When does the RX-8 really start pulling in normal driving condition trying to pass or entering the freeway?

Now like you know this is not a problem near and around 7k-9k, but under that (and I haven't tried this because the saleman in the passenger seat) you would down shift to make it pick up speed. I've heard that down shifting the RX-8 from 5th to 4th under 5k-6k will not produce more speed. Should I skip 4th and double clucht to 3rd???

I know that entering the expressway with a full blast of speed 7k-9k rpms 60-80mph or more is not a problem, but what happens when you are sitting with cars behind you and a packed highway with little gap for entry?? Will 1st or 2nd 3k-4k get you there or would you hold 1st until 6k then shift to 2nd? Thats sounds abusive for a normal car but the Honda S2000 and RX-8 aren't normal cars with 8k and 9k rpm redlines.

I got to get rid of that weight in the passenger seat to see for myself.

If I am rolling between 10 and 20 in traffic I typically just keep it in 2nd. IMO downshifting to 4th is pointless. downshifting to 3rd is far better and if you are within limits just go to second to have some fun :)

downshifting to 3rd is far better

I second that. If I'm at around 40-50mph or so and I need to gun it, I downshift to 3rd.

However, if I'm cruising at about 75-80 or so and I need to drop, then I put it in 4th to pass.

michael

Why would you double clutch to shift from 5th to 3rd?

People still say "Double Clutch" ?

:rolleyes:

People still say "Double Clutch" ?

:rolleyes:

Have a better suggestion for what we're supposed to call it?

you want to double-clutch to 3rd (if from 6th to 5th) and it will haul major ass all the way to 93mph, when you hit the fuel cut.

4th pulls above 5500rpm, but not as hard. and not as satisfying.

Ike, you want to double-clutch because the RPMs difference is quite great. Esp. 6th to 3rd. If you just try to put it into 3rd directly, there's a lot of resistance due to synchros spinning up so much and it doesn't feel good/right. If you double-clutch, it slides right in like buttah!

When you live your life a quarter-mile at a time, you shouldn't be granny-shifting, when you're supposed to be double clutching.

40mph trying to pass I shift to second, above 55 3rd is the best gear for passing.

Have a better suggestion for what we're supposed to call it?

rev match?:dunno:

I dont know what you guys are talking about. 1st gear doesnt take you to 150mph?
lol

Yeah, I guess to answer his actual question, I would leave it in 1st if I am crawling through traffic (below 15mph) and anticipating to sneak into another lane in a hurry. If I was going to stay in my lane and crawling along, I would probably be in 2nd.

Depending on the conditions, if I need to pass fast, I drop it to 3rd and by the time I hit the top of 3rd I am doing 90 and it is time to slow back down. (btw this is on the highway)

Have a better suggestion for what we're supposed to call it?

How about, "something I need to get around to learning how to do." :mdrmed:


rev match?:dunno:

Rev matching is something else.


I might get this wrong, so please someone correct me if that's so.


E - C - T - W

This a diagram of your powertrain. E for engine, C for Clutch, T for Transmission, and W for wheels.



Rev matching is changing the speed of the engine. Visually:

(E) - C - T - W

Double clutching is matching the speed of the shaft between the clutch and the transmission:

E - C (-) T - W

Dude...you want me to get all algebraic on yo bizazz!! I'll bust outa muh slide ruler!! No one can out complicate a simple question like I can!!

Werup, thats fo realz yo home skillet...

It is kind of embarrassing at times when you are in the wrong/slow lane in a 30mph street and have no choice but to make a bunch of noise and floor the pedal just to get enough power out of the engine for a mere lane change. But I've come to accept it after 4 years.

If i were to make a shift like 6-3 5-3, i would just give the gas pedal a tap and bring the revs up, there is no need to double anything.

Double clutching is pointless.

If you are in 5th or 6th and want to downshift to 3rd, just give it some gas to bring the revs up. Goes in smooth, comes out strong.

Dude...you want me to get all algebraic on yo bizazz!! I'll bust outa muh slide ruler!! No one can out complicate a simple question like I can!!

Werup, thats fo realz yo home skillet...

No! No! I surrender! I surrender!


If i were to make a shift like 6-3 5-3, i would just give the gas pedal a tap and bring the revs up, there is no need to double anything.

That's what I do. Though I kinda would like to practice double clutching at some point to see if it actually does anything.

you want to double-clutch to 3rd (if from 6th to 5th) and it will haul major ass all the way to 93mph, when you hit the fuel cut.

4th pulls above 5500rpm, but not as hard. and not as satisfying.

Ike, you want to double-clutch because the RPMs difference is quite great. Esp. 6th to 3rd. If you just try to put it into 3rd directly, there's a lot of resistance due to synchros spinning up so much and it doesn't feel good/right. If you double-clutch, it slides right in like buttah!

As some others pointed out, double clutching is pointless in a modern car with synchros. Maybe with the only exception being downshifting into first gear when when it doesn't want to go into gear smoothly. If you know how to rev match properly downshifting from 5th to 3rd will be uneventful.

Mine starts pulling really excellent as I pass EVO's

Hm, theoretically if the cars on the freeway are moving around 74 mph, there's no problem staying in 6th gear and overtaking them around 83 mph range.

If leaving a 65 mph freeway but merging onto a freeway where the cars are doing 77 mph, it's enough to shift from 6 to 5th gear to pick up speed. Needing 3rd gear is really only for emergencies, which I can avoid for the most part by proper use of timing and situational awareness combined with familiarity with the road I'm on to plan the entries and exits.

If you're merging onto the freeway, and the lane you're in is stopped cold, and the lane to the left is moving 65 mph, you should wait until your lane starts picking up speed and the cars start spreading out a bit. I have used 1st gear before and taken it to redline in this situation once, but avoid that because no one on the road realizes just how fast I'm going to accelerate and if they cut in front of me at a bad time I'm done for.

The more upright the posture, the worse the driver side blindspot is. I find it quicker to stick my head out the window than to squint through two small areas of glass and figure out if a car is there when changing into the left lane.

It's hard to tell what you mean by packed freeway conditions.

This morning I needed to exit within 3/4 mile, but I had stayed towards the left lane because there were no large openings in the traffic. I was running late and it was around 5:30 AM already so traffic was pretty thick by then. In that situation I started signaling, and either sped up as necessary or better yet I might have slowed down to make the change (don't remember). 4th gear would be enough to speed up in that situation... 3rd gear would have been overkill as it wasn't an emergency.

70mph-3rd=smile

70 mph I drop into 2nd and go and shift into third at 85mph.

5000 rpm the power starts coming on.



hmmmm.

Double clutching is absolutely not useless in modern cars. Simply rev matching does nothing to accelerate the input shaft of the transmission leaving the synchros to do the work. It does offer some benefits in that the clutch takes less of a beating when you come off it. Matching revs while in neutral with your foot OFF THE CLUTCH PEDAL, will spool up the input shaft of the gear box and saves wear and tear on the clutch and other driveline components.

There are plenty of threads on this forum complaining about issues with synchros and the resultant grinding. Many (not neccessarily all) of these issues are a result of excessive wear on the synchros from downshifting with big gaps in the RPM ranges between the two gears. Had these operaters correctly performed a well timed (ie slow and precise) double de-clutched, rev matched (and if braking heel-toe'd) downshifts, these problems could be avoided.

Its not at all hard to do, it just takes a little practice. Its very rewarding and it allows you to grab gears easily without putting excessive wear and tear on the car. Furthermore, I'm sure all the people on this forum with road racing experience can tell you what happens when you really botch a downshift in a RWD car: Rear wheel lock up and insta-spin! There's a reason that any credible racing school will spend time teaching there students how to heel toe and double clutch. Its a track necessity, and very much worthwhile on the street.

Double clutching is absolutely not useless in modern cars. Simply rev matching does nothing to accelerate the input shaft of the transmission leaving the synchros to do the work. It does offer some benefits in that the clutch takes less of a beating when you come off it. Matching revs while in neutral with your foot OFF THE CLUTCH PEDAL, will spool up the input shaft of the gear box and saves wear and tear on the clutch and other driveline components.

There are plenty of threads on this forum complaining about issues with synchros and the resultant grinding. Many (not neccessarily all) of these issues are a result of excessive wear on the synchros from downshifting with big gaps in the RPM ranges between the two gears. Had these operaters correctly performed a well timed (ie slow and precise) double de-clutched, rev matched (and if braking heel-toe'd) downshifts, these problems could be avoided.

Its not at all hard to do, it just takes a little practice. Its very rewarding and it allows you to grab gears easily without putting excessive wear and tear on the car. Furthermore, I'm sure all the people on this forum with road racing experience can tell you what happens when you really botch a downshift in a RWD car: Rear wheel lock up and insta-spin! There's a reason that any credible racing school will spend time teaching there students how to heel toe and double clutch. Its a track necessity, and very much worthwhile on the street.

The reason for synchros is so you don't have to double clutch, they're supposed to absorb some of the abuse. The synchros problems people have are probably more a result of people not knowing how the rev match properly or grinding gears. I've driven two of my cars to over 100k miles and others with tends of thousands, with everything from trackdays, autox, and going to the strip, to lots of downshifting and hammering it on the highway. The only time I've ever double clutched was when I needed to downshift into 1st in a really low speed turn. I've never had to replace a synchro in any car I've owned. Maybe double clutching isn't useless in modern cars, but it's damn close.

Rev matching with the clutch pedal depressed does nothing to help the synchros. If you have the clutch depressed the drive from the motor to the gear box is severed and the input shaft begins to decelerate instantly.

I guess my point is, double clutching is not really any harder or slower than not double clutching, and its cheap insurance. Why not just do it? I find it enjoyable too! Think of it as a free reliability mod.

Its sad to me that doble clutching is a dying art. Footwork really is one fo the fundamental building blocks of being a good race car driver (not that I profess to be anything but an amature hack, but I can downshift nicely if nothing else). Certainly its no longer absolutely necessary in a modern prodution car. It is a legitimate skill however, which offers only upsides for the car and driver. I also find it very rewarding.

Ike, I have no doubt that you take care of your equipment and have gone many happy double clutch free miles. As an evo owner, you also have good taste ;) I don't mean this whole double clutching thing as a criticism of you or your driving. That said, its nice piece of the driver's craft that I'd rather not see go extinct. So kiddies, learn to double clutch and make me and your gear box a little happier.

Rev matching with the clutch pedal depressed does nothing to help the synchros. If you have the clutch depressed the drive from the motor to the gear box is severed and the input shaft begins to decelerate instantly.

I guess my point is, double clutching is not really any harder or slower than not double clutching, and its cheap insurance. Why not just do it? I find it enjoyable too! Think of it as a free reliability mod.

Its sad to me that doble clutching is a dying art. Footwork really is one fo the fundamental building blocks of being a good race car driver (not that I profess to be anything but an amature hack, but I can downshift nicely if nothing else). Certainly its no longer absolutely necessary in a modern prodution car. It is a legitimate skill however, which offers only upsides for the car and driver. I also find it very rewarding.

Ike, I have no doubt that you take care of your equipment and have gone many happy double clutch free miles. As an evo owner, you also have good taste ;) I don't mean this whole double clutching thing as a criticism of you or your driving. That said, its nice piece of the driver's craft that I'd rather not see go extinct. So kiddies, learn to double clutch and make me and your gear box a little happier.


Now that I think about it more rev matching is going to preserve gears and bearings and not really synchros. I knew that considering I said synchros are there to take the abuse... Though I'd be curious to know just how quickly the input/lay shaft decelerates, in the second or less it takes to rev match and shift I would bet it's not a whole lot.

However, double clutching is absolutely slower than not double clutching. Especially if you consider that double clutching is used on the upshift as well. We'll drag race in identical cars, you double clutch and I won't, I bet I win ;) Why not do it? Because I find rowing through the gears as quickly as possible more satisfying than double clutching. I just don't think with todays synchromesh gearboxes it's going to help much in the reliability department and as long as you drive fairly smoothly synchros will last a long long time.

I learned to double clutch when I was 15 and doing my first trackday. It was somewhat useful for big downshifts but obviously would serve little use on the upshift unless you're just trying to be extra gentle. I guess I look at double clutching as more of a former necessity rather than an artform. Now if you want to consider heel and toe as another form of double clutching I agree with you.

The thing that I really find sad is how few people in the generations after me know how to drive a manual. I was probably in that last group that learned to drive when most small cars had a manual. Even 16 years ago I was the only one of my friends that learned to drive on a manual, but most of them were taught how to drive an MT even if they didn't learn on it.

Now that I've said all this you do really I'm going to break some synchros this week, right? :uhh: :icon_no2: :lol:

Now that I think about it more rev matching is going to preserve gears and bearings and not really synchros. I knew that considering I said synchros are there to take the abuse... Though I'd be curious to know just how quickly the input/lay shaft decelerates, in the second or less it takes to rev match and shift I would bet it's not a whole lot.

However, double clutching is absolutely slower than not double clutching. Especially if you consider that double clutching is used on the upshift as well. We'll drag race in identical cars, you double clutch and I won't, I bet I win ;) Why not do it? Because I find rowing through the gears as quickly as possible more satisfying than double clutching. I just don't think with todays synchromesh gearboxes it's going to help much in the reliability department and as long as you drive fairly smoothly synchros will last a long long time.

I learned to double clutch when I was 15 and doing my first trackday. It was somewhat useful for big downshifts but obviously would serve little use on the upshift unless you're just trying to be extra gentle. I guess I look at double clutching as more of a former necessity rather than an artform. Now if you want to consider heel and toe as another form of double clutching I agree with you.

The thing that I really find sad is how few people in the generations after me know how to drive a manual. I was probably in that last group that learned to drive when most small cars had a manual. Even 16 years ago I was the only one of my friends that learned to drive on a manual, but most of them were taught how to drive an MT even if they didn't learn on it.

Now that I've said all this you do really I'm going to break some synchros this week, right? :uhh: :icon_no2: :lol:

Your absolutely right about double clutching being completely useless and stupid on upshifts. I never have and never will do that. Its only useful on downshifts if you heel toe (or if not braking just blipping the gas), simply doing the clutch end of things does nothing without blipping the accelerator pedal while in neutral with the clutch out. Its funny because I don't use the clutch at all in my race for the most part except when starting. Its a straight cut, non-synchro box so you pretty much just throw it in to neutral, blip and throw it in gear, all sans clutch. Conceptually though, its the same as double clutching. You can't even get it into gear on a downshift without blipping in neutral! Of course the positive side of a gear box like that is you can upshift just by lifting off the throttle and flicking the gear lever like a toggle switch, also without using the clutch. Very entertaining!

Most well engineered modern cars are built with robust synchromesh, so unless your a complete bonehead, they probably will hold up for a good long time. The rx8 synchros aren't super hot. I bought my car used with 8k on it and the second gear synchro was pretty roughed. If you try to downshift into second with out double clutching on my car its pretty much not going to happen. As its a "wear" item, the dealer doesn't give a shit. Since I double clutch anyways, its not an issue for me. I'm just worried about when I eventually sell it!

From a stop how do you enter the expressway, 1st and 2nd through 6 and then dwon shift to 3rd then back up through 6? You got to build rpms right, I just graudually shift through the smooth 6 spd but wonder what would hapen if I could down shift, but I have the salesman in the passeger seat. hOW MUCH uPPUMM would I feel?

The way I'm doing it I feel the electric car feel smooth but no torque. I've always wondered what a downshift would do.

From a stop how do you enter the expressway, 1st and 2nd through 6 and then dwon shift to 3rd then back up through 6? You got to build rpms right, I just graudually shift through the smooth 6 spd but wonder what would hapen if I could down shift, but I have the salesman in the passeger seat. hOW MUCH uPPUMM would I feel?

The way I'm doing it I feel the electric car feel smooth but no torque. I've always wondered what a downshift would do.

I don't think I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?

70mph or under on the highway and I put it in 3rd to pass. In the MX-5 I just leave it in 6th

Just put it in "R" for Race.

1.3L

I don't think I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?

How do you enter the expressway from a stop while in 1st gear? Do you run through the gears and then down shift to peak rpms, bust on into the expressway. Several sceniros were this could happen. Cars are in front of you entering one at a time or there is a yeild sign present at Y intersection and cars are coming.

Or do just hold the each gear to redline. Which picks up speed the fastest?

As for double cluchting others can do what they please, I like dbl cluchting to downshift.

I don't think I understand your question. Can you rephrase it?

How do you enter the expressway from a stop while in 1st gear? Do you run through the gears and then down shift to peak rpms, bust on into the expressway. Several sceniros were this could happen. Cars are in front of you entering one at a time or there is a yeild sign present at Y intersection and cars are coming.

Or do just hold the each gear to redline. Which picks up speed the fastest?

As for double cluchting others can do what they please, I like dbl cluchting to downshift.

I still don't quite know how to answer you, but the rx8 is pretty much useless under 5k rpm. 5-6k is still not really in the meat of the power band, but its useable. 7k-9k is where it really picks up. I guess evaluate the situation and see if you can find a gear that puts you into the sweet spot of the power band.

Below 15mph I'm in 1st 15 or above I'm in second. 3rd is definately your bet for passiing. Def get rid of the salesman and give it a spin.

like any manual car you downshift for more acceleration. on the highway, below 70mph, use 3rd, above it use 4th. 4th is good to 130, then you go back into 6th and just cruise until you see the next cop.

I rarely go through all the gears, i go 20ish in first, floor second, and then drop into 4th or sixth. 2nd redlined is over the speedlimit almost everywhere in the US. I always get 21-22mpg. doesn't matter if I granny or not, t's get to overdrive as fast as possible and keep it there. On long trips I've gotten up to 27mpg. assuming you don;t do the downshifting fun and can keep it @ 75ish in 6th. that's the sweetspot.

Driving home today and experiencing packed conditions, I thought of this thread and watched the RPM to better address the original question. Situation was as follows:

Merged onto another freeway. The slow lanes are going 22 mph. Fast lanes are going 40. Once a hole opened up, 2nd gear had enough immediate pull to change lanes and accelerate; this was between 3000-4000 rpm. So, no you do not need to redline.

When does the RX-8 really start pulling in normal driving condition trying to pass or entering the freeway?

Now like you know this is not a problem near and around 7k-9k, but under that (and I haven't tried this because the saleman in the passenger seat) you would down shift to make it pick up speed. I've heard that down shifting the RX-8 from 5th to 4th under 5k-6k will not produce more speed. Should I skip 4th and double clucht to 3rd???

I know that entering the expressway with a full blast of speed 7k-9k rpms 60-80mph or more is not a problem, but what happens when you are sitting with cars behind you and a packed highway with little gap for entry?? Will 1st or 2nd 3k-4k get you there or would you hold 1st until 6k then shift to 2nd? Thats sounds abusive for a normal car but the Honda S2000 and RX-8 aren't normal cars with 8k and 9k rpm redlines.

I got to get rid of that weight in the passenger seat to see for myself.

If I'm in 6th and going 60 or more, I drop two gears to 4th - if below 45, I go three gears to 3rd. The best powerband is 5K to 8.5K ... shift to put the car there.

I cant believe I read this whole thread !