hello, well I'm 19 and I currently own a 1999 BMW M3 with dinan bolt ons. I dyno'd my car at 236whp/230tq. Now the reason I'm even considering getting an Rx-8 isthat it is newer, navi, and heated seats. My car provides enough go for me, my question is what experience if any do you guys have with e36 M3's being handling and feel. What is your guys' insight on the e36 M3 vs. the 8?<z>

I owned an E36 M3 for three years. While it was a great car, the RX-8 is in a completely different league than the M3 in terms of handling and steering feel. The M3 is typical BMW - painfully slow steering rack, relatively little road feel, with a tendency to understeer at the limit. It has a huge steering wheel and a suspension that is not particularly refined.

The RX-8 has quick steering, a nice small steering wheel, a fully adjustable suspension, a lower center of gravity, better weight balance, it weighs less, and it is more tossable and neutral.

Of course, it's slower in a straight line. Depending on how important straightline grunt is to you, it could be a disappointment.

The E36 M3 is in BS with the RX-8 and very few race anymore. A stock E36 has a ton more tq, about 50 ft lbs to the wheels, and about 30 hp more so it gets the edge on power. However you also carry around a little more weight. Brakes are about equal, every BWM down to the 318ti has great brakes. For handling the edge goes to the RX-8, it has A arms suspension with a good amount of negative camber available VS the strut M3 with very limited camber.

Seat of the pants the M3 feels faster but it wont match the RX-8 for handling if you are comparing stock cars.

I never owned a BMW, but have driven a E46 w/ performance package and a E90 with sports package. I didn't have much steering feel with either one, it just kind of numb, almost feels like the fronts are giving up even though they are not. I would think if you really do race/track (since it's completition forum here), you may find the 8 more rewarding as you'll be working to keep the speed up. it's probably a toss up depend on what's more important to you. Go or turn.

I'd say one thing the 8 has over the E36 though. Traction Control. I was at the track last month, and some kid put his E36 into the wall. The instructor said the guy won't listen, but had he have traction control, he probably won't crash.

E36s after 1995 came with traction control. Anyway, who leaves that on at the track? Sounds like the kid needed to learn to drive.

E36 M3's are great cars but look and feel like something out of the 90's. Jump in the front seat of an RX8 and you feel like your living in the 2000's. The RX8 is ahead of the BMW is terms of agility, comfort and practicality but the debate over the rotary engine is still what people focus in on.

The fact most people don't understand the appeal of the rotary engine is something you'll constantly deal with. There are times you'll wonder why this engine is still being used because the power doesn't seem so great and the fuel mileage kind of sucks but once you get the car out onto the track you'll figure it out.:worship:

I had a 97 M3/4 manual before my RX-8 and what everyone is saying is pretty accurate. The M3 feels like a much heavier car, the steering effort, shifter, clutch are all heavy and take more umph from the driver to get the car to do what you want.

M3 has a TON more tq and power which could help in the slow corners. The M3 handles very well although it's not as refined or easy to drive as the RX-8. I would say that the reason the M3 isn't competitive in Bstock is that you can't get much negative camber out of the front stock (not adjustable) so you have to run camber plates hence STU or BSP. With at least 3 degrees of negative camber and some stiff suspension the M3 is a very quick car, maybe ultimately faster than the RX-8 but much harder to get there.

I personally switched from the M3 to the 8 because I wanted a newer car and got tired of dealing with RSM's, RTABs, exploding radiators and water pump impellers etc. The RX-8 is a great value, still comfortable and practical and a great handling sports car with a good warranty.

E36s after 1995 came with traction control. Anyway, who leaves that on at the track? Sounds like the kid needed to learn to drive.

Us beginners leave it on at the track. It saved my ass a few times. Now that I'm getting more experience with the car and the track I may try to track with out it next time.

I'm another E36 M3 to RX-8 convert (97 M3 sedan). I think the E36 M3 is a great car, but stock for stock the RX-8 is a much better handling car.

My M3 with just B-stock legal power mods (it was actually a very underprepared BSP car) made 220 WHP/223 WTQ on a dynojet. Like others have said, the power differential is somewhat made up by less weight in the RX-8, but the M3 is faster in a straight line.

I can't think of a better performance car for the money than the RX-8 right now.

BTW, the traction control on my M3 was worthless. I eventually pulled out the traction control throttle body.

Just remember that TC and DSC are two different things. TC keeps the throttle in check, which is what most older cars have, and doesn't do much to save you on a track. DSC is what blips the appropriate brakes and keeps you from spinning.

E36s after 1995 came with traction control. Anyway, who leaves that on at the track? Sounds like the kid needed to learn to drive.

All F1 drivers do that :rolleyes:

Seriously though, for those of us without lots of track time under our belts, I think the TC and DSC are a must to keep everything is check.

That kid did need to learn how to drive, but if an instructor in the passenger didn't do it, I don't know what will.

heated seats and navi... 2 great reasons indeed :)

Older traction control systems were designed more to make rearwheel drive cars easier to drive in the snow. They were not designed for track or autocross, and in my experience, many of the older systems increase potential for accidents as opposed to decreasing such by applying brakes and/or taking out power during inopportune and unplanned times.

Even in the 8, most who have TC turn it off because all it does is slow you down in autocross situations.

Back on topic...you are going to miss the torque. The RX8 is the best handling car I have ever had, but it is boring as heck around town because it is as torqueless as a millimeter long wrench.

while I never drove the old e36 m3, i did drive the Z3M and e46 M3, the z3m has delicious mid-range power which i feel the 8 doesn't until past 5000rpm. Handling wise, the z3m is less accurate and kinda hops around (rear end) at turns which are less than ideal. The e46 M3 is awesome. But does feel heavy. Driving wise, it didn't feel precise because it is a sedan afterall and unlike the 8, you don't feel as coddled in the cockpit. Lots of power.
The rx8 is imho an equal to the m3 in terms of tractability. In fact Top Gear showed that the rx8 and the m3 set exactly the same times driven by Stig. Just an anecdote. RX8 is great value which offers better interior than the Z or the G35 coupe. Gawd I hate that Nissan steering wheel!

http://teamwtf.org/gallery/albums/album199/dsc_9739.sized.jpg

Us beginners leave it on at the track. It saved my ass a few times. Now that I'm getting more experience with the car and the track I may try to track with out it next time.

You perceived that it saved you. Traction control cannot overcome the laws of physics. Nor can you ever learn to drive at the limit without ever going beyond it.

the m3 has straight line speed and gas mileage on the rx8. The rx8 is better in every other category.

I am a previous E36 M3/4 and also a previous Mcoupe owner as well. I have to say that I love the MCars, but probably have a tendency to remember more of the good than the bad. The M3's torque may be better than the RX8, but nothing to write home about thats for sure. Bolt-on mods were pretty lackluster , agian similar to the 8's.

Overall though, I can drive the RX8 at 9/10 with a decent amount of comfort and predictability, where the BMW's left me a little less confident at the limits of adhesion. I was just in a Z3 roadster yesterday, and I was thinking how much better the RX8 is in the looks and interior department. I have to say though, that if I was not driving the RX8, I would not mind owning another M3 or MCoupe again.

You perceived that it saved you. Traction control cannot overcome the laws of physics. Nor can you ever learn to drive at the limit without ever going beyond it.

Who knows if it saved me from losing control or not. I leave it on when I drive a track for the first time untill I get a good feel for it. I'm not to concerned on driving to the limit on my first day on a track. I'm more about the fun, once I feel comfortable with myself behind the wheel I'll take the next step and move up in class and try it without TC DCS off. Till then TC DCS it is.

So it has been 12 hours...where's the OP? :uhh:

Well I know the car is better handling at the limit but I never reach the limit because I dont autoX

then why post this in the Competition area? :suspect:

Well I drive hard and often hit curves, I just never get to the limit, what kind of modifications are the common for the 8?

I am a previous E36 M3/4 and also a previous Mcoupe owner as well. I have to say that I love the MCars, but probably have a tendency to remember more of the good than the bad. The M3's torque may be better than the RX8, but nothing to write home about thats for sure. Bolt-on mods were pretty lackluster , agian similar to the 8's.

I don't know about that. There are proven bolt-ons for the E36 M3. I spent a couple hundred bucks to get another 30 horsepower. Headers, tuning, cams, the car responds well to those and other changes.

There are also centrifugal and twin-screw supercharger setups available as well as turbo setups. Tons of people willing to tune them. At least three different aftermarket engine management systems out there and running around. The M3 has the advantage of having been on the market here since 1995.

But it's really the only area in which the M3 holds an advantage over the RX-8.

Well I drive hard and often hit curves, I just never get to the limit, what kind of modifications are the common for the 8?

The usual stuff; intake, exhaust, engine management. No cams though (no valves to require a camshaft).

However, Mazda did their homework on wringing out every last drop of performance so none of these mods are likely to get you more than 1 or 2 HP.

Another common bolt-on for the M3 that I felt made a big difference is swapping the intake manifold on OBD-2 M3s for earlier manifolds with bigger runners (325, 95M3, 525). I did this after my dyno and felt that the car pulled much better on the top end. Of course this is from my very inaccurate butt dyno.

Another thing to remember is that you have all kinds of fun things to look forward to in your M3. Airbag sensors, seatbelt latch sensors, wheel speed sensors, the whole cooling system, RSMs, RTABs and such will most likely need to be replaced soon. You'll have to continue to listen to the crappy stock stereo unless you've done something about it. You'll have to deal with the sagging headliner and upholestry peeling off of the A-pillars. :banghead:

All that said, I loved my M3 and had no major problems with it. BTW, take out your clutch delay valve if you haven't done it yet.

Another common bolt-on for the M3 that I felt made a big difference is swapping the intake manifold on OBD-2 M3s for earlier manifolds with bigger runners (325, 95M3, 525). I did this after my dyno and felt that the car pulled much better on the top end. Of course this is from my very inaccurate butt dyno.

Another thing to remember is that you have all kinds of fun things to look forward to in your M3. Airbag sensors, seatbelt latch sensors, wheel speed sensors, the whole cooling system, RSMs, RTABs and such will most likely need to be replaced soon. You'll have to continue to listen to the crappy stock stereo unless you've done something about it. You'll have to deal with the sagging headliner and upholestry peeling off of the A-pillars. :banghead:

All that said, I loved my M3 and had no major problems with it. BTW, take out your clutch delay valve if you haven't done it yet.

I haven't done the m50 manifold swap yet, in 1999 they worked out many sensor issues and I have already replaced my water pump for a metal one. I have the harmon kardon sound system that sounds better then most cars today.

I have already replaced my water pump for a metal one. I have the harmon kardon sound system that sounds better then most cars today.

Then you wasted perfectly good money that you could have used on something else. 99 cars already had the metal water pump impeller. Also the HK system is the one that we're referring to as being crappy. The mids in the doors always blow out plus the speaker ring surrounds crack off and the rest isn't anything to write home about.

Whoo boy.

BMW did switch to a metal-impeller water pump as a stopgap while they redesigned the composite one - but it's not a good pump to use. The extra weight of the metal impellers plays havoc with the bearings in the pump and while they don't fragment like the earlier ones do, they start to leak.

The best solution is the revised BMW water pump which has composite vanes - that and replacement (with the radiator!) every 60,000 miles. edit: a good summary is here.

http://jackassofalltrades.com/water-pump.html

My factory BMW metal impeller pump started to leak after 30,000 miles! :puke:

All factory E36 stereos were junk, but that's what they gave you the engine for. :)

i've got a car guy at the local bar who has a 99 M3 and claims that he has 310WHP and is still NA, frankly i dont think thats possible with an intake chip and exhaust, you guys that know E36s what do y'all think?

Whoo boy.

BMW did switch to a metal-impeller water pump as a stopgap while they redesigned the composite one - but it's not a good pump to use. The extra weight of the metal impellers plays havoc with the bearings in the pump and while they don't fragment like the earlier ones do, they start to leak.

The best solution is the revised BMW water pump which has composite vanes - that and replacement (with the radiator!) every 60,000 miles. edit: a good summary is here.

http://jackassofalltrades.com/water-pump.html

My factory BMW metal impeller pump started to leak after 30,000 miles! :puke:

All factory E36 stereos were junk, but that's what they gave you the engine for. :)


The engine wasn't that great either, we basically got a 325 engine on steroids rather than even a watered down euro motor. My factory metal impeller water pump lasted at least to 93K when I sold it, it was on it's second radiator and I'm sure that one was about to break anytime soon.

And it's VERY unlikely to get 310 whp out of a us spec S50/S52 unless it's super high compression and not very streetable/durable. Most full bolton cammed custom software 3.2 OBD1 engines are only pulling about 270 whp MAX.

I used to own a 95 M3 and i'm not gonna lie that car was a blast to drive.. Great handling, awesome looks (had the Motorsport Rims), and AWESOME seats!! However, the rx8 is def a better handling car and you would notice that right away.. As previously mentioned, the M3 has a bigger steering wheel and the response isn't as quick as the 8.. The M3 would def spank it in straight line performance though..

Well, let's be honest here - a new civic would spank us in straightline performance. :P

what doesn't nowadays? LOL Especially those poor souls that get the slower cars.