made significant progress on that new blower drive design. Once I get settled in the new crib and we release a couple new products you Pettit lovers will have a new toy to consider. If the blower in the Pettit kit changes we may help with that, too.;)

I thought this potential change was mentioned a few pages back already....?
BTW, BHR has made significant progress on that new blower drive design. Once I get settled in the new crib and we release a couple new products you Pettit lovers will have a new toy to consider. If the blower in the Pettit kit changes we may help with that, too.;)

Hurry up and build it before Juan decides to build the parts himself. :lol2:

That's great news; Juan, Norman, and I actually talked about this yesterday at the dyno-meet in Kissimmee. It's safe to say that we're all very interested.

I'll be posting some vids/sheets of our dyno runs tonight. They put the three of us in a class by ourselves, and Juan walked away with the prize on his last pull (I was up until the very last pull). It was a whopping 101F in the dyno shop, so the numbers are a bit disappointing (283/271/262 for the three of us). The 30+ people standing in the entryway to the shop didn't do anything to help the temps. So Juan will have to wait until cooler days to beat that 297rwhp.

I thought this potential change was mentioned a few pages back already....?
BTW, BHR has made significant progress on that new blower drive design. Once I get settled in the new crib and we release a couple new products you Pettit lovers will have a new toy to consider. If the blower in the Pettit kit changes we may help with that, too.;)


Wait a minute:
A few posts back Autorotor was the company bought by Lysholm.
How does Autorotor being discontinued mean anything to Pettit,?

Pettit uses the Lysholm blower already.
(Or mine is Lysholm at least, I checked with Cam.)

Here is the PettitRacing web page on the compressor:
http://www.pettitracing.com/rx8/index_turbo.htm

Compressor:
Pettit chose the Lysholm compressor because it is one of the most efficient twin-screw compressors on the market today. Made by the Opcon Group in Sweden, the Lysholm’s advanced design provides a reduction in parasitic loss and charge temperature, which makes it more efficient than roots or centrifugal type units.

Was the previous post wrong: maybe it's Lysholm being bought by Autorotor?
I heard the only changes in Pettit was a new casting for the blower housing due to a model being discontinued; and that change was already designed for and working.

Which company is buying what?

Perhaps I am confusing a couple of different issues (it's not like I have never done THAT before!:lol2:) but I thought there was some design change or product change that had Pettit possibly changing blowers in future kits.

As for the pulleys; I got my unit prices from Gates, who WILL be the company who makes them, but I need to get a couple of other products rolled out so I have the start-up cap for 15-20 sets of these pulleys. Margins will be a little slimmer than what I had hoped but I really want to take care of you guys and see 300+ at the wheels.;)

my car is cool
pic for what it is worthhttp://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124534&stc=1&d=1217895453
small radiator.jpg
od

another http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124537&stc=1&d=1217895593
HPIM0038.JPG
hope yall can see them
olddragger

bigger pics, bigger pics...

Denny just learned to somewhat attach pics.........and now you want him to learn to resize before posting them? :eek:

I can't wait to see this result........better get mo bandwidth! :evil_laug

I know. he needs to learn to resize the other way, bigger not smaller... he has so many DIY projects that we all need to witness:D:

As far as I know, Opcon the Swedish engineering company bought Lysholm AND Autorotor. Those 2 companies were created from one (as one employee split away to found a rival...) and their products were VERY similar, although with a lot of arguing about "mine is best".

Opcon now own both of them and are rationalising the product line, meaning the current Lysholm model Pettit use will be discontinued but replaced by a nigh on identical other model.

Pettit have already been testing the new model and it seems it will be a perfect replacement.

resize them? Oh Hell----HOW do ya do that!! Only took me 2 yrs to learn how to do what i did,:)
OD

what software are you using ??? if its Photoshop I could walk you through it... you can probably download a ripped version of it if you ever wanted it...

go to the georgia rx8 club site under the diy thread --there is one there you can enlarge--i dont know how the hell i did it.
i just have a hp digital cam and download the pics then open them with the microsoft picture stuff and resize them. I havent ever messed with photoshop except once when trying to make my wife's hair curly(it didnt work well and she can hit pretty hard with that broom)
OD

:rollingla :rollingla dont mean to laugh but thats funny....

Ill try later my lunch hour is ova and I got some meetings to go to this afternoon....

Denny, all you did was okay up to the point of re-sizing. You don't need photoshop, most programs will let you resize...........and for the purposes of posting on this site, I found that 8x10 inches works out okay. You should be able to select inches or pixels at least on whatever program you use when attempting to resize. Some people put out absolutely huge ones, but it's not really needed.

For instance, this pic is roughly 8 x 10 inches(or 580 x 780 pixels).
It's a pic of an ex-girlfriends cat and seems to display okay for this site............even if embedded into the thread where you don't have to click on it.

It's a pic of an ex-girlfriends cat .

WTF good is that ? Pics of the ex girlfriend please .......

iv got some questions about this supercharger!

how much is it?
how long does it take to install,
is it tunned?
and how reliable is it?

im interested in getting one!

<<I am wrapping my entire body in Nomex as I type this>>

iv got some questions about this supercharger!

how much is it?
how long does it take to install,
is it tunned?
and how reliable is it?

im interested in getting one!Go to the Pettit website for your answers. :rant:

or read through the eniter thread everything you seek is there...

^^^lol....Jeff for being a dick sometimes, youve got a good sense of humor....

Denny, all you did was okay up to the point of re-sizing. You don't need photoshop, most programs will let you resize...........and for the purposes of posting on this site, I found that 8x10 inches works out okay. You should be able to select inches or pixels at least on whatever program you use when attempting to resize. Some people put out absolutely huge ones, but it's not really needed.

For instance, this pic is roughly 8 x 10 inches(or 580 x 780 pixels).
It's a pic of an ex-girlfriends cat and seems to display okay for this site............even if embedded into the thread where you don't have to click on it.

Your ex-girlfriend sure as a nice p... err cat :eyetwitch

Denny, Mazurfer is right an editing software will do, also another thing it may prompt you on is resolution ,,, most screen are set at 72 or 96dpi, 72 is fine for web based images... most the image i post are around 100o x 800 pixels... 800 x 600 is good too....most peoples screens are set at 1024x768...

wow.

^^^wow???:scratchhe

iv got some questions about this supercharger!

how much is it?
<www.pettitracing.com>

how long does it take to install,
Orlando to West Palm Florida is about two hours drive.
I was a special case,(right time and place) Pettit was able to complete mine in two days. Do not count on the two day installation to happen.

is it tunned?
Pettit Racing has a flash for the stock ECU, or the Interceptor-X

and how reliable is it?

I have over 15K on mine as of today, I drive mine to work daily.
Only time the car ever failed was when I changed the Ignition from the stock hardware (as installed by Pettit) one of the aftermarket coils I had installed, died on my way home from work the next day. I replaced the stock system as Pettit had configured it, everything was happy again.


im interested in getting one!
Sweet forced induction package. I feel it is a very mild tune, but they knew when they set it up that I drive mine daily.
A blower just feels like it is a larger engine, not at all like with a turbo where the boost "comes on".

PS: Jeff? Nomex got your tongue?

not at all like with a turbo where the boost "comes on".

ps... this is why we have boost controllers

back to regularly scheduled programming

ok i will try http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124561&stc=1&d=1217984799
HPIM0036.JPG

olddragger

Hot diggity damn! It worked!
OD

one more---so excited----http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124563&stc=1&d=1217985100
HPIM0037.JPG


too much excitement for one night --have to go watch and participate in mma social
OD

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124561&d=1217984787


i see what you did there.... whats to the right of the radiator, the tube??

damn!!!! Maybe this worked---D

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124565&stc=1&d=1217985445
HPIM0038.JPG

a throw up tube---na ---just a little cold air tube to help cool the coils.--i didnt have it secured yet.
od

ah, cool.. i like throw up tubes :) they taste yummy, especially when its milk throw up tubes :) lol

nice work Denny,,,, hmm your coils(Mazport) get that hot that you need CA for them? hhhmmm must consider this when installing mine. :scratchhe :yesnod: :scratchhe

PS: Jeff? Nomex got your tongue?

I don't get it.:squint:

one more---so excited----http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=124563&stc=1&d=1217985100
HPIM0037.JPG


too much excitement for one night --have to go watch and participate in mma social
OD

Better put your RB screens back in OD .Somewhere out there is a stone with your name on it ....

Didn't want to overload him with "resolution" yet, let's get him posting pics with the approx right size first............then we can move on to resolution. Anyway.......I always take my shots at the highest resolution possible, then I will scale back from there depending on what I am going to use them for.......web, etc. but I always retain the original in the highest resolution possible.

correctamundo.. waiting with eager anticipation

I've been expecting to hear from Munche 187 and realized that I haven't even seen a post from him lately. He was supposed to come to Vegas. I must have pissed him off somehow (easy for me)or maybe he did not come after-all.:squint: :uhh: Has anyone heard from him?

Just FYI from a good friend of mine's NA RX8 and the one responsible for purchasing my RX8 after years of hesitation. Also, see what a “Professional” AP tuner can accomplish. :eyetwitch

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=153312

Just FYI from a good friend of mine's NA RX8 and the one responsible for purchasing my RX8 after years of hesitation. Also, see what a “Professional” AP tuner can accomplish. :eyetwitch

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=153312

Wow...

I've been expecting to hear from Munche 187 and realized that I haven't even seen a post from him lately. He was supposed to come to Vegas. I must have pissed him off somehow (easy for me)or maybe he did not come after-all.:squint: :uhh: Has anyone heard from him?

I'm not sure if he actually went to Vegas or not, but last I talked to him he was extremely busy.

so heres the deal.. turbos are far to common superchargers sound cooler and are rare..

Anyway whats the final price of these kits I saw one for sale for $5549.

Is that it?

so heres the deal.. turbos are far to common superchargers sound cooler and are rare..

Anyway whats the final price of these kits I saw one for sale for $5549.

Is that it?

The best thing to do is go to www.pettitracing.com, send them an email, and see what kind of deal they have to offer you. Nice sig btw.

I'm not sure if he actually went to Vegas or not, but last I talked to him he was extremely busy.
Ok, he might not have come to Vegas.

The best thing to do is go to www.pettitracing.com, send them an email, and see what kind of deal they have to offer you. Nice sig btw.

Thanks man! Long live the supercharged 8!

It has come to my attention that MM and I did not understand each other on IAT readings. My Intake Air Temp readings are from the (boost) side of the intake manifold, not from the MAF, this may explain some strange readings on both of our parts.

My IAT gauge is screwed into the Pettit upper intake manifold, and yes, I do get below ambient readings of the boosted intake charge when running methanol.

There are 3 types of people in this world

Dead people, Living people, And those who drive rotary's.


Revident Evil?
Night of the rev'n dead?

Just FYI from a good friend of mine's NA RX8 and the one responsible for purchasing my RX8 after years of hesitation. Also, see what a “Professional” AP tuner can accomplish. :eyetwitch

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=153312

Yeah, that's an excellent example of what the AP can do with a strong car.
With intake, ignition and exhaust (and hands-on tuning), we're starting to see cars break the 210 line regularly.
With a fresh motor and a header, I've been pulling cars into the 220s lately.

It has come to my attention that MM and I did not understand each other on IAT readings. My Intake Air Temp readings are from the (boost) side of the intake manifold, not from the MAF, this may explain some strange readings on both of our parts.

My IAT gauge is screwed into the Pettit upper intake manifold, and yes, I do get below ambient readings of the boosted intake charge when running methanol.

Which convo are you clearing up, because I don't remember.

EDIT - Never mind. Its back a page.

How are the readings strange? I told you what was going on. You just "discovered" where your IAT sensor is?
That was my whole point - that the air coming down the pike from the turbo is already cool before the water/meth.

i have found a way to be able to use a barrel type 180F thermostat. Works well and with the other cooling mods i have done--the car is MUCH cooler now---much. A good faith guesstimate would be in the 20F degrees range. It does take a little longer to warm up--but not much. I have not been able to go on track with this set up yet and it will be a while before I will. I have to save some mula to buy some 275/40/18 r compunds to go on my newly aquired 18 x 9.5 x 18 RPF 1's!!! Now I can finally get enough rubber on the road to match the power increase.
If anyone is interested in the thermostat thing then just PM me.
olddragger

Just post it.

My intercooler reservoir is bigger than yours….ha! :lol2:

Purchase a Snow Performance 3 quarts reservoir and two nylon 5/8 L shape fittings from Home Depot. Drill top right corner of bottle and enlarge bottom hole of bottle in order to fit the nylon fitting. Super glue the fittings to hold in place and later spread some Goop to seal the fitting to the bottle. Optional: Purchase thin insulation tape from Home Depot and cover the outside of the bottle with it. Hold the insulation with aluminum tape. You will also have to change the bottom 90-degree hose for a longer one. See picture to compare. I use the same four bolts (same bolt pattern) I had with my old bottle to hold in place instead of plastic straps for a better hold and looks. The new bottle bottom output hole eliminates the possibilities of fluid circulation due to lower fitting of the pump in relation to the fluid level in the reservoir.

Also, I’m using a 25/75 methanol/water mixture this time and will report my findings later. I just got done with the mod and temps are in the 70s due to rainy conditions in the area. :eyetwitch

Two more pixs. :eyetwitch

Nice work man, can't wait to that bottle comes in. I'm doing that this weekend.

Which convo are you clearing up, because I don't remember.

EDIT - Never mind. Its back a page.

How are the readings strange? I told you what was going on. You just "discovered" where your IAT sensor is?
That was my whole point - that the air coming down the pike from the turbo is already cool before the water/meth.


No, I just discovered you were reading the MAF, not a calibrated gauge.

No, I just discovered you were reading the MAF, not a calibrated gauge.

What?

Great work Juan.
Do yall think we may need to move the resorvoir out of the engine bay?
As soon as a am through with this thermostat thing, i will be looking at that.
I didnt think about the snow bottle---great idea!
Is this pump we have more of a pusher or is it a puller?
olddragger

Great work Juan.
Do yall think we may need to move the resorvoir out of the engine bay?
As soon as a am through with this thermostat thing, i will be looking at that.
I didnt think about the snow bottle---great idea!
Is this pump we have more of a pusher or is it a puller?
olddragger

It's a pusher, otherwise the reservoir could not have an air space.
PS: Any word on the thermostat change?

Do yall think we may need to move the resorvoir out of the engine bay?

I thought about doing that but I’m too lazy to reroute hoses and current setup configuration. This reservoir setup change took less than an hour to make and install (not counting the time for the Goop to dry). :eyetwitch

Ok guys I just posted how to do a 180F(or 160 IF YOU WANT) on my thermostat thread. it is worth the little work that has to be done.
OD

Good stuff OD!

Here's a link for you folks too lazy to search:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=153806

Why is always the Petit thread that get locked when its all the SC haters that shit all over the thread... I m not sure what the appropiate action would be but its pretty shitty that its the SC threads that get locked because the Turbo boys cant be civil. That doesnt mean that objective criticism isnt welcome but all the shitting needs to stop..... It would be nice to actually talk and learn from Bastage's Dyno thread and not get to the bottom of the page and see the locked logo...:icon_no2:

never fails to amaze me how home depot has been a good friend to our cars in time of pressed inventors like us!!they have what we need and show us the way!i'm out of warrenty and ready for my supercharger now!

The thread crapping results in the threads being deleted.

If a thread is closed, it can't be deleted, therefore the info remains - so which is better, deleted or closed?

There is a proposal flying around in moderator discussions, that perhaps vendors of 'other systems' not be allowed to participate in threads, in a vendors own forum - it usually leads to the predictable pissing match.


S

The thread crapping results in the threads being deleted.

If a thread is closed, it can't be deleted, therefore the info remains - so which is better, deleted or closed?

There is a proposal flying around in moderator discussions, that perhaps vendors of 'other systems' not be allowed to participate in threads, in a vendors own forum - it usually leads to the predictable pissing match.


S

True, but since I have read all of the Petit threads its pretty evident that the problem comes and goes,, Im not pointin fingers cause its pretty evident that its a select few causing the mess, but they do contribute to some constructive discussion when no ones trying to prove how big their interweb wang is,,,
But action against those people needs to be thought about, not the thread, and we all know that banning is only a temp solution. It really does suck though big time...

The thread crapping results in the threads being deleted.

If a thread is closed, it can't be deleted, therefore the info remains - so which is better, deleted or closed?

There is a proposal flying around in moderator discussions, that perhaps vendors of 'other systems' not be allowed to participate in threads, in a vendors own forum - it usually leads to the predictable pissing match.


S

I like this idea very much.

I think that anyone that is an "advocate" of any particular system take a step back, divest themselves of any particular bias they might have against any particular forum member, and look at what is being said and done and why.

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that there aren't people in the turbo threads calling for the "banning" of any supercharger owners?

There is a distinct, visceral fear amongst some of the SC people about having any sort of fact-based discussion about anything that might contravene their purchasing decisions.

There is BS in every forum and in every FI thread, but it is consistently, time and time again that whenever ANY sort of question is raised against data, the reactions are completely and politically predictable.

Question the TC people and you get a wall of data, charts, diagrams and logs.
Do the same with the SC people and you immediately get a flurry of ad hominem attacks and questioning of motives.

Motives do not matter. Ever.

You can say what you want about my motives - it has no bearing on the conversation and is just a red herring. I don't care if you think I'm deliberately biased against superchargers (I'm not) or Pettit (I'm not, but I can certainly see how one would believe so, based on the incredibly long, uphill battle that has been waged against the crap that was the original kit).
You have the same responsibility to look at the data, regardless of the source.

It is pretty clear that I level the same criticisms against ANY system that makes claims that are spurious or is delivered with questionable parts or engineering.
It doesn't matter if its belt or exhaust driven.
I have a pretty long history here of calling a spade a spade.
And I feel it is, to some degree, my responsibility to remain consistent in this action because, time and time again, people will come back and try to pull a fast one and obscure the past advances into the BS by restating the same old crap that they asserted weeks, months and years before.

There are new faces, day after day and they don't always have the diligence to find the truth in all the nonsense. They should be expected to take everything with a grain of salt, but it is difficult if the wool is constantly being pulled over their eyes; not only here but in the marketing/magazine assault they are constantly under.

You can do what you want - certainly retreating into a fascist, fanbois stupor will do much for your ego. Go ahead - close ranks. It'll be easier to work that reach-around.
But everyone would be better served by ignoring what you think about the messenger and start debating the message.

Charles R Hill and Hymee and Jeff 50% of the time...do contribute wonderful info though,,, maybe give 'permission' and 'blocks' to the vendors so they can dictate to certain competitors and vendors, instead of an all out block form the mods...

True MM but in this particular case, even though you do contribute a significant amount of unbiased info, there are definately tension between some at the Petit R&D group and yourself that rarely goes in any direction but into nonsensicle pissing fits, and its those post that get the threads locked... I dont think anyone really has a personal problem with you just what happens to the thread when all the ingredients spell disaster,,, its the thread and other whom want to learn and make choices about which FI decission to make that suffer in the long run...

Don't shoot the messenger then :)

stealth: that's a horrible idea for all involved. I for one hope it doesn't happen.

Precisely.
It is ABUNDANTLY clear that I am NEVER the first person to start calling people names or questioning their motives.
In, fact, I don't question people's motives at all. I assume that everyone comes from their own direction.
And as far as name calling goes, I prefer to use people's own words against them rather than simply insult them from my own pocket of goodies.
Bastage is a poopy-peepee, though. lol

There are individuals that simply can't keep it in their pants.

I only care about data.

It's sad that if a vendor comes on here and sells a product, it usually gets battered and bruised, worse than if they ignored us and just sold to Joe Public.

Look through any magazine that writes about rotaries - there are dozens of shops and tuners I've never heard of. But if they come here and advertise, we rip 'em a new one and flush 'em....

I remember (Chuck?) RotaryExtreme and the abuse they took, back in the day. Goodbye Chuck......

Support should be a two-way street, not a permit to air every UPS problem or "...you didn't reply to last night's e-mail" bitch fest, or pissing match.

.....rant over..........S

I think that anyone that is an "advocate" of any particular system take a step back, divest themselves of any particular bias they might have against any particular forum member, and look at what is being said and done and why.

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that there aren't people in the turbo threads calling for the "banning" of any supercharger owners?


Very interesting indeed, but not when you realize that Pettit owners don't go crapping in those threads. They could care less what kit you buy, because they're not trying to sell you one.


There is a distinct, visceral fear amongst some of the SC people about having any sort of fact-based discussion about anything that might contravene their purchasing decisions.


If there were facts involved, there wouldn't be any problems. Unfortunately all you provide is opinion, or made-up bs. Even if you started giving facts, at this point I personally wouldn't care, you've dug yourself too deep of a hole.


There is BS in every forum and in every FI thread, but it is consistently, time and time again that whenever ANY sort of question is raised against data, the reactions are completely and politically predictable.


Right, just like when Brettus tried to figure out why his third gear seemed taller than everyone elses, you sure did a good job of looking at the "data" there too. No you immediately assumed you were correct and proceeded in trying to bash/belittle him.

Face it, your approach to this whole thing sucks, and I feel sorry for you.


Question the TC people and you get a wall of data, charts, diagrams and logs.
Do the same with the SC people and you immediately get a flurry of ad hominem attacks and questioning of motives.


I disagree, where are the logs, charts, and diagrams of your kit? I've only seen one dyno. I also asked how you came to the 20% hp increase number with w/m injection (without tuning for it) on at least 3 occasions, but you selectively ignored it. There's no way your car is making 20% more hp with just W/M and no tuning.

Motives do not matter. Ever.


Says the guy with the perfect motive.


You can say what you want about my motives - it has no bearing on the conversation and is just a red herring. I don't care if you think I'm deliberately biased against superchargers (I'm not) or Pettit (I'm not, but I can certainly see how one would believe so, based on the incredibly long, uphill battle that has been waged against the crap that was the original kit).
You have the same responsibility to look at the data, regardless of the source.


So you have nothing against Pettit, but you constantly bash their product instead of providing constructive comments. Aren't those states mutually exclusive? I once pointed out your lack of constructivity, and you quickly claimed it was because you wanted Pettit to fail because it's good for business, and that you wouldn't be able to make a "small fortune" if "they somehow got their act together." Talk about using someone's own words against them... I can post where you said this again if you like.


It is pretty clear that I level the same criticisms against ANY system that makes claims that are spurious or is delivered with questionable parts or engineering.
It doesn't matter if its belt or exhaust driven.
I have a pretty long history here of calling a spade a spade.
And I feel it is, to some degree, my responsibility to remain consistent in this action because, time and time again, people will come back and try to pull a fast one and obscure the past advances into the BS by restating the same old crap that they asserted weeks, months and years before.


All you've said here is BS and has no relevance to this discussion. You're a vendor on this forum, making non-constructive BS comments about another vendor's products. Remember when you called out Pettit for falsifying dynos. I've shown you 5 dynos that all fall within the range that they claim, yet I have yet to see you backtrack from your baseless accusation.


There are new faces, day after day and they don't always have the diligence to find the truth in all the nonsense. They should be expected to take everything with a grain of salt, but it is difficult if the wool is constantly being pulled over their eyes; not only here but in the marketing/magazine assault they are constantly under.

You can do what you want - certainly retreating into a fascist, fanbois stupor will do much for your ego. Go ahead - close ranks. It'll be easier to work that reach-around.
But everyone would be better served by ignoring what you think about the messenger and start debating the message.

Ahh so you're trying to paint yourself as a hero now. Talk about ego! Good grief! Where's the truth in your "dyno comparison" thread? There's nothing in that thread that proves to me that there is any real objective comparison going on. You have a bunch of lines drawn on one sheet. Each of those lines could have been generated at different temperatures/elevations, with different modifications. Coincidentally the guy who takes ownership of said dyno comparison sheet also sells the product that produces the best curve.

What I was trying to provide was a collection of somewhat objective data, so people could see what this kit is really capable of. I guess you couldn't handle that and you and your "fanbois" had to crap all over it.

You're wrong Jeff; plain and simple. I think sometimes people are too afraid of your e-posse and your impressive vocabulary to tell you this, but you are totally and completely wrong.

That said, let's not let this thread spiral into crap also, if you want to debate me via PM, feel free.

^^ I'm not going to click on the "view post" for that, but I assume its the usual bile about how I don't provide data, I don't offer solutions or I don't have anything constructive to say or how I am trying to sell something.
If you want to go head to head with me, you are not going to do it by ignoring things selectively.
Save it for your fan club.
Oh. You don't have one.
Sorry.

^^ I'm not going to click on the "view post" for that, but I assume its the usual bile about how I don't provide data, I don't offer solutions or I don't have anything constructive to say or how I am trying to sell something.
If you want to go head to head with me, you are not going to do it by ignoring things selectively.
Save it for your fan club.
Oh. You don't have one.
Sorry.

I'm pretty sure I responded to your entire post, and everyone else will see that.

I don't care to have a fan club, and if I did it certainly wouldn't be on a car club forum. Enjoy yours while it lasts. Based on some observations of recent developments, fanbois do not always stay loyal.

You know, I will give you some credit. You're probably the best RX-8 tuner that lives on this forum. Too bad the really good ones have better things to do than troll around this site all day and bash anyone selling a competing product.



As far as bias goes - why would I be biased against Pettit?
I'm making a small fortune on them. If they suddenly got their act together, I wouldn't be in such a position.
Just think about that before you fly off the handle again.


For those of you who don't know, the context of this quote is in response to why he can't be more constructive and actually provide solutions to any of his perceived problems with the kit, instead of just bashing it all the time.

Now there's a man with integrity. It's total bullshit BTW, because he's gotten his hands on maybe two Pettit supercharged cars.

The thread crapping results in the threads being deleted.

If a thread is closed, it can't be deleted, therefore the info remains - so which is better, deleted or closed?

There is a proposal flying around in moderator discussions, that perhaps vendors of 'other systems' not be allowed to participate in threads, in a vendors own forum - it usually leads to the predictable pissing match.


S
I would hope that the proposal flying around with the mods is dropped. Censorship sounds good to a few but is not beneficial to the group. If you "ban" one guy or group of people, where does it stop? I happen to be good friends with one under consideration and friendly with those on the opposing side. Do I get banned because I associate with him or them? I read the whole argument and do a little investigation into both sides and make my own decision.

From a vendor side I see my name in constant view of the general forum. Yes some things may look detrimental to my product but there are also other views on that forum that support my product.

Unfortunately it seems to get personal and that, once started, is next to impossible to stop. The actual disagreement gets lost in the verbal BS that goes back and forth.

There is a proposal flying around in moderator discussions, that perhaps vendors of 'other systems' not be allowed to participate in threads, in a vendors own forum - it usually leads to the predictable pissing match.


S

How about we vendors be allowed to participate in the discussion thereof with the moderators? I know I have never been invited......... I also know that I have no problem with a fellow vendor coming into my threads and challenging me on any aspect of my particular product.:dunno: The, again, I am a Rand Objectivist who prefers a free market.;) The irony here is that what happens behind-the-scenes between we vendors is almost never discussed on this forum.

there are places on the forum that provide for the disscussion of vendors products other than the vendors own thread. I can see the point that is being made.
Personally I have no problem with what anyone posts--its an internet forum for Christ sake--very helpful on many occasisions, but it certainly hasnt hurt me personnally, but there again i am not in business.
Hmmmmm--- the world is to damn complicated.
olddragger

Post vendor specific threads within the vendor's forums. That way the vendor's can delete posts as needed. No mess, no fuss.

I believe vendor sub forums are essentially purchased space. At that point, then, vendors should have as much control over their own sub forum as can be given. There is a cost/benefit to posting in the vendor forums as opposed to the aftermarket forums. The aftermarket forums tend to see more eyes and get more traffic while the vendor forums would give you more control as to what thoughts and criticisms are attached to your product. The vendor forums are paid advertising.

I believe vendor sub forums are essentially purchased space. At that point, then, vendors should have as much control over their own sub forum as can be given.

They are.
They do.
And it is VERY expensive.

If it is purchased space then my arguement is not valid as the Vendor shold have control over his purchased space. Not being a forum vendor I was not aware that those areas are purchase. I was under the under impression that if you paid your vendor fees then you were given a space for your products use. How in hell would you police the paid threads? It would seem that if the Vendor is paying for it then he needs to police it. Boy I see a can of worms there.

We could do a "vote off the island" deal with comments themselves.
If too many people mark a comment as "trollin" it is automatically removed.

This should require a high enough number of users marking a troll comment to prevent blocks of voters from ganging up on individuals, and also be limited to long term forum users to prevent someone from making new logins just to vote.
This way, we don't even ban the user, but wipe some comments.

It should also not eliminate debate of facts.

Is this a good compromise?
Anyone have better ideas?
Is this idea totally batshot?

You know exactly how that is going to go:

Q) The data in set "A" is not acceptable under ISO and SAE standards, therefore it is not acceptable.
1) You are a biased a**hole.
2) Yeah he's a hater!
3) He's just a wannabe trying to sell a competing product!
4) He never has anything constructive to say!
5) YEAH! Lets vote him out!
Q)?

Trying to install a rationalized process on irrational people is not going to yield a useful result one way or another.
Either decide to close ranks and put your fingers in your ears or just stop reading the posts that "offend" you.

Either decide to close ranks and put your fingers in your ears or just stop reading the posts that "offend" you.

The idea is to stop false accusations, both of a comment being a troll and of dislike of a product to color your responses.
Many issues dealt with and ideas invented by Pettit are applicable to turbocharged cars, Pettit actually made their name with turbochargers; also many ideas and inventions by turbo owners can benefit supercharged systems.
We have had numerous discussions on what is the best liquid to air intercooler fluid, series vs parallel plumbing of heat exchanges, not to mention the stuff that works for N/A heat issues too.

The occasional pissing match between T/C vs S/C is nothing compared to what we can bitch about with Air to Air vs Water to Air intercoolers....

We could always debate which end of a boiled egg to break first. (everyone knows it IS the larger end)

Personal attacks are just wrong though.

The idea is to stop false accusations, both of a comment being a troll and of dislike of a product to color your responses.


The problem is that every time any question is raised by a "hater", the accusation of bias is immediately used to eclipse the validity of the question.

I can only speak for myself on this, but the endless and baseless accusation of "disliking" a product is endemic to these supercharger discussions.
Why isn't it so in the 1/2 dozen turbo system threads?
Lots of arguing, but no one throwing around "bias" as an argument.


Personal attacks are just wrong though.

But it is the favorite method of quite a few people that have appointed themselves the guardians of the gate.
I know - and I'm sure you do as well - that as soon as an ad hominem attack is made, the argument is lost.

Why isn't it so in the 1/2 dozen turbo system threads?
Lots of arguing, but no one throwing around "bias" as an argument.


Maybe because some are too busy here in the Pettit thread?


But it is the favorite method of quite a few people that have appointed themselves the guardians of the gate.
I know - and I'm sure you do as well - that as soon as an ad hominem attack is made, the argument is lost.

Perhaps if the Pettit thread "just went away" huh; then what would be the next product that needs to "go away"?
I guess some feel that there is really only room for one forced induction package?

My reason for going S/C has to do with long standing personal preference, (Though the liquid to air I/Cs did help) :lol:
I really doubt any internet argument would have changed my mind, but there are possibly some who feel if they can change future customer's desires with negative feedback.

Why is it all you assholes want to argue but Cam and I have absolutely NO issues with one another? If the "leaders" of the two perceived "camps" aren't fighting why the Hell are all of you? And there is plenty of blame to go around for all of you so STFU, MEOW!!

I love all you guys like brothers but you're acting like idiots.........

+1..........where is the yawning "You're boring me, and I so sick of this shit" emoticon? :dunno:
Can we get one made please? :)
We could use that a lot around here, and not just in this thread.

True MM but in this particular case, even though you do contribute a significant amount of unbiased info, there are definately tension between some at the Petit R&D group and yourself that rarely goes in any direction but into nonsensicle pissing fits, and its those post that get the threads locked... I dont think anyone really has a personal problem with you just what happens to the thread when all the ingredients spell disaster,,, its the thread and other whom want to learn and make choices about which FI decission to make that suffer in the long run...


I'm not sure I'd ever make the assumption that Jeff (MM) is capable of "unbiased" information. The tone of his posts make a fine art of walking the line between abrasive and abusive for no apparent reason at all. His type of bias is not the over type, but very subtle. You have to ask why a tuner who runs a turbo essentially spends all day (add up the number of posts he makes in this and other forurms) sticking his face in a thread devoted to an excellent supercharger kit.

Make no mistake, Jeff has an ego bigger than all outdoors. He seems to have some tuning chops; too bad his asshole attitude detracts from his presencel. In a lot of ways, Jeff's presence here is a lot like deleting vs. locking threads; his ego forces him to leave some good information; you just have to shrug your shoulders and realize its being offered up by an asshole.

But again, I wouldn't want him at my back.

Jeff's biases are not hidden and he'll tell you exactly what they are based on, if you simply ask him. That 's what independent thinkning is supposed to be about. After that, you can disagree all you want on the merits of his, and anybody esle's biases. I run into this same issue when I decide to seriously debate somebody. Jeff and I really are not all that different, I am just nicer about it.

Maybe because some are too busy here in the Pettit thread?

Still ignoring data, even in that context?
No. Obviously I'm even more invested in the Esmiril/GReddy/PTP/SFR threads.


Perhaps if the Pettit thread "just went away" huh; then what would be the next product that needs to "go away"?

The whole point isn't to make the product "go away". We want to make it as fast, powerful, reliable, predictable and consistent as possible.
If you can't see that my goal is ALWAYS to improve a device, then you really are just sticking your fingers in your ears.

Time and time again, my criticisms are aimed and getting a solution. And, when the manufacturer won't pick up the slack, I try to get other people to take the initiative.
Failing that, I do it myself.

When the DNA wasn't right, what were my suggestions? How about the SFR?
I've got entire threads dedicated to the GReddy. Do I own a GReddy kit? No.
So, am I a hater?
Just read that thread and see what I said about them and their "solutions".
The difference is, there are no GReddy fanbois to call me a hater.
Look at the Esmeril thread. Obviously, I'm a hater. That's why I spent hours with Louie trying to get his system to work. And even more hours trying to get to the bottom of the parts selection and WG routing.
I must be a turbo hater, too.

I have no argument with Cam. Why would I?
When I went about pointing out the big problems the Pettit system had, Moon and the fanbois went apesh*t instead of addressing the problem.
Then, they did eventually. Why that reaction first?
I doubt when I pointed out that ZIP-tying the MAF to the MC that the reaction from Cam was "Oh, he's a hater!".
What was GReddy's response when I pointed out how FUBAR the injector scheme was for the E-Manage?
They changed it.
I didn't see a single person complain that I was hating on GReddy.

When people question my choice of turbo or whatever, is my first reaction (or that of the MazdaManiac fanbois club) to call people out as haters?
No.
You get a constant, unrelenting stream of data.

Obviously, my personal tactic - being brusque - is designed to bring the worst out in people.
It makes my job easier by separating the wheat from the chaff.
If you are smart/cunning you will not get lured in by my tactics and see the quality of the question, not the abrasiveness of the words.
If what I say makes you angry, take a step back and realize you are being played.

Trying to install a rationalized process on irrational people is not going to yield a useful result one way or another.

Yeah... that's how Bush got elected. Twice.

Obviously, my personal tactic - being brusque - is designed to bring the worst out in people.
It makes my job easier by separating the wheat from the chaff.
If you are smart/cunning you will not get lured in by my tactics and see the quality of the question, not the abrasiveness of the words.


THIS is the key to our friendship and why BHR has guys like MM and Easy_E1 on the team.:)

All I see is a bunch of insecure people crying because there product is being challenged. If it's that good why can people find flaws in it. And if there are flaws and someone points them out,,, wouldn't you thank them, fix them and make the CUSTOMER happy?
Or would you just cry like a little kid and say "Mommy,,,,, He's picking on me".

Good God grow up!

Uh-oh, Easy has had a coupla Cap'n + Kahluas!

Obviously, my personal tactic - being brusque - is designed to bring the worst out in people.
It makes my job easier by separating the wheat from the chaff.
If you are smart/cunning you will not get lured in by my tactics and see the quality of the question, not the abrasiveness of the words.
If what I say makes you angry, take a step back and realize you are being played.

heh - yeh , I figured that out a while back . Yet you still manage to p*ss me off ...
good job

Brettus: stop allowing yourself to be pissed off. I am a true believer in that philosophy but that's a tale for another day.

Uh-oh, Easy has had a coupla Cap'n + Kahluas!

Nope ran out of both. Time to go to the store.:banghead:

Brettus: stop allowing yourself to be pissed off. I am a true believer in that philosophy but that's a tale for another day.

I know this is true - but if you 100% believe in what you are saying and someone who has a lot of credibility ridicules you without even coming up with a reasonable argument themselves.... it is natural to be a tad miffed - yes ?

yes, it is reasonable to be miffed but it is in THAT moment that you make a choice whether you are going to allow yourself to be miffed and act out or whether you brush off what has been said. The choice though not an easy one, is still a choice.

:)

a good teacher you are - young Jedi

I know this is true - but if you 100% believe in what you are saying and someone who has a lot of credibility ridicules you without even coming up with a reasonable argument themselves.... it is natural to be a tad miffed - yes ?

No, you're supposed to just take it like a man.

He's the rubber and you're glue. No one can ever question him or turn his insults against him. He's too sensitive for that.

In the meantime, no one has proven that SAE correction added 20 hp to Miron's dyno plot. I asked that this be proven to me, but all I got was flames.

Personally I think it's going to be more like +/- a few hp, but MM seems to like to pull the number 20 out whenever he gets questioned (like the untuned 20% hp gain with his w/m injection kit for a whopping total of 380 hp at 9psi).

Besides that statement not making any sense on its own from a semantic standpoint, how would my "sensitivity" preclude your ability to make an argument?

[quote=Bastage;2606522]In the meantime, no one has proven that SAE correction added 20 hp to Miron's dyno plot.

Only you have to prove anything since you are making the assertion that the dyno is valid with the SAE correction on, despite specific rules from the SAE saying that it isn't. Are you challenging the SAE now?
Just turn the SAE correction off like everyone else engaged in the discussion and see where the chips fall.

If you are going to call the entire dyno comparison thread a lie just because of who is producing the graph, then you have no grounds to make claims with dynos either.
You can't have it both ways.

Besides that statement not making any sense on its own from a semantic standpoint, how would my "sensitivity" preclude your ability to make an argument?



Only you have to prove anything since you are making the assertion that the dyno is valid with the SAE correction on, despite specific rules from the SAE saying that it isn't. Are you challenging the SAE now?
Just turn the SAE correction off like everyone else engaged in the discussion and see where the chips fall.

If you are going to call the entire dyno comparison thread a lie just because of who is producing the graph, then you have no grounds to make claims with dynos either.
You can't have it both ways.

I guess sarcasm detection must be turned off in your browser. I was just trying to point out how it seems you're the only one that is allowed to be insulting, when anyone tries to fire back, you and your e-posse jump on them and cry foul.

I never made an assertion of the sort, stop manufacturing assertions. You guys were the ones that claimed it was 20 hp too high, and I asked you to prove it. I've already asked the source of the sheet for a dyno file, have not heard back from him yet.

And once again you're ignoring my question on how you're making 380 whp at 9psi with W/M injection without tuning for it. Dodge away.

OK so I see we are all going to have to get together and have a Dyno Day. Everybody dyno what you bring. Highest HP wins. Then maybe some mouths will shut.

OK so I see we are all going to have to get together and have a Dyno Day. Everybody dyno what you bring. Highest HP wins. Then maybe some mouths will shut.

We had a dyno day that was heavily advertised on this site (happened 3 weeks ago in Kissimmee, FL) and other local rotary community sites. Not a single turbo RX-8 showed up, but 3 supercharged 8s did.

The argument here isn't that we think our HP numbers are better than anyone's, so a dyno competition would prove squat. The argument here is that some folks are just unnecessarily belligerent and continue to try to cast doubt on the numbers claimed by Pettit (270-300 rwhp). It's basically an attempt to discredit something that we know to be true, and it's insanely annoying, especially when he has his mob come in and join in on his fun. He knows it's true, we know it's true, but just by him questioning it, it casts doubts, and that's his business model (cast doubt on all other FI solutions, so people will buy his). Once I get the dyno file from Miron we'll see how silly MM and the MM-Mafia were being. 20 whp too high? We shall see...

I still would like to know why thinks he's making 20% more hp with w/m injection without tuning for it (that's 380 whp at 9 psi, btw).

OK so I see we are all going to have to get together and have a Dyno Day. Everybody dyno what you bring. Highest HP wins. Then maybe some mouths will shut.

We did save you a parking space....

And once again you're ignoring my question on how you're making 380 whp at 9psi with W/M injection without tuning for it. Dodge away.

There is no dodge.
I've already explained it elsewhere.
I'm not repeating it again just for you.
Read how water/meth works and come back with a new question.
Really, if you follow the S/C thread, you do see a general lack of understanding what W/M is for. Its not to cool the hardware, which is the way most guys seem to be using it.

So everyone else has to back up their claims with data but you just have to say it is so and we should all believe you - classic

So everyone else has to back up their claims with data but you just have to say it is so and we should all believe you - classic

Nope. I back up ALL my claims.
I post charts. I post dynos. I have entire threads dedicated to math.
You want me to spoon feed you?
I've already explained thee times in three separate threads how water/meth works.
Try Google.

Wow another Pettit thread being dumped on..

not being dumped on. People just taking things personally

Nope. I back up ALL my claims.
I post charts. I post dynos. I have entire threads dedicated to math.
You want me to spoon feed you?
I've already explained thee times in three separate threads how water/meth works.
Try Google.
Totally dodging.

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040614/040614_stiller_hmed_1p.hmedium.jpg

You regurgitated some information you've read on various w/m injection websites, but none of that explains how you're getting a 20% hp increase using w/m injection without tuning for it.

~380 whp at 9psi with w/m injection
:bsmeter:

ok, Miron sent me the file. It didn't seem to change anything:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc7/bastage_2005/JeffIsADumbass.jpg

That's definitely not 20 hp lower :lol:

Try 1 hp. So you got it down from 306 and change to 305 and change, nice work. Your efforts are much appreciated.

Uh, says CF:STD
Translation - Correction Factor: Standard.
Click "none".
k.thx.bai.

Ok, what problems have you pointed out that need addressing with the Pettit kit Jeff? So far none of the engine failiers have been due to anything but user error. # 1 was Denny, carbon from running to rich was the cause and his motors still alive so it wasnt a catostrofic failier, #2 ?????, if he wants to chime in feel free to but his was due to grabbing the wrong gear and way over reving. #3 phils auto, failier was due to being overheated more then well, how many times did your car get overheated while it was being expermented on with attempts of trying to cool it down??? 220+ isnt good for your car period, it starts the port swelling affect and once you see 225, 230 youve just started weakining your springs under the apex seals and side seals. If you are seeing temps this high you need to park the car and find an alternative mode of transport for those hot days. That would be the best advice anyone could give who knows anything about what there talking about. It will keep your motor intact and is a good way to keep from spending your money on a new one. Ok Jeff, tell us more about your 225 engine temps running to the store and back and how many engines youve trashed.

Ok, what problems have you pointed out that need addressing with the Pettit kit Jeff?

MAF tied to the brake booster.
MAF tube too small.
Trash bypass valve.
Aftercooler pump losing prime.
ABS bracket cut. (With a Sawzall, by you. lol)
Idler pulley clearance and belt shredding. (That was your install as well.)
I won't even get into the shipping tune on the Int-X.
13:1 AFRs on the original EFI Dude tune.

#1 - "What does detonation sound like?"
#2 - I don't even know who you are talking about there
#3 - Phil's motor failure isn't even in question. However, his kit was and is.

I've trashed precisely two motors - one with high boost and 260°F coolant temps racing a Mustang up a mountain. That was fun, though.
The other was on a cold engine on a cold day. Of course, 21+ PSI was not going to be supported with the E-Manage and stock injectors. Oh well. The next time I checked my wastegate hoses a little better.
Motor three is in the garage. It has 115 PSI of compression after 15k miles boosted. Perfect motor.
Motor four is in the car. 135 PSI of compression and I've run 14 PSI of boost through it all summer.

I live in the desert. Its just a fact we have to cope with.

I lost track. What were you actually saying?

MAF tied to the brake booster.


Huh, mine is not, can't you make up something better?


MAF tube too small.


Again a miss.
From some of the data logging, it may even be too large (or there was a vacuum leak)


Trash bypass valve.


This was wrote up here, I believe it was Roland who "discovered" this, not yourself.
I have also heard your own turbo kit has valve issues.


Aftercooler pump losing prime.

Not with the "stock" water, the water wetter some use has foam issues.
Engine Ice resolved this for me.


ABS bracket cut. (With a Sawzall, by you. lol)

Would you prefer it was chewed through for clearance?


Idler pulley clearance and belt shredding. (That was your install as well.)


Yes, this is an issue, if you go from 6th to 2nd at 60 Mph.
That also is an issue for Mazda N/A engines due to the extreme RPM these engines can produce.


I won't even get into the shipping tune on the Int-X.

Good, because the EFI Dude flash is now the better way.



13:1 AFRs on the original EFI Dude tune.


Yes, like you said "original", as in beta?



I've trashed precisely two motors - one with high boost and 260°F coolant temps racing a Mustang up a mountain. That was fun, though.
The other was on a cold engine on a cold day. Of course, 21+ PSI was not going to be supported with the E-Manage and stock injectors. Oh well. The next time I checked my wastegate hoses a little better.
Motor three is in the garage. It has 115 PSI of compression after 15k miles boosted. Perfect motor.
Motor four is in the car. 135 PSI of compression and I've run 14 PSI of boost through it all summer.


And how many of your "clients engines were trashed by you?
4 of your customers are getting rebuilt this last week in West Palm.
The lean A/F you have been setting up is killing engines with the AP and that is really an issue that was pointed out to you months ago.
What did you do then, when someone pointed that out?
Was that when you published a forum users home address in response, and threatened another until they actually dropped the product.
You screwed the entire RX8 community out of a good product to acquire an exclusive business model with the AP, mission accomplished Jeff.

My engine failure has nothing to do with the Pettit kit and I thought I made that clear in the beginning. My engine failure mainly due to poor engineering by Mazda. If blame ever can be assessed it will most likely come down to lack of oil and overheating. In the final analysis it can also be blamed upon me and my style of driving.
I have motorhomes, trucks, quads, motorcycles, boats and NEVER have a overheating problem that is not part related. My need for speed carries over into all of my toys. I guess I expected too much out of Japanese engineering to make a car that will stand up to the area in which they sell it.

MAF tied to the brake booster.
MAF tube too small.
Trash bypass valve.
Aftercooler pump losing prime.
ABS bracket cut. (With a Sawzall, by you. lol)
Idler pulley clearance and belt shredding. (That was your install as well.)
I won't even get into the shipping tune on the Int-X.
13:1 AFRs on the original EFI Dude tune.

Some if not all issues pointed out were already addressed and taken care of by providing our own (SC owners) R&D data, Pettit free/discounted upgrades and constructive advice to the SC community. Besides I love working on my rotary cars and heck I’m still trying to improve on my 1972 R100 since I rebuild it back in 1996. After 10k my SC RX8 starts/drives awesome while providing substantial data/videos/showing up to major local events/taking people for rides and not to mention the outstanding customer service I receive every time I call Pettit Racing from the owner himself. As a veteran Military Intelligence (MI) officer be prepared to backup ALL your data/feedback. That is anytime, any day no matter how many times the question/concern comes across the forum. Finally, constructive criticism goes a long way no matter if pointing out flaws or quality to any given system/theory/idea. :eyetwitch

Still ignoring data, even in that context?
No. Obviously I'm even more invested in the Esmiril/GReddy/PTP/SFR threads.




The whole point isn't to make the product "go away". We want to make it as fast, powerful, reliable, predictable and consistent as possible.
If you can't see that my goal is ALWAYS to improve a device, then you really are just sticking your fingers in your ears.

Time and time again, my criticisms are aimed and getting a solution. And, when the manufacturer won't pick up the slack, I try to get other people to take the initiative.
Failing that, I do it myself.

When the DNA wasn't right, what were my suggestions? How about the SFR?
I've got entire threads dedicated to the GReddy. Do I own a GReddy kit? No.
So, am I a hater?
Just read that thread and see what I said about them and their "solutions".
The difference is, there are no GReddy fanbois to call me a hater.
Look at the Esmeril thread. Obviously, I'm a hater. That's why I spent hours with Louie trying to get his system to work. And even more hours trying to get to the bottom of the parts selection and WG routing.
I must be a turbo hater, too.

I have no argument with Cam. Why would I?
When I went about pointing out the big problems the Pettit system had, Moon and the fanbois went apesh*t instead of addressing the problem.
Then, they did eventually. Why that reaction first?
I doubt when I pointed out that ZIP-tying the MAF to the MC that the reaction from Cam was "Oh, he's a hater!".
What was GReddy's response when I pointed out how FUBAR the injector scheme was for the E-Manage?
They changed it.
I didn't see a single person complain that I was hating on GReddy.

When people question my choice of turbo or whatever, is my first reaction (or that of the MazdaManiac fanbois club) to call people out as haters?
No.
You get a constant, unrelenting stream of data.

Obviously, my personal tactic - being brusque - is designed to bring the worst out in people.
It makes my job easier by separating the wheat from the chaff.
If you are smart/cunning you will not get lured in by my tactics and see the quality of the question, not the abrasiveness of the words.
If what I say makes you angry, take a step back and realize you are being played.


A perfect example of my point. 99% of the crap in this forum either revolves around Jeff telling everyone else how stupid they are or trying to defend the indefensible when someone calls bullshit on him. Like I said before, he has the capability of bringing good information here, but digging through the rest of the shit to get to it is getting old.

The true tragedy is that Jeff is an intelligent well, informed tuner (and despite your belief to the contrary, that doesn't earn you my respect.), and the greatest damage he does is to himself. Apparently his lack of exposure to sunlight and time spent seeking lesbian porn have stunted his people skills; this forum would be so much better for all involved and the information he brings so much better recieved if he didn't have an ego that made him feel he needed to be "brusque" because of his arrogance in believing he only needs to speak to the "wheat" and discard the "chaff". Newsflash, Jeff: nobody here is better than anyone else. Some may know more about certain things, but you certainly aren't king. The crash, when it comes, is going to hit you hard. You have my sympathies in advance.

Charles, this is what I'm talking about. I really want to do business with you; you epitomize class and knowledge; I just can't any longer stomach the thought that Jeff is going to profit in any way from any business I send to you.

A perfect example of my point. 99% of the crap in this forum either revolves around Jeff telling everyone else how stupid they are or trying to defend the indefensible when someone calls bullshit on him. Like I said before, he has the capability of bringing good information here, but digging through the rest of the shit to get to it is getting old.

The true tragedy is that Jeff is an intelligent well, informed tuner (and despite your belief to the contrary, that doesn't earn you my respect.), and the greatest damage he does is to himself. Apparently his lack of exposure to sunlight and time spent seeking lesbian porn have stunted his people skills; this forum would be so much better for all involved and the information he brings so much better recieved if he didn't have an ego that made him feel he needed to be "brusque" because of his arrogance in believing he only needs to speak to the "wheat" and discard the "chaff". Newsflash, Jeff: nobody here is better than anyone else. Some may know more about certain things, but you certainly aren't king. The crash, when it comes, is going to hit you hard. You have my sympathies in advance.


I found this thread particularly humorous:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=103670

Notice how his fan club backs him up in there too? They're like e-gangstas. :lol2:


Charles, this is what I'm talking about. I really want to do business with you; you epitomize class and knowledge; I just can't any longer stomach the thought that Jeff is going to profit in any way from any business I send to you.

I wouldn't worry about that. He doesn't do things for money, he's retired. I'm sure he donates all of his profits to charitable organizations like the Home for Wayward Kitties or the Lesbians In Porn Society. ;)

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c196/Gallion-Beast/Dethklokkitties.png

Then again, he does contradict himself on occasion...


No. No mountains of cash. Just a steady trickle of accolades.
I don't do things for the money. I'm retired.


Ahh, then I need to work on my reading comprehension:


As far as bias goes - why would I be biased against Pettit?
I'm making a small fortune on them. If they suddenly got their act together, I wouldn't be in such a position.
Just think about that before you fly off the handle again.

If you guys are so weary of making MM/Jeff a focal point of conversation why don't you just ignore him?

Face it; we humans are magnets for drama and the controversy is giving many of us something by which we may be entertained/humored.

As far as our money ending up in the pockets of people for whom we have no respect; I guess we all better start interviewing every person who works for the companies with which we do business so we can make sure that every employee they have is somebody we agree with or, at least, can tolerate. Lest we provide sustenance for yet another "asshole".:lol2:

To the rest of us who are not directly involved in this discussion, it seems "ironic" that so many other company turbo/supercharger threads are being destroyed right before BHR releases their kit based on MM's set up. Customers will view this as negative and will remember it when deciding on a future purchase.

In the end this is simply driven by money.

Huh, mine is not, can't you make up something better?


I think you missed the point.
This is how things were.
They are different now because of my "hating".


And how many of your "clients engines were trashed by you?

Zero.


4 of your customers are getting rebuilt this last week in West Palm.

And who might those be?

The lean A/F you have been setting up is killing engines with the AP and that is really an issue that was pointed out to you months ago.

By who? I run ALL of the FI cars rich and the N/A cars at the same safe A/F rotary N/A cars have been running for decades.

What did you do then, when someone pointed that out?

No one has.


Was that when you published a forum users home address in response, and threatened another until they actually dropped the product.

You have no idea what you are talking about and are making completely libelous statements, you realize that, right?

You screwed the entire RX8 community out of a good product to acquire an exclusive business model with the AP, mission accomplished Jeff.

That would have been SWEET.
But, no didn't quite happen like that.

To the rest of us who are not directly involved in this discussion, it seems "ironic" that so many other company turbo/supercharger threads are being destroyed right before BHR releases their kit based on MM's set up. Customers will view this as negative and will remember it when deciding on a future purchase.

In the end this is simply driven by money.

I've had the MM/BHR kit for 8 months now. There is no ramp up for a release going on. It's been available if you wanted to buy it. The dyno results speak for themselves. If the dyno thread results are in question, post what concerns you might have about it and it'll be discussed openly like everything else.

For anything questioned in another product's kit, you should question the very same things about the BHR kit. Fair is fair.

I think you missed the point.
This is how things were.
They are different now because of my "hating".


Actually, things are different now because that was the goal all along. Remember, they had a flash-tuned RX-8 months before you got your hands on an Accessport, and you had absolutely NOTHING to do with it. I knew they would have a flash solution ready before I even got the kit, it was a big selling point for me, and it's working out GREAT so far.

Why don't you take credit for designing the Renesis too while you're at it. It's just as ridiculous to me, but only because I know better.

omg, I can't believe the amount of B.S. that is being thrown around here.
4 cars destroyed by Jeff's AP?!

NAME THEM or STFU about these claims. You guys talk about data and concrete facts yet you keep doing what you claim to hate so much.

To the rest of us who are not directly involved in this discussion, it seems "ironic" that so many other company turbo/supercharger threads are being destroyed right before BHR releases their kit based on MM's set up. Customers will view this as negative and will remember it when deciding on a future purchase.

In the end this is simply driven by money.

Then why did I just tell Cam the last time we spoke that I am leaning toward a Pettit S/C for my own car? Why do I also often suggest to people that they NOT buy my radiator when they, in fact, live in a climate where they won't be taxing the cooling system? Why did I just announce the halting of sales of my clutches due to a disengagement issue until the problem is resolved? Would ANY other vendor on this forum be so open and honest about what happens behind-the-scenes? Profits as a primary motive is an accusation that is wholly and patently ill-conceived.

The reason I, and by extension Jeff, offer the things we do is in a pursuit to make improvements in what is offered in the aftermarket. TANGIBLE improvements that have actually been tested on our own cars and the race cars that BHR sponsors. At the very least, our criticisms about product offerings in the market are out in the open for everybody to discuss. BHR's competitors are not so brave and have decided to lie about the power developed by the MM/BHR 3071 kit and the benefits of the Yukon coil kit. Pussies. Further, BHR actually offers warranties on its products! So much so that I can't even discuss it until after the part is purchased lest I open myself up to manipulations by idiots. BHR is also the ONLY vendor on this forum that openly invites challenges, criticisms, and input on its own products, in its own threads, from anybody who wishes to express themselves regarding our product.

I have been on this forum for nearly 5 years helping even those who don't particularly care for me much to make better-informed decisions regarding modding their cars and it often times has COST me money to do so. Even moreso with Jeff.

If our personal involvement and the kind of help we offer, as tenuous as it can sometimes become, isn't enough then I guess it's time other options are sought by all parties involved.

The nice thing about the AP is that if your intake setup is incorrect, you end up running really rich:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HFovWJhUBkA

Once your MAF housing is setup correctly, your AFRs will go to the desired targets:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5YKErd6MvXE

Both FI maps above were "stock" without any dyno time or special adjustments specific for my vehicle.

I don't think anyone has even had detonation with Jeff's map, nevermind blown an engine.

This is getting bad, Jeff I personally have never had a real beef with you--or any others for that matter, but even you admit that your approach is in ways and at times antagonistic. It always takes 2 or more to argue granted, but when you step into a families house....dont start something.
Dont slam Pettit-- I really like Cam and his crew. He is a straight up guy and he personally helps his customers anyway he can. Goes for the rest of them too.
Remember a product is only defective if the CUSTOMERS think/know it is defective. All of Pettits customers are happy--to the best of my knowledge. The kit works.
Now end this, imho you are welcome in our house, but dont come in dissing us. (i cant believe I said dissing!)
olddragger

Charles--I dont think ANYONE has even thought that you are included in anyway here. I have never heard or known of anyone saying anything but appreciation for what you do.
olddragger

The level of reading comprehension and insight alone is worth the price of admission to this thread.

BT - The "who's viewing" ticker is like a who's-who of teh Internets!

OMG! I made the "who's who" of the intrawebs!

The level of reading comprehension and insight alone is worth the price of admission to this thread.

BT - The "who's viewing" ticker is like a who's-who of teh Internets!

aww come on, you can do better than that! Do you have that reading comprehension insult permanently on your clipboard? So Professor Jeffy, where's your thread on reading comprehension?

Speaking of reading comprehension, how's that small fortune you've made off of the Pettit's mistakes treating you? I hope you didn't invest it in real-estate or something, that housing market's been trending a tad downwards lately... :lol2:

No. No mountains of cash. Just a steady trickle of accolades.
I don't do things for the money. I'm retired.


Ahh, then I need to work on my reading comprehension:


As far as bias goes - why would I be biased against Pettit?
I'm making a small fortune on them. If they suddenly got their act together, I wouldn't be in such a position.
Just think about that before you fly off the handle again.



Keep the insults coming, maybe you'll get this thread closed as well.

Charles--I dont think ANYONE has even thought that you are included in anyway here. I have never heard or known of anyone saying anything but appreciation for what you do.
olddragger

That's because I refuse to publicize some PMs I receive from time to time. The arrogance in them is astounding.

Bastage--come on man--time for ALL to calm down here.
Olddragger

These arguments could ALL be avoided if all forum vendors would stay out of other forum vendor's sections- especially the ones they have issues with. If this continues, it will be made an official forum guideline. We cannot have vendors fighting amongst themselves. You are all expected to follow the same code of conduct as everyone else.

Sorry to hear that Charles--it does take all kinds to make the world go round. Glad you have the "filters" in place to weed out the ones that are not important.
Words are such a poor form of communication anyway.
take care Bro.
OD

^^ The voice of reason.

I'd almost be willing to give up vendor status just so I could keep up the pressure!

But, I'm pretty sure Ray would bonk me on the head for that.

Thanks Elara. Point taken.

Adios!

These arguments could ALL be avoided if all forum vendors would stay out of other forum vendor's sections- especially the ones they have issues with. If this continues, it will be made an official forum guideline. We cannot have vendors fighting amongst themselves. You are all expected to follow the same code of conduct as everyone else.

The VENDORS are not fighting, Elara.

The VENDORS are not fighting, Elara.

Yeah, but they are going to make the point that, since my stuff is under your umbrella that I am subject to the same rules.

....and you are....so eff off and get back to work, Slave!:lol2:

Everybody else knows where I and BHR stand so I will simply unsub.

....and you are....so eff off and get back to work, Slave!:lol2:



DAMNIT!

I was just trying to get some of that sun that Bastage was talking about!
Pool-side Internet FTW!

I gotta remember to turn off that WEB cam so you can't tell when I'm goofing off...

Then why did I just tell Cam the last time we spoke that I am leaning toward a Pettit S/C for my own car? Why do I also often suggest to people that they NOT buy my radiator when they, in fact, live in a climate where they won't be taxing the cooling system? Why did I just announce the halting of sales of my clutches due to a disengagement issue until the problem is resolved? Would ANY other vendor on this forum be so open and honest about what happens behind-the-scenes? Profits as a primary motive is an accusation that is wholly and patently ill-conceived.

The reason I, and by extension Jeff, offer the things we do is in a pursuit to make improvements in what is offered in the aftermarket. TANGIBLE improvements that have actually been tested on our own cars and the race cars that BHR sponsors. At the very least, our criticisms about product offerings in the market are out in the open for everybody to discuss. BHR's competitors are not so brave and have decided to lie about the power developed by the MM/BHR 3071 kit and the benefits of the Yukon coil kit. Pussies. Further, BHR actually offers warranties on its products! So much so that I can't even discuss it until after the part is purchased lest I open myself up to manipulations by idiots. BHR is also the ONLY vendor on this forum that openly invites challenges, criticisms, and input on its own products, in its own threads, from anybody who wishes to express themselves regarding our product.

I have been on this forum for nearly 5 years helping even those who don't particularly care for me much to make better-informed decisions regarding modding their cars and it often times has COST me money to do so. Even moreso with Jeff.

If our personal involvement and the kind of help we offer, as tenuous as it can sometimes become, isn't enough then I guess it's time other options are sought by all parties involved.

The reason for my statement was based on the mindset people will retain after reading the thread. The feeling I received was suspicion, it just felt weird to see an argument in nearly every turbo product thread outside of BHR's product. I am not questioning the product itself, but merely the human side of the discussion. It just seems way too aggressive.

The reason for my statement was based on the mindset people will retain after reading the thread. The feeling I received was suspicion, it just felt weird to see an argument in nearly every turbo product thread outside of BHR's product. I am not questioning the product itself, but merely the human side of the discussion. It just seems way too aggressive.

The interesting thing is that people have threatened to make comments regarding the turbo kit offered by MM and BHR yet all I've seen are comments saying "your turbo doesn't flow enough" yet the people making that claim have poor evidence to back up their own product.

THAT however, is another story.

I've lurked the pettit thread for quite a while and I'm sure people would call me a troll for expressing my opinion but here is what I have come to believe as an RX8 owner and an experienced member of the automotive community.

Show me the money!

The pettit supercharger itself is a fantastic product. It's well built, well put together, and no doubt has the capability to produce the power it claims. MY issue and the issue of many others is that this kit is advertised as "complete" upon purchase when it's anything but complete.

There is no uniformity with the kit as I've seen several Pettit installs and they all look totally different. I won't re-hash the issues with the kit as they have been well covered here. The primary aspect is the kit isn't complete...not by a long shot.

What you are seeing, are people paying GOOD money for this kit and then having to invest thousands more in water/meth, MAF tube fabrications, engine managment, a new heat exchanger etc. By the time you're done, you've invested tons of cash and still you're making less power than you would have with a modest turbo upgrade.

Then, to make matters worse...I have not seen one official pettit car do anything with this kit other than fly down the street with a christmas tree of dash lights. Those of us helping develope products here in AZ are out testing these products on OUR cars. Not only that, but we're on the race track in 105+ degree heat pushing these products to their limits and past them in some cases. Then we fix what was broken and make it better.

This goes beyond Pettit, but I don't see ANY RX8 vendors doing this other than BHR. I don't see anyone from other vendors out doing local race events, time attacks, or other events to showcase their products and put their money where their mouth is.

All I see are RX8's in the shop rev'ing their motors and going SEE IT WORKS!

At the end of the day I hear a lot of "well I'm happy and that's all that matters" which is fine for some people out there. Still, I think that's a poor cop-out from having to prove yourself.

Everything with cars is competitive and if you are going to make challanges against someone elses ride, shop, or product you better be prepared to back them up with your own stuff.

We are putting our stuff to the test, producing numbers and backing up claims. We expect no less from anyone else.

Not for nothing Flash, but I have seen more information about the Pettit guys auto-crossing their cars than I have heard about BHR doing anything other than overheating in traffic. So what does that mean? It just means that you haven't read every Pettit thread and I haven't read all the BHR information. So don't dump on the Pettit guys for not using their kits because you haven't read where they have.

Second, kits undergo revisions. The fact that components of the kit have changed with time (presumably for the better) is a net positive. It is better to be responsive to the shortcomings of your products than it is to be too conceited or stubborn to realize that nothing ever transfers from prototype to production flawlessly. I know a guy up here in NJ who bought the kit, installed it himself, got a couple flash revisions and is super happy with it. Actually, of the 4 Petit SC I have seen, all have had happy owners. I've never seen a BHR turbo kit in person. Personal experience on a national scope doesn't amount to a large enough sample to really draw any conclusions.

Some people want to make this into a turbo vs. SC thing. Some people want to make this into an AZ people vs. FL people thing. The truth is it's just a bunch of dickwagging now. All the meaningful technical observations have been cast aside in favor of trash talking everyone else. It would be nicer if everyone lived in the same town and you could trash talk each other in person over a beer or two. It would be much less belligerent.

The interesting thing is that people have threatened to make comments regarding the turbo kit offered by MM and BHR yet all I've seen are comments saying "your turbo doesn't flow enough" yet the people making that claim have poor evidence to back up their own product.

THAT however, is another story.

I've lurked the pettit thread for quite a while and I'm sure people would call me a troll for expressing my opinion but here is what I have come to believe as an RX8 owner and an experienced member of the automotive community.

Show me the money!

The pettit supercharger itself is a fantastic product. It's well built, well put together, and no doubt has the capability to produce the power it claims. MY issue and the issue of many others is that this kit is advertised as "complete" upon purchase when it's anything but complete.

There is no uniformity with the kit as I've seen several Pettit installs and they all look totally different. I won't re-hash the issues with the kit as they have been well covered here. The primary aspect is the kit isn't complete...not by a long shot.

What you are seeing, are people paying GOOD money for this kit and then having to invest thousands more in water/meth, MAF tube fabrications, engine managment, a new heat exchanger etc. By the time you're done, you've invested tons of cash and still you're making less power than you would have with a modest turbo upgrade.

Then, to make matters worse...I have not seen one official pettit car do anything with this kit other than fly down the street with a christmas tree of dash lights. Those of us helping develope products here in AZ are out testing these products on OUR cars. Not only that, but we're on the race track in 105+ degree heat pushing these products to their limits and past them in some cases. Then we fix what was broken and make it better.

This goes beyond Pettit, but I don't see ANY RX8 vendors doing this other than BHR. I don't see anyone from other vendors out doing local race events, time attacks, or other events to showcase their products and put their money where their mouth is.

All I see are RX8's in the shop rev'ing their motors and going SEE IT WORKS!

At the end of the day I hear a lot of "well I'm happy and that's all that matters" which is fine for some people out there. Still, I think that's a poor cop-out from having to prove yourself.

Everything with cars is competitive and if you are going to make challanges against someone elses ride, shop, or product you better be prepared to back them up with your own stuff.

We are putting our stuff to the test, producing numbers and backing up claims. We expect no less from anyone else.

I think ironically this may have been exactly what Dillsrotary was getting at in his statements (not trying to put words in his mouth, just the way I read them). You're giving lots of reasons in a Pettit forum why BHR/MM is better - and inferring that Pettit has never raced a RX-8, or done any R&D.

This is kind of funny as those of us that have been in the community before the RX-8 even existed remember the Banzai cars, and that Cam campaigned RX-7 race cars for years in professional circuits, etc...they already have a strong reputation.

btw, that's a quick google search...

http://www.dragtimes.com/Mazda-RX-8-Timeslip-4201.html

It would be nicer if everyone lived in the same town and you could trash talk each other in person over a beer or two. It would be much less belligerent.

+1

You can all head up to Ohio for a weekend and show off your cars. We have cheap beer, no hurricanes, and no overheating (sure it's 95 today but it's also 100% humidity!). Mid-Ohio's a great course or we'll all be at Beaver Run in October (not QUITE Ohio). Plus there's almost no one with turbos or superchargers so you don't have to worry about the angst.

Not for nothing Flash, but I have seen more information about the Pettit guys auto-crossing their cars than I have heard about BHR doing anything other than overheating in traffic. So what does that mean? It just means that you haven't read every Pettit thread and I haven't read all the BHR information. So don't dump on the Pettit guys for not using their kits because you haven't read where they have.

Second, kits undergo revisions. The fact that components of the kit have changed with time (presumably for the better) is a net positive. It is better to be responsive to the shortcomings of your products than it is to be too conceited or stubborn to realize that nothing ever transfers from prototype to production flawlessly. I know a guy up here in NJ who bought the kit, installed it himself, got a couple flash revisions and is super happy with it. Actually, of the 4 Petit SC I have seen, all have had happy owners. I've never seen a BHR turbo kit in person. Personal experience on a national scope doesn't amount to a large enough sample to really draw any conclusions.

Some people want to make this into a turbo vs. SC thing. Some people want to make this into an AZ people vs. FL people thing. The truth is it's just a bunch of dickwagging now. All the meaningful technical observations have been cast aside in favor of trash talking everyone else. It would be nicer if everyone lived in the same town and you could trash talk each other in person over a beer or two. It would be much less belligerent.

Excellent posts guys.

For those of you who haven't seen them, there are several youtube videos of Pettit RX-8's autocrossing. Denny probably has some videos of himself road racing, as does Roland I'm sure. Add to that the drive Cam and I took with our cars up to the Deal's Gap Rotary Rally back in April, and Moon's drive up to some other event in Pennsylvania last year and you've got about 9000 combined miles of us driving just to show off our cars' supercharger setups (ok, also for pleasure too, following a champion race car driver through the Dragon is an experience I will never forget).

Nevermind the local events Juan, Norman, and myself have gone to (where we've only ever seen one turboed RX-8). There's one on Sunday the 31st in Orlando (see Champion motorsports) and Juan, Cam, and myself will be there with our cars, and Cam will be giving test rides. As for R&D, see my sig and you see why Cam went with the S/C instead of the turbo.

as for this stuff:


There is no uniformity with the kit as I've seen several Pettit installs and they all look totally different. I won't re-hash the issues with the kit as they have been well covered here. The primary aspect is the kit isn't complete...not by a long shot.

What you are seeing, are people paying GOOD money for this kit and then having to invest thousands more in water/meth, MAF tube fabrications, engine managment, a new heat exchanger etc. By the time you're done, you've invested tons of cash and still you're making less power than you would have with a modest turbo upgrade.



Uniformity: I've seen 8 Pettit Kits, and they look pretty much the same. Juan has made some bling-improvements (custom tray under the MAF tube/air filter) etc, but otherwise they're the same. If there's a lack of uniformity it probably has more to do with who installs it. People have different tastes and often take pride in throwing in their own customizations.

MAF tube fabrications: Initially there was some of that going on, but that's been completely resolved. We didn't use the MAF initially since the Interceptor-X was being used for fuel management.

Engine management: has been resolved since we stopped using the Int-X, back in November for most of us.

Heat exchanger: I'm still running the same heat exchanger (as are most of us). Juan has experimented with the BHR and a custom one, but I'm not sure what his findings are. A few others may have bought or are testing the BHR exchanger.

Methanol injection: I installed W/M injection last month, but I went about 14000 miles without it (and several autocross/drag race days). It's not a necessary upgrade, but if you like to drag race and autocross in 95-100 degree heat, it's a nice and relatively cheap addition (especially if you buy it from Charles). I think Jeff has this on his car too.

+1

You can all head up to Ohio for a weekend and show off your cars. We have cheap beer, no hurricanes, and no overheating (sure it's 95 today but it's also 100% humidity!). Mid-Ohio's a great course or we'll all be at Beaver Run in October (not QUITE Ohio). Plus there's almost no one with turbos or superchargers so you don't have to worry about the angst.

Was at MidOhio for the GrandAm races this summer. The track looks like great fun! I hope to make it out there next year with NASA.

You regurgitated some information you've read on various w/m injection websites, but none of that explains how you're getting a 20% hp increase using w/m injection without tuning for it.

~380 whp at 9psi with w/m injection
:bsmeter:

ummmm, i'm pretty sure no one ever claimed 380whp on 9psi +w/m... rather it was 14 +w/m





I have also heard your own turbo kit has valve issues.



If you did your homework, you'd find that in original concept there likely would have been wastegate issues.... SOMEONE paid enough attention to catch it, make the necessary changes, and now has NO issues...






I disagree, where are the logs, charts, and diagrams of your kit?

ummmm, i'm pretty sure THIS THREAD (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=133075) has lots of pictures, compressor charts, turbine charts, the dyno plot, etc etc etc....



I've only seen one dyno.


http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=133075 yes there is one dyno....

the difference is, the kit represented is sold and marketed to reflect THAT dyno.... if someone does more with it good on them(same as the greddy, marketed at 5-6psi, everyone ran at 9+psi). This isnt a dyno that you have to TRY and put effort forth to achieve like some others.....

if you want more dyno's go look for them.... i know exactly where to find dyno's for roughly half or more of the kit's owners.... you go look.

^^that is EXACTLY the root cause of all the bitching... there are a couple owners who are too incapable/stupid to understand the data being presented and questioned. so instead of staying quiet to allow advancing the discussion, they open their mouths, and immediately bash the "haters" for "hating"..... not all of the S/C guys are like that.... I think the whole T/C-S/C fanboi/clique thing is stupid, but if its gonna happen then they need to control their own.

(where we've only ever seen one turboed RX-8).

Now why did you go and do that? Everyone's getting along so nicely and you gotta go and jab the turbo guys (of which I am one). Can't we all just get along? Or, if not, can't you just unite to pick on the stock rx8s?

Paul - you're 12 hours too late. This thread is all love and carebears now.

He has a point. Maybe they don't exist.

Now why did you go and do that? Everyone's getting along so nicely and you gotta go and jab the turbo guys (of which I am one). Can't we all just get along? Or, if not, can't you just unite to pick on the stock rx8s?

I was making a point that where you live has a lot to do with what's around you. In AZ, turboed RX-8s at racing events may be pretty common, here in FL, it's the superchargers that show up to these things. I wasn't implying anything else, just responding to Flash's comments.

There has never been a turbo RX-8 at an autocross event at the Martin Sports Car Club, or the Central Florida SCCA Chapter events (which Juan and I go to regularly), and I've never seen any turboed 8's (or even NA 8s) at Moroso or Orlando Speedworld the 5 or 6 times I've gone. The ONLY turboed 8 I've seen in person is MySQL's, and it was parked. It's all geography I guess.

ummmm, i'm pretty sure no one ever claimed 380whp on 9psi +w/m... rather it was 14 +w/m





If you did your homework, you'd find that in original concept there likely would have been wastegate issues.... SOMEONE paid enough attention to catch it, make the necessary changes, and now has NO issues...





ummmm, i'm pretty sure THIS THREAD (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=133075) has lots of pictures, compressor charts, turbine charts, the dyno plot, etc etc etc....





http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=133075 yes there is one dyno....

the difference is, the kit represented is sold and marketed to reflect THAT dyno.... if someone does more with it good on them(same as the greddy, marketed at 5-6psi, everyone ran at 9+psi). This isnt a dyno that you have to TRY and put effort forth to achieve like some others.....

if you want more dyno's go look for them.... i know exactly where to find dyno's for roughly half or more of the kit's owners.... you go look.

^^that is EXACTLY the root cause of all the bitching... there are a couple owners who are too incapable/stupid to understand the data being presented and questioned. so instead of staying quiet to allow advancing the discussion, they open their mouths, and immediately bash the "haters" for "hating"..... not all of the S/C guys are like that.... I think the whole T/C-S/C fanboi/clique thing is stupid, but if its gonna happen then they need to control their own.

The root cause is actually Jeff's ego. Jeff's ego is the reason for everything. Tropical Storm Fay was caused by Jeff's ego. :lol2:

Actually, he claimed a 20% hp increase with w/m injection. If you do the math, that's 316 hp *1.2 == ~380 hp

That's why I called B.S.

But I think we're passed that now. Thanks for your input, man.

FL must be boring. Within maybe 50 miles of me, there are at least 10 greddy turbos, 1 or 2 pettit SC, 2 Esmeril turbo cars, 1 (soon to be 2 but he might not be within 50 miles) Mazsport turbo cars, and a couple customs. These are cars I know of. The number for FI 8s in the area is like 3 to 4 times that. I've been getting people yelling at me on the highway about how their other car is a turbo/SC 8 or they are looking at XYZ kit.