I learnt driving back in Germany, in 1984. Stick shift is mandatory there. I think if you take the test on an automatic, they put that on your license there.

I didn't have a car until 1996 though and this RX-8 is my first manual transmission. No problems, even after nearly 20 years :-)

Question 1:

The other night I was bored and found in the manual on page 5-9 these shifting instructions:

at 14 mph : switch from 1st to 2nd gear
3rd gear at 22 mph
4th at 29 mph
5th at 36 mph
6th at 46 mph

I tried that yesterday and it makes the engine run around 2000 rpm. Is that intended to minimize wear and tear? God forbid that I'd ever go beyond 55 mph :-)

At 2000 rpm there's just no pull - I usually shift around 4000 I think. And I redline it once or twice a day.

Any thoughts on this?



Question 2:

What is more wear 'n' tear on a rotary engine - low rpms or high rpms? And what is more wear on the transmission?



Question 3:
Someone said drive any rpm you want, but don't LUG the engine. What does that mean? (English is my 2nd language..)



-Peter

First - THROW OUT THE OWNER'S MANUAL!

Here are your instructions:

1) Start in 1st gear.

2) When you hear the beep, SHIFT to next gear.

2) Repeat step 2 until desired speed is reached.

The owners manual recommends shift points for fuel economy.

There is no way in hell that I would EVER shift that low ;)

Don't redline the car on every shift (hard to do), rather find some points to shift where you know and understand the power of the car.

If you shift early, the next gear will not feel as fast, and the car will lug until the rpms get up there. Not a bad thing, unless you need to go fast.

you definitely dont shift that low in this particular car. I cruise around at 7k rpms, shift at 8 or 9.

Originally posted by syntrix
car will lug

again! LUG! I think it means to behave like a sLUG (type of snail, right?)

Thanks for the answers...

Originally posted by ptiemann
again! LUG! I think it means to behave like a sLUG (type of snail, right?)

Thanks for the answers...

As in... low engine rpms, you aren't accelerating very fast at all... more of a strain on the engine.

Think 6th gear at 20 mph, floored while climbing a mountain. You don't go fast, and the engine has a large strain on it. 1st would be better ;)

Originally posted by RussellP
you definitely dont shift that low in this particular car. I cruise around at 7k rpms, shift at 8 or 9.

out of curiousity.. are you one of the people who get 13 mpg?

(I'm getting 20 on highway with 4000 rpm)

LUG= to bog down basically press the gas to the floor and you do not go very fast. Along with it you may experience some vibration.

I dont get great mileage right now, but i know its because of how i drive. After having the car a few more weeks im sure ill tone it down a bit but right now its worth the gas money to enjoy the car.

The guys are right - the shift points in the manual are definately for maximum fuel economy, but more importantly, if they are printed that way in the manual, the government mileage tests MUST use them as their gear change points!

Face it, that is the ONLY way the car will get near the 'official' fuel economy!

Just ignore them, they are designed by the lawyers, to cover their ass.
.
.
.
doc

lug=means your mind wants to gof fast but your car is moving at a slower speed than you would like.

I shift around 4k or 5k for the 2nd to 3rd shift and 5-6.5k for the 3-4th shift. I do have a problem with the car jerking when shifting out of 1st into 2nd when i have to keep the car at or around 25 mph any suggestions?

Make sure u press the clutch all the way in and dont just let the clutch drop when u shift. slowely let ur foot off the clutch

or

make sure ur foot is off the gas when shifting, and keep ur RPMS up when in 1st gear.

I was the same way when I first got my manual, I do like the clutch in my corvette MUCH better then the RX8's when I test drove it. In a corvette the clutch activates very fast it makes for great take offs.

this thread has been very helpful to me. thanks everyone.

Does anyone know what ''grinding the gears'' means?

also

When braking, what do you usually do? put it in neutral and coast to a stop or downshift? I heard downshifting is hard on the transmission but is that true?

Originally posted by shimm57
this thread has been very helpful to me. thanks everyone.

Does anyone know what ''grinding the gears'' means?

also

When braking, what do you usually do? put it in neutral and coast to a stop or downshift? I heard downshifting is hard on the transmission but is that true?
Brakes pads are cheaper to replace. I coast M/T in neutral.

I coast when breaking saves breakes and ur legs if u drive a lot.


Grinding gears is when you dont have the shifter all the way in a gear and u let go of the clutch and sounds like someone is sawing off your legs with a chainsaw.

Originally posted by sindows98
Make sure u press the clutch all the way in and dont just let the clutch drop when u shift. slowely let ur foot off the clutch

or

make sure ur foot is off the gas when shifting, and keep ur RPMS up when in 1st gear.


Does this mean that some ppl keep their foot ON the gas while shifting? I was always taught think of clutch and throttle as a teeter-totter. One goes up the other goes down. And vice versa. is this generally good technique?

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Does this mean that some ppl keep their foot ON the gas while shifting? I was always taught think of clutch and throttle as a teeter-totter. One goes up the other goes down. And vice versa. is this generally good technique?

You dip the throttle just enough to reduce the revs to match what they will be in the higher gear. Comming off the gas completely and letting the revs drop is just almost as bad as staying on the gas.

As long as you aren't trying to get a record 1/4 mile time, you should be able to change gear so smoothly your passengers dont notice.

This is particularly important if you are a friend of mine driving his TVR V8 with 400HP and 400ft/lb. His gear changes consist of alternatively being thrown against the belt, and pressed in to the seat, followed by nausia and dry cleaning bills. :)

Cheers
---Dave

I obviously need training. I'm not getting these fine points. Short of going to a track and shelling out a hundred or two, where can I look to get drivers training on MT?

Originally posted by PoLaK
I shift around 4k or 5k for the 2nd to 3rd shift and 5-6.5k for the 3-4th shift. I do have a problem with the car jerking when shifting out of 1st into 2nd when i have to keep the car at or around 25 mph any suggestions?

What's all this 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th to 5th stuff? Approaching the motorway in 3rd at around 25, drop down to 2nd for better acceleration passing the lorries up the slip road up to about 55, at which point you can go straight to 5th if all is clear, or 4th if there's a lot of traffic and you need a bit more oomph to cut through it (or a bit of engine braking if there's no way out). Once you are in your lane, top gear and cruise for a bit.

I'm still in an old fashioned cylinder based car, but I imaging the RX is not too different. (From the test drive you can easily take it up to 70 in second - though the MPG may not be too good).

Now I know why the yanks have got their cars first - to give them time to learn to drive! :)

Originally posted by druck
You dip the throttle just enough to reduce the revs to match what they will be in the higher gear. Comming off the gas completely and letting the revs drop is just almost as bad as staying on the gas.

It seems for me that coming off the gas all the way in the 8 and shifting is perfect- the revs stay high enough and no problems engaging to the next gear- after readinn this I even tried to shift on partial throttle and I just couln't seem to do it- force of habit...

What do others here do- shift on part or no throttle?

Originally posted by druck
Coming off the gas completely and letting the revs drop is just almost as bad as staying on the gas.

Originally posted by emailists
What do others here do- shift on part or no throttle?

I completely come off the gas, but shift quick and ease back onto the gas. Whether shifting up or down it is so smooth you can hardly feel it; you can only hear the change in gear. So is druck saying this is bad for the clutch? I have trouble believing that...

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
I completely come off the gas, but shift quick and ease back onto the gas. Whether shifting up or down it is so smooth you can hardly feel it


that's how I shift as well

keeping the gas down during shifting is otherwise known as "power shifting", an effect which can produce good results for certain cars in certain situations, ie drag racing. of course the whole action is done in about half a second so the revs in the engine shouldn't change too much. this probably isn't a good idea on the 8 since you'll probably hit the rev limiter every time.

Originally posted by visitor
keeping the gas down during shifting is otherwise known as "power shifting", an effect which can produce good results for certain cars in certain situations, ie drag racing. of course the whole action is done in about half a second so the revs in the engine shouldn't change too much. this probably isn't a good idea on the 8 since you'll probably hit the rev limiter every time.

Thanks, visitor. So druck was just jerkin' us around. I knew it didn't sound right.

Originally posted by 8_wannabe
Thanks, visitor. So druck was just jerkin' us around. I knew it didn't sound right.

Re-read the message, I said dip the gas to match the revs, which isn't the same as keeping it down, or coming off completely.

I think you should keep to autos that side of the pond, sticks seem to way too difficult for most of you.

Originally posted by druck
Re-read the message, I said dip the gas to match the revs, which isn't the same as keeping it down, or coming off completely.

I think you should keep to autos that side of the pond, sticks seem to way too difficult for most of you.

You must be right druck...we "yanks" dont have a lot of history with automobiles. We have much to learn from our Red Coat brothers.

i shift 2 different ways:

1) daily driving - i come off the gas completely press the clutch halfway to all the way, engage the higher gear, slowly let off the clutch while evenly depressing the gas...makes for a smooth ride

2) racing - i let off the gas just a little (like an inch), press the clutch just enough to disengage and engage the higher gear (about an inch to 2 inches in the RX-8), let off the clutch quickly while flooring the gas...keeps the revs up...i've always called this power shifting although i don't know if that's the right designation

so yea, it depends on how you want to drive...sometimes when i power shift i don't let off the gas at all, sometimes i press it in further cuz the time it takes for me to get from 1 gear to the next is about a second so when i get to the next gear, i'm up to 8000-9000 rpms and the car takes off a lot better...

Originally posted by druck

I think you should keep to autos that side of the pond, sticks seem to way too difficult for most of you.
Funny, now you M/T drivers are bickering amongst yourselves. Thanks for giving the A/T drivers a rest.;)
Anyhow, what exatly is wearing out if if you let the RPM drop? I Know diesel tractor truck drivers(on older trucks) like to double clutch and shift at a certain RPM. I think thay do it that way so so they do not grind gears.

Originally posted by druck
Re-read the message, I said dip the gas to match the revs, which isn't the same as keeping it down, or coming off completely.

I think you should keep to autos that side of the pond, sticks seem to way too difficult for most of you.

Damn, a brit with an attitude. Not a pretty sight. I have no problem driving stick, only a problem following bad advice. I don't race and don't drive like a maniac (or a mad cow) so no need for rev matching here. Next time you want to post an opinion please do so but don't present it as fact. Like "letting revs drop is just almost as bad as staying on the gas." That is just lame.

Originally posted by BRx8
daily driving - i come off the gas completely press the clutch halfway to all the way, engage the higher gear, slowly let off the clutch while evenly depressing the gas...makes for a smooth ride


This is exactly what I do.

Originally posted by wleonard
You must be right druck...we "yanks" dont have a lot of history with automobiles. We have much to learn from our Red Coat brothers.

Well a Frenchman invented the first steam powered car, a Scot invented the first electric car, and Germans invented the first petrol and diesel cars. What did you invent again? :)

Sorry to be argumentative, but its a bit rich having stick technique questioned by auto drivers. Over here you aren't allowed behind the wheel of a stick unless you have a stick liecence, those that have learnt on autos aren't allowed near. It may go someway to explain why some people are getting such low gas mileage and blowing engines after a few thousand miles.

Anyhow lets get back to agreeing about how good the car is.

Cheers
---Dave

Originally posted by druck
Over here you aren't allowed behind the wheel of a stick unless you have a stick liecence, those that have learnt on autos aren't allowed near.

It's the same in Germany, I think. The amount of people who take driving school and the test on an automatic is probably under 1%. I don't know anyone.

Also the amount of cars equipped with automatic transmission is very much lower in Germany than in the USA. Same in India by the way. I figure Americans need their hands free for other things while driving.

-Peter

Originally posted by druck
Well a Frenchman invented the first steam powered car, a Scot invented the first electric car, and Germans invented the first petrol and diesel cars. What did you invent again? :)

Sorry to be argumentative, but its a bit rich having stick technique questioned by auto driver Its OK,you can talk to me. I can & do drive a stick.

Originally posted by ptiemann
It's the same in Germany, I think. The amount of people who take driving school and the test on an automatic is probably under 1%. I don't know anyone.

Also the amount of cars equipped with automatic transmission is very much lower in Germany than in the USA. Same in India by the way. I figure Americans need their hands free for other things while driving.



There is quite a bit of snobbery against autos in Europe. Here the only people who qualify on an auto only licence are those who have failed the normal (manual) test a dozen times.

An automatic sports car over here isn't common (RX-8 comes as 6sp MT Hi Power and 5sp MT Standard Power). The only autos tend to be large very expensive cruisers, which have a reputation of being old mans cars, as they are the only ones that can afford them. By that age they are too used to the fat cat lifestyle to bother changing gears by themselves.

Cheers
---Dave

...on a slightly separate technique, as the power in lower RPM's is lacking on the 8 (say, below 4,000 RPM), when I need immediate zip, I floor the gas as I am depressing the clutch while quickly dropping a gear and then quickly releasing the clutch. The result is that the car gets up and goes. I would warn that you better get the shift done quickly though or you will quickly hear the buzzer and feel the gas cutoff.

I also tried dropping two gears, though you had better be very familiar with the 6-sp gear shift as more than once I caught the wrong gear (i.e. switching from 6th, looking for 4th and catching 2nd). If in a hurry I find it nearly as easy and more precise to do a quick 6-5-4 or 5-4-3 with the lever with one clutch depression. There are much less challenges going 4-2 as there's nothing left of 2.

Here's a question for our UK brethren, where is first gear? Is it all the way to the left (as in the US) or all the way to the right (given the right-hand drive)? If it's the former it would add further intrigue to driving a RHD car...in addition to driving on the "wrong" side of the road and shifting with the left hand. Also, can you confirm that the gas pedal is on the right? Just wondering...while I have traveled to the UK many times (and loved it each time), I have never driven over there. Cheers!

I sometimes did that on my car too. I left my foot on the gas at the same angle and depress the clutch - shift - release the clutch for a quick and smooth downshift. Although I think that is bad for the synchro's.

The gear and pedal positions are the same for RHD cars. The only thing that's flipped is that the turn signal stalks are on the right now instead of the left. Everytime I switched from a LHD to RHD, I always forgot about that and activated the wipers instead of the turn signals :)

Originally posted by silver8
Here's a question for our UK brethren, where is first gear? Is it all the way to the left (as in the US) or all the way to the right (given the right-hand drive)? If it's the former it would add further intrigue to driving a RHD car...in addition to driving on the "wrong" side of the road and shifting with the left hand. Also, can you confirm that the gas pedal is on the right? Just wondering...while I have traveled to the UK many times (and loved it each time), I have never driven over there. Cheers!

The gear pattern is always the same, low on the left, high on the right, the pedals are also the same!!! The clutch pedal is next to transmission tunnel, which is where it supposed to be right next to the clutch.

And whats this nonsence about driving on the wrong side? You do know why dont you? Its the Frenchies fault!

Back in the days of horses and carridges everyone used to drive on the left, which meant you passed opposing traffic on the right - your sword hand side incase anyone tried it on (dangerous times back then, worse than LA). However when Napolean was marching accross Europe, he objected to anyone on a horse and cart lopping of the heads of his infantry as they rode along, so decreeded everyone should drive on the other side of the road, so they couldn't use their swords - except the miget himself who was a left hander. So the French started this nonsense about driving on the wrong side, leaving only the decent parts of the world (good old former British Empire) doing the correct thing. You Americans with your indepenance nonsense decided to be contrary, as usual :)

Just think how easy it would be to shoot your Uzi 9mm's out the the window if you drove on the left and sat on the right, you wouldn't have to lean all the way out of the window and get the passenger to steer.

Cheers
---Dave

Thats right, and first gear is all the way to the left. Wasnt aware that the indicator gets moved over. In fact I got 2 cars, one has it on the left, one on the right.
Here's a technique for a smooth downshift, we call it double-declutching over here, maybe its the same in US?
Floor the clutch, take your foot off the throttle. Move the gearlever into neutral. Off the clutch pedal and blip the throttle to move the needle up about 1000 rpm. Then off the throttle, down with the clutch again and move the lever into the lower gear. When you come off the clutch the engine revs should match the lower gear and you wont feel the downshift - after a bit of practice that is, and learning the change in engine revs for each gear ratio. It sounds a lot but after practice can take less than a second for the whole operation. I think before the synchro gearbox was invented you HAD to do that for every shift.
Downside - uses (even) more fuel.
Another couple of points - keeping on the throttle while you depress the clutch WILL wear out the clutch and possibly the gearbox.
Coasting to a stop (out of gear) doesnt save the brakes, it wears them out quicker. The engine should help with the braking, unless doing an emergency stop, so change down as you slow down. Also, if the road is slippy or you are braking into a bend, coasting will reduce stability, you need power down to control the car, especially if its rear wheel drive.
JH

[QUOTE]Originally posted by druck
[B]Well a Frenchman invented the first steam powered car, a Scot invented the first electric car, and Germans invented the first petrol and diesel cars. What did you invent again? :)

Well, I do appoligize to my right honorable comrade accros the pond. You are certainly correct in your assesment that europeans are better drivers. And appearently, much better inventors as well. Technological Capitalists greatness incarnate you blokes.

I shudder to think were the world would be had you not carried the rest.

As I ponder that terrible thought, I will enjoy my Japanese made automobile. Manufactured with tender loving care and techniques of Demming.

Oh, and Druck, careful, You've Been Flamed. There's more of them on here than us, AND they've already got their cars!
Walk away......

Originally posted by Jon H
Wasnt aware that the indicator gets moved over.


I dont know what side the indicators are on on the UK car. I dont know if I can trust the pictures, which are either J-Spec modules or reversed pictures of LHD's.

Usually Japanese cars are more suited to right hand drive than UK ones. They also drive on the left like us, but make their cars primarily for the local market, where as most of our designs cater for the left hand drive European market.

The proper place for things on a right hand drive car, like my Mazda MX3 V6 is:-

* Indicators on the right - so you can steer and indicate with the right hand, and shift with the left hand (useful for our roundabout things).

* Fuel cap on the left, so its against the curb when you pull up - not that we have any roadside gas stations any more (regulations).

* Exhaust on the right so the fumes go in to the middle of the road not at the pedestrians. The RX8 has pipes on both sides, but the Euro4 regulations means it puts out cleaner air than it takes in!

Cheers
---Dave

not necessary. I am the first to enjoy some lighthearted verbal jousting. Touche`.

No need to scamper. After all, we are the criminals and garbage banished by "proper" europeans hundreds of years ago to settle a savage land.

So, reasonably, you have every right to consider us as such.

We do wear shoes now. You will give us that much, yes?

Nevermind, I bore myself and others.

Cheers.

Originally posted by Jon H
Thats right, and first gear is all the way to the left. Wasnt aware that the indicator gets moved over. In fact I got 2 cars, one has it on the left, one on the right.
Here's a technique for a smooth downshift, we call it double-declutching over here, maybe its the same in US?
Floor the clutch, take your foot off the throttle. Move the gearlever into neutral. Off the clutch pedal and blip the throttle to move the needle up about 1000 rpm. Then off the throttle, down with the clutch again and move the lever into the lower gear. When you come off the clutch the engine revs should match the lower gear and you wont feel the downshift - after a bit of practice that is, and learning the change in engine revs for each gear ratio. It sounds a lot but after practice can take less than a second for the whole operation. I think before the synchro gearbox was invented you HAD to do that for every shift.
Downside - uses (even) more fuel.
Another couple of points - keeping on the throttle while you depress the clutch WILL wear out the clutch and possibly the gearbox.
Coasting to a stop (out of gear) doesnt save the brakes, it wears them out quicker. The engine should help with the braking, unless doing an emergency stop, so change down as you slow down. Also, if the road is slippy or you are braking into a bend, coasting will reduce stability, you need power down to control the car, especially if its rear wheel drive.
JH

why is it that you should be in neutral when you blip the throttle, instead of just holding down the clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting down and then letting off the clutch? there's probably a good reason, i can't remember. i

Originally posted by wleonard
After all, we are the criminals and garbage banished by "proper" europeans hundreds of years ago to settle a savage land.A wise man once told me "Australia got the criminals; America got the puritans. Australia got the better deal." :D

Originally posted by visitor
why is it that you should be in neutral when you blip the throttle, instead of just holding down the clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting down and then letting off the clutch? there's probably a good reason, i can't remember. i

Because the drive has to be connected when you blip the throttle, ie. the clutch has to be let out - its not just to get the engine speed right, but also the correct shafts in the gearbox too. Releasing the clutch whilst in neutral makes this connection, so that the 'throttle blip' can be transmitted through the drive.
I'm not a technohead so maybe someone out there might be able to add more detail, but I enjoy my driving and know that it works!! I'd draw a diagram if that was possible!
JH

Originally posted by eccles
A wise man once told me "Australia got the criminals; America got the puritans. Australia got the better deal." :D


For a comparison between the British and the Americans there was a famous quote a few years back, OK its a bit old now, it came in the Clinton era. And not my words so dont flame me please....

Three differences were noted between GB and USA:
1) In Britain, English is spoken
2) If the British hold a Sports World Championship, other countries are invited to take part
3) In Britain, visitors to the Head of State just go down on the one knee.

Slightly off the mark, but fun nevertheless, esp if there are any Canucks lurking here:

"Pity the poor Canadians. They could have gotten British culture, French cuisine and American technology. Instead, what they got is British cuisine, American culture and French technology."

I heard this at a NATO meeting once where members of all nations were present. Thought it was pretty funny.

Originally posted by druck

Back in the days of horses and carridges everyone used to drive on the left, which meant you passed opposing traffic on the right - your sword hand side incase anyone tried it on (dangerous times back then, worse than LA). However when Napolean was marching accross Europe, he objected to anyone on a horse and cart lopping of the heads of his infantry as they rode along, so decreeded everyone should drive on the other side of the road, so they couldn't use their swords - except the miget himself who was a left hander. So the French started this nonsense about driving on the wrong side, leaving only the decent parts of the world (good old former British Empire) doing the correct thing. You Americans with your indepenance nonsense decided to be contrary, as usual :)

That's close to what I read, but you skipped the French Revolution. Peasants used to walk on the right so they could see the carriages coming before they were mown down. After the revolution they continued on this side even when they started to get carts of their own, and any aristocracy wishing to keep their heads found it safest to do the same. Napolean extended use of the right (i.e. wrong) side of the road when marched into Prussia etc. and another troublemaking shortarse extended it further in the middle of the last century. The states, i think, chose to drive on the right mainly because we use the left. Elsewhere the side of the road used reflects the current or historical influence of empires. Iraq, I imagine, drives on the left at the moment.

Originally posted by wleonard
No need to scamper. After all, we are the criminals and garbage banished by "proper" europeans hundreds of years ago to settle a savage land.

Was it savage when you found it? I thought you'd worked hard to get it that way :)

Originally posted by visitor
why is it that you should be in neutral when you blip the throttle, instead of just holding down the clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting down and then letting off the clutch? there's probably a good reason, i can't remember. i

To get back on point (as amusing as these ramblings are)...

I do exactly what visitor is suggesting (I think -- if I'm reading him right). When I shift, I simultaneously release the throttle and disengage the clutch (the teeter totter), which immediately reduces the rpms. Before I again let off the clutch I give the throttle a "blip" to bring the rpms back up to the level necessary for the new gear (whether lower or higher). When the rpms are at the right spot, I release the clutch.

Seems to work...is it wrong? (I'm relatively new to MT myself, which may be obvious to all.)

Originally posted by Hayseed
When I shift, I simultaneously release the throttle and disengage the clutch (the teeter totter), which immediately reduces the rpms. Before I again let off the clutch I give the throttle a "blip" to bring the rpms back up to the level necessary for the new gear (whether lower or higher). When the rpms are at the right spot, I release the clutch.

This is exactly what I do. I never thought of it as blip or rev matching, but I guess that's what it is. I'd bet about 98 percent of MT drivers do this but a purist like druck thinks no one on the winning side of the pond could possibly drive stick with anything tantamount to skill.

Originally posted by druck
Well a Frenchman invented the first steam powered car, a Scot invented the first electric car, and Germans invented the first petrol and diesel cars. What did you invent again? :)
...
Cheers
---Dave

We invented the assembly line and perfected interchangable parts (starting on a gun of course, the Colt). Keeps them backwards RX-8s quite a bit cheaper than if they were built one by one, eh?:D

Originally posted by visitor
why is it that you should be in neutral when you blip the throttle, instead of just holding down the clutch, blipping the throttle, shifting down and then letting off the clutch? there's probably a good reason, i can't remember. i

It's called double-clutching and is required with transmissions that don't have synchros... not needed for most modern cars but will help save the synchros.

When you put the car in neutral, the input shaft of the transmission is connected to the engine but is disconnected from the output shaft (connects to the wheels). Blipping the throttle will increase the engine speed AND the input shaft speed to match the speed needed for the next gear. When the shifter is moved into place for the actual gear change, the gear teeth will engage smoothly without needing synchro help because the input shaft is already spinning at the right speed.

When you downshift without double-clutching, the synchros have to speed up the input shaft to match the gear you are engaging which puts wear on the synchros. Not a big deal since that's how the transmission was designed to work.

I haven't actually tried double-clutching myself. I think I learned it all from reading the web at some point. :)

Originally posted by Jon H
Because the drive has to be connected when you blip the throttle, ie. the clutch has to be let out - its not just to get the engine speed right, but also the correct shafts in the gearbox too. Releasing the clutch whilst in neutral makes this connection, so that the 'throttle blip' can be transmitted through the drive.
I'm not a technohead so maybe someone out there might be able to add more detail, but I enjoy my driving and know that it works!! I'd draw a diagram if that was possible!
JH

i believe you are looking for the layshaft. if you are in neutral, and have the clutch pushed in, giving a blip on the throttle will spin the crank faster up to the flywheel. the driveshaft will be spinning at whatever it happens to be while the layshaft, which is basically the clutch disc and pressure plate (depends how you consider this), is slowing down. so even if you revmatch the motor to what it should be, you are missing the middle part.

since i can't draw a picture here's the sequence of the drive train =)

crank -> flywheel |1| clutch disc -> layshaft -> one side of your gears |2| other side of your gears -> drive shaft -> differential -> wheels.

the clutch connects |1| and the shifter connects |2| ...so basically when you want to double clutch, rev match, or shift smoother you need to spin up all 3 parts.

ah, ok, that makes sense. so double clutching just saves wear on the syncro's. i assumed that when the clutch was depressed, the entire drivetrain was disconnected, didn't realize the middle part of the drivetrain.

Originally posted by Kamala
We invented the assembly line and perfected interchangable parts (starting on a gun of course, the Colt). Keeps them backwards RX-8s quite a bit cheaper than if they were built one by one, eh?:D

Yes, I'll acknowledge Henry Ford's contribution to manufacturing, especially as Ford own Mazda - but the RX8's engine is still built by hand!

Cheers
---Dave

interesting.....learn something new here.

I have been driving manual trans since I was 15 (many moons ago) and never considered what goes in to double clutching. I drove an old 280z with the syncros worn out and was in effect matching rpm to drive train to slip the gears in.

Nice to see the explanation.

Also, enjoying my chukles on Ex British Empire folk lore.