After reading all the great posts here...praise, criticism, flame, anti-flame, I'm inching ever closer to pulling the trigger on an 8.

I think it looks great. I've been worried that the styling would grow old, but the more I look at the car, I realize that "who cares!" I like it now and if I tire of it, I'll just get a different car. In the meantime, I'll have a great looking car that will be fun to drive, at a reasonable price.

My brother thinks I'm crazy because he still remembers all the horror stories about the original rotaries, but again I say, "who cares!" I'll just get a different car.

I was going to hold off until I saw the new '04 TL, but the pictures I've seen of it scream, BORING, at least compared to the 8.

I'm going to hit the local dealers this weekend and see if I can get an offer I can't refuse. Inventory at mazdausa indicates a local dealer has the car I want: MT, blue, Touring package...no extras...spoiler, appearance pkg, etc. Heck I may wander over there tomorrow night to beat the tripling of the VLF here in CA.

Help me...I'm meltinggggggggggg

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

Does it look amazing?

Well, yes.

Does it go round corners like its on rails?

Um, suppose so.

Does it have a unique power plant that nobody but Mazda has the gut to produce?

Suppose it does.

Got the guts to stand out and be different?

ok

Then DO IT!

This message was brought to you by the authors of Zero Pressure Forum Postings inc :D

Originally posted by starbucks
Help me...I'm meltinggggggggggg

1000 to 9000:D , shift zoom 9000:D , shift zoom 9000:D , shift, zoom 9000:D , shift zoom 9000:D , ahh forget 6th. Smile :D :D

DO IT... I love mine and the women.. oh my god the women...

The car does it. Had a tacoma before this and no comparison "oh yah in Alabama the car wins" DO IT

Interesting. I have an RX8 that is going through the buyback procedure and have pretty much settled on the 04 TL as it's replacement. Here are my reasons for both just so you have some perspective from someone who is in similar mindset.

1. I am returning the 8 not really because of power but more because I get TERRIBLE gas milage. Best I have got in normal driving was 17MPG and that is 1-3-6 shifting and never winding past 4k.

2. The 8 is amazing looking, BUT I am getting really tired of 16 - 18 year old kids in Ford Focus, Saturns, etc with 9' wings on the back and exhausts that sound like weed wackers saying my car is "phat". I guess I am getting old but I don't really like the attention of this crowd of people (especially when driving because they have nearly hit me about 100 times now)

3. The new TL is a fairly boring design but it is also fairly classic and will wear well over time.

4. I have not seen it yet in person but the interior on the TL looks amazing, and having used the Nav systems in both cars the Honda/Acura Nav is FAR better.

5. Dual zone climate control will be really nice to have again, more-so considering how weak the air in the 8 is. In my previous audis the air was never running at full blast, the 8 in 90+ degree days requires the air to be on full blast.

6. Sounds stupid but the lack of a telescoping wheel in the 8 makes it hard for me to hit exactly where I want on the seat/peddle/wheel combo.

7. I will likely miss the RWD but from a practicle sense in the NE the FWD is better (wish the TL was AWD).

8, I will miss the handling of the 8 but honestly I don't get to use it often in a semi-safe environment and since I don't wind the car to save on gas I find myself pushing the car in corners when I really should not be.

9. Straight line performance will likely be about the same or slightly better in the TL and that is the number I use more often (merging on ramps, etc)

I know where you are coming from and only you can make the decision on the car. I guess I have just come to the realization that I am too old for this car (only 28 but cannot identify with the ricer crowd) and would prefer something offers a nice combination of luxury and power.

Originally posted by Chadr
Interesting. I have an RX8 that is going through the buyback procedure and have pretty much settled on the 04 TL as it's replacement. Here are my reasons for both just so you have some perspective from someone who is in similar mindset.

1. I am returning the 8 not really because of power but more because I get TERRIBLE gas milage. Best I have got in normal driving was 17MPG and that is 1-3-6 shifting and never winding past 4k.

2. The 8 is amazing looking, BUT I am getting really tired of 16 - 18 year old kids in Ford Focus, Saturns, etc with 9' wings on the back and exhausts that sound like weed wackers saying my car is "phat". I guess I am getting old but I don't really like the attention of this crowd of people (especially when driving because they have nearly hit me about 100 times now)

3. The new TL is a fairly boring design but it is also fairly classic and will wear well over time.

4. I have not seen it yet in person but the interior on the TL looks amazing, and having used the Nav systems in both cars the Honda/Acura Nav is FAR better.

5. Dual zone climate control will be really nice to have again, more-so considering how weak the air in the 8 is. In my previous audis the air was never running at full blast, the 8 in 90+ degree days requires the air to be on full blast.

6. Sounds stupid but the lack of a telescoping wheel in the 8 makes it hard for me to hit exactly where I want on the seat/peddle/wheel combo.

7. I will likely miss the RWD but from a practicle sense in the NE the FWD is better (wish the TL was AWD).

8, I will miss the handling of the 8 but honestly I don't get to use it often in a semi-safe environment and since I don't wind the car to save on gas I find myself pushing the car in corners when I really should not be.

9. Straight line performance will likely be about the same or slightly better in the TL and that is the number I use more often (merging on ramps, etc)

I know where you are coming from and only you can make the decision on the car. I guess I have just come to the realization that I am too old for this car (only 28 but cannot identify with the ricer crowd) and would prefer something offers a nice combination of luxury and power.

After reading all of you reasons for saying farewell to the 8, I can't really see why you went for it in the first place :D

Heh honestly looks was the primary reason. I thought it would be a practicle sports car with enough luxury for me. I was wrong and just happened to get the chance to correct that.

The two real faults I have with the car is the MPG and the Air conditioning. Power is not really an issue but those two I do believe to be sub-par.

Otherwise the car is very nice, just not the right car for me.

I was invited to the Acura TL launch event Oct 15th here. I'm busy that evening though :( I might make it out depending on when my previous engagement ends.

I too want to see this car!

Originally posted by Chadr
Heh honestly looks was the primary reason. I thought it would be a practicle sports car with enough luxury for me. I was wrong and just happened to get the chance to correct that.

The two real faults I have with the car is the MPG and the Air conditioning. Power is not really an issue but those two I do believe to be sub-par.

Otherwise the car is very nice, just not the right car for me.

I read somewhere that you guys in the US don't get climate control A/C ??? Is that right?

Compared to what I was looking at when I chose the RX8, I've probably come out on the good side for fuel consumption too. :D

Anyway, for fuel efficiency, I ride a bicycle when I don't need to drive...

Kev - yeah we don't get auto climate control here. It is a straight manual system and it only has 4 fan settings on it.

I think the glass in the car has something to do with the AC here. It doesn't seem like there is any anti-uv or heat reflective properties to the glass (comparing it to my previous Audis) so on days that are very sunny it just brutalizes the interior of the car.

As far as fuel econ goes I would be more accepting if it was a 415hp Z06 Vette or something like that but for a 230ish HP car that weighs 2900lbs the MPG are very low.

For perspective the new TL has a 3.2 liter 270hp V6 in it and weighs 3500lbs. It gets 21/29 MPG.

Found this to be amusing.....

Went to a Honda dealer with my son last night in the RX8. He's looking for a car. Anyway, pull into the front of the dealership and park right next to a brand new S2000 for sale.

My son's looking for something like a corolla/civic/protege.

Anyway, high pressure was on as soon as we walked into the dealership. We stayed only about 10 minutes until finally I told my son we needed to shop around a little more.

Come out to my RX8 and no less than 4 Honda sales people and 3 potential HOnda customers are standing all around the RX8 "oggling" and "pawing" it. It took another 15 minutes of questions about it before we could leave.

BTW....none of the potential customers looked like they even noticed the S2000 sitting next to my RX8....and it was bright yellow...

Man, do I love the RX8.

Having called a number of Honda and Acura dealers it seems that they are like most dealerships - some are high pressure some are laid back. Both my local Honda and Acura dealer are very laid back low pressure.

When I went to the Honda dealership a number of the sales guys were looking at my 8. There is certainily no denying that the car is pretty and much of the oogling is simply because there are VERY few of them on the road. The S2000 was like that when it was new, so was the TT and the Boxster, but as they became more common people stopped looking at them. I think the 8 will hold that oogle factor for another 3 to 4 months at most if Mazda sells anywhere close to the number they are hoping to.

Honestly the oogling has crossed from being cool/amusing to being really annoying since the car seems to attract more attention from the "fast and furious" community then from well spoken car enthusiasts. Maybe that is just where I live though.

the 8 is a great car
but it is a personal decision
have you drove the 8 yet

Originally posted by Chadr

2. The 8 is amazing looking, BUT I am getting really tired of 16 - 18 year old kids in Ford Focus, Saturns, etc with 9' wings on the back and exhausts that sound like weed wackers saying my car is "phat". I guess I am getting old ...

...(only 28 but cannot identify with the ricer crowd) and would prefer something offers a nice combination of luxury and power. [/B]

Interesting responses. I just threw up this thread to amuse myself.

Chdr, you scare me with the comment about the kids. Any older people? Also that "too old" comment. Only 28? You've had tough life, eh?

Saw on the news that the car dealerships in CA are swamped with potential buyers trying to beat the increase in registration fees (.67 to 2.00% of depreciated purchase price) starting Oct 1. The difference for the 8 would be about 200 vs 600. Not enough to stampede me into buying now. Someone at work picked up a new Expedition yesterday, though to beat the fee increase.

It should be interesting to see if the dealers will be willing to "eat" the difference next week by knocking a few hundred extra off the car. All I heard when I visited dealers lately was "buy now to beat the registration fee increase." It was like a broken record.

Mikeb -- Yes I test drove the 8 first week of September and have been trying to hold out until I got a look and test drive in the new TL. You can check out some pics of it here at this site someone set up: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289059399&code=6563490&mode=invite

It's not like seeing the real thing but the pics seem to show the car better than the ones at the Acura website or others I've visited.

starbucks - I have had maybe 2 or 3 older car enthusiasts who have expressed interest in the car. On those occasions I very much enjoyed discussing the merits and detriments of it, and other cars we had owned, etc.

On the flip side I have had 20+ from the "fast and furious" crowd oogle the car and talk about "NOS" and tubros and how they have a 10 second this or that. As far as being only 28 and being too old it is just I cannot identify with a community where it matters more how big and loud your exhaust is then how fast the car really is. I don't get the whole ricer thing and cannot really speak with them on any semi-intelligent level, perhaps it is a deficency in me but I just have not been able to do it.

At this point for me, having come from Audis and the like, I prefer to discuss cars with someone my age or older that is into cars and appreciates subtle differences in technology or approach, etc rather then how big the subwoofer in the car is.

Heh maybe I am just "old school"

Hondas/Acuras, while fine cars, have never done much for me.

I've owned two Accords. The best thing I can say about either of them were that they were reliable. While that's a fine trait, I was never glad I owned them.

I've driven the previous two generations of the TL. Never could "pull the trigger" to buy either one. Can't put my finger on it exactly, but they lacked character/soul/fun....whatever.

Again, I don't want to "dis" anyone who owns a Honda product. They just don't don't "grab" me.

That said, there are plenty of people who do like them given the amount of Accords/TLs/Civics I see on the road.

Chadr -- I know what you're saying about the level of intellectual discussion about the merits of cars. That's exactly what I'm afraid I'll attract if I purchase an 8.

I'm 40 and don't relish the thought of teenagers telling me what a great car I have. I cringe and feel really old at the thought of it.

My first car was a black 425 hp Chevy Chevelle that I bought off a friend. I have great memories of that car (most notibly surviving near misses), cruising around after school and the local hangouts on Saturday nights with the guys looking for chicks. I don't think I need to relive those days.

When I first saw and drove the 8, I fell in love, maybe lust, with the car as I saw it as a very reasonably priced and more comfortable version of an MGB GT that I used to love driving. It was unreliable and handled poorly, but it grew on me in only the way a car can be after going through so much trouble together. The way guys bond during war, I suppose.

The 8 is still number one on my radar screen. I took another look at it this evening after work and I still oohed and awwed when I walked onto the dealer's lot. Interestingly, although it was 8 which may be a bit late, I didn't see anyone looking at the 8's although there were about 10 of them all lined up. Hardly any customers at the Mazda dealer, come to think of it. Perhaps, slow night after the race to beat the tripling of the CA registration fee.

I will let you'all know next weekend after I get a peek at the new '04 TL. If it doesn't make my heart skip a beat, I'll be back over to the Mazda dealer with check in hand.

Originally posted by starbucks
Chadr -- I know what you're saying about the level of intellectual discussion about the merits of cars. That's exactly what I'm afraid I'll attract if I purchase an 8.

I'm 40 and don't relish the thought of teenagers telling me what a great car I have. I cringe and feel really old at the thought of it.

My first car was a black 425 hp Chevy Chevelle that I bought off a friend. I have great memories of that car (most notibly surviving near misses), cruising around after school and the local hangouts on Saturday nights with the guys looking for chicks. I don't think I need to relive those days.

When I first saw and drove the 8, I fell in love, maybe lust, with the car as I saw it as a very reasonably priced and more comfortable version of an MGB GT that I used to love driving. It was unreliable and handled poorly, but it grew on me in only the way a car can be after going through so much trouble together. The way guys bond during war, I suppose.

The 8 is still number one on my radar screen. I took another look at it this evening after work and I still oohed and awwed when I walked onto the dealer's lot. Interestingly, although it was 8 which may be a bit late, I didn't see anyone looking at the 8's although there were about 10 of them all lined up. Hardly any customers at the Mazda dealer, come to think of it. Perhaps, slow night after the race to beat the tripling of the CA registration fee.

I will let you'all know next weekend after I get a peek at the new '04 TL. If it doesn't make my heart skip a beat, I'll be back over to the Mazda dealer with check in hand.

You know, this may seem strange, but how can a particular demographic group liking a car be a bad thing???

Besides, eveyone probably thinks the same thing - it's just people that are younger and less inhibited tend to be more open and honest about what they think.

I don't get it. If a person is eighteen or a hundred and eighteen - if they like the RX8 and it meets their needs, why worry about the fact that a bunch of younger people think your car is cool? What sort of problem is that?

It is not them thinking the car is cool that I dislike is it the fact that they will let you know their opinions at very inopportune times and seem to have the "something to prove" attitude.

For example a young man driving a saturn with a wing the size of a B52 on it decided it would be appropriate to express his interest in the 8 at 80 mph on the highway and then that it would be good to do "flybys" on the 8 with his saturn even though I expressed zero interest in proving the cars abilities.

I guess it is a level of self control and articulation that is lacking in the younger crowd (no doubt I had the same thing at that age) that causes the issue for me. I don't care who likes the car but when it is raining and my wife and are trying to get out of the car and into a restaraunt I don't feel it is appropriate to attempt to strike up a conversation about the car, etc.

Perhaps just perception.

Originally posted by Chadr
It is not them thinking the car is cool that I dislike is it the fact that they will let you know their opinions at very inopportune times and seem to have the "something to prove" attitude.

For example a young man driving a saturn with a wing the size of a B52 on it decided it would be appropriate to express his interest in the 8 at 80 mph on the highway and then that it would be good to do "flybys" on the 8 with his saturn even though I expressed zero interest in proving the cars abilities.

I guess it is a level of self control and articulation that is lacking in the younger crowd (no doubt I had the same thing at that age) that causes the issue for me. I don't care who likes the car but when it is raining and my wife and are trying to get out of the car and into a restaraunt I don't feel it is appropriate to attempt to strike up a conversation about the car, etc.

Perhaps just perception.

Chadr....I'm "in" your age group.

Truthfully, it sounds like you are on the conservative side. If that's the case, then the RX8 probably isn't for you. While its performance is world class, the styling garners a lot of attention from all sorts of different people....young and old (as proven every time I stop for a fill-up).

Everything about the RX8 is forward thinking....from the bulge in the wheel wells, to the rotary accents in the interior, to the to the radical engine, to the way it screams at "red-line". It's a very visceral driving experience/look. Every time you drive it, you will get "looked at" by teens to 70 year olds driving Crown Vics. You will be noticed driving an RX8....probably moreso than if you were still driving the Chevelle SS (BTW, I count a '67 GTO, a '69 MGB GT and a '77 Fiat X 1/9 as some of the cars I've owned).

Honda products are good. But their design is and has always been much more conservative and won't get the amount and type of attention the RX8 garners. That sounds like the type of experience that's more in line with what you're looking for....competent and conservative.

If you find the competent and conservative approach to be more appealing, then I would stick to them.

Not a slight, just an observation.

Just another point on the attention the 8 is getting - it'll cool off when there's more 8s about and everyone's got their first ogle out of their system.

When it comes down to it, I'd rather be noticed in a bright red 8 than mistaken for another grey patch on the road and clobbered :D

To push the point home, my car has already been damaged by eggs (several cut to the metal). It's getting repaired next week and the experience hasn't dimmed the magic of the car for me ... mind you, if I see anybody outdoors with an egg in their hands I'm liable to rip their throat out. (Was working late in a bad suburb).

Originally posted by Kev
Just another point on the attention the 8 is getting - it'll cool off when there's more 8s about and everyone's got their first ogle out of their system.

When it comes down to it, I'd rather be noticed in a bright red 8 than mistaken for another grey patch on the road and clobbered :D

To push the point home, my car has already been damaged by eggs (several cut to the metal). It's getting repaired next week and the experience hasn't dimmed the magic of the car for me ... mind you, if I see anybody outdoors with an egg in their hands I'm liable to rip their throat out. (Was working late in a bad suburb).

Kev....."an egging"....that really sucks.

What do they have to do to the car? Repaint the whole thing?

Obviously, someone is jealous of your ride.

Originally posted by graphicguy


Kev....."an egging"....that really sucks.

What do they have to do to the car? Repaint the whole thing?

Obviously, someone is jealous of your ride.

It's a guard, bonnet and door repaint. The egg even started to dissolve the headlight lens.

Where only the egg itself met the bodywork, the paint protection treatment did it's job - unfortunately the shell breaks into a ring of teeth when thrown hard at close range, hence hte work required.

The marks in the headlight lens will polish out - I caught it early.

It was probably kids that'll grow up to be politicians or lawyers :D

Hehe probably the first and last time I will ever be called conservative :) Honestly though I would say I do fall to the more conservative side of things when it comes to cars now. I appreacite the looks of the RX8 and believe it to be a stunning design. Had I the option of a "toy" car that I could drive when the weather was nice and I didn't "have" to be somewhere I would love the attention it garners. I live a rather busy life currently (45 hours a week as a network engineer, full time college student for teaching, and running my own company for computer consulting and making paintball products) so for me I guess I prefer to come in under the radar currently.

I totally agree that Honda products are fairly boring from an exterior appearance perspective. Much like the Audi and previous gen BMWs then tend to be more austere then bold, and while I would have never guessed I would prefer that it turns out I do now.

I am not bashing the 8 in anyway because of its looks. It is one of the best designs I have seen in years and is easily comparable to other very high end cars. I think it is leaps and bounds better then all the current Porsche designs and with some material changes could easily be used in a car 3x its price.

All that being said you have to decide if you want that much attention or not. At this place in my life I prefer the oppulent luxury of the TL's interior coupled with competent performance (6 second 0-60) over the zing of the 8's design.

Another added is bonus is being less of a target for cops :)

chadr...didn't consider your post to be a slight at all towards the RX8.

There are people who like bold (me, regardless of my 40s age group) and there are people who like "flying under the radar", as you put it.

Honda products definitely fly under the radar.

You might want to take a look at the A4/6, the Infiniti M45 and the BMW 5 series, too since you're looking more for a luxury car with some sport thrown in as opposed to the RX8 which is a sports car with some luxury thrown in.

When shopping for the RX8, I was looking at a Z4 and found the deals on the '03 5 series to be very good. Same with the Infiniti M45 (I drove it when comparing the RX8 to the G35)....a car that definitely flies under the radar but reminded me of an "up-to-date" muscle car. Great deals on those, too.

Audi, at the time (couple of months ago) was giving good deals on the A4/A6.

You can tell which side I come down on since I ended up with the RX8.

Isn't there a Benz in the "C" class sporting a 6 speed tranny and the "K..." badge?

Plus there's some very quick Alfa's these days.

Heh here in the states there are no quick Alphas :) As far as the BMW, Audi and Benz goes they are all great cars just overpriced for what you get. I am not particularly big on name prestige and having worked as a computer guy at an Audi dealership have a good feel for what is offered. For $35,100 you get the new TL loaded and get the following gear:

6-speed manual
Brembo Brakes
17" Wheels
Sat Nav with 8" screen and voice activation (truly awesome)
5.1 channel DVD-A stereo
Bluetooth handsfree cell phone linking
Dual power seats with heat
leather
Memory drivers seat, mirrors, stereo, climate control
dual zone climate control
270 Hp 240 ft/lbs 3.2l VteC V6
heated mirrors
bi-zenon lights
auto-dimming lights
progressive sensing blue led light interior components
xm sat radio
3-d sun sensor with auto adjust climate control
21/29 MPG
4 wheel double wishbone suspension
tons of airbags
etc

Honestly it is hard to beat the TLs features for the money. I have played with the Nav system in the TSX and it is simply the best there is on the market. The voice activation works extremely well and the Nav screen is very visible and functional. I thought about the cars but honestly to get something similar in another brand would cost me close to 10k more.

Guess it is all what you want. Maybe after I have finished with my hectic stage of life and can afford a toy car I will look into picking up a used 8 or something similar.

Kev...I looked at the MB Kompressor...never drove one, but they looked nice.

Unfortunately, we can't get the Alfas here in the States like the fortunate Aussies can. They didn't have much luck here those many years ago when they were offered here. I always like them, though.

chadr....

If you can find an '03 TL, you can get those for about $30K...pretty much equipped the same was as you mentioned (except for a couple of minor features here and there).

If the RX8 is still on your shopping list, its NAV is one of the best in the biz as well as the Bose audio system.

I have an 8 with nav and the nav system is very good, still not on level with the 04 Honda product though.

The problem with the 03 TL is it lacks 6-speed which is a requirement for me. I simply will not drive automatics.

Originally posted by Chadr

The problem with the 03 TL is it lacks 6-speed which is a requirement for me. I simply will not drive automatics.

Can't argue that.

I test drove a G35C with a 6-speed. Real nice and styled somewhere between "under the radar" and "bold". It drove well and was quick. Not as well as the RX8, but might be something to consider, too. I didn't get down to the "nitty gritty" with negotiations, but got to $1,200 off MSRP pretty easily. That would put it right at the price of the TL you're talking about. The big drawing card is it is RWD like the RX8. That's a huge plus. Plus, Infiniti service is supposed to be 2nd to none.

ever since I drove my first 6spd sports car (audi TT), I'll never go back.

You can't lose with the 8.. It is the BEST handling car I've ever driven in.

acceleration is so smooth and steady.

Overall, the car extremely well balanced in performance. Price is very decent also.

The car is gorgeous, who cares what others think, buy it for YOURSELF.

You won't regret owning a car that you will admire everytime you look at it.

There's not alot of things in life that gives you that "loving" feeling on a daily basis. Have you seen the hug commercial?? That's how I feel sometimes :)

Starbucks:

I'm 46 years old. I drove an Infiniti G35 for a couple of days after owning my 8 for about two months. I liked it, but I missed the 8 and everything about it. I'm fairly conservative, I guess, but I like having a car people admire. I think you'll be very happy with it. I thought about a small Lexus or BMW, but when someone sees you in one, they think, "Oh, I guess that's the best one he/she can afford," when it's not necessarily the case. When someone sees you in the 8, they know at first glance why you bought it, and they don't think you "settled" for all you could afford. If I didn't need the rear seats, I would have some kind of two-seater. Go for it!

Thanks for all the comments, folks. I think Chadr and I think quite a bit a like when it comes to the 8.

However, as mentioned, I'll see how it goes this weekend when I see the new TL. From what I hear, it may not look as boring as feared. However, someone who was at a dealer with TL's hidden away ran into someone he reported to be about 65 who said he purchased the car and was simply waiting for Oct 6 when he could take delivery. Reminds me of the new Volvo crowd. :P

I will keep all posted how it goes. Maybe I'll put a big ole B-52 fin on the TL if I want to stand out. Here I come, Chadr!

I test drove both the G35C and the 350Z extensively. First when I was originally looking for a sports car and again, when I had the opportunity to return my RX8. I was always glad to get back to the RX8 after test driving those.

I've looked at Acuras a few times. Not meant as an Acura flame, but I never found them compelling. I know Honda makes good products, but the TLs/CLs were never cars I'd want to spend my money on. Maybe it was their FWD. Maybe it was the way they were designed. I never was excited when I test drove them.

Got to give them credit, though. Honda/Acura seemed to pack a lot of "stuff" in them.